Rethinking Hell with Daniel Sinclair
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2024
- Did you know that the idea of hell as popularly thought of today-with the dark, cavernous cave full of burning flames and demons torturing pour souls-is based more on the imagery in Dante’s 14th-century poem "Inferno" than it is on the Bible? What if the biblical concept of hell isn't what we think it is?
In this livestream we're talking with Christian thinker Daniel Sinclair about the pros and cons of Conditional Immortality, which is the belief that eternal life is only granted to people who are saved. Most mainstream Christian traditions believe that unsaved souls are also eternal and will exist and suffer in “hell” literally forever. Conditional Immortality instead believes that the Bible teaches that unsaved souls will ultimately cease to exist at some point and in some fashion. In other words, heaven is forever, hell is temporary.
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FYI Several viewers have asked if I brought up the subject of conditional immortality (annihilationism) on my channel because that is my own view. The answer is no. I invited Daniel on to explain the idea so we could learn what it's all about. And as I told him during our chat, I would need to study Scripture for myself on this issue and do some testing before I could consider abandoning the traditional perspective in favor of CI.
-RLS
I have so much respect for Solberb being humble enough here to really listen and try to hear the CI view from scripture. Solberg has been pivotal in helping defend biblical roots of Christianity against hyper-Torahism and anti-Paul views etc, and now he is showing openness to a view that actually holds up firmly from scripture different to his own view. Very commendable. Thank you Rob! Bless ya brother
the you will be tortured for all eternity is just another demonic human invented heresy. How you get eternal life from the second death makes no sense.
That passage in Revelation 14 continues those cast into the lake of fire have no rest day or night.
It's a hyperbolic apacolyptic vision. Jesus said soul and body is destroyed in final punishment in Matthew. That wasn't a vision. Jesus in marks Gospel quotes isiah 66:24 to describe Gehenna. Again not vision. An image of a wasteland of dead bodies. Even christ image was an image of death. The lake of fire is interpreted for us as the 2nd death. A phrase that predates the NT.
@@ThemCoversMB SDA? Jesus has the power over your souls as well as over your bodies, and to punish both in hell.
Revelation 14 says there will no rest day or night, and that the smoke from their torment will rise forever. Look in Isaiah 34 for similar language that refers to the smoke rising forever. Since we know that smoke isn't still rising over Edom, we can conclude pretty easily that this is an idiom, and probably refers to something that is known by all and never forgotten. Having no rest day or night doesn't suggest something that is truly everlasting. It just means they won't have rest until they meet their demise.
@@davidreinker5600 Just another heretic
Revelation 14:10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
@@salpezzino7803 Are you calling me a heretic? Could you be more cryptic?
Matthew 25:31-36 says, "Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed. . . And these will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL life.” Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement no rest day or night makes no sense.
Be careful of presupposing English word meanings onto Greek New Testament text. The word translated as “eternal” or “everlasting” is g0166 αἰώνιος aiōnios, meaning ‘unto the age’ or ‘age enduring.’ The root word is g0165 αἰών aiōn, meaning ‘an age’ (as a period of time).
LOL, I honestly laughed out loud when you said your viewers can get kind of "rowdy". 😂
We be drinkin too much He-brews 🍺🥴🍻😂😂😂
@@kimartist LOL, nowadays my He-brews is strictly my morning dark roast. 😂
@@e.m.8094 Same. And pass the pumpkin spice cold foam creamer while you're at it 🤣🤣🤣
What God's holiness demanded, His love provided. We must allow God to speak for Himself which we find in His Word. Also regarding atheists, I have listened to a lot of them and their biggest hurdle is metaphysics....miracles, Jesus walking on water, Jesus born of a virgin. These are what I've found are their issues.
I think if we think God is unfair in Judgements we become judges of God, if we downplay judgements no matter how harsh it is or seems we downplay God (sounds almost new age to me).
Amen. The big problem is many people have learned the traditional view and have a few proof texts that don't say what they think it says like eternal punishment meaning eternal conscious torment. And they go to those texts alone rather than something like the book of Romans which never mentions hell but talks about death over and over and over again. That is the definitive book of Christian doctrine not the book of revelation. Revelation is a book of apocalyptic symbolism which is, as the guy has said, notoriously difficult to understand but completely incoherent if taken literally in many places.
2 Corinthians 2:14,15..only 2 OPTIONS..the perishing go from death to death…the saved go from life to
life..Got Torah Got Truth
I'm afraid I have to agree with you on this one, Harry.
@@kimartist be afraid..be very afraid…it refreshing to see that someone knows how to study scripture so you can come to the truth and not just blindly follow the crowd…
Got Torah Got Truth
Excellent Presentation
It is interesting that a much higher percentage of people believe in the existence of heaven than believe in the existence of hell. According to the Bible, though, hell is just as real as heaven. The Bible clearly and explicitly teaches that hell is a real place to which the wicked/unbelieving are sent after death. We have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23). The just punishment for that sin is death (Romans 6:23). Since all of our sin is ultimately against God (Psalm 51:4), and since God is an infinite and eternal Being, the punishment for sin, death, must also be infinite and eternal. Hell is this infinite and eternal death which we have earned because of our sin.
The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).
The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God and the lordship of Jesus Christ, the Savior they rejected (Psalm 76:10; Philippians 2:10-11). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Praise God that, through Jesus, we can escape this eternal fate (John 3:16, 18, 36).
That's because multiple terms get mistranslated into one term "hell". There was sheol (which got translated to "hell") and there is the lake of fire (which got translated to "hell"). Sheol is cast into the lake of fire.
Great interview. Been thinking about CI and I agree...the Scriptures teach that the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment in hell.
Satan loves your view, he can sell sin easier
@@user-uo8kb5rv7n eternal torment is eternal death, the opposite of life
@@Stuggie32 I think the OT "eternal" might better be translated as "permanent". And I do think there will be judgment and punishment but can you imagine you're in the New Jerusalem knowing that your child or parent is suffering torment for billions, trillions, quadrillions of years? And isn't hell cast into the lake of fire (ie destroyed)?
I’m so excited you are doing this topic!!
Conditional immortality is not as radical as some might think. CI Christians and ECT (eternal conscious torment) Christians agree more about Hell than we disagree. We all agree:
--Hell is where the lost are punished for their sins
--It’s a place of awful torment
--Every lost sinner will get what he/she deserves there
--No one who goes there has any hope of being saved
--Jesus died to save us from going there
That's not true. They don't all agree. The non-eternal conscious torment side believes that these people physically die, are later resurrected back into their physical bodies, and then both body and soul are destroyed (the second death) after judgment. Their life is completely gone, no conscious existence.
This comment addresses the question of finite transgression vs. infinite punishing. My transgressions may NOT be finite, because the scars and mutilations that my transgression is causing in the heart, soul and even the body of the other person may be lasting forever. If that person receives eternal life in Christ, he/she is a new creature, and all things have become new (2Co 5:17). In that case, they are received by Christ. He still bears the scars of His crucifixion.
Thanks for the interesting video and presenting some new ideas. What we may want to consider is how much the Father loves His Son and the fact that the Father had to watch prideful and ungrateful people torture His Son to death while Jesus was working to give them the Father's gift of eternal life.
How you would feel as a parent if your only child was hated, mocked, and abused, while trying to save the people who were abusing him? Personally, I get weary of people thinking they are more just than God and that their fellow man doesn't deserve eternity in hell simply because they chose the wrong lifestyle. It is this attitude that is driving CI.
We are eternal spirits, which have a soul, and resides in a clay pot body. It is because of the love that the Father has for His Son, and the magnitude of the rejected gift, that justifies the Father's destruction of an unrepentant person's BODY, the shame that the unrepentant SOUL will experience for all eternity, and the separation from God that the unrepentant SPIRIT will be required to endure, forever.
Rev 14:11nasb, "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Where there is eternal smoke, there is eternal fire, hence, the gnashing of teeth. I agree that the hail, fire, and brimstone message is not a good introduction to the gospel but how about if we talk about how much the Father loves Jesus, the Son who would rather die than disobey His Father.
I feel like our Christians influencers only want to talk about the love that the Father has for us, which is important, but it's helpful to see the bigger picture. Blessings to each of you.
'I have additional points that I could submit' - please don't TIA
Any new ideas are from Satan
What a great conversation! Will need to watch it a few times over. I've recently thought that our lives as believers are from death to everlasting life. That would lead me to think that non-believers are just dead in their sin. Certainly not what God wants for them, but so be it and shake the dust off your shoes if they don't receive the message. But maybe the conversation with unbelievers needs to be more of a conversation of what having a relationship with Jesus during their life brings - joy, peace, love, patience, kindness, etc., and with that brings in the end as eternal life.
Not sure why this did not occur to me during the live stream, but I have been thinking about it. In Matt 25, Jesus says that the everlasting fire was prepared for the devil and his angels.
The devil is no mortal, he is a spiritual adversary who will never die of natural means and has no body to kill. Why on earth would God design Satan's prison to be temporary? The place of eternal punishment has to be just that if it is designed to contain Satan forever.
I didn't become a Christian until I was 39. I am now 76, and I'm only recently thinking about the eternal suffering in a place called he'll. Every church I ever attended and every pastor I ever discovered and followed on UA-cam, all have taught eternal punishment in the spirit in he'll. I have even heard the statement that Jesus taught more about he'll than heaven. I never questioned this teaching until I started listening to an extremely well-known Seventh Day Adventist, where I first heard a contrary teaching. Apparently, from what I understand, they believe in something called soul sleep (I believe). I have listened to some of his different teachings about Judgement Day during which the sins would be burned up and destroyed, and the good would receive rewards, or crowns. Then the sinner would no longer exist, in any way, while the followers of Christ would have eternal life. I'm trying to grasp this new concept, for me. I really want to be sure that the non believing people would just cease to exist because I have loved ones who were not Christian and have died. But, I don't want to lead an unbeliever to hell by wrongly interpreting the Bible! I'm a born again believer so I'm looking forward to spending eternity in heaven. I just don't want to give the green light to a sinner by saying that they won't have to worry because there will be no eternal consequences. What a dilemma!
SDA is completely heretical, a cult, so their teachings are not a place to go for solid Bible-based Christian teaching. That being said, I thought the man in the video sounded like an SDA in disguise. Very disturbing. 2000 years of Christian teaching on hell & then a cult like SDA comes along, infiltrates colleges & seminaries & suddenly hell is no longer a solid Christian doctrine? Insidious 😱
Soul sleep or state of the dead, in other words, is not a thing. That is a doctrine that SDA have taught since Ellen White. Ecclesiastes 9:5, "The dead know nothing," is one of the main scriptures they proof text to support this belief. But when read in context of the scripture, "The dead know nothing," has to do with "while living,... under the sun," goodness, wickedness, riches, earthly toil...etc. So, when you die, you know nothing. All your reward was when you were alive under the sun. These are wise words of Solomon, to appreciate/enjoy things while you are alive on this earth. It is not to build a doctrine on soul sleep. Paul, in the New Testament said, "To be absent from the body, is the be present with the Lord."
"1For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.
6So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. 9So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him. 10For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body. 2 Corinthians 5:1-10
still not a Christian
SDAs have some bad doctrine, but they are correct about the lost perishing.
Just as we can't lump ECT people in with Muslims, we also can't lump all CI people in with SDAs.
@@FRN2013 I see you fell for Satan's snare,
He does snare the weak and ignorant, so you are in bad company
Ellen G White loves you
I was raised CI and changed my mind by reading the Bible. Too many absolutely clear texts from Jesus and Revelation. When I presented this I was often told "I don't want anything to do with God if that's true". I say that just magnifies what Jesus suffered in our place to save us.
I guess my struggle when I read comments like the one you made above is it always seems apparent that the person hasn't actually watched the video, because in the video I'm pretty sure they make a strong case that the idea of eternal conscious torment is not accurate. So what I would really be curious about is not how you came to a different conclusion many years ago, but how you specifically counter the arguments they offer in this video
Yeah, talk about fake garbage. @@educational4434
@@educational4434 Revelation 14 which was referenced, but not the whole passage is clear. Read to the end of the third angel's message. No rest day or night? Definitely not punishED and over with. The Rich man and Lazarus story is another and of course all the references of Jesus. As far as death goes, we tend to make definitions based on our own ideas. Death is used many ways in the Bible. Only some are in this video.
Could I be wrong? Praise the Lord!
Could I be right? Praise the Lord! In my mind only Jesus, being God could atone for our sins during His few hours on the cross. He is called the Lamb sacrificed before the creation of the world.
The Plan of Salvation was not Plan B for creation. Creation was for the Plan of Salvation.
@@kennethjacobs4824 Revelation 14 is referring to those who take the mark of the beast (Apollyon). That's a very different situation.
My personal speculation as to why those people are irredeemable and unforgivable, is that I believe the mark of the beast may be angelic genetic material that the world is offered in exchange for allegiance to the beast.
And in taking this genetic material into their bodies, they would then become hybrid beings. Part angelic being. And this would make them one of Satan's angels, and as we know hell was not created for people, it was created for Satan and his angels.
And this explains why they would be irredeemable, because salvation was not offered to the rebel angelic factions. It was offered to human beings, but if you take on angelic genetic material, becoming a hybrid, then you are no longer human, but rather, transhuman, and no longer have access to salvation. And where Satan and his angels go, you go also, as you have joined their ranks.
@@kennethjacobs4824the parable of lazerus and the rich man isn't about final punishment. Final punishment is after the ressurection when Jesus returns. The parable took place immediately after death. I think drawing conclusions out of revelation is a bit risky. Because it's apacolyptic visions. The real conclusions are drawn from the interpretations that it gives or old testiment refferences. Here's an other example in revelation there's a blood thirsty harlot and it says and they see the smoke of her burning and they stand far off in fear of her torment and then it says the smoke of her burning ascendeth forever.The interpretation given to us of the vision is babylon the great city will be thrown down in violence and will be no more. The lake of fire is interpreted as the 2nd death.Which makes perfect sense with the countless text describing a 2nd death. Jesus quotes isiah 66:24 in marks Gospel to describe final punishment. Which lays out an image of a wasteland of dead bodies. My personal go to verses is the ones that actually point back to past annihilations orchestrated by God as to anticipate what's to come. Like in luke where it says just as lot left soddom it rained fire and brimstone and destroyed them all. It will be just like this at the son of man's reveal. Or in 2nd Peter where it says soddom and Gomorrah being reduced ashes and condemned to was made an Example of what's coming for the ungodly. In the same book it says by same word as the flood fire is reserved for the day of judgement and destruction of the ungodly. Now we can understand why Jesus was our substitute. The outpouring of God's wrath placed on Christ was to be put violently put him to death. How do we call Christ our substitute under the ect model if according to ect the risen lost are never put to death like Christ? Jesus said life and immortality was brought to light through the gospel In 2nd timothy which is consistent with Christ saying soul and body are destroyed in final punishment in Matthew ch 10. And man became a living soul when man received the breath of life according Gen ch 2 so we know a soul or being a soul is what means to have any life experience at all.
I think an aspect that is missed is that hell was created for fallen angels, not man. But it would be unjust if man did not recieve the same punishment for the same rebellion.
Literally mentioned it right after I posted.
I think that "the mark" of the beast (Apollyon the fallen angel) is likely angelic genetic material that is given to mankind, and then those humans who take this mark are essentially hybrid beings, or transhuman, so part angel, and because these are no longer qualified for redemption and are part of Satan's angels now, genetically speaking, they go to the place designed for Satan and his angels
@@coyote8346 Amen, I have often wondered about people contaminated with Nephilim DNA & whatever else propelled that whole crowd? The prophecy that God will one day destroy the wicked AND the entire earth with a consuming fire to me speaks of something much deeper & far darker than mere ordinary everyday sins of commission & omission. I have literally seen people agonizing over the fact that they told Auntie Gertrude they loved her new outfit/new hairdo when they really hated it 👀 Good grief. That ain't it kids 🤦🏻♀️
@@educational4434 I agree. I didn't see your comment before posting (I hadn't refreshed the page yet), but I think you explained it much better than I. We're playing checkers when God is playing quantum physics to infinity & beyond. No one is going to end up in hell who doesn't deserve to be there, but we also have to consider that not everyone comprehends the woowoo scary stuff about Nephilim, etc. People seem to think there's only humans with human-level foibles & a few ethereal nether-worlders "out there somewhere" & never the twain shall mix. Incredible when, as you say, we've got this whole Al/transhumanism mess happening right here under our noses. It can't end well.
@@kimartist 100%. You nailed it with your thoughts here. I have a few go-to Christian educational resources that I listen to regarding these topics, and I must say, the majority of believers appear to be sitting ducks as they are not informed of these topics. And because so many of them believe in a pre-tribulational rapture and feel that they won't be here anyways they don't even think about it.
I think they're going to be very disappointed when that doesn't happen and they realize they didn't prepare to go through that time of testing.
Often times they'll answer by saying that we are not appointed to God's wrath, but they fail to under that the majority of the great tribulation is not God's wrath, it's Satan's wrath, with God's wrath poured out at the end. Signs are given to us so that we understand where we are on the timeline and prepare for those days. They are not given so that we know when a rapture is about to occur.
I think that likely has a lot to do with the great falling away that the scriptures say will occur. When millions of professing believers understand that they're not going to be taken out of tribulation but will instead go through tribulation, they may be disenchanted and disillusioned.
Prof. Solberg, you continue to have my respect as someone who genuinely and thoughtful engages other views. This conversation on conditional immortality was solid. Thank you.
If only blood can pay for sin, how can pergatory pay for sin?
You either pay with your own blood or someone else's is what I understand.
From what I understand about the Catholic doctrine about purgatory is that Christ's blood atones for the eternal consequences of sin (hell), while purgatory is our atonement for temporal consequences of sin that we didn't get in this life (jail, prison, disease, etc). Basically, if you commit a sin but nothing bad happens to you because of it in this life before you die, you get that consequence in purgatory as a part of temporal justice.
Also, purgatory exists to help us move on from our attachments to sin. It's part of our perfection, which scripture does talk about, but doesn't define how long it takes, nor is there a dogma about how long purgatory lasts. Most Protestants do agree in a perfection that happens after we die, and scripture speaks to a trying by fire that will consume our bad works and refine our good works, and some may be saved as one who passes through fire.
I could be wrong, that's just my understanding about the teachings as an outsider to Catholicism.
@@bugslayerprime7674I’m not Catholic, but I’ve studied it quite a bit. I think you have a fair explanation of purgatory.
Purgatory is not where you “pay” for sin, if it exists, it is where “purgation” happens. That means basically a purging process. I have no commitment to the doctrine either way. If it’s true, ok, if not, ok. 🤷🏻♂️
The Bible presents the destiny of the righteous: permanent life (no death) vs the destiny of the wicked: permanent death. I believe that this is the correct understanding because of resurrection. The natural death of the wicked (through age, disease or violence) is temporary: they will be resurrected to face judgment. That’s why revelation refers to the ‘second death.’ The righteous will be granted to eat of the tree of life forever.
I don’t think we can blame ECT on Dante’, that’s much too simplistic.
Exactly, because where did Dante get the idea in the 1st place? 😅
Augustine would be more accurate
We can blame ECT on Jesus. He said so.
There are all kinds of verses in the OT about that day of the Lord. When God's judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants WILL learn righteousness. The world will punished for their evil Isaiah 13:11 kjv, causing it to cease, the haughtiness not the people. V 12 a man (all, common man) will be made more precious than fine gold. God is a "refiners" fire.
1 Cor 15 says that all in Adam bringing death, will also be made alive. The context is not verse 1. Those folks saved by faith are already alive. They stand now, and are seated now in heavenly places Ephesians and Colossians. In the end they believe by sight as did Thomas and Paul; all will bow to glory of God and they will not be forced. God asked a question, Is His arm too short to save? No.
God will wash away the filth, the dross, they will be melted, Isaiah ch 4, Ezekiel 22. In Is ch 33 there are everlasting burnings and devouring fire. So, yes the results are permanent. In proverbs God tries the hearts like silver in a fire, the impurities removed. Therefore no one is eliminated or destroyed. A grand beautiful reunion is coming for the whole earth. Mothers no longer have to worry about their sons and daughters.
Jesus said born of the Spirit as John 3:5, John says only those with the Spirit can be raised as 3:13, and as 3:16 unbelievers perish, Jesus says believers as 5:24 get eternal life.
Well brother, the scriptures are very consistent in the messaging of eternal life and eternal punishment even explicitly stated in the OT. How do you reconcile Daniel 12?
Daniel 12
New King James Version
Prophecy of the End Time
12 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
👉👉👉Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.👈👈👈
I believe that English Bible translators contribute to confusion and obfuscation of this issue with their translations. Three words are translated as “hell” in scripture. First in Hebrew we see h7585 Sheol, meaning a/the grave (the state of death). In Greek we see g0086 ἅ́δης hadēs, meaning a/the grave (used in the Septuagint to translate Sheol); And g1067 γέεννα geenna - of Hebrew origin: valley of the son of Hinnom (a valley south of Jerusalem). We should be careful of importing Greek pagan presuppositions into scripture.
The new teachings of the church is a scary thing. There are people that are in the church that are not saved, that are going to hell. If your heart isn’t changed, your life hasn’t been transformed, you claim Christ. Then I ask which one. I’m disappointed in the professor for saying his mind isn’t made up on the doctrine of hell. If you doubt the doctrine, then you reject Jesus Christ teaching on it. If you don’t teach hell, the doctrine of repentance, which is evident of a transformed life. Then you have a good possibility of being a goat.
I agree. It's terrifying how many are turning aside to fables. And I was thinking the same. That denying eternal hell comes dangerously close to blaspheming Christ's work on the cross. Of course saying that will make me "divisive" to some. But truth divides. All this let's just agree to disagree is worldly junk that isn't biblical. Paul would be run out of most churches with pitch forks today if he showed up to preach.
Rob is not doubting the judgement, but we must be clear on what the scriptures teach.
The word hell itself is problematic because there are at least three different Greek words that have been inexactly translated into one word, hell.
We are not doubting the the existence of the lake of fire or the jerk in which Jesus said God could destroy the soul. We are debating of destroy in the biblical context consumes the unrighteousness like chaff (as Jesus said) or if it keeps burning because the unrepentant are forever regenerated or given eternal life in bodies that suffer pain but are not consumed.
@@heather602. We are not denying the eternity of the punishment, but its nature. Is it eternal punishMENT (death) or punishING (eternal existence with suffering)?
For comparison, when Jesus secured eternal redemption for us once for all, it's he still redeeming us constantly or did he do it once for all time?
Why do you think it is eternal torment? Only because of a verse from Revelation? That's a poor starting place hermeneutically. Can you justify torment from outside Revelation besides the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, another symbolic story?
What is Jesus's teaching on hell? Seems like destruction to me.
@@wholereason
I understand the interpretations in the Greek and Hebrew. Hell fire has been preached in older generations. The old time church preached it brother. Look at Charles Spurgeon and the old church fathers. Don’t let Satan convince you other wise. Just like the generation of Noah. Don’t ever doubt that the lake of fire is everlasting. As for as the non believers or those that doubt its part of the great Apostasy in the last days. In the 1970 around the mid to late 90 percent of America claimed to be Christian’s. Today that number is around 55 percent. We my friend are experiencing last days. The problem with the preachers today is there afraid they are going to loose their show. Hell my brother isn’t a show. While we are alive we have a chance to repent and keep people out of hell fire. Take this opportunity to spread the word. Time is short.
Jesus for sure says repent or perish!
I'm not sure anyone commented on Matthew 25:46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.” The word eternal means "without end, never to cease, everlasting." The same exact word "eternal" is used for both LIFE and PUNISHMENT. There are so many other scriptures that say the same thing. So, I guess I don't get it? I feel like many people are coming to the belief of CI through an emotional lens. Instead of taking what scripture plainly says. They are rationalizing the idea of hell, moving from ECT to CI, to make it sound more palatable. To me, that diminishes the reality and severity of sin, and the truth that God is pure and cannot look upon sin. If man rejects that pure, sinless, amazing sacrifice of Jesus Christ, I think God has the right to bring justice how He sees fit and has spoken of. John 3:16 does in fact speak of a loving, redeeming God, but if you read further, you will read that we are judged already. He is love and He is just!
Amen
If God is too pure to look upon sin, why would he keep it around for all eternity and not eliminate it?
Death is an eternal punishment.
Augustine said:
"Then as to the award of death for any great crime, do the laws reckon the punishment to consist in the brief moment in which death is inflicted, or in this, that the offender is eternally banished from the society of the living? And just as the punishment of the first death cuts men off from this present mortal city, so does the punishment of the second death cut men off from that future immortal city. For as the laws of this present city do not provide for the executed criminal's return to it, so neither is he who is condemned to the second death recalled again to life everlasting."
Yes, annihilationism/CI is a fallacious SDA (Seventh-Day Adventist) teaching that has subtly wormed its way into the mainstream church. This is why I support ministries such as Academy Apologia, Answering Adventism & Examining Adventism that are sounding the alarm against SDA & its unChristian teachings.
@@leavingnc Idk, what do you do with scriptures like Revelation 14:11 "The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name?”
To look upon sin is more of an expression of not condoning it, not accepting it... you get my meaning... But, He certainly provides for the forgiveness of it, and redemption for those who seek after it. For one thing, God is omnipresent. He sees all. He was in the garden of Eden when Adam and Eve sinned, He saw the evil of Sodom, etc.
@@kimartist me too... and Former Adventist Fellowship
Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of the unquenchable fire reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he will send his angels, and they will gather all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire, and that he will pronounce the condemnation "Depart from me , you cursed, into the eternal fire."
Matt. 5:22, 29. 10:28, 13:42, 50 Mark 9.43:48. Matt. 13::41-42. Matt. 25-41
The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of Hell and its eternity. Immediately after death, the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of Hell, "eternal fire"
The chief punishment of Hell is eternal separation from God.
I love this "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of Hell" this goes against Rob's Torahism and it doesnt matter to them.
Rob's Boy claims "Rethinking" - "Everyone thinks they are right" ----- "But, I think" --- He also claimed the "Church had it wrong for 1500 years."
SDA, Millerites, Mormons, JW's, Hebrew/Jewish Roots and every fringe cult ALL make this same claim.
Peace
@@salpezzino7803 "Rethinking" is a buzzword for "deconstructionism," a feminist/Marxist/nihilist, etc. way of dismantling literature/texts that they feel are too "traditional"/too "Western." Translation: They use it to make words/texts mean what they want them to mean & not what they've meant for 1000s of years... 🚩🚩🚩👈🧐
@@kimartist Amen, and your Boy gives this guy a platform to push his lies, and we see in the comments Rob defending them
@@salpezzino7803 My "boy" has only made 3 comments thus far & not one of them is a defense.
@@kimartist amen. Who is your Boy?
Thank you for posting this today! I've come to the same conclusion. Yes, I've read Edward Fudge's smaller book. Also, I'm currently reading Invisible Dimension by Matthew D. Arnold. He's been on podcasts lately and brings some great information,
especially about Old Testament terms about the afterlife. It's a bit of a textbook. He would be a great guest, yes, he's a Christian in England. Very studied. Again, thank you! -Linda
Why Quote atheist? C.I. sounds like more twisting of Scripture (Did God say? The 1st lie from Satan) All sin is against God (Psalm 51:4) and He has prepared Hell for His Glory (Rom 10). Jesus said those on His left will go into eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life (Matt 25). Scripture says.. eternal fire (Matt 25:21), unquenchable fire (Luke 16:23-24), everlasting shame and contempt (Dan. 12:2) tormented day and night forever (Rev 20:10), hell sounds eternal. We have enough ear tickling and feel good messages preach the Word in season or out
@@xaviermilbourne7754 I agree with you.
I don't mind relevant quotes from atheists where appropriate/when it serves a purpose, but it does bother me that the entire impetus for his research was his feefees, plus the idea that atheist feefees about God/the Bible need to be assuaged & that God's character somehow needs to be vindicated by a Christian theologian (which swerves dangerously close to Seventh Day Adventist heresies & fallacies & makes me wonder about his religious upbringing?) That being said I don't approve hellfire & brimstone street corner preaching either, but that speaks more to the defective psychology of the preacher than it does about God. (I.e. some of the harshest advocates of severe divine punishment are often guilty of the very sins they want punished = confession by projection.)
@@kimartist thank you for taking time to respond. Yes, the thought of Hell is worrisome, I have many unsaved family and friends, but that leads me all the more to share the Gospel and to pray for the lost.
the you will be tortured for all eternity is just another demonic human invented heresy. How you get eternal life from the second death makes no sense.
I preached on this topic in my channel. In the message, I did not even have to examine the 100+ texts that show either:
--Every lost person will eventually be destroyed/will die/will be burned up, or
--Only the righteous will "put on" immortality
because it would take several hours to study all of those passages that IMHO teach Conditional Immortality.
Instead, I focused on the eleven passages that are used to teach eternal conscious torment (ECT). I believe I thoroughly refuted ECT while only looking at _their_ proof-texts, including the two most commonly used ones, in Revelation.
Satan would be proud of you. You just made it easier to die in sin
its not just about "those that reject the gospel"
what about those who are truly truly evil
savages
on a national level even
but just vile horrendous bad people
they're not "just" rejecting the gospel
the message that God died for them, He has a way of escape for them and He opens His arms and heart to them - and they say no thank you
I'm talking about the truly wicked narcissistic vindictive hurtful shriveled husks that take pleasure in others misfortune, who use their power to crush weaker poorer people
they show no mercy
seems to me their eternal reward (truly endless) is perfectly just fair proportional and reasonable
Yes I think people don't consider (& maybe it's too painful to consider) that there are truly depraved individuals who have done unspeakable things, cannot/will not respond to deliverance (exorcism), flatly reject Jesus & His Gospel & that (some) even welcome the idea of eternal torment. We have to trust that God knows what He's doing.
@@kimartist -- wow
even worse than i was describing
What about their victims? Sure you can say that eternal torment is just for Hitler but is it also just for all the people he killed but who rejected Jesus to be there right alongside him? What good comes about from God keeping these truly evil people around forever? Doesn't it fit gods justice, righteousness, and character much more to expunge them from the universe? Isn't this the typology that's exhibited in the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Korah's rebellion? After all in 2nd Peter Peter says that God turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes and condemning them to Extinction is an example of what will happen to the ungodly. This is no example of eternal torment but of a complete extermination.
Thank you, Solberg, for providing a platform for Annihilationism’s tenets to be heard and considered.
I became a Christian with the CI understanding because of an SDA upbringing. But even since leaving the Adventism cult, CI has been one of the few doctrines that have stood up to scrutiny during my _from-scratch_ reconstruction process to find my beliefs from a biblical genesis.
I love to see honest discussion of this topic. It's not something many believers are comfortable with challenging or questioning. Probably because the stakes are so high it's not one we want to get wrong. I've gone back and forth with the lake of fire being a place of destruction where human souls are consumed (contrary to angelic souls which are eternally punished) and a refining fire. A place where you are judged according to your works (for those who have rejected the work done by Jesus). But that refinement could ultimately lead to salvation. Excited to hear this discussion. An interesting side note that might be worth another talk is do human souls actually go to heaven? My current thought is that heaven (like "hell") is a place for spiritual (angelic) beings, and the whole human story (past, present, and eternal future) takes place on earth.
The scripture is clear, eternal punishment/ torment
The scripture is clear, the wages of sin is death. They will be ashes under our feet and he will leave them neither root nor branch. That Sodom and Gomorrah by being turned to ashes and sentenced to Extinction are an example of what will happen to the ungodly. They're literally hundreds of verses that speak of the destruction of the wicked and the only that could potentially be said to be speaking of their torment are in the book of Revelation in the midst of an apocalyptic vision that has to be interpreted, not accepted at face value.
@@leavingnc Are you SDA? Because SDAs are always looking to the past (eg. Sodom, Noah, etc.) to "imaginatively" extrapolate what WILL happen, when we have the New Testament to tell us what will happen. True that, the 1st time, God destroyed the Nephilim & everyone who had been seduced by them with water. Next time it will be with fire. There are people today who are trying to use technology (transhumanists) in order to live forever. That is, they are trying to gain immortality without having to go through Jesus to get it. Do you think God will stand for that? No doubt this is what the Mark of the Beast is about. Human people will accept this demonic technology into their bodies & be forever lost. I don't pretend to know how it will all play out, but what if they are indeed not able to die? (Revelation 9 : 6) How then will they be punished with "annihilationism" when they cannot die? Essentially the SDA view is far too shallow. Perhaps people who reject God but do not take the mark will be annihilated? But what about these others who thought they were clever enough to "cheat death" & live forever without the help of Jesus? Perhaps another level of punishment is needed for these?
To deny ECT destroys the Gospel, & historic Christianity, and to challenge it in this public forum will lead many souls into sin and hell in my opinion, respectfully offered.
In what way does it destroy the Gospel and endanger souls, IC? I’m asking in an honest attempt to understand your position. I don’t take this issue lightly. RLS
the fear of ECT could detour someone from sining but will not save anyone. Salvation is only by faith in Christ not fear of hell. So the Gospel stands either way.
So. Just tell everyone about hellfire and they will quit sinning??? NOT
@@carolynbohannon4602 The "goal" is to give everyone fair warning & a fair chance to accept the Gospel. The Gospel is not about behavior modification as so many SDAs & Torahists conceive it. The Holy Spirit, once accepted, modifies behavior. It is our job as Christians to explain the Gospel of Christ & "offer" (so to speak) the gift of the Holy Spirit.
@IC
Maybe the best place to start is
What is the Gospel?
The second question I have is why is challenging eternal conscious torment (no acronyms, please) a threat to the salvation of those who believe in Jesus and how would such a challenge lead people into sin?
Life doesn't die, the inner man doesn't die, that's why even the weaked are going to resurrect and live without God, leave without God is death, in conclusion, the weaked will leave eternally in torments.
Thanks for having the openess to address this topic. You should think of talking with Lex from channel unlearn the lies. He would tie the old testament in this subject. He was my first eye opener to the subject of eternity. I have been studying and can't find fault in what he says about it. Interested to hear your take on the subject.
@@AdamPlayFarms Lex that says we need to pull ourselves back under the old covenant? We must keep Sabbath? I think Rob has addressed his claims before.
@jimijames7703 The pharisees would love your tunnel vision. Rob has had many conversations with ppl he doesn't agree with. Like he said in the video "that's how you are challenged and learn".
@jimijames7703 Yeah your right about the torah. The covenant was only between God and Israel. The wild branches also join the promise when they are grafted in.
@@jimijames7703Yes Yes Yes not the old but the new( feast days.)
@@AdamPlayFarmswe are Israel. If we believe in Jesus Christ.
Did the apostles talk about eternal torment as the result of rejecting Christ when preaching the gospel?
The old testament definitely speaks of the dead "sleeping" in the "grave" (or sheol). If spirit exists outside of space and time, then all of the souls sleeping in the grave could be awakened for the day of judgement and each individual would perceive that as an instantaneous moment no matter how long they have been dead (absent from the body then present with God).
God makes the rules, people need to get over it
He does, and people have been misrepresenting Him for a long time. The wages of sin is death not eternal torment.
56:59
I don’t know the biblical grammar for the terms denoting eternal life or punishment. But it seems that death is an ongoing state and life is an ongoing state.
If I have a plant or pet that dies and I am unable to revive it, the plant or pet remains and continues to remain dead as an ongoing state. It died-the act of death. It is dead-the state of being dead.
Good show
With Conditional Immortality or Annihilationism, I don’t understand what the difference is or if there even is one. It sounds like a new repackaged term.
But, I do think it strips something away from the gospel. We believe in the gospel, Jesus saves our souls. We call Jesus our savior. If CI is true then what did Jesus save us from?
An answer was given during this interview. “Jesus saves us from that dreadful day of the Lord, where we will be judged. We will have to stand before God on that day. Then those who are damned get destroyed and then that’s it. They’ll simply no longer exist.”
My reply to that is this; so basically it’s gonna hurt or sting for a minute and then it’s done with. That doesn’t seem all that bad to me. Just to simply stop existing. Yeah it’s a little depressing but, I’d definitely rather not exist vs spending eternity suffering.
One of the key ideas that brought me to Christ wasn’t the fear of being judged. Even we Christians will be judged, though we’re still saved. But I don’t see in the Bible where we’re saved from becoming non existent.
The literal thing that originally lead me to God was this idea of God became a man and died for me so I wouldn’t have to spend eternity in torment. And honestly because I loved my sin so much, I seriously doubt I would have been willing to turn away from it, if the punishment was to just stop existing.
Now for my biblical argument, I go to 1 Corinthians 15, and I’m going to borrow Paul’s argument for the resurrection. At least the concept and general principles of the case he’s making. I’m thinking verses 30-32.
Why would someone stand in danger every hour? Those of us who are in Christ die daily to ourselves. So many go through so many hardships for the sake of winning lost souls to the truth of salvation. Because it breaks our hearts thinking of loved ones spending eternity in torment. We’re willing to suffer persecution. But hey, if the alternative is to simply stop existing, then what the heck,
“Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die.”
Now for a literal theological stand point. Paul tells us in this same chapter that the last enemy is death. It’s literally at the resurrection where death is defeated. That is where it loses its power. It’s defeated by delivering up the dead. Death not only delivers up the saints, Jesus and Paul both confirm that all in the graves will come out. The just and the unjust. Some to eternal life, and some to eternal damnation. Death is no more at the point. Therefore neither the just or the unjust can die again. This would mean that even the unjust will be made incorruptible in the sense of being made to have supernatural bodies. How else could they be able stand before the presence of God at the white thrown judgement. Their bodies also become eternal. It’s by the doctrine of the resurrection and what takes place at the resurrection that eliminates the possibility of Annihilationism.
1 Corinthians 15:33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.” 34 Awake to righteousness and do not sin, for some do not have the knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.
Removing the fear of eternal punishment could very likely corrupt good morals.
And yet, religious Jews are devoted to HaShem without the fear of eternal torment. The Hebrew Scripture does not teach eternal torment.
Even following HaShem for some kind of hope of heaven or eternal paradise can be seen as a rather selfish motive. Shouldn’t we follow HaShem because He is G-d?
The Christian NT speaks of dying to self. If Christians actually die to self, why are they so obsessed with heaven and hell? Isn’t that a selfish preoccupation?
@@Contemplate55 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
And Do not fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell
And of course the HaShem Jews do not head Jesus’ warning. Because they reject him. Therefore they also reject HaShem because they do not know him.
@@brettdobbs2041 You didn’t actually respond to the content of my post.
@@Contemplate55 your asking if being obsessed with heaven and hell is a selfish preoccupation.
I would say we’re obsessed with Jesus in the Hebrew Yeshua who determines our fate of a destination of heaven or Hell. He gave his life so that we obtain eternal life. And the alternative which is the rejection of him is eternal Hell.
If this is the true pathway, how could it selfish to spread this wonderful plan of redemption?
Because of the suffering I have had in my life, I have asked God to just blot me out when I die. But I was wrong. I was afraid the next life could be like this life. It won’t. My Pastor and my spouse insured me of that. Professor, where I could use a video is on how we should act with the freedom of Grace. Do we still honor the Law and what exactly does that look like? Thanks…
The translators of the English bibles that replaced the three different Greek concepts (hades, tartarus, gehenna) with the single word 'hell' did theology a disservice.
@@stephenbailey9969 I always say just translate as clearly as you can. No reason to translate three different places with the same word!
Hades is the Greek god of the underworld and the abode of the dead. The New Testament use of the word Hades is an obvious example of Christianity absorbing Greek mythology.
That there are only TWO OPTIONS is already explained in Genesis…the people outside the ark PERISHED..The ones inside the ark LIVED..the first ark points to the second ark…so what is in the second ark that lets you live??? The fact that there 8 people in the ark ( the 8th day is of course the eternal day)
means that they will live eternally…Got Torah Got Truth
Any conversation about eternity should first begin with a definition of eternity itself. The assumption that eternity is never ending time as we know it is probably very flawed when we think of Hell or Heaven. An eternal state does not have to involve time. In fact, it may not be possible to fit time into God's eternity. When you think of eternity as a constant and still a real state, that changes everything.
Eternal torment is a sacred cow doctrine to many in church. But people should be allowed to question and challenge this secondary issue according to the scriptures and see if the traditional view lines up to scripture. If not which I dont believe it lines up then it should be discarded. Its a secondary issue so people should not be labeled heretics for taking an alternative view that is a view within orthodox Christianity. We should be teachable humble lovers of truth.
And they are in the presence of the Lamb, which when interpreted traditionally would place Jesus in the lake of fire, the second death so to be in their presence. Does death, the false prophet, the beast experience conscious torment in the lake? Death is a condition, the others governmental systems, not living souls.
Fire insurance-how many have come to Jesus not to follow Him but to avoid suffering torment forever?
@RobSolberg I did not watch all of this video. In a short version could you reply if you are you of the view that those who are not saved they will be judged eternally by at some point being annihilated or ceasing to exist, and not the view of some kind of eternal conscience awareness separated from God in judgment? Thank you very much.
Kelly
Woh!! Your 55? Bro I thought you were in your young 40’s
you must be a Bot
@@salpezzino7803 why would you think that?
Ha! Thanks, Brett.
Rob
Regarding necessity vs luxury-
Doesn’t that question reveal our desire to see people tormented? We want the wicked to be punished, forgetting that we, but for the grace of God, are guilty. Why is our desire for the punishment of the wicked physical and conscious? Why do we get fixated on the idea that anything else isn’t justice.
I need to get this thought down. Maybe I am missing it. But if God chooses to annihilate those who reject Him, HE is dying every time He cuts one off forever, and isn’t that consistent with His nature as revealed in the Incarnation, Sacrifice, and Resurrection?
This makes perfect sense to me. In Judaism the goal is to serve an all powerfull God because He deserves it. In Christianity all to often fear from getting burned is the goal. Christiaity creates selfish faith and Judaism goal is selfless. Paris Reidhead ten shekels and a shirt is one of the best semons of all time. Definitely worth the listen.
Learning to act like a family member of a loving family is the biggest point missed, how to walk in the Spirit has to be revealed by the Most High
Another reason I believe this is because I do not believe in an eternal soul. I also do not believe in the preexisting soul. There is only one eternal that is God.
and we are created in His image
Does that mean we share all his attributes? Are you omnipotent? Omniscient? Omnipresent? Why pick only one of his attributes and say because he is we are?
Abby, Adam & Eve too would have been immortal if they had eaten of the tree of Life. In other words, eternally lost in their sin, but God in His wisdom & mercy prevented them from making that mistake. Jesus provided a way to live eternally in righteousness, rather than to be lost eternally in sin.
@@leavingnc In His Image..... unage, We already know from Scripture those who are His will have Eternal life,
Connect the dots
Nice try BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
@@salpezzino7803 those who are his will RECEIVE eternal life, meaning they don't already have it and are thus not eternal by nature. Read the plain words.
You are so smart and seemingly humble that I have faith that if you're consistent with seeking, prayer, and humility that God will guide you into all truth about hell AND the trinity dogma. We must all be teachable, not led by (inexplicably lol) cherished tradition or labels like "heretic" from the deceived.
I think our friend definitely (unintentionally) butchered Paul’s meaning of elementary principles. Paul is almost certainly referring to basic foundational things, in other words, essential things that should not need to be laid down again because they are so accepted and universal.
@@OrthobroAustin So are you saying that your understanding of baptisms, the final judgment, or the atonement are essential, and those who disagree are not just wrong, but not Christian?
Like i said, these topics are basic and fundamental, and so important, but in the somewhat non biblical categories of essential v. non essential, i call them non essential.
Could you help me understand how your definition applies in the following verses?
"[20] If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, [21] “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” [22] (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)-in accordance with the commandments and teachings of man? [23] These are matters which do have the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and humility and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.
[1] Therefore, if you have been raised with Christ, keep seeking the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. [2] Set your minds on the things that are above, not on the things that are on earth." Colossians 2:20-23,3:1-2 NASB2020
@@coryharasha me or Daniel? I will respond to both of you if time permits, Daniel asks a fair question as do you I think but if it’s to me - are you asking how I can understand Paul in first context to refer to “essentials” when here he uses the same phrase disparagingly?
@@OrthobroAustin Cory is talking to you
@@coryharasha what are you asking? Paul isn't speaking of physical death here.
Erasing Hell by Francis Chan is a great little book that examines this subject and many biblical terms and concepts from the OT and NT.
"Which Bible translations are best FOR YOU."
I think I see the problem here.
Just curious, where does the separation from God concept come from? Thanks.
Great conversation. I've always been compelled emotionally to CI but have just accepted the eternal punishment doctrine. It seems they both have their merit, but I'm excited to explore the possibility of a CI doctrine further. Does CI work best alongside a soulseep doctrine?
I thoroughly believe CI, and I am totally undecided about soul sleep. So I don't think one depends on the other.
Gloria eterna a Dio Padre gloria eterna a Gesù Cristo gloria eterna allo Spirito Santo nei secoli dei secoli senza fine amen Alleluyia
I've been thinking that God is just and according to His own law, the wages of sin is physical death, not eternal consciousness torment. He said eye for eye and tooth for tooth meaning in Israel the punishment had to be proportionate to the crime. Whatever happens to the dead unbelievers it has to be just. Also, he forbade Israel from burning their sons and daughters in the fire (to Molech). Would He then do the same thing? Several passages in the Torah list the punishments for different sins and they are not all the same. Not every sin carried the death penalty - some required restitution plus 20%. God did appear to hold other nations accountable for sin, not just Israel who had received the Torah, e.g. Nineveh, but again, the consequence Jonah warned them of was not ECT - it was that their city would be "overthrown". I'm not drawing a conclusion from this but just highlighting.
How Hell used in Bible
H7585
שְׁאֹל שְׁאוֹל
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.
Total KJV occurrences: 65G1067
γέεννα
geenna
gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.
Total KJV occurrences: 12
G86
ᾅδης
hadēs
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.
Total KJV occurrences: 11
2Pe 2:4 ForG1063 ifG1487 GodG2316 sparedG5339 notG3756 the angelsG32 that sinned,G264 butG235 cast them down to hell,G5020 and deliveredG3860 them into chainsG4577 of darkness,G2217 to be reservedG5083 untoG1519 judgment;G2920
G5020
ταρταρόω
tartaroō
tar-tar-o'-o
From Τάρταρος Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.
Total KJV occurrences: 1
Rev 1:18 (G2532) I am he that liveth,G2198 andG2532 wasG1096 dead;G3498 and,G2532 behold,G2400 I amG1510 aliveG2198 for evermore,G1519 G165 G165 Amen;G281 andG2532 haveG2192 theG3588 keysG2807 of hellG86 andG2532 of death.G2288
G86 ᾅδης hadēs hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.
Total KJV occurrences: 11
G2288 Θάνατος __ thanatos
than'-at-os From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.
Total KJV occurrences: 119
can you put that into a PDF?
Peeling back the layers a bit… in his anthropological view, it sounds like he believes that the human soul is not eternal unless one receives eternal life in Christ… is that an accurate assessment? I don’t have it worked out yet, but that concept seems to be an issue when I consider a biblical worldview of anthropology which to my understanding has deep implications regarding the message of the Gospel too. If “to perish” is a final state rather than an ongoing experience, according to the CI view, what does that mean about the design and condition of the human soul in time and then eternity whether with God or apart from him? 🤔
Robert Solberg, I first have to ask you for your position on hell, is it a place of total annihilation of man or eternal punishment, meaning man burning and tormented throughout eternity?
Eccl 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. It's true that some have walked away from the gospel because The danger of eternal punishment But there were those who would probably walk away, since they're not being really saved from anything if they're not going to know anything when they are dead Then there's nothing to worry about. So the discussion can go both ways.
If eternal life is not enough of a motivation, what is?
@@leavingnc Atheists I've spoken with (yes, I used to work/live in Hollywood) are not the least bit interested in eternal life & could care less about heaven/hell. It is just not a factor in their thought process. Eat, drink & be merry for tomorrow we die is ALL that motivates them.
@@kimartist the OP was saying that there are people who if they believed that there is no eternal torment, would reject Christ and rather die than have eternal life with Jesus. If eternal life doesn't motivate you then nothing will. If someone would choose death over eternal life with God, then they have no love for Christ and Paul says that anyone who has no love for Christ are accursed.
Finally more coming around to the truth of CI. If eternal punishing/burning etc of the wicked is true, then Jesus didn’t pay the price because he’s not burning right now.
You would say that as a 7th Day Adventist, wouldn't you?
In the OT the greatest punishment for breaking the Torah laws was death. Not torture but death. And even death was not given first every “sin” or transgression.
Atheists will definitely come to Christ if annihilation is true. I was atheist before i got saved. The kindness of God leads to repentance, not the fear of hell.
do they then learn the Truth? Because this is a Lie - "the kindness of God leads to repentance" It was God's wrath that Saved those who are His.
God's wrath poured out on His Son on the Cross
Daniel, the Spirit was prophesied in Joel 2:28, in fact with the Spirit being poured out on Gods people as John 3:5, the Jews should not have accepted the Messiah.
Yes but that and the other promises of the gospel were veiled. It is obvious to us now, but it was not to the Jews, which is why Jesus had to tell Nicodemus not to be amazed about the necessity of regeneration.
And Paul called it a revealed mystery. Yes, in Ephesians he is referring to the mystery of the inclusion of the gentiles, but in Colossians 1:26-27 the revealed mystery is "Christ in you."
Dumb thought. Will the torment and hell only exist till after millennium the re release of Satan and enemies then all hell and death done away with when he is finally put into lake of fire?
My question.... we are made up of 3 states body soul and spirit. When death is talked of is it all 3 states? If God can destroy body and soul....what about the spirit aspect?
@katrina…Ecclesiastes 12:7…the dust will return to the earth as it was…and the spirit ( breath )
Will return to God who gave it..also 3:21..Got Torah Got Truth
@@katrinalucas5173 I'm genisis chapter 2 it says God formed man of the dust of the ground and God breathed the breath of life into and man became a living soul. (Kjv) Matt 10:28 says soul and body are destroyed in hell (final punishment. The breath of life made go from having no living experience at all to having living experience and ten is called a soul. So I think the logic follows soul destroyed means no life experience at all.
Some might say, "If Christians believe Hell is not about eternal suffering, they will be less willing to evangelize.”
I have believed in CI since the early 1980s. Since then, I think I have witnessed to 1000+ people face-to-face, and 1000+ more via street preaching. And I became a missionary (in 2013) while believing in CI. And there are millions of eternal conscious torment believers who _never_ evangelize.
the you will be tortured for all eternity is just another demonic human invented heresy. How you get eternal life from the second death makes no sense.
only a 1000 plus? Lightweight What denomination are you ?
I feel sorry for those you have talked to, Sal. Because in your pride, you probably pushed them farther from the kingdom.
@@FRN2013 so do I,
@@FRN2013 you are the same moron - as David just a different channel. Too Funny
Isaiah 66:24 (KJV)
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
the you will be tortured for all eternity is just another demonic human invented heresy. How you get eternal life from the second death makes no sense.
I have to agree with you.
@@Jeff-xt7xs did you take your meds today?
"Carcasses"! Dead bodies! Thank you for making the point of conditional immortality. The wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment.
"neither shall their fire be quenched" Do you know what 'quenched' means? It will not be intentionally put out. But the fire goes out when it runs out of fuel.
Hades is the Greek god of the underworld and the abode of the dead. The New Testament use of the word Hades is an obvious example of Christianity absorbing Greek mythology.
Hail Hydra
@@salpezzino7803 Do you have a comment that pertains to what I posted? Isn’t Hades the Greek god of the underworld?
@@Contemplate55 Jesus & His followers spoke Greek & He (Jesus) did use the word "Hades" when He spoke. John also used the word "Hades" in Revelation. Yes I know other words/concepts for hell were used. I don't know what to make of it other than Jesus was trying to communicate certain messages to His followers & "Hades" paints a certain picture, does it not? It would be interesting to know if the word "Hades" was used in the Septuagint?
Cari fratelli vi cito una scrittura che fa capire come Dio considera il legno che era appeso Gesu Cristo. Ci fa capire questa scrittura che non va idolatrato il legno o croce che era appeso Gesu Cristo.. galati. 3 verso 13 e 14 .. galati verso 13 e 14. Cristo ci ha riscattati dalla maledizione della legge ( legge mosaica ) diventando lui stesso maledizione per noi , perche sta scritto : maledetto chi e appeso al legno , 14 perche in Cristo Gesu la benedizione di Abramo passasse ai pagani e noi mediante la fede , ricevessimo la promessa dello spirito .
Galati 3 verso 13 e 14 scusate non avevo scritto il capitolo
I just started listening to this. Though i may agree with this guy about hell lecitio divina is catholic mysticism. Not biblical.
The linear thinking is depressing😂
Jude 1:7 (KJV)
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
We know that when it rained down fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah. That this is not burning today.
Therefore the judgment of eternal fire fort Sodom and Gomorrah is hell now what happened on Earth.
After reading the scripture the conversation should have been ended.
How do you justify your "Therefore" which is made up out of either your own imagination or the imagination of the teacher where you got it. You can create "therefores" out of whole cloth out of ANY Scripture & false teachers CAN & DO this very thing all the time. It's very serpentine quite frankly.
@@kimartist therefore is commit that was included in what I said. I thot you where going to refer to scripture.
@@kimartist eternal fire this is not hard.
“I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!"
~ Luke 12 : 49
"I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke."
~ Acts 2 : 19
🤦♂️
Jesus said the O.t. is Scripture for us today... do you believe him??? Matthew 4:4..... Paul as well. 2 Timothy 3:16 /.. are they Hebrew root heretics????
If eternal punishment is scriptural then Jesus didn't pay the price for our sins and His sacrifice was inadequate. We know He paid our debt in full so punishment must be finite and final.
We also need to factor in the Golden Rule: "it will be done unto you as you do unto others."
We also have punishment of Babylon for her wickedness on the world where she received twice her deeds...Rev 18:6.
In Rev 18:8 tells us she is consumed, not continuously consumed. Thanks, Rob. Great subject. CI fits with God's character of love as He is unchanging.
His sacrifice was adequate. Atonement must still be received by grace through faith. If not, people die in their sins. Hell isn't Atonement. It's punishment.
@@heather602 the you will be tortured for all eternity is just another demonic human invented heresy. How you get eternal life from the second death makes no sense.
Professor Solberg, you said Jesus paid the price for our sins. However, there is no evidence that Jesus is suffering eternal torment, eternal death, eternal separation from HaShem, or any type of purgatory.
In fact, there is no evidence that Jesus accomplished anything on behalf of mankind. His purported acomplishments are all invisible, as is the “virginal” conception (there are no invisible signs in the Hebrew Bible.)
It is no wonder that Christianity hinges on faith. One can claim all sorts of things happened invisibly.
have you been drinking? On Judgement Day make sure you tell Jesus that there is no evidence that He accomplished anything on behalf of mankind, then when He throws you into the Eternal torment of Hell please remember me. TIA
David Wilber is that you?
@@salpezzino7803 So, instead of providing any evidence of the accomplishments attributed to Jesus, you threaten me with Hell? And, this is supposed to convince me? Where is the evidence?
@@salpezzino7803I am not David Wilber. Is he part of the Torah keeping Christian movement? I know I’ve seen his name before.
@@Contemplate55 I didnt threaten you, I can't throw you into hell, like I said take it up with Jesus
Atheists are not baptised so do not have Gods laws, they cannot sin, as sin is not imputed when there is no law. Only doers of the law shall be justified as Romans 2:12-13.
God has concluded all under sin so that He might have mercy on all.
Yes, but you've got to choose which law you're discussing. There's the law of Moses, given to him by God, which formed the first covenant given to the Jews. And then they broke that covenant. Later, Jesus made a new covenant, and he personally gave laws, and reinterpreted laws from the old covenant, and these reinterpretations formed his law and his commands.
So if you are referring to keeping the laws of Moses, which is 613 laws, then you are not under the new covenant, which consists of Jesus's commands and laws. His is a law of love, a law of liberty. You must choose which covenant you are under.
@@educational4434 Reading Romans you will find Paul sets aside Moses, and refers everything to the faith of Abraham and the religion of the Israelites, and their law was that of Romans 2:13, the law of righteousness. Sin was not imputed until Moses, as the Israelites sinned in Egypt, and Romans 13:8-10 gives us an overview of righteousness.
I have a Ytube video series 'Myths in so-called Christianity' that exposes false teaching in Christianity.
@@heather602 Galatians 3:22 is referring to those specified in Galatians 3:19, they are under the law if sin noted in Galatians 3:17, because of their lack of faith as Israelites.
All in the Greek is pas, and is dependent always on context, it means the accumulative total of those being described. It can mean everyone, but as Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned", it means in context of Romans 3:20 "For all that have sinned".
I have a Ytube video in the series 'Myths in so-called Christianity' on that subject.
@simon..it actually says…Romans 2:12..for all who have sinned without the law..will also perish without the law..Got Torah Got Truth
Some might say, "If lost people believe Hell is not about eternal suffering, they will be less willing to get saved.”
I think the opposite may be true.
I think the idea of ECT (eternal conscious torment) keeps a lot of people from loving and trusting God.
I know a lot of atheists complain about it. They say, “God is a monster for torturing people forever.”
Of course we should not base our understanding of Scripture on what skeptics say. I'm just rejecting the idea that CI would not motivate repentance as much as ECT.
Yes, I think that's one of the most often-used excuses that atheists say.
@@FRN2013 you are answering yourself
I agree. It misrepresents the character of God.
None of this shit represents my teachings.