How would I have held those castings without a good milling vice? I would have machined a couple of cylindrical squares of the appropriate length first. I used to work in the open pit mining industry and managed to pick up a few piston wrist / gudgeon pins from large Cummins V16 haul truck engines that are hardened and ground. Without those I'd just machine some soft ones. That gives you the correct stable 90 degree reference surface to the mill table to clamp the casting faces to.And you have to be careful not to induce stress into the castings once there removed from what your clamping them to since your flat surfaces may no longer stay as flat as they were machined to. Obviously it takes a properly aligned lathe that does turn parallel to machine your own cylindrical squares. But you should already have that anyway. Cast iron that's not chilled is one of the softer metals. Yes you'd likely have to use an end mill to remove the castings surface skin, but I still would have fly cut the surface once that was done. An ultra sharp high speed steel tool and light .003"-.005" depth of cut would have made it just as flat and square as your mill head has been aligned to. That hammering effect you mentioned is a given with fly cutters if there used incorrectly. There classed as and have ALWAYS been a very light finishing tool. And they've never been meant for taking large depths of cut. Yes there are a few designs shown by a few company's that do show large depths of cuts being taken. The tool will do it, but the machines were using including even Bridgeport's aren't capable of doing so for long without suffering damage. It hammers both the spindle drive splines and the spindle bearings. So those razor sharp cutting tools and light depths of cut aren't optional. If you want large depths of cut with larger diameters then a multi tooth face mill is required since there's always at least one tooth cutting continuously.Then there's very little hammering as the next tooth enters the cut.Where you are now and without a good surface grinder then if far better accuracy was desired for your angle plates then hand scraping and a lot of work isn't out of the question in a home shop. There's ample UA-cam videos showing how to check squareness or even make your own squareness comparator. I also don't trust any square no matter how good when it's easy and quick to use the mills Z axis with an indicator swung back and forth in the spindle to ensure the part is truly square to the machines own Z axis. Other than buying a couple of good cylindrical squares as master references and the square in my combination set I haven't bought any other squares at all. Dial and Test Indicators are your best tools for checking and adjusting for square and parallel. It just takes some imagination and practice to figure out how to best use them. I hope some of this helps.
Agree,turning point. Big gudgeon pins make very good cylindrical squares. I have a couple from an old Perkins engine and one bigger pin that came from a large marine diesel. Also second what you say about flycutters being light load cutters if properly set and sharpened. In my apprenticeship days we used to have forgings and raw castings arrive and the first op was create a flat face and a face square to it. These first machining ops on such components were always carried out with flycutters.
Ironman, just a suggestion. Cast two angle plates. Rough flatten the faces of both plates with grinder and file. Drill the plates so you can attach them to each other, and bolt one of them to your table. Shim it so the vertical face is square to the table. Now bolt the other one to the mounted plate and shim their joint until the upper plate is level/parallel to the table. Mill that one with a fly cutter. You can make one of those from a big disk of cast iron with a stem, and put a carbide insert on the edge. Mill the top face of the angle plate flat. Now unbolt it and bolt the finished face to the base plate. The base plate is already square to the table because you had shimmed it that way. Now just make sure the upper plate is parallel to the mill table (no shims for this, just rock it on the bolt until level). Mill that and you have your first milled angle plate done. Now unbolt everything and bolt the milled plate to the table and mount the unmilled plate on top. Check it and mill it flat, as before. Then reverse it and mill its other face. You can do all this on the lathe on a faceplate, btw. Just substitute the faceplate in the above description for the mill table. Hey, miss you on madmodder --- have a visit one of these days. And keep up the great work!
I had an on topic thought about something that might make milling these easier. The first thought was to cast ears on the piece that could be drilled and bolted with t-bolts and stand-offs. Then I wondered about actually drilling the sides so they could be bolted to a fixture and adjusted to the correct position before being locked down.
While you were machining that angle plate, I was thinking you needed more angle plates to hold it. I'm a cheapskate and have a few suspension riser/ lift blocks that I use as fixture blocks. The guys that you get your discs from might have some of these. Could you add tabs to your pattern to use as clamping points and just cut them off when you've finished machining the part? Stay safe and well :)
@@AJR2208 No it is not sarcasm. That method is used a lot when machining castings that are difficult to hold. Thanks for reminding me as I had forgotten this method.
Nice looking angle plate there and an even better Blue Tongue. He or she looks in pretty good nick. They often have ticks trying to get in their ears and under the scales on their heads. You have done a good job keeping him/her clean. 👍
Tabs or holes cast into the gussets would be the easiest to assist in fixturing, but in this case there's another option that includes neither holes nor tabs. Try clamping a small block of aluminum to the outside of the gusset with a shallow C clamp (one on each side). This will give a small 'ledge' to toe-clamp down on and the aluminum is not likely to slip on the rough cast surface. A supporting jack or shim stack near each toe-clamp under the top edge will give the needed support. Love the channel, keep up the good work!
Nice work. This machining bit would be so simple on a horizontal mill. But, yes tabs in the right place would make it much less complex for setup. Thanks for the tip about casting large flat surfaces in your previous video. I plan on trying the minimalist packing approach. I'm about to cast a 450 x 145 x 20mm thick grey iron "plate". I hope it works.
@@luckygen1001 I'm not very good at making videos, but if time permits I will try to get some footage of the moulding process and casting even if it's a fail. It's going to be quite hot this weekend 38Celsius (western Canada is in a heat wave), so we'll see.
I was able to borrow an angle plate of known accuracy and bolt it down to the mill table. I'd already drilled holes in the casting so I could bolt the casting to the good angle plate in a sort of Z configuration for the face and edge cuts. Cute blue tongue!
You always need to use two or three axis during a set up to achieve Square. If you're not doing that, you need to use a dial indicator for the next set up. Without a dial indicator or known square block or vice, you're doing a lot of guessing. Can you come out somewhere close but not true. If I was to surface grind your project Square and true, I'm pretty sure it would be out more than any machinist would appreciate.
*grabs endmills and sharpens them* lol. Alot of the stuff I cast has alot of thin sections on them, so I think I would just avoid using the brake rotors tbh, but it looks like it would be ok for thicker stuff. Does the brake rotors shrink any more than clean cast iron, or is it about the same?
Despite the superficial imperfections, the casting seems to machine quite well. You have now a lot of scraping to do :-) I was wondering if you had made the diagonal sides full square (to be cutoff later), you would have a stable base for machining the sides. Of course, that would have made the casting even more complicated. The other alternative are holes for clamping in the diagonal sides.
Yes sir lots of scrapping ahead. I had thought of the holes in the diagonal sides idea but did not like the idea of looking at holes after the casting was finished.
Machinists jacks are exactly what is needed to accurately adjust and clamp irregular castings. Perhaps another small casting project for Luckygen to make himself some adjustable machinist screw jacks.
I would have just stuck a jack under it, and clamped it from the top surface, moving the clamps when they got in the way of cutting... "clamp dance". I would have put the holes in first, more places to clamp then.
Woah! Our lizards are poisonous & called Monsters, when they get that big. Did you count your shop tools when he left? Good video on milling without THE perfect machine.
As I was looking at this video I thought Flycutter!!! Surprised you didn't hear me :) Have you stress relieved your casting? Cast iron is a lot like wood in my limited experience. What you take off of one side will effect the dimensions of the other side. Nice to see an absence of chilling. Are you going to go all out with this angle plate and scrape it to a desired tolerance?
Sorry to be off topic with this comment, but I was wondering if you have every had any experience with casting copper in a two part sand mold. Any suggestions?
@@luckygen1001 Hi, I continue in the pursuit of copper casting but was wondering about your cast iron work,do you primarily use petrobond sand or a water and bentonite sand for your castings? What is your rule of thumb for venting. I am currently at 10 percent bentonite but am thinking about upping the percentage a bit to enhance detail retention with the copper. I'd very much appreciate any thoughts you might have. Thanks.
@@jimintaos I don't use petrobond with iron. I use bentonite and coal dust with my sand + water. 10% bentonite is too much, I use 7.5% - 8%. I don't use vents as my sand is free venting.
@@luckygen1001 Thank you. I had wondered about the 10 percent bentonite recipe. My memory was of 7 percent but then I came across the 10 percent formula and doubted my older memory. I found that it does a fine job of casting aluminum, nice detail but the copper is a whole other issue. I am now thinking I am going to have to preheat my molds if I want the copper to fill the cavity and pour hotter as well. I greatly appreciate your advice and am enjoying your channel. One of these days I will try casting iron but for now I am learning all the possible ways to go wrong with aluminum, bronze and copper. Once I get this copper gig finished I am looking forward to all of the other possibilities. Again, thank you.
@@luckygen1001 good morning my friend . well, if you use graphite clay crucibles and they can handle it I think thet I paid more for nothing ! the sellers here don't know how to tell you anything about it! ok sir I appreciate your attention !
I'm with you on this plan. A couple of 12 mm holes drilled through the angled webs and either thread the holes or afix 2 lengths of all thread with locknuts and there is your protrusions for clamping down on.
@@howardosborne8647 Read Anthony Ruddys reply, casting tabs so the angle plate can be clamped down and then machine them off. I think that is the best idea so far.
@@luckygen1001 That is a part of life. I have researched it enough to confuse myself. I watched one video of some manufacturer in India that made it look simple so I just might take off my shoes and try their method. Something for the future. Thanks for the reply.
How would I have held those castings without a good milling vice? I would have machined a couple of cylindrical squares of the appropriate length first. I used to work in the open pit mining industry and managed to pick up a few piston wrist / gudgeon pins from large Cummins V16 haul truck engines that are hardened and ground. Without those I'd just machine some soft ones. That gives you the correct stable 90 degree reference surface to the mill table to clamp the casting faces to.And you have to be careful not to induce stress into the castings once there removed from what your clamping them to since your flat surfaces may no longer stay as flat as they were machined to. Obviously it takes a properly aligned lathe that does turn parallel to machine your own cylindrical squares. But you should already have that anyway. Cast iron that's not chilled is one of the softer metals. Yes you'd likely have to use an end mill to remove the castings surface skin, but I still would have fly cut the surface once that was done. An ultra sharp high speed steel tool and light .003"-.005" depth of cut would have made it just as flat and square as your mill head has been aligned to.
That hammering effect you mentioned is a given with fly cutters if there used incorrectly. There classed as and have ALWAYS been a very light finishing tool. And they've never been meant for taking large depths of cut. Yes there are a few designs shown by a few company's that do show large depths of cuts being taken. The tool will do it, but the machines were using including even Bridgeport's aren't capable of doing so for long without suffering damage. It hammers both the spindle drive splines and the spindle bearings. So those razor sharp cutting tools and light depths of cut aren't optional. If you want large depths of cut with larger diameters then a multi tooth face mill is required since there's always at least one tooth cutting continuously.Then there's very little hammering as the next tooth enters the cut.Where you are now and without a good surface grinder then if far better accuracy was desired for your angle plates then hand scraping and a lot of work isn't out of the question in a home shop. There's ample UA-cam videos showing how to check squareness or even make your own squareness comparator.
I also don't trust any square no matter how good when it's easy and quick to use the mills Z axis with an indicator swung back and forth in the spindle to ensure the part is truly square to the machines own Z axis. Other than buying a couple of good cylindrical squares as master references and the square in my combination set I haven't bought any other squares at all. Dial and Test Indicators are your best tools for checking and adjusting for square and parallel. It just takes some imagination and practice to figure out how to best use them. I hope some of this helps.
Agree,turning point. Big gudgeon pins make very good cylindrical squares. I have a couple from an old Perkins engine and one bigger pin that came from a large marine diesel. Also second what you say about flycutters being light load cutters if properly set and sharpened. In my apprenticeship days we used to have forgings and raw castings arrive and the first op was create a flat face and a face square to it. These first machining ops on such components were always carried out with flycutters.
Ironman, just a suggestion. Cast two angle plates. Rough flatten the faces of both plates with grinder and file. Drill the plates so you can attach them to each other, and bolt one of them to your table. Shim it so the vertical face is square to the table.
Now bolt the other one to the mounted plate and shim their joint until the upper plate is level/parallel to the table.
Mill that one with a fly cutter. You can make one of those from a big disk of cast iron with a stem, and put a carbide insert on the edge.
Mill the top face of the angle plate flat. Now unbolt it and bolt the finished face to the base plate. The base plate is already square to the table because you had shimmed it that way.
Now just make sure the upper plate is parallel to the mill table (no shims for this, just rock it on the bolt until level). Mill that and you have your first milled angle plate done.
Now unbolt everything and bolt the milled plate to the table and mount the unmilled plate on top. Check it and mill it flat, as before. Then reverse it and mill its other face.
You can do all this on the lathe on a faceplate, btw. Just substitute the faceplate in the above description for the mill table.
Hey, miss you on madmodder --- have a visit one of these days. And keep up the great work!
I had an on topic thought about something that might make milling these easier. The first thought was to cast ears on the piece that could be drilled and bolted with t-bolts and stand-offs. Then I wondered about actually drilling the sides so they could be bolted to a fixture and adjusted to the correct position before being locked down.
While you were machining that angle plate, I was thinking you needed more angle plates to hold it. I'm a cheapskate and have a few suspension riser/ lift blocks that I use as fixture blocks. The guys that you get your discs from might have some of these.
Could you add tabs to your pattern to use as clamping points and just cut them off when you've finished machining the part? Stay safe and well :)
What a great idea putting tabs on my casting and cutting them off after the casting has been machined.
@@luckygen1001 That's not sarcasm is it? I've never done that with a casting, but I have with other things.
@@AJR2208 No it is not sarcasm. That method is used a lot when machining castings that are difficult to hold. Thanks for reminding me as I had forgotten this method.
@@luckygen1001 Thank you :)
Nice looking angle plate there and an even better Blue Tongue. He or she looks in pretty good nick. They often have ticks trying to get in their ears and under the scales on their heads. You have done a good job keeping him/her clean. 👍
Ticks are not a problem where I live.
Tabs or holes cast into the gussets would be the easiest to assist in fixturing, but in this case there's another option that includes neither holes nor tabs. Try clamping a small block of aluminum to the outside of the gusset with a shallow C clamp (one on each side). This will give a small 'ledge' to toe-clamp down on and the aluminum is not likely to slip on the rough cast surface. A supporting jack or shim stack near each toe-clamp under the top edge will give the needed support. Love the channel, keep up the good work!
Nice work. This machining bit would be so simple on a horizontal mill. But, yes tabs in the right place would make it much less complex for setup. Thanks for the tip about casting large flat surfaces in your previous video. I plan on trying the minimalist packing approach. I'm about to cast a 450 x 145 x 20mm thick grey iron "plate". I hope it works.
That is a really big iron casting, be sure to make a video about it.
@@luckygen1001 I'm not very good at making videos, but if time permits I will try to get some footage of the moulding process and casting even if it's a fail. It's going to be quite hot this weekend 38Celsius (western Canada is in a heat wave), so we'll see.
Enjoyed. Your explanations of what you are doing seem quite thorough.
Wow!!! I want to do de same. Thanks for the video. Greetings from Spain
Another great video.... Thanks.....
Thanks for sharing!
I was able to borrow an angle plate of known accuracy and bolt it down to the mill table. I'd already drilled holes in the casting so I could bolt the casting to the good angle plate in a sort of Z configuration for the face and edge cuts. Cute blue tongue!
I wish I could borrow one to do the same as you.
NICE thanks man
i used a friends Angle Plate to hold my angle plate I was machining.
Cheater!! You probably use a carbide face mill as well!!
You always need to use two or three axis during a set up to achieve Square. If you're not doing that, you need to use a dial indicator for the next set up. Without a dial indicator or known square block or vice, you're doing a lot of guessing. Can you come out somewhere close but not true. If I was to surface grind your project Square and true, I'm pretty sure it would be out more than any machinist would appreciate.
*grabs endmills and sharpens them* lol. Alot of the stuff I cast has alot of thin sections on them, so I think I would just avoid using the brake rotors tbh, but it looks like it would be ok for thicker stuff. Does the brake rotors shrink any more than clean cast iron, or is it about the same?
Brake rotors shrink about the same as other cast irons.
@@luckygen1001 oh, ok
Despite the superficial imperfections, the casting seems to machine quite well. You have now a lot of scraping to do :-)
I was wondering if you had made the diagonal sides full square (to be cutoff later), you would have a stable base for machining the sides. Of course, that would have made the casting even more complicated. The other alternative are holes for clamping in the diagonal sides.
Yes sir lots of scrapping ahead. I had thought of the holes in the diagonal sides idea but did not like the idea of looking at holes after the casting was finished.
@@luckygen1001 You got a point with the holes - they wouldn't look good on the final product - kind of like a toilet paper holder :-)
I wonder if a couple machinist jacks might have held that side firmly
Machinists jacks are exactly what is needed to accurately adjust and clamp irregular castings. Perhaps another small casting project for Luckygen to make himself some adjustable machinist screw jacks.
Spray coolant to keep things cool and lubricated. I'm guessing you don't have a facing mill to make things faster
Cast iron doesn't need coolant or lubricant. Air blast at most is all that is required
I would have just stuck a jack under it, and clamped it from the top surface, moving the clamps when they got in the way of cutting... "clamp dance". I would have put the holes in first, more places to clamp then.
I thought about the using the clamp dance but it can lead to an inaccurate angle plate.
Woah! Our lizards are poisonous & called Monsters, when they get that big. Did you count your shop tools when he left?
Good video on milling without THE perfect machine.
I did not know lizards are poisonous, I must put my finger in it's mouth.
Only the American Gila Monster and Beaded Lizard are poisonous.
As I was looking at this video I thought Flycutter!!! Surprised you didn't hear me :) Have you stress relieved your casting? Cast iron is a lot like wood in my limited experience. What you take off of one side will effect the dimensions of the other side. Nice to see an absence of chilling. Are you going to go all out with this angle plate and scrape it to a desired tolerance?
I will have a go at scrapping and use a file. No I have not stress relieved that casting but machining tends to relieve stress.
My question is: Are you going to scrap it? That would fix the short comings of the mil.
No.
Ok, It is totally fine for 99+% of all uses.
@@iteerrex8166 Yes that is correct.
Sorry to be off topic with this comment, but I was wondering if you have every had any experience with casting copper in a two part sand mold. Any suggestions?
Yes I have and I found out that copper is a very difficult metal to cast so if you do try it don't expect to be successful the first time.
@@luckygen1001 Hi, I continue in the pursuit of copper casting but was wondering about your cast iron work,do you primarily use petrobond sand or a water and bentonite sand for your castings? What is your rule of thumb for venting.
I am currently at 10 percent bentonite but am thinking about upping the percentage a bit to enhance detail retention with the copper. I'd very much appreciate any thoughts you might have. Thanks.
@@jimintaos I don't use petrobond with iron. I use bentonite and coal dust with my sand + water. 10% bentonite is too much, I use 7.5% - 8%. I don't use vents as my sand is free venting.
@@luckygen1001 Thank you. I had wondered about the 10 percent bentonite recipe. My memory was of 7 percent but then I came across the 10 percent formula and doubted my older memory. I found that it does a fine job of casting aluminum, nice detail but the copper is a whole other issue. I am now thinking I am going to have to preheat my molds if I want the copper to fill the cavity and pour hotter as well. I greatly appreciate your advice and am enjoying your channel. One of these days I will try casting iron but for now I am learning all the possible ways to go wrong with aluminum, bronze and copper. Once I get this copper gig finished I am looking forward to all of the other possibilities. Again, thank you.
That's a nice lizard you've got there.
hello friend, what's the name of the crucibles you use?
Corona or salamander ?
I await your reply and I am grateful, and may God bless you a lot, ok!
Clay graphite made by morgan.
@@luckygen1001
OK thank you Lucy , By the answer .
But what would you tell me about graphite silicon carbide ?
would they really be more resilient?
@@admilsonalmondes5765 I have never used a silicon carbide crucible only clay graphite.
@@luckygen1001
good morning my friend .
well, if you use graphite clay crucibles and they can handle it I think thet I paid more for nothing !
the sellers here don't know how to tell you anything about it! ok sir I appreciate your attention !
I would have made holes or slots in the sides to hold it down. You don't seem to have anything holding the part down, only from moving sideways.
I'm with you on this plan. A couple of 12 mm holes drilled through the angled webs and either thread the holes or afix 2 lengths of all thread with locknuts and there is your protrusions for clamping down on.
@@howardosborne8647 Read Anthony Ruddys reply, casting tabs so the angle plate can be clamped down and then machine them off. I think that is the best idea so far.
The clamps are holding it down but it is not 100% secure.
Thanks for all the videos. Question. Have you ever tried making crucibles?
Yes and it was a failure.
@@luckygen1001 That is a part of life. I have researched it enough to confuse myself. I watched one video of some manufacturer in India that made it look simple so I just might take off my shoes and try their method. Something for the future. Thanks for the reply.
@@markmadachik6351 That's what a lot people say about my videos, you make it look so easy....... but when they try it sometimes failure is the result.
To much talking