I'd argue we need less. Too many platform fighters try to follow Melee too closely, to the point where the main series feels more unique than the rest of the genre.
We need platform fighters with depth, we do not need platform fighters that are like melee because melee does not represent the essence of depth for platform fighters, the aggressive aspect of it is the only part of it that is deep.
@@deathangeleas2401 I don’t know dude. Defensive options are pretty fucking insane in melee compared to the other smash games. Just watch the video on just OOS options alone from Hax or watch Wizzy’s SDI. There’s way more defensive depth that casual spectators never actually notice.
@@patrickminsch3813 There are definitely just as many if not more OOS options in the newer smash games and SDI in the way that melee and brawl do it are not defensive by default or even unique imo. Similar to crouch canceling (which is in every smash game and works the same way everytime) it just gives you an edge to survive longer then you normally would if you didn't use it.
Not a hot take, but straight fact: Project M deserves to get the Slippi treatment and get rollback netcode and all the fun tools added from modded Melee.
@@jakezepeda1267same, but hey, there is joy at the various levels of competitiveness, or if someone implemented minigames like the volleyball one or the brawlhalla ones, there would be much more options to enjoy these games, rather than plain random items and the classic competitive mode. And finding people to play in this era would be much easier to do, in places like discord you could arrange a matchup easier than ever before, I would try it if it wasn't for my potato of a computer, but later I will e.e... But it's perfect that Melee and the upcoming platform fighters will have rollback, rollback brings us together
That last take wasn't even booty because of anything related to the game. It's more indicative of the character of the person in question. You gotta be pretty entitled to wish for people to just stop liking/enjoying something just because you don't like it.
By the frame perfect thing I think they meant that the buffer system is non existent in melee so to do basic things perfectly you need to be frame perfect, as compared to other titles
Yea that’s probably what they meant. If you play melee first then ultimate, the buffer make you want to pull your hair out. If you play ultimate first then melee, it feels clunky because you’re used to a buffer. Every person that has ever said that melee is clunky and meant it are people who haven’t played the game for any more than like 5 hours. Everyone experiences it. I did and my friends did. The friends that stopped playing still think melee is clunky, the friends they kept playing don’t think it anymore.
@@Scharfster I definitely agree. I actually play both games too. I think some people take themselves to seriously when talking about the games separately. Ultimate is a great game. It’s fun to play one for a while and seamlessly switch between them.
Then again, Smash is mostly designed with a more casual oriented experience in mind. While yes, competitive aspects play a huge part in development, Sakurai and his team also wanted Ultimate to be a balance between casual and competitive play
I don’t think I’ve heard any causal ever say “Oh man why didn’t that move come out 7 frames faster!” I don’t think casuals would like the older games either cause they simply have clunkier movement unless you have a PhD in the schmovment.
@@caw64 no, but you do notice it. You might input a move then get frustrated in how long it takes for your character to respond. It’s laggy enough that a lot of players, even casual players, notice it. 7 frames is a long time, even for human reaction time.
They definitely tried to balance but kinda lukewarm in both sides imo. Causal for not having that much content once you beat WOL and Competitive made them mechanics and movement being safe and inconsistent especially with the patch notes being very little in terms of adjustments. Sorta feels like they were trying to let the casuals get into the competitive scene but that's just me.
If customs were selectable when you chose your fighter on the character select screen, then customs would not have been put to the side, and we'd probably see them in tournament play and eventually in ultimate. I also wish we could've had actual separate moves instead of just variations.
As much as i like melee thats definitely a fair take. It takes a lot of time and commitment into melee before it starts feeling rewarding imo. Thats its biggest flaw i think
fair, but spend more than a couple hours playing and you and your hands will likely get used to the lack of buffer if you want to really get into it. I'm the same with ultimate, fighting the buffer and input lag is like piloting a bluetooth apache attack chopper from the other side of the world on mcdonalds wifi, but I'm sure I'd get used to it if I just spent some extended time with it.
@@Dorriedude I get away with beating up on people with Low tiers but only in my Region. I'm the best in GA which is like being the best Ultimate player in Uganda.
On Pokémon Stadium: It’s not just the infinite that makes it competitively questionable. It’s also the fact to on certain transitions, you can just clip through the stage and fall to your death.
Hot Take: Sakurai is being held hostage by Nintendo to make shitty knockoff smash games based on his magnum opus Melee Sakurai "said" in an interview that smash is a party game, yet posts on the old japanese melee dojo website about how to wavedash? Intentionally adding complex mechanics into the game like L-Canceling, Smash DI, and even catching items? There's even interviews I think of Sakurai talking about how Melee was supposed to be everything he wanted in smash 64? Where did all his passion go? *sees big scary Nintendo in the corner of the room* Oh I understand, yeah sure... Melee and smash are just "party" games *wink* *wink*
If it’s still possible to say your hot take in this comment section to get featured in an hypothetical sequel, here’s mine: Reflectors are extremely poorly designed moves. I’m mostly talking about ult since in melee zoners are really rare and I don’t have the game anyway, but they’re just cheap 1-dimensional moves that shuts down 90% of some characters gameplay that you as the projectile user need to constantly be aware of and play around at every second while the opponent just has to react and press their little button and poof you get heavily punished for trying to keep your position after throwing a single projectile. To punish one, you basically need to both get a big read (and you get punished if you were wrong) and also be in the optimal positions for it which means giving away positional advantage (for zoners being far away is the advantageous position). It completely shuts down projectile edgeguarding, frame trapping, and the ability to burn the opponent’s air dodge for just some specific characters. And just fundamentally a move which only purpose is to counter certain moves that some chars don’t even have and is completely useless or totally op depending on the matchup isn’t well designed. And it’s not like they give it to chars that actually could struggle to get in, only ddd kinda deserves one and he has by far the worst one. Like yeah of course it’s a good idea to give a reflector to Fox, one of the fastest chars in the game, falco, who has the highest jump in the game and can easily go over most zoning setups, joker and palu who are fricking top tiers and respectively are one of the most slippery character and already has plenty of anti-zoning options, and I could go in for ages. -sincerely, a 1332 mii gunner main
Yeah, that smash run mode shoud have been in the Wii u package, the assets were there, what the heck happened there?! And why the heck they took out the Master hand and crazy hand modes? It was an Interesting mode that allowed you to strategized and win stuff for it.
@@jakezepeda1267 same, it sucks that it didn't got implemented in ultimate in some way, i would love if companies had a social section in which people were allowed to talk about stuff like these. It would be far much less annoying than receiving requests in tweeter and would actually make more sense. I would like to ask for various functional fixes.
"It's asking alot out of a game meant for casual play and it fails at being casual since it's all just competitive" Kind of why Nintendo doesn't support competitive play directly.
while I agree that melee doesn’t need to die, you do kinda need to be frame perfect to play melee. There really isn’t an input buffer system in melee unlike smash 4/ultimate/most modern games, which means that almost every consecutive input you do needs to be frame perfect or else you will be idle/doing nothing for however many frames you were off by.
Hot take, but Fox is actually one of the worst characters in the game. His weight allows him to be killed early, his only recovery options are linear meaning that he is easy to edgeguard, and his lasers which are "the best projectile in the game" don't even do damage. You can literally just walk through them and attack! If someone good at the game actually realized this and adapted, the rest of the community would agree. This is why the young beauty Hugs will be ranked #1 within the year
His recovery is less linear than 80% of the cast dude. Maybe in ultimate where you get brain dead recoveries every where but in melee you’re just an idiot for saying that.
Idk if this is a hot take or not, but L-cancelling is not a good game mechanic. With all other Melee tech it's not just simply better, there's some strategy to when to wavedash, dash dance, etc. But with L-cancelling, it's either use it, or get punished for no good reason.
@@SRM13 That's not the problem. L-cancelling is relatively easy, there's just no downside to removing it and making all aerials have half the landing lag by default
Smash 4 is the least worth going back to in the series. 64 is the first and has the most different gameplay, Melee has it's crazy competitive techniques and speed, Brawl has the most side content, and Ultimate has every character. What does either Smash 4 have?
Hot take: I’ve watched one p+ set in my life and it was pretty cool but the pure irrelevancy of the game’s scene pretty much guarantees that it’ll never be as popular as melee or ult.
project+ is the best plstform fighter until it crashes for no reason don´t get me wrong i love P+ but it's s bit buggy (not buggy enough to be bad game or unfun imo)
The Akenia mod for melee is the perfect experience because it means I can play Diddy on rollback. Only downside is frozen stadium is the only choice on rollback but eh what can you do it’s still fun. P+ with rollback tho mmmmm I need that.
likely due to the switch being underpowered and modern tv's stressing resolution and image quality over responsiveness and refresh rate and sakurai forgetting to give a fuck about making his game feel anything less like driving a semi from the other side of the world on a bluetooth connection using DK Bongos.
Worst part about melee is how every slippi kid got convinced the only way to play melee is to camp+ grind uncle punch. Wish people just played for "fun" rather than whatever they think is most tournament viable
I’ve actually put quite the amount of time into Melee, completing the game, and I still stand by what I said about Melee being clunky. The nonexistent buffer system makes it hard to move for beginners which entirely takes away from it being the party game it was designed to be and makes it a product that fails to meet its goals
Melee haters find the most bullshit excuses to call the game trash and they get pissed off because they know playing melee takes more skill than playing brawl or ultimate that’s just what I think tho.
Also project M/+ is not the best In the series, it has some good ideas though for characters (hence lucario, link, Lucas, etc.) it’s still just 80% melee with a few tweaks here and there.
If the only thing that makes Sm4sh and Brawl better competitively than Ultimate is shield dropping, then damn what have I been playing for the past 3 years?
Ultimate is trash in the context of lag, teching or pretty much any move sucks because of lag, so yes, it is unresponsive, therefore it sucks. But it has the best roster and it's way faster than Smash 4(but smash 4 had more responsive controls imo, i'd rather have that responsiveness here in ultimate than what we got) . Hopefully they pull it off again with an optional model like multiversus or KI of a "Game as a service" so much more people consume on the dlc's outside only being able to buy a whole roster if you only want to play Steve or something like that...
ult is the worse competitively not even a contest, every single character feels so bland the movement is bland there is nothing enticing to keep a player going, ult would better w infinites, chain grabs, etc the only thing ult has going for it is that is the most balanced smash game out of the 80 characters
2:25 On my opinion, rivals seems a MUCH more interesting competitve game than project+ for one simple reason the characters are much more diverse and unique
Rivals of Aether >>>>>> any other platform fighter/Smash-like I get the art style being a turn-off for people, but mechanically tho??? Also Workshop lol
melee doesnt need to die, yeah. personally i cant stand smash ultimate's gameplay and meta etc, i think they're less comparable than like Melee vs Rivals of Aether
Not necessarily melee, but the community behind melee because they have garnered so much notoriety and have used that to make it seem like melee the game is a flawless masterpiece that not only is the peak of not just platform fighters, but just fighting games and their community in general. So many games including games in it’s own series like smash 4 and ultimate are far more enjoyable to learn, play and more big brain then melee ever could be. If you care a lot about being technical or whatever play king of fighters, Tekken or like I said earlier Ultimate because melee technical prowess and depth is mostly in aggressive gameplay. Camping is not deep in melee, zoning isn’t deep in melee, the most used and viable playstyle that has a lot of depth (especially because of Fox and falco) of the meta is rush down and bait punish. It is not the best game competitively and it’s not even the best experience in the fighting games genre overall.
I don't think you've hung around the melee community enough, our schtick is that we complain and are amazed about how imperfect melee is lmao. A perfect game, which ultimate is closer to reaching, would be incredibly boring and have zero depth.. That's not Melee's appeal. It's using it's imperfectness to achieve perfection. Camping and zoning in general is not meant to be deep, and at ultimate's core is the same thing that's existed since Melee even 64 is baiting and punishing, like camping and zoning are ALSO just one massive bait.
@@queuedjar4578 bro you literally just made the ladder half of your paragraph up, that is literally not true at all and the fact that you can say it with so much certainty is proof of why the first part of your paragraph is not true either. How the fuck do you make literal perfection without the other playstyles that makes fighting games fighting games? Melee has and will never be able to force its will through you and the community to naturally somehow making everyone else think that it is an underrated masterpiece of competitive gaming. And yes I’ve been around in the smash community for a very long time so I would fucking know, melee dipshit.
@@deathangeleas2401 Jeez that turned hostile real quick, I don't even know how if any aggression came off through my context-less text but please simmer for a moment. First off, yes, camping and zoning is a bait, 99% of fgc is conditioning your opponent into doing what you want or narrowing their options into doing something less safe to get openings, and that's bait. No one just goes into fighting games hoping the opponent will just put down the controller and let you kill them. And we might have a different definition of perfect. I don't want a game where every single attack does the same exact damage across players at the same frame data with the same hitboxes, because then all depth is removed, perfect games suck. And Melee is not underrated, it's rated exactly how it should be in my opinion. It's highly rated among everyone who encounters it, because it's flashy and cool and a difficult game with lots of history and depth. This means it requires a lot of attention and dedication, meaning those willing to dedicate themselves to it get as much as they put in, and understandably those who don't want to can exist peacefully. I don't know where you get this idea, either people are elitist about it ironically, or the truth is the melee community literally doesn't care about this point it gets fucked from every angle (including within) regardless and will continue to live on, and WILL live on, longer than any Smash game and probably the majority of fighting games. I don't like to assume and point fingers, but maybe you're undergoing a bit of a projecting. You're acting a lot more elitist and gatekeeping than I am my guy. All you have done so far is effectively call me stupid and all my arguments are invalid because, though I may be newer than you (as new as someone who has played melee since 2005 can be), as the tendency is with the healthy introduction of new dedicated people to a scene, we can bring fresh and unique outlooks and inputs on things. Give me some info, something to digest instead, don't just show me the door man.
@@queuedjar4578 Alrighty so I had to reread the whole thread cause Im like mad tired and I think it was at like 4 or some shit that I said all that and I was just like feeling kinda moody and so I apologize for being agro and condescending. I try to correct melee players for doing this exact same thing when these conversations usually come up and generally I tend to keep a level a head about this shit cause its just games bro like its not that crazy, but also it kind've is obviously cause these are games that we love and they're all good I feel in a competitive sense at the end of the day and its just my personal belief and whatever. (still tired lol so bare with me) I'll try to address my point of view as much as I can and as short as I can cause like its 7 am where I am and yeah. So about the Zoning in camping thing, I think anyone who is just getting into fighting games in generall understand this concept generally which is that rushdown, zoning and camping are all super different and have diverse sub categories that exist within any roster in any game. I don't feel like I should have to explaing this, but for the purpose of being crystal clear all just go over each of the three and leave at that: Rushdown is all about overwhelming and hard punishing your opponent and that most complex version of this is when a character has the tools (like wavedashing in melee in general or specifically the characters who do it the best being Fox and Falco) to also outmaneuver their opponent as much as possible with fast movement and quick methodical CQC to insure your getting your hits in while also not really hit. some really good examples of this also are characters like ZSS and Joker in ultimate as well (honestly ZSS in smash 4 was a little because she doesn't always have to rely on raw hits just get damage like it ult, but its still fun imo). Zoning/mid-range combat is likely what your talking about or at least a variation of zoning where you keep neutral at a mid-range stance trying to find openings and baiting the opponent to make mistakes in order to get said openings, easiest example of this that is not smash for once is guile who is a charge character who mostly plays at the mid-range and flash kicks you if you get near him until eventually he his charge and goes in for his damage, Zoners can also just kinda play between aggressive and campy depending on the person it's kinda just the beauty of zoners they tend to be the marriage of the other two pollar opposites so yeah. And finally campers lmao, the people that everyone fucking hates for just playing the character correctly like fucking dabuz with rosalina in both games (smash 4 and Ult) where they don't really approach at all and beat you by war of attrition whether it be with projectiles or if your Min Min where your you literally extend you arms across the whole stage or all the way to the blast zone lol. It's essentially a wall, wall that they can go on the otherside, but you can't because they make the fortress and its the other players job especially if you are a rushdown player to breach that wall and break all their defenses because most of the time once that happens they dont really have a way to deal with you in close quarters cause thats what their fortress covers. Theres also obviously the jacks of all trades or your occasional stance character who encompasses all three playstyles and are a class of their own, but Im sure this paragraph already feels rambly and pointless. Main point is, most playstyles (especially in smash) are not short or long bait punish playstyles really they're all different I would say and bait punish overall is tactic that can be implemented into all of them, but especially with like camping and rushdown sometimes, it won't be as effective as just "playing to not get hit" because its not really playing to the characters strengths tbh. There has been some discourse in some melee conversations that because of shine alone and how much Falco and fox benefit from wavedashing (not as much as luigi obviously, but still) that they both are potentially a master-of-all trades/stance characters in melee, but like I said they don't get as much from lasers as they do from a raw wavedash shine or an uptilt or something, they are very complex rushdown characters which I give credit to melee for having because they are probobly the juciest characters in the game compared to everyone else by a lot a lot since most of the characters aside from them are relatively imo. I feel like that second/third paragraph is just kind've saying something that reminds me of what Leffen has said once at a summit which was something along the lines of like "We're all crazy for playing this game the way that we do", riding off of the bias of ig the person saying it would imply that if you care about the game that much or something then it's on you that you didn't get as good as you felt you should have??? idk, but like the game doesn't just have a high skill floor its just actually a fucking frustrating game and even if you get good like actually you consistently wavedash, you know how to ledgedash, you know some combo extensions on platforms, etc EVEN THEN the game is fucking annoying as shit for no reason and its not because like "like if you wanna git gud you have to be on point" its like sometimes its unnecessarily strict the way the game works and its not good for the player to push themselves for this game and like thats why this game has is been dying imo since leffen won evo cause the main storyline is over, this game can only stand with the community backing it otherwise this game would have died even before leffen won evo, like way before (like probobly when smash 4 was popping off) so yeah idk bro. Anyway, I think that covers mostly everything, again sorry for wasting any time in this fuckin youtube comment section. I understand that like this topic in the community is so heated and stigmatized within the community that new players once they find out about it are almost too afraid to even bring it up cause it just instantly causes like this wave of discord in the call, group, thread, etc making it difficult to see others perspectives and approach it with nuance, so theres a more in depth breakdown of it and again sorry come off that way I hate when melee players do with their extreme ass bias for the game and I shoulda just started with this. Have a good one and enjoy the smash experience.
Smash should get the "Game as a service treatment", asking 60 bucks for a roster of almost 100 characters including third party ones, plus extra content it's just not gonna be that reliable. If they gave us an option of buying an amount of characters for x amount of money, or an individual character, that would be great 👍, that and giving me tons of customizable stuff like skins and the like, it surprises me that they haven't tried this at this point. Hopefully they do it in a sequel if multiversus and project L proves them that such practice work.
I think that Nintendo has always had a philosophy of games being sold as a total experience (relatively) and transitioning to a game as a service model wouldn’t be in their vision. Plus their games are so exclusive they have no real pressure to innovate, multiversus won’t touch them and project L is a different type of fighting game entirely
@@eliastew9636 i would incline to think the same, but in the case of project L, it might not affect them directly, but indirectly it can, considering that Namco is the one who develops the game since the Wii U, and they also develop Tekken and that it competes in the traditional fighter market, it can affect some decisions like the implementation of rollback netcode for that genre, and if it can do that for them, it might affect on other decisions like skins. But as you say, nintendo really doesn't care, so getting at least getting good netcode would be difficult comming from their mindset, much less the skin aspect. But it does leave the question, would they get all characters again plus more for 60 bucks? Will they make their games cost more to compensate on that? Time will tell. But in the longrun i would argue they'll end up getting the features of these games, like...in the real long run ... damn old people e.e
I find it ok to watch. But damn the game as a whole is worse purely because the single player is much worse, WoL is not as interesting, no break the targets. Stupid
Honestly at least brawl had Meta Knight who was actually cool but he was too cool for everyone else, MK dittos were actually kinda heat and any games without him or ICs aren't too bad. Even then brawl at least had shield dropping
Imo I find my self tapping out from smash ultimate was faster than melee or p+ simply because of the movement. Idk why but ultimate feels hella clunky to me
Melee, while interesting to watch, is a terrible game that needs to die. The movement is clunky unless you're frame perfect which is asking a lot out of a game meant for casual play. The game fails at being a casual party game and ends up being a competitive mess
@@kevwox I mean he's half right. It's a bad party game, if you want to party just play any game after melee which had more casual content. Competitively the game is held back by being very strict and not having a lot of actually good characters. If you wanna play a more lenient and balanced melee there are options, P+ is very similar but it's not the same and there are some things changed you may not like, and Rivals whilst missing a grab still manages to be fun with competitively and casually due to its whorde of mods. Melee is a very fun game to watch and play but it can be strict and dies have it's pitfalls. Overall I'd give it 8/10 very solid game not perfect tho.
L Cancelling sucks and Melee has too much hitstun so combos feel unearned a lot of the time, also the ledge is bullshit and there should be better defensive options
Melee is the least interesting Smash game to watch 64 has some nice combos and the combo contest is there Brawl has some stupid stuff that honestly makes the game fun Smash 4 has more interesting combos and more interesting jank Ultimate has every character viable which honestly makes the game more fun to watch
Nintendo Is Trying To Kill Melee Again: ua-cam.com/video/phowrWtAZSs/v-deo.htmlsi=zm6Y-UZd3_BvNNmN
As some one who has played melee for a long time. No.
Melee doesnt need to die, but we need more games like melee
There Will never be a game like melee
I'd argue we need less. Too many platform fighters try to follow Melee too closely, to the point where the main series feels more unique than the rest of the genre.
We need platform fighters with depth, we do not need platform fighters that are like melee because melee does not represent the essence of depth for platform fighters, the aggressive aspect of it is the only part of it that is deep.
@@deathangeleas2401 I don’t know dude. Defensive options are pretty fucking insane in melee compared to the other smash games. Just watch the video on just OOS options alone from Hax or watch Wizzy’s SDI. There’s way more defensive depth that casual spectators never actually notice.
@@patrickminsch3813 There are definitely just as many if not more OOS options in the newer smash games and SDI in the way that melee and brawl do it are not defensive by default or even unique imo. Similar to crouch canceling (which is in every smash game and works the same way everytime) it just gives you an edge to survive longer then you normally would if you didn't use it.
We need to get slippy for project+ that would be INSANE
I would literally pay for this.
They're working on it. It's called brawlback
@@alfredusmagnus you WHAT
yoo same
@@alfredusmagnus fr?
Not a hot take, but straight fact: Project M deserves to get the Slippi treatment and get rollback netcode and all the fun tools added from modded Melee.
Yes. I'm trash but would be dumpstering it up in PM if I could. (And if I could find friends lol)
@@jakezepeda1267same, but hey, there is joy at the various levels of competitiveness, or if someone implemented minigames like the volleyball one or the brawlhalla ones, there would be much more options to enjoy these games, rather than plain random items and the classic competitive mode. And finding people to play in this era would be much easier to do, in places like discord you could arrange a matchup easier than ever before, I would try it if it wasn't for my potato of a computer, but later I will e.e... But it's perfect that Melee and the upcoming platform fighters will have rollback, rollback brings us together
@@jakezepeda1267 there are people already working on rollback at least
Weird take here:
Playing competitive melee isn’t about winning
It’s about going fast.
s t y l e
It's about Schlroovement
@@EDoyl I'm adding this to my vocabulary
Project plus is the greatest smash game of all time
This is true
I believe P+ supremacy
Yep, and it's not even close
Smash 2 👍
Amen brother
That last take wasn't even booty because of anything related to the game. It's more indicative of the character of the person in question. You gotta be pretty entitled to wish for people to just stop liking/enjoying something just because you don't like it.
This, this right here. It's literally the, "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE!" meme.
Make it so Doc gets OHKO'd by the apples on Green Greens
based
sabed
Also remove the shine it's way too strong
By the frame perfect thing I think they meant that the buffer system is non existent in melee so to do basic things perfectly you need to be frame perfect, as compared to other titles
Yea that’s probably what they meant.
If you play melee first then ultimate, the buffer make you want to pull your hair out. If you play ultimate first then melee, it feels clunky because you’re used to a buffer.
Every person that has ever said that melee is clunky and meant it are people who haven’t played the game for any more than like 5 hours. Everyone experiences it. I did and my friends did. The friends that stopped playing still think melee is clunky, the friends they kept playing don’t think it anymore.
@@itzmasterz I noticed that too, but now I have fun playing both melee and ultimate, it's fun changing between styles
@@Scharfster I definitely agree. I actually play both games too. I think some people take themselves to seriously when talking about the games separately. Ultimate is a great game. It’s fun to play one for a while and seamlessly switch between them.
Yeah. Ultimate's buffer is bad, but I'd take it over no buffer at all.
Takes some training lol but goes from clunky to pure speed 😈
Then again, Smash is mostly designed with a more casual oriented experience in mind. While yes, competitive aspects play a huge part in development, Sakurai and his team also wanted Ultimate to be a balance between casual and competitive play
Input lag ruins the casual experience, too, though.
I don’t think I’ve heard any causal ever say “Oh man why didn’t that move come out 7 frames faster!” I don’t think casuals would like the older games either cause they simply have clunkier movement unless you have a PhD in the schmovment.
@@caw64 no, but you do notice it. You might input a move then get frustrated in how long it takes for your character to respond. It’s laggy enough that a lot of players, even casual players, notice it. 7 frames is a long time, even for human reaction time.
They definitely tried to balance but kinda lukewarm in both sides imo. Causal for not having that much content once you beat WOL and Competitive made them mechanics and movement being safe and inconsistent especially with the patch notes being very little in terms of adjustments. Sorta feels like they were trying to let the casuals get into the competitive scene but that's just me.
Smash run and customs were by far the most fun I had in smash 4. Customs may have been broken as hell, but damn if they weren’t fun as hell too.
If customs were selectable when you chose your fighter on the character select screen, then customs would not have been put to the side, and we'd probably see them in tournament play and eventually in ultimate.
I also wish we could've had actual separate moves instead of just variations.
I enjoy watching melee, fucking hate playing melee.
As much as i like melee thats definitely a fair take. It takes a lot of time and commitment into melee before it starts feeling rewarding imo. Thats its biggest flaw i think
It makes sense, there are games that we enjoy watching more than playing because of our gameplay preferences.
fair, but spend more than a couple hours playing and you and your hands will likely get used to the lack of buffer if you want to really get into it. I'm the same with ultimate, fighting the buffer and input lag is like piloting a bluetooth apache attack chopper from the other side of the world on mcdonalds wifi, but I'm sure I'd get used to it if I just spent some extended time with it.
64 has Smash DI and those combos you get destroyed by are why I still play the game competitively to this day.
so who do you main
@@Dorriedude Mario
@@Dorriedude I get away with beating up on people with Low tiers but only in my Region. I'm the best in GA which is like being the best Ultimate player in Uganda.
@@dudemynameisdebo nice
Can you please give ganon a super wavedash called the demons shuffle
Demon dance.
Actually this would be cool
Hot Take: Melee Bowser is like a a week old egg sandwich
On Pokémon Stadium: It’s not just the infinite that makes it competitively questionable. It’s also the fact to on certain transitions, you can just clip through the stage and fall to your death.
that's kinda hype tho.
@@MetiCu Not if you’re the player who clipped through. I mean, do you want to lose a stock because of a glitch?
@@Exl6243 whooosh
The chances of that happening are way too low to be a plausible reason imo. Battlefield ledges are jank *way* more often
@@zekmaster644 It happens enough that it cost whole stocks. Both Zain and Plup fell victim to it
Hot Take: Sakurai is being held hostage by Nintendo to make shitty knockoff smash games based on his magnum opus Melee
Sakurai "said" in an interview that smash is a party game, yet posts on the old japanese melee dojo website about how to wavedash?
Intentionally adding complex mechanics into the game like L-Canceling, Smash DI, and even catching items?
There's even interviews I think of Sakurai talking about how Melee was supposed to be everything he wanted in smash 64?
Where did all his passion go?
*sees big scary Nintendo in the corner of the room*
Oh I understand, yeah sure... Melee and smash are just "party" games *wink* *wink*
All smash games are good.
If it’s still possible to say your hot take in this comment section to get featured in an hypothetical sequel, here’s mine:
Reflectors are extremely poorly designed moves. I’m mostly talking about ult since in melee zoners are really rare and I don’t have the game anyway, but they’re just cheap 1-dimensional moves that shuts down 90% of some characters gameplay that you as the projectile user need to constantly be aware of and play around at every second while the opponent just has to react and press their little button and poof you get heavily punished for trying to keep your position after throwing a single projectile. To punish one, you basically need to both get a big read (and you get punished if you were wrong) and also be in the optimal positions for it which means giving away positional advantage (for zoners being far away is the advantageous position). It completely shuts down projectile edgeguarding, frame trapping, and the ability to burn the opponent’s air dodge for just some specific characters. And just fundamentally a move which only purpose is to counter certain moves that some chars don’t even have and is completely useless or totally op depending on the matchup isn’t well designed. And it’s not like they give it to chars that actually could struggle to get in, only ddd kinda deserves one and he has by far the worst one. Like yeah of course it’s a good idea to give a reflector to Fox, one of the fastest chars in the game, falco, who has the highest jump in the game and can easily go over most zoning setups, joker and palu who are fricking top tiers and respectively are one of the most slippery character and already has plenty of anti-zoning options, and I could go in for ages.
-sincerely, a 1332 mii gunner main
Smash ain't good competitively play rivals of aether
I hate you because you speak the truth
Play Rivals and P+ at least they strike a good balance of ease and skill
That’s because you haven’t grinder super smash flash and obviously not SSF2
@@poordecisionsandworsesolut6397 I can find hot guys in SSF and SSF2!? Sign me up!
@@illford6921 also cuz rivals characters have good moveset design
Yeah, that smash run mode shoud have been in the Wii u package, the assets were there, what the heck happened there?! And why the heck they took out the Master hand and crazy hand modes? It was an Interesting mode that allowed you to strategized and win stuff for it.
I would have paid $5 to play smash run on wii u. They missed out big time.
@@jakezepeda1267 same, it sucks that it didn't got implemented in ultimate in some way, i would love if companies had a social section in which people were allowed to talk about stuff like these. It would be far much less annoying than receiving requests in tweeter and would actually make more sense. I would like to ask for various functional fixes.
Ultimate is a fantastic game, but melee IS the competitive smash. That’s what makes melee unique, ultimate isnt unique for its competitive scene
Can you please give Mr. game and watch a super wavedash called the sausage slide?
"It's asking alot out of a game meant for casual play and it fails at being casual since it's all just competitive"
Kind of why Nintendo doesn't support competitive play directly.
while I agree that melee doesn’t need to die, you do kinda need to be frame perfect to play melee. There really isn’t an input buffer system in melee unlike smash 4/ultimate/most modern games, which means that almost every consecutive input you do needs to be frame perfect or else you will be idle/doing nothing for however many frames you were off by.
Hot take, but Fox is actually one of the worst characters in the game. His weight allows him to be killed early, his only recovery options are linear meaning that he is easy to edgeguard, and his lasers which are "the best projectile in the game" don't even do damage. You can literally just walk through them and attack! If someone good at the game actually realized this and adapted, the rest of the community would agree. This is why the young beauty Hugs will be ranked #1 within the year
When in advantage, Fox is an absolute powerhouse, no doubt. But when you as much as breathe on him he dies instantly.
Yeah he’s a powerhouse when he gets in, but much like ganon, he will never get in on a good player
His recovery is less linear than 80% of the cast dude. Maybe in ultimate where you get brain dead recoveries every where but in melee you’re just an idiot for saying that.
@@Neogears1312 are you familiar with a concept called a 'joke' by chance?
Bro how is his recovery not linear? Up B and Side B are literally straight lines
This is straight cap (reverb)
Idk if this is a hot take or not, but L-cancelling is not a good game mechanic. With all other Melee tech it's not just simply better, there's some strategy to when to wavedash, dash dance, etc. But with L-cancelling, it's either use it, or get punished for no good reason.
Not a hot take
Get good?
@@SRM13 That's not the problem. L-cancelling is relatively easy, there's just no downside to removing it and making all aerials have half the landing lag by default
@@DaMrWiz sounds like a skill issue to me
@@DaMrWiz Just a troll, ignore them
Smash 4 is the least worth going back to in the series. 64 is the first and has the most different gameplay, Melee has it's crazy competitive techniques and speed, Brawl has the most side content, and Ultimate has every character. What does either Smash 4 have?
No melee will never die boys
Hot take: I’ve watched one p+ set in my life and it was pretty cool but the pure irrelevancy of the game’s scene pretty much guarantees that it’ll never be as popular as melee or ult.
Lmfao I didn't expect the end being so fast
If walls are otherwise hype besides the infinites, why not just remove the infinites instead of the walls?
smash ultimate lives up to its name in terms of balance and superiority over melee
Rivals of Aether
project+ is the best plstform fighter until it crashes for no reason
don´t get me wrong i love P+ but it's s bit buggy (not buggy enough to be bad game or unfun imo)
melee feel clunky ,then you understand why , and how to counteract it and then it goes too fast to able to process everything
yo its my birthday.
Thank you for the present
I planked through this entire video after to end my workout and my arms were shaking the entire time
You should make longer videos I love that pain
I wonder who was the dummy that said that Melee is a party game
More banger content as expected
THIS VIDEO MAKES HIM SOUND SO MUCH LIKE DUNKEY LOLOLOL
The Akenia mod for melee is the perfect experience because it means I can play Diddy on rollback. Only downside is frozen stadium is the only choice on rollback but eh what can you do it’s still fun. P+ with rollback tho mmmmm I need that.
If puff was a bit more heavy, it would be a very good offensive character
02:22 - I asked for a hot take, not a factual statement
Project plus/m is kinda better then vanilla melee.
Platform fighters should select characters first and reverse the counterpick system so that loser chooses "un-bans"
melee does feel extremely clunky for new players tho, once u get used to it tho its not at all, also p+ is the best game i wish it had rollback
I just realised you sound like Dunkey also more hottakes plz.
The hottest take would be that your mic is fine
Why is there so much input lag in smash ultimate?
likely due to the switch being underpowered and modern tv's stressing resolution and image quality over responsiveness and refresh rate and sakurai forgetting to give a fuck about making his game feel anything less like driving a semi from the other side of the world on a bluetooth connection using DK Bongos.
2:27 he sounded like Dunkey in this part lol
I think meteor cancelling is ok in some chars but they went a bit overboard
How about only meteor canceling with a midair jump if you've still got it
Worst part about melee is how every slippi kid got convinced the only way to play melee is to camp+ grind uncle punch.
Wish people just played for "fun" rather than whatever they think is most tournament viable
If you don't like Melee its because you haven't played enough Melee.
I’ve actually put quite the amount of time into Melee, completing the game, and I still stand by what I said about Melee being clunky. The nonexistent buffer system makes it hard to move for beginners which entirely takes away from it being the party game it was designed to be and makes it a product that fails to meet its goals
Melee haters find the most bullshit excuses to call the game trash and they get pissed off because they know playing melee takes more skill than playing brawl or ultimate that’s just what I think tho.
Hot take:
melee exists
Holy shit I was in a meticu vid
Currently scowering the comment section to see if I've been ratio'd
id argue that melees still just beginning :)
Yes, it is/topic.
Also project M/+ is not the best In the series, it has some good ideas though for characters (hence lucario, link, Lucas, etc.) it’s still just 80% melee with a few tweaks here and there.
If the only thing that makes Sm4sh and Brawl better competitively than Ultimate is shield dropping, then damn what have I been playing for the past 3 years?
a Nintendo party game same as all us bro.
Ultimate is trash in the context of lag, teching or pretty much any move sucks because of lag, so yes, it is unresponsive, therefore it sucks. But it has the best roster and it's way faster than Smash 4(but smash 4 had more responsive controls imo, i'd rather have that responsiveness here in ultimate than what we got) . Hopefully they pull it off again with an optional model like multiversus or KI of a "Game as a service" so much more people consume on the dlc's outside only being able to buy a whole roster if you only want to play Steve or something like that...
ult is the worse competitively not even a contest, every single character feels so bland the movement is bland there is nothing enticing to keep a player going, ult would better w infinites, chain grabs, etc the only thing ult has going for it is that is the most balanced smash game out of the 80 characters
You’re welcome for WAAAAAH-
Hell yeah P+
So, as a noob I need to ask: what is it that makes ultimate a bad competitive Smash?
I’ll keep saying it but pm and p+ are not good competitive games but they are very fun
2:25 On my opinion, rivals seems a MUCH more interesting competitve game than project+ for one simple reason the characters are much more diverse and unique
Sauceless... ?
ultimate is poorly designed and executed and that's not even an opinion
Rivals of Aether >>>>>> any other platform fighter/Smash-like
I get the art style being a turn-off for people, but mechanically tho???
Also Workshop lol
The hell was my Smash 4 hot take?
melee doesnt need to die, yeah.
personally i cant stand smash ultimate's gameplay and meta etc, i think they're less comparable than like Melee vs Rivals of Aether
There’s no world where 64 is worse than ultimate.
No
Can we have apple bottom jeans back?
1:06 that's complete BS
All I hear is truth🐒🐒🦓🦒🦒⚠️⚠️!!
Ssf2 is the worst smash bros fangame
Fuck Ultimate. Melee 4 life! 🤣🤣🤣
Yo
Not necessarily melee, but the community behind melee because they have garnered so much notoriety and have used that to make it seem like melee the game is a flawless masterpiece that not only is the peak of not just platform fighters, but just fighting games and their community in general. So many games including games in it’s own series like smash 4 and ultimate are far more enjoyable to learn, play and more big brain then melee ever could be. If you care a lot about being technical or whatever play king of fighters, Tekken or like I said earlier Ultimate because melee technical prowess and depth is mostly in aggressive gameplay. Camping is not deep in melee, zoning isn’t deep in melee, the most used and viable playstyle that has a lot of depth (especially because of Fox and falco) of the meta is rush down and bait punish. It is not the best game competitively and it’s not even the best experience in the fighting games genre overall.
I don't think you've hung around the melee community enough, our schtick is that we complain and are amazed about how imperfect melee is lmao. A perfect game, which ultimate is closer to reaching, would be incredibly boring and have zero depth.. That's not Melee's appeal. It's using it's imperfectness to achieve perfection. Camping and zoning in general is not meant to be deep, and at ultimate's core is the same thing that's existed since Melee even 64 is baiting and punishing, like camping and zoning are ALSO just one massive bait.
@@queuedjar4578 bro you literally just made the ladder half of your paragraph up, that is literally not true at all and the fact that you can say it with so much certainty is proof of why the first part of your paragraph is not true either. How the fuck do you make literal perfection without the other playstyles that makes fighting games fighting games? Melee has and will never be able to force its will through you and the community to naturally somehow making everyone else think that it is an underrated masterpiece of competitive gaming.
And yes I’ve been around in the smash community for a very long time so I would fucking know, melee dipshit.
@@deathangeleas2401 Jeez that turned hostile real quick, I don't even know how if any aggression came off through my context-less text but please simmer for a moment.
First off, yes, camping and zoning is a bait, 99% of fgc is conditioning your opponent into doing what you want or narrowing their options into doing something less safe to get openings, and that's bait. No one just goes into fighting games hoping the opponent will just put down the controller and let you kill them. And we might have a different definition of perfect. I don't want a game where every single attack does the same exact damage across players at the same frame data with the same hitboxes, because then all depth is removed, perfect games suck.
And Melee is not underrated, it's rated exactly how it should be in my opinion. It's highly rated among everyone who encounters it, because it's flashy and cool and a difficult game with lots of history and depth. This means it requires a lot of attention and dedication, meaning those willing to dedicate themselves to it get as much as they put in, and understandably those who don't want to can exist peacefully.
I don't know where you get this idea, either people are elitist about it ironically, or the truth is the melee community literally doesn't care about this point it gets fucked from every angle (including within) regardless and will continue to live on, and WILL live on, longer than any Smash game and probably the majority of fighting games.
I don't like to assume and point fingers, but maybe you're undergoing a bit of a projecting. You're acting a lot more elitist and gatekeeping than I am my guy. All you have done so far is effectively call me stupid and all my arguments are invalid because, though I may be newer than you (as new as someone who has played melee since 2005 can be), as the tendency is with the healthy introduction of new dedicated people to a scene, we can bring fresh and unique outlooks and inputs on things. Give me some info, something to digest instead, don't just show me the door man.
@@queuedjar4578 Alrighty so I had to reread the whole thread cause Im like mad tired and I think it was at like 4 or some shit that I said all that and I was just like feeling kinda moody and so I apologize for being agro and condescending. I try to correct melee players for doing this exact same thing when these conversations usually come up and generally I tend to keep a level a head about this shit cause its just games bro like its not that crazy, but also it kind've is obviously cause these are games that we love and they're all good I feel in a competitive sense at the end of the day and its just my personal belief and whatever. (still tired lol so bare with me)
I'll try to address my point of view as much as I can and as short as I can cause like its 7 am where I am and yeah.
So about the Zoning in camping thing, I think anyone who is just getting into fighting games in generall understand this concept generally which is that rushdown, zoning and camping are all super different and have diverse sub categories that exist within any roster in any game. I don't feel like I should have to explaing this, but for the purpose of being crystal clear all just go over each of the three and leave at that: Rushdown is all about overwhelming and hard punishing your opponent and that most complex version of this is when a character has the tools (like wavedashing in melee in general or specifically the characters who do it the best being Fox and Falco) to also outmaneuver their opponent as much as possible with fast movement and quick methodical CQC to insure your getting your hits in while also not really hit. some really good examples of this also are characters like ZSS and Joker in ultimate as well (honestly ZSS in smash 4 was a little because she doesn't always have to rely on raw hits just get damage like it ult, but its still fun imo). Zoning/mid-range combat is likely what your talking about or at least a variation of zoning where you keep neutral at a mid-range stance trying to find openings and baiting the opponent to make mistakes in order to get said openings, easiest example of this that is not smash for once is guile who is a charge character who mostly plays at the mid-range and flash kicks you if you get near him until eventually he his charge and goes in for his damage, Zoners can also just kinda play between aggressive and campy depending on the person it's kinda just the beauty of zoners they tend to be the marriage of the other two pollar opposites so yeah. And finally campers lmao, the people that everyone fucking hates for just playing the character correctly like fucking dabuz with rosalina in both games (smash 4 and Ult) where they don't really approach at all and beat you by war of attrition whether it be with projectiles or if your Min Min where your you literally extend you arms across the whole stage or all the way to the blast zone lol. It's essentially a wall, wall that they can go on the otherside, but you can't because they make the fortress and its the other players job especially if you are a rushdown player to breach that wall and break all their defenses because most of the time once that happens they dont really have a way to deal with you in close quarters cause thats what their fortress covers. Theres also obviously the jacks of all trades or your occasional stance character who encompasses all three playstyles and are a class of their own, but Im sure this paragraph already feels rambly and pointless.
Main point is, most playstyles (especially in smash) are not short or long bait punish playstyles really they're all different I would say and bait punish overall is tactic that can be implemented into all of them, but especially with like camping and rushdown sometimes, it won't be as effective as just "playing to not get hit" because its not really playing to the characters strengths tbh. There has been some discourse in some melee conversations that because of shine alone and how much Falco and fox benefit from wavedashing (not as much as luigi obviously, but still) that they both are potentially a master-of-all trades/stance characters in melee, but like I said they don't get as much from lasers as they do from a raw wavedash shine or an uptilt or something, they are very complex rushdown characters which I give credit to melee for having because they are probobly the juciest characters in the game compared to everyone else by a lot a lot since most of the characters aside from them are relatively imo.
I feel like that second/third paragraph is just kind've saying something that reminds me of what Leffen has said once at a summit which was something along the lines of like "We're all crazy for playing this game the way that we do", riding off of the bias of ig the person saying it would imply that if you care about the game that much or something then it's on you that you didn't get as good as you felt you should have??? idk, but like the game doesn't just have a high skill floor its just actually a fucking frustrating game and even if you get good like actually you consistently wavedash, you know how to ledgedash, you know some combo extensions on platforms, etc EVEN THEN the game is fucking annoying as shit for no reason and its not because like "like if you wanna git gud you have to be on point" its like sometimes its unnecessarily strict the way the game works and its not good for the player to push themselves for this game and like thats why this game has is been dying imo since leffen won evo cause the main storyline is over, this game can only stand with the community backing it otherwise this game would have died even before leffen won evo, like way before (like probobly when smash 4 was popping off) so yeah idk bro.
Anyway, I think that covers mostly everything, again sorry for wasting any time in this fuckin youtube comment section. I understand that like this topic in the community is so heated and stigmatized within the community that new players once they find out about it are almost too afraid to even bring it up cause it just instantly causes like this wave of discord in the call, group, thread, etc making it difficult to see others perspectives and approach it with nuance, so theres a more in depth breakdown of it and again sorry come off that way I hate when melee players do with their extreme ass bias for the game and I shoulda just started with this. Have a good one and enjoy the smash experience.
Pro controller > Gamecube
And melee has the worst visuals out of any smash game (even 3DS & 64)
Yes, ultimate is doggy doo doo
but 64 is the best :(
Ssf2 is better than project plus.
Fight me
Smash should get the "Game as a service treatment", asking 60 bucks for a roster of almost 100 characters including third party ones, plus extra content it's just not gonna be that reliable. If they gave us an option of buying an amount of characters for x amount of money, or an individual character, that would be great 👍, that and giving me tons of customizable stuff like skins and the like, it surprises me that they haven't tried this at this point. Hopefully they do it in a sequel if multiversus and project L proves them that such practice work.
Can't wait SSBG: Enter the Gachaverse.
I think that Nintendo has always had a philosophy of games being sold as a total experience (relatively) and transitioning to a game as a service model wouldn’t be in their vision. Plus their games are so exclusive they have no real pressure to innovate, multiversus won’t touch them and project L is a different type of fighting game entirely
@@eliastew9636 what's project L?
@@eliastew9636 i would incline to think the same, but in the case of project L, it might not affect them directly, but indirectly it can, considering that Namco is the one who develops the game since the Wii U, and they also develop Tekken and that it competes in the traditional fighter market, it can affect some decisions like the implementation of rollback netcode for that genre, and if it can do that for them, it might affect on other decisions like skins. But as you say, nintendo really doesn't care, so getting at least getting good netcode would be difficult comming from their mindset, much less the skin aspect. But it does leave the question, would they get all characters again plus more for 60 bucks? Will they make their games cost more to compensate on that? Time will tell. But in the longrun i would argue they'll end up getting the features of these games, like...in the real long run ... damn old people e.e
I gave a scorching take on ultimate being dogshit, I thought this vid would mention it
Better than Brawl but still boring as all heck to watch
I find it ok to watch. But damn the game as a whole is worse purely because the single player is much worse, WoL is not as interesting, no break the targets. Stupid
Honestly at least brawl had Meta Knight who was actually cool but he was too cool for everyone else, MK dittos were actually kinda heat and any games without him or ICs aren't too bad. Even then brawl at least had shield dropping
Imo I find my self tapping out from smash ultimate was faster than melee or p+ simply because of the movement. Idk why but ultimate feels hella clunky to me
@@illford6921 also brawl was the last smash game that is so broken that every character has their cool and unique techs
Melee, while interesting to watch, is a terrible game that needs to die. The movement is clunky unless you're frame perfect which is asking a lot out of a game meant for casual play. The game fails at being a casual party game and ends up being a competitive mess
now THAT is a bad take
Get UCF.
"this game needs to die because i dont know how to play it" 😐😐😐
@@kevwox I mean he's half right. It's a bad party game, if you want to party just play any game after melee which had more casual content. Competitively the game is held back by being very strict and not having a lot of actually good characters. If you wanna play a more lenient and balanced melee there are options, P+ is very similar but it's not the same and there are some things changed you may not like, and Rivals whilst missing a grab still manages to be fun with competitively and casually due to its whorde of mods. Melee is a very fun game to watch and play but it can be strict and dies have it's pitfalls.
Overall I'd give it 8/10 very solid game not perfect tho.
LOLOLOLOL
Sephiroth is the best addition to Smash EVER. How about it?
L Cancelling sucks and Melee has too much hitstun so combos feel unearned a lot of the time, also the ledge is bullshit and there should be better defensive options
Melee is the least interesting Smash game to watch
64 has some nice combos and the combo contest is there
Brawl has some stupid stuff that honestly makes the game fun
Smash 4 has more interesting combos and more interesting jank
Ultimate has every character viable which honestly makes the game more fun to watch
A genuine hot take: Wobbling should be legal and the people who complain about it need to learn how to beat it
They said hot not nuclear fusion temp
dumbest shit ive ever read