What is a Tihai?
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- Опубліковано 16 тра 2024
- Time Consuming Ep #31: Indian classical music has such a dominant rhythmic tradition and the concept we'll discuss today is awesome! Tihais are a big part in Indian classical music and borrowing into a western environment is absolutely amazing!
1:07 - Some Background
3:36 - Tihai explanation
6:47 - The Pot (Tool)
8:57 - Berklee Indian Ensemble
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Spotify playlists:
The "Time Consuming" playlist has all songs covered in the channel.
open.spotify.com/playlist/63v...
The "Time Consuming Suggestions" playlist has all the suggestions I got from you guys in the comments, plus a bunch of options I've put in.
Some of them may not have polyrhythms, and I'll delete them slowly once I go over it all!
open.spotify.com/playlist/064...
This video is obviously just the beginning of this concept, and there's a lot more to it. If you'd want to dive deeper, feel free to contact me at gabayyogev@gmail.com
'The Pot' original song:
• Gabriel Kahane - Bradb...
'5 Peace Band' original video:
• Berklee Indian Ensembl...
'Unnai' original video:
• Berklee Indian Ensembl...
HUGE HUGE thanks to the amazing Sharon Renold for all the help in production, after effects, thumbnails and being awesome
And lastly, HUGE thanks to Omer Gabay, my brother, for all the tremendous production help!
If you have recommendations for songs for this channel, send them over!
gabayyogev@gmail.com
Thanks for watching, Yogev
Instagram: @yogev.gabay.haorginal
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Intro by Sharon Renold (@sharonrenold on Instagram) and myself
Intro music by Shwesmo (@shwesmo on Instagram)
#musiceducation #polyrhythms #Indianmusic
Tool's The Pot came in completely unexpected, wow.
Well Danny Carey did study percussion in Calcutta, and does do a lot of indian rhythms in his sections.
Not for me… …Because I read the f**king description. 😎😎😎😎 (THUG LIFE-)
Danny Carey is pretty much the God of non western percussion style
Wow, I've been interested in alternative time signatures for years but have never found someone who explains them in such a fun and clear way. Thank you
Wow, thank you!
The Berkeley Indian Ensemble!! That's where I recognize your from!
Hahahahahahahahaha epic!
Me too!
Right?! How cool! Wait, does that mean you worked on the song Drip with Tigran?!?!
@@brandonmonroe9822 Hell yeah !! Played drums there together with my brother Maxime Cholley !
Indian rhythms are so slick. Really enjoy the Konnikol drum-talking too.
I find writing rhythms to fall into place on the 1 really helps create grooves in odd time signatures, just work backwards to make that 1 satisfying, essentially.
A super simple demonstration is, instead of cutting off your polymeter at the end, start it late so it ends up on the 1, or whatever note you wanna emphasize, gets even more interesting with a weak 1.
this channel is pure gold, please never stop!
That's filled a few gaps in my drumming knowledge , and I've been at it for a lot of years .Teaching myself mainly but have always been interested in this kind of stuff. Fantastic work !
In both Tihai videos, we hear them described as "polyrhythms". But to my understanding. polyrhythms always begin at 1 and circle back around to start at 1 (essentially tuplets on top of one another). These Tihais seem to be a representation of "polymeter". They are a meter of say 7/8 on top of 4/4, or a meter of 12/16 on top of 5/4, etc.
No wonder you're from Berkley. Beautifully explained man.
This is the best explanation of tihai (chakradhar) I have come across (and I play pakhavaj - a barrel drum for Indian classical music).
Thanks a lot !
I agree that this video is an excellent explanation... however, it is not Chakradhar Tihai -- it's Anagat Tihai. Chakradhar is when the final note of the third repetition falls on Beat 1 (Sam)... Anagat is when the three repetitions are completed before Beat 1 (Sam). That's as I understand it.
THANK YOU! This is one of the most interesting concepts in rhythmic music!
please more Tihais and Konnakol!!
Nice ... the basis for this topic is much simpler ... but difficult to explain... 3 and 2 relationship which is natural .... the Indian classical musicians created this idea ... long story ! All ethnic music has these ideas but in a very simple way the Indians discovered the cycles of time and created linear math which we still use today as well as they gave us the NUMERAL which are still know as ARABIC but that is incorrect .... hopefully we will update knowledge soon before quantum computers are here ... it is a white Greco Roman tradition that dominates the west and most of the world and has blocked us from knowing these truths ... still with the advent of the web it’s very difficult to get to this information but there is always hope. Keep up the good work and if you have any questions please answer this message and I will be glad to help . Sincerely !
Holy crap, I've seen the 5 Peace Band video many times and just now I realized it was you! 🤯
great teaching Yogev
I made a rhythmic analysis video on 8+5 by Steve Smith, cool stuff happends in this song including but not limited to Tihais. When I first hear this song I couldn't tell what was going on in the Tihai parts, once I learned some Konnakol basics (with Asaf Sirkis' videos) I was able to understand it. I liked your way to explain it a lot!
WAHH!!!!! Great breakdown
I really enjoyed that. I'll be listening out for these now, and will experiment myself.
Can't stop binging your videos! Looks like a ton of work goes into this, thank you!
I just discovered your channel and i looove it!
I just found your channel and am binging everything. You explain these complicated rhythmic concepts very well. Looking forward to more!
Great content!
Clearly explained. Great content
This. Is. AMAZING! More videos on Indian music pleaseeeeee!
Amazing explanation. Thanks for sharing 🙏🌺🫶🏽
Hey! I discovered your channel a few days ago and I've been binge watching your videos. I studied musical education and your methods are a million times better and more didactic than the methods I learnt in university.
Also, now I'm studying indian classical music by myself, and I would LOVE IT if you make more videos about it.
Thank you for your amazing content!! Saludos desde Chile :)
Oh, and I have to recommend you an ensemble from my region. It's called Antonio Monasterio Ensamble, they play a fusion between jazz and latin american music, including a turkish oud, a bulgarian kaval, and do some crazy rhythmic stuff too. Their album is full on youtube, please check it out!
That's awesome! and I sure will keep putting on more Indian content !
Man they sound great!
This is fucking amazing man. So glad I found your channel - such a great presentation of these musical ideas!
Crazy good video Yogev. You create all the videos with topics I always liked to explain. And with humor and with great explanation. Credits!!
I really enjoy these videos, thank you for massaging my brain with fun musical ideas
Thanks. Good description.
This was SO insightful. I really appreciate all the effort you put in all your videos. I've recently discovered your channel and I became an instant fan haha. Greetings from Argentina!
hi Yogev, i'm a very big fan of your channel as well as your collab works.
i'm very new to Indian music theory structure and not quite comfortable with complex rhythm, but I eager to learn!
I really tried to slow down the video and figure out the Tihais in the examples you gave, here's my understanding, hope you can give a look!
In the first kind of Tihais, you already break down the drum fill, so I will give the second kind of Tihai's examples an explanation:
First one:
A whole big phrase is two-and-a-half beat long (♩ ♩. ): where phrase = 1 beat (♩) and gap = 1,5 beat (♩. ). So the Tihai phrases in the bass solo starts at: the 5; the "and" between 2 and 3; and other 5 (" " marks where the phrase starts):
♩ ♩ ♩ ♩ "♩"| ♩. "♩" ♩. "♩"| 1
OR
1 2 3 4 "5" | 1 2 "&" 3 4 "5" | 1
Second one:
A whole big phrase look like this (♩. ♩. ♪ ♪. = 17 sixteenth notes): where phrase = ♩. ♩. ♪ and gap = ♪.
So the Tihai phrases starts at: the 1; the "and" between 9 and 10; and the 6 in second bar:
"♩." ♩. ♪ ♪. + "sixteenth note" + ♩. | ♩. ♪ ♪ "♪" ♩. ♩.|1
OR
"1" 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 "&" 10 11 12 | 1 2 3 4 5 "6" 7 8 9 10 11 12 | 1
An epic video!
I’m so happy I found ur channel
Hi brother. I just stumbled upon your channel by watching the Combustion breakdown which simply left me amazed by your teaching skills. Then I dug some more only to find you're a freaking monster on drums as well. Instant sub! Keep these coming! Also if I may, can you do a similar breakdown to the beginning pattern from "The art of dying" by Gojira? That would be amazing! Cheers!
Ohhh thanks man!
And hell yeah, putting that song in the list!
Three is the key!
So nice.
The first video on YT with 0 dislikes.
New Sub here (yesterday, after watching Combustion video) and excited to see this video! Huge fan of Indian Classical music (mostly Hindustani)
It is Divine Music
Welcome aboard!
Yogev!! You're killing it again. Awesome video, awesome editing and excellent explanations! It's always a joy to learn from you. I would love to see more content on Indian rhythms, especially with regard to konnakol etc. I really appreciate the effort you put into your videos. It's absolutely worth every second of it!
Thanks a lot Lukas! I'm gonna include more Indian concepts for sure!
I just found your channel, and your explanations are so clear that you’ve given me hope of learning to play these spectacular and mysterious rhythms.
Welcome aboard!
I have never seen your channel until recently and I must say that apart being very interesting the way of presenting things with paper and cardboard is pure genius!
Welcome aboard! Thanks a lot!
This is channel is a great find (and I really enjoy the way you deliver the content). I'm really stuck in traditional western style writing and have been wanting to learn more about other cultural approaches to break out of this. Thank you!
Welcome aboard! More of this to come
Great video, but... I only wish you had specified that this is the Anagat form of Tihai... I was quite confused watching this video, because I was previously only familiar with the Chakradar Tihai. I hadn't realized that there is this other Tihai form, so it sent me on quite a googling mission. The good part is now I know. Regardless, this is a fantastic video with fun, clear explanation and super examples. Thank you for posting.
Thanks for bringing that up !
Finally, something new to add to my repertoire of Things To Find In Rhythm Game Music And Then Tell Literally Everyone I Know About!!
Awesome
So interesting! Thanks for explaining this. I stumbled across the Berkley Indian Ensemble a couple of months back and enjoyed the music so much. I never realized that you played with them.
Look up Drip by Tigran Hamasayan at Berklee - shit will melt your face right off.
Oh man that was such a session damnnnn
COOL!
Indian here . Unable to wipe the grin off my face since I heard the tihai from The Pot ! Brilliant ! Ready to spam whatsapp with this clip !
hahahaha BBEESSTT
Dude I knew I had seen you somewhere! I'm an absolute fan of the 5 peace band you guys did at Berklee! Can't believe I saw so much of your content without realizing it's you!
Ohhhh yes! love that group man !
Dude I end to watch your last video and I was thinking about that I need something like THIS! are you reading my mind? you're amazing!
hahhahaha Perfect!
great
This was so good. Would love to see more videos on Eastern music theory and applications to the drumset.
Noted!
I realize now that the first few seconds of Sol Niger Within is a Tihai. It's an elegant little pattern of one single followed by three doubles where the last note is also the first.
the art of tihai!!! so difficult to do it any time in any context!! i can't do it without calculating it in improvisation
what can i do to to it each time naturally in time with sam?
greatly xplained!!!!
Thanks !
bagus sekali videonya ! Matur suksma
I’m sad that I can only give one thumbs up.
♥
"Did a vehicle, did a vehicle, did a vehicle come..." - FZ
what a useful concept!
I know konnakol is not Hindustani, but could you make a video on it?
I'm gonna explore some more indian stuff yeah, I may go into konnakol as well, not sure yet
this channel is a gift! Nir nakav 2.0
He's the king of all kings. I love that guy!
That’s so sick
as always, awesome!! thank you so much!!
btw:isn't sharon the best bass player ev'Ar?! ahahahah
Hahahahahhahahhahhaa of course she is. But Guy's my friend, I didn't want him to feel left out. Don't tell him.
Quick question - the two examples at the end seemed to end on beat one, which was how I understood Tihai until now, but the 3x5 example ended at the end of the bar. Should it start on the 3rd sixteenth so that it ends on the one (14 sixteenths in bar one with the 15th on beat one) or are there regional variations like konnakol? Great channel, learning a lot :-)
So it depends if you're referring to the tihai with the gaps or the ones without. The tihai WITH the gaps end ON beat 1. The tihais WITHOUT the gaps end right before.
@@YogevGabay Thank you :-) That’s my new thing learnt for today!
Now I need Berklee Indian Ensemble live in Europe >_
Or at least a full video on "5 peace band" :Ъ
Oh man I hope this happens quickly
Maravilloso, por favor analiza algo de hiatus kaiote!!
Was looking for a song by them yes!! Have any suggestions?
Holy shit! I didn't know you were from the Berklee Indian Ensemble! Now you look familiar! I think I recognize you from Drip by Tigran!
Hell yeah man! Such a fun video!
Great video, very clear. But the examples you give are mostly about tihais played on percussive instruments of some sort (except the bass one).
So I wonder if there're any tihais you know played on something not percussive? The only thing that springs to my mind is one of the tricks Tigran employs on the piano, but there might be others.
Also, vocals tihais are cool (the one in "Unnai" was great), but they're not instrumental in my view.
Oh for sure.
There are some cool vocal ones in "SATI" from coke studios, check it out!
I just listened to the new Meshuggah album and found a tihai! (At least I think it is)
It appears at around 3:14 and later too in the song the Faultless.
HAHAHA YYYEEESSSSSSSSSSSSS amazing
0 dislikes, exactly as it should be
The Beatles used the hindu Tihai rhythm in the song Here Comes the Sun.
Why did it took so long to find you ? :)
8:44 Yes, I did!!!! 😂😂😂😂
Hi! Cool channel but.... For it to be a true TIHAI it needs to end on the first beat (as you mentioned), so you need to start one 16th later in your example if you want to make a continuos tihai. You can also add an equal amount of space in between the phrases and, for instance, start on the one of the previous bar, but you cannot end before the one. That's not a Tihai.
Yes, you are right!
can we use it in a meshuggah type setting?? please show us the way,if possible
FO SHOOOO
Even bedam tihai end with the last beat of the phrase on the first beat of the new cycle? So in your tihai version 1, "one" should land on the first beat of the next bar?
No no, so the bedam tihai RESULTS at beat 1, meaning it completes BEFORE beat 1.
If you were to start a 4th repetition of the phrase, it would have started on beat 1.
Is this clearer?
@@YogevGabay I think I see my confusion, as I interpreted your phrase as "landing" on the last syllable (to me the bol DHA) whereas you're thinking of the first syllable as being a "resolution" point. Straight line text is notoriously terrible at conveying rhythmic divisions (especially for an oral tradition sung so matras are felt), but I'm seeing the difference thusly:
DHA ti dha DHA ti dha DHA ti dha DHA (closer to what you explain in the video)
vs.
dha ti DHA dha ti DHA dha ti DHA
Completely bedam, they are the "same" sets of notes, but the musical phrase is different, and I think my confusion came from privileging the second (dha ti DHA) as the musical phrase over the first (DHA ti dha). To me, the second is more natural on tabla, but I can see for a swara instrument how useful the first one could be!
Thanks, Yogev! Huge fan, and very happy to see you exploring music and rhythms so close to my heart (a Meshuggah fan since 1998 and a tabla student since 2003)!
@@andydstuart Yeah man it's so hard to explain! that DHA at the end is BOTH the sum AND the "gap" if you will. So the damdar tihais can sound like they're cut "short" but with the gap formula it works. I hope this makes sense!
Hey, is there such a thing as a deceptive tihai, like how in western music there are deceptive cadences? In unnai the motif where the singers sing what sounds like the title of the song gets repeated twice a little while before the tihai you mention in the video. If it repeated a third time, it sounds like it would land on one. Even if thats not actually an example, do you know if this exists? And of course this video is awesome
Oh wow that's a great question. And honestly I don't know! I will definitely ask
Man, will you make the explaination of 7empest?_?
Will put it on my list!
@@YogevGabay yeeey!!! Love you, man!
A mpouzouki in an Indian group? 😮
Danny Carey sprinkles these throughout most of the things he plays so seamlessly it almost slips by you unless you're specifically looking for it - I think he's actually internalised playing like this naturally in a way that would take me a calculator and a couple of days to work out just for one fill. I feel like there's a burgeoning interest in the 'western' music over the last ~20 years that is starting to accelerate when it comes to incorporating more of the Indian rhythmic concepts. Because Eastern & Indian music as you point out uses melody very differently to the western music tradition, a lot of the virtuosos of that music tradition is paid very little attention here in "the west" which is extremely sad. I am hopeful it's starting to change for the better though. Obviously prog-style genres has been incorporating it for a while, but I think we're seeing more mainstream adoption and interest now.
I also think a lot of modern pop music is increasingly using rhythmic variance rather than melodic/harmonic to sound unique - one of the complaints I hear often is that modern popular music all "sounds the same". I think this has been the case for most popular music throughout most periods, however, the dramitic shift that some people aren't yet paying attention to is that rhythm is increasingly becoming more important than melodic variance. At least, that's my current pet theory.
Yup Danny Carey is very influenced by this, true, and I'm super happy the western world also started getting into this!
I agree with what you're saying. And all these traditions that have advanced melodic and rhythmic music are a goldmine for musicians who dig deep.
Holy shit dude, didn't know you've played with Shankar Mahadevan :O
Oh man it was EPIC
Was that shankar mahadevan at 9:22?
Hell yeah !
why that person dont like this?
Reverse polymeter pog
How did you get into all this Indian music theory?
Well I play in an Indian group so kinda learned from the guys there!
@@YogevGabay yeah I figured as much. I come from a classical Indian family. My brother is a trained tabla player. It was just me that was into metal and djent and stuff. But as I got older I found out there is not much difference in the classical and the direction modern progressive metal has taken. I mean Devin Townsend admits to learning soloing from Pandit Ravi Shankar.
If you could make some content on bridging these two worlds, that would be incredible.
I will have some more of these for sure yes !
Ludwig acrolite?
True
the last phrase are 7/8 plus 3/16 ?
Unnai?
I counted the first two phrases as 17/8 (as 5/4 + 7/8) and the last phrase as 7/4
been loving ur videos though ive never commented.. check out the song 'Tihai for the straight guy' by the band 'consider the source' if u get a chance..
Thanks man. Will check it out!
Tihai Yogev, how are you? :)
Hi Arthur. I've heard you have a girl friend.
@@YogevGabay yes it's kind of fresh so we'll see how that goes
@@arthurfurman5362 Good luck man, the beginning is easy, I hope you guys make it.
@@YogevGabay that's what they say, thx man ♥️
I have one!
So does Ariana Grande...
Who is she? Is she Indian? She went to Berklee?
Those are the only people I know.
wupwup wuum