Bjorn has shown many times that stopping at 10% and charging to 60% twice is much faster than driving to a very low SOC and going to 90%. A two shortstop strategy is better than one long stop for other reasons as well. Both the comfort of the driver and passengers as well as to avoid issues if a charger fails as there is enough charge for plan B but not if the long drive to a low state leaves you stranded.
@@djwarren5081 It’s easy. Have a large Starbucks coffee before you start and when you need a wee you charge the car at the same time (and get another coffee). Repeat as required. :)
The amount of power going into the car isn't exactly the amount the battery gets, it depends how efficient the car is with managing that power. A lot can be lost to heat for example. Bjorn Nyland does some good videos comparing the efficient in that regard! :)
exactly, plus, Tesla is heating battery, as Bjorn Nyland demonstrated so many times, many cars do that too, so charger must show more energy used than actually went into battery. Bjorn also did a test of charging efficiency (at least it gives a guideline) at various charging speeds, etc.
So the charger reports the energy delivered and the vehicle reports the energy that went into the battery. Sounds right to me as there are some losses associated with the charging process. No surprises here. I expect the amount of energy loss will increase for faster charging rates.
@@hawolex2341 using my now sold bmw 318d as a reference point, managed 72mpg which would equate to 1,300km range on 1 full tank, yes would cost more, but im still waiting on more efficient higher energy lower cost batteries to come out
I was returning home from visiting my sister last night and stopped at a Tesla V3 supercharger that’s capable of up to 250kW charging. I was at 6% when I plugged in and hit a max rate of 233kW!! In about 10-11 min I was at 50% state of charge. Unplugged and continued my trip. It feels great to see a charging stop come close to a gas fueling stop from a temporal standpoint
@@rjbiker66 I own a 2020 Model 3 and it’s capable of up to 250kW charging rates. I plugged in at a very low state of charge and maxed out at 233kW. I couldn’t believe it myself. Funny thing is that when I plug into the 150kW units, I rarely get close to the full rate of 150kW. It’s possibly because I usually don’t let my car get that low on charge
You mentioned a lack of passing power in eco mode. There is a button switch under the gas pedal. If you push the pedal all the way down and get past that switch it will kick it out and give you full power regardless of the mode you have selected.
Great video, regarding discrepancies, it is charging losses. The chargers delivered more than the car took, because some is lost in heat and energy conversion. Conversion of energy from electrical to chemical is not 100% efficient.
Superchargers are not made for charging car up to 100% instead you just charging it for reach next supercharger! That way you will cover the distance much faster
13:30 Ionity charge delievered shows A/C usage and other electronics. Inside the car for the Tesla it shows the amount of charge into the battery only. That is the reason why the ionity charger shows a higher armount of KWh delivered
@@Robert-cu9bm I agree with you. It's nearly impossible to push EVs to the general public that lives in apartments and don't have access to a plug at their residence. Unless the government is going to mandate something along those lines there is a long way to go.
@@Robert-cu9bm Indeed Robert. I've read about people arriving at chargers that don't work. Another reason that folk come to the conclusion that a Tesla with the Supercharger network is currently the best option.
Should have done a "slash and dash" on the Ionity, then used the V3 at Mansfield. Would have charged fast and had no range/speed issue. But, this was better than the (stupid) Carwow "run to empty" test.
100% agree, I actually feel like this is a disadvantage for Tesla. Ionity chargers are literally owned by Volkswagen and the other automakers, so of course, they are going to be more optimized for their cars. Same with Teslas and their superchargers. I mean, I don't actually care that much, but I feel like this fact makes the charging competition pretty irrelevant.
@@NormanGaming196 Tesla Superchargers are leagues ahead of ionity. More locations and more stalls each location. And the in-car nav will take you there whenever you need to charge. No faffing with an app or remembering passwords. Just press the button and plug it in.
Yes they could have stopped at the tesla superchargers at the back of the hotel near washington services and the vw could have popped into the services to charge up
Great real world example, my bladder would have required more stops than those cars actually need. So to be safe, responsible anything that can travel over 3 hrs on a motorway is great really.
The discrepancy between kWh delivered by the charger and the kWh added to the battery (which is what the TM3 shows on its screen) is the energy lost on heat in the internal electronics, cables and internal battery resistance which varies by the current temperature of the cells. Also, most modern EVs use some energy to warm up the battery during charging to be able to increase the charging speed and/or protect the cells.
I guess you could have been much quicker by including additional one or two short charges for example from 5% to 40% in 15 minutes rather than charging to 100%.
Yea and I comment that we did the drive up with less than hour charging and still arrived with 30% in the Long Range because we made multiple quick stops
What people don't take into account with this method is the several minutes it takes getting off the highway and then back on. Some chargers are RIGHT off the highway which is great but others are 5-10 minutes off and then 5-10 minutes back on. I think the best way to do it is somewhere in-between.
@@patrickgass5707 I'm in the US and I find that Electrify America (US equivalent of Ionity) and Tesla superchargers are about equal in their distance from off ramps
@@AlijahSimon I am living in France and in Europe Tesla chargers are sometimes a little off the highway (highway’s are privately operated). IONITY might have negotiated a special deal with the highway operators which might explain the high charging costs
Great video Richard! Thanks a lot for taking the time to make it, really professional! I think there's now no disputing there is a real affordable alternative for the average family to go electric. Look forward to seeing the full review.
16:59 Spot the model 3 driver reaching for the gear selector but turning on the wipers instead, haha. I have done this so many times when driving other cars!
When driving EVs, you should drive the speed you want, and charge just enough to get to the next charger. It’s very slow to charge above about 50-60% SOC.
As others are saying, I would assume that the Ionity charger shows electricity drawn from the grid. There will then be losses as it goes through the charger and into the car. The car will report electricity which has made it into the battery so the gap is most likely losses in the charging process. Obviously Ionity will charge you for all electricity they draw from the grid for your session as they will be being charged for that.
As others have posted heat and losses in charging result in higher energy usage than the car receives. If cold, a proportion of the energy is also used to heat the battery, or run air con if you are in the car.
This video really highlights what the EV engineers should be focusing on. They should target ranges that match what people would normally drive before wanting to stop for food or toilet break and faster charging speeds, faster charging speeds faster charging speeds. Did I say faster charging speeds? The IONIQ 5/KIA EV 6/ Genesis GV60 will all have 800V charging. Then range isn't such a big deal. Thanks (from Toronto) for the great video.
The voltage isn't particularly relevant to charging speeds, it's more about the charge curve of the battery, which is set up to balance charge speed against battery degradation. The battery cooling system has a much larger effect.
Throw an eNiro into the mix...that tends to do well in terms of efficiency. Slow charging though. I look forward to seeing what the the Ioniq 5 and KIA EV6 can do...
250 is Supercharger V3, max on IOnity is 200. I managed 200 in Germany with my 3P on the autobahn. Regarding power added: Some cars (like MOdel 3) can heat the car etc through the charger, while charging.
A reasonable explanation for the charging discrepancy is that the Ionity charger measures the actual energy used for charging the battery and not the actual energy stored in the battery. 81kWh of energy consumed with a 94.1% efficiency will do 99% of the 77kWh of the usable capacity of the battery. Please note that the actual energy stored in the battery is also a variable (especially with cars in there run in period) and the vehicle will eventually become a little bit more efficient.
This isn’t true, at least in the US. My Model 3 always shows less energy going into the battery than what I get billed for. You have to look at the invoice you get for the charging expenses
12:50 Battery charging always have some loses and additional consumption. There will be some waste heat generated due to internal resistance in the battery cell and in cables and fuse and heating / cooling of battery. Also consumption for charging 12 V battery through DC-DC converter, cabin heating and to power computers and electronics. Another point is where is energy displayed on charger pole measured? Ionity charger input is AC (230 / 400 VAC), that goes through AC to DC conversion and DC to DC conversion (step up / step down), with a HPC like 350 kW they will have liquid cooling in cables so power for pumps are needed, where as a 50 kW charger do not require liquid cooling. The energy sent through cable to the EV is less than charging station require to perform the particular charging. Whether the measurement is done on input or output side may depend on local regulation.
I believe the difference between the two figures will be due to heat loss during the charging process. What could also add to that is if you were running the climate during charging.
Excellent informative and totally useful and practical test and review. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Looking forwar to the follow ups..Stay safe.
Start with 90% from home, race to the nearest charger at 10% and charge until you reach the next supercharger, and do not wait! Charge again, but never go over 80% (you will loose time). You can use abetterrouteplanner to add specific settings, start SoC, needed SoC at destination, arrive at waypoints, etc. In winter I would charge before the arrival fast, and not after I start the next roadtrip with cold battery
My Kia-Soul-owner mate, who got me in to buying an EV early last year, has always voiced his preference for driving 'normally' and taking more frequent, shorter chargers rather than pushing to the limits of the car's range, then stopping for a longer charge. In my case, actually, it's more likely to be dictated by 'bladder-range' than how far the car can go, anyway...!! Ha Ha... :-0
Preheating the car and getting the battery up to temp has a massive effect on our ID.3. We are getting 210 miles plus in winter and hope to get 240 miles plus in summer. Our ID.3 only has the 58kWh pack but is lighter with less drag.
It depends on that the ionity charger shows how much it puts out, but some of the power from the ionity charger becomes heat in the cable. Everything doesnt end up in the car battery
And the ID4 is way more practical and bigger. Also much cheaper (at least in Sweden) Good to see someone else than Tesla making EVs that are effective.
Really interesting review for the VW ID4. From a practical pov, it is great to have real world 70mph car journeys, and the realistic range achieveable without 'range anxiety' - I can see myself fully EV in the near future - currently self charging hybrid. Thank you.
Great Video! I *think* the 350 kW Ionity chargers need an 800 volt car like the Porsche Taycan. Watts = Amps x Volts. On a 400 volt car (like most EV cars - not sure about the ID4) it will be limited to 175 kW max (430 Amps). I'm not 100% sure, but that's my understanding. A 250 kW v3 Tesla Supercharger can push more Amps, at over 600, but only for a fairly short period of time, and under specific battery state of charge (SoC) and temperatures. Once you get into the 'rhythm' of EV road trips, the crazy fast charging times matter less than you first think.
It costs energy to fill a battery, this is known as the charging efficiency, this is why on a significant charging session you'll typically see a delta between the energy delivered by the car and the energy received by the car. The energy between what was sent by the charger will be lost as heat, as well as some drain from the cars systems managing the battery back and dealing with the heat of charging
The amount measured by the charger is going to be higher than the amount of charge received by the battery. For example, rapid charging a battery will typically start the battery cooling system to avoid overheating the battery - and the heating of the battery itself is a function of internal resistance which will lose some of the energy as heat rather than stored in the battery. Similarly, if you are in the car while it charges, it will use air con or heating, which will use some of the energy. Alternatively, if you’re not in the car and have sentry mode enabled, that will use energy. So there are a number of factors behind why there will be a discrepancy between how much energy leaves the charger and how much energy is stored in the battery.
@@KasperCDK Yeah, at ua-cam.com/video/0fLSJfcsRLg/v-deo.htmlm56s it is said kickdown overrules settings so there are no restrictions, which makes me agree with you.
If the car is charging with lots of Amps there are also higher losses, for instance in the cable. At some point these cables will need liquid cooling to keep them cool enough to allow these high currents to flow without melting the cable.
Regarding the apparent disparity in kWh during recharging, this may actually reflect the charging losses which are around 5%. 5% of 70kWh is 3.5kWh. Looks like it.
While Ionity claim to offer 350KW charging, who is to say that those particular chargers were not being throttled by them? The Tesla would have charged faster at that SOC and battery temperature on a v3 SuperCharger, but only upto about 50% charge, I know because mine does. I've rarely found chargers that actually offer their advertised rate, e.g. 42KW on a 50KW BP Pulse, some of the Instavolts have a maximum per pair, and I've yet to see a V2 SuperCharger that actually overs more that 125KW when listed as 150KW.
Interesting about the Ionity chargers - petrol pumps have to be calibrated and checked of course, is it the same for EV chargers ? - they ought to be really as consumers need to have confidence that they are getting what they are charged for.
I believe they have to meet a standard so they will have been calibrated since they charge you money. However it is not the real problem when you charge your vehicle a handshaking protocol takes place where it tells the charger what it can accept most of the time it is the vehicle that downgrades the charging to save the battery from degrading as everytime the battery is supercharged it is degraded faster. In the end the battery is like charging your phone you should not supercharge it too often and try and keep in between the 20-80 range for efficient longer life. The idea of supercharging is actually in conflict with battery longevity and is often something not talked about at all.
Hi, how good is VW's Travel Assist on the freeways? Does it keep the car reliably centered in its lane? I am looking for a car with good semi-autonomous tech. Thanks!
Test drive it today. The steering wheel vibrates to let you know your leaving your lane, and auto corrects gently back into the lane. With that said, it definitely needs hands on by the driver paying full attention.
The discrepancy in energy added is what the charger puts out versus what the car stores in the batteries. After heat losses through charging inefficiencies and things like having the AC running will create that discrepancy.
The kWh dispersed by the DC charger and the kWh charged to the battery are not the same due to charging losses, heat losses and charging efficiency. With every energy transformation there will be energy dispersion, normally lost via heat.
Richard and team, another great real-world view video; really informative. You didn't mention how much the IONITY charging session(s) actually cost though? I've seen IONITY units charge as much as £0.61 per KwH. Keep the videos coming, always informative.
Big difference in cost between ionity 0.69p kw and BP 0.42 non member and 0.27 p kw for member, that would be for 80kw £55 and £21 for BP with membership
The reason for the Ionity charger to display more kWh than the car is simple: the charger display - and bills - the kWh delivered to the car. the car displays the kWh that reaches the battery, which of course is less, especially if you sit in the car and leave heater, radio and things running...
Reminds Mr of petrol.. when you top up petrol I have noticed that difference in mileage topping up at different service stations, for example, let's say shell and sainsbury petrol stations have the same ltr prices, top up paying £30 will get you 300miles yet the other 280 (example). Check it out yourself
I'm surprised you don't regularly see 250 kW charging speed in your Model 3. At that temperature over here in the US, I always get 250 kW when navigating to a v3 Supercharger and arriving with under 20% left in the battery.
My guess is that the Tesla limits non-Superchargers to a speed its comfortable pulling into the battery. And if they had gone to the Supercharger nearby, it would have greatly increased the kwh.
@@FatherDragonKal he said he's never seen it hit those top advertised speeds on superchargers and that's my experience too, max I have seen is 129 or so but that lasts a few seconds only
This only happens in superchargers. 3rd party chargers cannot deliver the amps at 400v model 3 pack voltages. To deliver 350kw on Ionity you need to have a 800v pack. V3 Superchargers with liquid cooled cables can deliver nearly 1000amps.
@@Robbie6298 ah, thank you! I knew that at one time, but had forgotten. Here in the US we can't charge Teslas at Ionity equivalent Electrify America (except via CHAdeMO adapter at 50 kW).
And gain this video persuaded me that electric cars are not there yet with full functionality of a car we knew before. I still could do 350-400 miles trip in my petrol car without being bothered looking for petrol station in Highlands, good luck finding a working charger there. And again chargers not working, need an app and registration and even so they do not work etc. Perfect car for commuting and charging at home, not for a long trip and it is not worth a hassle you can have.
There are two reasons why the charger shows more energy delivered. 1: The charger counts the AC delivered to the AC-DC converter, because it's impossible to measure DC. The AC-DC converter has some internal loss. The cars onboard charger has a similar loss. You can measure this internal loss by comparing the energy you can use from a battery and the energy you have to spend to recharge on AC. 2: While DC charging, the car uses some energy for heating and/or cooling the battery. This extra energy is delivered by the charger and of course the charger counts it.
Much better comparison - Curious why not use the Supercharging network? It's one of the biggest advantages of owning a Tesla, and would probably have allowed the Tesla to charge faster.
ID4 is very close to Model Y (more similar sized) - although Model Y is much quicker and 4WD - will be interesting to see how close VW will be when they have their unified cell and cell to car pack vs Tesla’s 4680 and structural pack. - competition is great for us consumers.
Isnt the chargers value what it outputs. What the car shows is what it’s put into the battery after losses. (I believe it’s supposed to be 87% efficient to charge the battery isn’t it?)
Presumably the charger is indicating kWh delivered and the Model 3 is indicating kWh actually getting into the battery. Some will be lost as heat anyway, but the car will have tried to heat the battery anyway as you said it didn’t preheat much before arriving. The two stator heaters can pull around 7kW when heating the battery, that comes from the charger, so some of the energy delivered went into that instead. I suspect if you compare charge rate between car screen and charger may see some difference there too. If I recall correctly, the Tesla indicates what is going into the battery, but the charger will display what power it’s delivering. Scan my Tesla app would probably give more data on this.
Yes, nicely done. As an (otherwise happy) model 3 owner, I would give up quite a bit to have a hatchback. On the other hand , I was put off the excellent ID.3 we tried by the software. Sounds as if it still needs some work! But my question is... if the Model 3 had started with 100% charge instead of 90%, would he still have needed to slow down a bit on the final leg?
You pay for the electricity used from the grid when charging, but there are losses in charging relating to heat and other losses and uses during the charge, so for example 66 kwh is paid for from the grid, of which some is wasted or used by the car and the charger and you gain 62kwh charge in the battery. The whole system being 90-95% efficient would be reasonable to assume...
I like the way you are in Alice through the looking glass world around the 18 minute mark ! As everyone else has said the discrepancy on charging is simply down to charging inefficiency, what the charger puts out isnt what gets into the car.
Why use an older model 3 vs a brand new car - especially when your garage is full og newer versions! 🤔 When that said, a Tesla owner would of course use Tesla superchargers instead of ionity overpriced stands - maybe also get higher charging speeds! Great video btw! 👍
Also at the end of the video the ID.4 is quoted as £40,000 (£40,800 on the VW website for a basic model, 310mile range) whereas the new Model 3 Long Range (360mile) is £50,000. A new Model 3 Standard Range Plus (278mile) is £43,500. Agree with you about using the Superchargers for longer journeys in my Model 3 Standard Range Plus
There is always loss in any system. The amount of power the charger puts out will always be slightly more than the car actually receives. It only fractional, but it adds up over a big charge. That’s before we consider calibration of both charger and car.
There will be some loss when charging as it’s not 100% efficient, there is also heat, any auxiliary use (heating in the car) and any warming the car does to warm the battery (M3 uses the motors to warm the battery you heard a buzzing sort of noise, no idea if the id does something similar)
The reason you use more power to charge than is displayed as usable is because of charging efficiency usually about 95%, most of the energy is converted to heat by the charger. This effect applies to all EV’s and the charge point and EV battery management system. Incidentally the EV can’t convert battery energy to mechanical energy at much more than the same amount of 95% efficiency so you lose power both ways, it’s called the round trip efficiency.
You have convinced me it's time to sell my Audi A8L and go the Tesla route. What's not to like.??? I need to travel south from Yorkshire to visit my all time trials hero Sammy Miller (not far from you) and buy one of your stock to drive home in.
Coming From a Lexus. I have no problems with my Tesla. The only people complaining are not Tesla owners they are just weenie babies that have never driven or owned one and pick out flaws they read on the internet which a vast majority of owners dont experience.
Great review, Battery size doesn't need to get bigger, as demonstrated, speed of charging will be the way forward, to aid mass adoption! VW are doing a great job, bringing out their new ID ranges, showing long distance journeys are doable, with an alternative choice to a Tesla, to meet more peoples needs, the hatchback will help it sell loads! What are the plans for the ID4? Shame we can't come see it (yet)!
Not just speed of charging (which in real life is about right now?) but availability around the country. There are still some pretty poorly covered parts of the country.
Bingo. To an extent range could be longer but its all about reducing the time during the stop to charge. 5-10min to full up an empty tank vs 45min to 1hr charge is a big difference.
actually the (Ionity) charger bills you for what comes in so you are also paying for the AC/DC conversion losses. Tesla Superchargers are the only ones to bill for the DC arriving at the car
Bjorn has shown many times that stopping at 10% and charging to 60% twice is much faster than driving to a very low SOC and going to 90%. A two shortstop strategy is better than one long stop for other reasons as well. Both the comfort of the driver and passengers as well as to avoid issues if a charger fails as there is enough charge for plan B but not if the long drive to a low state leaves you stranded.
I know. I reference that in the video that when we drove up, we had less than an hour of charging and arrived with 30%
@@RSEV Driving an EV requires an F1 team to work out the pit stop strategy 🏎️
@@djwarren5081 You don’t need an F1 team but just some preparation and good sense.
@@patrickgass5707 that counts me out then 😂
@@djwarren5081 It’s easy. Have a large Starbucks coffee before you start and when you need a wee you charge the car at the same time (and get another coffee). Repeat as required. :)
The amount of power going into the car isn't exactly the amount the battery gets, it depends how efficient the car is with managing that power. A lot can be lost to heat for example. Bjorn Nyland does some good videos comparing the efficient in that regard! :)
I was surprised to hear that question from the guy who is using BEV for years :).
exactly, plus, Tesla is heating battery, as Bjorn Nyland demonstrated so many times, many cars do that too, so charger must show more energy used than actually went into battery. Bjorn also did a test of charging efficiency (at least it gives a guideline) at various charging speeds, etc.
@@wfm125m Me too. I was truly shocked :) While supercharging there will be always loses.
So the charger reports the energy delivered and the vehicle reports the energy that went into the battery. Sounds right to me as there are some losses associated with the charging process. No surprises here. I expect the amount of energy loss will increase for faster charging rates.
I’m sure reviewer does know about losses, that can be up to 10% between charge delivered/received - he just wants to get the comments flooding in.
I have owned my id4 for 3 days. And put approx 800km on it. And I can sell my diesel with ease now
For long road trips, I’ll never sell my diesel. For local driving, the electric is superior.
No range anxiety at all?
@@Raggadish. nope. It’s super. Easy Get 440 one charge
@@hawolex2341 im nervous
@@hawolex2341 using my now sold bmw 318d as a reference point, managed 72mpg which would equate to 1,300km range on 1 full tank, yes would cost more, but im still waiting on more efficient higher energy lower cost batteries to come out
I was returning home from visiting my sister last night and stopped at a Tesla V3 supercharger that’s capable of up to 250kW charging. I was at 6% when I plugged in and hit a max rate of 233kW!! In about 10-11 min I was at 50% state of charge. Unplugged and continued my trip. It feels great to see a charging stop come close to a gas fueling stop from a temporal standpoint
What Tesla do you own that can charge that fast for 10+ mins?
@@rjbiker66 I own a 2020 Model 3 and it’s capable of up to 250kW charging rates. I plugged in at a very low state of charge and maxed out at 233kW. I couldn’t believe it myself. Funny thing is that when I plug into the 150kW units, I rarely get close to the full rate of 150kW. It’s possibly because I usually don’t let my car get that low on charge
@@alexc6946 SR+ or LR?
@@rjbiker66 It's the LR Performance model
@@rjbiker66 I have stats for charging at about 230kw in my LR Model 3.
You mentioned a lack of passing power in eco mode. There is a button switch under the gas pedal. If you push the pedal all the way down and get past that switch it will kick it out and give you full power regardless of the mode you have selected.
Great video, regarding discrepancies, it is charging losses. The chargers delivered more than the car took, because some is lost in heat and energy conversion. Conversion of energy from electrical to chemical is not 100% efficient.
Superchargers are not made for charging car up to 100% instead you just charging it for reach next supercharger! That way you will cover the distance much faster
13:30 Ionity charge delievered shows A/C usage and other electronics. Inside the car for the Tesla it shows the amount of charge into the battery only. That is the reason why the ionity charger shows a higher armount of KWh delivered
"downhill" doesn't make a difference.
"West" is faster because the earth is rotating under you!!
🙄😉
A very professional production. Made me realise that owning an EV is a realistic prospect. What range anxiety!
It comes because you realise that the chargers rarely work.
You need to leave a buffer in the battery
@@Robert-cu9bm I think that keeping the Chargers running is the biggest problem for EVs.
@@Demobot1
People will not convert the whole time the network is unreliable. Especially if they don't have a driveway or have multiple cars.
@@Robert-cu9bm I agree with you. It's nearly impossible to push EVs to the general public that lives in apartments and don't have access to a plug at their residence. Unless the government is going to mandate something along those lines there is a long way to go.
@@Robert-cu9bm Indeed Robert. I've read about people arriving at chargers that don't work. Another reason that folk come to the conclusion that a Tesla with the Supercharger network is currently the best option.
Interesting video! Would have liked to see if charging at the Supercharger would have made a difference in the charging times. :)
Should have done a "slash and dash" on the Ionity, then used the V3 at Mansfield. Would have charged fast and had no range/speed issue.
But, this was better than the (stupid) Carwow "run to empty" test.
I completely agree with you
100% agree, I actually feel like this is a disadvantage for Tesla. Ionity chargers are literally owned by Volkswagen and the other automakers, so of course, they are going to be more optimized for their cars. Same with Teslas and their superchargers.
I mean, I don't actually care that much, but I feel like this fact makes the charging competition pretty irrelevant.
@@NormanGaming196 Tesla Superchargers are leagues ahead of ionity. More locations and more stalls each location. And the in-car nav will take you there whenever you need to charge. No faffing with an app or remembering passwords. Just press the button and plug it in.
Yes they could have stopped at the tesla superchargers at the back of the hotel near washington services and the vw could have popped into the services to charge up
Great real world example, my bladder would have required more stops than those cars actually need. So to be safe, responsible anything that can travel over 3 hrs on a motorway is great really.
Can't charge a car in the time it takes to do a piss though can you?
Strange how all the HGV and business drivers manage to drive 3 hours or more without issues....
Congratulations, your channel is today, in my humble opinion, among the best for the quality of the information provided 👏🏻
Would've liked to see all on day £cost for charging.
The discrepancy between kWh delivered by the charger and the kWh added to the battery (which is what the TM3 shows on its screen) is the energy lost on heat in the internal electronics, cables and internal battery resistance which varies by the current temperature of the cells. Also, most modern EVs use some energy to warm up the battery during charging to be able to increase the charging speed and/or protect the cells.
I guess you could have been much quicker by including additional one or two short charges for example from 5% to 40% in 15 minutes rather than charging to 100%.
Yea and I comment that we did the drive up with less than hour charging and still arrived with 30% in the Long Range because we made multiple quick stops
What people don't take into account with this method is the several minutes it takes getting off the highway and then back on. Some chargers are RIGHT off the highway which is great but others are 5-10 minutes off and then 5-10 minutes back on. I think the best way to do it is somewhere in-between.
@@AlijahSimon in general the IONITY chargers are located next to highway’s. Tesla chargers are sometimes a bit further away
@@patrickgass5707 I'm in the US and I find that Electrify America (US equivalent of Ionity) and Tesla superchargers are about equal in their distance from off ramps
@@AlijahSimon I am living in France and in Europe Tesla chargers are sometimes a little off the highway (highway’s are privately operated). IONITY might have negotiated a special deal with the highway operators which might explain the high charging costs
Great video Richard! Thanks a lot for taking the time to make it, really professional! I think there's now no disputing there is a real affordable alternative for the average family to go electric. Look forward to seeing the full review.
Thank you. We’ll try and film the full review of the car itself tomorrow
16:59 Spot the model 3 driver reaching for the gear selector but turning on the wipers instead, haha. I have done this so many times when driving other cars!
Which one wins from a comfort and noise perspective?
probably the boring, slow car.
Depends how loud you have your music ;)
When driving EVs, you should drive the speed you want, and charge just enough to get to the next charger. It’s very slow to charge above about 50-60% SOC.
With the etron it isn't, it's just getting warm at 50-60. 😅
@@abraxastulammo9940 That’s true, but you also need the higher SOC to reach the next charger;)
@@TheSteinbitt I hear VW supports the rollout of lots and lots of BP stations with HPC (Aral in Germany).
Yes, the ID.4 still charges at around 100 kW at 50%, which ramps down to around 65 kW at 73% (and then it stays at 65 kW until 83%).
@@abraxastulammo9940 yep!
As others are saying, I would assume that the Ionity charger shows electricity drawn from the grid. There will then be losses as it goes through the charger and into the car. The car will report electricity which has made it into the battery so the gap is most likely losses in the charging process. Obviously Ionity will charge you for all electricity they draw from the grid for your session as they will be being charged for that.
As others have posted heat and losses in charging result in higher energy usage than the car receives. If cold, a proportion of the energy is also used to heat the battery, or run air con if you are in the car.
This video really highlights what the EV engineers should be focusing on. They should target ranges that match what people would normally drive before wanting to stop for food or toilet break and faster charging speeds, faster charging speeds faster charging speeds. Did I say faster charging speeds? The IONIQ 5/KIA EV 6/ Genesis GV60 will all have 800V charging. Then range isn't such a big deal. Thanks (from Toronto) for the great video.
The voltage isn't particularly relevant to charging speeds, it's more about the charge curve of the battery, which is set up to balance charge speed against battery degradation. The battery cooling system has a much larger effect.
@@jonathanmelhuish4530 Voltage isn't relevant? Yahhhh, no.
Throw an eNiro into the mix...that tends to do well in terms of efficiency. Slow charging though. I look forward to seeing what the the Ioniq 5 and KIA EV6 can do...
250 is Supercharger V3, max on IOnity is 200.
I managed 200 in Germany with my 3P on the autobahn.
Regarding power added: Some cars (like MOdel 3) can heat the car etc through the charger, while charging.
A reasonable explanation for the charging discrepancy is that the Ionity charger measures the actual energy used for charging the battery and not the actual energy stored in the battery. 81kWh of energy consumed with a 94.1% efficiency will do 99% of the 77kWh of the usable capacity of the battery.
Please note that the actual energy stored in the battery is also a variable (especially with cars in there run in period) and the vehicle will eventually become a little bit more efficient.
ionity also bills you for heat losses and for energy cost to run the cooling pumps for the charger.
The reason for the kWh discrepancy is heat loss - via the cables + the cars.
Ionity bills you for charging losses. Tesla doesn't.
This isn’t true, at least in the US. My Model 3 always shows less energy going into the battery than what I get billed for. You have to look at the invoice you get for the charging expenses
I've noticed being charged for kw in rather than added ( UK )
And Ionity cost per Kwh is often double than the Tesla super chargers
Heat and charging losses if about 5% are normal. Charger dispensed more than battery stored and Charles you for the total dispensed.
12:50 Battery charging always have some loses and additional consumption. There will be some waste heat generated due to internal resistance in the battery cell and in cables and fuse and heating / cooling of battery. Also consumption for charging 12 V battery through DC-DC converter, cabin heating and to power computers and electronics.
Another point is where is energy displayed on charger pole measured? Ionity charger input is AC (230 / 400 VAC), that goes through AC to DC conversion and DC to DC conversion (step up / step down), with a HPC like 350 kW they will have liquid cooling in cables so power for pumps are needed, where as a 50 kW charger do not require liquid cooling. The energy sent through cable to the EV is less than charging station require to perform the particular charging. Whether the measurement is done on input or output side may depend on local regulation.
Thanks, great review! Of course, better comparison would be Model Y vs ID4... apples with apples.
Except regarding price 😜 Then it’s not anymore 🍎 to 🍏
As Model Y isn’t available in UK yet, the 3 and ID4 seems like a fair comparison.
Absolute fantastic comparison based on real world scenario! Thanks
Why didn't you say how much it cost to charge the car when you stopped at ionity and bp?
Ionity £0.69p BP £0.25 non member £0.15 if a member for 50kw and 0.42 non member 0.27 member for 150kw
I believe the difference between the two figures will be due to heat loss during the charging process. What could also add to that is if you were running the climate during charging.
Yep - the difference is due to losses through heat
Excellent informative and totally useful and practical test and review. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Looking forwar to the follow ups..Stay safe.
Start with 90% from home, race to the nearest charger at 10% and charge until you reach the next supercharger, and do not wait! Charge again, but never go over 80% (you will loose time). You can use abetterrouteplanner to add specific settings, start SoC, needed SoC at destination, arrive at waypoints, etc. In winter I would charge before the arrival fast, and not after I start the next roadtrip with cold battery
My Kia-Soul-owner mate, who got me in to buying an EV early last year, has always voiced his preference for driving 'normally' and taking more frequent, shorter chargers rather than pushing to the limits of the car's range, then stopping for a longer charge.
In my case, actually, it's more likely to be dictated by 'bladder-range' than how far the car can go, anyway...!! Ha Ha... :-0
Preheating the car and getting the battery up to temp has a massive effect on our ID.3. We are getting 210 miles plus in winter and hope to get 240 miles plus in summer. Our ID.3 only has the 58kWh pack but is lighter with less drag.
It depends on that the ionity charger shows how much it puts out, but some of the power from the ionity charger becomes heat in the cable. Everything doesnt end up in the car battery
And the ID4 is way more practical and bigger. Also much cheaper (at least in Sweden) Good to see someone else than Tesla making EVs that are effective.
Beror på vilken utrusta man väljer till iofs.
Brilliant video Richard. Loving what you publish so thank you.
Thank you for the kind words! We have lots more to follow. Just finding the time...!
Really interesting review for the VW ID4. From a practical pov, it is great to have real world 70mph car journeys, and the realistic range achieveable without 'range anxiety' - I can see myself fully EV in the near future - currently self charging hybrid. Thank you.
OMG A TALKING CAR!!!
If you own a Prius, an EV won't save much money if using public charging the entire time.
Great Video! I *think* the 350 kW Ionity chargers need an 800 volt car like the Porsche Taycan. Watts = Amps x Volts. On a 400 volt car (like most EV cars - not sure about the ID4) it will be limited to 175 kW max (430 Amps). I'm not 100% sure, but that's my understanding. A 250 kW v3 Tesla Supercharger can push more Amps, at over 600, but only for a fairly short period of time, and under specific battery state of charge (SoC) and temperatures.
Once you get into the 'rhythm' of EV road trips, the crazy fast charging times matter less than you first think.
It costs energy to fill a battery, this is known as the charging efficiency, this is why on a significant charging session you'll typically see a delta between the energy delivered by the car and the energy received by the car. The energy between what was sent by the charger will be lost as heat, as well as some drain from the cars systems managing the battery back and dealing with the heat of charging
would have been interesting number of kW used and cost difference. for the same run.
The amount measured by the charger is going to be higher than the amount of charge received by the battery. For example, rapid charging a battery will typically start the battery cooling system to avoid overheating the battery - and the heating of the battery itself is a function of internal resistance which will lose some of the energy as heat rather than stored in the battery. Similarly, if you are in the car while it charges, it will use air con or heating, which will use some of the energy. Alternatively, if you’re not in the car and have sentry mode enabled, that will use energy. So there are a number of factors behind why there will be a discrepancy between how much energy leaves the charger and how much energy is stored in the battery.
Just push the pedal all the way down, then it does a kickdown. You will feel a click, and then it will "cancel" ECO mode acceleration shortly.
Kickdown must be a new concept to people. 😂
@@abraxastulammo9940 ? 😀
@@KasperCDK Yeah, at ua-cam.com/video/0fLSJfcsRLg/v-deo.htmlm56s it is said kickdown overrules settings so there are no restrictions, which makes me agree with you.
If the car is charging with lots of Amps there are also higher losses, for instance in the cable.
At some point these cables will need liquid cooling to keep them cool enough to allow these high currents to flow without melting the cable.
Regarding the apparent disparity in kWh during recharging, this may actually reflect the charging losses which are around 5%. 5% of 70kWh is 3.5kWh. Looks like it.
While Ionity claim to offer 350KW charging, who is to say that those particular chargers were not being throttled by them? The Tesla would have charged faster at that SOC and battery temperature on a v3 SuperCharger, but only upto about 50% charge, I know because mine does.
I've rarely found chargers that actually offer their advertised rate, e.g. 42KW on a 50KW BP Pulse, some of the Instavolts have a maximum per pair, and I've yet to see a V2 SuperCharger that actually overs more that 125KW when listed as 150KW.
Interesting about the Ionity chargers - petrol pumps have to be calibrated and checked of course, is it the same for EV chargers ? - they ought to be really as consumers need to have confidence that they are getting what they are charged for.
I believe they have to meet a standard so they will have been calibrated since they charge you money.
However it is not the real problem when you charge your vehicle a handshaking protocol takes place where it tells the charger what it can accept most of the time it is the vehicle that downgrades the charging to save the battery from degrading as everytime the battery is supercharged it is degraded faster.
In the end the battery is like charging your phone you should not supercharge it too often and try and keep in between the 20-80 range for efficient longer life.
The idea of supercharging is actually in conflict with battery longevity and is often something not talked about at all.
Hi, how good is VW's Travel Assist on the freeways? Does it keep the car reliably centered in its lane? I am looking for a car with good semi-autonomous tech. Thanks!
Test drive it today. The steering wheel vibrates to let you know your leaving your lane, and auto corrects gently back into the lane. With that said, it definitely needs hands on by the driver paying full attention.
@@NHRunDad will definitely have to give VW Travel Assist a test drive! Thanks
The discrepancy in energy added is what the charger puts out versus what the car stores in the batteries. After heat losses through charging inefficiencies and things like having the AC running will create that discrepancy.
Charging speeds are like broadband speeds, you pay for one thing but they deliver much less.
The kWh dispersed by the DC charger and the kWh charged to the battery are not the same due to charging losses, heat losses and charging efficiency. With every energy transformation there will be energy dispersion, normally lost via heat.
You had both "known faults"
Navigation
Charger handshake.
Richard and team, another great real-world view video; really informative. You didn't mention how much the IONITY charging session(s) actually cost though? I've seen IONITY units charge as much as £0.61 per KwH. Keep the videos coming, always informative.
I'm an electric car owner and found your 1 stop vs 2 stop really interesting. thanks
Does the Tesla typically charge faster at the Tesla charger?
Did you use Range mode on the M3? Range mode will prevent it from pre-heating the battery.
4.45 and the views he mentioned, background looks like he is near Berwick upon tweed. In case anyone is wondering.
Lucky fella! My Aunty, Uncle and Cousins live in Bournemouth.......... 300 days of sun every year!
Big difference in cost between ionity 0.69p kw and BP 0.42 non member and 0.27 p kw for member, that would be for 80kw £55 and £21 for BP with membership
The metric to measure when comparing charging is miles per hour, not kw charging rate or kwhs delivered
The reason for the Ionity charger to display more kWh than the car is simple:
the charger display - and bills - the kWh delivered to the car.
the car displays the kWh that reaches the battery, which of course is less, especially if you sit in the car and leave heater, radio and things running...
Reminds Mr of petrol.. when you top up petrol I have noticed that difference in mileage topping up at different service stations, for example, let's say shell and sainsbury petrol stations have the same ltr prices, top up paying £30 will get you 300miles yet the other 280 (example). Check it out yourself
Great video - keep it up!!
Nice vid! You did well with the technicalities.
4:28 what it doesn't have kick down!? i thought that was standard thing, i had it on leaf and corsa e
I'm surprised you don't regularly see 250 kW charging speed in your Model 3. At that temperature over here in the US, I always get 250 kW when navigating to a v3 Supercharger and arriving with under 20% left in the battery.
My guess is that the Tesla limits non-Superchargers to a speed its comfortable pulling into the battery. And if they had gone to the Supercharger nearby, it would have greatly increased the kwh.
@@FatherDragonKal he said he's never seen it hit those top advertised speeds on superchargers and that's my experience too, max I have seen is 129 or so but that lasts a few seconds only
@@FatherDragonKal Speed limit is 500 Amps, so 190+ kW and it was preheated by entering nearby supercharger as destination.
This only happens in superchargers. 3rd party chargers cannot deliver the amps at 400v model 3 pack voltages. To deliver 350kw on Ionity you need to have a 800v pack. V3 Superchargers with liquid cooled cables can deliver nearly 1000amps.
@@Robbie6298 ah, thank you! I knew that at one time, but had forgotten. Here in the US we can't charge Teslas at Ionity equivalent Electrify America (except via CHAdeMO adapter at 50 kW).
And gain this video persuaded me that electric cars are not there yet with full functionality of a car we knew before. I still could do 350-400 miles trip in my petrol car without being bothered looking for petrol station in Highlands, good luck finding a working charger there. And again chargers not working, need an app and registration and even so they do not work etc. Perfect car for commuting and charging at home, not for a long trip and it is not worth a hassle you can have.
Not just time to charge/speee...can we also get an idea of the cost.of the charges.
There are two reasons why the charger shows more energy delivered.
1: The charger counts the AC delivered to the AC-DC converter, because it's impossible to measure DC. The AC-DC converter has some internal loss. The cars onboard charger has a similar loss. You can measure this internal loss by comparing the energy you can use from a battery and the energy you have to spend to recharge on AC.
2: While DC charging, the car uses some energy for heating and/or cooling the battery. This extra energy is delivered by the charger and of course the charger counts it.
Much better comparison - Curious why not use the Supercharging network? It's one of the biggest advantages of owning a Tesla, and would probably have allowed the Tesla to charge faster.
For fair comparison maybe
Maybe it is only 120 kW instead of 350?
The ID 4 tested in USA, in Eco-mode has an overide switch by matting the accelerator, to put it back into power mode.
Really? I’ll have to check that but I couldn’t get it to move much.
But I’d been driving the model 3 night before which is obv very fast
It has a "kick down switch". Then you get full power in these situations.
FWIW Here in NZ I charged my M3 SR+ by setting the charger (not a Supercharger) to 80%. When it stopped the Tesla was indicating 76%...
"Let me just check the route, the satnav still thinks I'm in Scotland" 😂
VW at it’s most helpful
Crazy how much better the Tesla is in efficiency - and the new ones are even more efficient! Shows the competition still has a long way to go
Efficiency difference in this case stems from the shape & size of the car, nothing "crazy" about it.
ID4 is very close to Model Y (more similar sized) - although Model Y is much quicker and 4WD - will be interesting to see how close VW will be when they have their unified cell and cell to car pack vs Tesla’s 4680 and structural pack. - competition is great for us consumers.
@@scottwills4698 MY should be more efficient (better aero with the sloping back)
@@izpodpolja there are comparison videos on UA-cam from America. There is less than 10% in it.
Isnt the chargers value what it outputs. What the car shows is what it’s put into the battery after losses. (I believe it’s supposed to be 87% efficient to charge the battery isn’t it?)
PROPER test!!
How much did it cost you?
How would the Model 3 LR do using Tesla chargers?
Presumably the charger is indicating kWh delivered and the Model 3 is indicating kWh actually getting into the battery. Some will be lost as heat anyway, but the car will have tried to heat the battery anyway as you said it didn’t preheat much before arriving. The two stator heaters can pull around 7kW when heating the battery, that comes from the charger, so some of the energy delivered went into that instead. I suspect if you compare charge rate between car screen and charger may see some difference there too. If I recall correctly, the Tesla indicates what is going into the battery, but the charger will display what power it’s delivering. Scan my Tesla app would probably give more data on this.
Yes, nicely done. As an (otherwise happy) model 3 owner, I would give up quite a bit to have a hatchback. On the other hand , I was put off the excellent ID.3 we tried by the software. Sounds as if it still needs some work!
But my question is... if the Model 3 had started with 100% charge instead of 90%, would he still have needed to slow down a bit on the final leg?
The IDs software has changed quite a bit since their launch, it's much better now and all the small issues are gone.
You pay for the electricity used from the grid when charging, but there are losses in charging relating to heat and other losses and uses during the charge, so for example 66 kwh is paid for from the grid, of which some is wasted or used by the car and the charger and you gain 62kwh charge in the battery. The whole system being 90-95% efficient would be reasonable to assume...
NIce job. Suprised how well the id4 did.
I like the way you are in Alice through the looking glass world around the 18 minute mark ! As everyone else has said the discrepancy on charging is simply down to charging inefficiency, what the charger puts out isnt what gets into the car.
Why use an older model 3 vs a brand new car - especially when your garage is full og newer versions! 🤔
When that said, a Tesla owner would of course use Tesla superchargers instead of ionity overpriced stands - maybe also get higher charging speeds!
Great video btw! 👍
Also at the end of the video the ID.4 is quoted as £40,000 (£40,800 on the VW website for a basic model, 310mile range) whereas the new Model 3 Long Range (360mile) is £50,000. A new Model 3 Standard Range Plus (278mile) is £43,500.
Agree with you about using the Superchargers for longer journeys in my Model 3 Standard Range Plus
There is always loss in any system. The amount of power the charger puts out will always be slightly more than the car actually receives. It only fractional, but it adds up over a big charge. That’s before we consider calibration of both charger and car.
Not a bad performance by the VW. Although you have to consider that its motor is very weak and it's super slow.
Would be nice to know which ID4 is involved here..
can't believe i was so excited about that race ahah nice job guys and nice job VW
There will be some loss when charging as it’s not 100% efficient, there is also heat, any auxiliary use (heating in the car) and any warming the car does to warm the battery (M3 uses the motors to warm the battery you heard a buzzing sort of noise, no idea if the id does something similar)
The reason you use more power to charge than is displayed as usable is because of charging efficiency usually about 95%, most of the energy is converted to heat by the charger. This effect applies to all EV’s and the charge point and EV battery management system. Incidentally the EV can’t convert battery energy to mechanical energy at much more than the same amount of 95% efficiency so you lose power both ways, it’s called the round trip efficiency.
You have to 4-5 % heatloss with fastcharging.
How much did the id4 cost to do the 500 miles and then back to full charged
You have convinced me it's time to sell my Audi A8L and go the Tesla route. What's not to like.??? I need to travel south from Yorkshire to visit my all time trials hero Sammy Miller (not far from you) and buy one of your stock to drive home in.
There is a lot not to like. If you haven't figured what Tesla does bad at this point, you just haven't taken the time to do the research.
@@Tafsern Exactly
Mercedes EQS, BMW i4 and Audi e-Tron GT are considerably better choices. Unless you want to buy an inferior, subpar car.
Coming From a Lexus. I have no problems with my Tesla. The only people complaining are not Tesla owners they are just weenie babies that have never driven or owned one and pick out flaws they read on the internet which a vast majority of owners dont experience.
@@Robbie6298 exactly and well said.
Great review, Battery size doesn't need to get bigger, as demonstrated, speed of charging will be the way forward, to aid mass adoption!
VW are doing a great job, bringing out their new ID ranges, showing long distance journeys are doable, with an alternative choice to a Tesla, to meet more peoples needs, the hatchback will help it sell loads!
What are the plans for the ID4? Shame we can't come see it (yet)!
Not just speed of charging (which in real life is about right now?) but availability around the country. There are still some pretty poorly covered parts of the country.
@@FFVoyager
More if chargers work.
People never care about range in a ICE because you know the pump will work.
Bingo. To an extent range could be longer but its all about reducing the time during the stop to charge. 5-10min to full up an empty tank vs 45min to 1hr charge is a big difference.
@@faywhite7886 Hyundai ioniq 5 and Kia ev6 will do 10 to 80 % in 20 mins ie. 250 miles
Im wondering i thought you said 220 miles at start which woukd surely be the 55kw id4 not the 77kw?
@13.35 - seems simple: the charger bills what goes out, the car registers what comes in after cable losses.
actually the (Ionity) charger bills you for what comes in so you are also paying for the AC/DC conversion losses. Tesla Superchargers are the only ones to bill for the DC arriving at the car
@@applicationsbroad7283
That doesn’t make sense if you are being charged for what comes in - it means you are getting the electricity you paid for!
Just found your channel, love it!