VW ID.4 v Tesla Model 3 EV Road Trip - efficiency/charging speed/real world range, AND then a RACE!
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- Опубліковано 24 бер 2021
- #tesla #id4 #model3v
Driving a new Volkswagen ID4 1st Edition side by side with a Tesla Model 3 Long Range from Edinburgh to London AND BEYOND!
Efficiency
Real-world range
Charging Speed
Ionity output discrepancy - can anyone explain why?
And then we race home! Surely the Tesla will win?
Can the Tesla manage Leeds to Bournemouth WITHOUT STOPPING?
See our full in depth review of the VW ID4 here - • VW ID.4 full review by...
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The amount of power going into the car isn't exactly the amount the battery gets, it depends how efficient the car is with managing that power. A lot can be lost to heat for example. Bjorn Nyland does some good videos comparing the efficient in that regard! :)
I was surprised to hear that question from the guy who is using BEV for years :).
exactly, plus, Tesla is heating battery, as Bjorn Nyland demonstrated so many times, many cars do that too, so charger must show more energy used than actually went into battery. Bjorn also did a test of charging efficiency (at least it gives a guideline) at various charging speeds, etc.
@@wfm125m Me too. I was truly shocked :) While supercharging there will be always loses.
So the charger reports the energy delivered and the vehicle reports the energy that went into the battery. Sounds right to me as there are some losses associated with the charging process. No surprises here. I expect the amount of energy loss will increase for faster charging rates.
I’m sure reviewer does know about losses, that can be up to 10% between charge delivered/received - he just wants to get the comments flooding in.
Bjorn has shown many times that stopping at 10% and charging to 60% twice is much faster than driving to a very low SOC and going to 90%. A two shortstop strategy is better than one long stop for other reasons as well. Both the comfort of the driver and passengers as well as to avoid issues if a charger fails as there is enough charge for plan B but not if the long drive to a low state leaves you stranded.
I know. I reference that in the video that when we drove up, we had less than an hour of charging and arrived with 30%
@@RSEV Driving an EV requires an F1 team to work out the pit stop strategy 🏎️
@@djwarren5081 You don’t need an F1 team but just some preparation and good sense.
@@patrickgass5707 that counts me out then 😂
@@djwarren5081 It’s easy. Have a large Starbucks coffee before you start and when you need a wee you charge the car at the same time (and get another coffee). Repeat as required. :)
I have owned my id4 for 3 days. And put approx 800km on it. And I can sell my diesel with ease now
For long road trips, I’ll never sell my diesel. For local driving, the electric is superior.
No range anxiety at all?
@@Raggadish. nope. It’s super. Easy Get 440 one charge
@@hawolex2341 im nervous
@@hawolex2341 using my now sold bmw 318d as a reference point, managed 72mpg which would equate to 1,300km range on 1 full tank, yes would cost more, but im still waiting on more efficient higher energy lower cost batteries to come out
I was returning home from visiting my sister last night and stopped at a Tesla V3 supercharger that’s capable of up to 250kW charging. I was at 6% when I plugged in and hit a max rate of 233kW!! In about 10-11 min I was at 50% state of charge. Unplugged and continued my trip. It feels great to see a charging stop come close to a gas fueling stop from a temporal standpoint
What Tesla do you own that can charge that fast for 10+ mins?
@@rjbiker66 I own a 2020 Model 3 and it’s capable of up to 250kW charging rates. I plugged in at a very low state of charge and maxed out at 233kW. I couldn’t believe it myself. Funny thing is that when I plug into the 150kW units, I rarely get close to the full rate of 150kW. It’s possibly because I usually don’t let my car get that low on charge
@@alexc6946 SR+ or LR?
@@rjbiker66 It's the LR Performance model
@@rjbiker66 I have stats for charging at about 230kw in my LR Model 3.
Congratulations, your channel is today, in my humble opinion, among the best for the quality of the information provided 👏🏻
Great video, regarding discrepancies, it is charging losses. The chargers delivered more than the car took, because some is lost in heat and energy conversion. Conversion of energy from electrical to chemical is not 100% efficient.
Great video Richard! Thanks a lot for taking the time to make it, really professional! I think there's now no disputing there is a real affordable alternative for the average family to go electric. Look forward to seeing the full review.
Thank you. We’ll try and film the full review of the car itself tomorrow
Richard and team, another great real-world view video; really informative. You didn't mention how much the IONITY charging session(s) actually cost though? I've seen IONITY units charge as much as £0.61 per KwH. Keep the videos coming, always informative.
Excellent informative and totally useful and practical test and review. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Looking forwar to the follow ups..Stay safe.
Superchargers are not made for charging car up to 100% instead you just charging it for reach next supercharger! That way you will cover the distance much faster
You mentioned a lack of passing power in eco mode. There is a button switch under the gas pedal. If you push the pedal all the way down and get past that switch it will kick it out and give you full power regardless of the mode you have selected.
As others have posted heat and losses in charging result in higher energy usage than the car receives. If cold, a proportion of the energy is also used to heat the battery, or run air con if you are in the car.
Brilliant video Richard. Loving what you publish so thank you.
Thank you for the kind words! We have lots more to follow. Just finding the time...!
Excellent video, really informative. I know I will need to make the leap from my 4th diesel X5 and the key challenge is I make regular (7 or 8 times a year) 300 mile trips to Cornwall and always do it without a stop (psychologically I can cope with 4 hrs but not 5!). I’ve also occasionally do Calais to Nice with one stop) so your trips do still seem a real faff. I get it though and am nearly there!
Absolute fantastic comparison based on real world scenario! Thanks
Great real world example, my bladder would have required more stops than those cars actually need. So to be safe, responsible anything that can travel over 3 hrs on a motorway is great really.
Can't charge a car in the time it takes to do a piss though can you?
Strange how all the HGV and business drivers manage to drive 3 hours or more without issues....
Interesting video! Would have liked to see if charging at the Supercharger would have made a difference in the charging times. :)
Should have done a "slash and dash" on the Ionity, then used the V3 at Mansfield. Would have charged fast and had no range/speed issue.
But, this was better than the (stupid) Carwow "run to empty" test.
I completely agree with you
100% agree, I actually feel like this is a disadvantage for Tesla. Ionity chargers are literally owned by Volkswagen and the other automakers, so of course, they are going to be more optimized for their cars. Same with Teslas and their superchargers.
I mean, I don't actually care that much, but I feel like this fact makes the charging competition pretty irrelevant.
@@NormanGaming196 Tesla Superchargers are leagues ahead of ionity. More locations and more stalls each location. And the in-car nav will take you there whenever you need to charge. No faffing with an app or remembering passwords. Just press the button and plug it in.
Yes they could have stopped at the tesla superchargers at the back of the hotel near washington services and the vw could have popped into the services to charge up
Throw an eNiro into the mix...that tends to do well in terms of efficiency. Slow charging though. I look forward to seeing what the the Ioniq 5 and KIA EV6 can do...
The reason for the kWh discrepancy is heat loss - via the cables + the cars.
I'm an electric car owner and found your 1 stop vs 2 stop really interesting. thanks
Would've liked to see all on day £cost for charging.
Great video! Question: at time 7:48 why do you need a dashcam in the Tesla?
The 1% rocking up to the first station must've caused some anxiety! Good video 😊
Most EVs actually have about a 20 mile buffer beyond 0%, though they start to heavily limit your speed.
Preheating the car and getting the battery up to temp has a massive effect on our ID.3. We are getting 210 miles plus in winter and hope to get 240 miles plus in summer. Our ID.3 only has the 58kWh pack but is lighter with less drag.
The discrepancy between kWh delivered by the charger and the kWh added to the battery (which is what the TM3 shows on its screen) is the energy lost on heat in the internal electronics, cables and internal battery resistance which varies by the current temperature of the cells. Also, most modern EVs use some energy to warm up the battery during charging to be able to increase the charging speed and/or protect the cells.
I like the way you are in Alice through the looking glass world around the 18 minute mark ! As everyone else has said the discrepancy on charging is simply down to charging inefficiency, what the charger puts out isnt what gets into the car.
A very professional production. Made me realise that owning an EV is a realistic prospect. What range anxiety!
It comes because you realise that the chargers rarely work.
You need to leave a buffer in the battery
@@Robert-cu9bm I think that keeping the Chargers running is the biggest problem for EVs.
@@Demobot1
People will not convert the whole time the network is unreliable. Especially if they don't have a driveway or have multiple cars.
@@Robert-cu9bm I agree with you. It's nearly impossible to push EVs to the general public that lives in apartments and don't have access to a plug at their residence. Unless the government is going to mandate something along those lines there is a long way to go.
@@Robert-cu9bm Indeed Robert. I've read about people arriving at chargers that don't work. Another reason that folk come to the conclusion that a Tesla with the Supercharger network is currently the best option.
13:30 Ionity charge delievered shows A/C usage and other electronics. Inside the car for the Tesla it shows the amount of charge into the battery only. That is the reason why the ionity charger shows a higher armount of KWh delivered
"downhill" doesn't make a difference.
"West" is faster because the earth is rotating under you!!
🙄😉
Really interesting review for the VW ID4. From a practical pov, it is great to have real world 70mph car journeys, and the realistic range achieveable without 'range anxiety' - I can see myself fully EV in the near future - currently self charging hybrid. Thank you.
OMG A TALKING CAR!!!
If you own a Prius, an EV won't save much money if using public charging the entire time.
Good comparison, vlog. Interesting that the stall said you charged so much, and the car stated a different amount? I would go by what the car states, so could be costing more, than what the car actually received?? Thanks really enjoyed watching. 👍👍
would have been interesting number of kW used and cost difference. for the same run.
Not just time to charge/speee...can we also get an idea of the cost.of the charges.
Brilliant video, really enjoyed the comparison.
Really helpful video. Those two cars might be an option for me in the near future. Can I ask what did the trips cost in relation to charging using those chargers that you did, and how would that have compared against the Tesla Superchargers? Many thanks
250 is Supercharger V3, max on IOnity is 200.
I managed 200 in Germany with my 3P on the autobahn.
Regarding power added: Some cars (like MOdel 3) can heat the car etc through the charger, while charging.
Brilliant video. How long did the journey take and how much did it cost for each car ?
From the charge port to the battery you always have some losses. This is why it displays more, of course Ionity cannot tell the amount that goes insode the battery since each car is different. The video has been very interesting btw
16:59 Spot the model 3 driver reaching for the gear selector but turning on the wipers instead, haha. I have done this so many times when driving other cars!
Nice vid! You did well with the technicalities.
Great video - keep it up!!
Excellent, informative and well produced. How do you manage to run a busy business and be a film producer? I always look forward to the next one. Roll on the Model Y, then you can do more head to head tests!
And just spotted that the Tesla has mudflaps, that will be detrimental to efficiency at the speeds you were running!
Great video. I was hoping you would also talk about which car is more comfortable, which one has better seats, etc. Range is just one aspect of deciding which car to buy. Thank you
Lucky fella! My Aunty, Uncle and Cousins live in Bournemouth.......... 300 days of sun every year!
Thanks, great review! Of course, better comparison would be Model Y vs ID4... apples with apples.
Except regarding price 😜 Then it’s not anymore 🍎 to 🍏
As Model Y isn’t available in UK yet, the 3 and ID4 seems like a fair comparison.
As others are saying, I would assume that the Ionity charger shows electricity drawn from the grid. There will then be losses as it goes through the charger and into the car. The car will report electricity which has made it into the battery so the gap is most likely losses in the charging process. Obviously Ionity will charge you for all electricity they draw from the grid for your session as they will be being charged for that.
Fantastic video. Really interesting comparison.
Thanks for the comparison! Just found out today that the ID.4 is on the company car list, but as I do sometimes drive from Surrey to Edinburgh, or sometimes into Germany and beyond, I initially dismissed it (despite the BIK advantage for company car drivers). However, your test has shown that with a bit of careful planning, long journeys don't have to mean stopping every hour for a recharge !!
Zap-map is your friend 👍
Another video about to go live with more about the ID4 in detail. Nit-picking bits we didn’t like. But don’t get me wrong, fantastic car. Should go live this evening.
@@RSEV The overtaking issue had you looking like a change of underwear was required though?
Great video thanks Richard
can't believe i was so excited about that race ahah nice job guys and nice job VW
I guess you could have been much quicker by including additional one or two short charges for example from 5% to 40% in 15 minutes rather than charging to 100%.
Yea and I comment that we did the drive up with less than hour charging and still arrived with 30% in the Long Range because we made multiple quick stops
What people don't take into account with this method is the several minutes it takes getting off the highway and then back on. Some chargers are RIGHT off the highway which is great but others are 5-10 minutes off and then 5-10 minutes back on. I think the best way to do it is somewhere in-between.
@@AlijahSimon in general the IONITY chargers are located next to highway’s. Tesla chargers are sometimes a bit further away
@@patrickgass5707 I'm in the US and I find that Electrify America (US equivalent of Ionity) and Tesla superchargers are about equal in their distance from off ramps
@@AlijahSimon I am living in France and in Europe Tesla chargers are sometimes a little off the highway (highway’s are privately operated). IONITY might have negotiated a special deal with the highway operators which might explain the high charging costs
This video really highlights what the EV engineers should be focusing on. They should target ranges that match what people would normally drive before wanting to stop for food or toilet break and faster charging speeds, faster charging speeds faster charging speeds. Did I say faster charging speeds? The IONIQ 5/KIA EV 6/ Genesis GV60 will all have 800V charging. Then range isn't such a big deal. Thanks (from Toronto) for the great video.
The voltage isn't particularly relevant to charging speeds, it's more about the charge curve of the battery, which is set up to balance charge speed against battery degradation. The battery cooling system has a much larger effect.
@@jonathanmelhuish4530 Voltage isn't relevant? Yahhhh, no.
You had both "known faults"
Navigation
Charger handshake.
Really good video. It’s nice to see we are getting some great cars out that are well capable of long distance driving. You would of realistically need to of stopped that long for a toilet and a coffee stop to stretch your legs with a petrol car. The other thing with these cars they make you have to stop for that rest which can only be a good thing from a safety standpoint. We drive the Kia e Niro which is also a capable long distance car. Not as quick to charge but still a great car.
Just found your channel, love it!
Heat and charging losses if about 5% are normal. Charger dispensed more than battery stored and Charles you for the total dispensed.
Apologies if this has been asked already but did ID4 have heat pump fitted?
Yes, nicely done. As an (otherwise happy) model 3 owner, I would give up quite a bit to have a hatchback. On the other hand , I was put off the excellent ID.3 we tried by the software. Sounds as if it still needs some work!
But my question is... if the Model 3 had started with 100% charge instead of 90%, would he still have needed to slow down a bit on the final leg?
The IDs software has changed quite a bit since their launch, it's much better now and all the small issues are gone.
What spec was the id4? Must have missed that bit. . Very interesting!
Was there not a Tesla Supercharger station with 250 Kilowatts charging speed. I have seen my 2018 LR RWD hit 225 Kilowatts for a short period on a V3 Tesla supercharger.
Did you use Range mode on the M3? Range mode will prevent it from pre-heating the battery.
What about the info system on the id4?, heard it’s not very good
How long did the overall journey take
Compared to just getting into a diesel and doing same,
Start with 90% from home, race to the nearest charger at 10% and charge until you reach the next supercharger, and do not wait! Charge again, but never go over 80% (you will loose time). You can use abetterrouteplanner to add specific settings, start SoC, needed SoC at destination, arrive at waypoints, etc. In winter I would charge before the arrival fast, and not after I start the next roadtrip with cold battery
Richard! Would you choose an ID4 over a Skoda Enyaq?? I know they are virtually the same car but just canvassing your experienced opinion. Thanks Lee
Thank you for such a good informative video. Cheers
What was the cost to charge them at the Ionity station.?
Awesome real world comparison!
If the car is charging with lots of Amps there are also higher losses, for instance in the cable.
At some point these cables will need liquid cooling to keep them cool enough to allow these high currents to flow without melting the cable.
When driving EVs, you should drive the speed you want, and charge just enough to get to the next charger. It’s very slow to charge above about 50-60% SOC.
With the etron it isn't, it's just getting warm at 50-60. 😅
@@abraxastulammo9940 That’s true, but you also need the higher SOC to reach the next charger;)
@@TheSteinbitt I hear VW supports the rollout of lots and lots of BP stations with HPC (Aral in Germany).
Yes, the ID.4 still charges at around 100 kW at 50%, which ramps down to around 65 kW at 73% (and then it stays at 65 kW until 83%).
@@abraxastulammo9940 yep!
It depends on that the ionity charger shows how much it puts out, but some of the power from the ionity charger becomes heat in the cable. Everything doesnt end up in the car battery
Super comparison review, thanks for posting. I sold my Tesla M3LR in February and ordered an ID4 77kw (First Edition); can't wait for it to arrive.
I believe the difference between the two figures will be due to heat loss during the charging process. What could also add to that is if you were running the climate during charging.
Yep - the difference is due to losses through heat
Hi great video could you add the charging costs and compare them to gasoline for the same mileage please in your wrap up.
Regarding the apparent disparity in kWh during recharging, this may actually reflect the charging losses which are around 5%. 5% of 70kWh is 3.5kWh. Looks like it.
Why didn't you say how much it cost to charge the car when you stopped at ionity and bp?
Ionity £0.69p BP £0.25 non member £0.15 if a member for 50kw and 0.42 non member 0.27 member for 150kw
"Let me just check the route, the satnav still thinks I'm in Scotland" 😂
VW at it’s most helpful
Could you do a range test on the VW Id.3 pro s tour. I have just ordered one
Hi Richard. New to your channel- enjoying the content.
I think viewers would appreciate if you could mention how much it has cost you to charge the cars when making these journeys.
How much did the id4 cost to do the 500 miles and then back to full charged
Im wondering i thought you said 220 miles at start which woukd surely be the 55kw id4 not the 77kw?
4:28 what it doesn't have kick down!? i thought that was standard thing, i had it on leaf and corsa e
Ionity bills you for charging losses. Tesla doesn't.
This isn’t true, at least in the US. My Model 3 always shows less energy going into the battery than what I get billed for. You have to look at the invoice you get for the charging expenses
I've noticed being charged for kw in rather than added ( UK )
And Ionity cost per Kwh is often double than the Tesla super chargers
I'm surprised you don't regularly see 250 kW charging speed in your Model 3. At that temperature over here in the US, I always get 250 kW when navigating to a v3 Supercharger and arriving with under 20% left in the battery.
My guess is that the Tesla limits non-Superchargers to a speed its comfortable pulling into the battery. And if they had gone to the Supercharger nearby, it would have greatly increased the kwh.
@@FatherDragonKal he said he's never seen it hit those top advertised speeds on superchargers and that's my experience too, max I have seen is 129 or so but that lasts a few seconds only
@@FatherDragonKal Speed limit is 500 Amps, so 190+ kW and it was preheated by entering nearby supercharger as destination.
This only happens in superchargers. 3rd party chargers cannot deliver the amps at 400v model 3 pack voltages. To deliver 350kw on Ionity you need to have a 800v pack. V3 Superchargers with liquid cooled cables can deliver nearly 1000amps.
@@Robbie6298 ah, thank you! I knew that at one time, but had forgotten. Here in the US we can't charge Teslas at Ionity equivalent Electrify America (except via CHAdeMO adapter at 50 kW).
Really interesting video, if more people watched this, range anxiety would be a thing of the past. Looking forward to hearing about the charge amount discrepancy as well :)
Thanks Richard, great insight into the ID.4. I have an Enyaq on order, so this has really put some minor concerns to bed.
And the ID4 is way more practical and bigger. Also much cheaper (at least in Sweden) Good to see someone else than Tesla making EVs that are effective.
Beror på vilken utrusta man väljer till iofs.
Just satisfy my curiosity. Why did you mirror - image your video starting at the BP PULSE stopping point?
For some reason phone recorded a mirror video 🤔
4.45 and the views he mentioned, background looks like he is near Berwick upon tweed. In case anyone is wondering.
Very good comparison and race as well, I personally needed this Kind of comparison/review so many thanks for doing it.
Isnt the chargers value what it outputs. What the car shows is what it’s put into the battery after losses. (I believe it’s supposed to be 87% efficient to charge the battery isn’t it?)
Reminds Mr of petrol.. when you top up petrol I have noticed that difference in mileage topping up at different service stations, for example, let's say shell and sainsbury petrol stations have the same ltr prices, top up paying £30 will get you 300miles yet the other 280 (example). Check it out yourself
12:50 Battery charging always have some loses and additional consumption. There will be some waste heat generated due to internal resistance in the battery cell and in cables and fuse and heating / cooling of battery. Also consumption for charging 12 V battery through DC-DC converter, cabin heating and to power computers and electronics.
Another point is where is energy displayed on charger pole measured? Ionity charger input is AC (230 / 400 VAC), that goes through AC to DC conversion and DC to DC conversion (step up / step down), with a HPC like 350 kW they will have liquid cooling in cables so power for pumps are needed, where as a 50 kW charger do not require liquid cooling. The energy sent through cable to the EV is less than charging station require to perform the particular charging. Whether the measurement is done on input or output side may depend on local regulation.
Great Video! I *think* the 350 kW Ionity chargers need an 800 volt car like the Porsche Taycan. Watts = Amps x Volts. On a 400 volt car (like most EV cars - not sure about the ID4) it will be limited to 175 kW max (430 Amps). I'm not 100% sure, but that's my understanding. A 250 kW v3 Tesla Supercharger can push more Amps, at over 600, but only for a fairly short period of time, and under specific battery state of charge (SoC) and temperatures.
Once you get into the 'rhythm' of EV road trips, the crazy fast charging times matter less than you first think.
There will be some loss when charging as it’s not 100% efficient, there is also heat, any auxiliary use (heating in the car) and any warming the car does to warm the battery (M3 uses the motors to warm the battery you heard a buzzing sort of noise, no idea if the id does something similar)
How would the Model 3 LR do using Tesla chargers?
It costs energy to fill a battery, this is known as the charging efficiency, this is why on a significant charging session you'll typically see a delta between the energy delivered by the car and the energy received by the car. The energy between what was sent by the charger will be lost as heat, as well as some drain from the cars systems managing the battery back and dealing with the heat of charging
Very enjoyable video, I especially like the bit near the end where you move the ID4’s steering wheel to the left side of the car, that’s novel !!!!
The discrepancy in energy added is what the charger puts out versus what the car stores in the batteries. After heat losses through charging inefficiencies and things like having the AC running will create that discrepancy.
A reasonable explanation for the charging discrepancy is that the Ionity charger measures the actual energy used for charging the battery and not the actual energy stored in the battery. 81kWh of energy consumed with a 94.1% efficiency will do 99% of the 77kWh of the usable capacity of the battery.
Please note that the actual energy stored in the battery is also a variable (especially with cars in there run in period) and the vehicle will eventually become a little bit more efficient.
ionity also bills you for heat losses and for energy cost to run the cooling pumps for the charger.
Very well done 😀