@@lmaoroflcopter No stats but I have 10 displaying business KPIs (just like advertising) and stuff and 30 on the shop floor as production terminal web clients
Advertising screens are migrating to Android boxes. Much nicer gui toolkits, proper video support, and the software can run on multiple vendors devices with little to no modifications. I do miss the simplicity of just replacing a card to fix whatever is wrong with the device, but emmc storage is more reliable and vendors are now supporting removable emmc
@@nelsonoliveira5374 I was evaluated digital signage two years ago and went with easescreen and Intel UHD 620 Integrated Graphics. What is the preferred choice these days?
@aR Remo: Can you imagine this behavior with other products? Raspberry became quite mainstream these days (if you see which channels are covering it, e.g.).
No, Eben Upton said the dual output was the result of a request from one of the major thin-client companies, I can't recall which possibly Citrix. The 1GB version makes an outstanding thin client with dual 4k displays. What everybody seems to be forgetting that is that the RPi is meant to be a good modular base that enables people to explore in as many directions as possible. Just because you cannot personally see the value in a design choice does not mean it does not have value. And when it comes to releasing products that will need further updates, are you serious? Firstly this is the first Pi that can actually receive firmware updates, and they have already confirmed some now the product has been released they have more resources available to improve the firmware (there is one being tested with better heat management right now). And secondly, I don't know of a single PC manufacturer that releases it's product to market and not once releases a BIOS update ever again. That's just insane. I get people love the first generation of RPi's and got used to their behavior, but to expect these types of performance increase without heat generation (look at any other competing SBC and seehow much heat they produce) is just silly, especially for £35!
@@AndyNicholson Vendors that have a clear goal in mind and do proper testing don't need to issue post-release firmware updates. Actually having the possibility of firmware updates should not be seen as a positive. I rather they be forced to recall millions of devices if they are so stupid as to release faulty hardware. It used to be this way in the old days and people created better products. These days the marketplace is flooded with low quality garbage where you have to wait months until all issues are fixed.
One small addition:The RPi3B+ already had Gigabit Ethernet. But was attached to the USB controller, limiting it's speed to about 300MBit. Now, with the RPi 4 it's directly attached and runs at (almost) full speed.
Thr reason why the RAM is faster is because it's DDR4 not because it's more (bit confusing in the video). This is also very beneficial for GPU performance since it shares the memory.
@@jackpatteeuw9244 Because of Raspbian, you need a specialized distro for media consumption. My original RPi is perfectly capable of playing 1080p 30fps in OpenELEC.
@@jackpatteeuw9244 because its going to be a while before the drivers are fixed. Honestly the same as the other compatibility problems he mentioned. So no surprise really.
The rpi 3b+ already has gigabit. But it's connected with usb 2.0 that's why it cannot do more than 300Mbps. The rpi 3b was 100Mbps. That's why there's a x10 improvement over rpi 3b but only 3x over rpi 3b+
@@AndreasSpiess so finally you are only a human being? Thx for the video. BTW I ordered from the same shop. I registered to receive an email when more is available and I jumped on 2 rpi 4 4gb Friday after receiving a notification.
YUp . but event he Gbps is not capable of more then 300Mbps ... in any case I think the Gb interface is over kill, but I truly understand the option to include a full Gb ethernet interface ... competition...competition ... :)
@@John_Smith__ no on rpi 4 the gibabit can actually do 933 Mbps. That a pretty decent performance 933 when theorical maximum is 1000... the bottleneck was that the network chip was on usb 2 on rpi3b+. Now it's on usb 3. Edit: in fact it's integrated in the SOC: "The Ethernet controller on the main SoC is connected to an external Broadcom PHY over a dedicated RGMII link, providing full throughput. USB is provided via an external VLI controller, connected over a single PCI Express Gen 2 lane, and providing a total of 4Gbps of bandwidth, shared between the four ports."
@@cmuller1441 I know, I was mentioning the 300Mbps on the RPi3B+ ... it's only a 300Mpbs since it is run on a USB 2.0 chip ... well it's better then 100Mbps ... but not yet comparable with 933Mbps (on USB3) on the RPi4 ... Again I fully understand the option but it comes at a price of pushing more Amps ... even like that the 28nm SoC is a very good thing. I think we all wanted them to have a "Uber Chip" made on 7nm :) and using less power but that will not come anytime soon, specially not at the 35$US price tag ... :(
Stacking would be preferable, I think. There's not much, if any, cost difference between two micro-HDMI and a stack. www.aliexpress.com/item/19pins-HDMI-Connector-SMT-Double-HDMI-Stacked-Thru-Hole-type-Sockets-HDMI-Female-Jack-Connectors-Socket/32821896074.html Maybe on the RPi 4B+. :)
@@jimb032 I meant just 1 HDMI, I don't need dual video, I would rather have the specs be focused to 1 screen rather than 2. As a separate model, but with the same specs.
@@macemoneta The RPF has confirmed that a stacking connector was not only too large for the PCB, but it put an incredible bending moment (an engineering term) on the PCB - enough to potentially snap the board when in a case and plugging into the top port.
@@gabriels5885 Thank you, somebody here is using logic and reason when talking about this board, I genuinely do not understand why people are hating on it so much. The RPiF didn't just decide on a whim to make this the way they did, there was thought and process behind every single detail.
Maybe the CPU cores will then be able to use all that improved memory bandwidth that's available, since it's not having to feed images out to HDMI displays! One can hope.
TechWizPC that’s faster connection than my Threadripper workstation platform... it has a 2 gigabit port and a single gigabit port. You would have to use an external networking card (I’m already using most of the PCIe lanes, I run 4x GPU and I’ll soon have NVME raid for storage). I imagine the 10 gigabit port costs the whole price of the pi!
In this case, why don't you buy Odroid HC1 instead :/ They removed all unnessary parts for this purpose, including the HDMI and adding fast Ethernet + SATA :))
This, very technical, video has lot of technical errors. For example in video RPi3 network is referred as 100 Mbps (wrong) and yet the benchmark table shows 332 Mbps (right). Benchmark table shows CPU speed regression (definitively wrong), while video calls it 20% improvement (wrong again). For one the table columns are switched. And even then, that cpu benchmark is absurd. It is a very simple number cruncher. And all it measured was linear scaling of performance with cpu frequency increase from 1.2 GHz to 1.5 GHz. In real life A72 in RPi4 is *much* stronger than A53 from RPi3.
The new Raspberry does not support hardware based decoding of Googles VP9 codec and thus the performance on UA-cam ist not great and most likely never will be. You can see the supported codecs at 5:20 . VLC player just needs further work to run smoothly, especially for hardware decoding when playing a supported video.
The user community does not have unfettered access to its GPU functionality. This is the biggest hangup for the rPi platform to me ... things like Cinnamon and UA-cam work poorly without hardware acceleration, making the desktop experience disappointing. Well, at least we can get 4 gig now. Have heard that there is support for VLC now, but not tried yet.
I had come to the same conclusions regarding the Pi 4 but I am still grateful for your well reasoned "contrarian" review. One minor disagreement with you is the switch to USB C power. Most makers would have been happier with a coaxial barrel connector. I've had power issues with all of the Pi's from the very beginning, I usually power through the GPIO header but have accidently destroyed more than one Pi .
I share your preference for coaxial connectors: the micro-USB power connector is probably my biggest complaint about the Pi. I can see how it might have seemed like a good idea at the beginning, since a lot of people (especially the students it was aimed at) have spare phone chargers. But it's a real nuisance when you're trying to build something compact. I think the reason they've stuck with it is probably one that came up in the discussion about using micro HDMI: lack of board space. A 5.5 jack would take up twice as much space as the SMD micro USB. I found some "bare" micro B connectors on ebay a few months ago. They only protrude about 1cm, so I'm going to try them for projects that need to fit in compact enclosures. The description was "uxcell 15pcs Micro USB B Type 5 Pins Male Jack Socket Solder Silver Tone" if you want to search for it. Annoyingly, the seller has gone from USD8 for a pack of 15 with free shipping to adding a USD9.99 shipping charge, so you might want to look for another supplier.
I totally agree. Watched too many reviews. But none of those even test 4k and 1080p video. I requested, and some genius said that 4k IS supported by the spec, that I'm ignorance for asking 😂
@@CNCH_HungNC 4K video works, but not with Raspbian (yet). OpenELEC alpha 9.2 supports h.265 (HEVC) 4K decoding. The hardware is amazing, but the software guys are still a bit behind. Just take a deep breath and wait a bit.
First of all this guy assumes that the software will not improve in a short time. Get the 4GB version and have fun with it! Don't worry about the software issues, they will be fixed before you know it!
At 4:38 and forward you say that the RPi 4 supports gigabit ethernet instead of the "ancient 100Mbit one" and "the potential speed increase of 10 times ends in a factor of three"; but that's quite wrong, and you make it sound like the RPi4 doesn't achieve the full potential here, when it actually does! Gigabit was introduced with the RPi3B+, but because the ethernet chip was connected via USB2, the throughput was limited to about 330Mbps, as you can also see in the chart; so the RPi3B+ had the "potential speed increase of 10x" and failed to achieve it. With the improved USB3 support on the RPi4, that bottleneck is gone, and the RPi4 increases the throughput all the way up to 933Mbps, i.e, close to the full theoretical max throughput of gigabit ethernet. So the RPi4 does in fact achieve the full 10x increase over 100MBps ethernet such as was available on the RPi3; and you seem to have missed the RPi3B+'s "gigabit bit with only 1/3 the throughput" support in between - even though you could see that the throughput of the 3B+ was clearly well above what 100Mbps ethernet could ever achieve.
Not usb3: "The Ethernet controller on the main SoC is connected to an external Broadcom PHY over a dedicated RGMII link, providing full throughput." Cit. Raspberry Pi website. ETH has dedicated link.
@@agneevX on the raspberry pi site: "USB is provided via an external VLI controller, connected over a single PCI Express Gen 2 lane, and providing a total of 4Gbps of bandwidth, shared between the four ports."
Hey Andreas, great vid as per usual. Have you tried using the h264ify extension on chrome? It “makes UA-cam stream H.264 videos instead of VP8/VP9 videos”, and might allow the hardware acceleration to kick in.
I don't know. It could be said mission critical in some case. I have Nas myself, but because of it's fairly low usage and power consumption I transfered into NUC with omv and I back that up to Nas occasionally. That of course doesn't mean that I would like my NUC to have problems between backups. I could think using Rpi and omv with same idea and I would like it to be "semi" mission critical reliability wise
According to www.tomshardware.com/reviews/raspberry-pi-4-b,6193.html "GPIO pins now support four additional I2C, SPI and UART connections." Also there was a bug about "I2C clock stretching" on previous versions which I saw a comment about, saying it was fixed in the Pi4.
I basically only use RPI for Retro gaming, my RPI 3B+ has a 128 GB micro SD plugged into it which has much more space for games than it can really use, so I'm not bothered by micro SD cards in the PI. My rule for new devices is simple, watch the new release, have fun watching all the early adopters freak out over lack of support for their favorite programs and bugs that need squishing. Then, after six months to a year later, the shiny new device I wanted has been debugged and all the programs I love to use have been updated to work on it, I go out and buy it, I seem to have fewer headaches going this route. But seriously, until RetroPie has been updated to work with RPI 4B for at least a few months I can wait to get my hands on this, I might even a bit longer wait for a B+ version. I would have preferred a single larger HDMI (I would have stacked 2 full HDMI ports, not a fan of micros) instead of the micros but oh well, they went that route, at least I will have a spare HDMI port in case the first one dies. The upgrades to USB 3 and 4GB Ram are welcome additions that should help my retro gaming machine run smoothly.
It would be nice if the new version of Retropie somehow used the dual screen support. Maybe local multiplayer with GBA or Game Gear. I know one of the Gameboy emulators literally do this by putting two displays up on the same screen but it only works for certain games and can be glitchy as hell.
What is the problem with SD card usage? I am running RPi with an SD as Octoprint and printserver for few years no problem. You do 4 changes to raspbian and make it boot read only, remounting to read/write during system updates. Works no problem. And with 4GB of RAM as a ramdisk will be perfect...
Running something like HomeAssistant with activity logging to "disk" can wear out MicroSD cards. Of course, in the unusual cases where it can work as read-only, it can run just fine.
@@JohnnieHougaardNielsen If I need extensive logging, I am sending it to networked BananaPi with SSD drive in SATA or just mount nfs share out of the same ;)
@@jwcolby54 - Lots of DIY usage of electronic/digital things happens without boring details like design specifications. And even for people already knowing of SD card longevity limitations, a Pi better suited for a broad range of small server use cases could be a welcome improvement. For me, considerations about SD card wear was a reason to instead use a NUC-like computer with SSD as smarthome server, including logging of MQTT readings of climate data and power usage.
@@JohnnieHougaardNielsen lol. I was being facetious. Of course not everyone understands the limitations. That said, the pi is what it is. You are responsible for using it within it's limitations. I can use a quarter ton pickup to haul a ton and complain about broken shocks or I can use a different solution. Just sayin.
The board was about ~5mm too large up until the last month of design and is six layers thick of circuitry, and they used microHDMI because there was no room for even one standard HDMI left. Now where, do you think, would they fit the eMMC?
@@AndreasSpiess The RPF has said this repeatedly this will NEVER happen in the RPi Model B, because there is literally NO room on the PCB which is already 6 layers thick with circuitry without causing significant interference with all of the other parts. The board was actually ~5mm too thick because of all the wires until the last stage of design due to wiring difficulties. They couldn't fit even one standard-size HDMI because of lack of room. And now, you want eMMC? You can stop wishing.
I'm not convinced that RPi4 is suitable for AI. Most AI applications are video recognition, and I don't think video decoding and NN execution on CPU is the best choice. It's much better to offload such computations to GPU. A much better choice for AI this would be nvidia jetson nano. I have one big concern about RPi4 - heat. It looks like this board can get much hotter than previous versions. A competition like NanoPi M4 has SOC on bottom of PCB, so you are able to add big heatsink in the bottom to have passive and efficient cooling. In RPi4 they suggest having still the small heatsinks? This will result in throttling CPU and slow down. I'm disappointed they didn't address that issue.
MFBcode training a NN is best done on a gpu, but a CPU can frequently be used for object identification. There's a ton of resources for doing CV processes on a pi.
As Daniel points out: Training models and executing them are not equally power hungry. Many RPi applications seem to use trained models and only execute them. But I am by no means an AI specialist...
Good video. I saw people saying you could use this as your main desktop, but when youtube is so choppy (mine is too, a 2GB version) then it isn't really usable. I feel like the port changes are a bit strange, firstly flipping the ethernet and USB... was there some unfixable PCB routing problem? Second the HDMI - I can't imagine many people needing dual HDMI (if you wanted 2 screens for a custom solution there was the DSI display connector), single full size HDMI was easy to work with and didn't require me to buy micro HDMI cables. The upgrade to the speed of USB and ethernet is very welcome though, I expect there will be a lot used for NAS.
Darren Tarbard Having dual HDMI is useful for monitoring multiple camera feeds if you use the Pi as a home security device for instance. And apparently the advertising sector uses RPi’s a lot. And I’m sure there are more creative uses of two monitor connections. Also, let’s not forget that HDMI includes audio and connects to many monitors that people might still have lying around, whereas the DSI display connector is just video and has a flat cable connector that scares most people away from using it (not everybody is a maker).
There are a lot of applications where processor speed is less important than being able to have reasonable amounts of ram. I'd love to find a single board computer with a couple of last gen ram slots (cost over performance) so 32+ gigs of ram could be added. A couple USB ports and a gig ether ethernet port, add a single micro pcie slot or expresscard slot (max is 4 lanes?) And then just let the end user make the machine into whatever they need.
Well said, I have noticed that the CPU gets hot very quick and thats in what I would call idle mode - just the desktop displayed. I was actually thinking of using a heatsink and thermal paste on it. The increased PSU current demand with differing USB type C connector, new HDMI cable requirement do make this a more costly solution. I wonder how many channels with glowing reviews got a free sample unlike myself who bought my own one.
It's not a waste of money, really. You just can't use the features to the full extent until the software catches up. You'll be happy with it, but it won't be tomorrow...
@@AndreasSpiess IMHO actually it's not what the initial need and the idea was. I would rather turn to Omega2 from onion.io or rpi zero. This actually is bit overpriced for those small applications that i had in my mind for single board computer. But, ok, more resources, and popular platform on which you can count that it will exist in next 4-5 years is great.
Hi Andreas I don't know where to ask, but in a mailbag some time ago you got some 18650 battery holders that probably could take more amps because of the larger flat welder joint, instead ofthe small pin joint of some else battery holders you had. Have you been testing those, and how where the tests? Best greetings from Denmark :)
@@AndreasSpiess well I don't think you're that wrong. Just as mentioned cause of usb2 bus the speeds aren't nowhere near gigabit as you might initially though. New one has "straight" connection and should actually be close to gigabit connection
I use both a Pi 3B and 3B+ as desktops already, the 3B+ has a 128gig ssd hat and is perfectly usable for media, email and browsing, the Pi 4, I expect will be as good a desktop experience as many branded windows pc's. Upgrades and Version compatibilities are issues with all software.
I don't understand why they did not put the ability to boot from serial bus, code can be found everywhere for that. In 1999 I used to have a bootable iso disc that would override bios and allow you to boot from anything even if the main board did not support it. Something strange happened over 20 year span, code is lost to archives and everyone seems to forget how. What is the best SBC for now that has gigabit and usb 3? Maybe chromebook? Seem to be same price but with screen, keyboard, sata, and usb 3.0... Hmmmm...
I would add the missing 64-bit kernel support (maybe as well 64-bit user level support) booth could unlock more performance out of the Cortex-A72 CPU. The A72 includes NEON SIMD (MPE - Media Processing Engine), this will give another boost once they are on 64-bit. So lets wait for 6 month or so until the firmware and software is utilizing the new PI 4 hardware. Great video, this is mostly what I have been interested about the new PI-4 versus the non relevant promotions by many others.
@Helmut: The 64-bit transformation on Windows was a big pain if I remember right. And I would rather stick with 32 bit here if this is the case too. It seems that Linux does not have an issue with the 4GB memory border as Windows had.
@@AndreasSpiess Sure the transition is not easy, that’s why it is still on 32-bit which keeps the backward compatibility. However nowadays even Smartphones are 64-bit, the Pi4 deserves it too.
Loved this in-depth look at the RPi4! I'm new to the raspberry pi scene and would love to tryout the enviro(+) as my first project. The rpi 4 came out with an 8gb version now. Should I invest in that one or stick with a smaller memory like the 2 or 4gb?
The biggest advantage I see for the increased ram is being able to run more containers at once. I just hope that they bring docker-compose support! The other thing that you can then do is run more powerful Edge devices or a fully fledged Scada servers like Ignition
@@mykolazamkovoi7722 thanks, will definitely have a look at hypriot kernel. So far I've had no issues running containers on my 3B with stock raspbian however my ZeroW doesn't want to run, tbh I didn't spend much time trying to get it working
For those of you interested I setup a github repo with a docker compose stack for the grafana/nodered/influxdb video (ua-cam.com/video/JdV4x925au0/v-deo.html) github.com/gcgarner/raspIOTstackd
Thank you! Having USB 2 and USB 3 side by side, and then also having 2x HDMI ports, one of which is better than the other one? It's all very unintuitive for the end users. We know the difference of course, but end users can get confused easily. Plug things in to the wrong ports, etc. This in addition to needing an active cooling solution is a very large and unfortunate liability for long term deployments.
I'm looking forward to using the Pi 4 to consolidate some systems now the USB and Ethernet are faster. I will definitely be adding an active cooling system. Thanks for sharing your observations with the new Pi 4! I like the realistic perspective.
Andreas, can you please test the network adapter performance (iperf) while putting some heavy load on USB controller? There was a bottleneck on older Pi's since LAN used same USB controller as ports.
Thanks Andreas for putting a critical review of the Raspberry Pi into the endless stream of "hooray" videos. A few comments: - In my experience the RPi Foundation increase the price of older models when a new one comes out, and I expect them to do the same this time, at least when the RPi 4's are generally available (ie not sold out) - Maybe you are a bit harsh about the Debian buster part. There will always be a chicken-and-egg issue between new hardware features (that we makers crave), and stable software support for those features. But all in all: Thumbs up for the critical review and warnings about what you don't get (yet).
You can say I was too harsh. In my opinion, there was no need for the release now. And in a few month, the main software parts would have been ready. If you watch all the channels covering RPi, they are now mainstream. And with this comes some responsibility, I think. But I have to admit: This video also was an experiment for me. Many said that bad news sell and I did not want to believe. Now I know that it is true :-(
Hi Andreas I'm pretty sure you've been talking about an isolated USB to serial converter in on of your video. But I can't find it out ! I guess the main subject of that video wasn't that converter. But what video was it ?
@@AndreasSpiess I don't think it was the device you were using in the video I'm thinking about, but I'm not sure as I was not concerned at that time. It was maybe more something like this one : www.ebay.fr/itm/FT232-Isolate-USB-to-TTL-USART-USB-Isolated-Serial-Converter-Module-3-3V-5V/113325314089?hash=item1a62b71029:g:jeQAAOSwszVbzrNG Don't you remember the video it was ? I think you said it was opto-isolated. I would need to watch the video again.
Excellent The best review yet. I’m staying with my 3B+ for now. Bought 3 more for my uses. Works well. Just enough for my Plex Server just to stream my iTunes. Music. Low power. Perfect for music. Also I hate redoing my programming for my other applications
Are you sue that you used HW acceleration when you played videos? I have only tried the second gen rpi, and video worked great on that unit. It's been a while so I don't remember which resolution it provided, but playback was smooth.
You are skipping the fact that memory BANDWIDTH has increased 110% and that makes a big difference on the desktop. I find the latest Raspbian on my RPi4/2G a *LOT* more responsive compared to the 3B+ version. And I’m sure that with the further development of Buster and apps that will be recompiled for Buster will make it work even faster. It is FINE to browse the internet now on a RPi and I am surprised you find it difficult to see uses for dual HDMI, what happened to your creativity? I guess you just wanted to make your video stand-out from the other reviews that were released much earlier in the week? In any case, I was excited to see a new RPi that costs the same (1G) but now has true Gigabit Ethernet, USB3 and USB-C. Plus, some more gems are waiting as the software is further developed. That’s not vaporware Andreas, that’s called development.
Of course, the new Pi has a faster desktop. But how fast is it compared with a normal Laptop? That is what people compare if you announce a desktop version. At least this is my opinion. And this is what I did. Concerning the other topics: I agree. But it is still good to know what works now and what later. This is part of this channel. Test and inform people.
@@AndreasSpiess Compare it to a normal laptop that costs many hundreds of euros? Actually, I own a Chuwi 12.3" Lapbook that has an Intel Sandy Bridge CPU running at 1.2GHz (boost 2GHz) with eMMC (and an M.2 SSD that I built-in and boot from) and Windows 10 and I can assure you it is *less* useable as a desktop computer then the RPi, especially when there are Windows updates (of which there are many). After first boot the CPU 100% for many minutes at a time during which it is non-responsive to whatever it is I want to do. Playing UA-cam videos can only be done at 720P. And that was a 250+ euro device. Give me the RPi 4 over that any day :). Yes, the Chuwi came in a case and had a screen but it's still more expensive then the 110 euro (?) desktop kit from Raspberry. Point is, it is good to compare and inform but also to make sure people compare oranges with oranges. The Raspberry Pi foundation should do the same, I grant you that. And the other items are also important but introducing the video by saying it's gonna be a bumpy ride and calling things vaporware is programming people to dislike it in advance. I got the impression you had a bad day or something like that. Maybe you should have gone for the flowers instead of the RPi 4 that day :). Thanks for your reply.
I'm glad that you think you're somehow setting people straight, but being a skeptic is not necessarily being more intelligent than the other guy. Everybody knows that Pi's get hot. The idea that the new one, running at faster speeds would get hotter... well, it's not an excuse not to buy it. Waiting for the price of the 3b+ to drop is always an option, but not realistic if you already have a pi3b+ and want more power. And I don't understand your problem with SD cards. I like SD cards, they're small, relatively inexpensive and once they're plugged in I usually forget about them. They've worked well for me in the past and I haven't had a problem and it allows me to switch between three operating systems or more such by switching out the SD card. The idea that I should switch to a USB dongle sticking out of my pi for the sake of a few extra read-write cycles is ridiculous. I don't particularly need two HD outputs, and I would've preferred one of normal size, but I suppose some people do. I don't know how you tested the HD, other than going to UA-cam and finding a random video, so I'm going to call BS on your HD test. I think it's completely inaccurate. I watched a similar test on Explaining Computers and I haven't found any reason to doubt Barnatt's findings, they usually coincide with what I find. (Basically, streaming video is not the same as HD or 4k playing from the computer itself. It requires much more cpu and memory to accomplish the same video quality) I could go on, but basically I disagree with your weak and one-sided assessment. thumbs down.
I also like Christopher’s videos. But maybe he used a different monitor. Here you see another voice concerning 4K. lifehacker.com/the-raspberry-pi-4s-most-interesting-quirks-1835871780 . Maybe I was telling BS, maybe not. You decide.
@@AndreasSpiess I didn't say it was the monitor. I said streaming video. I don't have a pi4, but I have a 3B+. Streaming video (youtube) only works at about 720pixels and plays more smoothly at 480. However, the same 3B+ can play full 1080p HD from storage SD cards, or, if you like, the USB sticks or external drive.
As you saw in the video I tried to play two 4k videos from two different Sony cameras on my attached SSD (for speed). One played in a small window and got black when I increased the window size. The other was black all the time. But my monitor was much bigger than Christopher's (which he showed in his recent channel update)
@@AndreasSpiess I don't have the pi4 to test myself, but for all I know, this could be a software problem. I still don't understand why your review is to tell people not to buy it. If you want everything to work perfectly out of the box, you shouldn't be buying a tinker-computer without a box or cooling system in the first place.
@@cassio-eskelsen And if you used the onboard dsi ? Did you got 2 different output ?
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How does it compare with its competitors? The desktop kit how does it compare with low end note books as you have to buy a monitor or screen? If Grandad wants a low powered computer to send emails, serf the web, buy online would he want one of these or a low powered note book which can be transported anywhere you want, where as the raspberry Pi is more of a fixture.
This is not a PC channel. So there will be no such benchmarks. But given the interest, I am sure you will find them soon in the net. This review was more dedicated to Makers.
This new Raspberry Pi may not be great for your needs, but it's great for many other people. One of the main targets was always schools, and 4GB of RAM it's a lot better for that application, specially for the price. In the old versions the USB was 2.0 and the Ethernet 10/100, but the main problem was that the bus was shared between these two, so 40MB/s max total. The new one is a GREAT low consumption seedbox for example. To use as a mediacenter is always was a terrible option to use Raspbian, you need a dedicated distro for this matter. My original Raspberry Pi is perfectly capable of playing 1080p 30fps in OpenELEC with it's single core 700MHz CPU and 256MB (or 512MB I don't remember) of RAM, so I'm pretty sure this RPi is capeble of running 4K 30fps if set up correctly. The increase in network and USB speed also is important for this matter (streaming from your NAS or primary PC for example) . This may not be a great update for makers, but it's a great update for everyone else.
@@DanielMurrayMakes That should not matter. If you are going to connect a monitor, you will need an hdmi cable no matter what. Wether you buy one with standard size hdmi on both ends or one standard and one micro hdmi end does not matter.
If you made it to my "one last thing" at hte end of the video, you have heard more or less the same thing ;-) This video just wanted to show the current status. Nothing more, and nothing less.
@@lostname605 True but I was just saying it's another expense for schools that adds to the total cost without providing a significant advantage. We cannot reuse our current HDMI VGA adapters so have to buy new Mini HDMI adapters which are about 5-10 euro each. Look it's fine but it's just a strange move given that HDMI mini ports are still very much in the minority on TV screens, monitors and things that a child might have at home already in 2019 and I imagine still in 2022. With RPI 1-3's full size HDMI port most of my students have a HDMI cable at home for a TV or console that they can use. Now they all have to buy one more thing. It's not the end of the world! It's okay. It's just odd because it's now less compatible without an extra item to purchase for many kids with not a lot of money.
Of course it's not all things to all people; but for $55 (4GB model), the Pi-4 sure is a great start for someone like me who wants to do some robotics on the cheap. It is even programmable using FuzeBASIC for someone like me who grew up with BASIC and z-80 assembly on home computers in the 70s THANK YOU for a thoughtful video. All good wishes!
If you leave out the sd card (having used it for bootstrapping,) it boots reliably off your usb (ssd) hd - no fuseable link required. Running headless, I'm surprised how well it runs - runs faster than a cut cat!
I used the feature in RPI3 plus with a USB stick. Without any changes just put OS of your choice to card (I tried with Rasbian and also some Kodi distro so far). Can someone verify if the same is true for RPI4. I dont expect any difference - it should work as before (as Colin said - just don't put SD card).
Some critique: * The fact that there is a 3x increase in the network speed is the only true part in the statement on GbE (as noted by many others). * The reason given for choosing Buster is probably just PR because he didn't know better. From a technical standpoint there is a *clear* advantage of choosing the newest stable of Debian that will show over the next years when it will get increasingly hard to get new versions of applications to build and run on the old PIs. Of course some of the lower-level RPi applications have to be changed but this is way less than the zillions of Debian packages... To put this into perspective: Stretch is now 2 years old but due to Debian's development process the packages it contains are about 3-9 months older than that. This can have serious implications and makes it way harder to get support. * The second video output is very useful for video walls, advanced media centers etc.
You are right. I did a mistake with my Ethernet comment and I apologize. I can understand the "Buster decision". However, I would have wished that, with this decision, they synchronized (postponed) the HW release.
@@AndreasSpiess you mean deferring the hardware release till buster is actually released? That wouldn't have changed anything really. The vast majority if not all of the problems that will occur now (one week from release) will be RPi-specific and would not be found without people actually working on the RPi. That's an orthogonal problem to the "base OS selection" though.
You are right with the small projects. But the bigger ones (Retropi etc. had preproduction Pi4s and were just not ready with their releases. A product release end of summer/beginning of autumn would have changed a lot in my opinion,. Even name it "Beta" would have been better. Then it would have been clear that it is addressed to developers. With announcing it as a desktop replacement, they definitively left the (all forgiving) Maker space.
if you plan to put it in a case ,there are $20 case options that will eliminate any angst over the problem.... this would be more for the prolific worrier.... ;)
Very well done. Puts it all in proper perspective. In my case, I use a 3b as well as an older 2. Would love the higher USB/ETHERNET speeds, but am also concerned about what seems to be a significant increase in heat.
I tipically like you videos but here you just critique all the changes that have been made example for the dual hdmi out you could you also use it for multiplayer arcade center or even have a graphical application running on one screen and the debug on the other one. As I agree with you for the eMMC part I would think that it would raise the coste a lot a tho not stay in the 35$-ish lineup. One thing they could add is a line IN port but if you plug a sound card in it I bet it would do a lot better in voice recognition / face recognition. Also a word about the architecure, ok it's a different one but the less exprienced ones usually code in python for theirs apps so I think that there will be no problem here. Anyway thanks for pointing out everythings thats wrong about a things that you JUST bought and not tested for much longer
Thank you for sharing your opinion. One scenario could have been to coordinate hardware with software and deliver the whole at a different moment (maybe end of summer). I did not see a pressing need to release the hardware now other than marketing.
@@AndreasSpiess The software is mostly open source and community driven. The only way to get the software up to speed is to release the hardware and let the community figure it out.
Could not some of the problem be fixed if you compile your own kernel from one of the most recent kernel releases? I would think that would be good for a real DIYer. And with the added throughput from the USB mass storage and extra cores, it should be relatively speedy to compile a kernel.
@@AndreasSpiess Virtually all of the Raspberry Pi Linux Distros use fairly old kernels. If you compiled, say, the most recent kernel version, version 5.1.15 and installed it, it will probably solve most of those issues, since many of them are driver based, like the lack of 4K support.
Yes, that is what I am looking for, something small to drive 2 displays at 1080p for monitoring systems to offload from my main system. After work I can switch SD cards and boot up Retropie once they get it ready on the 4 in several months or so.
I look for a tiny computer to connect a SAS/MiniSAS drive to. Anything that's not in the company-grade pricerange? Quite hard to find anything that comes with PCIe x4 to use a SAS-card.
if there was a survey taken what the pi is used for, I can assure you that one of the biggest would be retro gaming... is this going to up the ease of retro gaming , you bet it will.... so all those speed increases will be very welcome.... as for the dual monitor outputs... that I believe will be a huge deal for things like changeable marquees on arcade cabs and even simulated pinball backglasses... the pi has a much farther reach now, then just the SBC tinkering projects days... so no poo poo on the pi pi fella....
Thanks, Andreas! I was already leaning toward getting 3B+ boards for my next projects because of the power and heat differences, but the software issue (which no other review I've seen mentioned) is a deal-killer for me. Like you, I have burn scars from using early versions of new software, so I'll be "waiting for Christmas" to try the 4 ;-) The description says you get affiliate commissions on "your purchases the next 24 hours". I'm about to place another order with Banggood. Does that mean I need to use a different link to give you a cut?
Thank you for supporting the channel. You can use any link and then I should get the cut. And they say that this is the case for orders during the next day.
You can use USB 3 for Debian. I put noobs on 2GB SD and selected the plugged in USB 3 stick destination & full install used about 8GB of a 16GB just fine. Both left plugged in it's quick enough.
The RPF has said this will never happen in the RPi, because there is literally no room on the PCB which is already 6 layers thick with circuitry. Never going to happen.
It’s just a software issue the RPi 4 is powerful for it’s size and money, it only needs some software optimization that’s all I purchased a 4g version to use as a desktop replacement for common tasks like browsing the internet doing some libre office Work watching movies and from what I saw on review and forum it can handle my needs if you want to use it for more advanced stuff you better get a lattepanda or something from this caliber
Cost of adding RTC according to RPF: About $10 Percentage of Community Needing RTC: 10% or less Room on PCB for RTC: Less than 2% open Never going to happen on the B model. Stop hoping.
Tinker Board looked very good until RPi4B came out ! In this price range, even with the extra cost of 4GB of memory, I don't think anything can beat it !
Nothing with support as good as the pi. The 4 may not be perfect yet, but you can be damned sure that it will be better more quickly than any other board out there.
The limitations of Raspian Buster vs Stretch is purely a firmware issue. Are there any hardware limitations with the RPi 4B 4GB now that would make waiting to buy now? My plan is to buy now from Adafruit for $55, install Ubuntu or Debian, develop apps, and benchmark performance. I can always change Distros later, add features like booting from a USB SSD later. Your thoughts?
I think there are two problems. One I Buster without support of many software packages. The other is drivers for the new hardware. Your strategy will maybe change #1, if the other distressed run on RPI4, but maybe not #2. And the boot issue seems not related to Buster, either.
Question: can you get full throughput on both of the USB 3.0 ports at the same time? If I had 2 SATA to USB 3.0 SSD's. Can I transfer files on both drives and expect to get the full throughput?
This video makes several significant mistakes and significantly factual omissions. 1. Chromium has the GPU intentionally DISABLED because of a bug. So you are literally playing a video entirely in software decoding, then marveling that performance is bad - I wonder why. The reason for this is that the new open-source OpenGLES Driver is enabled by default, but Chromium is using the old proprietary blob and can't talk OpenGLES. You say this will be fixed eventually, but this will actually be fixed in a few weeks from now, according to RPF. Stop saying it will be longer and a bigger deal than it is! 2. The Pi Foundation has a firmware update coming within a few days/weeks (after further testing) which, in independent testing, reduces temps by 3-5C on average and improves speeds. Turns out a power management system was disabled. 3. A full size HDMI connector would literally not fit. In fact, they couldn't fit miniHDMI connectors because they wouldn't fit. The board was about ~3-5mm too long during the design process up until the end because of routing difficulties. So, if you can't fit in ONE HDMI connector, why not fit two micros? 4. eMMC would not fit AT ALL in a B-size. You would need a new Model C to have ANY eMMC. The board could barely pack in all of the stuff it currently has! Plus, eMMC is expensive and less replaceable than SD cards are. eMMC will never be available on a Model B - there is literally no room on the PCB without causing interference. You can push the laws of physics only so far. 5. The SD Card Controller is doubled in speed in the Pi 4 thanks to a new SD controller system within the SoC. Plus, if you actually SHUT DOWN your Pi instead of unplugging it, and buy reputable SD cards, failure is rare. I have never had an SD card die on me in over 4 years of ownership of Pis. I pay about... $5 premium for quality. 6. Speaking of this, the Pi 4 finally has OpenGLES 3 AND a working Linux driver for it. All other Mali-based boards (saw someone begging for Mali and you liked that comment) are often missing Linux drivers, don't have OpenGLES 3, or are otherwise lacking software support and other features. Plus, VideoCore VI now gives many Mali boards a run for their money in performance.
Thank you for your insights. I just compared what is promised and what I got. As you do with all other products. In the early days of Raspberries where only makers bought it, maybe it was different. But now they position it as a desktop replacement which is no more only for makers. I would have expected they synchronize the HW with the SW releases. Just 3 month would have changed a lot and would have given the SW guys a bit time. And it was no need to rush with the HW in my opinion.
@@AndreasSpiess That might be true. It did arrive a little early, and they said that the RPF development process is "we pick a date - several months from now - and then we just keep working until that date and unless there's something insanely broken, we ship." Looks like they shipped a little less far-along than I and we would have liked.
At 8:22 you pointed out to use a USB drive for booting. I've been using a Intenso micro 64GB about a year ago, and it broke even faster then the SD cards I used before that.
The more clicks a video gets the more thumb down it also gets. I assume that some people were attracted by the thumbnail and clicked, but did not like the content.
@@AndreasSpiess Yes. It is good enough. If the PI4 can boot from USB. SD cards are not build for all then read and write cycles. And the PI4 gets super hot, compared to the PI3.
I would only need 4K from my PC. I am more interested in running the dual video in 1080p with 60Hz refresh as a secondary machine to drive my extra displays for monitoring systems and switching over to RetroPie after work. I know RetroPie isn't ready for the Pi 4 yet, but it won't be all that long.
A good application for the Pi: Work and leisure. I hope it will not get export restrictions because it is now a "dual-use" device as it is the case with many products in other areas ;-)
The Buster release is already downloadable on the raspberry pi website. I have had it downloaded for several days. I am UK based, but surely you can still download from the official site?
The one thing I would really though you would be hitting was the power consumption ... 3A+ --- even more depending on the attachments to the USB ports ... Not something makers are happy with .. This is a big hit for applications that require for example remote deployment ... that is solar panels/Wind power ... Now the bigger memory is a Huge improvement, but that comes at a price ... bad but unavoidable. But I truly understand why the RPi team went along with faster ethernet, faster USB, and faster CPU ... also the new SoC is made on 28nm, not 40nm ... that made it possible for the RPi4 to stay at 3A minimum and not 4-5+ if it was a 40nm chip ... Even like so the Thermals are according to your video not that great ... though 65C is in any case an acceptable temperature for the chip specs. Also the room temp would be an important parameter since right now All Europe in under 40C+ (100F+) :) ... those 65C could actually be a very very good result Andreas :)
I was ordering it when i saw your vidéo. I’m working on a project with node red and a database and i need some ram. But today i’m not sur that a pi is the best solution. And the excessive température is also a big problem. (Sorry for all mistakes but i’m french with an Apple corrector 😄)
Thanks for the commentary ! I too, was disappointed in the lack of eMMC. I am wondering if they are waiting for microSD Express to see if it will really "catch on" ! I am disappointed in your video test at 1080P ! Is the bottleneck lack of RAM ? For people with "deep pockets" can an 8GB RPi be far behind ? Nobody wants a fan, but either a large heat sink and/or a fan looks like a requirement.
I wonder what is the improvements on the SD card controller. Recently stumbled upon SanDisk Industrial microSD card which actually has a better theoretical read/write speed than then consumer part. The only competing consumer solution is probably SanDisk Nintendo Switch SD card since it is advertised to have read/write close to 100MB/s. Regular consumer SanDisk microSD (Ultra series) only advertised theoretical read of 90MB/s but back of the packaging actually state 10MB/s of write. For the eMMC version you better wait for compute module 4. not going to see it really quick soon unless industrial demands them faster than RPi Foundation assume
Endlich sagt mal jemand, dass die Änderungen für Makers nix bringen. NAS ist sicherlich einer der wenigen Anwendungsfälle. (Sorry for the German comment) Keep up the great work!
This statement did not mean the hardware, it meant the Buster release. The hardware is a big improvement, as I clearly showed. When the software will be ready ;-)
@@AndreasSpiess Edit: just re-checked site says Pi4 has this disabled, the website says Pi3 and under www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/configuration/config-txt/codeclicence.md
Dual Hdmi and PoE requirements came from the advertising display markets. The buy huge numbers of Pis.
Digital Signage, now I get it! I've been asking myself the same like Andreas "what the heck is the use of a second HDMI port"?!
A second port is also useful when you use the Pi to monitor multiple camera streams, i.e. home security.
How far can one place the display from the RPi?
@@deltasigyt Depends on the cable and the resolution, rule of thumb is less than 10m usually. At 4k it might be significantly less.
poe was in rpi3 too. but you are better off with a splitter.
A VERY large usage of Pis is for advertising screens, being able to drive two is a real positive!
Stats or gtfo.
@@lmaoroflcopter No stats but I have 10 displaying business KPIs (just like advertising) and stuff and 30 on the shop floor as production terminal web clients
You are using piss for advertising ?
Advertising screens are migrating to Android boxes. Much nicer gui toolkits, proper video support, and the software can run on multiple vendors devices with little to no modifications. I do miss the simplicity of just replacing a card to fix whatever is wrong with the device, but emmc storage is more reliable and vendors are now supporting removable emmc
@@nelsonoliveira5374 I was evaluated digital signage two years ago and went with easescreen and Intel UHD 620 Integrated Graphics. What is the preferred choice these days?
"Typical feature of us Engineers. We have a solution. Where the hell is the problem that we can solve with it ?! "
😂😂
No, you have to design the hardware and the software can follow. They probably already have the new OS in beta with the fixes being tested.
@aR Remo: Can you imagine this behavior with other products? Raspberry became quite mainstream these days (if you see which channels are covering it, e.g.).
No, Eben Upton said the dual output was the result of a request from one of the major thin-client companies, I can't recall which possibly Citrix. The 1GB version makes an outstanding thin client with dual 4k displays.
What everybody seems to be forgetting that is that the RPi is meant to be a good modular base that enables people to explore in as many directions as possible. Just because you cannot personally see the value in a design choice does not mean it does not have value.
And when it comes to releasing products that will need further updates, are you serious? Firstly this is the first Pi that can actually receive firmware updates, and they have already confirmed some now the product has been released they have more resources available to improve the firmware (there is one being tested with better heat management right now). And secondly, I don't know of a single PC manufacturer that releases it's product to market and not once releases a BIOS update ever again. That's just insane.
I get people love the first generation of RPi's and got used to their behavior, but to expect these types of performance increase without heat generation (look at any other competing SBC and seehow much heat they produce) is just silly, especially for £35!
@@AndreasSpiess you boot the Raspberry Pi 4 on micro SD card, but then switch over to USB 3.0
@@AndyNicholson Vendors that have a clear goal in mind and do proper testing don't need to issue post-release firmware updates. Actually having the possibility of firmware updates should not be seen as a positive. I rather they be forced to recall millions of devices if they are so stupid as to release faulty hardware. It used to be this way in the old days and people created better products. These days the marketplace is flooded with low quality garbage where you have to wait months until all issues are fixed.
One small addition:The RPi3B+ already had Gigabit Ethernet. But was attached to the USB controller, limiting it's speed to about 300MBit. Now, with the RPi 4 it's directly attached and runs at (almost) full speed.
Exactly! Even Andreas can be wrong sometimes :)
The numbers in table mean 332 -> 933 Mbps improvement and not ~100 -> 933
*its speed (possessive)
it's = contraction of "it is/has"
@Matthias: You are right. I mixed it with the 3B. My mistake! I apologize.
Thr reason why the RAM is faster is because it's DDR4 not because it's more (bit confusing in the video).
This is also very beneficial for GPU performance since it shares the memory.
But why is video playback at 1080P stuttering ?
@@jackpatteeuw9244 Because of Raspbian, you need a specialized distro for media consumption. My original RPi is perfectly capable of playing 1080p 30fps in OpenELEC.
@@jackpatteeuw9244 Lack of optimisation of drivers for hardware acceleration.
@@jackpatteeuw9244 because its going to be a while before the drivers are fixed. Honestly the same as the other compatibility problems he mentioned. So no surprise really.
@@arrobamarcos which rpi do ýou have?
Flowers for your partner has a much greater ROI than a Pi 4. Especially that night.
Joke's on you. None of us has a partner...
I'd prefer a Raspberry Pi 4 to flowers, unless, of course, I could return/sell the flowers and use that money to buy a Raspberry Pi.
Agree. I like Andreas' honest review of the RPI and cut through the hype. My wife (and I) will definitely benefit from the flowers. :-)
Percentage of raspberry PI owners with a partner 30%?
@@Jimmy_Jones I guess, put me in the 30%. I also have about 8 RPis, so take that however you'd like.
Thank you for being the first and only youtuber talking about the application compatibility! Going to wait a while before getting one myself
You are welcome!
An episode that saves me money...Yay!
Very rare on this channel ;-)
This video is super incorrect with various misinterpretations and flat out false information
@@VxVTactics May you please give us some examples?
in iot applications, the pi is commonly used as a data collector, not a sensor. mysql and apache are greatly improved on this version.
You are right. I did not check if their versions already run.
The rpi 3b+ already has gigabit. But it's connected with usb 2.0 that's why it cannot do more than 300Mbps. The rpi 3b was 100Mbps. That's why there's a x10 improvement over rpi 3b but only 3x over rpi 3b+
You are right! Thank you. My mistake. I mixed it up with the RPI 3b.
@@AndreasSpiess so finally you are only a human being? Thx for the video. BTW I ordered from the same shop. I registered to receive an email when more is available and I jumped on 2 rpi 4 4gb Friday after receiving a notification.
YUp . but event he Gbps is not capable of more then 300Mbps ... in any case I think the Gb interface is over kill, but I truly understand the option to include a full Gb ethernet interface ... competition...competition ... :)
@@John_Smith__ no on rpi 4 the gibabit can actually do 933 Mbps. That a pretty decent performance 933 when theorical maximum is 1000... the bottleneck was that the network chip was on usb 2 on rpi3b+. Now it's on usb 3. Edit: in fact it's integrated in the SOC: "The Ethernet controller on the main SoC is connected to an external Broadcom PHY over a dedicated RGMII link, providing full throughput. USB is provided via an external VLI controller, connected over a single PCI Express Gen 2 lane, and providing a total of 4Gbps of bandwidth, shared between the four ports."
@@cmuller1441 I know, I was mentioning the 300Mbps on the RPi3B+ ... it's only a 300Mpbs since it is run on a USB 2.0 chip ... well it's better then 100Mbps ... but not yet comparable with 933Mbps (on USB3) on the RPi4 ...
Again I fully understand the option but it comes at a price of pushing more Amps ... even like that the 28nm SoC is a very good thing. I think we all wanted them to have a "Uber Chip" made on 7nm :) and using less power but that will not come anytime soon, specially not at the 35$US price tag ... :(
I would prefer a standard HDMI connector.
I think everyone would. But 2x of them...we are starting to run out of room, unless they stack them.
Stacking would be preferable, I think. There's not much, if any, cost difference between two micro-HDMI and a stack.
www.aliexpress.com/item/19pins-HDMI-Connector-SMT-Double-HDMI-Stacked-Thru-Hole-type-Sockets-HDMI-Female-Jack-Connectors-Socket/32821896074.html
Maybe on the RPi 4B+. :)
@@jimb032 I meant just 1 HDMI, I don't need dual video, I would rather have the specs be focused to 1 screen rather than 2. As a separate model, but with the same specs.
@@macemoneta The RPF has confirmed that a stacking connector was not only too large for the PCB, but it put an incredible bending moment (an engineering term) on the PCB - enough to potentially snap the board when in a case and plugging into the top port.
@@gabriels5885 Thank you, somebody here is using logic and reason when talking about this board, I genuinely do not understand why people are hating on it so much. The RPiF didn't just decide on a whim to make this the way they did, there was thought and process behind every single detail.
All my RPis run headless, and they've gifted me another HDMI... thank you very much! LOL
Maybe the CPU cores will then be able to use all that improved memory bandwidth that's available, since it's not having to feed images out to HDMI displays! One can hope.
Good point. My RPis also mostly work headless. But you still will experience the increased speed for some applications.
A 10 Gbit ethernet would have been better for streaming videos or data instead of the extra HDMI port. I don't have that many monitors anyway.
TechWizPC that’s faster connection than my Threadripper workstation platform... it has a 2 gigabit port and a single gigabit port. You would have to use an external networking card (I’m already using most of the PCIe lanes, I run 4x GPU and I’ll soon have NVME raid for storage). I imagine the 10 gigabit port costs the whole price of the pi!
In this case, why don't you buy Odroid HC1 instead :/
They removed all unnessary parts for this purpose, including the HDMI and adding fast Ethernet + SATA :))
Shiny surfaces like on the USB-connectors does not give accurate readings on a thermal camera due to different emissivity than a perfect black body.
It is the power of pictures that let people forget about what it is physically reading.
Right, looks like cpu is colder than the board
I can assure you I tested with my own skin. And I nearly burned it (not on the USB connectors, though).
Even Kirchhoff's law is dubious: watch?v=YQnTPRDT03U
Another uninformed statement - and downplaying it with half truths in the comments. I cannot trust this vid anymore.
This, very technical, video has lot of technical errors.
For example in video RPi3 network is referred as 100 Mbps (wrong) and yet the benchmark table shows 332 Mbps (right).
Benchmark table shows CPU speed regression (definitively wrong), while video calls it 20% improvement (wrong again). For one the table columns are switched. And even then, that cpu benchmark is absurd. It is a very simple number cruncher. And all it measured was linear scaling of performance with cpu frequency increase from 1.2 GHz to 1.5 GHz. In real life A72 in RPi4 is *much* stronger than A53 from RPi3.
Yeah, this is one of the worst videos I've seen on RPi4. Very misleading, full of errors, poorly researched.
Thank you for your corrections.
Can you recommend a video by an expert?
The new Raspberry does not support hardware based decoding of Googles VP9 codec and thus the performance on UA-cam ist not great and most likely never will be. You can see the supported codecs at 5:20 .
VLC player just needs further work to run smoothly, especially for hardware decoding when playing a supported video.
I hope they know what they are doing and have it running in the lab ;-)
The user community does not have unfettered access to its GPU functionality.
This is the biggest hangup for the rPi platform to me ... things like Cinnamon and UA-cam work poorly without hardware acceleration, making the desktop experience disappointing. Well, at least we can get 4 gig now.
Have heard that there is support for VLC now, but not tried yet.
I had come to the same conclusions regarding the Pi 4 but I am still grateful for your well reasoned "contrarian" review. One minor disagreement with you is the switch to USB C power. Most makers would have been happier with a coaxial barrel connector. I've had power issues with all of the Pi's from the very beginning, I usually power through the GPIO header but have accidently destroyed more than one Pi .
+1 for a 5.5mm barrel connector. Of course the adapters from c to 5.5 will come if not already here.
@@jimb032 It looks like several of them are on AliExpress. Inexpensive but not easy to find using their search. Try adapter USB type "C" to 5.5mm
I share your preference for coaxial connectors: the micro-USB power connector is probably my biggest complaint about the Pi. I can see how it might have seemed like a good idea at the beginning, since a lot of people (especially the students it was aimed at) have spare phone chargers. But it's a real nuisance when you're trying to build something compact.
I think the reason they've stuck with it is probably one that came up in the discussion about using micro HDMI: lack of board space. A 5.5 jack would take up twice as much space as the SMD micro USB.
I found some "bare" micro B connectors on ebay a few months ago. They only protrude about 1cm, so I'm going to try them for projects that need to fit in compact enclosures. The description was "uxcell 15pcs Micro USB B Type 5 Pins Male Jack Socket Solder Silver Tone" if you want to search for it. Annoyingly, the seller has gone from USD8 for a pack of 15 with free shipping to adding a USD9.99 shipping charge, so you might want to look for another supplier.
This is the Raspberry Pi 4 review I was looking for. Thanks!
You are welcome!
I totally agree.
Watched too many reviews. But none of those even test 4k and 1080p video. I requested, and some genius said that 4k IS supported by the spec, that I'm ignorance for asking 😂
@@CNCH_HungNC 4K video works, but not with Raspbian (yet). OpenELEC alpha 9.2 supports h.265 (HEVC) 4K decoding. The hardware is amazing, but the software guys are still a bit behind. Just take a deep breath and wait a bit.
First of all this guy assumes that the software will not improve in a short time. Get the 4GB version and have fun with it! Don't worry about the software issues, they will be fixed before you know it!
At 4:38 and forward you say that the RPi 4 supports gigabit ethernet instead of the "ancient 100Mbit one" and "the potential speed increase of 10 times ends in a factor of three"; but that's quite wrong, and you make it sound like the RPi4 doesn't achieve the full potential here, when it actually does!
Gigabit was introduced with the RPi3B+, but because the ethernet chip was connected via USB2, the throughput was limited to about 330Mbps, as you can also see in the chart; so the RPi3B+ had the "potential speed increase of 10x" and failed to achieve it.
With the improved USB3 support on the RPi4, that bottleneck is gone, and the RPi4 increases the throughput all the way up to 933Mbps, i.e, close to the full theoretical max throughput of gigabit ethernet. So the RPi4 does in fact achieve the full 10x increase over 100MBps ethernet such as was available on the RPi3; and you seem to have missed the RPi3B+'s "gigabit bit with only 1/3 the throughput" support in between - even though you could see that the throughput of the 3B+ was clearly well above what 100Mbps ethernet could ever achieve.
Not usb3: "The Ethernet controller on the main SoC is connected to an external Broadcom PHY over a dedicated RGMII link, providing full throughput." Cit. Raspberry Pi website. ETH has dedicated link.
@@SilvioDidonna Meaning that even if Ethernet uses 1Gbps, there is 5Gbps separate for the USB 3 ports?
@@agneevX on the raspberry pi site: "USB is provided via an external VLI controller, connected over a single PCI Express Gen 2 lane, and providing a total of 4Gbps of bandwidth, shared between the four ports."
You are right. I made a mistake and mixed it with the 3B. I apologize.
Hey Andreas, great vid as per usual. Have you tried using the h264ify extension on chrome? It “makes UA-cam stream H.264 videos instead of VP8/VP9 videos”, and might allow the hardware acceleration to kick in.
It does.
@1pnoe: No, I just used what I got from the foundation and compared it with the promises in the leaflet.
"Mission critical", OpenMediaVault and rPi?!
I guess we have quite differing views of "mission critical".
Well it might not be the same as controlling a hybrid missile in the stratosphere but your data are in potential danger.
Mora Fermi: True
I don't know. It could be said mission critical in some case. I have Nas myself, but because of it's fairly low usage and power consumption I transfered into NUC with omv and I back that up to Nas occasionally. That of course doesn't mean that I would like my NUC to have problems between backups. I could think using Rpi and omv with same idea and I would like it to be "semi" mission critical reliability wise
Maybe we have different "missions" in mind?
@@AndreasSpiess Involuntary muscle spasm. Couldn't be helped. d;o)
ua-cam.com/video/AvBVGsd4Lzc/v-deo.html
Wunderbar! Thank you, Andreas.
Your slightly more technical/skeptical approach is appreciated.
:-)
Any idea about the gpio stuff? Many of the potentially faster rpi competitors had problems with spi and i2c support. How is the rpi4?
So far I never used SPI or I2C on the raspberry. So I have no experience.
According to www.tomshardware.com/reviews/raspberry-pi-4-b,6193.html
"GPIO pins now support four additional I2C, SPI and UART connections."
Also there was a bug about "I2C clock stretching" on previous versions which I saw a comment about, saying it was fixed in the Pi4.
Thx for the heads up... I was rushing but didn't get my order in so am now waiting for reviews like yours!
You are welcome!
I basically only use RPI for Retro gaming, my RPI 3B+ has a 128 GB micro SD plugged into it which has much more space for games than it can really use, so I'm not bothered by micro SD cards in the PI.
My rule for new devices is simple, watch the new release, have fun watching all the early adopters freak out over lack of support for their favorite programs and bugs that need squishing. Then, after six months to a year later, the shiny new device I wanted has been debugged and all the programs I love to use have been updated to work on it, I go out and buy it, I seem to have fewer headaches going this route.
But seriously, until RetroPie has been updated to work with RPI 4B for at least a few months I can wait to get my hands on this, I might even a bit longer wait for a B+ version.
I would have preferred a single larger HDMI (I would have stacked 2 full HDMI ports, not a fan of micros) instead of the micros but oh well, they went that route, at least I will have a spare HDMI port in case the first one dies.
The upgrades to USB 3 and 4GB Ram are welcome additions that should help my retro gaming machine run smoothly.
So I think we agree in most parts. The only difference: As a UA-camr I do not have time for RetroPi :-(
It would be nice if the new version of Retropie somehow used the dual screen support. Maybe local multiplayer with GBA or Game Gear. I know one of the Gameboy emulators literally do this by putting two displays up on the same screen but it only works for certain games and can be glitchy as hell.
What is the problem with SD card usage? I am running RPi with an SD as Octoprint and printserver for few years no problem. You do 4 changes to raspbian and make it boot read only, remounting to read/write during system updates. Works no problem. And with 4GB of RAM as a ramdisk will be perfect...
Running something like HomeAssistant with activity logging to "disk" can wear out MicroSD cards. Of course, in the unusual cases where it can work as read-only, it can run just fine.
@@JohnnieHougaardNielsen If I need extensive logging, I am sending it to networked BananaPi with SSD drive in SATA or just mount nfs share out of the same ;)
@@JohnnieHougaardNielsen it sounds like the design spec for the solution was poorly done.
@@jwcolby54 - Lots of DIY usage of electronic/digital things happens without boring details like design specifications. And even for people already knowing of SD card longevity limitations, a Pi better suited for a broad range of small server use cases could be a welcome improvement. For me, considerations about SD card wear was a reason to instead use a NUC-like computer with SSD as smarthome server, including logging of MQTT readings of climate data and power usage.
@@JohnnieHougaardNielsen lol. I was being facetious. Of course not everyone understands the limitations. That said, the pi is what it is. You are responsible for using it within it's limitations.
I can use a quarter ton pickup to haul a ton and complain about broken shocks or I can use a different solution. Just sayin.
I agree, no eMMC is the biggest disappointment for those of us that use the Pi in an embedded design! Tired of depending on the SD Card.
An option would have been enough for me.
Wait for the compute module version.
You can boot from a hard drive.
The board was about ~5mm too large up until the last month of design and is six layers thick of circuitry, and they used microHDMI because there was no room for even one standard HDMI left. Now where, do you think, would they fit the eMMC?
@@AndreasSpiess The RPF has said this repeatedly this will NEVER happen in the RPi Model B, because there is literally NO room on the PCB which is already 6 layers thick with circuitry without causing significant interference with all of the other parts. The board was actually ~5mm too thick because of all the wires until the last stage of design due to wiring difficulties. They couldn't fit even one standard-size HDMI because of lack of room. And now, you want eMMC? You can stop wishing.
Hi Andreas, wondering would you do a video on Jetson Nano?
Maybe. Not decided yet
I'm not convinced that RPi4 is suitable for AI. Most AI applications are video recognition, and I don't think video decoding and NN execution on CPU is the best choice. It's much better to offload such computations to GPU. A much better choice for AI this would be nvidia jetson nano.
I have one big concern about RPi4 - heat. It looks like this board can get much hotter than previous versions. A competition like NanoPi M4 has SOC on bottom of PCB, so you are able to add big heatsink in the bottom to have passive and efficient cooling. In RPi4 they suggest having still the small heatsinks? This will result in throttling CPU and slow down. I'm disappointed they didn't address that issue.
I agree that the Pi4 will be anemic for AI, but having the USB3 connection should benefit external AI accelerators like the Movidius.
MFBcode training a NN is best done on a gpu, but a CPU can frequently be used for object identification. There's a ton of resources for doing CV processes on a pi.
This whole case acts as a large heatsink: flirc.tv/more/raspberry-pi-4-case
As Daniel points out: Training models and executing them are not equally power hungry. Many RPi applications seem to use trained models and only execute them. But I am by no means an AI specialist...
@@googacct yes, if support will be good this can be a very promising solution
Good video. I saw people saying you could use this as your main desktop, but when youtube is so choppy (mine is too, a 2GB version) then it isn't really usable. I feel like the port changes are a bit strange, firstly flipping the ethernet and USB... was there some unfixable PCB routing problem? Second the HDMI - I can't imagine many people needing dual HDMI (if you wanted 2 screens for a custom solution there was the DSI display connector), single full size HDMI was easy to work with and didn't require me to buy micro HDMI cables. The upgrade to the speed of USB and ethernet is very welcome though, I expect there will be a lot used for NAS.
Darren Tarbard Having dual HDMI is useful for monitoring multiple camera feeds if you use the Pi as a home security device for instance. And apparently the advertising sector uses RPi’s a lot. And I’m sure there are more creative uses of two monitor connections. Also, let’s not forget that HDMI includes audio and connects to many monitors that people might still have lying around, whereas the DSI display connector is just video and has a flat cable connector that scares most people away from using it (not everybody is a maker).
There were quite a few voices which mentioned advertising and retro gaming as candidates for dual HDMI
@@AndreasSpiess Interesting to know - the Pi has found uses in so many arenas.
There are a lot of applications where processor speed is less important than being able to have reasonable amounts of ram. I'd love to find a single board computer with a couple of last gen ram slots (cost over performance) so 32+ gigs of ram could be added. A couple USB ports and a gig ether ethernet port, add a single micro pcie slot or expresscard slot (max is 4 lanes?) And then just let the end user make the machine into whatever they need.
Maybe for these requirements you are better off with a small form factor PC board?
@@AndreasSpiess lol.. Ya think?
Well said, I have noticed that the CPU gets hot very quick and thats in what I would call idle mode - just the desktop displayed. I was actually thinking of using a heatsink and thermal paste on it. The increased PSU current demand with differing USB type C connector, new HDMI cable requirement do make this a more costly solution. I wonder how many channels with glowing reviews got a free sample unlike myself who bought my own one.
I bought mine too ;-)
Thnx. I almost spent 60$ ... As you mentioned, maybe in the future. Although I believe it will not be much cheaper.
Go ahead and spend the $60. you can't find a cheaper machine, unless you get the 1gb version.
It's not a waste of money, really. You just can't use the features to the full extent until the software catches up. You'll be happy with it, but it won't be tomorrow...
*Though (different meaning and pronunciation)
@vedran: I agree with the others, the 60 $ are a good spend, just not now if you do not desperately need it.
@@AndreasSpiess IMHO actually it's not what the initial need and the idea was. I would rather turn to Omega2 from onion.io or rpi zero. This actually is bit overpriced for those small applications that i had in my mind for single board computer. But, ok, more resources, and popular platform on which you can count that it will exist in next 4-5 years is great.
Hi Andreas
I don't know where to ask, but in a mailbag some time ago you got some 18650 battery holders that probably could take more amps because of the larger flat welder joint, instead ofthe small pin joint of some else battery holders you had.
Have you been testing those, and how where the tests?
Best greetings from Denmark :)
I run dual monitors on my desk so two HDMI ports are useful and the raspberry pi 3 b+ had gigabit Ethernet but it ran through the USB 2.0 bus.
Concerning Ethernet: You are right. I made a mistake.
@@AndreasSpiess well I don't think you're that wrong. Just as mentioned cause of usb2 bus the speeds aren't nowhere near gigabit as you might initially though. New one has "straight" connection and should actually be close to gigabit connection
what about MachineLearning projects?
I hope I will find the time to investigate that topic.
I use both a Pi 3B and 3B+ as desktops already, the 3B+ has a 128gig ssd hat and is perfectly usable for media, email and browsing, the Pi 4, I expect will be as good a desktop experience as many branded windows pc's. Upgrades and Version compatibilities are issues with all software.
If you are ok with the 3B+ as a desktop device you will love the 4. After the software issues are solved.
I don't understand why they did not put the ability to boot from serial bus, code can be found everywhere for that. In 1999 I used to have a bootable iso disc that would override bios and allow you to boot from anything even if the main board did not support it. Something strange happened over 20 year span, code is lost to archives and everyone seems to forget how.
What is the best SBC for now that has gigabit and usb 3? Maybe chromebook? Seem to be same price but with screen, keyboard, sata, and usb 3.0... Hmmmm...
I am no SBC specialist and only use Raspberries because the ecosystem is very good. That is what counts most for me
I would add the missing 64-bit kernel support (maybe as well 64-bit user level support) booth could unlock more performance out of the Cortex-A72 CPU. The A72 includes NEON SIMD (MPE - Media Processing Engine), this will give another boost once they are on 64-bit.
So lets wait for 6 month or so until the firmware and software is utilizing the new PI 4 hardware.
Great video, this is mostly what I have been interested about the new PI-4 versus the non relevant promotions by many others.
Are libraries to use NEON SIMD instructions commonly available on other ARM distributions ?
@@jackpatteeuw9244 I believe the gcc, clang and ARM C/C++ compilers handle this.
@@jackpatteeuw9244 The LLVM (clang) Compiler supports it. It is up to the developers to use it, once the Linux is in 64-bit mode.
@Helmut: The 64-bit transformation on Windows was a big pain if I remember right. And I would rather stick with 32 bit here if this is the case too. It seems that Linux does not have an issue with the 4GB memory border as Windows had.
@@AndreasSpiess Sure the transition is not easy, that’s why it is still on 32-bit which keeps the backward compatibility. However nowadays even Smartphones are 64-bit, the Pi4 deserves it too.
I will wait for the RP4+ model as the community will fully support the RP4 line by then.
Thanks for saving me my money. I have (almost) a museum of pi's and other SBCs.
They are not at display here. But in a large box ;-)
Loved this in-depth look at the RPi4! I'm new to the raspberry pi scene and would love to tryout the enviro(+) as my first project. The rpi 4 came out with an 8gb version now. Should I invest in that one or stick with a smaller memory like the 2 or 4gb?
I do not see a need bigger than 4G. Mostly 2G is ok, but if you only buy one it is probably better to go for a 4GB one. Just in case...
The biggest advantage I see for the increased ram is being able to run more containers at once. I just hope that they bring docker-compose support!
The other thing that you can then do is run more powerful Edge devices or a fully fledged Scada servers like Ignition
+1000000!!!! Exactly what I was thinking. This thing will make home automation a lot easier if nothing else.
There is a docker-adapted kernel for RPi. It's called hypriot. It works well with RPi
@@mykolazamkovoi7722 thanks, will definitely have a look at hypriot kernel. So far I've had no issues running containers on my 3B with stock raspbian however my ZeroW doesn't want to run, tbh I didn't spend much time trying to get it working
For those of you interested I setup a github repo with a docker compose stack for the grafana/nodered/influxdb video (ua-cam.com/video/JdV4x925au0/v-deo.html) github.com/gcgarner/raspIOTstackd
Thank you! Having USB 2 and USB 3 side by side, and then also having 2x HDMI ports, one of which is better than the other one? It's all very unintuitive for the end users. We know the difference of course, but end users can get confused easily. Plug things in to the wrong ports, etc. This in addition to needing an active cooling solution is a very large and unfortunate liability for long term deployments.
My PCs also have USB2 and USB3 ports. So this is not a big issue. But I do not like the micro HDMI ports as well.
I'm looking forward to using the Pi 4 to consolidate some systems now the USB and Ethernet are faster. I will definitely be adding an active cooling system. Thanks for sharing your observations with the new Pi 4! I like the realistic perspective.
It will become a good board after the SW issues will be ironed out and I also will replace my hub system with one of those.
It will become a good board. Early adoption is not fun for most people.
Hello
thanks for sharing data
do you have any idea about the maximum acceleration this device can tolerate?
No idea:.(
Does anybody else have to play his videos on 1.25 speed to not die from old age? :D
We all will die from old age, if we are lucky and are not killed before ;-)
@@AndreasSpiess lol
Andreas, can you please test the network adapter performance (iperf) while putting some heavy load on USB controller? There was a bottleneck on older Pi's since LAN used same USB controller as ports.
This bottleneck should be gone with the 4. I think you will find plenty of Pi4 benchmarks on other channels. It is not my specialty :-(
Thanks Andreas for putting a critical review of the Raspberry Pi into the endless stream of "hooray" videos.
A few comments:
- In my experience the RPi Foundation increase the price of older models when a new one comes out, and I expect them to do the same this time, at least when the RPi 4's are generally available (ie not sold out)
- Maybe you are a bit harsh about the Debian buster part. There will always be a chicken-and-egg issue between new hardware features (that we makers crave), and stable software support for those features.
But all in all: Thumbs up for the critical review and warnings about what you don't get (yet).
You can say I was too harsh. In my opinion, there was no need for the release now. And in a few month, the main software parts would have been ready. If you watch all the channels covering RPi, they are now mainstream. And with this comes some responsibility, I think. But I have to admit: This video also was an experiment for me. Many said that bad news sell and I did not want to believe. Now I know that it is true :-(
Hi Andreas
I'm pretty sure you've been talking about an isolated USB to serial converter in on of your video. But I can't find it out !
I guess the main subject of that video wasn't that converter. But what video was it ?
Something like this? s.click.aliexpress.com/e/JJZItuU
@@AndreasSpiess I don't think it was the device you were using in the video I'm thinking about, but I'm not sure as I was not concerned at that time.
It was maybe more something like this one :
www.ebay.fr/itm/FT232-Isolate-USB-to-TTL-USART-USB-Isolated-Serial-Converter-Module-3-3V-5V/113325314089?hash=item1a62b71029:g:jeQAAOSwszVbzrNG
Don't you remember the video it was ? I think you said it was opto-isolated.
I would need to watch the video again.
You are right. the one I used also provided isolated 5V. They use all the same chip for USB isolation.
Excellent
The best review yet.
I’m staying with my 3B+ for now.
Bought 3 more for my uses. Works well. Just enough for my Plex Server just to stream my iTunes. Music. Low power. Perfect for music. Also I hate redoing my programming for my other applications
Are you sue that you used HW acceleration when you played videos? I have only tried the second gen rpi, and video worked great on that unit. It's been a while so I don't remember which resolution it provided, but playback was smooth.
I just used the normal Raspbian distribution. So I do not know.
You are skipping the fact that memory BANDWIDTH has increased 110% and that makes a big difference on the desktop. I find the latest Raspbian on my RPi4/2G a *LOT* more responsive compared to the 3B+ version. And I’m sure that with the further development of Buster and apps that will be recompiled for Buster will make it work even faster. It is FINE to browse the internet now on a RPi and I am surprised you find it difficult to see uses for dual HDMI, what happened to your creativity? I guess you just wanted to make your video stand-out from the other reviews that were released much earlier in the week? In any case, I was excited to see a new RPi that costs the same (1G) but now has true Gigabit Ethernet, USB3 and USB-C. Plus, some more gems are waiting as the software is further developed. That’s not vaporware Andreas, that’s called development.
Of course, the new Pi has a faster desktop. But how fast is it compared with a normal Laptop? That is what people compare if you announce a desktop version. At least this is my opinion. And this is what I did.
Concerning the other topics: I agree. But it is still good to know what works now and what later. This is part of this channel. Test and inform people.
@@AndreasSpiess Compare it to a normal laptop that costs many hundreds of euros? Actually, I own a Chuwi 12.3" Lapbook that has an Intel Sandy Bridge CPU running at 1.2GHz (boost 2GHz) with eMMC (and an M.2 SSD that I built-in and boot from) and Windows 10 and I can assure you it is *less* useable as a desktop computer then the RPi, especially when there are Windows updates (of which there are many). After first boot the CPU 100% for many minutes at a time during which it is non-responsive to whatever it is I want to do. Playing UA-cam videos can only be done at 720P. And that was a 250+ euro device. Give me the RPi 4 over that any day :). Yes, the Chuwi came in a case and had a screen but it's still more expensive then the 110 euro (?) desktop kit from Raspberry.
Point is, it is good to compare and inform but also to make sure people compare oranges with oranges. The Raspberry Pi foundation should do the same, I grant you that.
And the other items are also important but introducing the video by saying it's gonna be a bumpy ride and calling things vaporware is programming people to dislike it in advance. I got the impression you had a bad day or something like that. Maybe you should have gone for the flowers instead of the RPi 4 that day :).
Thanks for your reply.
How does Pi 4B perform with e.g. Sense HAT or TV HAT? Does it overheat then?
I'm glad that you think you're somehow setting people straight, but being a skeptic is not necessarily being more intelligent than the other guy. Everybody knows that Pi's get hot. The idea that the new one, running at faster speeds would get hotter... well, it's not an excuse not to buy it. Waiting for the price of the 3b+ to drop is always an option, but not realistic if you already have a pi3b+ and want more power. And I don't understand your problem with SD cards. I like SD cards, they're small, relatively inexpensive and once they're plugged in I usually forget about them. They've worked well for me in the past and I haven't had a problem and it allows me to switch between three operating systems or more such by switching out the SD card. The idea that I should switch to a USB dongle sticking out of my pi for the sake of a few extra read-write cycles is ridiculous. I don't particularly need two HD outputs, and I would've preferred one of normal size, but I suppose some people do. I don't know how you tested the HD, other than going to UA-cam and finding a random video, so I'm going to call BS on your HD test. I think it's completely inaccurate. I watched a similar test on Explaining Computers and I haven't found any reason to doubt Barnatt's findings, they usually coincide with what I find. (Basically, streaming video is not the same as HD or 4k playing from the computer itself. It requires much more cpu and memory to accomplish the same video quality) I could go on, but basically I disagree with your weak and one-sided assessment. thumbs down.
I also like Christopher’s videos. But maybe he used a different monitor. Here you see another voice concerning 4K. lifehacker.com/the-raspberry-pi-4s-most-interesting-quirks-1835871780 . Maybe I was telling BS, maybe not. You decide.
@@AndreasSpiess I didn't say it was the monitor. I said streaming video. I don't have a pi4, but I have a 3B+. Streaming video (youtube) only works at about 720pixels and plays more smoothly at 480. However, the same 3B+ can play full 1080p HD from storage SD cards, or, if you like, the USB sticks or external drive.
As you saw in the video I tried to play two 4k videos from two different Sony cameras on my attached SSD (for speed). One played in a small window and got black when I increased the window size. The other was black all the time. But my monitor was much bigger than Christopher's (which he showed in his recent channel update)
@@AndreasSpiess I don't have the pi4 to test myself, but for all I know, this could be a software problem. I still don't understand why your review is to tell people not to buy it. If you want everything to work perfectly out of the box, you shouldn't be buying a tinker-computer without a box or cooling system in the first place.
My pi shows solid red power led and no green flashing led. Any idea what's up? It's pi4
I never looked too much at those LEDs. So I do not know their function. Maybe somebody else knows?
Dual hdmi allows dual monitor support.
Oh Really?
@@cassio-eskelsen And if you used the onboard dsi ? Did you got 2 different output ?
How does it compare with its competitors? The desktop kit how does it compare with low end note books as you have to buy a monitor or screen? If Grandad wants a low powered computer to send emails, serf the web, buy online would he want one of these or a low powered note book which can be transported anywhere you want, where as the raspberry Pi is more of a fixture.
This is not a PC channel. So there will be no such benchmarks. But given the interest, I am sure you will find them soon in the net. This review was more dedicated to Makers.
This new Raspberry Pi may not be great for your needs, but it's great for many other people.
One of the main targets was always schools, and 4GB of RAM it's a lot better for that application, specially for the price.
In the old versions the USB was 2.0 and the Ethernet 10/100, but the main problem was that the bus was shared between these two, so 40MB/s max total. The new one is a GREAT low consumption seedbox for example.
To use as a mediacenter is always was a terrible option to use Raspbian, you need a dedicated distro for this matter. My original Raspberry Pi is perfectly capable of playing 1080p 30fps in OpenELEC with it's single core 700MHz CPU and 256MB (or 512MB I don't remember) of RAM, so I'm pretty sure this RPi is capeble of running 4K 30fps if set up correctly. The increase in network and USB speed also is important for this matter (streaming from your NAS or primary PC for example) .
This may not be a great update for makers, but it's a great update for everyone else.
Except school screens don't usually have mini HDMI connectors
@@DanielMurrayMakes That should not matter. If you are going to connect a monitor, you will need an hdmi cable no matter what. Wether you buy one with standard size hdmi on both ends or one standard and one micro hdmi end does not matter.
If you made it to my "one last thing" at hte end of the video, you have heard more or less the same thing ;-) This video just wanted to show the current status. Nothing more, and nothing less.
@@DanielMurrayMakes If the schools are going to buy the Pi 4, then adding $1 each for new cables or adapters is a non-issue.
@@lostname605 True but I was just saying it's another expense for schools that adds to the total cost without providing a significant advantage. We cannot reuse our current HDMI VGA adapters so have to buy new Mini HDMI adapters which are about 5-10 euro each. Look it's fine but it's just a strange move given that HDMI mini ports are still very much in the minority on TV screens, monitors and things that a child might have at home already in 2019 and I imagine still in 2022. With RPI 1-3's full size HDMI port most of my students have a HDMI cable at home for a TV or console that they can use. Now they all have to buy one more thing. It's not the end of the world! It's okay. It's just odd because it's now less compatible without an extra item to purchase for many kids with not a lot of money.
Of course it's not all things to all people; but for $55 (4GB model), the Pi-4 sure is a great start for someone like me who wants to do some robotics on the cheap. It is even programmable using FuzeBASIC for someone like me who grew up with BASIC and z-80 assembly on home computers in the 70s THANK YOU for a thoughtful video. All good wishes!
I am sure it will become a good SBC. If the software is ready.
If you leave out the sd card (having used it for bootstrapping,) it boots reliably off your usb (ssd) hd - no fuseable link required. Running headless, I'm surprised how well it runs - runs faster than a cut cat!
Thanks, did you manage it with an Raspi 4? How?
I used the feature in RPI3 plus with a USB stick. Without any changes just put OS of your choice to card (I tried with Rasbian and also some Kodi distro so far). Can someone verify if the same is true for RPI4. I dont expect any difference - it should work as before (as Colin said - just don't put SD card).
Oops. No, I only tried this with a raspi 3B+ ... So I could be completely mistaken.
@Colin: You find the info in this video (both 3b+ and 4)
Hi, could you do something with the Smt32 (Blue Pill) and Lora?
So far I never used STM processors.
@@AndreasSpiess That could be a challenge
Some critique:
* The fact that there is a 3x increase in the network speed is the only true part in the statement on GbE (as noted by many others).
* The reason given for choosing Buster is probably just PR because he didn't know better. From a technical standpoint there is a *clear* advantage of choosing the newest stable of Debian that will show over the next years when it will get increasingly hard to get new versions of applications to build and run on the old PIs. Of course some of the lower-level RPi applications have to be changed but this is way less than the zillions of Debian packages... To put this into perspective: Stretch is now 2 years old but due to Debian's development process the packages it contains are about 3-9 months older than that. This can have serious implications and makes it way harder to get support.
* The second video output is very useful for video walls, advanced media centers etc.
You are right. I did a mistake with my Ethernet comment and I apologize. I can understand the "Buster decision". However, I would have wished that, with this decision, they synchronized (postponed) the HW release.
@@AndreasSpiess you mean deferring the hardware release till buster is actually released? That wouldn't have changed anything really. The vast majority if not all of the problems that will occur now (one week from release) will be RPi-specific and would not be found without people actually working on the RPi. That's an orthogonal problem to the "base OS selection" though.
You are right with the small projects. But the bigger ones (Retropi etc. had preproduction Pi4s and were just not ready with their releases. A product release end of summer/beginning of autumn would have changed a lot in my opinion,. Even name it "Beta" would have been better. Then it would have been clear that it is addressed to developers. With announcing it as a desktop replacement, they definitively left the (all forgiving) Maker space.
So clear and honest, really informative Andreas, happy I just decided & today receieved the Odroid N2 instead
I hope you will have less software issues.
Only one problem with this device is heating , without proper heat sink it's hard to achieve emulate
if you plan to put it in a case ,there are $20 case options that will eliminate any angst over the problem.... this would be more for the prolific worrier.... ;)
SoC update coming in few days/weeks. Independent testing has verified a 3-5C improvement in temps.
Very well done. Puts it all in proper perspective. In my case, I use a 3b as well as an older 2. Would love the higher USB/ETHERNET speeds, but am also concerned about what seems to be a significant increase in heat.
Thank you!
I tipically like you videos but here you just critique all the changes that have been made example for the dual hdmi out you could you also use it for multiplayer arcade center or even have a graphical application running on one screen and the debug on the other one. As I agree with you for the eMMC part I would think that it would raise the coste a lot a tho not stay in the 35$-ish lineup. One thing they could add is a line IN port but if you plug a sound card in it I bet it would do a lot better in voice recognition / face recognition. Also a word about the architecure, ok it's a different one but the less exprienced ones usually code in python for theirs apps so I think that there will be no problem here. Anyway thanks for pointing out everythings thats wrong about a things that you JUST bought and not tested for much longer
Agreed. Criticizing the pi 4 for not sticking with an ancient Debian version is silly.
Thank you for sharing your opinion. One scenario could have been to coordinate hardware with software and deliver the whole at a different moment (maybe end of summer). I did not see a pressing need to release the hardware now other than marketing.
@@AndreasSpiess Maybe they just finished the product and decided to release it, looking forward to the software part.
@@AndreasSpiess The software is mostly open source and community driven. The only way to get the software up to speed is to release the hardware and let the community figure it out.
Could not some of the problem be fixed if you compile your own kernel from one of the most recent kernel releases? I would think that would be good for a real DIYer. And with the added throughput from the USB mass storage and extra cores, it should be relatively speedy to compile a kernel.
I do not know. So I have to wait till they fixed the issues :-(
@@AndreasSpiess Virtually all of the Raspberry Pi Linux Distros use fairly old kernels. If you compiled, say, the most recent kernel version, version 5.1.15 and installed it, it will probably solve most of those issues, since many of them are driver based, like the lack of 4K support.
dual monitor is very interesting in a lot of uses, for example, monitoring stations
Good example, but in percentage usage of RPI that might not be "lot" users. Probably less than 10% will use the feature.
Yes, that is what I am looking for, something small to drive 2 displays at 1080p for monitoring systems to offload from my main system. After work I can switch SD cards and boot up Retropie once they get it ready on the 4 in several months or so.
I look for a tiny computer to connect a SAS/MiniSAS drive to. Anything that's not in the company-grade pricerange? Quite hard to find anything that comes with PCIe x4 to use a SAS-card.
if there was a survey taken what the pi is used for, I can assure you that one of the biggest would be retro gaming... is this going to up the ease of retro gaming , you bet it will.... so all those speed increases will be very welcome.... as for the dual monitor outputs... that I believe will be a huge deal for things like changeable marquees on arcade cabs and even simulated pinball backglasses... the pi has a much farther reach now, then just the SBC tinkering projects days... so no poo poo on the pi pi fella....
Thank you for bringing some light into the gaming aspects, an area I have no knowledge.
Thanks, Andreas! I was already leaning toward getting 3B+ boards for my next projects because of the power and heat differences, but the software issue (which no other review I've seen mentioned) is a deal-killer for me. Like you, I have burn scars from using early versions of new software, so I'll be "waiting for Christmas" to try the 4 ;-)
The description says you get affiliate commissions on "your purchases the next 24 hours". I'm about to place another order with Banggood. Does that mean I need to use a different link to give you a cut?
Thank you for supporting the channel. You can use any link and then I should get the cut. And they say that this is the case for orders during the next day.
eMMC or SPI flash - missed opportunity
You can use USB 3 for Debian. I put noobs on 2GB SD and selected the plugged in USB 3 stick destination & full install used about 8GB of a 16GB just fine. Both left plugged in it's quick enough.
@ Chris: This is the scenario I mentioned as a workaround. I still prefer to have only the USB drive.
The RPF has said this will never happen in the RPi, because there is literally no room on the PCB which is already 6 layers thick with circuitry. Never going to happen.
After watching all the recent reviews I'm kinda glad I held off buying one, I'm going to hold out for the revision model. Thx for the info!
You are welcome!
It’s just a software issue the RPi 4 is powerful for it’s size and money, it only needs some software optimization that’s all I purchased a 4g version to use as a desktop replacement for common tasks like browsing the internet doing some libre office Work watching movies and from what I saw on review and forum it can handle my needs if you want to use it for more advanced stuff you better get a lattepanda or something from this caliber
Prices for 3B+ went up :(
Not where I live...
But will it water your garden (A timed, WIFI, valve controller) and count the squirrels running along your fence top? Thanks for your review, Andreas.
You are welcome. And I would love to have squirrels in my garden. They are quite rare here...
I'd have liked an RTC.
Cost of adding RTC according to RPF: About $10
Percentage of Community Needing RTC: 10% or less
Room on PCB for RTC: Less than 2% open
Never going to happen on the B model. Stop hoping.
I have the impression that the Odroid N2 is a much better choice. Am I right?
I do not know. I stick with the RPI because of the big eco system.
you can't see a reason for 2 monitors? LOL
But fortunately, I have viewers with a lot of ideas...
Theres really no reason. Except if you are a strange geek.
@@gogamontana8920 welp, I am the strange geek here :D
Do you have any other recomendations for a better single board computer from other manufacturers?
Tinker Board looked very good until RPi4B came out ! In this price range, even with the extra cost of 4GB of memory, I don't think anything can beat it !
Nothing with support as good as the pi. The 4 may not be perfect yet, but you can be damned sure that it will be better more quickly than any other board out there.
@@marsrocket Pi software works. There are monthly magazines. There is a huge user community. No other SBC even comes close.
@gl0sek: I will stick with the RPi because of its big community. I think the HW is fine, it just was released too early.
Brilliant. I was wondering all week about the pi4. Andreas spoonfeeds us all!!! Wait till its wrinkles are ironed out.
Thank you!
@@AndreasSpiess bitte. Wish i had time in a some years to share the same. Who wants to know how to write drivers, os deep internals, uCs design?
@@AndreasSpiess you give out a lot.
The limitations of Raspian Buster vs Stretch is purely a firmware issue. Are there any hardware limitations with the RPi 4B 4GB now that would make waiting to buy now? My plan is to buy now from Adafruit for $55, install Ubuntu or Debian, develop apps, and benchmark performance. I can always change Distros later, add features like booting from a USB SSD later. Your thoughts?
I think there are two problems. One I Buster without support of many software packages. The other is drivers for the new hardware. Your strategy will maybe change #1, if the other distressed run on RPI4, but maybe not #2. And the boot issue seems not related to Buster, either.
At last, a non-raspi-zombie review of the rpi4.
:-)
Question: can you get full throughput on both of the USB 3.0 ports at the same time? If I had 2 SATA to USB 3.0 SSD's. Can I transfer files on both drives and expect to get the full throughput?
I do not know as this will not be a typical requirement for me.
This video makes several significant mistakes and significantly factual omissions.
1. Chromium has the GPU intentionally DISABLED because of a bug. So you are literally playing a video entirely in software decoding, then marveling that performance is bad - I wonder why. The reason for this is that the new open-source OpenGLES Driver is enabled by default, but Chromium is using the old proprietary blob and can't talk OpenGLES. You say this will be fixed eventually, but this will actually be fixed in a few weeks from now, according to RPF. Stop saying it will be longer and a bigger deal than it is!
2. The Pi Foundation has a firmware update coming within a few days/weeks (after further testing) which, in independent testing, reduces temps by 3-5C on average and improves speeds. Turns out a power management system was disabled.
3. A full size HDMI connector would literally not fit. In fact, they couldn't fit miniHDMI connectors because they wouldn't fit. The board was about ~3-5mm too long during the design process up until the end because of routing difficulties. So, if you can't fit in ONE HDMI connector, why not fit two micros?
4. eMMC would not fit AT ALL in a B-size. You would need a new Model C to have ANY eMMC. The board could barely pack in all of the stuff it currently has! Plus, eMMC is expensive and less replaceable than SD cards are. eMMC will never be available on a Model B - there is literally no room on the PCB without causing interference. You can push the laws of physics only so far.
5. The SD Card Controller is doubled in speed in the Pi 4 thanks to a new SD controller system within the SoC. Plus, if you actually SHUT DOWN your Pi instead of unplugging it, and buy reputable SD cards, failure is rare. I have never had an SD card die on me in over 4 years of ownership of Pis. I pay about... $5 premium for quality.
6. Speaking of this, the Pi 4 finally has OpenGLES 3 AND a working Linux driver for it. All other Mali-based boards (saw someone begging for Mali and you liked that comment) are often missing Linux drivers, don't have OpenGLES 3, or are otherwise lacking software support and other features. Plus, VideoCore VI now gives many Mali boards a run for their money in performance.
Thank you for your insights. I just compared what is promised and what I got. As you do with all other products.
In the early days of Raspberries where only makers bought it, maybe it was different. But now they position it as a desktop replacement which is no more only for makers. I would have expected they synchronize the HW with the SW releases. Just 3 month would have changed a lot and would have given the SW guys a bit time. And it was no need to rush with the HW in my opinion.
@@AndreasSpiess That might be true. It did arrive a little early, and they said that the RPF development process is "we pick a date - several months from now - and then we just keep working until that date and unless there's something insanely broken, we ship."
Looks like they shipped a little less far-along than I and we would have liked.
At 8:22 you pointed out to use a USB drive for booting. I've been using a Intenso micro 64GB about a year ago, and it broke even faster then the SD cards I used before that.
Most of us use SSDs in our PCs without problems (at least here). So you were very unlucky.
47 downvotes? for what? it's a single board computer! not your favorite games console or iphone, jeesh some people.
i was wondering the same thing, what is there to downvote here.
The more clicks a video gets the more thumb down it also gets. I assume that some people were attracted by the thumbnail and clicked, but did not like the content.
Booting from SSD works with RPi3B+ . Are you saying that this feature is not supported in RP4? This may be a documentation error Andreas.
At this moment in time you cannot boot from USB, but it has been confirmed that it is coming in either the next, or second firmware update.
@@AndyNicholson Bit sad. My RPi3B+ runs smoothly with a MSATA drive.
For me, the biggest mistake of the PI4, is the lack of SATA controller.
USB3 is good enough for me given the small space they have on the board.
@@AndreasSpiess Yes. It is good enough. If the PI4 can boot from USB. SD cards are not build for all then read and write cycles. And the PI4 gets super hot, compared to the PI3.
I would only need 4K from my PC. I am more interested in running the dual video in 1080p with 60Hz refresh as a secondary machine to drive my extra displays for monitoring systems and switching over to RetroPie after work. I know RetroPie isn't ready for the Pi 4 yet, but it won't be all that long.
A good application for the Pi: Work and leisure. I hope it will not get export restrictions because it is now a "dual-use" device as it is the case with many products in other areas ;-)
The Buster release is already downloadable on the raspberry pi website. I have had it downloaded for several days. I am UK based, but surely you can still download from the official site?
I also had to download it. No problems here, too
The one thing I would really though you would be hitting was the power consumption ... 3A+ --- even more depending on the attachments to the USB ports ... Not something makers are happy with .. This is a big hit for applications that require for example remote deployment ... that is solar panels/Wind power ...
Now the bigger memory is a Huge improvement, but that comes at a price ... bad but unavoidable.
But I truly understand why the RPi team went along with faster ethernet, faster USB, and faster CPU ... also the new SoC is made on 28nm, not 40nm ... that made it possible for the RPi4 to stay at 3A minimum and not 4-5+ if it was a 40nm chip ... Even like so the Thermals are according to your video not that great ... though 65C is in any case an acceptable temperature for the chip specs.
Also the room temp would be an important parameter since right now All Europe in under 40C+ (100F+) :) ... those 65C could actually be a very very good result Andreas :)
Fortunately my lab is in the basement and still below 25 C ;-) The power consumption in my case was around (average) 1.3A. I did not see 3A.
I bought the flowers. They don't even have a USB port! Thanks for the video.
Good choice and a "longterm investment"!
Love it hahaha, thanks for the laugh.
Hello Andreas. As usual, i think you’re right and i will follow your advice. Best regards from France.
Maybe it becomes a Christmas gift ;-)
I was ordering it when i saw your vidéo. I’m working on a project with node red and a database and i need some ram. But today i’m not sur that a pi is the best solution. And the excessive température is also a big problem. (Sorry for all mistakes but i’m french with an Apple corrector 😄)
Thanks for the commentary ! I too, was disappointed in the lack of eMMC. I am wondering if they are waiting for microSD Express to see if it will really "catch on" ! I am disappointed in your video test at 1080P ! Is the bottleneck lack of RAM ? For people with "deep pockets" can an 8GB RPi be far behind ? Nobody wants a fan, but either a large heat sink and/or a fan looks like a requirement.
4k did not work correctly if the window became a little too big. And it seems to be a software issue.
I wonder what is the improvements on the SD card controller. Recently stumbled upon SanDisk Industrial microSD card which actually has a better theoretical read/write speed than then consumer part. The only competing consumer solution is probably SanDisk Nintendo Switch SD card since it is advertised to have read/write close to 100MB/s. Regular consumer SanDisk microSD (Ultra series) only advertised theoretical read of 90MB/s but back of the packaging actually state 10MB/s of write.
For the eMMC version you better wait for compute module 4. not going to see it really quick soon unless industrial demands them faster than RPi Foundation assume
AFAIK, they now support a faster SD speed. But I did not test is so far.
Endlich sagt mal jemand, dass die Änderungen für Makers nix bringen. NAS ist sicherlich einer der wenigen Anwendungsfälle. (Sorry for the German comment) Keep up the great work!
From google translate: Finally someone says that the changes for Makers bring nothing. NAS is certainly one of the few use cases.
This statement did not mean the hardware, it meant the Buster release. The hardware is a big improvement, as I clearly showed. When the software will be ready ;-)
Did you purchase the codec from the pi foundation?
I did not purchase a codec. I just installed the official pi image and upgraded it to to the newest version
@@AndreasSpiess Edit: just re-checked site says Pi4 has this disabled, the website says Pi3 and under www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/configuration/config-txt/codeclicence.md
any proprietary cooling solutions for RPi 3 & 4 out there? Especially H2O versions?
I do not know. Water cooling would be an overkill for me.
@@AndreasSpiess I agree. A solution for me is to stack a bunch of heat sinks if I really need the cooling.
No 4k h264 hardware playback support