PARAGON - AVAILABLE ON AMAZON HERE!!! Paperback From UK site: www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1797861581 Paperback from US site: www.amazon.com/dp/1797861581 Kindle version now here: www.amazon.com/dp/B07NYJBLQ4?...
@Rough Collies Rock I thought about doing that, but I don't really see the point in harping on the negatives. Sometimes I get some sense of cathartic fun out of dissecting something bad, but I like Babylon 5 too much to dedicate that much time to a video like that
JMS had major budget constraints making The Lost Tales...it was only going to be a DVD release....if he had managed to make it take off he probably would have got a larger budget to make the follow ups
In fact, most "sets" weren't real sets, but created entirely using CGI, which I believe is the main reason for their lifeless appearance and lack of meaningful camera work. It was a nice way of saying goodbye... kinda anyway, but as a movie/tv show thing I think it did suck actually.
Almost finished season three - in less than a week LOL! I have a channel on science fiction too (Clever Orbits) and would be honored to hear your thoughts - m.ua-cam.com/channels/6dAW3Hm31RzmTqyFilScZg.html
I usually agree with all of these vids, but not this time. The Lost Tales was a great return to form from the intense & profound opening with G'Kar's narration and the beautifully sombre music. I enjoyed the first story and assumed that the possessed guy wasn't able to do so much damage because he'd already been sedated a certain amount. Very interesting (and quite creepy) story over all even though I'm not so religious myself. But the second story is exactly why we all love B5 so much. Absolutely epic scale and a moral dilemma for the protagonist. This is the very heart & soul of B5 and as always, Galen & Sheridan were awesome together. Very satisfying conclusion too..! As for the VFX, I always preferred B5's CGI as opposed to ST's models. The VFX on Lost Tales was a step up from 10 years previously and I was overjoyed the first time I saw.
I'd knock it up a few notches from "It sucks" to "OK" just for the scene where it shows the Warlock destoyer's G.O.D particle cannons one-shotting the Vorchan. It was such a shame we never got to see more Warlocks in action. .
On why it looks so much worse... B5 hid a lot of the sins in their budget modular set construction with shadows. It was really expertly done to make the most of what they had to work with. LT's brighter, more even lighting made many scenes look flat and fake.
I once said on a previous video that Babylon 5's dated CGI was heroin to me. That still holds true, there's something oddly nostalgic about those ships to me and effects to me. These updated ones are nice but to me are hollow in comparison.
I think you nailed the effects part of b5 perfectly. Although may I add although not in anyway amazing for the time what b5 was able to do was create a unique gritty look for the show which even now still looks decent. The latter spin offs although having a better effects budget went for more of a style over substance. I suppose the old saying "creativity thrives on limitations," is best suited here (just like the same was for star trek 2.)
B5 is easily one of my favorite scifi universes, and I'd love to see more, but at the same time, with the way older franchises are being handled these days, maybe it's a blessing that WB is choosing not to do anything with B5.
I didn't like the demon arch in it.. But I DID like the second story with the prince and Sheradin I DID like... AND FUDGE! The Intro to the movie.... I still look it up here on UA-cam from time to time as it gives me the shivers.. They did a wonderful Tribut to G'kar even though at the start it was not ment to be a Tribut as Andreas Katsulas only passed away like a week or only days before the release of the movie.
Hmm. The B5 mythology has alot of potential. What other first ones are there that didn't leave? What about the planet B5 was orbiting? Are there connections to other galaxies? Is there a native race in hyperspace? The Vorlons were kind of like Angels and the Shadows kind of like Devils or Demons. Did either race have a splinter or hybrid? Thanks for the cool video 👍
I actually enjoyed it. I liked the 2nd part better with Sheridan and Galen. The choice to save and try to rehabilitate the problematic kid wasn't surprising to me as it was a very Sheridan choice, but it was still satisfying. I knew when Vintari said he never had much kindness in his life that Sheridan was more conflicted than ever. So yeah, I like whenever compassion wins in the end as opposed to "kill the problem" because compassion is harder and requires more longterm commitment. It proves he's a good president and a good dad tbh, he will work hard not just for the billions but also for the individual. And there is always the hope (which he considers on a diet) but it's still there: the hope that this kid will become not just a better person through kindness and compassion but also a better emperor and thus helping both Earth and Centauri Prime. So it's kind of a win-win if he's able to turn this kid around.
The intro alone is, I think, worth it in the Lost Tales. And the introduction to the second segment with the reporter and the interview always makes me incredibly sad. The rest of it I don´t actually remember (it seemed pointless without anything afterwards), but some moments were brilliant.
It will start out by saying that i bought this DVD on the day it was released, and have everything for Babylon 5 on DVD. I was a big fan from the start. The Religion aspect of the one story gave me a feeling that the writer of the story does not really understand Religion or at least the Abramoivch religions (Christianity, Jewish and Islam). No member of those religions believe we are going to find God or Angles among the stars. God exists outside of our universe.
I remember when the Lost Tales came out. I felt like you said. The in person stuff felt more like student level production. Cheap sets and green screen.
To be fair that is more on the Wachowski Sisters. They were given a chance to make something great by WB and instead they gave everyone a whimper. It was their shot at redemption after several failed projects and it killed the working relationship between WB and the Wachowski Sisters.
The stakes and dilemma of the first story was that the priest could revitalize interest in his religion and spread awareness of a cosmic theological threat if he paraded around this victim of an apparently real demon. The downside would be that the victim would remain possessed which would be contrary to his teachings to help the innocent. If the priest exorcised him on the station immediately, then he would help the victim but have no evidence that demons are a real threat. The reality is the "demon" was a prisoner on Earth and had to hitch a ride on a human to leave it. He was trying to goad the priest into doing the "right thing" and exorcise the victim right away. That way the demon would be free to return to heaven so to speak since he was in outer space away from his prison. Priest and Lockley figure it out and decide to exorcise him on Earth where it would be returned to it's prison.
These two episodes are much better than he makes it look. I enjoyed them, esp. the one with the potential emporer. They are more about ethical dilemata than the the B5 universe. I don't like the religious stuff, because it made no sense in the B5 universe. I guess Lorien would have mentioned that "there are some demons on Earth someone bonded to the planet and it's life forms and you can release them with some words spoken by a religious fool who has to be christian btw.".
It felt like I was watching a play on stage. I couldn’t put my finger on why until your review. They have a ton of scenes where there just sitting in a room talking or standing in a room talking. No fluid scenes down corridors. Just standing around on sets that seemed way too clean.
Did not know it was an attempt at a reboot. Thought it was a few story ideas thrown together. If it was an attempt at a reboot it would need more fleshing out. As stand-alone stories I like it.
Another excellent video. I can definitely see your argument, though I will add the qualifier that I did enjoy The Lost Tales even if it wasn't exactly like Babylon 5. Now, that being said, I would like to ask you whether you've seen Gene Roddenberry's Earth Final Conflict. While it was produced after his death by his now deceased wife, I thought it was a better series than Andromeda, the other series produced from his story ideas after his death. And though it went off the rails in its fifth season, it had a pretty solid four seasons before that. I wouldn't mind hearing your impressions on it.
Hell, no, it didn’t suck. I watch is every time I can. It’s been on comet, channel 11-3 here. I love the characters, the plots afoot, etc and I adore it. One more word on this: Garabaldi. Missed but never forgotten. Ty.
What a wasted opportunity that possession story was. It could have been the beginning of a whole new epic story arc. Imagine if the thing possessing the guy tuned out to be only one of many malicious, incorporeal, demon-like entities that maybe the First Ones used to keep at bay but now they're finally in a position to spread and make the galaxy theirs. And maybe they do this not with big, fiery spectacles(except whenever one is forced to reveal its true form), but by quietly possessing certain people and manipulating the galaxy-wide community into tearing itself apart with fear, paranoia, religious crisis, old prejudices and war. This concept might be retreading some territory from the original series, but it's still a potentially more interesting villain idea than the Drakh were.
@Brad B. I mean LOTR could've worked maybe as a trilogy of TV movies with self-contained plots and better writing, but the final product REAKS of laziness.
Interesting video. I'm in the middle of year 4 of the series. Again. Finished the first two B5 movies The Gathering and In the Beginning. Loved them. Will finish year 4 & 5 before going on to the rest of the movies. Again. For those of you that will watch this video, listen to the verdict and never go anywhere near B5 the series(for that is surely one of the unintended consequences especially for today's headline readers)...an old Egyptian blessing to take with you...'May the gods stand between you and harm...in all the empty places where must walk'....
Yeah, thanks to WB... If they had given JMS a free hand like with the TV show, Crusade could have been amazing, but just like Firefly the bigwigs had to screw it over with studio interference, reshuffling episodes and demanding a new and worse first episode to be made that spells everything out to the dumbest potential viewer instead of trusting the audiences intelligence and patiance and the author's vision. :/ At least that's for Crusade. I have no idea what the hell went wrong with Legend of the Rangers and Lost Tales was just too short with too little budget after too much time and with poor marketing to boot. If they had played their cards better, they might have been able to stir up enough hype to get something off the ground which might even have led to a proper series or movie in the end, but this thing was barely marketed. If I hadn't been hanging around on B5 fansites at the time, I'd never have known Lost Tales even existed until this video. I have literally never hear or seen it being discussed ANYWHERE until today, outside of the short mention of it's existence on fansites and nothing more.
A appreciate your review. That being said, I still do hope to acquire those 2 stories on DVD. The good the bad the ugly...it's all still B5 to me and I like to judge things for myself.
There is one simple reason for all your criticism. Budget. B5 Lost tales had a budget of 1 Million an episode Discovery has a budget of 8 Million an episode. With eight times less budget you can't do more than build a few interior sets get some non flashy SFX and hire a few actors. It limits the story you can tell and limits the vision you can put on screen. It's also the reason why JMS said he would not do any more of them unless Warners Bros increased the budget and despite the DVDs selling well they said no because there was not enough interest to justify the budget increase. :(
Wrath of Khan had nearly 4 times less.budget than the motion picture but its effects look better than the latter due to using what they had to its fullest. B5 from what I remember he 3 or 4 times less the budget but still looks unique for its time.
Wrath of Khan also didn't spend so much of its budget on excessive and redundant special effects. Somehow I doubt the movie quality remodel of the Enterprise would have cost millions to make.
Ahh it seems Captain Jack survived the thermal grenade and went on to become a priest to repent for his sins in teasing Franklin & Marcus with his beef stroganoff.
I think it was because the full season DVDs were such a huge seller and created new fans that WB asked for more DVDs about Babylon 5. When The Lost Tales flopped, they canceled any further new DVDs.
I think your „diagnosis“ is spot on. The budget was waaaay too small and so was the scope. This feels like something that should be a bonus feature on a big B5 re-release. I remember that they even planned an installment about Garibaldi, which they had to cut because of the small budget. Many of the sets were obviously virtual, especially Lochley‘s quarters. Anyway, back in 2007 it was great to see a little bit new of B5, but I think both TLotR (lol, same acronym as a certain famous fantasy novel) and TLT just watered down B5‘s legacy.
Regarding the sets: Keep in mind that they had to re/create these from scratch and do so on a tiny budget. TLT was, in a word, shallow...if you tried to scratch beneath the surface you saw the shoestrings. I think that, particularly in today's TV entertainment landscape, another B5 would kick total.
Interesting. For me, the other two spin offs sucked but this one showed potential. It was really hard for me to get through the crusade episodes I watched (around 8 episodes) and I disliked the acting and could not connect to any of the characters. The rangers pilot disappointed me too, because the characters were introduced rather clumsily. It was not enough time to introduce them properly, so they stay stereotypical. In the case of The lost tales, i knew that It was more like a teaser for more. While as stand alone stories they don’t work, they succeeded in awaking an interest in more proper stories. Warner wanted to produce more, but only with the same budget as this first one and JMS hoped to get more money to do the stories justice, so he declined. The right choice, I think.
Its quite interesting to see the updated star gate! There is a definite 'so that is what it was _supposed_ to look like all along!' factor which you get in all good improvements to visual effects, whether screen or video games.
I think the biggest issue with the new looks, is that unlike any other property they didn't change the world. Everybody else more or less was new location at least but always with different locations. Where as for the B5 universe it's something we know so well, so when the CGI got added on we noticed every odd bit.
Thumbs up the vid, but kind of disagree. While not great, it was still nice seeing more B5 that was just OK. And I know the intent was to show demand for more content, and then get the bigger budget to actually do the real stories he wanted, but like you said WB just didn't care to invest in it anymore, and it died just as it started.
Short answer, yes. The first one was a misplaced Outer Limits script produced with Babylon 5 props and costumes. The second was quite watchable but ultimately a narrative orphan. It needed to be included in a wider arc and expanded upon, it could've been a killer 'season 7' two parter. As it was it was just enough to be peak one's interest and be boring all at the same time.
According to people I know who worked on the Vancouver set--the budget was slashed the day after they started filming and that forced a lot of rewrites and use of CGI that was only for preproduction
Suggestions for Fantasy: The Hobbit Trilogy - Did it suck? Game of Thrones Season 8 - Did it suck? Why The Dark Crystal/ Age of Resistance is awesome. 😊 That should get you started
I adored B5 for the story, the actors and the characters they portrayed (I mean, G'Kar and Londo are 'the' best twosome in television history as both actors where superb and the writing equally so) but what all follow ups have lacked is those same three elements so it goes to show just how good JMS did because with his available resources it could have bombed and never had the legacy it still carries to this day.
I agree! The DVD was quite boring actually. And very low budget. I do think the CGI space sequences were pretty good though! And since when do crew quarters have a window? 🤣
Thanks for covering the B5 spin off series. I was an avid viewer of the original series and would follow the episode synopsis listing years in advance on the early world wide web. I was disappointed with the ending/last season after the premature ending that they reversed later on and didn't follow the spin offs as a result.
Your explanation of the design of the sets is spot-on. B5 basically is a creature of the early 90s and what looked cool then. One feature of that era is that shows like this sought more detail than shows from the 60s and 70s but not a ton more - it was Battlestar Galactica 2003 that made extreme detail in mechanical devices, ship exteriors and interiors etc. expected. B5's aesthetic was similar in level of detail to TNG. Also it's a matter of continuity - while SG-1 continuously updated their designs during their run, B5 was on the air from '94 through '98 and then sort of on the air with Crusade for 1 more year, and then no more. A major overhaul to B5's aesthetic after a 10 year gap would look as jarring as Star Trek 2009 compared to the last TNG based movie from 2002 or so. Finally it's REALLY weird to see a screen shot of the Orville inserted into a critique of anything B5. :) This is a nice review - I thought I was the only fan on earth who watched this DVD.
I’ll be an outlier here and say that I enjoyed the upgraded CGI representations of the station and various ships, along with the massive interior shots and upgraded living quarters. Which may be due to the fact that I was never much a fan of B5’s bargain-basement visual aesthetic in the first place, which managed to make even the original Star Trek look solid and realistic by comparison. My main issue with the feel of “The Lost Tales” is that the station itself, once the backdrop for so much activity and drama, seems like a ghost town, completely unpopulated. Of course, the great strength of “Babylon 5” was always its storytelling, and here I largely have to agree with the author about the failure of TLT to live up to that legacy (though the second tale wasn’t bad). And, sadly, that’s entirely on JMS.
IIRC, the "demons" are some type of First One/Second One who the Vorlons bitchslapped to Earth and said "Stay in your room until we're not angry at you!".
The One that was, The One that is and The One that shall be. Unfortunately the original success of B5 was not to be delivered again, so it seems to be The Thing that shall not be!
I agree that Warner Bros. have been sorely neglectful of the franchise, and the loss of about half of the cast over time has put a halt to many ideas for continuing as-is. I wish the talk of the movie reboot had amounted to more, although I am incredibly leary of the reboot culture in Hollywood now, but it would have been amazing to see how the original visions for the ships such as the Omega could be realised. The reason for the different graphics in the CGI was because much of the original material had been lost, which is a tragedy.
I totally agree. Doing something with B5 would require massive project. It would propably be impossible in current atmosphere where Sf seasons are around 10 episodes long :(. it would not be enough to make proper B5 story.
I definitely didn't hate The Lost Tales, was a bit underwhelming for sure, but I liked the opening G'Kar bit and it was one last time with the characters so I was happy even if a bit disappointed.
Hi Unfortunately I have to agree with your assessment. I bought the DVD when it came out... haven't watched it since. Based on comments from JMS the problems were twofold. 1. WB has no real interest in B5, so put almost no money into this, and it shows! 2. By this point, WB had lost all of the original 3D models, so the models used were ones previously created by the fans (ironically, something that WB had tried to stomp on in the past). This probably contributed to the "not quite right" look. I also noticed that the lighting in space has more of a Star Trek look, rather than the more realistic B5 lighting. After this, JMS stated he would not revisit the B5 universe unless he could get the budget to do it justice... There has been nothing released since, and it looks like JMS will never revisit B5, because WB won't give anyone else permission and won't fund it themselves. ☹
I think I might have said this in another comment, but I would love to see *Babylon 5* rebooted, with a production design that leans towards what we saw with the rebooted *BSG.* I would prefer to leave much of the same story intact. Granted, JMS has had time to sit on it for quite a while, and audiences have gotten used to story arcs so I imagine there would be less filler as JMS tweaks it a bit to make it much better and even somewhat _new_ for longtime fans. I think growing up in the 70s, enjoying Doctor Who and Blake's 7, I could easily overlook special effects issues when provided a great story. I really loved B5. And now that we have the technology we do, I would love to see more money thrown at it, and a grittier look. I agree with everything you said about the Lost Tales. However, this is one of those things that I watch with the knowledge that I'm grasping at whatever I can get. I feel that nowadays ─ particularly when it comes to _Star Wars_ and _Star Trek_ ─ we fans have come to accept the ridiculous, nonsensical or uninspired simply because _we are so desperate for content._ Myself included. I could be wrong, but we accept mediocrity far too often. _"It's good enough"_ is something we shouldn't abide in this day and age, when we are not nearly as limited in our storytelling techniques as we once were. We should expect _more_ from our genre stories. And while I recognize the subjectivity of film and television, when I hear people praise something that I can't help but consider _objectively_ bad (or more often, a huge missed opportunity), it makes me so sad.
I liked the second half more, they should have really picked Garibaldi for the seqel or an animated Valen story, but I read the Centari Prime and Psi-corps novels that were released after the show and they were amazing.
I only ever saw the original Dark Crystal many many years ago so I don't really have super strong feelings on it. The new Netflix show looks cool though
Lost Tales gave a portmanteau of interesting stories but it gave us a glimpse of what B5 could look like if it got an overhaul. Although if it was done now it would look even better. Also it does have a somewhat 'low budget' feel.
Fantasy is pretty much SI-FI when you think about it...medieval era on different worlds with exotic flora and fauna ( dragons trolls and other beasties)
I liked the second half better. Also I wasn't fond of the changed design of the bay area or whatever that was. Not so much because it has been updated in the 10 year gap. But it doesn't make sense since we already know that it will still look the same when B5 will be blown up. Why would it look different in the time inbetween?
I would love a fight SIM and leader like X wing like game in the Babylon 5 universe Or ATV series in the vein of the expanse. Personally I think JMS should take back Back his Babylon 5 series from Warner brothers Give it to someone else so Fans can get the series on Blu-Ray And then get a crew continuation series for BF5. Because one of the story lines That intrigued me was what happened to John Sheridan Son and trying to prevent the dark prophecy that fell boot for him on his Eighteenth birthday.
I thought the first episode had promise but they didn't follow through with it (God and Satan are real type story). That woulda been interesting in this type of show. And they should of had Sheridan as the lead with maybe one or two of the alien ambassadors involved.
Interestingly there was a third story was scripted, partially cast, and ready to go. It was all about Garibaldi on Mars, at the same time as the other two stories. He ends up coming into contact with the long-extinct Martian species, who talk to him a bit - somehow - and then crumble to dust, leaving him in awe of whatever it is they told him. Which couldn't have been *too* awesome as I don't remember what it was. The script for that is available in one of JMS' B5 scriptbooks. Anyway, for whatever reason they decided at the last minute *not* to film that one, and hold it back for the 2nd volume of Lost Tales. (Whups). This resulted in a little more money for both "Over Here" and "Over There," as well as increased running time for them, which, I think, makes them very padded out and slow. If the lackluster Garibaldi story had been included, I think it would have improved the overall product because we would have had three 25-minute stories rather than two pushing-40-minutes ones, everything would have been tighter (Though probably not more relevant) and I think that would have made this suck less. A beef I really had, BTW, was that B5 in no way felt like B5.
If we would know that demons who are possesing people exist doesnt mean we know that Satan itself exists. And if we knew Satan exists that doesnt mean God exists as well.
For me i thought the VFX for the ships and station looked great, obviously some of the indoor stuff very much lacks. For the "exorcist" short it wasn't anything special other than I was glad to have Lockley at the center of a story which I felt wasn't done enough in season 5. Then the the story with Sheridan was extremely compelling, I was genuinely on the edge of my seat wondering what he was going to do about this kid who "might" cause the destruction of Earth.
Babylon 5 is about storytelling and the people. A 5 season Arc, with follow up movies. Talk less about the special effects and more about the storyline.
I don’t think anyone ever cared about the character of lockley. I don’t know if she was poorly written or acted or both. The other problem is they never bothered to tell the stories we fans wanted. Oh well.
The only thing that sucked is your low opinion of these two great stories, the first being the best, it was clever and unique, too bad you fail to see that with your weak cynical point of view
No, it did not suck. The powers at be didn't give the show enough time for people to get a feel of it. I found it intriguing. What I have noticed is that you don't find any videos on YT of it. They were available for a time, then nothing. I wonder if the episodes dealt to closely with the truth around us, we don't see? Lost Tales episodes revealed the truth.
"Lost Tales" clearly suffered from low budget. Those big, dark, empty sets was a big giveaway as was all of the CG sets. When I rewatch the DVD, I usually skip the first story and just go for the second.
PARAGON - AVAILABLE ON AMAZON HERE!!!
Paperback From UK site: www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1797861581
Paperback from US site: www.amazon.com/dp/1797861581
Kindle version now here: www.amazon.com/dp/B07NYJBLQ4?...
@Rough Collies Rock I thought about doing that, but I don't really see the point in harping on the negatives. Sometimes I get some sense of cathartic fun out of dissecting something bad, but I like Babylon 5 too much to dedicate that much time to a video like that
JMS had major budget constraints making The Lost Tales...it was only going to be a DVD release....if he had managed to make it take off he probably would have got a larger budget to make the follow ups
Anything that has Peter Woodward in it has merit. He's a superb actor.
In fact, most "sets" weren't real sets, but created entirely using CGI, which I believe is the main reason for their lifeless appearance and lack of meaningful camera work. It was a nice way of saying goodbye... kinda anyway, but as a movie/tv show thing I think it did suck actually.
A way of saying a kinds of good bye yeah I suppose it is in some ways, but I agree it did suck as a mini tv series come film.
Thanks to your Legend of the Rangers video last week, I started watching B5 for the first time in three years.
HAVING A BLAST
THANK YOU
Almost finished season three - in less than a week LOL!
I have a channel on science fiction too (Clever Orbits) and would be honored to hear your thoughts - m.ua-cam.com/channels/6dAW3Hm31RzmTqyFilScZg.html
I usually agree with all of these vids, but not this time.
The Lost Tales was a great return to form from the
intense & profound opening with G'Kar's narration
and the beautifully sombre music.
I enjoyed the first story and assumed that the possessed guy
wasn't able to do so much damage because he'd already been
sedated a certain amount. Very interesting (and quite creepy)
story over all even though I'm not so religious myself.
But the second story is exactly why we all love B5 so much.
Absolutely epic scale and a moral dilemma for the protagonist.
This is the very heart & soul of B5 and as always, Galen &
Sheridan were awesome together. Very satisfying conclusion too..!
As for the VFX, I always preferred B5's CGI as opposed to ST's models.
The VFX on Lost Tales was a step up from 10 years previously and I was
overjoyed the first time I saw.
I'd knock it up a few notches from "It sucks" to "OK" just for the scene where it shows the Warlock destoyer's G.O.D particle cannons one-shotting the Vorchan. It was such a shame we never got to see more Warlocks in action.
.
On why it looks so much worse... B5 hid a lot of the sins in their budget modular set construction with shadows. It was really expertly done to make the most of what they had to work with. LT's brighter, more even lighting made many scenes look flat and fake.
I once said on a previous video that Babylon 5's dated CGI was heroin to me. That still holds true, there's something oddly nostalgic about those ships to me and effects to me. These updated ones are nice but to me are hollow in comparison.
I think you nailed the effects part of b5 perfectly. Although may I add although not in anyway amazing for the time what b5 was able to do was create a unique gritty look for the show which even now still looks decent. The latter spin offs although having a better effects budget went for more of a style over substance. I suppose the old saying "creativity thrives on limitations," is best suited here (just like the same was for star trek 2.)
B5 is easily one of my favorite scifi universes, and I'd love to see more, but at the same time, with the way older franchises are being handled these days, maybe it's a blessing that WB is choosing not to do anything with B5.
Word.
They would bring up a diverse homosexual cast that discusses hair color and skin?
"Badass, Goofy and Headstrong". Best rock and roll trio ever.
Cthulhu also endorses Caprica.
He does? Well that does it then, I'll have to watch it
Cthulu is wise.
@@RowanJColeman caprica caprica caprica!
I didn't like the demon arch in it.. But I DID like the second story with the prince and Sheradin I DID like... AND FUDGE! The Intro to the movie.... I still look it up here on UA-cam from time to time as it gives me the shivers.. They did a wonderful Tribut to G'kar even though at the start it was not ment to be a Tribut as Andreas Katsulas only passed away like a week or only days before the release of the movie.
Babylon 5 can’t be replaced
Yes, sadly you're right. Watched them when they were released on DVD, haven't touched them since. Just a collectors item now.
Hmm. The B5 mythology has alot of potential.
What other first ones are there that didn't leave?
What about the planet B5 was orbiting? Are there connections to other galaxies?
Is there a native race in hyperspace?
The Vorlons were kind of like Angels and the Shadows kind of like Devils or Demons. Did either race have a splinter or hybrid?
Thanks for the cool video 👍
I actually enjoyed it. I liked the 2nd part better with Sheridan and Galen. The choice to save and try to rehabilitate the problematic kid wasn't surprising to me as it was a very Sheridan choice, but it was still satisfying. I knew when Vintari said he never had much kindness in his life that Sheridan was more conflicted than ever. So yeah, I like whenever compassion wins in the end as opposed to "kill the problem" because compassion is harder and requires more longterm commitment. It proves he's a good president and a good dad tbh, he will work hard not just for the billions but also for the individual. And there is always the hope (which he considers on a diet) but it's still there: the hope that this kid will become not just a better person through kindness and compassion but also a better emperor and thus helping both Earth and Centauri Prime. So it's kind of a win-win if he's able to turn this kid around.
The intro alone is, I think, worth it in the Lost Tales. And the introduction to the second segment with the reporter and the interview always makes me incredibly sad. The rest of it I don´t actually remember (it seemed pointless without anything afterwards), but some moments were brilliant.
It will start out by saying that i bought this DVD on the day it was released, and have everything for Babylon 5 on DVD. I was a big fan from the start. The Religion aspect of the one story gave me a feeling that the writer of the story does not really understand Religion or at least the Abramoivch religions (Christianity, Jewish and Islam). No member of those religions believe we are going to find God or Angles among the stars. God exists outside of our universe.
I remember when the Lost Tales came out. I felt like you said. The in person stuff felt more like student level production. Cheap sets and green screen.
WB has a library of the best and most successful stuff around. And what do they do instead? Jupiter Ascending.
To be fair that is more on the Wachowski Sisters. They were given a chance to make something great by WB and instead they gave everyone a whimper. It was their shot at redemption after several failed projects and it killed the working relationship between WB and the Wachowski Sisters.
The stakes and dilemma of the first story was that the priest could revitalize interest in his religion and spread awareness of a cosmic theological threat if he paraded around this victim of an apparently real demon. The downside would be that the victim would remain possessed which would be contrary to his teachings to help the innocent. If the priest exorcised him on the station immediately, then he would help the victim but have no evidence that demons are a real threat.
The reality is the "demon" was a prisoner on Earth and had to hitch a ride on a human to leave it. He was trying to goad the priest into doing the "right thing" and exorcise the victim right away. That way the demon would be free to return to heaven so to speak since he was in outer space away from his prison. Priest and Lockley figure it out and decide to exorcise him on Earth where it would be returned to it's prison.
They should have given Bester his own spin-off!
Warner Bros taking an amazing IP and slowly turning it into a shadow of its former self
hmm..... Where have i seen that before?
Unless they're making Bugs Bunny or 1930s James Cagney movies Warner Bros. really are just the worst.
everything is so clearly in front of a green screen.
As a really big b5 fan, i didn't even know about this.
But I also thought legend of the rangers was garbage too.
These two episodes are much better than he makes it look. I enjoyed them, esp. the one with the potential emporer. They are more about ethical dilemata than the the B5 universe. I don't like the religious stuff, because it made no sense in the B5 universe. I guess Lorien would have mentioned that "there are some demons on Earth someone bonded to the planet and it's life forms and you can release them with some words spoken by a religious fool who has to be christian btw.".
@2:255 You should have said "I have a bucket on my head and I'm the great Vorlon God Bugi"
Zog
It felt like I was watching a play on stage. I couldn’t put my finger on why until your review. They have a ton of scenes where there just sitting in a room talking or standing in a room talking. No fluid scenes down corridors. Just standing around on sets that seemed way too clean.
It's because for the most part it was green screen because warners would spend any bloomin money!
Did not know it was an attempt at a reboot. Thought it was a few story ideas thrown together. If it was an attempt at a reboot it would need more fleshing out. As stand-alone stories I like it.
Another excellent video. I can definitely see your argument, though I will add the qualifier that I did enjoy The Lost Tales even if it wasn't exactly like Babylon 5. Now, that being said, I would like to ask you whether you've seen Gene Roddenberry's Earth Final Conflict. While it was produced after his death by his now deceased wife, I thought it was a better series than Andromeda, the other series produced from his story ideas after his death. And though it went off the rails in its fifth season, it had a pretty solid four seasons before that. I wouldn't mind hearing your impressions on it.
I, too, would like to see your thoughts of EFC
Hell, no, it didn’t suck. I watch is every time I can. It’s been on comet, channel 11-3 here. I love the characters, the plots afoot, etc and I adore it. One more word on this: Garabaldi. Missed but never forgotten. Ty.
What a wasted opportunity that possession story was. It could have been the beginning of a whole new epic story arc. Imagine if the thing possessing the guy tuned out to be only one of many malicious, incorporeal, demon-like entities that maybe the First Ones used to keep at bay but now they're finally in a position to spread and make the galaxy theirs. And maybe they do this not with big, fiery spectacles(except whenever one is forced to reveal its true form), but by quietly possessing certain people and manipulating the galaxy-wide community into tearing itself apart with fear, paranoia, religious crisis, old prejudices and war. This concept might be retreading some territory from the original series, but it's still a potentially more interesting villain idea than the Drakh were.
Eh, I still think Legend of the Rangers is worse!
@Brad B. I mean LOTR could've worked maybe as a trilogy of TV movies with self-contained plots and better writing, but the final product REAKS of laziness.
I liked it... It had a chance to be a firefly me space above and beyond
Legend of the Rangers was a disgrace.
Interesting video. I'm in the middle of year 4 of the series. Again. Finished the first two B5 movies The Gathering and In the Beginning. Loved them. Will finish year 4 & 5 before going on to the rest of the movies. Again. For those of you that will watch this video, listen to the verdict and never go anywhere near B5 the series(for that is surely one of the unintended consequences especially for today's headline readers)...an old Egyptian blessing to take with you...'May the gods stand between you and harm...in all the empty places where must walk'....
Love Bruce Boxlietner he was amazing in B5. Agreed B5 was amazing but all the other B5 spin offs were meh
Yeah, thanks to WB...
If they had given JMS a free hand like with the TV show, Crusade could have been amazing, but just like Firefly the bigwigs had to screw it over with studio interference, reshuffling episodes and demanding a new and worse first episode to be made that spells everything out to the dumbest potential viewer instead of trusting the audiences intelligence and patiance and the author's vision. :/
At least that's for Crusade. I have no idea what the hell went wrong with Legend of the Rangers and Lost Tales was just too short with too little budget after too much time and with poor marketing to boot.
If they had played their cards better, they might have been able to stir up enough hype to get something off the ground which might even have led to a proper series or movie in the end, but this thing was barely marketed. If I hadn't been hanging around on B5 fansites at the time, I'd never have known Lost Tales even existed until this video. I have literally never hear or seen it being discussed ANYWHERE until today, outside of the short mention of it's existence on fansites and nothing more.
Between B5 and the previous CAPTAIN POWER, one can almost chart a parallel course with "JMS SF writing" and "evolution of CG on television."
A appreciate your review. That being said, I still do hope to acquire those 2 stories on DVD. The good the bad the ugly...it's all still B5 to me and I like to judge things for myself.
There is one simple reason for all your criticism. Budget.
B5 Lost tales had a budget of 1 Million an episode Discovery has a budget of 8 Million an episode. With eight times less budget you can't do more than build a few interior sets get some non flashy SFX and hire a few actors. It limits the story you can tell and limits the vision you can put on screen.
It's also the reason why JMS said he would not do any more of them unless Warners Bros increased the budget and despite the DVDs selling well they said no because there was not enough interest to justify the budget increase. :(
Wrath of Khan had nearly 4 times less.budget than the motion picture but its effects look better than the latter due to using what they had to its fullest. B5 from what I remember he 3 or 4 times less the budget but still looks unique for its time.
Wrath of Khan also didn't spend so much of its budget on excessive and redundant special effects. Somehow I doubt the movie quality remodel of the Enterprise would have cost millions to make.
Ahh it seems Captain Jack survived the thermal grenade and went on to become a priest to repent for his sins in teasing Franklin & Marcus with his beef stroganoff.
Different guy.
@@chbu7081 Hmm or his stunt double. Either way he has a striking resemblence to him.
This one completely flew under my radar---amazing they were still trying to make Babylon 5 spin offs in 2007!
I think it was because the full season DVDs were such a huge seller and created new fans that WB asked for more DVDs about Babylon 5. When The Lost Tales flopped, they canceled any further new DVDs.
I think your „diagnosis“ is spot on. The budget was waaaay too small and so was the scope. This feels like something that should be a bonus feature on a big B5 re-release. I remember that they even planned an installment about Garibaldi, which they had to cut because of the small budget. Many of the sets were obviously virtual, especially Lochley‘s quarters.
Anyway, back in 2007 it was great to see a little bit new of B5, but I think both TLotR (lol, same acronym as a certain famous fantasy novel) and TLT just watered down B5‘s legacy.
Regarding the sets: Keep in mind that they had to re/create these from scratch and do so on a tiny budget.
TLT was, in a word, shallow...if you tried to scratch beneath the surface you saw the shoestrings.
I think that, particularly in today's TV entertainment landscape, another B5 would kick total.
the only thing that really sucked is that it was the last one they made
Interesting. For me, the other two spin offs sucked but this one showed potential. It was really hard for me to get through the crusade episodes I watched (around 8 episodes) and I disliked the acting and could not connect to any of the characters. The rangers pilot disappointed me too, because the characters were introduced rather clumsily. It was not enough time to introduce them properly, so they stay stereotypical.
In the case of The lost tales, i knew that It was more like a teaser for more. While as stand alone stories they don’t work, they succeeded in awaking an interest in more proper stories. Warner wanted to produce more, but only with the same budget as this first one and JMS hoped to get more money to do the stories justice, so he declined. The right choice, I think.
Its quite interesting to see the updated star gate! There is a definite 'so that is what it was _supposed_ to look like all along!' factor which you get in all good improvements to visual effects, whether screen or video games.
I think the biggest issue with the new looks, is that unlike any other property they didn't change the world. Everybody else more or less was new location at least but always with different locations. Where as for the B5 universe it's something we know so well, so when the CGI got added on we noticed every odd bit.
I liked it. Especially the story about the Exorcism.
Lost Tales was great because it was weird. It still had that evil vs good undertones from Babylon 5.
Thumbs up the vid, but kind of disagree. While not great, it was still nice seeing more B5 that was just OK. And I know the intent was to show demand for more content, and then get the bigger budget to actually do the real stories he wanted, but like you said WB just didn't care to invest in it anymore, and it died just as it started.
Short answer, yes. The first one was a misplaced Outer Limits script produced with Babylon 5 props and costumes. The second was quite watchable but ultimately a narrative orphan. It needed to be included in a wider arc and expanded upon, it could've been a killer 'season 7' two parter. As it was it was just enough to be peak one's interest and be boring all at the same time.
2:17 You sunk my battlestar!
No. It was actually pretty good.
A master piece.
According to people I know who worked on the Vancouver set--the budget was slashed the day after they started filming and that forced a lot of rewrites and use of CGI that was only for preproduction
Suggestions for Fantasy: The Hobbit Trilogy - Did it suck? Game of Thrones Season 8 - Did it suck? Why The Dark Crystal/ Age of Resistance is awesome. 😊 That should get you started
I thought the Demon was just a dissident Vorlon. Possibly one of their kind driven mad by contact with the third space denizens.
I adored B5 for the story, the actors and the characters they portrayed (I mean, G'Kar and Londo are 'the' best twosome in television history as both actors where superb and the writing equally so) but what all follow ups have lacked is those same three elements so it goes to show just how good JMS did because with his available resources it could have bombed and never had the legacy it still carries to this day.
I agree! The DVD was quite boring actually. And very low budget. I do think the CGI space sequences were pretty good though! And since when do crew quarters have a window? 🤣
Thanks for covering the B5 spin off series. I was an avid viewer of the original series and would follow the episode synopsis listing years in advance on the early world wide web. I was disappointed with the ending/last season after the premature ending that they reversed later on and didn't follow the spin offs as a result.
I'm ok with TLT... especially the secind one. Galen is the man. .. And he & Sheridan have great chemistry and dialog.
Your explanation of the design of the sets is spot-on. B5 basically is a creature of the early 90s and what looked cool then. One feature of that era is that shows like this sought more detail than shows from the 60s and 70s but not a ton more - it was Battlestar Galactica 2003 that made extreme detail in mechanical devices, ship exteriors and interiors etc. expected. B5's aesthetic was similar in level of detail to TNG. Also it's a matter of continuity - while SG-1 continuously updated their designs during their run, B5 was on the air from '94 through '98 and then sort of on the air with Crusade for 1 more year, and then no more. A major overhaul to B5's aesthetic after a 10 year gap would look as jarring as Star Trek 2009 compared to the last TNG based movie from 2002 or so. Finally it's REALLY weird to see a screen shot of the Orville inserted into a critique of anything B5. :) This is a nice review - I thought I was the only fan on earth who watched this DVD.
I’ll be an outlier here and say that I enjoyed the upgraded CGI representations of the station and various ships, along with the massive interior shots and upgraded living quarters. Which may be due to the fact that I was never much a fan of B5’s bargain-basement visual aesthetic in the first place, which managed to make even the original Star Trek look solid and realistic by comparison. My main issue with the feel of “The Lost Tales” is that the station itself, once the backdrop for so much activity and drama, seems like a ghost town, completely unpopulated.
Of course, the great strength of “Babylon 5” was always its storytelling, and here I largely have to agree with the author about the failure of TLT to live up to that legacy (though the second tale wasn’t bad). And, sadly, that’s entirely on JMS.
IIRC, the "demons" are some type of First One/Second One who the Vorlons bitchslapped to Earth and said "Stay in your room until we're not angry at you!".
@Reborn In Rationality That is true, as my information comes from non-episode sources. So it's bad storytelling.
The One that was, The One that is and The One that shall be. Unfortunately the original success of B5 was not to be delivered again, so it seems to be The Thing that shall not be!
I agree that Warner Bros. have been sorely neglectful of the franchise, and the loss of about half of the cast over time has put a halt to many ideas for continuing as-is. I wish the talk of the movie reboot had amounted to more, although I am incredibly leary of the reboot culture in Hollywood now, but it would have been amazing to see how the original visions for the ships such as the Omega could be realised.
The reason for the different graphics in the CGI was because much of the original material had been lost, which is a tragedy.
I totally agree. Doing something with B5 would require massive project. It would propably be impossible in current atmosphere where Sf seasons are around 10 episodes long :(. it would not be enough to make proper B5 story.
Are you planning on releasing paragon audiobooks version?
I definitely didn't hate The Lost Tales, was a bit underwhelming for sure, but I liked the opening G'Kar bit and it was one last time with the characters so I was happy even if a bit disappointed.
Hi
Unfortunately I have to agree with your assessment.
I bought the DVD when it came out... haven't watched it since.
Based on comments from JMS the problems were twofold.
1. WB has no real interest in B5, so put almost no money into this, and it shows!
2. By this point, WB had lost all of the original 3D models, so the models used were ones previously created by the fans (ironically, something that WB had tried to stomp on in the past). This probably contributed to the "not quite right" look.
I also noticed that the lighting in space has more of a Star Trek look, rather than the more realistic B5 lighting.
After this, JMS stated he would not revisit the B5 universe unless he could get the budget to do it justice...
There has been nothing released since, and it looks like JMS will never revisit B5, because WB won't give anyone else permission and won't fund it themselves. ☹
I think I might have said this in another comment, but I would love to see *Babylon 5* rebooted, with a production design that leans towards what we saw with the rebooted *BSG.* I would prefer to leave much of the same story intact. Granted, JMS has had time to sit on it for quite a while, and audiences have gotten used to story arcs so I imagine there would be less filler as JMS tweaks it a bit to make it much better and even somewhat _new_ for longtime fans.
I think growing up in the 70s, enjoying Doctor Who and Blake's 7, I could easily overlook special effects issues when provided a great story. I really loved B5. And now that we have the technology we do, I would love to see more money thrown at it, and a grittier look.
I agree with everything you said about the Lost Tales. However, this is one of those things that I watch with the knowledge that I'm grasping at whatever I can get.
I feel that nowadays ─ particularly when it comes to _Star Wars_ and _Star Trek_ ─ we fans have come to accept the ridiculous, nonsensical or uninspired simply because _we are so desperate for content._ Myself included.
I could be wrong, but we accept mediocrity far too often. _"It's good enough"_ is something we shouldn't abide in this day and age, when we are not nearly as limited in our storytelling techniques as we once were. We should expect _more_ from our genre stories. And while I recognize the subjectivity of film and television, when I hear people praise something that I can't help but consider _objectively_ bad (or more often, a huge missed opportunity), it makes me so sad.
I liked the second half more, they should have really picked Garibaldi for the seqel or an animated Valen story, but I read the Centari Prime and Psi-corps novels that were released after the show and they were amazing.
Labyrinth and The Dark Crystal reviews? I'd like to hear your take.
I only ever saw the original Dark Crystal many many years ago so I don't really have super strong feelings on it. The new Netflix show looks cool though
Massive Jim Henson fan since Fraggle Rock all those years ago, shaped my whole outlook. Love Farscape of course.
Looking forward to that Netflix series too. We'll hopefully see more of the Dark Crystal world, Thra.
Lost Tales gave a portmanteau of interesting stories but it gave us a glimpse of what B5 could look like if it got an overhaul. Although if it was done now it would look even better. Also it does have a somewhat 'low budget' feel.
Fantasy is pretty much SI-FI when you think about it...medieval era on different worlds with exotic flora and fauna ( dragons trolls and other beasties)
I liked the second half better. Also I wasn't fond of the changed design of the bay area or whatever that was. Not so much because it has been updated in the 10 year gap. But it doesn't make sense since we already know that it will still look the same when B5 will be blown up. Why would it look different in the time inbetween?
Wow that's a lot of green screen backgrounds. It would have looked better if they just shot it all in the lobby of Hayatt hotel.
I would love a fight SIM and leader like X wing like game in the Babylon 5 universe Or ATV series in the vein of the expanse. Personally I think JMS should take back Back his Babylon 5 series from Warner brothers Give it to someone else so Fans can get the series on Blu-Ray And then get a crew continuation series for BF5. Because one of the story lines That intrigued me was what happened to John Sheridan Son and trying to prevent the dark prophecy that fell boot for him on his Eighteenth birthday.
I thought the first episode had promise but they didn't follow through with it (God and Satan are real type story). That woulda been interesting in this type of show. And they should of had Sheridan as the lead with maybe one or two of the alien ambassadors involved.
If you are a Cthulhu fan, what did you think of the Lovecraftian "Babylon 5: Thirdspace"?
I made a video on Thirdspace a while ago, it's in my Babylon 5 playlist
Interestingly there was a third story was scripted, partially cast, and ready to go. It was all about Garibaldi on Mars, at the same time as the other two stories. He ends up coming into contact with the long-extinct Martian species, who talk to him a bit - somehow - and then crumble to dust, leaving him in awe of whatever it is they told him. Which couldn't have been *too* awesome as I don't remember what it was. The script for that is available in one of JMS' B5 scriptbooks.
Anyway, for whatever reason they decided at the last minute *not* to film that one, and hold it back for the 2nd volume of Lost Tales. (Whups). This resulted in a little more money for both "Over Here" and "Over There," as well as increased running time for them, which, I think, makes them very padded out and slow. If the lackluster Garibaldi story had been included, I think it would have improved the overall product because we would have had three 25-minute stories rather than two pushing-40-minutes ones, everything would have been tighter (Though probably not more relevant) and I think that would have made this suck less.
A beef I really had, BTW, was that B5 in no way felt like B5.
If we would know that demons who are possesing people exist doesnt mean we know that Satan itself exists. And if we knew Satan exists that doesnt mean God exists as well.
Babylon 5: So Very Tired
For me i thought the VFX for the ships and station looked great, obviously some of the indoor stuff very much lacks. For the "exorcist" short it wasn't anything special other than I was glad to have Lockley at the center of a story which I felt wasn't done enough in season 5. Then the the story with Sheridan was extremely compelling, I was genuinely on the edge of my seat wondering what he was going to do about this kid who "might" cause the destruction of Earth.
Babylon 5 is about storytelling and the people. A 5 season Arc, with follow up movies. Talk less about the special effects and more about the storyline.
I don’t think anyone ever cared about the character of lockley. I don’t know if she was poorly written or acted or both. The other problem is they never bothered to tell the stories we fans wanted. Oh well.
the best part of lost tales was the technomages
The only thing that sucked is your low opinion of these two great stories, the first being the best, it was clever and unique, too bad you fail to see that with your weak cynical point of view
Best rating ever: "Shrug" ))))
Do did it suck for legend of the seeker
"BABYLON 5: THE LOST TALES - DID IT SUCK?"
No. Next question.
It's striking how good B5 was and how meh to downright horrible (looking at you Crusade) the offshoots were.
No, it did not suck. The powers at be didn't give the show enough time for people to get a feel of it. I found it intriguing. What I have noticed is that you don't find any videos on YT of it. They were available for a time, then nothing. I wonder if the episodes dealt to closely with the truth around us, we don't see? Lost Tales episodes revealed the truth.
and again it's still better than STD
The main problem with the Lost Tales was that the first story was so incredibly boring.
Highlander did it suck it had the midevil aspect of it and it also had the battle for immortality that had made syfy so good in the first place
mostly agree
"Lost Tales" clearly suffered from low budget. Those big, dark, empty sets was a big giveaway as was all of the CG sets. When I rewatch the DVD, I usually skip the first story and just go for the second.
how the fuck did i not know about this?
TL; DR: Yes.