No reason to not have a safety net, it was irresponsible to hit it without one IMO. Taking precautions against literal death does not make it any less "gnarly"
The main riders of Hardline are used to these speeds and distances, bk has tons of videos landing 90ft jumps, so for them it's just another day at work. With all the NEW riders, they need the net. @@rarelycomments
I think the net was part of the original plan, jumping without was a dig for attention. Hence why the two biggest tubers in the race were there to do the test jump.
7:20 "it's not even like you're excited to watch, it's almost like your anxious to watch." Perfectly stated. I love Hardline, it's by far my favorite sporting event of the year, but I'm not trying to watch Evil Knievel.
I think when you get a professional rider like Dean questioning the validity of a feature like that, not even for himself, but as he says for his friends literally risking their lives. You have to think it's gone too far. I'm all up for an exciting course to watch as a punter but not at the potential expense of the riders participating. I mean we only need to look at the various Rampage examples of when it's gone wrong to know where we should realistically be putting limits on not only what's possible but whats's relatively safe. Clicks, views, accolades etc should never be at the expense of the participants.
Jim had concussion but Tarney (or however you spell her name) spent almost a season out with her concussion and Matt Jones himself got concussed so badly once his doctor said he shouldn't jump at all for ages! And this is the least worst outcome for Jim? Also, most jumps out there are dirt takeoff's and landings, so when they go wrong the rider is, at least, landing and rag dolling on dirt - wooden ramps don't give much! I also believe that in Downhill the land itself should be worked with and leave all the wooden jumps to the Dirt Jumpers - although Hardline has become a cross between the very best of a combination of the disciplines, so does have to go further! But I wish it would include more Tech on the course - all tracks/courses these days just seem to be going for bigger and bigger jumps!? The Atherton's did this, of course, on their 'slabs' line - using what was there in the ground already to good effect! Here, they've left out the top forest completely, which for me is a shame! They also missed a trick to team up with the team that brought Go Below to Wales - a whole load of sprung netting in an underground cave, who could've set up a perfectly good safety net system and even lit the 'canyon' for a greater dramatic effect! I worry that in a few days, someone will come off very worse for wear when they get the takeoff wrong or worse still if they don't have enough speed - imagine them throwing the bike away and being ejected away sideways from a perhaps hastily erected safety net!
its not a single atlete that risks his life for "red bull" and red bull should see this. is a race everyone should be able to survive this evertime going down the hill.
Lip is a bit much but overall the feature is gnarly not not as gnarly as features hit on motocross bikes like the arc d triomphe jump or even Josh bender jaw drop one of the OG freeride sends
The new features looked hardcore enough, then we see this............. I don't think th emajority of the field would want to risk their season based on this specific jump. I suspect team managers will basically ban their Pro riders participating. Look what has happened to Jackson, his 2024 season was over before it started. Maybe, this needs to be an event for riders with the skillset to compete however don't have a season that could end prematurely?
Why is there so much hate for Hardline this year? This was testing and revision are being made........Redbull Rampage is just as sketch so why the hate?
I think it's gone a bit too far... It's not a matter of changing the lip or adding nets. The feature can go very wrong in so many unpredictable ways. Is this even the direction we want the sport to go? I don't now maybe I'm just getting old.
Clad the scaffolding with wood panels and velcro. Put the riders in velcro suits as well. So if they dont make it over the gap they stick to the wall and can be plucked off later. Nah, just kidding. I totally feel your words, Dean. How many red bull athletes died over the years bc of exceeding their limits...?
@@AlexKoehn47 yeah but Matt Jones is sponsored by Redbull and has some DH experience, his twin brother races the world cups and also is racing Hardline. Just because Tom can jump really big gaps doesn’t mean he can ride down hardline, it’s a mentally steep track
Ok I worded that wrong Really since matt Jones isnt a hardcore racer either, he doesn't be long there...but RedBull hard-line hasn't gotten to the point of officialality, compared to ICU races. So he still has some room to race a track that's meant for hardcore racers.
Not having safety net in place is a dick move in a pissing contests that is much my riskier if the is even a slight breeze . The wind measured at the ramps is not always indicative of that over the ravine. Anyway I think they Need hammock net at both ends and the side. Bernard nearly missed the landing. A net between the ramps prob wouldn’t have saved him.
if u watch BKS jump closeley he almost died......he barely could get the bike straight after getting compressed to the left......almost landen in nowhere land.......tahnk god it didnt happen
You are right, its a very ugly jump and looks out of place compared to the rest of the course. However, notwithstanding that the ramp radius profile needs correcting, technically its not a hard jump, if this was 2 feet off the ground, nobody would think twice about a 70 foot jump. Both BK and MJ jumped it successfully at the first attempt, and MJ jumped it really well, if a little long. Jim got kicked by the lip, knew he had to ditch the bike, and had a lucky landing, but he still made the distance ok 🙂. Glad his injuries were minor. Its the consequences of making a mistake that really make this a serious feature. If you are short, you are probably 98% dead. I do think a safety net is required, and crash mats/air bags at the far end because dropping into a crash net would be ok, but the forward speed while accelerating downwards hitting the scaffolding it what will kill you. I mean you could also look at the 100+ foot jump at the bottom of the course, and if you come up short on that you will just plough into the hill and with all that forward speed you will be seriously hurt. So where do you draw the line. I am not sure that all the HL riders will want to run that jump and roll the dice with the consequences and you are right I am not sure all the teams will be on board with potentially putting their DH riders at risk so early in the season, but there is no chicken run is there, so how will they score it. Will be interesting to see if they leave it in. Look at Rampage and Brendog, he is one if not the best canyon jumper in the world, he did 2 features never done before, both would have killed him if he got it wrong and the run in to that canyon gap was just mental, he even had to hop over another guys run on the way in. How many other people would ever attempt that canyon gap. Cant wait for the weekend.
The safety net needs to be at least 80 feet wide. It would be so easy to lose control and get thrown off at an angle off the take off ramp. I hope they don't assume a straight trajectory is all they have to worry about
I honestly think they need it on the sides of the bottom of the take off as well. Imagine your tire slipping out and your body slips off the side of the ramp before the takeoff transition starts
@@Ivypoison23 It should almost be shaped like a half pipe to be safe and the end should be lipped to ensure you get launched towards the landing. LOL at the same time, it's a handful of the best riders on the planet and we've seen then do stuff even more crazy already. LOL it's really the circus element that's bugging us, isn;t it?
Watch BKs video they are changing the takeoff and lip and testing it again, hopefully they add a net and the weather holds and we get a 2024 Wales Hardline, but I think I do agree with you Dean.
As BK clearly isn’t going to win a WCDH this year, I cannot help but think these events are his main focus as he clearly is the boldest of the bunch…..ego is a peculiar motivation
It's making DH more like a stunt event. The two should be separate. And it pushes amateurs to try stupid stuff at a weekend with great personal risks that could be life changing injuries as a result.
First thought was they've gone too far with it. Don't doubt it's doable & the riders are the best of the best & are riding voluntarily but can also see a scenario where really serious injuries happen & it damages the reputation of the event.
Funny how you used the word "anxiety" in regards to watching the even or the event itself... Last year's Rampage I had the same feeling. I only wanted it to be over and that nobody got hurt... The infamous battleship hop on, hop off, Brendog's Canyon Gap, etc. This new jump in Wales, is not a jump, it's a stunt trick... Coming up short, or to the side or even way deep in that jump, will have massive consequences, and I dare say that safety nets won't do much... Yes, many people will say that the gap isn't that big and whatnot, but the exposure and the high likelyhood of a bit of wind, can literally throw you off in an instant. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love riding and also chase my own progression, but when it can literally end your life or your life as you know it, I'm sorry but I can't understand how that makes sense to anyone...
They need to consult with physicists on huge setups like this. They shouldn't have to be guessing how fast riders need to go and what size transition to use on the lip. All this could be calculated ahead of time. It's possible to build gnarlier setups like this and still keep things relatively safe. Jim's crash was completely avoidable if Red Bull had just done their physics homework.
Great take on that issue Dean! In my opinion this looks more like an event for stuntman and woman. I hope they got paid extra to try it without a safety net.
I think it's a bit annoying that the super techy sections at Hardline are being swapped for big jumps. Of course it's unfair to call it easy, but I think it lowers the technicality and real racing, and is instead just plain dangerous
Since its going to be changed and a net will be installed, I'm mostly worried about the pressure on participants who arent that proficient air mile collectors. You got invited, now you gotta either do it or not at all because there is obviously no way around it and its smack in the middle of the track. I kind of expect injuries before the race even... if they did it as an optional feature with a B-Line (but how?), I'd have a better feeling about it. Its just too big of a feature for a race event, this is something for Rampage and even there my gut has been in turmoil watching these ever bigger features without the pressure of a clock ticking away in Rain & Wind Central of Wales.
A) Rampage is not a race, hitting a jump at race pace is different than just hitting it. B) At Rampage, if you make a wickedly gnarly feature, you're the only person who has to ride it. Here, they're asking everyone to do this. C) I have an issue with G's love of exposure. Kind of like when Free Solo came out, it gets attention, but at a seemingly unnecessarily high price. The canyon gap is cool, but to put it in a race is reckless, and in my opinion, not a smart move.
@@zakkane2814 at the end of the day no one is making anyone do it and bk has always said you don't race the jumps on hardline the speed is the speed it's the bit's between them you race
Yes, but you'd be very unlucky to break your neck on a "normal" DH track. There doesn't seem to be much "calculation" gone into this feature. Anything goes wrong on takeoff or a wind gust and you're falling 70ft into rocks and scaffolding.
That jump is ridiculous. They already had a ridiculously long jump on the track.Bernie did it with no net no safety fence on the other side nothing. They are lucky he's the best jumper or one of the best jumpers in the world. Only someone like that could adjust to that weird take off. The odds are not good when one in three people don't make the jump. That type of jump is like an Evel Knievel jump. A one shot not a bunch of people having to get over it. Amen Dean, you are 💯 right. The risk reward is too high and to be honest they aren't getting paid enough by a long shot!
That feature has a completely different entry, take off, and ground beneath it Cant really compare them fairly imo Canyon gap at rampage maybe - but even that has a different lip and entry
It's absolutely trying to one up, this whole "built different thing" - personally I thought Maydena nailed it (although many disagree). They should have got someone in that knows how to build these jumps - it's a science / physics, this was so janky; a few freeriders on Insta stories very unipressed with what was built, could see it was wrong - one made the point of needing the firmer suspension for this jump, but that would compromise a "race" run. Yes the final Maydena jump was adjusted as the entry speed was marginal, but this looks miles off where it should be as a starting point. And needing someone to crash to add a net, really? For the DH riders, I'd like to see them out of this janky mess - Ronan's has about half the points he needs for a top ten overall, Charlie's on a come back, they need to stay fit - I worry if they didn't want to do it but not feel able to drop out, through an *assumed* peer or team pressure.
Dean, you are bang on the button. This isn't mountain biking at its purity. Evil Knievel stuff. There's better gnarly natural lines in that beautiful landscape. I bet it won't feature in the race. Use natural features. This isn't good for mountain biking.
I would argue that Redbull Rampage has much more of a scare and danger factor than Hardline, and are we going to forget the 72' canyon gap on the first Rampage course??? Also, no one is forcing riders to ride this event, no one's forcing BK to test the jump. Mountain bikers will always ride what they want to ride, whether it's dangerous or not. That's what makes the sport fun.
I understand your point but you also have to understand that riders will only ride what is available to them. Giving them access to such a gnarly and quite frankly poorly designed/tested jump, without a net is irresponsible.
Brendogs canyon gap last year is the biggest canyon gap ever at rampage.... That original would actually be EASIER than the new canyon at hard-line.....
I was anxious for pretty much the entirety of Bernards LSD, the last rampage gave me the same feeling, and there was a crash there I thought someone had a serious accident, they'd got lucky.
A bunch of stuntman oneuppers! They say Jimbo only got a concussion, which can very devastating in itself! The jumps and speeds that these guys already carry is gnarly enough!!
Good point about it being ugly. They obviously saw that a jump over that gorge would look incredible, but they've spoiled it with all the scaffolding. And now they've found it doesn’t work with only a week to go. They've messed up.
EH ? It's not on the DH world circuit because it's not a DH series race event and wasn't created to be. It was created as a one off boundary pushing event for the sport Shall we cancel Rampage, Darkfest etc because they're aren't 'proper' DH events Yeah, people can have their opinion but mountain biking isn't a one dimensional sport. That's a fact
This is a big attention grabbing feature, but these videos are from a testing day with a couple of very experienced riders and nobody was being forced to try it, these guys did it so that these can be refined to work better. And while I do hope they put a safety net in, don't forget that these guys do stuff like this on their own just to make content, Matt just jumped a house. So honestly I think this is safer than some of that, they are testing and refining it and hardline is very rider focused, I think if all the riders thought it was too dangerous it would get nixed from the course. Also, BK and Matt cleared it with no problem, so I think the biggest issue is fixing the lip.
a 66% percent success-rate isn't good enough for something with such a big downside if something goes wrong. After only 3 guys have hit it, 1 guy has already genuinely almost died. The odds of something going wrong for at least 1 out of the 20 or so riders over the weekend of practice and racing - not okay imo.
@@SakuraCacheI agree that it’s not ok right now but if you watched BK video they are headed back to fix the takeoff and he also mentioned about adding a catch net. I think too much is being made over a non finished feature that was tested by a very select group of people, and if you watch Matt’s video they were pondering it for an hour before BK did it.
To ask riders to test a canyon jump with no net and exposed scaffolding to crash into, only to realise it's too dangerous after Jimbo wipes out, and then decide to add a net, is just stupid... I think the race organisers have failed in how they safely test jumps. Nevertheless, if they can modify the feature so that it is safe, I think it should be included in the race, but they seriously need to rethink how they test out jumps.
I mean, we've already seen 3 people hit it. That's all we really wanted to see in the first place; it indulges the "what if" of the whole spectacle. Beyond that, it's basically like deciding to throw people off of it until someone dies. I certainly feel like that's a personal decision the riders can make for themselves... but since it's already been jumped, the initial shock value of the jump has been somewhat mitigated.
I think the changes to parts of the course were needed as it’s been the same for many years. That being said I agree that safety measures need to be in place such as the net on the canyon jump and adjusting the lip which is why we need a couple of experienced riders to test and find these faults. Dan planted himself on the backside of the on-off before the 90’s when he tested them. Keep the event gnarly to progress the sport but rider safety will always be paramount 🤘❤️🌈🕊️🌍
I typed out a comment on Pinkbike last night saying pretty much exactly what you said Dean (and then deleted it). I think you're spot on. Point one, they feel they have to one up Tasmania now. Point two, that thing is hideous and shouldn't be built from an aesthetic perspective. Point three, most importantly if riders of the calibre of BK are struggling to ride it in a non race situation then surely it's too sketchy to put in a race. Gnarly and sketchy aren't the same thing IMHO. Great summing up anyway Deanos, you pretty much hit the nail on the head.
I will start off with that I agree that this is extreme although you forgot the fact that rampage has sent guys to the hospital for weeks and what about the guy who was unable to walk for 6 years after a crash on a train gap with no train I also believe that this is beginning into the free ride world but they are making it better it has been confirmed.
Hi first time commenting on this channel so happy to see Jim walk away from his crash by the sounds of the. title I don’t think hardline has gone too far you could say the same thing about the legendary Canyon gap at rampage that is even gnarlier than this and that has no safety net And obviously like with any new feature or jump you don’t know what’s wrong until you test it first so you can find out what the problems are and then fix it afterwards and like someone sed in the comments no one has to jump this if they don’t want to
@@tomchamberlain4329 yeah I know it’s a race but What I am trying to say Even though the rampage Canyon gas is way older than the one at hardline how come there is no safety net at rampage but there is one at hardline considering both canyon gaps are roughly the same length don’t you think they should be a safety net at rampage it’s a way way more dangerous than a hardline
i think we MIGHT possibly be reading too much into this.Testing stuff this big there is always a chance of it going south just like with Dave in Tasmania , Gee himself in Rampage etc etc. Although no one wants to see someone obliterate themselves its the reality of things. Some changes and it will be all good. Just like any other huge jump with the added factor that there is a ravine below.
I guess at this level I don't understand how they could make a kicker ramp the bucks riders. Who designed and built the stupid thing? The speeds are extremely high and the transition is too quick...and why the flat? It's a terrible design and even the riders should be experienced enough to look at it and say no way.
Protocols are so weak in MTB. The lips on similar distance jumps (further down the course) are built very differently. Why wasnt this structure tested before it got erected over a canyon? Why was there no net for the test event? Heck, I believe there was not even medical assistance on site for the testing. There’s a way to make it happen, but that aint it. This thing cannot be RACED!
I think Red Bull should just get Taylor Swift and Lizzo on bikes... end of story. And Dean you love it it gives you something to talk about and that’s what you do now.
It's not the riders fault that the production companies of these sports are desensitised to the crazy stuff/speeds they ride at. I've ridden for 30 years, as a target audience (which must be ALL mtbers), we can fully appreciate how nuts a course like Hardline is. Do we need to see riders possibly getting killed just so as I can sit eating crisps on a Sunday, to appreciate the skill of the sport?! These guys are incredible athletes, it was an uncomfortable watch, but understand they want to elevate the course/event, especially now they have changed direction from the DH World Cups. More objectively speaking, and perhaps more constructively - this is a race against the clock. They aren't rewarding riders for jumping/creativity and bravery/risk like something like rampage. A jump like that has very little impact on timing, every rider will hit and clear it point to point in a similar time. Therefore, it becomes of very little significance in terms of ranking at the bottom of the hill. For me, that shows lack of regard for what the riders are being put through. If you want to put things in perspective, maybe send a really really good normal rider down these courses, maybe between every 10/20 pros, give them at least a months practise, and lets compare them to these top riders. Ha. If the riders want it to be like this to progress, then I fully support it. If it's purely about shock and awe, and getting clicks, then I'd rather it got in the sea thank you very much. I'd bet that the whole returning audience is mtbers who appreciate a slippery rock face just as much as they appreciate a huge double lip to lip. Thanks for opening up the chat Dean. It's a dialogue worth having, regardless of the outcome. Just to show love and respect to these guys. Incredible.
For me the more offensive then the size of the gaps was how janky and out of place those scaffolds were - a true eye-sore, more belonging in a post-apocalyptic Hardline that were held at some delapidated factory, rather than pristine green and lush landscapes.... About crashes - people also crash heavily at your run-off-the-mill WC rounds, so it is hard to judge just by example of three guys having attempted it. The pressure at the Hardline to go more and more crazy has been apparent. Today's meedia is short of resuming true gladiator fights where the blood pours and bones crush and the participants get memed for life and killed....
People have been saying the same (too risky) about Rampage for some time. Same could be said for eg DarkFest. There is a question about how brands & marketing (in this case, RB, Monster) are getting events into this position. In the end, it is driven by the consumer. Us. WE are the ones demanding riders put life and limb on the line - a kinda "Hunger Games" environment. If we didn't, the events wouldn't go this way. Simple. On the other hand, riders today are (reasonably) safely doing sh1t that was unimaginable just a few years ago. The same goes in eg freediving. Real risk. And athletes have an inherent drive to outdo themselves (if not everyone else). Perhaps it is what it is and we'll see the specialisation more distinctly, ie the top WC riders unlikely to compete in Rampage/Hardline/DarkFest due to sponsorship priorities, a 2nd tier of WC riders doing both (BK, Erlangsen et al) and some "Freeracers" focusing on the sketchy events (Brendog, Jono, other ex WC racers, etc). Despite our lust for insanity, I'd like to believe we don't REALLY want to see anyone hurt - especially those of us who have had some decent injuries. But we won't find the limits if we don't push.
I think my opinion on this matter is irrelevant. What's important is what the riders say. But you're making absolutely valid points. One must ask themselves: Is it called Red Bull HARDLINE or Red Bull RISKY LINE?
Seriously whose idea was this feature? I agree %100 that Hardline has always been about biking down difficult terrain. Not scaffolding. Imagine with all of this hype and question about this jump’s safety, if someone does miss the landing and falls down that cliff and gets seriously injured or possibly killed?? What then? I mean come on now…I watched Matt’s video and there’s shots of him peeking over the edge of that jump, there is no safe miss. It’s almost a guarantee if someone doesn’t make it they’re going to get severely injured..sounds like crazy lawsuits, and bad injuries and not worth it.
"Progressing the sport" lol once someone dies the sport will be set back much more, not just form a rider perspective but from a RedBull/marketing perspective because you will have had a live broadcasted event where your viewers have seen someone freaking DIE. Related hot take: I don't want a Hardline series from Red Bull. I'm totally down to see some of the WC pros tackle a normal WC track with Rob and Elliot commentating.
This Jump is just stupid for me. Badly build with way too much compression and a too Short lip wich makes it unnescessary dangerous. And them there are the astethics for mich wich are no more toben. they don’t use the terrain in a good way anymore. They Build Framework in beautiful Nature wich Looks disgusting just to Go further and more Crazy. Really hate what they are Doing. If this Stays…i don’t watch hardline
Different sport but this kind of reminds me of the circumstances of Dan Wheldon's death in Indy car in 2011. The organisers and sponsors kept pushing for more and more "exciting" race conditions and didn't realise they'd pushed it too far until it was too late. That's how tragedies happen. With this, it's a little different because we can all see it. It is a f***ing cool jump tho, there's no doubt about that, but seeing the vids of the first 3 to try it.....yeah this is a little over the line for me. POeople saying "they do bigger crazier stuff in rampage"....errrm yeah but they also aren't racing.
Brendan was ROBBED! The contrast between the beauty of the landscape and the jarringly ugly scaffolding is no better clue of the incompatibility of such vision for the sport. That said, Brendan’s canyon flip didn’t have a net either and is arguably far far sketchier, yet didn’t garner this level of concern….but, as a 56 year old 3’ to flat max mountain biker, this is literally a bridge too far. Is death the next event requirement?
Downhill is proper jump (long or short that's not the issue), speed through the rocks and roots, offcamber and steep track, ripping berms. All these things against time! Hardline is Downhill race in some part and Nitro Circus in other. Next year we will see Ryan Williams doing Free WIlly on scooter thruogh canyon gap 🤣🤣
Someone should tell/explain to Dean what is the meaning of Hard, and why this event is invitation only... girls like Dean have been screaming about RB Rampage for more than decade now ...and Yes it's not your UCI bikepark DH worldCup weekend
It's incredibly stupid to even test it like that. Idk why you would risk it as an organiser. Even with fixes it's probably too far and I would have preferred less scaffolding. Surely you could have found a scenic place to jump the river without building THAT. Difficult to call it a race if you're just happy to judge speed and survive.
@@prettyjohnshill76yeah cause those guys are riding something they have built and tested for weeks. Another thing about those two events, they aren’t race events, they are free style events. Which is exactly where this hardline jump needs to go, in a freestyle comp
@@Ivypoison23 at rampage they have 3 days of digging and 4 days of test riding and digging, riders at hardline have a few days of practice without the fatigue of digging in the desert and a whole group of riders helping each other get over the features. Essentially on paper making hardline “easier” if you can use such a word lol
It's Downhill not Downkill. Sure it's Gee but that lip is way wrong. Question is why someone ok'd that design to begin with. Just eyeballing it that's clear. I love gnarly but let's keep our riders alive and riding another day. Those mats down below ain't going to do shit. You'll land on them then fall of over the side anyway.I'm much more for big gnarly natural features. We can't expect everyone to suddenly become stunt men and women.
Davin Mcmillan had arguably worse injuries while guinnea pigging the canyon gap in Tasmania before they reworked it. I'm sure that jump would've been just as loud and controversial if they'd caught the crash on video. Shit's gnarly. Sadly it seems like crashing and misfortunes get more views and are more effective marketing tools than people riding clean and staying unharmed.
And the guy with the least experience of the 3 that tried it thinks it's easier than multiple other parts of the trail that have been done in years past and will be done again this year. Fact is it LOOKED a lot worse than it is. Yes if you went short it was bad. It almost always is. And I'd rather drop on that scaffold then send my head into a knife edge crop up after dropping one of those tight 20ft rock drops at full speed any day. Also... All 3 guys who rode it AND anyone who's ever rode big stuff knows your math is backwards. They had too much lip. Listen to the videos all 3 say it. And Matt's been running too soft. Not too stiff.
The jump itself isn’t so extreme (other than the glaring omission of safety nets over the canyon), but I don’t understand why they were surprised the kicker was too abrupt. All they had to do was build a 1:1 scale replica in a safe place to test the speed, take-off and landings thoroughly (and maybe use an inflatable landing ramp at first), before building the final version on the side of the mountain that they would then know would work safely.
I mean 2022 BK crashed while jumping the massive dirt jumps and they changed the lip and everything was fine. That's why they do testing and make sure everything is safe to ride. Unfortunately Jimbo took the hit this year and luckily he's ok.
I’m on the fence. It’s progression. But it also takes an iconic spot and ruins that nature feel. It’s an epic jump over a picturesque creek! It has consequences. All the progressive riders will want to hit that jump!!!! That all bein said....... Bring on the Progression and the Gnar!
Here’s the thing, I totally get what they are doing and I’m all about progressing the sport. I watched the videos and I was stoked but at the same time wondering, why are they testing this close to the event? This isn’t a last minute thing here. You don’t wing it on something like this. It’s 2024. We have civil engineers who can tell you the exact speed and exact transition for a jump. Why in the hell is this not happening? These energy drink companies make more money than any person on this thread will ever see in their lives. It’s ridiculous that they would put the riders lives in danger for this. And I love what the Athertons and Kerr have done for the sport. This is a disservice to them. Give them the budget. Do it right. Make it safe. This is just as stupid as concrete floors on supercross tracks.
One thing is the net. The images of this jump were around since quite some time. So they would have had plenty of time to put up the net. I honestly think, the net should have been put up the moment the main structure was built. For guinea pigging that jump without one, only one word comes to my mind: stupid. In regards to the general quality of the jump: don't know their process. But i know that big snowparks actually calculate their jumps and measure their builds (sometimes even with LIDAR etc.) to ensure the speeds and angles match up with what they calculated. This way they can make sure that the speeds are high enough that people make it into the landing and the landings are long enough that people who over shoot or come in a bit too slow don't immediately land completely flat or people get kicked weird and crash due to too tight radii. My feeling is, that it was maybe built on current experience, but that experience didn't match what they were trying to build. So maybe a calculation or two wouldn't hurt for such a jump. There are things like e.g. going from flat into a even radius of a circle ends up having an infinite impulse if the system is perfectly stiff. On a MTB this will be dealt with by the rider and the suspension, hence chances are high that you get compressed and bucket weird. To mitigate that, one should use e.g. an involute or an Euler spiral which reduces the radius of a section gradually and therefor you don't get bucked as easy.
If everyone makes it then it’ll will be the best thing ever and fist bumps all round, just takes one rider to not make it and Redbull will be slammed with a load of bad publicity and sadly MTB will be in the mainstream media for all the wrong reasons! Bit strange they’re saying they’ll put a net under it now after someone nearly ends themselves on it🤦🏼♂️ net first then test it!🤷🏼♂️
You summed it up nicely, it's gone a bit too far. Isn't Hardline supposed to be an event pushing the limit of racing instead of being Rampage 2.0? That doesn't look like a feature any world cup rider with any chance at the overall would want to risk their whole World Cup season to hit. On another safety note, isn't it a little huberistic to build a jump that large with the consequences it has at a location that is notoriously windy?
This jump gives me the same vibes as rampage. And I love/hate watching rampage for this reason it's thrilling to watch and it's insane to see these jumps being jumped. But I don't want to see the crash or hear of a crash the day after you know. Jumps like thisthough they could use some maths and science and have the perfect shaped ramp made up, some engineer could even figure out the speed required and create a run in that uniforms the speed making it safer. But I feel like these jumps are just eyeballed and that's terrifying. Or hey maybe they get plans from an engineer who does the maths about speed and all that. Hell I bet someone even has a program that can run the simulations for different sized and shaped ramps. Take a level of danger and uncertainty out of the testing process. Long winded I know, 😅
Skateboarders and surfers having been doing way gnarlier stuff than this for decades. Not sure why fans care. The riders decide this, not those on PB or YT.
Rampage is way moore dangerous, doing some 360 and backflip on the edge of some pretty huge cliff, Hardline is sick, crazy use every words but Rampage is something else, good to see Jim ok 🤘
Hmm i get what your saying, but this wasn't some brainwave of media guys in redbull office thinking "yeah this will be ace - clueless" this has come from rider input, if the riders reckon they can do it, they a good chance redbull can make that happen 🤷♂️ its not called Hardline for no reason
It was a bit disappointing to read all of the negative feedback this feature has produced. The ramp is there to push the limits. We should applaud this in admiration and not feel like riders are being forced to do it. I mean its called “Hardline” for crying out loud! Its not “ Funline” or Rideable Line” or “Safeline” or whatever you want this feature to be. Can it be ridden? Its been proven that it can. So stop the wussroddary!
Is it a downhill race or a stunt course? I know Hardline walks this line, but considering what happened to Goldstone in Tasmania (granted not on any of the big structures), going bigger and more dangerous will keep the top riders away. By top riders, I just mean downhill racers, which is what interests me. I know there are many other folks that would be backflipping this, but that is a different sport. Not racing.
i think anyone would totally agree if its the world cups but its Hardline, there's no step up from what it offers. It is also an event beyond mountain biking, many people watch who aren't really into MTB because its not pushing the limits of just biking, but also the limits of humans in general. Ontop of this, Hardline is more than just a race, i feel people have seen it as just another race with bigger jumps. if it goes ahead, people should watch closely this year...
and that's why they called it a test. BK mentioned fixing the ramp. i'm all for keeping it, it's not even the longest one on the course. I'm not a ramp builder but...if you know an average riders weight and the length of the gap, it should be easy to figure out what the takeoff and landing ramp should be shaped like (with options of course due to speed and desired loft), don't these builders use that info on these types of ramps? it's high school physics?
Yeah gotta change that lip that things cooooked. I’m with you too, it’s a big ugly turd on an otherwise beautiful hill. 🔥🔥🔥 But yo be fair I sorta want to watch hardline now 😂
I disagree with most of the things you said here.. BK latest video answers a lot of the "issues." Just a wildly negative outlook. Old school freeriders were going this hard to sell 1000 dvd/tapes... dont act like this is "because of redbull"
Well hardline has come to a point where the pro riders "have" to push them selves, its that kind of era. Its insane but holy crap it earns so much PR. Sadly the wrong kind.. DH is really fun but this is just insane..
I think they have rushed it - they should definitely do the jump, but take a few years to build a proper structure with heaps of safety features built into the structure. A well build structure with chunky wooden beams would sit so much nicer into the landscape too. It would be an investment in the future of the race. This scaffold thing just screams of rushing and cost-cutting.
what about jackson goldstone crashing and injuring homself at Tasmania and then couldn't compete in DH. I can totally see pro DH's not participating in Hardline going forward with these crazy features.
Its fine for the level these guys and girls are at...it does look a bit too steep..and i think a net is a fair idea...it would still be a huge dodgy gap even with a net..but would avoid a death..but people die landing funny of 3 meter gaps..all the time....🤙 As Al Pacino once said..you can get killed walkin yer doggy 😂😂
Now everyone agrees its dangerous and needs a net, its worth thinking of what a safety net looks like. I reckon the only way to save riders who get bucked, fall short or get off line is a net from lip to landing and built out wide enough to save any bouncing off it. If this sounds lame then I reckon like Deano says, scrap it and burn it at the afterparty. Don't wanna see anyone die for my clicks.
At the end of BKs video, he said they were putting up a big net on that jump….and that they were changing the lip on the takeoff
No reason to not have a safety net, it was irresponsible to hit it without one IMO.
Taking precautions against literal death does not make it any less "gnarly"
I just missed that. Thanks for clarifying 👍
why riding this kind of stuff without a net ?
The main riders of Hardline are used to these speeds and distances, bk has tons of videos landing 90ft jumps, so for them it's just another day at work. With all the NEW riders, they need the net. @@rarelycomments
I think the net was part of the original plan, jumping without was a dig for attention. Hence why the two biggest tubers in the race were there to do the test jump.
7:20 "it's not even like you're excited to watch, it's almost like your anxious to watch."
Perfectly stated. I love Hardline, it's by far my favorite sporting event of the year, but I'm not trying to watch Evil Knievel.
It’s all about spectacle, but that’s not worth harming the riders. Where could they go next? Loops?
I think when you get a professional rider like Dean questioning the validity of a feature like that, not even for himself, but as he says for his friends literally risking their lives. You have to think it's gone too far. I'm all up for an exciting course to watch as a punter but not at the potential expense of the riders participating. I mean we only need to look at the various Rampage examples of when it's gone wrong to know where we should realistically be putting limits on not only what's possible but whats's relatively safe. Clicks, views, accolades etc should never be at the expense of the participants.
Jim had concussion but Tarney (or however you spell her name) spent almost a season out with her concussion and Matt Jones himself got concussed so badly once his doctor said he shouldn't jump at all for ages!
And this is the least worst outcome for Jim?
Also, most jumps out there are dirt takeoff's and landings, so when they go wrong the rider is, at least, landing and rag dolling on dirt - wooden ramps don't give much!
I also believe that in Downhill the land itself should be worked with and leave all the wooden jumps to the Dirt Jumpers - although Hardline has become a cross between the very best of a combination of the disciplines, so does have to go further! But I wish it would include more Tech on the course - all tracks/courses these days just seem to be going for bigger and bigger jumps!? The Atherton's did this, of course, on their 'slabs' line - using what was there in the ground already to good effect!
Here, they've left out the top forest completely, which for me is a shame!
They also missed a trick to team up with the team that brought Go Below to Wales - a whole load of sprung netting in an underground cave, who could've set up a perfectly good safety net system and even lit the 'canyon' for a greater dramatic effect!
I worry that in a few days, someone will come off very worse for wear when they get the takeoff wrong or worse still if they don't have enough speed - imagine them throwing the bike away and being ejected away sideways from a perhaps hastily erected safety net!
You spoke the truth man agree 100%
With some mods I think the riders can clear it safely.
its not a single atlete that risks his life for "red bull" and red bull should see this. is a race everyone should be able to survive this evertime going down the hill.
Lip is a bit much but overall the feature is gnarly not not as gnarly as features hit on motocross bikes like the arc d triomphe jump or even Josh bender jaw drop one of the OG freeride sends
The new features looked hardcore enough, then we see this............. I don't think th emajority of the field would want to risk their season based on this specific jump. I suspect team managers will basically ban their Pro riders participating. Look what has happened to Jackson, his 2024 season was over before it started. Maybe, this needs to be an event for riders with the skillset to compete however don't have a season that could end prematurely?
gee does this all the time
These are proffesional riders that know their limits, if they don't want to ride it they don't have to.
Why is there so much hate for Hardline this year? This was testing and revision are being made........Redbull Rampage is just as sketch so why the hate?
I think it's gone a bit too far... It's not a matter of changing the lip or adding nets. The feature can go very wrong in so many unpredictable ways. Is this even the direction we want the sport to go?
I don't now maybe I'm just getting old.
exactly my thoughts, even something like a partially flat rear before dropping into the run-in could mean goodnight, basically.
Dude was fine. Went to hospital and only had a knock on the head. He's fine now.
Clad the scaffolding with wood panels and velcro. Put the riders in velcro suits as well. So if they dont make it over the gap they stick to the wall and can be plucked off later.
Nah, just kidding. I totally feel your words, Dean. How many red bull athletes died over the years bc of exceeding their limits...?
Some one will back flip it by the end of the week
ask isted to backflip it
lets GOOOO!
Unfortunately I don’t think he’s riding he doesn’t do down hill which is technically what this race is but it would be cool!!!
Well matt Jones isnt a hardcore racer either
@@AlexKoehn47 yeah but Matt Jones is sponsored by Redbull and has some DH experience, his twin brother races the world cups and also is racing Hardline. Just because Tom can jump really big gaps doesn’t mean he can ride down hardline, it’s a mentally steep track
Ok I worded that wrong
Really since matt Jones isnt a hardcore racer either, he doesn't be long there...but RedBull hard-line hasn't gotten to the point of officialality, compared to ICU races. So he still has some room to race a track that's meant for hardcore racers.
At the end of BK latest LSD he said they are going to put a safety net on the jump
cool news. did not watch it still
Not having safety net in place is a dick move in a pissing contests that is much my riskier if the is even a slight breeze . The wind measured at the ramps is not always indicative of that over the ravine. Anyway I think they Need hammock net at both ends and the side. Bernard nearly missed the landing. A net between the ramps prob wouldn’t have saved him.
Locking the stable door after the horse has bolted springs to mind
The safety net will be entirely inadequate, is my hunch
Both BK and Matt said it was too lippy, they will modify the lip and it will be better and safer.
if u watch BKS jump closeley he almost died......he barely could get the bike straight after getting compressed to the left......almost landen in nowhere land.......tahnk god it didnt happen
@@Proranis Yeah, he got so compressed on takeoff, he got launched to the left and almost missed the landing.
You are right, its a very ugly jump and looks out of place compared to the rest of the course.
However, notwithstanding that the ramp radius profile needs correcting, technically its not a hard jump, if this was 2 feet off the ground, nobody would think twice about a 70 foot jump.
Both BK and MJ jumped it successfully at the first attempt, and MJ jumped it really well, if a little long. Jim got kicked by the lip, knew he had to ditch the bike, and had a lucky landing, but he still made the distance ok 🙂. Glad his injuries were minor.
Its the consequences of making a mistake that really make this a serious feature. If you are short, you are probably 98% dead.
I do think a safety net is required, and crash mats/air bags at the far end because dropping into a crash net would be ok, but the forward speed while accelerating downwards hitting the scaffolding it what will kill you.
I mean you could also look at the 100+ foot jump at the bottom of the course, and if you come up short on that you will just plough into the hill and with all that forward speed you will be seriously hurt. So where do you draw the line.
I am not sure that all the HL riders will want to run that jump and roll the dice with the consequences and you are right I am not sure all the teams will be on board with potentially putting their DH riders at risk so early in the season, but there is no chicken run is there, so how will they score it. Will be interesting to see if they leave it in.
Look at Rampage and Brendog, he is one if not the best canyon jumper in the world, he did 2 features never done before, both would have killed him if he got it wrong and the run in to that canyon gap was just mental, he even had to hop over another guys run on the way in. How many other people would ever attempt that canyon gap.
Cant wait for the weekend.
Surely you'd want netting installed for testing when you're unsure on speed etc.
Extreme sport requires extreme actions, these guys ain’t pussys and don’t think to much about it.
nah, they are gonna do the opposite. no net during testing. net during riding. hmmm
The safety net needs to be at least 80 feet wide. It would be so easy to lose control and get thrown off at an angle off the take off ramp. I hope they don't assume a straight trajectory is all they have to worry about
Agree with this one
agreed
I honestly think they need it on the sides of the bottom of the take off as well. Imagine your tire slipping out and your body slips off the side of the ramp before the takeoff transition starts
@@Ivypoison23 It should almost be shaped like a half pipe to be safe and the end should be lipped to ensure you get launched towards the landing. LOL at the same time, it's a handful of the best riders on the planet and we've seen then do stuff even more crazy already. LOL it's really the circus element that's bugging us, isn;t it?
Easy for who?
Watch BKs video they are changing the takeoff and lip and testing it again, hopefully they add a net and the weather holds and we get a 2024 Wales Hardline, but I think I do agree with you Dean.
As BK clearly isn’t going to win a WCDH this year, I cannot help but think these events are his main focus as he clearly is the boldest of the bunch…..ego is a peculiar motivation
It's making DH more like a stunt event. The two should be separate. And it pushes amateurs to try stupid stuff at a weekend with great personal risks that could be life changing injuries as a result.
Grow a pair
@@LSR1980grow up.
First thought was they've gone too far with it. Don't doubt it's doable & the riders are the best of the best & are riding voluntarily but can also see a scenario where really serious injuries happen & it damages the reputation of the event.
i think this is the best hardline ever! (positive engagement)
hahah yes!!
Funny how you used the word "anxiety" in regards to watching the even or the event itself... Last year's Rampage I had the same feeling. I only wanted it to be over and that nobody got hurt... The infamous battleship hop on, hop off, Brendog's Canyon Gap, etc.
This new jump in Wales, is not a jump, it's a stunt trick... Coming up short, or to the side or even way deep in that jump, will have massive consequences, and I dare say that safety nets won't do much... Yes, many people will say that the gap isn't that big and whatnot, but the exposure and the high likelyhood of a bit of wind, can literally throw you off in an instant.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love riding and also chase my own progression, but when it can literally end your life or your life as you know it, I'm sorry but I can't understand how that makes sense to anyone...
They need to consult with physicists on huge setups like this. They shouldn't have to be guessing how fast riders need to go and what size transition to use on the lip. All this could be calculated ahead of time. It's possible to build gnarlier setups like this and still keep things relatively safe. Jim's crash was completely avoidable if Red Bull had just done their physics homework.
Red Bull has phyisicists as seen in Fabio Wibmers behind the scenes video from Kitzbühel. I don't know if they were involved in this though.
Great take on that issue Dean! In my opinion this looks more like an event for stuntman and woman. I hope they got paid extra to try it without a safety net.
I think it's a bit annoying that the super techy sections at Hardline are being swapped for big jumps. Of course it's unfair to call it easy, but I think it lowers the technicality and real racing, and is instead just plain dangerous
Did you watch any video about the whoöe track? The new top part up to these two built gap features are super rocky, techy, gnarly.
Since its going to be changed and a net will be installed, I'm mostly worried about the pressure on participants who arent that proficient air mile collectors. You got invited, now you gotta either do it or not at all because there is obviously no way around it and its smack in the middle of the track. I kind of expect injuries before the race even... if they did it as an optional feature with a B-Line (but how?), I'd have a better feeling about it. Its just too big of a feature for a race event, this is something for Rampage and even there my gut has been in turmoil watching these ever bigger features without the pressure of a clock ticking away in Rain & Wind Central of Wales.
Any DH racer could crash and die on any course at any event.
It's all about calculated risks.
This doesn't appear any sketchier than Rampage.
A) Rampage is not a race, hitting a jump at race pace is different than just hitting it. B) At Rampage, if you make a wickedly gnarly feature, you're the only person who has to ride it. Here, they're asking everyone to do this. C) I have an issue with G's love of exposure. Kind of like when Free Solo came out, it gets attention, but at a seemingly unnecessarily high price. The canyon gap is cool, but to put it in a race is reckless, and in my opinion, not a smart move.
@@zakkane2814 at the end of the day no one is making anyone do it and bk has always said you don't race the jumps on hardline the speed is the speed it's the bit's between them you race
Yes, but you'd be very unlucky to break your neck on a "normal" DH track.
There doesn't seem to be much "calculation" gone into this feature.
Anything goes wrong on takeoff or a wind gust and you're falling 70ft into rocks and scaffolding.
Rampage is not a race though. And remember who you're commenting to. Dean had a serious injury last year.
@@aaavellone know exactly who Dean is. And yes it's "timed" but it's hardly a race. Anyway it is also only an opinion 🤙
That jump is ridiculous. They already had a ridiculously long jump on the track.Bernie did it with no net no safety fence on the other side nothing. They are lucky he's the best jumper or one of the best jumpers in the world. Only someone like that could adjust to that weird take off. The odds are not good when one in three people don't make the jump. That type of jump is like an Evel Knievel jump. A one shot not a bunch of people having to get over it. Amen Dean, you are 💯 right. The risk reward is too high and to be honest they aren't getting paid enough by a long shot!
Darkfest Tom did a 120foot back flip.
I think this jump will change by race day. Can't wait to see. Russell😎
That feature has a completely different entry, take off, and ground beneath it
Cant really compare them fairly imo
Canyon gap at rampage maybe - but even that has a different lip and entry
It's absolutely trying to one up, this whole "built different thing" - personally I thought Maydena nailed it (although many disagree). They should have got someone in that knows how to build these jumps - it's a science / physics, this was so janky; a few freeriders on Insta stories very unipressed with what was built, could see it was wrong - one made the point of needing the firmer suspension for this jump, but that would compromise a "race" run. Yes the final Maydena jump was adjusted as the entry speed was marginal, but this looks miles off where it should be as a starting point. And needing someone to crash to add a net, really?
For the DH riders, I'd like to see them out of this janky mess - Ronan's has about half the points he needs for a top ten overall, Charlie's on a come back, they need to stay fit - I worry if they didn't want to do it but not feel able to drop out, through an *assumed* peer or team pressure.
Dean, you are bang on the button. This isn't mountain biking at its purity. Evil Knievel stuff. There's better gnarly natural lines in that beautiful landscape. I bet it won't feature in the race. Use natural features. This isn't good for mountain biking.
So canyon gaps are a big deal now? Someone should tell the rampage judges #brendogforthewin
I would argue that Redbull Rampage has much more of a scare and danger factor than Hardline, and are we going to forget the 72' canyon gap on the first Rampage course??? Also, no one is forcing riders to ride this event, no one's forcing BK to test the jump. Mountain bikers will always ride what they want to ride, whether it's dangerous or not. That's what makes the sport fun.
The scenery makes it more dramatic, the gaps are bigger at hardline I believe
I understand your point but you also have to understand that riders will only ride what is available to them. Giving them access to such a gnarly and quite frankly poorly designed/tested jump, without a net is irresponsible.
Rampage is way more gnarly than Hardline.
Brendogs canyon gap last year is the biggest canyon gap ever at rampage.... That original would actually be EASIER than the new canyon at hard-line.....
I was anxious for pretty much the entirety of Bernards LSD, the last rampage gave me the same feeling, and there was a crash there I thought someone had a serious accident, they'd got lucky.
A bunch of stuntman oneuppers! They say Jimbo only got a concussion, which can very devastating in itself! The jumps and speeds that these guys already carry is gnarly enough!!
"only"
Still could be a career ending injury, or worse later in life
Helmet technology has improved along the way.
Good point about it being ugly. They obviously saw that a jump over that gorge would look incredible, but they've spoiled it with all the scaffolding. And now they've found it doesn’t work with only a week to go. They've messed up.
EH ? It's not on the DH world circuit because it's not a DH series race event and wasn't created to be. It was created as a one off boundary pushing event for the sport
Shall we cancel Rampage, Darkfest etc because they're aren't 'proper' DH events
Yeah, people can have their opinion but mountain biking isn't a one dimensional sport. That's a fact
Preach it brother
What's up @dean..... No invite??? SMH!!!
Why is there no footage of what you are talking about?
I with you I think Dean. It just feels like a serious accident waiting to happen.
This is a big attention grabbing feature, but these videos are from a testing day with a couple of very experienced riders and nobody was being forced to try it, these guys did it so that these can be refined to work better. And while I do hope they put a safety net in, don't forget that these guys do stuff like this on their own just to make content, Matt just jumped a house. So honestly I think this is safer than some of that, they are testing and refining it and hardline is very rider focused, I think if all the riders thought it was too dangerous it would get nixed from the course. Also, BK and Matt cleared it with no problem, so I think the biggest issue is fixing the lip.
a 66% percent success-rate isn't good enough for something with such a big downside if something goes wrong. After only 3 guys have hit it, 1 guy has already genuinely almost died. The odds of something going wrong for at least 1 out of the 20 or so riders over the weekend of practice and racing - not okay imo.
@@SakuraCacheI agree that it’s not ok right now but if you watched BK video they are headed back to fix the takeoff and he also mentioned about adding a catch net. I think too much is being made over a non finished feature that was tested by a very select group of people, and if you watch Matt’s video they were pondering it for an hour before BK did it.
Its Hardline not hard XC !
No saftey net's in WRC or isle of man TT !
To ask riders to test a canyon jump with no net and exposed scaffolding to crash into, only to realise it's too dangerous after Jimbo wipes out, and then decide to add a net, is just stupid... I think the race organisers have failed in how they safely test jumps. Nevertheless, if they can modify the feature so that it is safe, I think it should be included in the race, but they seriously need to rethink how they test out jumps.
Great video and well said. The exposure is so gnarly, genuinely worried about the feature.
I mean, we've already seen 3 people hit it. That's all we really wanted to see in the first place; it indulges the "what if" of the whole spectacle. Beyond that, it's basically like deciding to throw people off of it until someone dies. I certainly feel like that's a personal decision the riders can make for themselves... but since it's already been jumped, the initial shock value of the jump has been somewhat mitigated.
Couldn’t agree more
That's pretty much RedBulls MO.
I think the changes to parts of the course were needed as it’s been the same for many years. That being said I agree that safety measures need to be in place such as the net on the canyon jump and adjusting the lip which is why we need a couple of experienced riders to test and find these faults. Dan planted himself on the backside of the on-off before the 90’s when he tested them. Keep the event gnarly to progress the sport but rider safety will always be paramount 🤘❤️🌈🕊️🌍
Rainbow emoji ?
🤣👍🤡
@@Voting-does-nothing sending love to all and peace around the world
@@Voting-does-nothing Scared of rainbows?
The same people that are saying its gone too far are complaining the World Cups are too bike parky and dumbed down. Can't win.
I typed out a comment on Pinkbike last night saying pretty much exactly what you said Dean (and then deleted it). I think you're spot on.
Point one, they feel they have to one up Tasmania now.
Point two, that thing is hideous and shouldn't be built from an aesthetic perspective.
Point three, most importantly if riders of the calibre of BK are struggling to ride it in a non race situation then surely it's too sketchy to put in a race. Gnarly and sketchy aren't the same thing IMHO.
Great summing up anyway Deanos, you pretty much hit the nail on the head.
@@dezzydiamond7121 This.
I will start off with that I agree that this is extreme although you forgot the fact that rampage has sent guys to the hospital for weeks and what about the guy who was unable to walk for 6 years after a crash on a train gap with no train I also believe that this is beginning into the free ride world but they are making it better it has been confirmed.
Hi first time commenting on this channel so happy to see Jim walk away from his crash by the sounds of the. title I don’t think hardline has gone too far you could say the same thing about the legendary Canyon gap at rampage that is even gnarlier than this and that has no safety net
And obviously like with any new feature or jump you don’t know what’s wrong until you test it first so you can find out what the problems are and then fix it afterwards and like someone sed in the comments no one has to jump this if they don’t want to
The difference is Rampage isn't a race. Completely different, this is far sketchier
@@tomchamberlain4329 yeah I know it’s a race but What I am trying to say Even though the rampage Canyon gas is way older than the one at hardline how come there is no safety net at rampage but there is one at hardline considering both canyon gaps are roughly the same length don’t you think they should be a safety net at rampage it’s a way way more dangerous than a hardline
i think we MIGHT possibly be reading too much into this.Testing stuff this big there is always a chance of it going south just like with Dave in Tasmania , Gee himself in Rampage etc etc. Although no one wants to see someone obliterate themselves its the reality of things. Some changes and it will be all good. Just like any other huge jump with the added factor that there is a ravine below.
I guess at this level I don't understand how they could make a kicker ramp the bucks riders. Who designed and built the stupid thing? The speeds are extremely high and the transition is too quick...and why the flat?
It's a terrible design and even the riders should be experienced enough to look at it and say no way.
Protocols are so weak in MTB. The lips on similar distance jumps (further down the course) are built very differently. Why wasnt this structure tested before it got erected over a canyon? Why was there no net for the test event? Heck, I believe there was not even medical assistance on site for the testing.
There’s a way to make it happen, but that aint it. This thing cannot be RACED!
If you dont have the resources to make it relatively safe (ie predictable), dont do it.
I think Red Bull should just get Taylor Swift and Lizzo on bikes... end of story. And Dean you love it it gives you something to talk about and that’s what you do now.
It's not the riders fault that the production companies of these sports are desensitised to the crazy stuff/speeds they ride at. I've ridden for 30 years, as a target audience (which must be ALL mtbers), we can fully appreciate how nuts a course like Hardline is. Do we need to see riders possibly getting killed just so as I can sit eating crisps on a Sunday, to appreciate the skill of the sport?! These guys are incredible athletes, it was an uncomfortable watch, but understand they want to elevate the course/event, especially now they have changed direction from the DH World Cups.
More objectively speaking, and perhaps more constructively - this is a race against the clock. They aren't rewarding riders for jumping/creativity and bravery/risk like something like rampage. A jump like that has very little impact on timing, every rider will hit and clear it point to point in a similar time. Therefore, it becomes of very little significance in terms of ranking at the bottom of the hill. For me, that shows lack of regard for what the riders are being put through. If you want to put things in perspective, maybe send a really really good normal rider down these courses, maybe between every 10/20 pros, give them at least a months practise, and lets compare them to these top riders. Ha.
If the riders want it to be like this to progress, then I fully support it. If it's purely about shock and awe, and getting clicks, then I'd rather it got in the sea thank you very much. I'd bet that the whole returning audience is mtbers who appreciate a slippery rock face just as much as they appreciate a huge double lip to lip.
Thanks for opening up the chat Dean. It's a dialogue worth having, regardless of the outcome. Just to show love and respect to these guys. Incredible.
People said the same thing about Evel jumping the Snake River decades back. 🙄
For me the more offensive then the size of the gaps was how janky and out of place those scaffolds were - a true eye-sore, more belonging in a post-apocalyptic Hardline that were held at some delapidated factory, rather than pristine green and lush landscapes....
About crashes - people also crash heavily at your run-off-the-mill WC rounds, so it is hard to judge just by example of three guys having attempted it.
The pressure at the Hardline to go more and more crazy has been apparent. Today's meedia is short of resuming true gladiator fights where the blood pours and bones crush and the participants get memed for life and killed....
I feel sorry for any kid coming up wanting to be in Redbull Hardline 2030 🤯
People have been saying the same (too risky) about Rampage for some time. Same could be said for eg DarkFest. There is a question about how brands & marketing (in this case, RB, Monster) are getting events into this position. In the end, it is driven by the consumer. Us. WE are the ones demanding riders put life and limb on the line - a kinda "Hunger Games" environment. If we didn't, the events wouldn't go this way. Simple. On the other hand, riders today are (reasonably) safely doing sh1t that was unimaginable just a few years ago. The same goes in eg freediving. Real risk. And athletes have an inherent drive to outdo themselves (if not everyone else). Perhaps it is what it is and we'll see the specialisation more distinctly, ie the top WC riders unlikely to compete in Rampage/Hardline/DarkFest due to sponsorship priorities, a 2nd tier of WC riders doing both (BK, Erlangsen et al) and some "Freeracers" focusing on the sketchy events (Brendog, Jono, other ex WC racers, etc). Despite our lust for insanity, I'd like to believe we don't REALLY want to see anyone hurt - especially those of us who have had some decent injuries. But we won't find the limits if we don't push.
I think my opinion on this matter is irrelevant. What's important is what the riders say. But you're making absolutely valid points. One must ask themselves: Is it called Red Bull HARDLINE or Red Bull RISKY LINE?
Seriously whose idea was this feature? I agree %100 that Hardline has always been about biking down difficult terrain. Not scaffolding. Imagine with all of this hype and question about this jump’s safety, if someone does miss the landing and falls down that cliff and gets seriously injured or possibly killed?? What then? I mean come on now…I watched Matt’s video and there’s shots of him peeking over the edge of that jump, there is no safe miss. It’s almost a guarantee if someone doesn’t make it they’re going to get severely injured..sounds like crazy lawsuits, and bad injuries and not worth it.
"Progressing the sport" lol once someone dies the sport will be set back much more, not just form a rider perspective but from a RedBull/marketing perspective because you will have had a live broadcasted event where your viewers have seen someone freaking DIE.
Related hot take: I don't want a Hardline series from Red Bull. I'm totally down to see some of the WC pros tackle a normal WC track with Rob and Elliot commentating.
This Jump is just stupid for me.
Badly build with way too much compression and a too Short lip wich makes it unnescessary dangerous.
And them there are the astethics for mich wich are no more toben.
they don’t use the terrain in a good way anymore. They Build Framework in beautiful Nature wich Looks disgusting just to Go further and more Crazy.
Really hate what they are Doing.
If this Stays…i don’t watch hardline
Different sport but this kind of reminds me of the circumstances of Dan Wheldon's death in Indy car in 2011. The organisers and sponsors kept pushing for more and more "exciting" race conditions and didn't realise they'd pushed it too far until it was too late. That's how tragedies happen. With this, it's a little different because we can all see it. It is a f***ing cool jump tho, there's no doubt about that, but seeing the vids of the first 3 to try it.....yeah this is a little over the line for me. POeople saying "they do bigger crazier stuff in rampage"....errrm yeah but they also aren't racing.
Brendan was ROBBED! The contrast between the beauty of the landscape and the jarringly ugly scaffolding is no better clue of the incompatibility of such vision for the sport.
That said, Brendan’s canyon flip didn’t have a net either and is arguably far far sketchier, yet didn’t garner this level of concern….but, as a 56 year old 3’ to flat max mountain biker, this is literally a bridge too far. Is death the next event requirement?
Downhill is proper jump (long or short that's not the issue), speed through the rocks and roots, offcamber and steep track, ripping berms. All these things against time! Hardline is Downhill race in some part and Nitro Circus in other. Next year we will see Ryan Williams doing Free WIlly on scooter thruogh canyon gap 🤣🤣
Someone should tell/explain to Dean what is the meaning of Hard, and why this event is invitation only... girls like Dean have been screaming about RB Rampage for more than decade now ...and Yes it's not your UCI bikepark DH worldCup weekend
It's incredibly stupid to even test it like that. Idk why you would risk it as an organiser.
Even with fixes it's probably too far and I would have preferred less scaffolding. Surely you could have found a scenic place to jump the river without building THAT. Difficult to call it a race if you're just happy to judge speed and survive.
If it runs...best hardline ever ⛳
Disagree, I don’t have any interest in watching something like this because of that gap
@@Ivypoison23 but you'd watch rampage and darkfest?
Simple don’t watch it then
@@prettyjohnshill76yeah cause those guys are riding something they have built and tested for weeks. Another thing about those two events, they aren’t race events, they are free style events. Which is exactly where this hardline jump needs to go, in a freestyle comp
@@Ivypoison23 at rampage they have 3 days of digging and 4 days of test riding and digging, riders at hardline have a few days of practice without the fatigue of digging in the desert and a whole group of riders helping each other get over the features. Essentially on paper making hardline “easier” if you can use such a word lol
It's Downhill not Downkill. Sure it's Gee but that lip is way wrong. Question is why someone ok'd that design to begin with. Just eyeballing it that's clear. I love gnarly but let's keep our riders alive and riding another day. Those mats down below ain't going to do shit. You'll land on them then fall of over the side anyway.I'm much more for big gnarly natural features. We can't expect everyone to suddenly become stunt men and women.
Davin Mcmillan had arguably worse injuries while guinnea pigging the canyon gap in Tasmania before they reworked it. I'm sure that jump would've been just as loud and controversial if they'd caught the crash on video. Shit's gnarly. Sadly it seems like crashing and misfortunes get more views and are more effective marketing tools than people riding clean and staying unharmed.
And the guy with the least experience of the 3 that tried it thinks it's easier than multiple other parts of the trail that have been done in years past and will be done again this year. Fact is it LOOKED a lot worse than it is. Yes if you went short it was bad. It almost always is. And I'd rather drop on that scaffold then send my head into a knife edge crop up after dropping one of those tight 20ft rock drops at full speed any day. Also... All 3 guys who rode it AND anyone who's ever rode big stuff knows your math is backwards. They had too much lip. Listen to the videos all 3 say it. And Matt's been running too soft. Not too stiff.
The jump itself isn’t so extreme (other than the glaring omission of safety nets over the canyon), but I don’t understand why they were surprised the kicker was too abrupt. All they had to do was build a 1:1 scale replica in a safe place to test the speed, take-off and landings thoroughly (and maybe use an inflatable landing ramp at first), before building the final version on the side of the mountain that they would then know would work safely.
I mean 2022 BK crashed while jumping the massive dirt jumps and they changed the lip and everything was fine. That's why they do testing and make sure everything is safe to ride. Unfortunately Jimbo took the hit this year and luckily he's ok.
I’m on the fence. It’s progression. But it also takes an iconic spot and ruins that nature feel. It’s an epic jump over a picturesque creek! It has consequences. All the progressive riders will want to hit that jump!!!! That all bein said....... Bring on the Progression and the Gnar!
Here’s the thing, I totally get what they are doing and I’m all about progressing the sport. I watched the videos and I was stoked but at the same time wondering, why are they testing this close to the event? This isn’t a last minute thing here. You don’t wing it on something like this. It’s 2024. We have civil engineers who can tell you the exact speed and exact transition for a jump. Why in the hell is this not happening? These energy drink companies make more money than any person on this thread will ever see in their lives. It’s ridiculous that they would put the riders lives in danger for this. And I love what the Athertons and Kerr have done for the sport. This is a disservice to them. Give them the budget. Do it right. Make it safe. This is just as stupid as concrete floors on supercross tracks.
One thing is the net. The images of this jump were around since quite some time. So they would have had plenty of time to put up the net. I honestly think, the net should have been put up the moment the main structure was built.
For guinea pigging that jump without one, only one word comes to my mind: stupid.
In regards to the general quality of the jump: don't know their process. But i know that big snowparks actually calculate their jumps and measure their builds (sometimes even with LIDAR etc.) to ensure the speeds and angles match up with what they calculated. This way they can make sure that the speeds are high enough that people make it into the landing and the landings are long enough that people who over shoot or come in a bit too slow don't immediately land completely flat or people get kicked weird and crash due to too tight radii.
My feeling is, that it was maybe built on current experience, but that experience didn't match what they were trying to build. So maybe a calculation or two wouldn't hurt for such a jump.
There are things like e.g. going from flat into a even radius of a circle ends up having an infinite impulse if the system is perfectly stiff. On a MTB this will be dealt with by the rider and the suspension, hence chances are high that you get compressed and bucket weird. To mitigate that, one should use e.g. an involute or an Euler spiral which reduces the radius of a section gradually and therefor you don't get bucked as easy.
If everyone makes it then it’ll will be the best thing ever and fist bumps all round, just takes one rider to not make it and Redbull will be slammed with a load of bad publicity and sadly MTB will be in the mainstream media for all the wrong reasons! Bit strange they’re saying they’ll put a net under it now after someone nearly ends themselves on it🤦🏼♂️ net first then test it!🤷🏼♂️
You summed it up nicely, it's gone a bit too far. Isn't Hardline supposed to be an event pushing the limit of racing instead of being Rampage 2.0? That doesn't look like a feature any world cup rider with any chance at the overall would want to risk their whole World Cup season to hit. On another safety note, isn't it a little huberistic to build a jump that large with the consequences it has at a location that is notoriously windy?
This jump gives me the same vibes as rampage. And I love/hate watching rampage for this reason it's thrilling to watch and it's insane to see these jumps being jumped. But I don't want to see the crash or hear of a crash the day after you know.
Jumps like thisthough they could use some maths and science and have the perfect shaped ramp made up, some engineer could even figure out the speed required and create a run in that uniforms the speed making it safer. But I feel like these jumps are just eyeballed and that's terrifying. Or hey maybe they get plans from an engineer who does the maths about speed and all that. Hell I bet someone even has a program that can run the simulations for different sized and shaped ramps. Take a level of danger and uncertainty out of the testing process. Long winded I know, 😅
Skateboarders and surfers having been doing way gnarlier stuff than this for decades. Not sure why fans care. The riders decide this, not those on PB or YT.
Rampage is way moore dangerous, doing some 360 and backflip on the edge of some pretty huge cliff, Hardline is sick, crazy use every words but Rampage is something else, good to see Jim ok 🤘
Hmm i get what your saying, but this wasn't some brainwave of media guys in redbull office thinking "yeah this will be ace - clueless" this has come from rider input, if the riders reckon they can do it, they a good chance redbull can make that happen 🤷♂️ its not called Hardline for no reason
It was a bit disappointing to read all of the negative feedback this feature has produced. The ramp is there to push the limits. We should applaud this in admiration and not feel like riders are being forced to do it. I mean its called “Hardline” for crying out loud! Its not “ Funline” or Rideable Line” or “Safeline” or whatever you want this feature to be. Can it be ridden? Its been proven that it can. So stop the wussroddary!
Is it a downhill race or a stunt course? I know Hardline walks this line, but considering what happened to Goldstone in Tasmania (granted not on any of the big structures), going bigger and more dangerous will keep the top riders away. By top riders, I just mean downhill racers, which is what interests me. I know there are many other folks that would be backflipping this, but that is a different sport. Not racing.
i think anyone would totally agree if its the world cups but its Hardline, there's no step up from what it offers. It is also an event beyond mountain biking, many people watch who aren't really into MTB because its not pushing the limits of just biking, but also the limits of humans in general. Ontop of this, Hardline is more than just a race, i feel people have seen it as just another race with bigger jumps. if it goes ahead, people should watch closely this year...
and that's why they called it a test. BK mentioned fixing the ramp. i'm all for keeping it, it's not even the longest one on the course.
I'm not a ramp builder but...if you know an average riders weight and the length of the gap, it should be easy to figure out what the takeoff and landing ramp should be shaped like (with options of course due to speed and desired loft), don't these builders use that info on these types of ramps? it's high school physics?
Yeah gotta change that lip that things cooooked. I’m with you too, it’s a big ugly turd on an otherwise beautiful hill. 🔥🔥🔥
But yo be fair I sorta want to watch hardline now 😂
I disagree with most of the things you said here.. BK latest video answers a lot of the "issues." Just a wildly negative outlook. Old school freeriders were going this hard to sell 1000 dvd/tapes... dont act like this is "because of redbull"
Well hardline has come to a point where the pro riders "have" to push them selves, its that kind of era. Its insane but holy crap it earns so much PR. Sadly the wrong kind.. DH is really fun but this is just insane..
I think they have rushed it - they should definitely do the jump, but take a few years to build a proper structure with heaps of safety features built into the structure. A well build structure with chunky wooden beams would sit so much nicer into the landscape too. It would be an investment in the future of the race. This scaffold thing just screams of rushing and cost-cutting.
what about jackson goldstone crashing and injuring homself at Tasmania and then couldn't compete in DH. I can totally see pro DH's not participating in Hardline going forward with these crazy features.
Its fine for the level these guys and girls are at...it does look a bit too steep..and i think a net is a fair idea...it would still be a huge dodgy gap even with a net..but would avoid a death..but people die landing funny of 3 meter gaps..all the time....🤙
As Al Pacino once said..you can get killed walkin yer doggy 😂😂
Now everyone agrees its dangerous and needs a net, its worth thinking of what a safety net looks like. I reckon the only way to save riders who get bucked, fall short or get off line is a net from lip to landing and built out wide enough to save any bouncing off it.
If this sounds lame then I reckon like Deano says, scrap it and burn it at the afterparty.
Don't wanna see anyone die for my clicks.