Doping Accusations At The Tour de France?
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- Опубліковано 29 лип 2023
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In my opinion it is naive to think they are not doping. The science will always be ahead of the testing. Cycling gets a lot of stick for it however I think it is similar in most professional sports. There is so much money, advertising etc as an incentive.
Not in marathon running that world record has dropped many times in the last few years kipchogi no blinks twice
No cycling team has the money to do real fundemental research so boths athletes and testers have access to the same research papers.
Can be absolutely true but unfortunately until someone is caught on it, they’re clean if we assume that it’s nothing more than assumption , but I do agree they keep flying since last 20/30 years so it is what it is
@@gf46tfg32fiuthe testing is behind the science. See my other comment.
i grow tired of saying this. how can they be so much faster? these days doped to the gills Pantani, Armstrong ect could hardly qualify as domesteques.
I give him the benefit of the doubt but the Dutch cycle team and Danish riders have a history
So do most countries. Slovenia, for example.
Wout van Aert's comment after the TT - "I am the best of the normal people" - is telling. WVA and Jonas Vongegaard are in the same team so presumably they have the same tech and nutrition plans. Granted that JV has an advantage on a TT with a difficult climb but to beat WVA, one of the best time trialists in the world, by about 3 minutes is simply unbelievable. To put it in context, had JV started immediately after WVA he would have overtaken him and left him out of sight. Also, JV's time in the first 4K - a flat sector where WVA has an advantage - was 20 seconds faster than WVA's, 5 seconds per km faster! Finally, JV's TT performances until about 4 years ago were pretty unremarkable.
No one can know if Vingegaard was doped but the comparisons to van Aeart and other "big machines" on the flat sector are probably not very revealing. The big guys would have to hold back and preserve energy for the climb. Van Aeart seemed to do exactly that.
Wout and Jonas are best friends, his comment is nothing other than acknowledging that Pogacar and Vingegaard are in a league of their own, as we saw all Tour. Wout was NEVER considered a favourite for this particular TT. His odds was 16 with the bookmakers whereas Vingegaard and Pogacar's odds were 2.50. Wout was not even in the top 8 at the first stop where time was taken. He was saving energy for the climb because he's 20 kg heavier than Jonas. It takes Wout a lot more watts to climb than Jonas.
Jonas has only been in a pro team since 2019. I'm sorry, where was he supposed to show you his amazing TT skills before then? In 2017 where he had a broken femur and was out for most of the season and then had to spend quite some time to recover? Almost all of recorded TTs are in top 10. He has only finished outside top 3 in the TdF once. Clearly, he's one of the best at this discipline.
It was also recently revealed by his parents that Jonas purchased an expensive TT bike as a teenager because it was an area of cycling that he loved. He's on his TT bike minimum 5 hours every week and they had prepared extensively for this stage. He had gone through it many times and worked to perfect each corner.
If you look at Pogacar and Vingegaard side-by-side comparisons, you can easily see that Vingegaard is faster due to his daring down the descents and the way he attacked the corners.
@@Soli11 You misunderstood my comment. It is the time differences that are "d’une autre planète". My point wasn't that JVA was favourite to win or that it is unbelievable that JV won the TT stage. JV is a very good time trialist and it was no surprise that he won on that hilly course but the time gaps over WVA and all the other pro riders are incredible. As to your comment about JV's "amazing TT skills before 2019": JV was in team ColoQuick (a non-WT team) before he joined Jumbo Visma in 2019 and his cycling performances pre-Jumbo Visma are available. For example, he placed 17th in the U23 Danish National TT Championship; this was before the Tour des Fjords when he broke his femur.
Well said! WWA loss of 20s in 4kms, in flat for the clean JV? 😂😂😂😢😂
Wout is also 40Lbs heavier than Jonas. Jesus that's 40LBS! Jonas looks like he has starved himself. Think about the weight difference. That is just a fact when it comes to the GC guys. They are super light these days.
The technology advancement argument falls down on the basis that everyone has access to it. There is still plenty of ‘gear’ used in cycling, the extent to which a particular rider makes use of it depends on the balance of risk and reward-win The Tour versus not win The Tour.
Jonus wasn't primed as a child to be a cyclist. He was working in a fish factory two years ago. He was a part time rider. One thing he did have is a brand new blank Blood Passport which they good wangle to have an extremely doped base level. New riders don't have a past passport history so they can dope then get tested to have a high base level.
Older riders have longer blood histories so struggle to dope more as it'll show up on their blood history.
Head of uci isn't interested in chasing dopers too.
@@escapedfromnewyork he wasn't a cyclist from a child which was being insinuated unlike most pros, ie Wout and mvdp. He wasn't a full time rider on a continental team for too long and the fish factory gave him an income. It was Michael Valgren, who also worked in fish factory who nagged Jonus to be a top rider. Valgren said Jonus was a bit lazy. Always had to be nagged to go out training. It was a quick rise after Jumbo tested him.
Every intelligent person knows Jonas doped to get such a super human result against other cyclists that are the best in the world.
Yeah, he was. He signed for a pro continental team when he was a teenager which means he had his blood passport since 2016. In 2018, riding for ColoQuick, he was tested by Team Denmark which showed he had a special heart for his body size. He didn't work on a fish factory out of necessity, but because his sports director wanted to give him some structure in his every day life. Or else he would sit on the couch all day.
@@tongobong1 Every intelligent person knows Pogacar doped to get such a super human result against other cyclists that are the best in the world. Flanders, Tour de France, Word RR, Lombardia, LBL etc.
@@HolgerDanske874 But Pogacar didn't get a super human result. Super human is when you are way better than others. Pogacar is only slightly better.
People have completely misunderstood doping if they believe that a cyclist can be doped for one stage, have a missive spiky effect and not get tested positive. EPO takes weeks to affect and the biological passports is designed to trigger big changes in red blood cell levels. And thereby detecting blood doping. The point is that if Vingegaard was doped you should not view the stage 16 in isolation but look at the 15 stages before it as well. Here Pogacar was just as strong eventhough he weights 6 kilos more. Vingegaard made the perfect TT lets celebrate it.
As a non-expert, I can't speak with any authority. But your point is in keeping with what I would guess to be the case. "Doping" surely cannot be something you do on one day and get some dramatic improvement, then quickly return to normal. It must be a regime of chemical, hormonal, or other additives that cause the body to adapt over time. And whatever that would be, it surely cannot be something that one rider or one team knows about but others do not. Unless one believes that TJV or UAE has its own research budget and is developing novel substances, any doping program would have to be based on something others know about as well. Steroids in baseball and EPO in cycling are obvious examples of performance enhancements that some used and some did not, but certainly everyone knew about. If Jonas is doping, so are many others, and whatever they are using is known about by doctors, trainers, and others. I just find it difficult to believe that any of them are on something so revolutionary that it is altering human potential on a massive scale, but the UCI doesn't know about and can't detect. After all that has gone on in this sport, word would get out and somebody -- a competitor, a disgruntled teammate, a team employee, etc. -- would go public. I will believe the results we are seeing are fraudulent when something more convincing that record-setting times is presented as evidence.
Yes you can take something to become super human just for one race. It is nonsense to think otherwise.
A few ex pros have stated that Vingegaard's TT was more the result of Pogacar's more cautious descending and a time consuming bike change. Also, Pogacar's disastrous performance on the following mountain stage, where he lost several minutes, suggests that his relatively poor TT was also a hint that he was seriously running out of steam after some aggressive attacking on earlier stages.
His remarkable recovery so soon afterwards, winning a tough mountain stage would, in a different era, have raised eyebrows.
TP doesn’t change bikes and doesn’t crack the next day then what are they saying then?
Pogs time trial was also exceptional. He was over a minute ahead of third place.
Pog has always been exceptional though even in his young days and carried a biological passport since very young, Vingegaards results where fabricated by jumbo Visma in similar fashion to Roglic suddenly coming into the scene from his Skijumping.
He whooped van aert for 3 minutes! On a 22km TT! Keep telling yourself and others who believe you its because perfect lines and a bike switch.
That does not change that he beat WVA by basically 3 mins, which looked fast af.
Guys Im just here to say that I really just enjoy just hearing you talk. Keep the good content going!
Brilliant video and discussion. I absolutely agree with your colleague Francis, the salient point is in what Vingegard said "I haven't used anything Illegal". As Armstrong said years ago it was a level playing field regrading doping, they all did it. Nowadays, as you rightly say, the top level cyclists will take all the 'legal' stuff to get an edge, beetroot juice, asthma inhalers (Wiggins) and new stuff that hasn't been classified illegal yet. However,, let's not forget the unbelievable effort that these riders put in all year round even with the 'extras'. 😎🚴♂️ Frank Miele, Benissa Spain.
So how does one rider LEGALLY perform so much better (about 90 seconds better over such a short TT distance) than the ten or fifteen other hugely talented riders who the talent to win that stage? Some possibilities:
1. (Chris Horner idea) Jonas Cumulates a number of seconds from various legal advantages that add up to those 90 seconds: e.g. 20 seconds from better legal equipment design and fitting, 25 seconds from just being more fit and better trained, 15 seconds from rare natural physiological advantages from freak VO2 max etc) 20 seconds from the gift of significantly better body shape for better aero, 20 seconds from having been gifted with and developed better bike balance to take turns safely/conservatively yet losing less speed, a mere 15 seconds from being lighter and leaner than Pogocar and Van Aert etc, , 10 seconds from happening to have better psychological condition at the moment (having just a little more confidence from prior stages' results), other?
2. New chemical PED method that has not been known well enough yet to be known and added to the list of illegal substances.
3. New method of using illegal drugs or drug masking that can beat the tests.
Not any proof of innocence, but if he is innocent, then Jonas knows that no test can find anything illegal in his body. So he goes all out even though he could have eased up a little once he had the stage sewed up, to win the stage by less in order to raise less suspicions. In contrast maybe Lance or Indurain or Riis or Ulrich when they knew they were cheating may have sandbagged a little hoping to avoid raising eyebrows and lessening the accusations and investigations.
Jonas was already 2sec ahead of Tadej at the first corner (19sec of riding), he didn't 'relax' going down hill, he kept pedalling, check the cornering etc. )also mentioned by Chris Horner and Lance Amstrong/George Hincapie).
Jonas weighs 132lbs! I can't imagine that. Tadi is 146lbs. 14lb difference. Wout is 172lbs. 40lb difference! There's just no comparing when you have a V02 and being 40lbs lighters. No way can you can compete with that. I think it's much, much more of an advantage than 15 seconds. Crazy.
There is still no definite test to detect a blood transfusion. I think it's as simple as that, whatever he is doing, it has to be changing the levels of his hemoglobin/hematocrit, therefore increasing his performance 2 weeks into a grand tour.
@@escapedfromnewyork "No gifts"? Armstrong often gifted stages away. Pogacar do not.
Tapentadol is not specifically listed as a banned substance by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). However, as an opioid analgesic, its use by athletes is subject to strict regulations. WADA's Prohibited List includes certain classes of substances that are banned in competition, including narcotics, but not all opioids are explicitly mentioned.
Athletes who need to use medications like Tapentadol for legitimate medical reasons must obtain a Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) to avoid potential violations. It's essential for athletes to check the current WADA Prohibited List and consult with their medical professionals and sports authorities to ensure they comply with all regulations.
I feel all of what you talk about, and the only other tour winner we had in Denmark ended up being doped, so I don't want vingegaard to be doped, BUT, I also feel like with all the advances made in technology, being doped and then beating the opposition like that would be monumentally stupid.
All bikers have the most advanced technology and not just Vingegaard. Most bikers don't dope like Vingegard so this is why he is winning by a lot.
@@tongobong1 The top 50 is doing the same thing as Vingegaard. So he is winning a lot because he is the best.
Tadej Pogacar burying of Roglic on a late stage time trial left me scratching my head a few years back. Figured nothing was said because they were both from Slovenia so it would have been seen as particularly "bad form" sour grapes to even remark about it
Tadej did not burry Roglic FFS, Roglic buried himself, he was FIFTH in that TT
It is interesting to see Pogacar so relaxed when Jonas is beating him because Pogacar knows he is much better cyclist than clearly doped Jonas and someday Jonas will end up like Armstrong.
@@tongobong1 Pogacar knows Vingegaard is the superior rider. I guess Gianetti and the UAE doctors have to create some new drug to beat natural Vingegaard.
I think the main problem cycling actually has with this is multifaceted.
Ultimately, its an individual sport based on physical output and has a history of huge doping.
I think fans have a right to question this shit and really should because of that history. It wasn't a sprinkling of doping, it was a good chunk of the Peloton.
In other sports you run into a different set of problems. Tennis seems to have an enormous amount of Asthma sufferers.
In Football, the problem is quantity of players to regularly check. Physical output is super important in elite football, but there are 25 First Team Pros in the roughly 200 Pro teams just in the UK, that doesnt include the U23 squads, the U18 squads etc.. That's a ton of dope tests and you can probably whack testosterone all summer and never get tested. We saw in Icarus what that does to performance numbers.
Other sports do have these problems too. Athletics in a massive way, rugby, MMA, boxing, anything endurance based or Olympic based.
Doping is always gonna be a fight, but I don't think in professional sport they should be given leeway because it's been proven that where money or glory is involved someone will cheat to get it.
I also think that when an athlete goes from very good to destroying everyone in places that are surprising, it should be questioned.
Physical gains of 5% or 10% when you're already close to the very top are supremely difficult and with the history of cycling teams, riders and defenders of them kinda have to accept that for a good while yet that reputation deserves to stick around.
After all, the brown envelope wasn't that long ago...
Armstrong flat out stated that he never got caught because the testing sucked. Greg LeMond would be one of the best people to ask about performance levels. He knew about watts per kilo back in the 80's. He's even pointed out the mechanical doping going on where someone would swap 5 different bikes during a stage. Now either Shimano was producing junk or there was something nefarious about the bike that they were hiding. And we can all attest that Shimano doesn't make junk.
That's because Armstrong was lying. It is well-known that he had positive test results and it was covered up.
@@Soli11he had a positive for a corticosteroid right? Not really a big catch....
@@dco1019 It was positive for EPO in Tour of Schwitzerland in about 2001. He donated 100 000$ to UCI and that was it.👏🏻
Really good speculations, boys.. Eyes on a sore subject.
Does he have a TUE ? If so, what are the details.
Pointing the finger at one rider, or even a handful is pointless. All the competitive ones are doped. Without question. Been that way for at least 70 years. All the winners of big races have been doped for over 100 years. It's impossible to be clean and competitive in this environment. It's biologically impossible.
You have proof of this of course..? Or you should tell UCI about your findings from your couch at home..
@@pvj9289 The sport has been a dope fest for years. Are you 12? Did you miss the whole Lance Armstrong/Floyd Landis entire team being busted all the dirty laundry coming out in the open era? There were so many naive people reciting Lance Armstrong talking points for years... then they all shut up of course. "But he survived cancer and it made him so lean!" lol
@@pvj9289 The proof is the results, and every single generation of pro cyclists doping, to massive performance gain. You think these guys aren't and are significantlyfaster due to some marginal training and aero gains? PED gains are not in any way marginal when stacked together. They're gigantic and unavoidable if you want to win or even be remotely useful in the peloton.
Anqueteil when asked if he doped said he only did it when he absolutely had to, and when asked how often that was, he replied that was almost always. Nothing changed.
Sentence structure the video title?
Well when other team managers and trainers are saying it doesn't pass the sniff test I can only say it was suspicious.
It would be the first time in the history of pro cycling that such a performance was achieved clean. We might know in 10-20 years how this was achieved, when Vingo and Pog are retired and it doesn't matter anymore.
Pog is clean. Vingo is clearly not as you can even see on his face. The super human performance is the red flag.
@@tongobong1 "Pog is clean" LOOOOOL! Flat earther spotted
@@HolgerDanske874Pog is clean. I know him because he is neighbour of my father.
The pros are basically on a level like in the old EPO days because the use the pressure chambers!
The can get up to the max hematocrit level that is allowed and i think this level is still at 50
The 7.6 watt/kg were wildly inaccurate. It was based on a Cda of 0.30, which is what an average sized rider on a regular racing bike, riding on the horns would have.
Vingegaard was in a skinsuit, aero gear and TT bike. Remco which is of similar stature to Vingegaard has a Cda of 0.17 on his TT bike, although he is known to be extremely aero.
If you plug in a Cda of 0.20 the watts per kilo drops to 7, still a great performance, but not otherworldly.
He was climbing on a TT bike during the 7.6 W/KG so if anything it would be slightly more resistant uphill.
@@badsamaritansofficial6704 How? The watts/kilo are calculated based on speed, aerodynamic resistance, incline, and weight. Incline and speed are known. Aero resistance and weight (rider + bike) are the unknowns.
On his TT bike he is more aero, which then requires less watts to maintain speed.
His TT bike is one of the lightest in the field at around 7 kilos, POGs TT bike is estimated to be 2 kilos heavier.
@@SH-kt3nk2kg heavier lol.... Sure buddy
Its facts, and Jonas is 7 kilos lighter than Tadaj also facts
Greg lemond did a great interview recently and he thinks they’re not doping ( pog + ving ) because they’re cadence is more believable on climbs ie 80/90 as opposed to Armstrong and froome 120 and they’re 5 kg lighter than In his day. But at the same stroke he’s implied from some inside knowledge that cancellara and froome used illegal motors in their bikes
Ridiculous. No one used an electric motor in their bike.
Ah, the illegal motors. Anytime someone mentions this it just makes me laugh!!
Motors were absolutely used in the past. It’s why they test so rigorously for them now.
Im a massive fan of Le Mond and inclined to agree with him. However, didn’t he make that statement before the TT stage? I’d like to see an expert on CdA, cadence, Vo2 step up and explain the pure physics of is this possible or not. Equally lets not forget Pog was absolutely knackered going into it. Which is a factor. I don’t know if doping or not and Im not taking a view either way. Given the performance and the history of the sport then I think we are all entitled to question his performance. I do wish a qualified scientist would step up and explain if its physically possible or not. As Le Mond says, even at the time it was absolutely known with some simple calculations that what Lance was doing was impossible.
@@K3MCL No they weren't. It is silly to think so.
@@donwinston silly eh. Aye ok mate. Wondering why they have invested vast amounts of money and resources in testing for something which doesn’t and has never happened?! I’d suggest that would seem rather silly but hey
....one point you didn't mention is the riders are not going up the climbs as fast as they did in the 1990's and 2000's - so even with all the advances in bike technology and nutrition at least you can say _artificial enhancements_ are not as marked as they used to be.
As usual the riders with the best chemistry inside wins the race, Teams doped to the gills have a Better chance to compete. And even the choice of One doping doctor over annother can mean the difference of a jersery or a 15th place in the gc.
I think it can be solved easily. Have 100% transparency on any and all items (food, drink, medicine) used before during and after a race, over and above the blood passport.
Therefore we can see trends on uses of specific substances e.g. rider gets dropped on a stage uses 10 paracetamol, wins the next day. vs rider gets dropped on a stage uses 1 paracetamol, finishes 120th the next day.
Some things are not as complicated as we might think one you have a bigger data set, however we still need to be wary not to imply anything when not warranted.
Sure, Jonas is all about hard work 😂
Just like the rest in top 50.
I have absolutely no issues with doping.
The question that should be asked is, is it healthier for elite athletes to dope?
What these athletes put themselves through is nuts.
Currently there is one cyclist on the UK anti doping banned list. There are 23 rugby players on that list. Consistently rugby players top the league table of banned athletes. There is a tendency for doping offenders to come from the lower professional or amateur ranks where testing, an expensive business, is less common or non-existent. In these circumstances anti-doping officials will appear if they receive regular accusations about certain individuals.
Nah the stars are protected same in cycling.
Let’s get things in to perspective guys. Vingegaard’s win looks better than it really was. We had a Pogacar that had an injury meaning he couldn’t prepare as per normal hence his form started to fall away by the end of the 2nd week.
Then WVA’s ITT time not so good due to all the break and pulling he had been doing
In addition Pogi hat a total breakdown the next day and was probably not at a 100% in the ITT. In addition with Jonas taking a lot more risk in the downhill and the bike change, it could've been a lot closer
Every sport has it's juice users-plain and simple. Team EF Education claims to be against the use of juice in their team, which is refreshing. Definitely going to support them more
Difficult subject really.
Cause cycling have a lot stricter rules than most sports.
Looks at the injections Nadal got under Roland-Garos last year.
In cycling they would get suspended for 2 years doing that, but in tennis you can get them in front og the audience and tv cameras.
Same with Zlatan, he had same type of injections done 20 times he said.
At my 92kg, 7.6W/kg would mean I have 700W available!
I could 0-60 in 3 seconds with that power. I would be a super car.
7 w/kg is fake news. Also, if your weight is 58 kg. it's easier to get better w/kg. than if your weight is 92 kg...
Marfan Syndrome - posh name for "ape index"... A positive ape index is measured as the cm span vs height. SO if your span is 2cm greater than your height, your AI is +2. +2 to -2 is the natural range, anything outside that is abnormal, and any positive number will help you swim faster.
We know riders are no longer tested at night , there is an 8hr window i believe.
There are also drugs I believe are not detectable within 1 to 2hrs of taking them
......keep believing.
Jonas making a statement of “I don’t take anything I wouldn’t give my daughter” seems like a really reckless statement to make if he does dope. He’d obviously know that a positive test is a possible outcome so why make such a statement vs playing it down?
While there has been a lot of improvements in equipment, diet and training over the past 25 years (reaching back to “Lance” era) when you look at some of the times/efforts on same parcours, its hard to get around the current performance not just at the top but for the entire peloton…my guess is that there are drugs/techniques maybe even in advance of testing and or not even being on a banned list that is pushing performance…IS IT ILLEGAL? Not sure but I my guess is as has been the case for most of cyclings history using “stuff” illegal or unfair has not reduced
You could still be twins if your birth date/day was different! One could be born at 11:59 on one day and the second on born at 12:01 the next day! If you extrapolate that out to be on Dec. 31, then they would be different years also!
One of the issues with performance enhancement in cycling is that so many people do it as a form of fitness! You can't stop human nature in believing that if someone is better than you, they must be cheating or using something! That again is just human nature! People want to make excuses for their short comings and blame it on the other person cheating!
So no one is saying anything about Pogi finishing at the TDF. 1st, 1st, 2nd and 2nd so where is the accusers
People really have no idea of all the legal substances that will make you faster (leaving aside BeetIt). Let's take mitochondria for example, these are the power units of the body, the more you have and the stronger they are the faster you go. So how do you improve the quantity and power legally? You can take these - isoflavones, quercetin, vitamin k2, PQQ, ubiquinol, creatine, magnesium, omega 3, berberine, NAC, NADH, NMN, astanxathin, Ca-AKG, EGCG, choline, l-carnosine, leucine, carnitine, ALA, flaxseed, psyllium, walnuts and even porridge. Do I take these? Of course. Do they work? Well, in March with little training because of injury I set an age group world running record in adverse conditions on a mountainous course in Wales. We are talking a bit more than marginal gains and do not overlook the obvious, power to weight ratio. Having said that do I believe in Vingegaard? Nope.
Has anyone ever asked Greg Lamond about doping in his Era? He acts as if his wins were beyond reproach. We need a deep dove into doping during this time period.
9.2 VO2 Max
Yes they have. When he came into the sport the popular drugs at the time could be detected. Steroids and amphetamines etc. People were trying to cheat but getting caught. So he could compete. A short time later EPO and blood doping started and when he saw the stupid performances being accomplished but not being detected he quit since he would not dope. Que the music for the long line of blood doped Spaniards winning the tour. Then Lance!
Had Pogi won the TdF with 4-6 minutes this year nobody would raise an eyebrow.. "cause he´s just the best rider in the world and he´s a nice guy as well".. Pogi fanboys are crying doping everywhere because their boy lost .. Pogi needs to come better prepared next year and we´ll see what the difference will be..
Im a pogi fan and i think both Jonas and him are on gear.
People should stop caring about this! Just enjoy the show! You dont care if a rock band did some lines before a concerto, as long as they play well....
I played amateur competetive squash, and ate a mars bar before my match. I didn't win all the time, but I felt better. All in the mind ?
The most impressive thing about UCI world tour road cyclist is how none of them talks about whats really going on.
what about persuading a doctor to give you TUE for something that normally wouldn't be prescribed for a condition you have, because while it helps the condition a bit the side effects are definitely not worth it unless if you can make millions of pounds by losing a couple of kilos?
Didn’t they tested him like 7X?
People with Marfan syndrome are usually thin and tall with disproportionately long legs, arms, toes and fingers.
While i appreciate you bringing this up, you should at least research the numbers first. The assumptions made for the 7,6w/kg was proven wrong almost a week ago. And again, it's assumptions which were made by a twitter user, who would not show the calculations, until he got new info about bikeweight, aerodynamics and training.
Vingegaard's has an exceptional evolution from "normal" to "top level", that is no way natural.
Can you please explain what you mean by this?
As soon as Jonas travelled outside flat Denmark and went to the mountains as a teenager, he was seen as a huge talent. His talent was just discovered later since he did not grow up biking in the Slovenian mountains. He was stuck in Denmark where the highest point in the entire country is 174 metres tall.
He made huge strides after signing with Team Coloquick, but he broke his femur in 2017 that slowed his development as he was then stuck in bed for many months and then it took even more months to recover his form. He beat a record up a famour Strava mountain and TJV then signed him after that.
If you watch Jumbo-Visma documentaries or listen to the book written about them, they very quickly discovered that Jonas had massive potential. He just had not had the right training. He ate the same amount of food whether he had rode for 2 hours that day or 6 hours. That tells you what little training he had. They went in and corrected all those things and actually wanted him for their TdF team already in 2020, but Jonas said no because his daughter was going to be born around that time. You will not be asked to ride the TdF after only being with one of the best teams in the world after only 1 year if you are not exceptional. In 2021, they also knew how good he was. They asked him to lie to the media and say he was just there to learn, but he was actually a secret co-captain from day 1. Once again, you will not be given this role as a young rider if you have not shown something exceptional.
I think you are basing your comment purely on the fact that Vingegaard used to work in a fish factory. It was actually only a part-time job that he had while he was riding for Team Coloquick. He has been a professional cyclist since he was a teenager.
Another santa claus believer
You have to take into account that Tadej changed bike while Jonas didn't. So you can shave minimum 15s up to probably closer to 30s off the difference between both time trial performances.
what about the 180 other best cyclists in the world that he beat by > 3 min... moron
Ok. From that you can then subtract the time Tadej gained from changing the bike. He must have thought it would be a net positive to change. Maybe it wasn't, but you assume that the change had no positive effect the rest of the stage
@@calocalhero Actually, Chris Horner did a good review of the stage here -> ua-cam.com/video/O7yCxwRnyJA/v-deo.html
@@calocalhero It has been revealed that Tadej changed because he was just more comfortable on his other bike. Adam Yates did not change bikes. Comfortable is not really something you can measure.
@@Soli11 Before stage 16 there were less than 10 seconds between the two. Do you really think Tadej would have change bikes if he didn't expect that the properties of the road bike would make up for at least some of the immediate time loss ? Of course he expected that and of course he was right to some degree.
Jonas has been coming since 3 yrs ago. No doping here. It’s pure dedication and hard work. Pure jealousy from a lot of fans who think Pog should be winning everything. Laughable
I’m a Jonas fan…but everyone knows the entire sport is doped
@@slowmotion7478 Then why is it that the other riders are not at the same level if they are also doping?
ok, take your head out of the sand... your post is laughable
Teams with more money have better doping programs. If you want to find the winners, look at the teams spending 💰. This has been the story for decades. C'mon dude...keep up.
Don´t listen to the Pogboys.. all talk from the couch.. they all "think/know/heard" some sht and believe they´re experts ...
On the Sram glove. Having sensors on the thumb and finger tips would let you shift by pressing any where on the bars, grip, lever body or whatever.
You wouldnt need to clamp anything other than brake levers on the bars.
Very practical really. Less practical but very real marketing opportunities are reduced weight, drag and fully customisble cock pit fit by doing nothing.
I guess having nithing to move or position wont be welcome by the bike fitter smoke and mirrors show.
Unfortunately we saw this stories, exceptional bla bla bla. If it is out of the charts then what's the doubt regarding "exogenous" assistance?
The main point is how did they do it?
I actually think there is some kind of PED there. I am not convinced that ony a single rider is doing it. V seemed to have a better position on his TT bike, didn't change bikes and, possibly more important, looked to have a more powerful team protecting him every day.
What I truely HATE is that it used to take some real skill to ride snd things like Di2 and two way radios have made it too easy. Now, huge fitness is mostly all that is required. (MOSTLY all thats required. You do have to be able to NOT crash and go downhill exceedingly fast.)
Hemoglobin powder from sea worm having 40 times more O2 carrying capacity and not detectable
Who ever says there is no skill involved with cycling needs to watch world championship this weekend.
Roll out various Armstrong Defences.
Rider's can't prove they are clean. You just have to trust them. I think it is weird that so many riders are becoming grand tour contenders at 22 years old now. But, at least most of them seem like nice guys.
Don't you think it's more weird that a 30+ guy is winning? I mean, looking at history statistics of capability in every aspect of sport. I think the 20s are peak.
@@evelynbabyblue What stats are you looking at? You have to go back to 1965 for the last 23 year old winner of the TDF. Merx, Hinault, Ulrich, Contador all won at 24 yrs, but, of course they have been exposed as systemic dopers.
Across a lot of endurance sports, athletes hit their peak in their late 20s. Leadership and tactical skills around age 30. It is exceptional for a 40 year old to still be a top contender but mid-30s is historically still competitive for someone that was a top performer at 30.
The effects of some doping therapies are known to be long lasting. A couple of seasons of EPO training can benefit your 15 year career. The most effective tactic now would be to dope young before biometrics are well established.
Scientifically no, any body man or woman is at top peak performance at age 30, overall.
The same as peak time performance for athletes is at 18h ish.
@@WeallAreAdults What scientific paper are you citing? The average age of Olympic medal winners is 27, Professional footballer - 27, Marathon winners- 31, Iron man winners - 32. Very few sports have world class competitors at 18.
@@the_rzh i'm talking in general not just top sports, but also mainly included, and the paper is one i've read while doing research on it for school about 15y ago so it might have changed
but i'm talking in general here, age 30 seemed to be the conclusion of human peak, but shit changes so it's w/e
No drugs makes sense to me. It's a competition and it needs to be fair. It also needs to be healthful for the athletes. You can't say that American football is healthy because pro players have life spans in the 50s. I don't know about cycling because you are able to do so much more than in any other sport. There is no limit imposed by collisions with the earth other than crashes. In marathoning you beat your body up with each step. Does a grand tour take years off the life of the riders who compete? If so we should limit the distances somehow. We should do something to protect cyclists from fans. We should do something to prevent crashes. I'm 80 and have lots of aches and pains from sports injuries, mainly bike crashes in races and training. But I don't think they will shorten my life.
Substantially better tech and training yet still slower than the 2000s. No way imo
I heard Jonas was born with an oversized heart? Would explain his high V02 & tolerance. Australia had a famous horse champion, Phar Lap, had an oversized heart.
Yeah it's beetroot juice 😂
Although i have no doubt that cyclist are not doped during the tour anymore, you would be foolish to not think that some form of doping happened during the pandemic. I mean, just look at the insane increase in performance from tdf 2020 onwards. What i believe has happened is that riders must have done for example EPO to train with increased performance, reach a level that they could not have reached without doping, and just maintained that as good as possible. That would explain why none of them have tested positive for anything after the pandemic, but that they have increased the performance drastically.
Jumbo Visma are the strongest team in pro cycling and have one of the biggest budgets and can bring in the best riders so why would they need to dope? Also, why make things so obvious with such a big winning margin? Having read David Millar’s book, I do understand the psychology of winning at all cost and not considering the long-term consequences (bans, tile loses etc) but we’re not taking about a mid-peloton team looking to get an advantage over those with bigger budgets.
It's like everybody know it's already been reported that he takes Keytones Course it's not banned by the Ic u or by the cycling Organization Whatever they call it, I can't remember. 4:52
I’m a Tadi fan but watching Jonas make his way around the TT course and one could easily see his technique alone was beyond Tadi, put that with obvious prep for the TT shown through. Not doping ❤
Yes Jonas Did attack and its nothing to do wirh doping but studies
but Tadi was still over a minute faster than 3rd place, that result alone should be suspicious and to say he did a poor ride is ridiculous. Vin was 3 minutes faster than everyone else apart from Tadi. I have seen this before, I wanted to believe back then and look how that turned out.
@@tommaguzzi1723 and both Vin and Tadi are much lighter. Vin being several kilos less than Tadi. Also, guys who have doped at their weight will have an unreasonable high cadence.....with huge power (aka Lance Armstrong and a few others like Pantani). The heavier guys are harder to track due to their lower grinder style cadence (Ulrich, Indurain). I think the difference today, as told by Greg LeMond in the latest interview, is weight. These GC guys are super light these days. Vin looks like a prisoner of war.
@@FreeMTrider Pantani weighed just 56kg. According to Procycling Stats Vin weighs 60 kg and Pog 66kg. If they are clean how can they smash The Pirate's times when he had blood like tomato soup and rode a lighter bike?
Technique alone is not going to be that significant and he was racing against some of the worlds best. He wasn't at some low level event
they will only believe you when you win with a tiny margine.
Okay take the mountain stage where TP cracked or maybe he didn’t and had something to hide himself and you have a very very close TDF. Hey UAE placed 2 on the podium
As long as there is a finish line or a Strava segment there will be cheating. Sponsors want results and the results they want is not second place. At the end of the day I am entertained by what I am watching with the professional cyclist and that is all i want is to be entertained. If they dope or not it does not impact my love of cycling and how much i love to ride.
Cheating at the Tour de France is ingrained in the tour. Read about the first tour and the cheating that went on, known by the tour director and allowed to happen without consequence because the tour director wanted a specific winner.
Professional cycling is entertainment just like pro football, baseball, and race car driving and they all dope in those sports and they are wildly popular.
JV never won a TT before this one! He crushed everybody.
UCI and WADA are sleeping...
2 years before unnown rider, now superman.......
Yeah, he did. He also gifted the ITT last year in the Tour de France to Van Aert. Pogacar though, have only won ITTs in Tour de France and no where else.
@@marjanmoskov4679 Just like Pogacar when he signed the UAE pre contract with Dr. Iñigo San-Millán, Gianetti and Matxin Fernandez. All known dopers.
After all the fallout from the shit that happened in the 2000s why would anyone think its worth it. Its not. I think the guy just has incredible pain threshold. I just cant believe anyone would go back to that. They would have learned their lessons after what happened. I do find it hard to believe that the two best climbers whacked everyone in the TT. I just dont know how.
Lol.
I agree but give David Millar’s book a read if you haven’t, the psychology behind doping is interesting.
What was that swimmer? Bro
Money in football work in a different way :) Also, a single good football player can have much lower overall impact than a single good cyclist.
Thinking that there could be no doping in ANY top-tier professional sport is quite naïve. Whether it is a new substance, that is not yet banned, or it is just a very smart doping program, one way or another unfair advantage is used all over the place.
American NFL is a good example...there is NO way to grow a human that large/fast without HGH or some such.
Greg LeMond who knows more about this stuff than all of us combined, explains the physiological reasons why he doesn't believe why anyone in the 2023 was doping, this is a much watch episode ua-cam.com/video/7xq5PQvBFvI/v-deo.html
This conversation really needs to begin with " define doping " and then go from there . Current UCI regulations don't base themselves on how people feel about what should or shouldn't be allowed . People like Vingegaard and Pogacar are so exceptonal in relation to the rest of us in their athletic ability that should we be surprised at particular performances on any given day ? When someone so freakishly good has a really good day are you not going to find these kinds of results occasionally ?
No one is comparing Vingegaard and Pogacar to "the rest of us". They are being compared to the 200 other best cyclists in the world. Pogacar had an exceptional ride, beating #3 by 1"19". Vingegaard in turn got 1'38" on him. I don't care about any one-day performance. I am curious why so many riders hit their peak fitness at 22 years old now. It makes you forget why the best new rider jersey exists.
In every generation the majority did not want to believe there was doping, and in every generation there was. As long as there is performance events there will be those willing to cross lines to perform better.
Unfortunately, any sport with a history of doping is gonna have accusations with exceptional performances. It happens in baseball, athletics, but Michael Jordan and Lebron James don’t get accused though being very exceptional athletes.
It’s possible for Pogacar and Vingegaard to be clean by the letter of the law, but they’ll never escape the question
Yeah...and of course the history of the sport is decided by the sport themselves and the NBA apparently can't catch anyone on doping (or just a few but I never hear anything about it 🙉)
Pogacar is mostly clean - not 100% but mostly. Jonas is doped to the max and you can see it on his face.
@@tongobong1 Pogacar is the most doped rider in the peloton. His sports directors are both known dopers and the UAE doctor is a known doping doctor.
Those "incredible numbers" like 7,6w/kg - they are not official. It's pure speculation - at best an estimatwd guess using uncertain data.
On Armstrongs podacst The Move, Chris Froome said, that people guessing his watts were almost always wrong, and often way off.
Vingegaard wasn't showing Armstrong level of dominance. He looked quite voulnerable at times, but they knew his strengths, Pogi's weaknesses so they came up with a plan that playd to his strenghts and stuck with it.
I think, either it's true: lighter & better bikes, better understanding of nutrition, training, rest o.s.a. accounts for the performances.
Or at least all of top 10-20 riders are doping.
We love attacks on every stage.
We love people performing 60 days a year full gas.
We love back to back mountains at 9% and more
Then... We expect athletes to be clean as child.
Come on, we are the first to need doped athletes.
No one would look at bodybuilding if they wouldn't dope. No one will watch cycling if cyclist didn't have small help from the doctor to perform
Protein shakes 😂 you two are the wrong blokes for doping talk.
As someone who lived through Lance, Pantani and Ulrich era i can with certainty say it was doping, but not only jonas does it ofc.
I agree yet i believe many people who doped slipped right past our noses..For example, Lance made himself a target by his mouth and attitude..
Yes Jonas was heavily doped on that race. On the other hand most cyclist now days are quite clean.
Would one of the most extreame but legal things be to have dermal implants under the skin to create an aero texture? Like the crazy body modification people but putting chevrons or aerofoils on your arm and leg skin?
Why Dope with the body, when you can put a battery in your bike 😅
Look, this is not a knock on the cyclist, but you'd be naive to think it's not happening. But look at the money, especially in cycling. It isn't so good in comparison to other pro sports, and if you're not winning, you're not eating so well, and part of the problem is us, the fans and viewers, we love our winners, want nothing less. And please don't say tech has made this big a difference, that's for the history haters and Kool-Aid drinkers..
Pogacar is on dope and his bike is too.
Like falling in love, you can decide to put yourself out there again after being hideously dumped/humiliated, and sign up to max enjoyment and happiness or be bitter forever and not get caught looking stupid/finding out last etc but never let yourself be happy again. 🤷🏻♀️ Yeah random but that’s how I see it. I just want to enjoy cycling. If I later find out they’re doping well, shit happens , I enjoyed it while it happened. 🎉
Let them eat cake!
You guys talked about football and doping, yes there are doping in football, in case you guys missed this one, i will tell you that in the last UCL that Sérgio Ramos played for Real Madrid the guy accused positive to EPO ;) And nothing happened. They cover ip up almost perfectly. I would love to see football and other elite sports have the bio passport that cyclists have. And football is a skill sport, you don't need to run lots to be a good player, in football the most important thing is the speed that you can make the ball roll, and you can't outrun a ball rolling ;)
It is naive to think that everybody is doping. Not EVERYBODY is a doper. Go watch chess if you think every single athlete is a cheater.
If it looks like dope, its dope.
Flat earther
It’s not a thing of the past …
TJV is leading in the usage of ketones!
There is no evidence what so ever that ketones are superior to a banana. Bananas taste much better.
JV only attack on stage 5 and beaten on sprint buy those 3 idiot who did not help him.. while pogascar kepts on attacking the rest of the stage.. until stage 17, and had the strengths again is stage 20
D-O-P-E-R
Everyone uses the same “extraordinary” performance narrative. No one wants to be the Greg Lemond & say “this isn’t right”. They all know what happened to Greg. The fact is that Pogacar had a extraordinary performance in that TT(and many other Performances)& he was handed his @%#. If no one is going to question Pogacar, then they damn sure should Jonas. Jonas beat Wout by almost 3 min. & Wout was trying to win that TT, as the rider who should have been the favorite. I just shut the Tour off, at that point. It was all too obvious, what was happening
Robobank renamed
UAE = Dr. Iñigo San-Millán, Gianetti and Matxin Fernandez. All known dopers.
J V's ride wasn't suspiciously great.the difference between his ride and Pogi's was to a great extent the fact that Pogi was ill and had a poor ride.
PED is d key 🗝️