We NEED To Talk About Motor Doping | GCN Tech Show 335
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- Опубліковано 16 чер 2024
- Mechanical doping on the rise again? In this edition of the GCN Tech Show, Dr. Bridgewood and Alex go on a deep dive into the ongoing investigations of the possibility of pro-teams using hidden motors in their bikes! Additionally, Shimano and SRAM release new groupsets, and new aero helmets from POC seem to be turning some heads in the tech side of things this week. Finally, more interesting comments of the week and did your bike make it to the bike vault!?
On Today’s Show 00:00
Mechanical Doping on the Rise AGAIN? 1:01
Hot and Spicy Tech 16:03
SRAM Red AXS #AD 17:36 thanks to @SRAM
Comments of the Week 23:22
The Bike Vault 26:49
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What do you think of the investigations in mechanical doping? Let us know in the comments below👇
tbh, i lost the will to live after the first 10 minutes of this segment!
Mandate one 🚲 for the entire professional race, and have the 🚲 x-rayed (backscatter van could do the entire TDF bikes in 20 minutes) afterwards. No replacement 🚲!
I'd put a magnet-free motor in the hub (SESM) and build the battery into the rim within the tyre (just wrap the layered lithium foil directly around the inside of the rim and then seal over with resin). Turned on and off by bluetooth. Hub powered through the spokes. No moving parts, no wires, no magnets, and easy to swap in just before the race starts. Battery runs flat, fake a problem and swap out the wheel. Unless they start checking the bikes mid-race it will never get caught. You could get 2hours sustained assist at 50w while only increasing the wheel weight by around ~1.2KG.
If you are going to do it, do it smart, sticking anything in the frame is going to stand out like a sore thumb. I could make something like this myself and this isn't my engineering field, I'm sure someone with the knowhow could make it even lighter.
I'll add that the last thing the UCI need is another scandal. This is way too much checking and costs, they know what is going on and I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't exactly being forthcoming with the degree of the problem.
Did you not pooh-pooh the idea not long ago?
The real question is ,”How serious are the authorities about investigating mechanical doping?” Cycling does not warrant or has not earned the benefit of the doubt.
Cycling doesn’t want another black eye right now, the authorities probably turning a blind eye.
Conflict of interest really from the uci
UCI doesnt want more problems so they couldnt care less.
Too busy measuring socks
Just back date the prescription right Lance?
I did the sound design for the Ghost in the Machine podcast. Really love working on it and working with Chris. I'm glad it's being talked about on GCN and thanks everyone for listening.
The lengths that teams went to for blood doping, this doesn’t seem far fetched … at all.
Well. Blood doping is "extending" the human physiology. It's tuning a proven parameter (red blood cells). Adding a motorized drive train in a super light racing bike that should a) output a significant amount of power for some time b) should not be a penalty when not used is something unsolved.
@@FuchsHorst For something in the range of 50W output (enough to make a big difference, not enough to be ridiculously obvious in a harder effort where riders would be doing 400W+ for a while), the motor itself could be very small. Modern battery chemistry would give maybe 20min at 50W output (100min at 10W, etc) for about 100g of battery, of course scaling with battery size. Could make the difference, something like 10% power boost for a significant duration.
i mean, they even brought family members of the riders into it (the ones with the same blood type) when they wanted to or even successfully got them as blood donors or hosts
The real question is whether the key suspects everyone has been talking about, Fabian Cancellara and Chris Froome, were doing this before UCI introduced any checks.
True, pumping blood out of plastic bags into your body.
The owner of a company sponsoring the Astana team has just been caught motor doping in a French amateur Masters race.
Yeah I saw something like that.
The pizza man. Didn't he run over a race official with his car fleeing the scene too?
It is also a "gcn story" from a day ago.
On GCN website *Amateur cyclist charged by police after suspected motor doping and hit-and-run on race director*
Not surprised
With the size of down tubes and bottom bracket shells now, that seems the place it would most likely be attempted vs the rear hub. Where I personally start squinting at the tele with suspicious glances in races is when heavy sprinters are on the front pulling their team leader over difficult categorized climbs 100km into a race... suddenly they're not just sprinters but super domestiques. When I raced bicycles on the amateur scene in the US years ago I was a sprinter who could climb marginally well by going into the red (ie anaerobic) on certain sections of climbs, and then hoping I hadn't burned all my matches yet by the time it got to the finish of the race, such that I could still pull off a decent sprint. If I would've had a small 40-50 watt boost on those same climbs I would've been able to stay aerobic much more on climbs and then I would've been arriving at the finish with a lot more firepower. I do have to say that there seem to be many more sprinters now who can magically climb a whole lot better and transform into super domestiques when their team leader is fighting for a leader's jersey. Despite being a cancer survivor, and American, and wanting to believe in Lance Armstrong, when I saw teammates like Frankie Andreu and Hincapie pulling on the front going up the second or third big climb of a mountain stage, and being able to keep climbers who had attacked up the road under control, I knew something was up. Physics is physics, and if doping was truly under control the pro pelton would've notably slowed down. Instead they continue to set records that simply cannot be explained even by adding up "marginal gains" and improvements in nutrition. Chemical or mechanical isn't really the point... what IS the point is that there is still tons of incentive to cheat. Lance's big "breakthrough" in doping was to inject micro doses of EPO directly into a vein versus sub-cutaneous injection, thereby reducing the "glow period" where you run the risk of a positive control to hours instead of days. Someone will have invented a very quiet motor that is not easy to detect with a scanner because the amount of money you could make with such a system would be astronomical... So I'm still a pro race watcher and a huge fan, but sometimes now I wonder if it's the more morbid aspects of it all that bring me back to the tele. Why don't you all do an episode about viewership numbers and ratings now as compared to during the height of the Festina affair? I bet scandal benefits the broadcasters to an extent. Imagine if Eurosport came out and said they were going to drop coverage because of doping? Then I bet stuff really would change meaningfully.
I think a simple solution would be to place the bikes in a parc fermé after the race for a technical inspection, like they do in motorsports.
It's like the easiest solution and it makes no sense why it has not already happened. As soon as you cross the finish line, your bike is quarantined by an official and inspected. How hard is this?
What if they win on bike three after two changes. For that to work one would have to ban bike changes, or have someone keeping track of the exact frames etc
Over a few hundred kilometers, you’ve got to watch each time a team car drops out of the caravan and then comes back to see if they’ve dropped off or picked up a doped bike.
@@JoshuaMarcAragonbecause the bikes need to be washed and fixed for the next day?
@@DaOneJoel true, that would make it more complicated. But not impossible. Also, you don't have to check all of the bikes of every rider. Maybe just the top ten, or a random rider of each team every day.
As an engineering student and an FPV drone builder and hobbyist, there are motors that can do well over 1000 watts of power in a package 20mm in diameter and 10mm height. Obviously this is not the ideal motor for the application but the power density is insane these days. Also that motor costs 20 quid, and a motor controller would be around the same. I can think of a dozen ways to "mechanically dope" my bicycle in my shed in a couple of afternoons. Give me a few grand and i can make it undetectable. Maybe contacts between the wheels and the frame for power, making the motor look like the already mechanically complex hubs etc. No doubt that multi million dollar companies are capable of far more. As an engineer this is very exciting.
I have also wondered how hard could it possibly be to manufacture a motor that is embedded in the bottom bracket and receives power from a battery hidden inside a special bidon, or perhaps embedded into the frame itself during manufacturing. Less than 50 Watts can make a huge difference, especially in the middle of a long stage when it would allow the rider to remain fresh compared to their rivals.
You could probably use the axles as wires for the motor.
With Shimano you have a battery in place (electronic group set)
@@perjensen1962 sure but the battery is so small that it's not really useful for something like this.
XD
The fact that they are testing for mechanical doping, for me, confirms it exists and is present at a pro level.
The UCI doesn't *WANT* to catch mechanical doping at a pro level, they'll face the same level of media scrutiny they did with the whole Lance debacle.
The UCI playbook is:
1. Make a show of the testing so it looks like we are trying to catch this.
2. Do the bare minimum tests, with enough warning, no never catch anyone.
3. Catch some low hanging fruit to claim the doping is isolated and that the testing works.
In support of your comment is the odd fact that, the last I heard, the UCI's bike inspection has never yielded a false positive. You'd think that a sufficiently sensitive system would be yielding an occasional false positive, yet in the nearly ten years since that one rider was caught, I have never heard of the UCI tearing down a bike to verify a positive test.
It's my belief that the UCI has learned, as you suggest, that catching cheats is bad for business.
@@johnhodge5871you make a good argument
they test for them because motors exist, not because they use them . they can be hidden now.. unlike some years ago. of course, you're going to make sure they're not used, because if you don't test for them, they will use them. its the chicken or the egg thing
@@drsus0 this is a more plausible theory.. the OP is a bit conspiratorial, it starts from a hunch and builds a whole reality on it :)
With regards to Lance - Listen to the interviews where people ask him about motordoping. He immediately defaults directly to “2003 Lance”, the only thing missing is the threat of a lawsuit. Personally, I’d think a guy having come 100% clean would be a lot less defensive about that sort of question. Read into it what you want, just found his reaction odd.
Explains why rider telemetry is such a closely guarded secret. The official reasons for hiding that data never cut it for me.
Ollie said a while back that rival teams can use your data against you. Like how much resistance and etc
I swear people in my Saturday group ride are motor doping 😂.
Exactly when I was in my 40s no one had these but I have noticed they are becoming more prevalent and powerful as I get older, what other explanation could there be.
@@mikemorris3421 EXACTLY Mike !! Can’t be anything but some form of doping. 😀
Every rider who passes me is obviously on a e-bike. That's my story and i'm sticking to it.
Kids today, I tell ya!
@@stevenmeyer9674ebikes just replace old-stylee motorpaced training. When one overtakes me I hop on his wheel for some high speed drafting! F'k ettiquette
This weekend I took part in an amateur race in France during which a rider was performing very suspiciously with a slightly modified frame. The commissaires wanted to check the bike, the rider took off in a car and almost killed the race director.
It's all very worrying.
For more information, read the article by Matos Vélo, a French journalist who wrote a very interesting article on this bike.
By the way, the rider in question is very close to the Astana team as he sponsors the team 😅
More information here www.globalcyclingnetwork.com/general/news/amateur-cyclist-charged-by-police-after-suspected-motor-doping-and-hit-and-run-on-race-director
This is wonderful. I want to be friends with that guy, he's got to be the worst kind of human.
I heard about this, that is some crazy shite! Guy went from cheating in an amateur race to being wanted for attempted manslaughter....jeez, that's some psychosis.
Same guy did it in 3rides Aachen Cyclo also
I don’t understand the mentality of these people. If you cheat you’re only lying to yourself. You’re also a liar. But I suppose there are some who will try and win at any cost. But imagine the humiliation if you’re found out.
If I wanted to put a motor in a bike I’d put it in the bottom bracket. Plenty of space for the motor, wires, battery and doesn’t get in the way of changing the rear wheel. Also explains monster chainrings
Electrical engineer here. Let's do a few calculations. A DI.2 battery has a capacity of 3.7 Wh (you can bet it's more than in the datasheet, it comes from Japan). That is for example 22W for 10 Minutes. Let's take 15W, we all know that this is sufficient to ride someone off the wheel. With DI.2 12 speed, you normally have a free socket to plug your motor in anyway. DI.2 is CAN bus so you also get your controls with the top buttons on the shifters for free. We are only missing the motor from the smallest of cordless drivers and a little bit of metal to drive the crank axle. It is very very possible. Like with the medical passport, it should be mandatory to deliver the power files to the UCI (there are ways to make modifying them very very hard) and those should be checked for abnormalies automatically.
Yep, I did some napkin math and I think 100g battery >= 10W for 100min using 200Wh/kg lithium. There are far better mechanical engineers out there than me, and I think with my own skillset I could cobble something together that would be moderately well-hidden with a reasonable budget. Di2 battery pack weighs 52g, if it was all lithium chemistry (and not also housing, electronics, etc) it would be good for ~10Wh. I was a doubter until I crunched numbers today, I now think it's quite feasible technically. My harebrained idea is batteries in shoes :D
They don't even need the power for that long. 50W for 1min is less than 1Wh. That's enough to make a difference and small enough to fit the battery in the through axel. Not long enough? Recharge when freewheeling and go again!
@@MikeyAntonakakis My high arched feet could store some Wh but I am not sure if I want the energy density wear a salt water producing thing. 🙃
Some directeur sportifs are evil, they would do this.
It can be taken even further, everyone rides with power now. It can only activate above a certain power output like when you are struggling to hang on, or trying to ride them off your wheel, or in certain gears like for a climb. Also the charging port for the Di2 can be hijacked to charge a separate battery. A tiny little 2200mh 3s hobby lipo holds 24wh of power, and is just 75*33.8*26.4mm in dimension. Go up to 4s, and you are at 32wh
The Cycling Highlights channel has just done a vid on a ‘masters’ over-40’s champion who was also done for having a motor in his bike. Its out there!
true. I was about to comment thus
But do you think it is happening at the top level of the sport?
@@gcntech I believe that’s likely, convince me it’s not.
@gcntech when haven’t teams or racers tried to cheat?
Of course it is happening. As has already been mentioned, the motors are easier to hide. You can build it into the wheel, crank, etc. what I think is harder to mask is the battery and required wires. But that will be via X-rays. X-rays on motor may fail as gears can be so complex. And electrical connections can be through frame. The risk to rider is that these one-off motors may not be very durable, and if they start to fail noise will give them away. But the bottom line is, given the history of bike racing, if someone *can* cheat they *will* cheat.
There are already prototypes for structural carbon-composite batteries and structural electrical transmission in carbon-composite parts.
@@AntonGudenus but knowing the chinese, they would mass market it rapidly, if viable
@@LoscoeLad The Chinese generally mass market only mature technologies, that can be produced in huge numbers. Structural carbon batteries are still in the early phase and would need specialized manufacturing lines for each individual part. Same goes for structural power transmission in carbon frames.
The market for „well hidden to the detriment of performance“ is similar to the market for F1 motors. You don’t need very many of them, and the individual units are super expensive and basically one-offs.
The consumer versions of hidden motors for bikes are already widely marketed and built. It’s just that those also offer „consumer levels“ of extra power and more convenience in charging and handling.
Instead of mechanical doping to gain an advantage for yourself, I could see a lot of fun to be had with adding a device to one's cockpit that disrupts radio signals in the immediate area of one's bike. Whilst you're running hardwired or mechanical shifting, cause a localized bluetooth dropout for the other riders with wireless shifting in a bunch and ride away from them while they languish in the wrong gear as the gradient pitches upwards.
High tension wires disrupted HR monitors back in the day
An evil directeur sportif (one of the old school EPO guys - you know who they are) could be a ridiculous new age Bond villain signal boosting into the entire bluetooth shift network frequencies to shift all gears to like 50x11 on steepest sections, and disabling bluetooth braking towards deadly cliffs as he chuckles with an evil grin as the car passes by the pink jersey sailing over the edge. He then gets on the radio using secret frequency to his lead rider "ha ha ha, we got rid of him, the jersey is yours tonight ha ha ha!". 1:56/8:08
It would bring new drama and excitement to the sport, a throwback to sci movies like rollerball but for road cycling.
Parachutes (with sponsor logos) would be optional.
I think the sport would really take off I think you'd get a lot of people tuning in.
Exactly why I went for Shimano last mechanical Dura ace groupset.
Kidding, like mechanics principle more than wireless and motors.
😂 clever 👍
@@bradford_shaun_murray… and in a matter of years, cycling would evolve into a kind of Robot Wars. 🤪 Brave new world!
Thanks for the super nice on my bike. Don't worry not a single scratch was caused by the bush. It was a nice soft one..
😉👌
English box by chance?
Great looking bike! Thanks for submitting it to the bike vault 🙌
@@gazobelle boxwood in deed.
The french gardening favorite for sculptured edges and baroque shapes.
Did cinema with Johny Depp too.
There's nothing like a nice soft bush.
There is a really good podcast with Greg Lemond , where he said he has seen Chris Froomes data , when he’s going up Mt. Vontoux , where his watts are decreasing but his speed is increasing , whilst going uphill . He’s convinced it’s been happening for years
Ventoux.
Not trying to second guess a legend, and haven't listened to that podcast (so maybe it was mentioned/accounted for), but there are two "normal" things that would contribute to that - first, aero drag would drop maybe 14% during that climb due to the elevation/density change. Second, looks like the climb levels out a bit towards the top. So at constant power, he'd naturally speed up towards the end.
Apologies,i've just left a comment saying the same, i hadn't seen yours.
I don't trust anything he says.
Greg Lemond is a bitter old fella
I was a huge skeptic of the practicality of this for a long time - but mainly because I was overestimating the power that motor doping would need to do anything useful, and because I wasn't thinking about how non-linear an athlete's power duration curve can be and how impactful it is to go "over the edge" (you simply have to give up and recover). I crunched some numbers and the rough estimate is something like *100g battery = 10W for 100min*, scale any factor as desired (assumes 200Whr/kg, reasonable for modern lithium).
An extra 50W for 20min at the end of big climb would make a huge difference in outcome. Or 20W for almost an hour to prevent from going over threshold power, or 100W for 10 minutes to stay out of the red zone. In terms of engineering, it would be tricky to hide, but not impossible... and 100g is what, like one fifth of a bidon or less?
Why would ? Search videos it’s a reality. You can even see the Hungarian guy showing one of his system.
Given the low frequency of testing, even the top riders could probably get away with motor doping, though not to win stages. Instead an interesting use case would be on the sprint stages, where GC riders know they aren’t going to to win, and they usually try to recover the best they can…what if they could do 20 less watts average over the day? Last year’s tour Pogacar burned out the last week, what if he had those 20 less watts on each of the sprint stages, maybe he doesn’t burn out? Also the inverse, a little motor assistance for sprinters during a mountain stage could mean the difference between making the cut or not…doubt anyone would be checking the groupetto for motor dopers.
The UCI Could also quickly stop this in its tracks. Motor doping, unlike blood doping, is concrete. You have a motor in your equipment, you are motor doping. UCI should come out and announce that any team found to be motor doping will lose their world tour license permanently. The risk would no longer be worth the reward.
If found let the entire team and sponsor be banned for some years before they are allowed back. Simple
My bad on saying Femke was dutch! we’d literally just got back from new york and i was rather tired! 🤦♂️😂
No problem! Best regards, a Belgian 😂
Welcome back Ollie 🗽
I have always doubted a nineteen year old girl would likely lack the mechanical savvy to fit that motor. For me, it was a team effort. Femke may not even have known. It could be set off with a helpers blue tooth.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on a podcast where Greg Lemond discussed motor doping. He mentioned how apparently there were tons of bike changes in the mid-2010s, and then it all stopped. I reckon that sounds like it was when motors were very common, before all these checks came in. Cancellara is the obvious one, but also Froome probably benefited quite a bit.
we forgive you Ollie. Femke doesn't
I have a neighbors who builds radio controlled turbine jets and helicopters, he fixes drones,
Carbon, electronics, servo, tiny motors, hiding wires wizardry , lightweight flat and flexible batteries… pumps, rocket fuel bladers tanks in pressurised enclosures…
A cheaters motor in a frame, no signature to the uci detector, an encoded radio control, all of wich is in his ballpark !
Have you ever had your neighbour take a look at installing one in your bike?!
@@gcntech in short 🩳 : NEVER
IN LONG : my first job was bike mechanic, it’s against my religion.
He does RC planes wich is basically the same stuff Orvil and Willbur W. did, no dark force in his Jedi code.
Life is too short to Frankenstein my systemsix mechanical dura ace, I prefer pedaling my time out than charging bateries, and it would not make it any lighter, not the right wizardry to make me fly up climbs on the broomstick 🧹 and live eternaly young.
The authorities have no interest whatsoever to investigate it. If someone was caught doing this, it would be the end of the sport. Sponsors would leave, teams would fold, cycling would be over. This is by far worse than normal doping. Hence any potential case at the top level would be swept under the carpet.
So true . Can’t tarnish the brand of the UCI ! They’ve been made to look like fools on more than one occasion.
why would they.....plenty of drugs have gone on over the years from all sorts of teams and people and none of that has put people off.....
Cycling is largely over as a mass spectator sport now for various reasons starting with the damage done by Armstrong.
Yeah, the UCI has now learned that you have to control things enough to make it appear fair, but handle all major cases internally to keep major scandals out of the press. Notice now all doping scandals now involve minor riders who can be held up as scapegoats without impacting the sport as a whole. Also, the biological passport has no objective standard for abnormality, which muddies the waters nicely.
I listened to the podcast first and then came to get your guys take on it. Great work as always - fascinating stuff
Two men with heavy jetlag has the uncanny feeling of them both being a quite drunk 😂
Hahahaha we're not 100% what the in flight refreshments were 👀
Can I get the name and number of the guy in Hungary please chaps! I’m not a racer, I just need to beat 5 friends on Sundays 😀
Given that speeds have eclipsed the EPO era, something is happening and it cannot be exclusively down to training and recovery improvements. People tend to forget that The Cannibal served a doping suspension and there's even hallowed cycling locations, with monuments, to people who died in races while doping. I love the sport, but we have to be honest with ourselves about it.
Yeah it is very suspicious when 2001-2006 record climbs are being broken. Like very suspicious.
100% agree. The speeds are ridiculously fast.
It's very easy to explain. The top riders are a lot smaller and climb much faster. Lance in his prime was around 76kg and Pogacar is 66kg.
Take any of the dopers of the era and they have a lot more weight and muscle on them. The doping was designed to make it much more likely they could output their best over a longer time. In the end, the watts/kg matters the most in a climb. On the flats you only need a couple larger/stronger riders to pull the rest of the team.
Then you have all the aero gains which are significantly more impactful on longer rides.
The peleton is faster now and so much so that the UCI is what's holding back cycling from being even faster.
@@viet0ne Isn't that normal for the UCI? They banned recumbents a century ago, which are much faster than a traditional bike under many circumstances.
I'm a bit torn on that. The EPO dudes did not eat anything on the bike compared to today. The difference that proper fueling makes is huge and anybody can try it out themselves. That said, I'm sure not everything is as clean and as fair as it should.
A spectator with a thermal camera could identify anyone using an electric motor in a couple of seconds.
Not necessarily. A motor hidden inside a frame isn't going to instantly heat up the surounding mass and give off enough ternmal radiation to be distinguishable. The smart move would be to package such systems as small and light as possible, such that they would only be usable for short bursts at critical times, and would cool down quickly. Compressed gas cooling could also be used easily to help control temperatures.
What?? Is Alex saying that he "doesn't" have a rear-powered hub in his spare parts bin? Sacre Bleu!!
maybe right at the bottom there is one
There has been a lot of speculation on mechanical doping for quite a while now. The first I remember hearing about it was with Fabian Cancellara in 2010
Cancellara very often changed bikes 30-40 km before the finish. For no apparent reason. I’ve always found that very suspicious.
Cancellara had a jet engine up his arse on the Muur in the 2010 Tour of Flanders.
Cancellara definitely used a motor. You don't just drop Tom Boonen like he's standing still. Chris Froome on Ventoux is even more obvious.
Do you think it's happening?
@@gcntech correct me if I'm wrong, but UCI and/or race officials are using pre and post stage heat detecting devices, such as FLIR, as well as xray to detect motors. In addition, I have heard, though cannot 100% confirm, that race officials are using FLIR type devices while on motorcycles and/or they have officials on the side of the road using stationary FLIR that scans the riders' bikes for heat signatures as they go by. If all this truly is happening I don't see how any pro rider could get away with this tech. If Pogaçar was using a mechanical device on the shortened rain stage, his bike where the mechanical device was located would be lit up like a Christmas tree on a FLIR device. With the pros now being subjected to biological passports for about 20 years now, I feel confident in saying that today's riders are most likely the cleanest we've ever seen and until someone proves me wrong any thoughts of doping, mechanical or synthetic, is just hearsay and slanderous.
Fascinating topic! One thing that came to mind instantly when talking about not being able to remove wheels with a potentially hidden hub motor is a connectionless system akin to what SON-SL dynamo hubs use. All it would take is a custom dropout to transfer power that is otherwise invisible to the naked eye.
yes! great point!
You've really thought about this 🤯
@@gcntech Some plonker sold me a SON-SL hub claiming it to be a standard dynamo, so this thing just haunts me collecting dust until I get a custom fork built.
The best approach would be to do a mid-drive system. There is more space where the crank spindle runs through the frame. The tubes on aluminum bikes are more than large enough to host lithium ion batteries. The controller could be put in the tubes as well. A Bluetooth "boost button" integrated in a speedometer. This would result with no wires being seen. This would allow wheels to be easily removed as well. Wrapping the motor in "Mu-metal" would shield the stray magnetic field from the magnets used in the motor. Even graphene (pyrolytic graphite) could be used, and it magnetically shields better than mu-metal.
Motor noise could be reduced by changing the current delivery via the three phase electronic speed controller (ESC). The motor makes greater noise when the coils are driven into "saturation". The ESC could be programmed smarter to avoid reaching saturation. This would also increase the number of miles it can be used. A coil in saturation draws a higher amount of current.
Yes, it could be built, but it would be pricy.
So awesome to have had you guys here in my city NYC. So good to know you participated GFNY.
'I'm not an expert when it comes to bushes'....hell yeah
Just watch Greg le-mond, he mentioned Chris Frome being suspicious because his power went down and speed went up from the released data, which is not normal, and riders changing up to 6 bikes on a stage.
Released data. Do you know lemond was losing the tour and he then got treatment for being anemic over night and started to win the next day.
@@douglasbooth6836 no but doesn't surprise me, when you look at the history of cycling, seems that everyone was on drugs
@@douglasbooth6836 Classic diversion, irrelevant to the discussion of Froome's suspicious data.
@@inkjazz why would I trust anything that comes out of his mouth if he’s lied for this long?
Lemond also claimed to have almost 7w/kg at his age and that his VO2 had not declined even though he's like 50 lbs heavier and looks like he never rides. A weird dude.
I love that glazed over look when Alex looks right into the camera lens, as Ollies in full flight, imploring someone to make it stop. LOL.
I am an electronic engineer and e-bike maker (from components). I would put the battery and motor in the seat tube - accessed through the top - driving the bottom bracket. A small motor 25 mm diameter and 80 mm long with an epicyclic gearbox about 20:1 ratio and a drive to the bottom bracket shaft with about a 5:1 ratio so 10000 rpm on the motor and 100 rpm on the crank... Battery: 18650 lithium ion cells can easily fit in the seat tube too but only inline so about 5 cells - that would be about 25-35 Watt-hours - so you would get 50 W for about half an hour (plenty for that last push to knock off the competition...) A 50 W drive is so small and light it isn't a problem. 250 g for the battery, probably about the same for the motor and gearbox. Easy! Not sure how loud it would be :)
Some of the ideas discussed are impractical. Electric machines have to turn fast and/or be big to be efficient. This is immutable. If they are small and light they have to turn faster. So wheel rim motor are a non-starter. There is a branch of engineering called Generalized Machine Theory... it covers all of this.
This sounds like you have given Ollie & Alex a project for the weekend!
You can mitigate this though with adding FLIR devices on many points of the race, maybe even the motorcycle riders to regularly scan the peloton. This would easily detect any anomalous heat signatures on the bike as any motor will produce heat, especially smaller ones since they can't shed off heat as quickly. On rain/cold stages these things would show up like a Christmas light.
10:30 UCI is also part of the conspiracy. They know who to search, when to search, and where to search. They can selectively 'avoid' choice celebrity riders.
absolutely. Just imagine if a top rider was caught doing it (Pogacar). It would be the end of the sport. Far worse than normal doping.
@@michiem9903 pogacar is just too fast, maybe too fast to be true
...same with drugs. Occasional scapegoats outed, but it's police and hackers that uncover cheating by the big names, not the UCI.
Maybe the UCI should make the penalty for cheating so high that no one would risk it. For example, anyone caught cheating themselves would have a lifetime ban, plus any the team and team principles would also face a lifetime ban. In addition any member of a team where the team or a team member has cheated looses all their results for a season. And maybe add some heavy fines for good measure.
The same could go for amateurs, you cheat you get a lifetime ban.
Poor Albert, his face as Ollie takes off with the geekery about how it could be done 😆
Ollie in his happy place... We asked him to leave the tin foil hat at home though
Looking forward to a GCN Tech video showing you how to fit a small motor to your bike
These comments are getting juicy! I cant wait to see Ollie tomorrow to discuss this can of worms
It's keeping us in a job!
Is it possible that the UCI would simply not make it public if they found someone motor doping? Of course this would be a massive scandal, and in many countries the sport still hasn't even recovered from the rampant blood doping in the early 2000s.
I think you’d do more damage to the sport hiding it and then it coming out 10-20 years later (like Armstrong etc), rather than announcing at the time and being able to say you’ve found it and therefore everyone can be confident that the rest of the peloton is legal.
Do you think it would be able to remain a secret? 👀
@@gcntech Secrets are easy to maintain. There is reason why people can't go to library see how to build a nuclear reactor 😅
@@gcntech why not, doping was for years. Huge amount of money from media companies means if anyone gave it away, they’re most likely to be dropped. We’ve seen this before in top level sports.
29.26 "Mike's laughing" - I was multi tasking and thought for a minute you were talking to me! Mike
been subbed to the podcast for a while, it's currently my favorite true crime podcast. and the fact that it's now moved to ongoing/realtime just adds to the suspense
Did people not have the same conversation about actual doping at the beginning! Surely not, can’t happen, too far fetched, who would etc! I think it’s probably more widespread than you would think! Tech these days is bonkers, your second topic started with “wireless tech” and then the third topic “hidden buttons!” Great thought provoking episode!
I think I'm going to start taking a shot every time GCN claims "105 is the Groupset of the People"
Careful, alcohol poisoning will ruin all that hard earned cycling fitness.
How you feeling?
I hope you don’t ride after! 👍
Haha Oli was on FIRE on this episode. Talking over Alex, he couldn't even get a word in 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Great to have Dr Olly providing the scientific perspective - love listening to him. A real asset to the GCN team
Just watched the show, went to look at the Giro Highlights and what is the headline for that stage …..”Electrifying Sprint”. Do they know something?😂😂
How about a challenge? These boys build a doped kit putting out over 100watts and do some runs. C'mon boys, show us how it's done
This sounds like it could be an interesting video!
There was a look of instant realisation as soon as the phrase "I'm not a Bush expert" slipped straight out 👀😄
Cancellara's seated sprints back in the day were very suspect to me.
Without needing to recharge, a battery technology like Lithium - carbon fluoride (Li-CFx) can offer much higher power density than people would see on a typical e-bike.
A lot of the super high specific energy batteries like that have really low power output, though I'm not familiar with Li-CFx - a quick search looks like it might have just enough power output to work for this application!
Watching this show as 2x speed is hilarious, Alex sounds like he has had 10 cups of coffee. And Ollie now speaks at a normal speed.
Go back and watch Jonas in the TT at last years TDF. You can see the bike is pedalling him. Or, WVA after burying himself at the front on one of the climbs for Jonas......he blows up, goes out back and starts zigzagging. He get a bike change, catches up and goes back to the front for Jonas.
I'll never forget the way Contador rode away from the Schleck brothers on a climb in the Alps, staying in the saddle and just smoking everyone. Didn't seem real.
He was on drugs. This is why I dislike the use of him in commentary.
@@douglasbooth6836Who cares? The only thing that might help is more stringent rules now or open doping and we move on. I enjoy the show regardless.
@@alpsalish I care and many do like gcn as my comment has been removed.
UCI should check Pogs knee. There could be a motor.😅
He’s got the best.
Talent could be confused with doping here 😂
@@erichweggelaar1320how?
When you had the comment about been recognised. Made me think.Earlier this year I bought a used bike from a LBS in the West Midlands. It is however a highly destinctive bike. As it is a pink and green Orbea Rallon. Which GMBN presenter Blake Samson would have most likely taken to GMBN Mega Base. The funny thing is. I've had it since February and only one person has asked if it's an ex-GMBN bike. I am also wearing a GMBN race top while riding the bike.
Another great show. I agree, a (sponsor neutral) video on the best road bike anti theft tracking alternatives and ‘tag’ hiding alternatives would be great.
I could have sworn Alex said “The new Shimano Durex” . I wonder if it’s feather lite, 😂
I like it, Di2 batteries are overpowered and to big for the pro's. I mean you carry enough battery for weeks of shifting up all the hills. Just use that power in an actual classified hub (hehe). I mean, the cables are already hidden why not? Just scrap the front derailleur and use the engine assistance up the hills.
Rear wheel with Mahle X20 hub motor can be removed without disconnecting any wires, a special connector is installed on chainstay
"I'm not an expert when it comes to bushes" 🤣
You can have motors without permanent magnets also for the BB motor and in frame battery you don't worry about wheel changes or wiring. X-rays could be the only way or thermal cameras during the race
True but what about the additional weight and resistance? Given that the doping solution would output 50W for a very short time e.g. a climb, that's a lot to carry.
I have race multiple cyclocross national events, and they walked around the start line and scanned your bike with a thermal camera
@@gozzio6649 thermal camera at the start might not detect anything but it's nice to hear they're checking
@@FuchsHorst weight is not that big of a penalty for low power. And with low power even low capacity might get you decent runtime.also that weight will be outweight by the power delivered exactly during the climb. It's not only a 50w extra it might be 25 extra and 25w less effort and we know that fatigue is non linear and taking 25w of the top perf has a big effect.as for resistance it depends if there's a clutch. And in no permanent magnet solution there wouldn't be any electromagnetic breaking but I don't know how feasible such solution would be at that size and power constraints. It's an interesting topic that warrants a deeper look.
@@Przemo-c Motorcycle riders on known large races like the TdF actually have motorcycle riders fielding portable thermal cameras as well as static thermal cameras between random points on the race. Adding xray before and after the race could be pretty easy to increase checks. Maybe even mandate to chip all bikes including spares to tag all the bikes that were used during a race for inspection. On F1 and motorcycle racing all bikes get quarantined after a race, so it's not really that new.
On this kind of sensitive stuff, it's crucial to get your facts right! She was from Belgium; she wasn't Dutch. The picture even shows her in a Belgian jersey.
BelgiaN. She isn't a country. ;)
We should have a challenge where everyone creates a hidden motor system as best they can and then have a race with random people to see of they notice🤣
I counted 48 times in the motor doping part of this video where Alex looked at Ollie and was genuinely thinking, “Ollie, for once, please, stfu!”
The odd couple showed up for this one.
Yeah judging by the fact that last time he compared those who talk about mechanical doping to flat earthers, now that everybody realizes how easy it is to accomplish this, he's going on full denial just to sell belief in the absolute purity of this sport
There was a clip of that female cyclocross rider coming off, and her rear wheel kept spinning (unnaturally,not a hint of it slowing down)
Regular bicyclist here. A small motor with 50 W or so in the rear hub or in the bottom bracket, combined with a lightweight battery that provides power for just a few km, used only for assistance on steep sloops ... the entire system at a reasonable price, that's actually something I'd buy.
I've got a Domane+ (AL5) and on long group rides (70+ miles) where I'm really pushing my own limits, kicking in the motor on a 10% setting for an extra 0-25 watts makes a real difference in endurance. Those few little watts let you keep going in recovery mode without dropping the pace or mitigate the effect of a headwind/hill. Not something that I can keep on the whole route, but makes a massive difference when used strategicly. Its also been good for pulling a group along in a strong headwind.
The motors not being magnetic, while not being in use, could actually be solved relatively easily, by having motors, that use electromagnets both for the stator and the rotor. So as soon as the system is powered down, there is minimal magnetic flux.
Providing power to them could be solved by having terminals in the axle mount. Especially if we are talking about carbon frames, this could also solve the problem of power transmission and x-ray visible cables, as carbon-composites can be made very electrically conductive. All the while glass-composites are electrical insulators. So you basically could build the frame, like you'd build a PCB, including conductor and isolator strands in the frame.
Which brings us to the battery. If you want to be really sneaky, you could actually make the cabon frame the battery, as there are structural carbon-fiber composite batteries, which are developed for the car-industry.
So all that's left is the control electronics. Which you could relatively sneakily hide inside a custom PCB for the electronic gear shifting system, which is connected permamently to the frame anyways, and could use hidden terminals in the frame. This also solves the problem of having a special and discoverable button, as you could program the shifting-pedals to activate and deactivate the motor.
And the only way you really could find out, that such a system was used, would be by dissasembling the hub, the electronic shifter, or by using a very high-resolution and powerfull x-ray machine. Other than that, maybe you could get a hint, by driving alongside the bike in action and taking a thermal picture of it. But that only would provide a hint, due to the frame or hub being a little too hot, not a conclusive proof. Especially if the system is only providing in the low 10s of watts.
This seems like someone has put some thought into this 😊
@@zedaprime That's what happens, when you love solving puzzles and have a background in engineering.
Or to quote some interesting papers pertaining to our current puzzle:
- "Designing Low-weight Switched Reluctance Motors for Electric
Multirotor Propulsion System", by Biczyski, et al.
- "FiberWire: Embedding Electronic Function into 3D Printed Mechanically Strong, Lightweight Carbon Fiber Composite Objects" ,by Swaminathan, et al.
- "A Structural Battery and its Multifunctional Performance", by Leif, et al.
Also, IIRC, Mahle has a production road bike system that *does* have terminals in the axle mount. Granted, they can be much larger terminals because they're not trying to hide it, but.
Nice thinking
Adding thermal checkpoints could easily mitigate this as well as portable FLIR devices for the motorcycle riders. Any anomalous data immediately gets quarantined for disassembly and checks. If you wanna be rigorous, you could include high resolution xray machinery before and after the stage race. Place all bikes including those tagged as anomalous onto the machinery, maybe even mandate all power files to be sent for inspection to the UCI after races, then create an algorithm to detect anomalous data by checking speeds, power, and HRM. This should help narrow down the bikes that needs complete disassembly. Mandate all bikes including spares needs to be tagged with a chip that gets pinged between random points on a route so we can determine when bike changes happen as well.
LeMond has pointed to the frequency that riders will do a bike swap for a single stage 😮
Are they swapping into full charged bikes?
*Also, saying something is too far-fetched... I'll never forget hearing about riders having to get up in the middle of the night to get blood that was too thick to start moving again.
or maybe a bike which is lighter? different gearing?
@@gcntechEither way, it's not quite cricket
I would say potentially changing into a bike with a motor from a bike that didn't
@@marklagan8827 the first swap for a bike with a motor and each change after for a recharge?
Back in the epo days cyclists were dying in their sleep owing to thick blood and low resting heart rate. Its plausible that was a thing for those jacked up on epo who wanted to stay alive.
Ollie is really concerned about other people’s Bushes during the Bike Vault. 😂
He's a great neighbour 🤣
I enjoyed your video! Good stuff! Okay, of course a motor on a bike is doping, and all chemical substances and blood transfusions are doping. But, what about advanced technologies, hight tech, top food products created in laboratories, bicycles that only a few teams can afford, what can we call all this?
Progress.
When it comes to mechanical doping in modern competitive cycling, it’s a bit like my own arse. I just can’t see it myself. Not without a lot of help.
Jonas used this probably on a last Years "supernatural" TT on TDF!
😂
No, he’s further than that - they’ve actually developed a working flux capacitor creating a kind of non resistance field around him.
He stayed off the brakes on that stage, unlike other competitors, having trained and trained again on that course.
Ollie's no bush expert, I can believe that! LOL
This all seems like something of a fantasy. I only say that as it would need so many staff on a team to be in on it without anyone blabbing! Logistically, the way teams work and the way bikes are transported to races and back to service courses etc, just make this so hard to believe it could be possible.
Oliver to me looks like he knows what he is talking about regarding the hidden motor issues,which are mostly technical.Alex sounds a bit naive and not particularly interested to know how they can fit.
Are we saying Ollie has been using one?!
They were the odd couple during thos report.
Conspiracy theories and bike tech! Ollie is in his happy place here 🤣
This is why I love Ollie, he’s really a logical thinker
It is because of his friend's podcast.
Alex has only opened up a "can or worms" in his own brain.
There are very, very smart people out there (I retired from 25 years with Siemens, holy cow I could not believe the smart people) - if they apply their skill, I promise you that no wires would be needed from the hub to the battery. And the programming for an automatic controller wouldn't be hard. I expect that guy overseas that you mentioned has all this figured out.
At the four UCI GFWC world champs I’ve been too they’ve scanned my TT bike before every race in the paddock where you’re not allowed to leave. Assuming the challenges are great with a large road race/gravel race.
I would definitely recognize you two, and would definitely geek out and say "hi", maybe even ask for autographs. You're famous!!
So where do they order these motors, so I can avoid those websites..? Asking for a friend with a tough group ride coming up
They probably make them by themselves. 3d printer and some coil wire and magnets maybe(magnets are optional). Nothing too fancy needed to make a motor.
The shrub looks like some sort of boxwood, maybe.
If you give a world class rider even a 5% aid by adding a motor, it would be a substantial boost. Normal recreational riders wouldn't really notice it, but a Tour rider would.
You should try to get some bike enthusiast engineering UA-camr like Tom Stanton to build a proof of concept for the concealed hub motor
Week 63 of asking for a "The UCI has no jurisdiction here t-shirt"
Can we get to 100?
You could wire to the dropouts, one side + one side - then voltage is across the hub. No wires to motor it's conducted through the dropouts. Little dcc shaded pole motor in the hub, 10- 20 watts would be a big lift in performance
That bush is a good bush. It looks like it could be Box. Perfect for topiary, but susceptible to Box blight, which that one didn’t have. Super nice bush!
Thanks for the info!
@@gcntech 🤣🤣🤣
Nicely trimmed bush
Smoke another blunt
Yes please
My take is this: is it feasible that the whole process could remain hidden? How many people are involved, and how would they all remain silent? If I were a dodgy character in this process, I would keep evidence to be released at a later date. They can't all be being paid enough to stay silent... can they?? This is (perhaps) not directly comparable to the drugs issue, where you could have applied the same logic. i.e. a one-to-one relationship with no need for ongoing hiding of physical evidence. A bike with a motor could potentially pass through multiple hands in the course of a race. How could you be sure that it stays clear of outside scrutiny in moments of stress/chaos, etc? Imagine a crash where a bike is broken into pieces... how do you not spot a motor or wires or controls or batteries? After all, crashes are commonplace. Are we suggesting that no doctored bike has ever been involved in a crash, revealing it's secrets? Cameras are everywhere; someone would have filmed/photographed this. This is where it doesn't add up. Surely concrete evidence would be there.
Perhaps I'm being naive.
Yes, Turns 100, I think you're being naive!
Mate, they're literally talking about it in the most famous bike podcast, it doesn't seem that silent to me
I'm sure somebody at the UCI was tipped off about Femke at Zolder in 2016......Her performance at the Koppenbergcross a few months earlier was an eye opener......
The first time i heard of this was on a Pro Tour road race. One of the riders crashed, and his back wheel started spinning wildly. The bike was on its side, and the rear wheel came into contact with the ground and the bike spun around.😅 Busted!
I wish i remembered the rider.
Femke Van Den Driessche violated the anti-doping rules and was banned but she was not caught riding the e-bike. There is no proof that motordoping was used during a race yet.
And she’s from Belgium, she’ not Dutch.
Considering a hub motor small like that will heat up pretty quickly from load and will add to resistance when the tiny stealthy battery runs out, I really doubt motor doping is even viable, unless someone is using a small capacitor and disengage-able as a form of kinetic recovery system... which is still in long term weight disadvantage.
Watching Pog roast the entire peloton in the Giro this year, something is going on either physiologically or mechanically. I find it hard to believe that he is THAT much more fit and capable than so many of the other riders in that race.
How come you guys always suspect Pogacar, but not Vingegaard? Do you think if tables turned and there was Jonas instead of Pogacar in this Giro that he would do any less damage in the Giro's GC? Tadej has been exceptional since he was a junior, so much so that he started competing in category higher than his own. So what he did in this Giro is nothing special for his abilities and form. Right now even Jonas in his best condition would have lots of work to win against Tadej. Watch UAE's training camp rides and you'll see how many watts they're pushing with ease and you'll understand.
@@shadowsun33 You assume I don't suspect Vinegaard or any other rider. I've been following pro cycling for 50 years and am always suspicious of everyone.
Some tidbits of information;
Bushes are woody plants with several perennial stems that may be erect or may stay close to the ground. They usually have a mature height of less than 15 feet and stems no more than about three inches in diameter.
The study of bushes is called dendrology.
What do you get when you cross a botanist with a gynecologist? An expert about the bush.
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush…..or bicycle it is GCN
I wonder if a powermeter could detect motor-use. If the speed are higher than it should compared to the power in the pedals, then we can get an idea of motor helping.
I'm sorry, I know that Pogacar is a great rider, but he passes other professionals going up 7% climbs like they are standing still and he looks like he is going 100 mph, just look at stage 15 as he is passing George Stienhouser with 9 km to go, it was incredible, truly! Not accusing, just saying that I would wish that his bike was checked as soon as he crossed the line.
I’m with you and don’t forget he’s barely breathing when he finishes
You just have to look at the way he pedals uphill - stage to Monte Pana, last 2 km with average gradient of 12%. High cadence, no body rocking, still and smooth, barely breathing, absolutely effortless, whereas the others are grinding their teeth and barely turning the cranks.
You don't need to be Einstein to see that Pog's performance is unreal - that is because it is. G knows it and so does everyone else in the peloton.
@@stephenbradshaw9126 even his saddle position is unreal. It must be pointed down something like 10 degrees on hilly courses.
I'm afraid that for the first time since 1986 (and I know this must include Armstrong) I have stopped watching a Grand Tour mid way because there is absolutely zero jeopardy which is a death knell for viewers. Even the commentators who have to walk a fine line are saying that performances are incredible- which has two meanings - and I can't remember the name of one on Eurosport who is a former pro (not Kelly) who is saying that he has never come across such enormous winning margins. No evidence of course but it offends common sense.