What was said in the video is actually not entirely correct. Or rather it omitted many important facts. The french were given plenty of options to choose from when they recieved the british ultimatum, and they choose to do absolutely nothing (the worst option). The british government gave the French fleet the following 5 options: "1. Sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans. 2. Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. If either of these courses is adopted by you we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation if they are damaged meanwhile. 3. Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans unless they break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies - Martinique for instance - where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated. If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships yourself within 6 hours. Finally, failing the above, I have the orders from His Majesty’s Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German hands.” Reminder, the US was still neutral at this time and it was unlikely that this would change anytime soon. The french were given 5 options to choose from, with the 6th being a british attack. They did absolutely nothing, thus invoking said attack. The worst part is that the French Admiral Gensoul refused to see the person sent by the british (a captain). He felt insulted that he would have to speak to a person of lower rank. The reason the british admiral Somerville sent a captain was that that captain spoke perfect french, so the risk of something being lost in translation was supposed to be low. But the french admiral sent a low ranking officer instead, which caused confusion and cost a lot of time, which was running dangerously low while the negotiations were still underway. But what is even worse is that the head of french naval operations, Admiral Darlan, had given specific orders that should such an ultimatum ever be sent, the commanding admirals should choose the option that would sent the fleet to a neutral nation, preferrably the US, if that was part of the Ulitmatum. What did the french admiral in charge of the fleet at Toulon, Admiral Gensoul, do? He radioed to the Vichy Government, and told them he was given only 2 options, namely handling the fleet over to the british or sink it. He did NOT mention the options to sail it to a french port and be disarmed, or sail it to a neutral nation like the US for the duration of the war. The Vichy Government, only kowing about those 2 options and fearing retaliation by the germans, gave the order that the fleet should NOT be handed over to the british and should NOT be scuttled; leaving a battle against the british fleet as the only option. This was one instance, the Battle of Mers El Kabir. In other ports, the negotiations went smoothly, with basically the complete rest of the french fleet being disarmed or handed over to the british. The person who bears the most responsability for this attack is the French Admiral Gensoul, who completely failed at every possible step.
Also one of the reason why Pétain choose Vichy over other more develop city was because it was the only French city that was big enough to host the entire governement , politicaly stable (unlike other city like Lyon who had an important communist presence) and close to Paris to make it look like Pétain was almost the boss of France (he was not).
Did Petain do anything wrong actually or was he just playing the best hand he could with what he had? Seems almost like a lose-lose situation for him where pissing off the Germans or the Allies are an equally bad move for what was (at the time) what remained of France.
@@SilverFang2789 Petain was trying to make the best of a disaster situation for France,in our timeline he was arrested, had axis wont he would technically rule a independent but member of the axis France.
@@SilverFang2789 A difficult answer with a hard answer. On one hand Pétain had to deal with a destroy country in a Europe that looked like it will be under nazi control for the next century. So he couldnt openly oppose Berlin. On the other hand he was extremly zealous in his collaboration and hd did went farther that what the Germans asked of him on many occasion such as offering French troop to fight Stalin
@@SilverFang2789 Petain is... controversial, the intent in itself sure looks Noble, make sure France survives a conflict it lost after many germans were humiliated by Versailles 1919, thats well decent, from a patriotic point of wiew wishing for your country to survive to see the new Europe no matter who won, at that time likely Germany, yea sall good. Thing is he didnt just want France to see the next day, he also wanted a place of choice in said new Europe, which is why his governement started preparing jews to be rallied and all for possible deportation purposes before Hitler even asked for them, and he was a collaborator to the core in more than one aspect, which is terrible too. He did alot of things wrong, the only thing we can give too him is that he managed in extremis to pull a Talleyrand and keep the majority of France together while joining the victors of their war, which means in case of actual German victory (impossible challenge ik) France would suffer alot less afterward compared to the other defeated great powers
@@Snp2024 Patton never said that, Patton was a francophile who spoke french and was friend with french general Leclerc, he held France in high regard, this "quote" was made up by the republican and former Secretary of Defense James R. Schlesinger on fox news, he said that after France refusal to go in Iraq, unfortunately with newspapers and the internet, people wrongly attribute this quote to Patton.
Vichy France did not cease to exist in 1942. The Germans invaded, yes, but it maintained similar limited control over all of France as it did before only in the German occupied zone. Its institutions remained largely intact, just embodied by a new man, named Laval. It only really came out of existance in 1944. I made this mistake in a presentation at university once to think that it lasted until 1942. The professor made sure, I'd never forget :)
I mean Laval had already been head of government in 1940 but had been dismissed. The Germans wanted him back because he was an ardent advocate for collaboration and they felt he served their interests best, so he was reinstated in the summer of 1942, before the invasion.
@@LegiyonEhellout It was in France, a class about French history and the professor was a well established French historian, doing research and what not. It was an Elite university ("grande école") and he had corresponding expectations, saying all the time, you study here, so you need to be UHMAZING. He is from the kind of generation that does not care about privacy or social structures at all, so he would just evaluate my presentation in front of the entire class in a 15 min monologue. Fist positive things and then something like, "there is just one problem about your presentation: that is WRONG" and then go on to explain why it sucked. He did not even give me a grade, he said he could not evaluate it like that BUT then gave me a second chance, because I am not from France, so he assumed I couldnt have known better (as if my non French origin would have been excuse for the bad research lol). So I needed to give the presentation again xD I will never forget it because I spent 15 min sitting in class while the professor roasted me with his conservative french ruthlessness....
I cannot get over how you manage to slip in such tiny details of accuracy. You always get the rifles right for the time of conflict, but at 1:28 showed the Canadian flag with green leaves, not the later red ones. (It was changed in 1958 to "The Red Ensign" and in 1963 to "The Maple Leaf".) Whoever does your research is to be commended.
The colonial map was not quite perfect, as it left out Syria and Lebanon where the British and Australians fought a bloody campaign against the Vichy French.
As you mentioned, the Vichy regime, officially called the French State, had nominal control of the “zone occupee” in the north despite being powerless puppets of the Germans, while only exercising real power in the “zone libre”. However to add to this point, once Germany and Italy garrisoned the rest of France the Vichy Petain regime did not dissolve but instead continued, now as a powerless puppet of the Germans in both the north and south zones (as opposed to being unoccupied in the south and a puppet in the north as before).
Yeah, and from what Ive heard and seen from people Ive talked to Petain is not well liked compared to de Gaulle. Which to me as an American is rather strange considering both men had very questionable sides to them. It jsut so happened Petain was stuck as the blame goat being the Axis puppet.
@@chazbrown1139 A lot of Americans like Thomas Jefferson, but deeply hate Jefferson davis, despite both leaders being slaveowners. A lot of People would forgive the heinous crimes if you had contributed something great to the nation/people.
@@chazbrown1139 Well, as a French, Petain is disliked for its collaboration with Nazi Germany and its role in the antisemitic laws, the deportation of foreign and French Jews and political opponents to extermination camps, as well as the infamous STO (mandatory work service) which forced young French people to go work in German factories, with a terribly bad deals since multiple workers were required for one POW to be released from POW camps. De Gaulle never had such bad sides, and is pretty much the one who fought for French sovereignty when some of the Allies (looking at you Roosevelt) wanted France treated as a defeated Axis power. The two are just not comparable. Petain was a great hero of WWI but committed high treason by his actions during WWII (even though he probably thought at the time he was doing the right thing). De Gaulle on the other side is a great hero of WWII and continued by redressing the country both from 1944 to 1946 and from 1958 to 1969, keeping a democratic France even though he was appointed as a reaction to an attempted coup by part of the army in Algeria in 1958.
@@othian2567 Alors selon le roman national tout ce que tu dis est exact, mais officieusement l'histoire est un peu plus complexe que ça et pas aussi manichéenne concernant ces deux hommes. Il est compliqué de juger une époque que l'on a pas vécu, surtout par des choses subjectives racontées par d'autres personnes.
@@Quent5000 Oui c’est sûr, il y a des parts d’ombre pour chaque personne ayant compté dans l’histoire. D’ailleurs De Gaulle n’en voulait pas tant que ça à Pétain, il lui trouvait facilement des excuses, et il a bien sûr beaucoup participé à « dissimuler » une bonne partie des collaborateurs pour maintenir l’image d’une France résistante et favoriser la réconciliation nationale. Je résumais rapidement pour un étranger la différence de vision entre les deux hommes, particulièrement parce que beaucoup de gens meme en France ont en tête le roman national 👍 Et il est effectivement compliqué de juger une époque, particulièrement lorsqu’on connaît nous l’issue et qu’on est pas dans l’incertitude de savoir dans quelle direction l’histoire va évoluer. Les hommes qui ont vécu cette période n’avaient pas le luxe en 1940-43 de savoir comment la guerre allait se finir, ni pour certains ce qu’il se passait dans l’Allemagne nazie.
I'd like to see a video on how Korea had managed to stay independent until 1910 despite being sandwiched between two larger and more powerful empires. I know Japan spent a lot of it's history with internal Clan feuds and it's first attempt to conquer the peninsula was forced back by Joseon and Ming forces during the Imjin War at the end of the 16th century, but given that China went through expansionist phases as well and it's Emperors saw themselves destined to be mankind's universal rulers, why didn't they take over their smaller neighbour?
They were independent but still tributary/protectorate changing hands between Ming/Qing/Russia/Japan At the time of the formal annexation in 1910, Korea was already a puppet state of Japan since the end of the 19th century
Love Canada's "Bite me." Also, it is longstanding British naval policy to not allow a powerful neutral country's fleet to be used against them when that country is invaded or being threatened by a hostile mainland European power. This is why the British bombarded Copenhagen during the Napoleonic Wars and seized the neutral Danish fleet to prevent Napoleon from replacing his own losses after Trafalgar, after it appeared Denmark was either going to be invaded by France or join their side.
What was said in the video is actually not entirely correct. Or rather it omitted many important facts. The french were given plenty of options to choose from when they recieved the british ultimatum, and they choose to do absolutely nothing (the worst option). The british government gave the French fleet the following options: "1. Sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans. 2. Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. If either of these courses is adopted by you we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation if they are damaged meanwhile. 3. Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans unless they break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies - Martinique for instance - where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated. If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships yourself within 6 hours. Finally, failing the above, I have the orders from His Majesty’s Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German hands.” Reminder, the US was still neutral at this time and it was unlikely that this would change anytime soon. The french were given 5 options to choose from, with the 6th being a british attack. They did absolutely nothing, thus invoking said attack. The worst part is that the French Admiral Gensoul refused to see the person sent by the british (a captain). He felt insulted that he would have to speak to a person of lower rank. The reason the british admiral Somerville sent a captain was that that captain spoke perfect french, so the risk of something being lost in translation was supposed to be low. But the french admiral sent a low ranking officer instead, which caused confusion and cost a lot of time, which was running dangerously low while the negotiations were still underway. But what is even worse is that the head of french naval operations, Admiral Darlan, had given specific orders that should such an ultimatum ever be sent, the commanding admirals should choose the option that would sent the fleet to a neutral nation, preferrably the US, if that was part of the Ulitmatum. What did the french admiral in charge of the fleet at Toulon, Admiral Gensoul, do? He radioed to the Vichy Government, and told them he was given only 2 options, namely handling the fleet over to the british or sink it. He did NOT mention the options to sail it to a french port and be disarmed, or sail it to a neutral nation like the US for the duration of the war. The Vichy Government, only kowing about those 2 options and fearing retaliation by the germans, gave the order that the fleet should NOT be handed over to the british and should NOT be scuttled; leaving a battle against the british fleet as the only option. This was one instance, the Battle of Mers El Kabir. In other ports, the negotiations went smoothly, with basically the complete rest of the french fleet being disarmed or handed over to the british. The person who bears the most responsability for this attack is the French Admiral Gensoul, who completely failed at every possible step.
@@xxnightdriverxx9576 That just answered my question of why the French didn't inter their fleet with the US or sail to another Free French port. Thanks!
@@xxnightdriverxx9576 Well, the British government told the naval people to give the options, but they left out the "hide out in France for the rest of the war" bit because l'anglais
Visited Vichy 15 years ago out of curiosity. It's a town that pretends it was never the capital of a vassal state - no plaques or mentions of 1940-44 anywhere, & the tourist information centre had zero suggestions as to which buildings had been used during that period. And my car got drenched in a tsunami of bird poo, but that was probably just coincidence 😖
I've been to the Italian equivalent, Salò on Lake Garda, de facto capital of the puppet Italian Social Republic between 1943 and 1945. There at least they do point out the various buildings used as ministries, and the villa where Mussolini lived.
@@davidcook8065 I went to school with my friend David Koch. That would have been my exact name too if my grandfather had not gotten tired of American mispronunciations offending his ears.
@@davidcook8065 Yes, I get "Is that with an 'e' ?" The asking depends a lot on the ratio of German respelled Kochs to English Cookes ancestry in the area. Most Brits and people in Tidewater Maryland and Virginia will tack the 'e' on without even asking me. The highly German areas of Minnesota even go so far as to ask me if it is Koch or Cook.
@@BaguetteGamingOfficial C'est surtout l'utilisation du mot « cringe », qui est cringe. Quant à se prononcer en faveur de la victoire de la Russie, ou de celle des États-Unis... pourquoi faire ? Se mettre du côté de ceux qui attaque un pays limitrophe de l'UE ? Ou du côte de ceux qui détruisent notre industrie ? Nous n'avons d'amis ni à l'Ouest, ni à l'Est.
I can also imagine that arming a whole lot of your former enemies went down like a cup of cold sick with the Wehrmacht. I mean, how many of those weapons would end up "lost" and being used against the occupiers.
Forgot to mention that Vichy France was occupied by the Axis after the Allies invaded Neutral French North Africa, in response to which the Germans attempted to seize the French fleet. Petain, despite having been invaded by the Allies, refused to allow the fleet to fall into German hands and ordered it to be scuttled, which probably did more to win WW2 for the allies than anything the previous French government had done
@@ChrisCrossClash I would think doubling the size of your surface fleet navy would be tremendous. “I mean, the Czech industry and equipment wasn’t anything special. The British and French would have no problem destroying it.”
@@ChrisCrossClash The French fleet had more battleships than the Italians, numerous heavy cruisers and state of the art light cruisers, its destroyers were among the most versatile and dangerous of all belligerent. The French navy of 1940 was truly a sight to behold, but sadly it did not have the destiny it was cut out for and ended on the bottom of the sea by the hands of its own sailors without fighting.
@@zacharytracy3797 The US by that point had tripled its pre-war navy size. The Germans, 'doubling' theirs, is less ships than the US had alone pre-war. Never mind the US and UK had technological superiority in virtually every area, where they didn't was wherever the Germans were hoping to generate a wunderwaffe that would win the war for them, focusing all their effort on that one thing while slowly being overwhelmed elsewhere.
0:26 "Mussolini celebrated by visiting Milan where he stated how much he liked the Piazzale Loreto and how he hoped to hang around there one day." 😄😆😂🤣
Bit of an oversight not to mention that the cause of Italo-German occupation in Nov 1942 (Case Anton) was the invasion of Vichy-controlled North Africa in Operation Torch. Landings which were, at least in part, opposed, though I suppose the political situation there is a bit too nuanced to cover satisfactorily in a 3 min video. Vichy also actively fought campaigns against the Allies in Syria-Lebanon and Madagascar.
It seems that some Vichy High Commisioners and Governors in the colonies wanted to put much harder fight than "honor" demanded, even when it was quite clear that they had no chance at all. In Syria-Lebanon campaign there were also French Foreign Legion units in both sides, although i'm not sure they were actively shooting each other.
@@mikavirtanen7029 it's tragically under studied. There was a mix of desertion and as you said much harder fighting than expected. Such a contrast is really interesting.
@Howie Hall 'take over' is a stretch - they wanted to use it as a submarine base for operating in the Indian Ocean, which would of course have posed a massive threat to Allied shipping. For Churchill it was also seen as an easy propaganda victory.
When I mention I grew up in Vichy, the first thing I hear is usually something about collaborators... I've literally had someone ask me if there were still some left. It's been 80 years, what do you think? I wish people could remember something else about the city, like how it was Napoleon III's regular vacation spot (which is why it became such a popular resort with a direct rail line to Paris).
@@ilikechestnuts9085 It's the fate of such cities. For instance, Nuremberg in Germany is mostly known internationally for the post-WW2 trials of war criminals, but would probably like it if people remembered it for having one of Europe's largest toy and game industry fairs.
What was said in the video is actually not entirely correct. Or rather it omitted many important facts. The french were given plenty of options to choose from when they recieved the british ultimatum, and they choose to do absolutely nothing (the worst option). The british government gave the French fleet the following options: "1. Sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans. 2. Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. If either of these courses is adopted by you we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation if they are damaged meanwhile. 3. Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans unless they break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies - Martinique for instance - where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated. If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships yourself within 6 hours. Finally, failing the above, I have the orders from His Majesty’s Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German hands.” Reminder, the US was still neutral at this time and it was unlikely that this would change anytime soon. The french were given 5 options to choose from, with the 6th being a british attack. They did absolutely nothing, thus invoking said attack. The worst part is that the French Admiral Gensoul refused to see the person sent by the british (a captain). He felt insulted that he would have to speak to a person of lower rank. The reason the british admiral Somerville sent a captain was that that captain spoke perfect french, so the risk of something being lost in translation was supposed to be low. But the french admiral sent a low ranking officer instead, which caused confusion and cost a lot of time, which was running dangerously low while the negotiations were still underway. But what is even worse is that the head of french naval operations, Admiral Darlan, had given specific orders that should such an ultimatum ever be sent, the commanding admirals should choose the option that would sent the fleet to a neutral nation, preferrably the US, if that was part of the Ulitmatum. What did the french admiral in charge of the fleet at Toulon, Admiral Gensoul, do? He radioed to the Vichy Government, and told them he was given only 2 options, namely handling the fleet over to the british or sink it. He did NOT mention the options to sail it to a french port and be disarmed, or sail it to a neutral nation like the US for the duration of the war. The Vichy Government, only kowing about those 2 options and fearing retaliation by the germans, gave the order that the fleet should NOT be handed over to the british and should NOT be scuttled; leaving a battle against the british fleet as the only option. This was one instance, the Battle of Mers El Kabir. In other ports, the negotiations went smoothly, with basically the complete rest of the french fleet being disarmed or handed over to the british. The person who bears the most responsability for this attack is the French Admiral Gensoul, who completely failed at every possible step.
@@xxnightdriverxx9576 No one has doubts on what you're saying however the video didn't go into that much depth on it simply because the video is not about it (And I think History Matters has actually done a video on it already)
@@xxnightdriverxx9576 "He felt insulted that he would have to speak to a person of lower rank." It's quite rightly so. British never miss any opportunity to insult their enemies.
@@jugoslavija5413 if he wasnt evil then he was at least naïve, senil, and megalomaniac. Also you can't just claim he didn't do anything wrong when he litterally either directly or indirectly killed many of his countrymen.
0:20 the story behind the Italian technicality of mountains being hard to cross is that some guarding posts were rehabilitated in Southeastern France near Menton and, when the war broke out, the Italian army wasn't aware of that these posts were guarded again (wtf are the Italian spies doing honestly ?), so a few Italian soldiers tried to cross one of the bridges guarded by 9 French soldiers in a tiny post, without success. One thing led to another and Mussolini, looking for Daddy H's approval, decided to send a 5k-men regiment to capture a basically 20m×5m bridge to siege the nearby city of Nice, without success again. Ultimately, the Italian army went around and conquered Nice regardless, but that battle became famous as the Pont Saint-Louis battle where 9 French soldiers held off 5000 Italian soldiers for basically 5 days, including 2 without any means of communication with the outside world, so they kept on fighting even when Francehad already surrendered. Mussolini made sure that this would never get in the news, but it was not accounting for the French being usually loud mouths that never miss a chance to piss of its neighbors (except Switzerland, because 🤑).
The Mussolini hanging around joke in the first newspaper is brilliant. I love how you put so much effort in ~10 frames of the video and that it seems, that over 50% of the viewers always stop there to read it, shows, that the effort pays off :)
Man this channel is so much more informative than my 5th grade teacher who basically said "Germany invaded France and then won, then France was split into two sides" and then moved on. I never knew that Italy and Germany invaded them later on.
I hope that it is since in school you simply dont have time to teach it any diferntly . I am a teacher myself and we must condense the information so much that it often hurts ...
@@Osterochse I get it, sometimes it's just a joke though. Another teacher summed up Italy in both World Wars as "In both wars, Italy was on the bad side, but then joined the good side halfway in" I had to learn about what really went on myself
@@mattc9598 did he really use the word "good" and "bad"? :) with regards to the first world war I think I think your teacher might update his views a bit.
@@Osterochse yeah, we weren't taught much about ww1 other than "the good side won" when i got to highschool, a much better teacher at least taught me about Franz Ferdinand
Remember that Operation Torch essentially brought France back into the war on the side of the Allies which is what prompted Germany to dissolve the Vichy State.
France's saving grace was that it had a huge empire fairly close to the conflict, which meant it had real territory and troops the Germans hadn't conquered. Both the Axis and Allies treated their "Puppet leaders" with kid gloves because of those resources, and the winning "puppet" eventually got his hands on nukes.
“I speak for all people, literally all people when I say France losing will never not be funny.” “We look forward to the formal incorporation of ‘Repressarabia into the USSR” Italy ‘just happy to be invited.’ Edit: And Mussolini wanting to ‘hang around’ Milan, lol. I love the news papers in these videos, hehe.
The attack on the French Fleet at Mers is such an avoidable tragedy. The British plan as understood was to give the French the opportunity to turn their ships over , sail them to the carribbean or scuttle them. But due to some petty squabbling bad communication and a dash of elitism none of those were ever realised and many were killed just for the ships to be scuttled later anyway
Brits always like to kill other people, as long as it's not their own. Case in point : - during the Napoleonic wars, there wasn't a single Austrian they weren't willing to sacrifice for the cause. - during WW2, there wasn't a single Frenchman they weren't willing to sacrifice for the cause. - during 2022 in Ukraine, there isn't a single Ukrainian they aren't willing to sacrifice for the cause. => See a pattern ?
It allowed for an axis zone to be able to trade openly specifically with neutral Spain. Vichy not being a combatant gave it a legal right to trade with neutral Spain. So basically gave Germany a way to trade with neutral Spain in a legal manner
1:03 "and so [the British] demanded custody of [the French fleet] for themselves" This is an oversimplification of things, the British offered the French fleet at Mers el Kabir multiple options, obviously they would have loved it if they could take the ships, but they were also offered to sail to a neutral port, ég the US, sail to a French colonial port in the Caribbean, or of course to join the Free French government in exile and continue fighting. Essentially, do anything but sit in Algeria and wait for the Nazis to requisition the ships. The French fleet admiral, however, refused to speak to the British envoy, a mere captain (the British Admiral did not speak French, and thus sent the most senior officer who did), and did a very poor job of communicating the available options back the Vichy.
0:25 “I speak for all people, and I mean literally all of them, when I say France loosing well never not be funny.” “The question now is whether Germany will mount an invasion of Britain or waste a year faffing around before invading the USSR.” “Italy ‘just happy to be invited.’” Once again, the little details in the newspapers are some of my favorite things about his videos!
"The technical military reason why this happened is mountains are hard to cross and much harder when they're littered with French bunkers filled with machine guns. As such, when you just blindly walk towards them it goes badly."
2:14 Technically Vichy France still nominally existed as a sovereign government after 1942, but it had no actual authority after that point. Also the Axis didn’t occupy Vichy France to stop it from picking a side. It was because Britain and America invaded French North Africa and the Vichy “Armistice Army” proved itself completely ineffectual.
Exactly. Regarding second point, it's easier than that. By 42 Allies where making progress in N-Africa. Germany needed to move troops closer to that area and maintaining the token free France took the backseat.
@@here_be_dragons9184 Yes, but the problem was the Axis had allowed Vichy France to hold on to the Third Republic’s colonies with the expectation that it would militarily defend them. In fact, part of the reason why the Axis let France remain independent was to keep its colonies out of Allied hands without a formal Axis occupation. Which also means the first week of the North African campaign was technically a war between the UK-US alliance and France. To be fair, General Eisenhower and the Anglo-American Combined Chiefs of Staff weren’t expecting the Armistice Army to put up any resistance at all, and instead they held out for eight weeks. But they were just too small to hold out against the invasion, and their loyalty to Vichy was never strong anyways. Eventually the Vichy commander Francois Darlan switched sides to the Allies (and became recognized as France’s legitimate head of state until his assassination) and most of the French colonial forces defected with him. The Armistice Army’s capitulation destroyed Hitler’s strategy for French independence because it showed its army could not defend the colonies, and showed that French civil servants and military commanders’ allegiance to Vichy regime was mostly weak.
Hi, you should do one video about the history of switzerland, how it came to be, the civil war and how it manage to survive despite alwais being between larger states. Love your videos😊
The reason it always survived between larger states is really simple The Cost / Reward simply didnt make sense. Cost is extremly high, Reward extremly minimal. Such no reason to invade.
@@roijoleil268 aye, Switzerland didn't have any notable resources and it's located in the mountain (in which easy to defend and hard to attack) so any nation that want Switzerland must pay a significant price for a meagre returns
While despising everything about, I must admit that I am rather fond of Vichy France's flag. The personal standard of Petain in the tricolour just looks cool.
@@sirarchi5510 I just listened to it, i have actually never heard it before. While the lyrics are - as to be expected - rather questionable, it does have a very nice, almost jovial melody. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
@@varana And that adds even more power to the scene in Casablanca where Victor Laszlo leads the crowd in singing "La Marseillaise" in protest to Gestapo presence.
@@varana I'm not terribly familiar with national anthems around the world, so I had to listen to both. Marseillaise is definitely better than the Viche anthem, not to mention moving when performed well... but wow what a terrible blood soaked song to form a modern nation around. Listening the the American battle hymn at hockey games is bad enough (also a fantastic song). I'm glad that there are no French teams in the NHL:P. Listening to "Frenchmen the world wants to come murder your children, so burn them all to death. show no mercy" (paraphrasing the ideas as best I can grasp with my basic command of French) wouldn't be pleasant. Yuck.
@Alan Pennie yes yes, I've seen the film. But that's what I'm saying. The Vichy regime is viewed as basically neutral to good: not necessarily how their viewed at face value today.
On the one hand, having an axe on your flag is undeniably cool. On the other, I feel it makes it harder to convince anyone that you're not the bad guys.
The thing is that this flag is basically a misconception of the modern era to represent Vichy France. The French State ("L'État Français") used the exact same flag as the french republic, a plain blue-white-red. People just added Pétain's insign on it after the war in order to ensure no one would associate "France" and "Vichy France". It was part of the successful media stunts of De Gaulle, who tried very hard to make everyone recognise that his government in exile in London was the legitimate one.
What was said in the video is actually not entirely correct. Or rather it omitted many important facts. The french were given plenty of options to choose from when they recieved the british ultimatum, and they choose to do absolutely nothing (the worst option). The british government gave the French fleet the following options: "1. Sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans. 2. Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. If either of these courses is adopted by you we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation if they are damaged meanwhile. 3. Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans unless they break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies - Martinique for instance - where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated. If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships yourself within 6 hours. Finally, failing the above, I have the orders from His Majesty’s Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German hands.” Reminder, the US was still neutral at this time and it was unlikely that this would change anytime soon. The french were given 5 options to choose from, with the 6th being a british attack. They did absolutely nothing, thus invoking said attack. The worst part is that the French Admiral Gensoul refused to see the person sent by the british (a captain). He felt insulted that he would have to speak to a person of lower rank. The reason the british admiral Somerville sent a captain was that that captain spoke perfect french, so the risk of something being lost in translation was supposed to be low. But the french admiral sent a low ranking officer instead, which caused confusion and cost a lot of time, which was running dangerously low while the negotiations were still underway. But what is even worse is that the head of french naval operations, Admiral Darlan, had given specific orders that should such an ultimatum ever be sent, the commanding admirals should choose the option that would sent the fleet to a neutral nation, preferrably the US, if that was part of the Ulitmatum. What did the french admiral in charge of the fleet at Toulon, Admiral Gensoul, do? He radioed to the Vichy Government, and told them he was given only 2 options, namely handling the fleet over to the british or sink it. He did NOT mention the options to sail it to a french port and be disarmed, or sail it to a neutral nation like the US for the duration of the war. The Vichy Government, only kowing about those 2 options and fearing retaliation by the germans, gave the order that the fleet should NOT be handed over to the british and should NOT be scuttled; leaving a battle against the british fleet as the only option. This was one instance, the Battle of Mers El Kabir. In other ports, the negotiations went smoothly, with basically the complete rest of the french fleet being disarmed or handed over to the british. The person who bears the most responsability for this attack is the French Admiral Gensoul, who completely failed at every possible step.
Oh how I wish World History was taught universally by this man... If you listen to the narrative, he is very concise and yet comprehensive. If you watch, he is very capable of holding your attention. If you pause at the sections with detail, he is captivating...
>When France fell to Germany (and Italy if you're feeling generous) >Italy 'just happy to be invited' >1:51 Italy getting jabbed when it's not even a focus in the video lmao
This is an interesting what if scenario. Let's say that Vichy France did join the Axis. Even if it wasn't a productive member of the alliance it could have, in theory, provided garrison troops along the coast of Normandy. Would an extra number of Axis troops (even subpar ones) been able to blunt the Allied landing?
No. In 1944 the Allies could bomb the $h!t out of anything German on the land. They would've just pulled some more bombers from bombing the German factories, prolonging the war for a while.
I had to pause to correct the gross oversimplification. Britain did not demand that France hand the fleet over for safe keeping. The British ultimatum included five separate options for keeping the French fleet out of German hands, options which included moving the fleet to French holdings in the Caribbean or South America where the Germans and Italians could not get to it. The French ships in the UK were seized, with several fatalities aboard Surcouf. The French fleet at Alexandria interred itself and sat out the war until 1943 when it joined the Free French and reactivated. Only at Mers-el-Kbir (and later Dakar) was the French fleet fired upon, and that primarily because Gensoul (in command) was insulted by having a "lowly" Captain to negotiate with and refused to send the entire ultimatum to Vichy or accept either of the British offers that his superior, Darlan, had already approved of.
FINALLY another person who mentions this, thank you I am not the only one. More context: What was said in the video is actually not entirely correct. Or rather it omitted many important facts. The french were given plenty of options to choose from when they recieved the british ultimatum, and they choose to do absolutely nothing (the worst option). The british government gave the French fleet the following options: "1. Sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans. 2. Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. If either of these courses is adopted by you we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation if they are damaged meanwhile. 3. Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans unless they break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies - Martinique for instance - where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated. If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships yourself within 6 hours. Finally, failing the above, I have the orders from His Majesty’s Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German hands.” Reminder, the US was still neutral at this time and it was unlikely that this would change anytime soon. The french were given 5 options to choose from, with the 6th being a british attack. They did absolutely nothing, thus invoking said attack. The worst part is that the French Admiral Gensoul refused to see the person sent by the british (a captain). He felt insulted that he would have to speak to a person of lower rank. The reason the british admiral Somerville sent a captain was that that captain spoke perfect french, so the risk of something being lost in translation was supposed to be low. But the french admiral sent a low ranking officer instead, which caused confusion and cost a lot of time, which was running dangerously low while the negotiations were still underway. But what is even worse is that the head of french naval operations, Admiral Darlan, had given specific orders that should such an ultimatum ever be sent, the commanding admirals should choose the option that would sent the fleet to a neutral nation, preferrably the US, if that was part of the Ulitmatum. What did the french admiral in charge of the fleet at Toulon, Admiral Gensoul, do? He radioed to the Vichy Government, and told them he was given only 2 options, namely handling the fleet over to the british or sink it. He did NOT mention the options to sail it to a french port and be disarmed, or sail it to a neutral nation like the US for the duration of the war. The Vichy Government, only kowing about those 2 options and fearing retaliation by the germans, gave the order that the fleet should NOT be handed over to the british and should NOT be scuttled; leaving a battle against the british fleet as the only option. This was one instance, the Battle of Mers El Kabir. In other ports, the negotiations went smoothly, with basically the complete rest of the french fleet being disarmed or handed over to the british. The person who bears the most responsability for this attack is the French Admiral Gensoul, who completely failed at every possible step.
You mean let's ignore tgat the entire debacle was a case of malicious discommunication because the French fleet CO Gensoul deliberately withheld vital information from Vichy that they have a third choice (go to a neutral port and stay there) and made Vichy chose to refuse thr offer leading to the debacle... all because Gensoul can't accept the idea he talked with a naval Captain rather than an admiral despite the fact he's the only British officer on board who can speak fluent French?
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 just imagine that : a country which is still officially your ally send a fleet, which you were sailing whith a few days prior, to your ports and blew your navy up because they were afraid of a thing that was never going to happened and didn't even happened two years later. Blaming all the fault on the French is a bit too much...
@@leosimon241 "never going to happen" Yeah, as if they could guarantee that. The massive downside was in the small chance the Nazis could seize the fleet, the British and their empire would be defeated, even more Jews eradicated, France permanently under Vichy control, Britain under-- at best-- a peace agreement with harsh terms imposed upon them or effectively devastated, and the US less likely to join the war.
From a purely military sense, the Vichy regime doesn't initially appear too controversal: they were a rump state who didn't do anything (again, military-wise) but get kicked around by the Germans, Japanese, British, and even the Free French in Syria (they did fight Thailand relatively successfully though). In fact, they even kept their word regarding the French fleet: they promised the British in 1940 that it would never fall into German hands and indeed in 1942 they scuttled nearly all of it (77 modern ships). Where I think the true and inexcusable shame that the Vichy regime brought onto France was her domestic policies: willingly taking part in the Holocaust will forever deny the regime any place in a conversation about it doing "right" during its existance.
They were quite effective at oppressing colonial subjects in Africa and defending their holdings against the Allies. Where many expected them to defect, they instead killed many Allies and were able to hold out long enough to allow for stronger reinforcements from Italy, significantly hindering the Allied advance from Africa towards Europe. Very effective fighting by the Vichy there. French point of honour
the vichy regime was a complete disgrace for France, a bunch of antisemitic assholes who willingly went out of their way to take part in the holocaust and help nazy germany.
Yes, technically, it is true. France signed an armistice with Germany, meaning a suspension of hostilities. Opposite to what most people believe, France never signed a peace treaty with Hitler.
france was still technically at war with germany a true peace was supposed to be negotiated after the brits threw in the towel which they never did(thankfully)
technically France remained at war with Germany thoughout as a final peace treaty was never negoiated..everyone thought the British would come to terms in 1940 it looked like it at the time
It was so that the allies wouldn't invade South France while they completed their industrial focuses until Germany did the annex decision later when they needed more mils and civs.
0:25 ... that newspaper deserves an award for actually having fully-written out jokes in the articles rather than just Lorem Ipsum even though it was on screen for literally an second
0:25 - the newspaper front page incorrectly states here that after France's defeat UK had no allies. That is not true. At that point UK's only ally was Poland. Polish government existed (although in exile, as the Polish soil was occupied at the time by Soviets and Germans) and later even Polish army was formed to help the Brits fight the Germans.
"Mussolini celebrated by visiting Milan where he stated how much he liked the Piazzale Loreto and how he hoped to hang around there one day." Yeah, he sure got his wish to "hang around" there, along with his mistress. They can thank the Italian Resistance for that.
About the North/South partake of France, a few month ago an historian discovers the original audio of the Armistice negotiation. The German wasn't supposed to take the southwest Atlantic seashore, telling they will add an article to the Armistice, to clearly stated that Bordeaux and the south of Bordeaux will remains in Unoccupied France (Bordeaux was supposed to be the new French capital city) So, this probably plays a huge role in the relation between Vichy and the Germany after, as the German clearly shown they can't be trust.
Fun fact, Vichy isn't only famous for that, at least in France. Here, we know it as a spa town and for candies called "pastilles de Vichy" (aka Vichy pastille/lozenges/cough drops).
"The Germans didn't feel that France would fare too well in an all-out war" That's total BS though. German high command including Hitler himself always held the French soldiers in high regard and the French army was the most powerful on the planet before the 1940 campaign. There's no way the Germans wouldn't have wanted the French on their side against bolchevism, and wouldn't have preferred them over Italy.
@@d.k8257 If you decide to have a military alliance with France (Vichy France was France), you let them rebuild their army. Think about it. Such an army would have been far greater than anything any Axis nation besides Germany could offer. You think the Germans wouldn't have wanted two million Frenchmen on their side? They'd have won the war.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
"The British calmly dropped the subject ... and some bombs ... on the French fleet"
Brilliant
The most British thing ever
History Matters has absolutely mastered the art of deadpan humor.
That would have been a great time for a “Fun fact: No!”
What was said in the video is actually not entirely correct. Or rather it omitted many important facts. The french were given plenty of options to choose from when they recieved the british ultimatum, and they choose to do absolutely nothing (the worst option).
The british government gave the French fleet the following 5 options:
"1. Sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans.
2. Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port.
If either of these courses is adopted by you we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation if they are damaged meanwhile.
3. Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans unless they break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies - Martinique for instance - where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated.
If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships yourself within 6 hours. Finally, failing the above, I have the orders from His Majesty’s Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German hands.”
Reminder, the US was still neutral at this time and it was unlikely that this would change anytime soon.
The french were given 5 options to choose from, with the 6th being a british attack. They did absolutely nothing, thus invoking said attack.
The worst part is that the French Admiral Gensoul refused to see the person sent by the british (a captain). He felt insulted that he would have to speak to a person of lower rank. The reason the british admiral Somerville sent a captain was that that captain spoke perfect french, so the risk of something being lost in translation was supposed to be low.
But the french admiral sent a low ranking officer instead, which caused confusion and cost a lot of time, which was running dangerously low while the negotiations were still underway.
But what is even worse is that the head of french naval operations, Admiral Darlan, had given specific orders that should such an ultimatum ever be sent, the commanding admirals should choose the option that would sent the fleet to a neutral nation, preferrably the US, if that was part of the Ulitmatum.
What did the french admiral in charge of the fleet at Toulon, Admiral Gensoul, do? He radioed to the Vichy Government, and told them he was given only 2 options, namely handling the fleet over to the british or sink it. He did NOT mention the options to sail it to a french port and be disarmed, or sail it to a neutral nation like the US for the duration of the war. The Vichy Government, only kowing about those 2 options and fearing retaliation by the germans, gave the order that the fleet should NOT be handed over to the british and should NOT be scuttled; leaving a battle against the british fleet as the only option.
This was one instance, the Battle of Mers El Kabir. In other ports, the negotiations went smoothly, with basically the complete rest of the french fleet being disarmed or handed over to the british. The person who bears the most responsability for this attack is the French Admiral Gensoul, who completely failed at every possible step.
@@xxnightdriverxx9576 true, but it is still funny
Also one of the reason why Pétain choose Vichy over other more develop city was because it was the only French city that was big enough to host the entire governement , politicaly stable (unlike other city like Lyon who had an important communist presence) and close to Paris to make it look like Pétain was almost the boss of France (he was not).
Also it has nice hot springs for poor poor Pétain's joints
Did Petain do anything wrong actually or was he just playing the best hand he could with what he had? Seems almost like a lose-lose situation for him where pissing off the Germans or the Allies are an equally bad move for what was (at the time) what remained of France.
@@SilverFang2789 Petain was trying to make the best of a disaster situation for France,in our timeline he was arrested, had axis wont he would technically rule a independent but member of the axis France.
@@SilverFang2789 A difficult answer with a hard answer.
On one hand Pétain had to deal with a destroy country in a Europe that looked like it will be under nazi control for the next century. So he couldnt openly oppose Berlin.
On the other hand he was extremly zealous in his collaboration and hd did went farther that what the Germans asked of him on many occasion such as offering French troop to fight Stalin
@@SilverFang2789 Petain is... controversial, the intent in itself sure looks Noble, make sure France survives a conflict it lost after many germans were humiliated by Versailles 1919, thats well decent, from a patriotic point of wiew wishing for your country to survive to see the new Europe no matter who won, at that time likely Germany, yea sall good.
Thing is he didnt just want France to see the next day, he also wanted a place of choice in said new Europe, which is why his governement started preparing jews to be rallied and all for possible deportation purposes before Hitler even asked for them, and he was a collaborator to the core in more than one aspect, which is terrible too.
He did alot of things wrong, the only thing we can give too him is that he managed in extremis to pull a Talleyrand and keep the majority of France together while joining the victors of their war, which means in case of actual German victory (impossible challenge ik) France would suffer alot less afterward compared to the other defeated great powers
I love how hating the French prevented Vichy France from joining any side
Hated by both sides
@@Ajxle And hating both sides in the same manner. A true european relashionship in the past, lol
I would rather have a German division front of me than a french one behind me . General patton .
@@Snp2024 Patton never said that, Patton was a francophile who spoke french and was friend with french general Leclerc, he held France in high regard, this "quote" was made up by the republican and former Secretary of Defense James R. Schlesinger on fox news, he said that after France refusal to go in Iraq, unfortunately with newspapers and the internet, people wrongly attribute this quote to Patton.
No allies?
Vichy France did not cease to exist in 1942. The Germans invaded, yes, but it maintained similar limited control over all of France as it did before only in the German occupied zone. Its institutions remained largely intact, just embodied by a new man, named Laval. It only really came out of existance in 1944. I made this mistake in a presentation at university once to think that it lasted until 1942. The professor made sure, I'd never forget :)
I mean Laval had already been head of government in 1940 but had been dismissed. The Germans wanted him back because he was an ardent advocate for collaboration and they felt he served their interests best, so he was reinstated in the summer of 1942, before the invasion.
This is literally an educational channel, gtfo with your "🤓"
That last sentence sounds so ominous lol. What did he do?
@@LegiyonEhellout “assume the position”
@@LegiyonEhellout It was in France, a class about French history and the professor was a well established French historian, doing research and what not. It was an Elite university ("grande école") and he had corresponding expectations, saying all the time, you study here, so you need to be UHMAZING. He is from the kind of generation that does not care about privacy or social structures at all, so he would just evaluate my presentation in front of the entire class in a 15 min monologue. Fist positive things and then something like, "there is just one problem about your presentation: that is WRONG" and then go on to explain why it sucked. He did not even give me a grade, he said he could not evaluate it like that BUT then gave me a second chance, because I am not from France, so he assumed I couldnt have known better (as if my non French origin would have been excuse for the bad research lol). So I needed to give the presentation again xD I will never forget it because I spent 15 min sitting in class while the professor roasted me with his conservative french ruthlessness....
I cannot get over how you manage to slip in such tiny details of accuracy.
You always get the rifles right for the time of conflict, but at 1:28 showed the Canadian flag with green leaves, not the later red ones. (It was changed in 1958 to "The Red Ensign" and in 1963 to "The Maple Leaf".)
Whoever does your research is to be commended.
1965 for the modern flag.
At 1:50 it has a country class destroyer which was commissioned in the early 1960s
The communist liberals stole the real Canadian flag in 1965, not 1963.
The colonial map was not quite perfect, as it left out Syria and Lebanon where the British and Australians fought a bloody campaign against the Vichy French.
YAWN. Get your details right, Nazi boi.
The spinning newspaper stories are always gold. I had a spit-take of soda on my screen reading how Mussolini really hoped to hang around Milan.
I'm so happy that he was able to -live- accomplish his dreams.
That was great
Thank you. For some reason I’ve never thought to stop to read the details.
@@catw4729 In early videos, they were often just graphics, but now they're worth reading for the extra nuggets of dry humor.
And Lord Beaverbrook's line about "France losing will never not be funny" 😆
0:25 “He hoped to hung around it one day” ABSOLUTELY. GENIUS.
Had me cracking
How do you mess the quote up when you literally just read it? HANG
@@pyropulseIXXI oh one of *those* people
@@pyropulseIXXI in 1945 he WAS hunging out there
As you mentioned, the Vichy regime, officially called the French State, had nominal control of the “zone occupee” in the north despite being powerless puppets of the Germans, while only exercising real power in the “zone libre”.
However to add to this point, once Germany and Italy garrisoned the rest of France the Vichy Petain regime did not dissolve but instead continued, now as a powerless puppet of the Germans in both the north and south zones (as opposed to being unoccupied in the south and a puppet in the north as before).
Yeah, and from what Ive heard and seen from people Ive talked to Petain is not well liked compared to de Gaulle. Which to me as an American is rather strange considering both men had very questionable sides to them. It jsut so happened Petain was stuck as the blame goat being the Axis puppet.
@@chazbrown1139 A lot of Americans like Thomas Jefferson, but deeply hate Jefferson davis, despite both leaders being slaveowners. A lot of People would forgive the heinous crimes if you had contributed something great to the nation/people.
@@chazbrown1139 Well, as a French, Petain is disliked for its collaboration with Nazi Germany and its role in the antisemitic laws, the deportation of foreign and French Jews and political opponents to extermination camps, as well as the infamous STO (mandatory work service) which forced young French people to go work in German factories, with a terribly bad deals since multiple workers were required for one POW to be released from POW camps. De Gaulle never had such bad sides, and is pretty much the one who fought for French sovereignty when some of the Allies (looking at you Roosevelt) wanted France treated as a defeated Axis power.
The two are just not comparable. Petain was a great hero of WWI but committed high treason by his actions during WWII (even though he probably thought at the time he was doing the right thing). De Gaulle on the other side is a great hero of WWII and continued by redressing the country both from 1944 to 1946 and from 1958 to 1969, keeping a democratic France even though he was appointed as a reaction to an attempted coup by part of the army in Algeria in 1958.
@@othian2567 Alors selon le roman national tout ce que tu dis est exact, mais officieusement l'histoire est un peu plus complexe que ça et pas aussi manichéenne concernant ces deux hommes.
Il est compliqué de juger une époque que l'on a pas vécu, surtout par des choses subjectives racontées par d'autres personnes.
@@Quent5000 Oui c’est sûr, il y a des parts d’ombre pour chaque personne ayant compté dans l’histoire. D’ailleurs De Gaulle n’en voulait pas tant que ça à Pétain, il lui trouvait facilement des excuses, et il a bien sûr beaucoup participé à « dissimuler » une bonne partie des collaborateurs pour maintenir l’image d’une France résistante et favoriser la réconciliation nationale. Je résumais rapidement pour un étranger la différence de vision entre les deux hommes, particulièrement parce que beaucoup de gens meme en France ont en tête le roman national 👍
Et il est effectivement compliqué de juger une époque, particulièrement lorsqu’on connaît nous l’issue et qu’on est pas dans l’incertitude de savoir dans quelle direction l’histoire va évoluer. Les hommes qui ont vécu cette période n’avaient pas le luxe en 1940-43 de savoir comment la guerre allait se finir, ni pour certains ce qu’il se passait dans l’Allemagne nazie.
They didn't join because world tension is not high enough
Cosmic
HOI4 master
hoi4 players rise up
Bro wasn't fascist enough to join axis ☹️
@@frozenturbo8623 you need to be more than 100% fascist (or be Japan)
I love the little bit with MacKenzie King holding up a "Bite me" sign. Bravo.
I'd like to see a video on how Korea had managed to stay independent until 1910 despite being sandwiched between two larger and more powerful empires. I know Japan spent a lot of it's history with internal Clan feuds and it's first attempt to conquer the peninsula was forced back by Joseon and Ming forces during the Imjin War at the end of the 16th century, but given that China went through expansionist phases as well and it's Emperors saw themselves destined to be mankind's universal rulers, why didn't they take over their smaller neighbour?
Korea was technically a vassal of the Chinese Emperors.
They were independent but still tributary/protectorate changing hands between Ming/Qing/Russia/Japan
At the time of the formal annexation in 1910, Korea was already a puppet state of Japan since the end of the 19th century
You simply can't take over Korea.
Unless you are the Mongols.
They did several times but Korea managed to break free (kind of)
I think it is because *technically* Korea was a Kingdom subject to China, so it didn't make sense for them to attack it.
*History Matters:* "Vichy, literally only famous for what's going on here right now."
*Millions of bottles of Vichy mineral water:* cry in silence
"Vichy France has joined the Axis."
- Hearts of Iron IV, since 2016.
Only in hoi4 where they make aussa to be a country that's meant to be taken by Italy and has a focus tree while not being on the list
@@frozenturbo8623 it deserves a drink.
actually not anymore, since a few updates it doesnt do that anymore. But yeah for most of the games existence they did exactly that
@@xxnightdriverxx9576 I'm pretty sure they still do. Unless they don't do it in the La Resistance DLC (which I don't have)
Usually the Allies declare war on Vichy France but instead of doing Operation Torch it just stays in the Axis and thus it never gets annexed
Love Canada's "Bite me."
Also, it is longstanding British naval policy to not allow a powerful neutral country's fleet to be used against them when that country is invaded or being threatened by a hostile mainland European power. This is why the British bombarded Copenhagen during the Napoleonic Wars and seized the neutral Danish fleet to prevent Napoleon from replacing his own losses after Trafalgar, after it appeared Denmark was either going to be invaded by France or join their side.
What was said in the video is actually not entirely correct. Or rather it omitted many important facts. The french were given plenty of options to choose from when they recieved the british ultimatum, and they choose to do absolutely nothing (the worst option).
The british government gave the French fleet the following options:
"1. Sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans.
2. Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port.
If either of these courses is adopted by you we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation if they are damaged meanwhile.
3. Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans unless they break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies - Martinique for instance - where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated.
If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships yourself within 6 hours. Finally, failing the above, I have the orders from His Majesty’s Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German hands.”
Reminder, the US was still neutral at this time and it was unlikely that this would change anytime soon.
The french were given 5 options to choose from, with the 6th being a british attack. They did absolutely nothing, thus invoking said attack.
The worst part is that the French Admiral Gensoul refused to see the person sent by the british (a captain). He felt insulted that he would have to speak to a person of lower rank. The reason the british admiral Somerville sent a captain was that that captain spoke perfect french, so the risk of something being lost in translation was supposed to be low.
But the french admiral sent a low ranking officer instead, which caused confusion and cost a lot of time, which was running dangerously low while the negotiations were still underway.
But what is even worse is that the head of french naval operations, Admiral Darlan, had given specific orders that should such an ultimatum ever be sent, the commanding admirals should choose the option that would sent the fleet to a neutral nation, preferrably the US, if that was part of the Ulitmatum.
What did the french admiral in charge of the fleet at Toulon, Admiral Gensoul, do? He radioed to the Vichy Government, and told them he was given only 2 options, namely handling the fleet over to the british or sink it. He did NOT mention the options to sail it to a french port and be disarmed, or sail it to a neutral nation like the US for the duration of the war. The Vichy Government, only kowing about those 2 options and fearing retaliation by the germans, gave the order that the fleet should NOT be handed over to the british and should NOT be scuttled; leaving a battle against the british fleet as the only option.
This was one instance, the Battle of Mers El Kabir. In other ports, the negotiations went smoothly, with basically the complete rest of the french fleet being disarmed or handed over to the british. The person who bears the most responsability for this attack is the French Admiral Gensoul, who completely failed at every possible step.
Even more amazing they actually did it twice, attacking Copenhagen in 1801 and 1807, really didn't want Napoleon having the Danish fleet
@@xxnightdriverxx9576 You list three options, all of which are variations of "Give us the ships"
@@xxnightdriverxx9576 That just answered my question of why the French didn't inter their fleet with the US or sail to another Free French port. Thanks!
@@xxnightdriverxx9576 Well, the British government told the naval people to give the options, but they left out the "hide out in France for the rest of the war" bit because l'anglais
Visited Vichy 15 years ago out of curiosity. It's a town that pretends it was never the capital of a vassal state - no plaques or mentions of 1940-44 anywhere, & the tourist information centre had zero suggestions as to which buildings had been used during that period.
And my car got drenched in a tsunami of bird poo, but that was probably just coincidence 😖
I've been to the Italian equivalent, Salò on Lake Garda, de facto capital of the puppet Italian Social Republic between 1943 and 1945. There at least they do point out the various buildings used as ministries, and the villa where Mussolini lived.
Your story’s ending is a load of crap 💩
They were following you
👀
Imagine being a city that's existed for hundreds of years and being associated as the capital of the collaborators.
The french do not have the balls to be honest about their own history
Hooray for Canada holding up the "Bite Me!" sign during the international recognition segment. This channel is so hilarious at times.
@@davidcook8065 I went to school with my friend David Koch. That would have been my exact name too if my grandfather had not gotten tired of American mispronunciations offending his ears.
@@davidcook8065 Yes, I get "Is that with an 'e' ?" The asking depends a lot on the ratio of German respelled Kochs to English Cookes ancestry in the area. Most Brits and people in Tidewater Maryland and Virginia will tack the 'e' on without even asking me. The highly German areas of Minnesota even go so far as to ask me if it is Koch or Cook.
“When France fell to Germany (And Italy If you’re feeling generous)” I don’t think I do
Eternal Anglo
@@azlanadil3646 it’s in the description
@@bobhuman8343 not something you see everyday
The short-lived invasion of France by Italy was quite comical
@@bobhuman8343 even rarer based frenchman take 🇫🇷🤝🇬🇧
I'm French and hearing "Philip Patung" just makes me laugh everytime
Francais ou russe
@@BaguetteGamingOfficial Il y a des français qui sont pour la victoire de la Russie hélas.
@@Fierce0Deity0Link *tant mieux
@@surprise_ mdrr alors ça c cringe
@@BaguetteGamingOfficial C'est surtout l'utilisation du mot « cringe », qui est cringe.
Quant à se prononcer en faveur de la victoire de la Russie, ou de celle des États-Unis... pourquoi faire ? Se mettre du côté de ceux qui attaque un pays limitrophe de l'UE ? Ou du côte de ceux qui détruisent notre industrie ? Nous n'avons d'amis ni à l'Ouest, ni à l'Est.
I can also imagine that arming a whole lot of your former enemies went down like a cup of cold sick with the Wehrmacht. I mean, how many of those weapons would end up "lost" and being used against the occupiers.
Absolutly. For Hitler, France was the archenemy. Have a look at what he secretly wrote to his high banking staff after the Battle of Bir Hakeim...
The flag of Vichy France looks so good
Forgot to mention that Vichy France was occupied by the Axis after the Allies invaded Neutral French North Africa, in response to which the Germans attempted to seize the French fleet. Petain, despite having been invaded by the Allies, refused to allow the fleet to fall into German hands and ordered it to be scuttled, which probably did more to win WW2 for the allies than anything the previous French government had done
I mean the French fleet wasn't anything special even if the Germans had taken it, Britain and The US would have had no problem destroying it.
@@ChrisCrossClash I would think doubling the size of your surface fleet navy would be tremendous.
“I mean, the Czech industry and equipment wasn’t anything special. The British and French would have no problem destroying it.”
@@ChrisCrossClash The French fleet had more battleships than the Italians, numerous heavy cruisers and state of the art light cruisers, its destroyers were among the most versatile and dangerous of all belligerent.
The French navy of 1940 was truly a sight to behold, but sadly it did not have the destiny it was cut out for and ended on the bottom of the sea by the hands of its own sailors without fighting.
@@zacharytracy3797 Except that the Axis had not enough fuel stock to use it. Already half of the italian fleet remained on deck.
@@zacharytracy3797 The US by that point had tripled its pre-war navy size. The Germans, 'doubling' theirs, is less ships than the US had alone pre-war. Never mind the US and UK had technological superiority in virtually every area, where they didn't was wherever the Germans were hoping to generate a wunderwaffe that would win the war for them, focusing all their effort on that one thing while slowly being overwhelmed elsewhere.
Thanks!
0:25 Newspaper: "France Surrenders! - 'No one in the future will bring this up' - Albert Lebrun"
oh boi.
they had bigger issues like German tanks in the streets and being bombed.....im sure memes were probably not on there mind
"They had to relocate to Vichy because it had the best postal and telephone links outside Paris." Not to mention the best water.
Because as a spa resort it had plenty of hotels were to locate the government offices.
0:24 Can we just appreciate the fact that he actually did the newspaper instead of just filler text?
0:26 "Mussolini celebrated by visiting Milan where he stated how much he liked the Piazzale Loreto and how he hoped to hang around there one day." 😄😆😂🤣
Bit of an oversight not to mention that the cause of Italo-German occupation in Nov 1942 (Case Anton) was the invasion of Vichy-controlled North Africa in Operation Torch. Landings which were, at least in part, opposed, though I suppose the political situation there is a bit too nuanced to cover satisfactorily in a 3 min video. Vichy also actively fought campaigns against the Allies in Syria-Lebanon and Madagascar.
It seems that some Vichy High Commisioners and Governors in the colonies wanted to put much harder fight than "honor" demanded, even when it was quite clear that they had no chance at all. In Syria-Lebanon campaign there were also French Foreign Legion units in both sides, although i'm not sure they were actively shooting each other.
@@mikavirtanen7029 it's tragically under studied. There was a mix of desertion and as you said much harder fighting than expected. Such a contrast is really interesting.
@Howie Hall 'take over' is a stretch - they wanted to use it as a submarine base for operating in the Indian Ocean, which would of course have posed a massive threat to Allied shipping. For Churchill it was also seen as an easy propaganda victory.
Please keep the content coming! Absolutely in love with this channel.
A deal with the Axis was almost reached, but James Bisonette intervened
0:25 The "Mussolini wanting to hang around in Milan" line made me laugh out loud, absolutely love your newspapers!
Vichy “Literally only famous for what’s going on here right now” France
Abroad maybe. In France not. Was famous as a spa resort. And still today for its menthol pills.
When I mention I grew up in Vichy, the first thing I hear is usually something about collaborators... I've literally had someone ask me if there were still some left. It's been 80 years, what do you think?
I wish people could remember something else about the city, like how it was Napoleon III's regular vacation spot (which is why it became such a popular resort with a direct rail line to Paris).
@@ilikechestnuts9085 It's the fate of such cities. For instance, Nuremberg in Germany is mostly known internationally for the post-WW2 trials of war criminals, but would probably like it if people remembered it for having one of Europe's largest toy and game industry fairs.
'Britain dropped the subject. And some bombs on the French fleet'
Hilarious. I love this channel's humor.
What was said in the video is actually not entirely correct. Or rather it omitted many important facts. The french were given plenty of options to choose from when they recieved the british ultimatum, and they choose to do absolutely nothing (the worst option).
The british government gave the French fleet the following options:
"1. Sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans.
2. Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port.
If either of these courses is adopted by you we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation if they are damaged meanwhile.
3. Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans unless they break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies - Martinique for instance - where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated.
If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships yourself within 6 hours. Finally, failing the above, I have the orders from His Majesty’s Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German hands.”
Reminder, the US was still neutral at this time and it was unlikely that this would change anytime soon.
The french were given 5 options to choose from, with the 6th being a british attack. They did absolutely nothing, thus invoking said attack.
The worst part is that the French Admiral Gensoul refused to see the person sent by the british (a captain). He felt insulted that he would have to speak to a person of lower rank. The reason the british admiral Somerville sent a captain was that that captain spoke perfect french, so the risk of something being lost in translation was supposed to be low.
But the french admiral sent a low ranking officer instead, which caused confusion and cost a lot of time, which was running dangerously low while the negotiations were still underway.
But what is even worse is that the head of french naval operations, Admiral Darlan, had given specific orders that should such an ultimatum ever be sent, the commanding admirals should choose the option that would sent the fleet to a neutral nation, preferrably the US, if that was part of the Ulitmatum.
What did the french admiral in charge of the fleet at Toulon, Admiral Gensoul, do? He radioed to the Vichy Government, and told them he was given only 2 options, namely handling the fleet over to the british or sink it. He did NOT mention the options to sail it to a french port and be disarmed, or sail it to a neutral nation like the US for the duration of the war. The Vichy Government, only kowing about those 2 options and fearing retaliation by the germans, gave the order that the fleet should NOT be handed over to the british and should NOT be scuttled; leaving a battle against the british fleet as the only option.
This was one instance, the Battle of Mers El Kabir. In other ports, the negotiations went smoothly, with basically the complete rest of the french fleet being disarmed or handed over to the british. The person who bears the most responsability for this attack is the French Admiral Gensoul, who completely failed at every possible step.
@@xxnightdriverxx9576 No one has doubts on what you're saying however the video didn't go into that much depth on it simply because the video is not about it (And I think History Matters has actually done a video on it already)
@@xxnightdriverxx9576 "He felt insulted that he would have to speak to a person of lower rank." It's quite rightly so. British never miss any opportunity to insult their enemies.
Petain is the embodiment of “You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.”
he wasnt the villian he didnt do anything wrong and tried his best to save the French people .
@@jugoslavija5413 this is sarcasm right ?
Petain was just a fascist who seized the opportunity to apply what he deeply thought. This hand shake at Montoire I do believe will still pay.
@@jugoslavija5413 if he wasnt evil then he was at least naïve, senil, and megalomaniac.
Also you can't just claim he didn't do anything wrong when he litterally either directly or indirectly killed many of his countrymen.
@@jugoslavija5413
He send jews to german concentration camps, knowingly and purposely
Do one on Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar, El Cid from medival Spain please :)
0:20 the story behind the Italian technicality of mountains being hard to cross is that some guarding posts were rehabilitated in Southeastern France near Menton and, when the war broke out, the Italian army wasn't aware of that these posts were guarded again (wtf are the Italian spies doing honestly ?), so a few Italian soldiers tried to cross one of the bridges guarded by 9 French soldiers in a tiny post, without success.
One thing led to another and Mussolini, looking for Daddy H's approval, decided to send a 5k-men regiment to capture a basically 20m×5m bridge to siege the nearby city of Nice, without success again. Ultimately, the Italian army went around and conquered Nice regardless, but that battle became famous as the Pont Saint-Louis battle where 9 French soldiers held off 5000 Italian soldiers for basically 5 days, including 2 without any means of communication with the outside world, so they kept on fighting even when Francehad already surrendered. Mussolini made sure that this would never get in the news, but it was not accounting for the French being usually loud mouths that never miss a chance to piss of its neighbors (except Switzerland, because 🤑).
The Mussolini hanging around joke in the first newspaper is brilliant.
I love how you put so much effort in ~10 frames of the video and that it seems, that over 50% of the viewers always stop there to read it, shows, that the effort pays off :)
The last time I was this early, France was still a Monarchy 🤴🏻🇫🇷💯
Heads will roll if anyone is late...
0:46 omg two phones!? :O
Man this channel is so much more informative than my 5th grade teacher who basically said "Germany invaded France and then won, then France was split into two sides" and then moved on. I never knew that Italy and Germany invaded them later on.
I hope that it is since in school you simply dont have time to teach it any diferntly . I am a teacher myself and we must condense the information so much that it often hurts ...
@@Osterochse I get it, sometimes it's just a joke though.
Another teacher summed up Italy in both World Wars as "In both wars, Italy was on the bad side, but then joined the good side halfway in"
I had to learn about what really went on myself
@@mattc9598 did he really use the word "good" and "bad"? :) with regards to the first world war I think I think your teacher might update his views a bit.
@@Osterochse yeah, we weren't taught much about ww1 other than "the good side won"
when i got to highschool, a much better teacher at least taught me about Franz Ferdinand
Remember that Operation Torch essentially brought France back into the war on the side of the Allies which is what prompted Germany to dissolve the Vichy State.
Yep.
After that France was pretty much back in the Allied Camp.
France's saving grace was that it had a huge empire fairly close to the conflict, which meant it had real territory and troops the Germans hadn't conquered. Both the Axis and Allies treated their "Puppet leaders" with kid gloves because of those resources, and the winning "puppet" eventually got his hands on nukes.
“I speak for all people, literally all people when I say France losing will never not be funny.”
“We look forward to the formal incorporation of ‘Repressarabia into the USSR”
Italy ‘just happy to be invited.’
Edit: And Mussolini wanting to ‘hang around’ Milan, lol.
I love the news papers in these videos, hehe.
0:31 I certainly didn't expect that
The attack on the French Fleet at Mers is such an avoidable tragedy. The British plan as understood was to give the French the opportunity to turn their ships over , sail them to the carribbean or scuttle them. But due to some petty squabbling bad communication and a dash of elitism none of those were ever realised and many were killed just for the ships to be scuttled later anyway
Very well said!
Brits always like to kill other people, as long as it's not their own. Case in point :
- during the Napoleonic wars, there wasn't a single Austrian they weren't willing to sacrifice for the cause.
- during WW2, there wasn't a single Frenchman they weren't willing to sacrifice for the cause.
- during 2022 in Ukraine, there isn't a single Ukrainian they aren't willing to sacrifice for the cause. => See a pattern ?
According to the newspaper, Mussolini hope to hang around in Milan one day. That's humorously dark
It allowed for an axis zone to be able to trade openly specifically with neutral Spain. Vichy not being a combatant gave it a legal right to trade with neutral Spain. So basically gave Germany a way to trade with neutral Spain in a legal manner
Did the Germans care about a legal manner?
@Stephen Williams yes, to keep the US out of the war
0:24 - Love the joke in the newspaper article about Mussolini visiting Milan and saying he'd like to hang around here someday.
1:03 "and so [the British] demanded custody of [the French fleet] for themselves"
This is an oversimplification of things, the British offered the French fleet at Mers el Kabir multiple options, obviously they would have loved it if they could take the ships, but they were also offered to sail to a neutral port, ég the US, sail to a French colonial port in the Caribbean, or of course to join the Free French government in exile and continue fighting. Essentially, do anything but sit in Algeria and wait for the Nazis to requisition the ships.
The French fleet admiral, however, refused to speak to the British envoy, a mere captain (the British Admiral did not speak French, and thus sent the most senior officer who did), and did a very poor job of communicating the available options back the Vichy.
History Matters out here answering questions I never knew I desperately needed answers to
0:25 “I speak for all people, and I mean literally all of them, when I say France loosing well never not be funny.” “The question now is whether Germany will mount an invasion of Britain or waste a year faffing around before invading the USSR.”
“Italy ‘just happy to be invited.’”
Once again, the little details in the newspapers are some of my favorite things about his videos!
"The technical military reason why this happened is mountains are hard to cross and much harder when they're littered with French bunkers filled with machine guns. As such, when you just blindly walk towards them it goes badly."
You forgot Mussolini saying he hoped to hang around Piazzale Loreto someday. That's where they hung him btw.
“No one in the future will ever bring this up” -Albert Lebrun
@@akend4426 he had much bigger things to worry about then surrender memes
"He hoped to hang around there one day" -- I laughed harder at that than I should have!
2:14 Technically Vichy France still nominally existed as a sovereign government after 1942, but it had no actual authority after that point.
Also the Axis didn’t occupy Vichy France to stop it from picking a side. It was because Britain and America invaded French North Africa and the Vichy “Armistice Army” proved itself completely ineffectual.
Exactly.
Regarding second point, it's easier than that. By 42 Allies where making progress in N-Africa. Germany needed to move troops closer to that area and maintaining the token free France took the backseat.
@@here_be_dragons9184 Yes, but the problem was the Axis had allowed Vichy France to hold on to the Third Republic’s colonies with the expectation that it would militarily defend them. In fact, part of the reason why the Axis let France remain independent was to keep its colonies out of Allied hands without a formal Axis occupation. Which also means the first week of the North African campaign was technically a war between the UK-US alliance and France. To be fair, General Eisenhower and the Anglo-American Combined Chiefs of Staff weren’t expecting the Armistice Army to put up any resistance at all, and instead they held out for eight weeks. But they were just too small to hold out against the invasion, and their loyalty to Vichy was never strong anyways. Eventually the Vichy commander Francois Darlan switched sides to the Allies (and became recognized as France’s legitimate head of state until his assassination) and most of the French colonial forces defected with him. The Armistice Army’s capitulation destroyed Hitler’s strategy for French independence because it showed its army could not defend the colonies, and showed that French civil servants and military commanders’ allegiance to Vichy regime was mostly weak.
As a southerner, its’s spell y’all. A contraction of “you” and “all”. I love you videos, and the accuracy in them.
Hi, you should do one video about the history of switzerland, how it came to be, the civil war and how it manage to survive despite alwais being between larger states. Love your videos😊
He had make a video about Switzerland before
The reason it always survived between larger states is really simple
The Cost / Reward simply didnt make sense.
Cost is extremly high, Reward extremly minimal. Such no reason to invade.
@@roijoleil268 aye, Switzerland didn't have any notable resources and it's located in the mountain (in which easy to defend and hard to attack) so any nation that want Switzerland must pay a significant price for a meagre returns
@Cypilsa yeah but it only explained why switzerland became neutral and not the creation of the country or the later civil war
1:53 made me laugh at Mussolini's concerned face
While despising everything about, I must admit that I am rather fond of Vichy France's flag. The personal standard of Petain in the tricolour just looks cool.
They had a banger anthem too
@@sirarchi5510 I just listened to it, i have actually never heard it before. While the lyrics are - as to be expected - rather questionable, it does have a very nice, almost jovial melody. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
It has to compete with the Marseillaise, though, and it can't win that fight.
@@varana And that adds even more power to the scene in Casablanca where Victor Laszlo leads the crowd in singing "La Marseillaise" in protest to Gestapo presence.
@@varana I'm not terribly familiar with national anthems around the world, so I had to listen to both. Marseillaise is definitely better than the Viche anthem, not to mention moving when performed well... but wow what a terrible blood soaked song to form a modern nation around. Listening the the American battle hymn at hockey games is bad enough (also a fantastic song). I'm glad that there are no French teams in the NHL:P. Listening to "Frenchmen the world wants to come murder your children, so burn them all to death. show no mercy" (paraphrasing the ideas as best I can grasp with my basic command of French) wouldn't be pleasant. Yuck.
LMAO @ Mussolini slowly popping up his head from behind the chalkboard at 1:53 😂😂
Without Vichy France we wouldn't have the movie Casablanca. Silver linings.
A good window in the interesting relationship Vichy had with the rest of the world: officially recognized yet obviously under a German thumb...
@@marseillais2687
Vichy actually gets represented as basically good because Captain Renault is a decent, if cynical, cop.
@Alan Pennie yes yes, I've seen the film. But that's what I'm saying. The Vichy regime is viewed as basically neutral to good: not necessarily how their viewed at face value today.
@@marseillais2687
They are interestingly ambiguous whereas The Allies are definitely good and The Nazis are definitely bad.
1:40 Very nice that you didn't forget about the (often ovelooked) colonies
On the one hand, having an axe on your flag is undeniably cool. On the other, I feel it makes it harder to convince anyone that you're not the bad guys.
Maybe if you're Rome, but even then...
@Toonrick12 The Roman Republic/Empire did a lot of great things but even so they could very easily be called bad guys
The thing is that this flag is basically a misconception of the modern era to represent Vichy France.
The French State ("L'État Français") used the exact same flag as the french republic, a plain blue-white-red. People just added Pétain's insign on it after the war in order to ensure no one would associate "France" and "Vichy France". It was part of the successful media stunts of De Gaulle, who tried very hard to make everyone recognise that his government in exile in London was the legitimate one.
@@nolanrichoux3538 Wow! i didn't know this. Just checked the wikipedia page, and there's no hammer shows in any of the flags
Not an axe, but a fasces, an old symbolic weapon from the ancient Rome Era.
0:25 your newspapers are pure gold!
"and so the British calmly dropped the subject...
And some bomb's."
What was said in the video is actually not entirely correct. Or rather it omitted many important facts. The french were given plenty of options to choose from when they recieved the british ultimatum, and they choose to do absolutely nothing (the worst option).
The british government gave the French fleet the following options:
"1. Sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans.
2. Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port.
If either of these courses is adopted by you we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation if they are damaged meanwhile.
3. Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans unless they break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies - Martinique for instance - where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated.
If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships yourself within 6 hours. Finally, failing the above, I have the orders from His Majesty’s Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German hands.”
Reminder, the US was still neutral at this time and it was unlikely that this would change anytime soon.
The french were given 5 options to choose from, with the 6th being a british attack. They did absolutely nothing, thus invoking said attack.
The worst part is that the French Admiral Gensoul refused to see the person sent by the british (a captain). He felt insulted that he would have to speak to a person of lower rank. The reason the british admiral Somerville sent a captain was that that captain spoke perfect french, so the risk of something being lost in translation was supposed to be low.
But the french admiral sent a low ranking officer instead, which caused confusion and cost a lot of time, which was running dangerously low while the negotiations were still underway.
But what is even worse is that the head of french naval operations, Admiral Darlan, had given specific orders that should such an ultimatum ever be sent, the commanding admirals should choose the option that would sent the fleet to a neutral nation, preferrably the US, if that was part of the Ulitmatum.
What did the french admiral in charge of the fleet at Toulon, Admiral Gensoul, do? He radioed to the Vichy Government, and told them he was given only 2 options, namely handling the fleet over to the british or sink it. He did NOT mention the options to sail it to a french port and be disarmed, or sail it to a neutral nation like the US for the duration of the war. The Vichy Government, only kowing about those 2 options and fearing retaliation by the germans, gave the order that the fleet should NOT be handed over to the british and should NOT be scuttled; leaving a battle against the british fleet as the only option.
This was one instance, the Battle of Mers El Kabir. In other ports, the negotiations went smoothly, with basically the complete rest of the french fleet being disarmed or handed over to the british. The person who bears the most responsability for this attack is the French Admiral Gensoul, who completely failed at every possible step.
Oh how I wish World History was taught universally by this man... If you listen to the narrative, he is very concise and yet comprehensive. If you watch, he is very capable of holding your attention. If you pause at the sections with detail, he is captivating...
1:05 "The British calmly dropped the subject... and some bombs on the french fleet"
1:10 the British soldier standing near a bomb made me laugh pretty hard.
It’s because the axis never had James Bisonette
True
Hi @@jamesbissonette8002
@@jamesbissonette8002 HE'S REAL?!?!
@@jamesbissonette8002 are you the legend every viewer of this channel has been talking about?
They don’t have enough Kellymoneymakers
>When France fell to Germany (and Italy if you're feeling generous)
>Italy 'just happy to be invited'
>1:51
Italy getting jabbed when it's not even a focus in the video lmao
This is an interesting what if scenario. Let's say that Vichy France did join the Axis. Even if it wasn't a productive member of the alliance it could have, in theory, provided garrison troops along the coast of Normandy. Would an extra number of Axis troops (even subpar ones) been able to blunt the Allied landing?
Probably not
No. In 1944 the Allies could bomb the $h!t out of anything German on the land. They would've just pulled some more bombers from bombing the German factories, prolonging the war for a while.
Nahhhhh.
The problem Germany had at Normandy wasn’t a manpower issue it was a supply issue. They didn’t have enough bullets to stop the invasion
They would just have waited for the Soviets to kill even more Nazis, lol.
1:28, Canada you do me proud.
I had to pause to correct the gross oversimplification. Britain did not demand that France hand the fleet over for safe keeping. The British ultimatum included five separate options for keeping the French fleet out of German hands, options which included moving the fleet to French holdings in the Caribbean or South America where the Germans and Italians could not get to it. The French ships in the UK were seized, with several fatalities aboard Surcouf. The French fleet at Alexandria interred itself and sat out the war until 1943 when it joined the Free French and reactivated. Only at Mers-el-Kbir (and later Dakar) was the French fleet fired upon, and that primarily because Gensoul (in command) was insulted by having a "lowly" Captain to negotiate with and refused to send the entire ultimatum to Vichy or accept either of the British offers that his superior, Darlan, had already approved of.
Loved reading the newspaper articles, so much work spent on a split second item!!
Mers-el-Kébir was a bit more complicated than that, they were given a few options
FINALLY another person who mentions this, thank you I am not the only one.
More context:
What was said in the video is actually not entirely correct. Or rather it omitted many important facts. The french were given plenty of options to choose from when they recieved the british ultimatum, and they choose to do absolutely nothing (the worst option).
The british government gave the French fleet the following options:
"1. Sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans.
2. Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port.
If either of these courses is adopted by you we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation if they are damaged meanwhile.
3. Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans unless they break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies - Martinique for instance - where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated.
If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships yourself within 6 hours. Finally, failing the above, I have the orders from His Majesty’s Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German hands.”
Reminder, the US was still neutral at this time and it was unlikely that this would change anytime soon.
The french were given 5 options to choose from, with the 6th being a british attack. They did absolutely nothing, thus invoking said attack.
The worst part is that the French Admiral Gensoul refused to see the person sent by the british (a captain). He felt insulted that he would have to speak to a person of lower rank. The reason the british admiral Somerville sent a captain was that that captain spoke perfect french, so the risk of something being lost in translation was supposed to be low.
But the french admiral sent a low ranking officer instead, which caused confusion and cost a lot of time, which was running dangerously low while the negotiations were still underway.
But what is even worse is that the head of french naval operations, Admiral Darlan, had given specific orders that should such an ultimatum ever be sent, the commanding admirals should choose the option that would sent the fleet to a neutral nation, preferrably the US, if that was part of the Ulitmatum.
What did the french admiral in charge of the fleet at Toulon, Admiral Gensoul, do? He radioed to the Vichy Government, and told them he was given only 2 options, namely handling the fleet over to the british or sink it. He did NOT mention the options to sail it to a french port and be disarmed, or sail it to a neutral nation like the US for the duration of the war. The Vichy Government, only kowing about those 2 options and fearing retaliation by the germans, gave the order that the fleet should NOT be handed over to the british and should NOT be scuttled; leaving a battle against the british fleet as the only option.
This was one instance, the Battle of Mers El Kabir. In other ports, the negotiations went smoothly, with basically the complete rest of the french fleet being disarmed or handed over to the british. The person who bears the most responsability for this attack is the French Admiral Gensoul, who completely failed at every possible step.
You mean let's ignore tgat the entire debacle was a case of malicious discommunication because the French fleet CO Gensoul deliberately withheld vital information from Vichy that they have a third choice (go to a neutral port and stay there) and made Vichy chose to refuse thr offer leading to the debacle... all because Gensoul can't accept the idea he talked with a naval Captain rather than an admiral despite the fact he's the only British officer on board who can speak fluent French?
By 'they' you meant the British of course... Acting responsibly, ethically and honorably, was on the table.
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 just imagine that : a country which is still officially your ally send a fleet, which you were sailing whith a few days prior, to your ports and blew your navy up because they were afraid of a thing that was never going to happened and didn't even happened two years later. Blaming all the fault on the French is a bit too much...
@@leosimon241 "never going to happen"
Yeah, as if they could guarantee that.
The massive downside was in the small chance the Nazis could seize the fleet, the British and their empire would be defeated, even more Jews eradicated, France permanently under Vichy control, Britain under-- at best-- a peace agreement with harsh terms imposed upon them or effectively devastated, and the US less likely to join the war.
0:25
"Mussolini liked the Pizzale Loreto and hoped to hang around there one day."
Just wait five years, you'll get your chance.
My favorite joke in the whole video. 😆
Explain baarle-hertog and baarle-naasau next! Or just all the weird borders of Belgium!
“Legit
Legit
Legit
Bite Me”
Cracked me up! Always good humor in these videos.
From a purely military sense, the Vichy regime doesn't initially appear too controversal: they were a rump state who didn't do anything (again, military-wise) but get kicked around by the Germans, Japanese, British, and even the Free French in Syria (they did fight Thailand relatively successfully though). In fact, they even kept their word regarding the French fleet: they promised the British in 1940 that it would never fall into German hands and indeed in 1942 they scuttled nearly all of it (77 modern ships).
Where I think the true and inexcusable shame that the Vichy regime brought onto France was her domestic policies: willingly taking part in the Holocaust will forever deny the regime any place in a conversation about it doing "right" during its existance.
They were quite effective at oppressing colonial subjects in Africa and defending their holdings against the Allies. Where many expected them to defect, they instead killed many Allies and were able to hold out long enough to allow for stronger reinforcements from Italy, significantly hindering the Allied advance from Africa towards Europe.
Very effective fighting by the Vichy there. French point of honour
the vichy regime was a complete disgrace for France, a bunch of antisemitic assholes who willingly went out of their way to take part in the holocaust and help nazy germany.
James Bisonette is probably the most famous patron ever.
I thought I had heard that Vichy France, formally, remained at war with Germany.
Yes, technically, it is true. France signed an armistice with Germany, meaning a suspension of hostilities. Opposite to what most people believe, France never signed a peace treaty with Hitler.
france was still technically at war with germany a true peace was supposed to be negotiated after the brits threw in the towel which they never did(thankfully)
technically France remained at war with Germany thoughout as a final peace treaty was never negoiated..everyone thought the British would come to terms in 1940 it looked like it at the time
Thank you, James.
It was so that the allies wouldn't invade South France while they completed their industrial focuses until Germany did the annex decision later when they needed more mils and civs.
Omg the newspaper jokes never disappoint, the last part of the Italian article was amazing
0:25 ... that newspaper deserves an award for actually having fully-written out jokes in the articles rather than just Lorem Ipsum even though it was on screen for literally an second
I wish he put it on screen for literally 2 seconds. Makes scrolling back to read the paper just a bit less tedious.
video idea: how many times brits bombarded copenhagen
Good shit
Pertain is a character that is shaded grey
The Canadian “bite me” 😂
The newspaper jokes he writes are unsung, they're really funny.
finally!!!!!!! A video explains something in which napoleon don't get involve!!!!!
0:25 - the newspaper front page incorrectly states here that after France's defeat UK had no allies. That is not true. At that point UK's only ally was Poland. Polish government existed (although in exile, as the Polish soil was occupied at the time by Soviets and Germans) and later even Polish army was formed to help the Brits fight the Germans.
1:50 the way Mussolini looked because he knows all to well how that feels made me die off laughter ='D
Awsome video lad!
"Mussolini celebrated by visiting Milan where he stated how much he liked the Piazzale Loreto and how he hoped to hang around there one day."
Yeah, he sure got his wish to "hang around" there, along with his mistress. They can thank the Italian Resistance for that.
Milan is beautiful. Stay away during Fashion Week.
@@michaeladkins6 bold of you to call those monstrous clown costumes "Fashion"
I always love reading the spinning newspapers, but wow, that last line was savage. (Granted, not unearned, but still, wow.)
About the North/South partake of France, a few month ago an historian discovers the original audio of the Armistice negotiation.
The German wasn't supposed to take the southwest Atlantic seashore, telling they will add an article to the Armistice, to clearly stated that Bordeaux and the south of Bordeaux will remains in Unoccupied France (Bordeaux was supposed to be the new French capital city)
So, this probably plays a huge role in the relation between Vichy and the Germany after, as the German clearly shown they can't be trust.
Fun fact, Vichy isn't only famous for that, at least in France. Here, we know it as a spa town and for candies called "pastilles de Vichy" (aka Vichy pastille/lozenges/cough drops).
Mussolini wanting to hang around the Piazzale Loretto might be, in my personal opinion, one of your best jokes ever
“Bite me” idk why but for some reason I’m still laughing
"The Germans didn't feel that France would fare too well in an all-out war"
That's total BS though. German high command including Hitler himself always held the French soldiers in high regard and the French army was the most powerful on the planet before the 1940 campaign. There's no way the Germans wouldn't have wanted the French on their side against bolchevism, and wouldn't have preferred them over Italy.
''the second most powerful in Europe''
The 2nd most powerful army, in france.
@@d.k8257 If you decide to have a military alliance with France (Vichy France was France), you let them rebuild their army. Think about it. Such an army would have been far greater than anything any Axis nation besides Germany could offer. You think the Germans wouldn't have wanted two million Frenchmen on their side? They'd have won the war.
Actually im curious - what did Nazi ideology consider the Frank race? - because they favoured the English and Scandinavians but hated the Slavic
@@icysaracen3054 The French were considered aryans like the British.
@@lahire4943 while Hitler had high esteem of the French I really don't think he considered them as equals at all
Love ur vids so funny and informative
They didnt officially joined the Axis side but many were forcedly recruited and some voluntarily joined the German army.
"The British calmly dropped the subject... and some bombs..." 💀😂