Parts Cannon DIAGNOSIS! Ford E350 5.8 Fuel Injected
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- Опубліковано 2 бер 2023
- No Crank No Start Fuel Smell | 1995 Ford 1 ton 5.8 351
• No Crank No Start Fuel...
Can it be fixed? BAD Fuel! Ford E350 5.8 • Can it be fixed? BAD F...
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Good to see the EEC 4 60 pin PCM connector, I designed the injection plastic mold to produce it in the 90s. Also the molds for the seal gaskets.
Not a mechanic, but I was an electronics technician. Once you verified power and ground circuits, the only thing that could cause this condition would be the relay drive circuit in the computer. You did your due diligence in your diagnostics and more. Well done, Ray.
Everything about this screams failing ECU for sure,
Considering the age of this vehicle, I would bet theres a few electrolytic capacitors that are bad as well. electrolytic caps have an average life span of 10 years. So let's put them in a metallic box, sitting above a hot engine and see how long they last. "sarcasm". Another youtuber "Sarahntune" had a similar issue with a ford Ranger of that era. The capacitors in the pcm were all expanded. Those pcm's are no longer available so she had to go aftermarket high performance PCM.
@@wyokaiju992 if the relay output is current limited/thermally protected a short in wiring could make it turn on and off as it heat up and cools down
@@fuzzy1dk And yet. Ford ECUs of this age have this issue chronically.
Its not a short. Its a classic failure of these ECUs. They are 30+ years old now.
Watching you follow wires is a lot more fun and accurate than when I have to do I myself
The barely flickering check engine light is just like the fuel relay, where it's barely getting a good ground from the ECM.
That was what I was think too.
Ray, here's a spin-off of your videos.
I was having way too much fun offroading in my Class C rv, hit a pothole and knocked the slideout off track, causing it not to close correctly.
I made an appointment to get it fixed, but the Steelhead are running NOW 💔.
Watching your videos, especially the diagnostics, inspired me to figure out what was going on. It took me a few days because I am old, small built, and can't see up close! 😅 I conceded I could not do it..... Until I remembered how you figure things out.
Long story shorter 🤣, I used stabilizers to jack up the slideout, ratchet straps to pull it in, AND THIS OLD LADY FIXED THE SLIDEOUT!!!
THANK YOU for instilling confidence in an old lady. ❤️❤️❤️❤️ Now, I'm going fishing😅.
Have an awesome day.
ha ha I would have tried hitting same pot hole in reverse. you done good!
@@jhonditch4269 🤣
Are you up in BC? Steelhead are the best.
@@michaellawrence6677 Vancouver Island ❤️❤️❤️ paradise for me ❤️❤️
Awesome girl! Us BC old ladies gotta get er done when we need to eh!? Wish I was down there though with the fish instead of up here at the other end of the province with the snow 🤣
I am glad you have that much patience. I'd have junked it a long time ago.
Love hearing the thought process out loud, this was satisfying to watch
when I have issues with anything, be it the car or any electromechanical item, my problem solving usually goes along these lines, ascertain what the underlying issue is, decide plan of action, locate all relevant tools and equipment and bring to the work site, look at the item, assess what might be the issue, then discuss with oneself ( at this point if anyone walks into the work space, they immediately look for whom I am talking to lol ) problem solving is not only physical it is psychological too, lol the power of the mind vs the immobility of the problem
I really like the fact that Ray actually put a Belgium artillery clip in after repeating the "parts canon" sentence. The European artillery lover viewers are not forgotten here.
The parts cannon cutaways are pure gold. Thanks for the laugh
I hope you're right about the PCM being the issue, but I would have load tested the PCM grounds with a test light before proceeding - battery and ignition feeds too. Checking grounds with resistance/continuity test will not always detect a problem in those circuits.
Ray needs a Picoscope to take his diag to the next level. So much more information available when you can log events, especially if the fault is intermittent.
If you were to have me guess I would have sworn that he had some kind of scope capability. It's such a basic tool now if you do diag.
@@InsideOfMyOwnMind I couldn't agree more, I've seen some amazing diag from Ivan and Eric O, it just amazes me. Ivan in particular with a crank position signal and a pressure transducer or an amp clamp on the starter.
@NNA Nice story I bet your mate moved into legendary stays!!
Ray, I know this is a late comment and it was an excellent diag, but one thing you still want to check after you get the new ECU is the MAP Sensor. It will cause all the symptoms you were experiencing with vacuum related issues. If the new ECU doesn't fix the rough running, that is the next step. Didn't see you mention it.
@NNA That was the best UA-cam comment I've ever seen.
This video should be mandatory viewing at UTI :D it's amazing listening to Ray explaining what is happening, his train of thought in the things he is doing and how he shows the steps he has taken to get there and it's not just randomly trying things.
As a past instructor, technical team leader of all the driveability classes at UTI/NASCAR tech and rewriting a lot of the curriculum there. Also 25+ years as a driveability tech. I wouldn’t say this is a very good video to show students. While he does explain things mostly correct his critical thinking skill suffer a great deal. Throw enough parts and anything can be fixed. I agree the ECM is probably faulty but the check engine light flickering showed a ground issue and 5 volt reference should also be checked as well as checking grounds with an ohm meter is very bad practice. It ran better with a huge vacuum leak and a external ground. I guess an O2 is shorted to power or ground or 5 volt ref is shorted to power or ground.
@@CodycoWeb that's just like your opinion... easy to give your opinion after watching the video... would you or anyone else have done any better/different if you had been presented with the same vehicle with the same issues?
Couldn’t agree more. When you pay 40k plus for a diploma. The things they teach at uti are pretty basic. I learned a lot more diagnosis procedure and problem Solving at my shop I started work at pre- graduation. Don’t get me wrong. It’s a very good school. They do a very good job at drilling theory into your brain. And likely causes of such symptoms. But the hands-on diagnosis portions are lacking this skill in the classes.
I’m used to dealing with non-restored 30+ year old cars, and if I see multisystem failures it’s almost always grounding failures due to corrosion. That’s half the power system, but usually the failure point - barring a short burning insulation in the harness (my 88 cougar has to be rewired due to insulation failure zorching the harness.)
And yeah unless you test under load an ohmmeter can provide false-good test results, it doesn’t provide enough current to challenge an intermittent high resistance point.
I find that you're doing much more interesting stuff since you have your own shop. Less servicing, more actual troubleshooting and repairs. I like it.
Love it! Only miss the dooodlydoos
Your a genius Ray! Too bad there aren’t many technicians willing to take the time to diagnose vehicles like you do. This truck would have been junked, however, for someone that can’t afford newer - this is it.
if it was up north it would be a brown pile of iron oxide with a bad computer.
These past two episodes are my favorite kind. Love troubleshooting along with you.
Nice job diag. Also check all the engine, body, grounds to make sure you are getting a complete ground circuit. Sometimes they get left off or up north it is common to rot off from the salt. Thanks
You know, with the check engine light flickering like it was, and the relay also buzzing, I would assume correlation between the two. Maybe there is a short inside the PCM. Idk, feels weird to disregard the check engine light like that to me. Maybe a little bit of tunnel vision on the fuel delivery and not looking at other things that point to bad pcm?
I'm currently at 16:40.. so one thing to do also is just clean any harness connectors/eyelets to chassis ground. Being in a coastal area, they get corrosion quicker than normal.and OBD1 cars seem to rely on chassis grounds a lot.
Also just pull out the ECM/ECU and inspect the back side of the board for corrosion.
I work a lot on 90s Nissans, and those are common issues with those OBD1 cars. I'll keep playing through.
Yeah, pretty much what I would do and see also. I would, for shits and giggles open up the ECU and see if there is any visual damage.
ray word for thought i've been an electronic tech for the last 50 years in the amusment industry and one thing that drives up the wall is called a halo fracture where the sodder joint at the header pen is sodder threw the board it cracks around the pen and causes a make brake situation i think your on the right track with the ferd good luck
Mate this was like watching a great detective movie, all the clues slowly coming out as you move through this mystery diagnosis. Hope the brain can rest over the weekend and something comes to light for you as Golf Ties and coke cans are not exactly helping you, you will sort it soon mate.
Keep Safe Keep Strong 🦘🦘🦘🦘💖💖
great video ray im so proud of you thanks for sharing
I was thinking from the moment you found the buzzing relay and stated that it was running rich, this sure sounds like a failed Ford EEC-IV ECU. This is pretty common with certain Foxbody Mustang ECUs (A9L catch code IIRC, 5.0 5-speed), there are a few capacitors on the main board in the ECU that leak their electrolyte and cause a whole host of symptoms. The 2 common ones are failure to drive certain relays (fuel pump), and when they do run they get progressively richer and eventually stall and won't restart for awhile. I've never checked it when one of these have failed and still "runs", but I wonder if the 5v reference voltage line goes screwy, that would cause any of the sensors that rely on that 5v (TPS, ECT, MAP, etc...) to misreport and may explain why they run so poorly. If caught before the electrolyte has corroded away the board too badly, they can usually be repaired for a few dollars worth of capacitors.
It seems as time goes on, we are going to probably start seeing these issues on "newer" ECUs. I know it is not just these older Ford ECUs that are having these problems. Its not really a design flaw IMO, its simply a product of the time they were produced. The electrolytic capacitors that are failing probably only had an expected lifespan of 15-20 years, and here we are with them pushing 30+ years in a really tough environment for electronics (hot, cold, heat cycles, vibration, corrosion, etc..).
Once I heard the buzzing relay I thought the same thing. Had the same issue on my obd1 nissan. Car wouldn't run at all and had a buzzing relay. I could remove that relay and the one next to it would start buzzing. All the wiring checked out so I swapped in another ecu and its been good since.
Electrolytic capacitors are probably the worst type of capacitor out there because they do suffer so many problems with getting hot and leaking the electrolyte. In fact, if you look at any of them, you'll actually see a cross pattern etched into the top where they are designed to blow when they get too hot or too much voltage.
I’m running the original computer in my ‘91 Mercury Marquis, and I know sooner or later it’s gonna surprise me. Already intermittently wants to stall when I put it in gear.
Very common among people restoring old timey radios and ham radio gear. Usually don't even try to diagnose anything until all the electrolytic caps have been replaced.
Older 90s Dakotas pull timing when the caps are bad in the ECU. I agree. time to dissect the ecu.
Ray, these pcms were notorious for 3 leaking capacitors, one controls the fuel pump, one controls the maf and I'm forgetting what the other one controls, but with your soldering skills I'm confident your capable of the repair. I repaired mine in my 93 mustang for under 20 bucks.
It also wouldn't surprise me if that module also had some cracked solder joints too. Especially since he mentioned it got worse as it warned.
The thing is the ecu will probably run okay under most operating conditions without the caps. Them leaking will cause the electrolyte to eat up the copper traces on the ecu pcb, which will cause all of those random symptoms.
Maybe pop the engine computer out, open the lid, and see whether there are any leaking electrolytic capacitors that might have corroded circuit board traces (the dead capacitors themselves aren’t going to cause major issues like this, but if the traces are corroded through, that definitely can). Ford’s mid to late 80s era fuel injection engine computers have become notorious recently for this problem, which can cause any number of serious but bizarre run issues.
Bingo! These old Fords are notorious for that.
I’m not a mechanic, but your problem solving/logic skills are spot on, so I’m sure this is your “smoking gun”
This was a Scanner Danner-level diagnostics case study. Great job! You’d be a great diagnostics instructor.
This was old school Ray. Everything that had me subscribing to the channel a year ago. Eric O would be proud of your diag on this one.
Now THAT is diligent wrenching!
Hey Ray. Recently went through the EXACT same issues on a '95 F350 5.8 E4OD. Water intrusion in the PCM. Reman unit was pretty cheap. No programing required. And...one of my rocket scientist co workers had already UNLOADED the parts cannon on it! Made my "bones" in a fleet of EEC IV trucks. Love it when they have to admit the really don't know everything. Just make sure the engineering (part) number matches exactly. THATS a pain in the ass you dont need. Good luck from the Panhandle
Panhandle guy too. Bay County.
As backup and before replacing the ecm I'd want to test-light, a.k.a. load test, the wire from ecm to relay.
Wow 1 minute old, I've not been this early yet! Nice! G'Day from Brisbane, Australia Ray!
Damn it is good to see a mechanic that knows how to actually electrically troubleshoot something nowadays besides just changing parts I was an aircraft electrician for 20 years and understand what you're doing
Rainman Ray's Repairs... I thought from the first video when you showed that relay buzzing that it was a grounding issue either in the fuse box or the PCM. Great job brother and thanks for sharing the process with us.
I’m in my 50’s and I remember the big Machine that had all the graphs on it. It had a tail pipe sensor alternating clamps distributor clamp and some other things. Diagnosing is the hardest part of mechanic work. You are rocking it like a boss.
Thanks for your channel, I have learned so much. I have 3 late 90's trucks that I love. Easy to work on.
I love the diagnostics how you showed your reasoning and walked us through how you tested it. I hate electrical gremlins they can be such a pain. Good luck and keep up the great videos
Thanks for taking us along on this one Ray. Wow. And yes, I think you're on the right track for sure.
Love the jenky ignition key.
Loving the manually directed diagnosis, this is becoming a lost art. On the multi meter to check continuity look at Diagnose Dan on one of his latest videos he has a no crank no start but shows that a test light will show up a fault that a multi meter misses due to there being continuity but no current carrying ability on a connection. Am sure that you already are aware but still a good one to throw in there.
Got to love OB1 i think you got it when you grounded the PCM at the test port(ALCL) or the ECM whichever one it hits first, and it would not flash codes. It runs to good to be injectors when it runs till the issue returns. Waiting to see next video!
I had a simular troubleshooting sortie recently, with my ancient (but lovable) 1993 Plymouth Voyager minivan. The trans was stuck in limp mode after a long period of increasingly frequent, limp mode excursions...which usually could be temporarily solved, by disconnecting the battery to reset the modules. Like most problems on most ancient vehicles...there were multiple sources to the limp mode issue. Much head scratching, perusing wiring diagrams, cursing, railing at the Gods and tilting at windmills ensued but eventually, the main sources were whittled down to two...the relay which supplies power to the PCM and one of the shifter position switches. Now, with the help of various deities and the confidence born from owning an AAA roadside assistance card, I roam the highways and byways with a light heart and a carefree mind...and about 70 pounds of shop tools.
Diagnosing those OBD 1 cars was a bit of a pain. I ended up getting both Ford and GM OBD 1 readers and they made life much easier. Ironic that those readers were more money than some OBD 2 readers.
That's why I just used my digital multimeter. Old school mechanics back then (70's, and 80"s) blew out every circuit they tested with the old analog multimeters, LOL
You should keep your eyes open for a used OTC Monitor 2000 code reader kit for all the pre OBD2 vehicles.
I think your on the right track. Often in older cars the ground gives this kind of problems.
You have way more patience than I do when following electrical flow charts.
I love the "scotty was here" on the white board
Great video on diagnosing a vehicle that cannot talk to you but has complicated systems that can fail such as the old OBD system in this vehicle. Those wiring diagrams are invaluable. How can a layman get their hands on those diagrams without an expensive subscription that we cannot write off as a cost of business? Eric O is also a great diagnostician.
Another great electrical diagnosis video..(my favourite!) ...I cannot wait for the follow up diagnosis about the rich running.
The buzzy relay fits with the blinky check engine. Could well be a voltage regulator inside the PCM is shagged. As you said - once it heats up the voltage on there buzzes the same way the light and the relay does.
Great diagnosing of this problem. Looking forward to part 2.
Ray . I know you read some of these cause youve responded in videos. Thanks for all the extra lighting. It really makes a difference for us your viewers. I know you addressed this in a video but im from the show me state so needed some time to see the lighting in action.
Ray...100% Correct diagnosis! Clever old you! 🥰
UA-camr Shango066 had the exact same issue with a 1992 E350 Econoline. He made a video 2 weeks ago repairing the PCM/ECU.
Failed capacitors had leaked on the circuit board and corroded the traces away. He repaired the board and replaced the capacitors...100% successful repair!
I remember that video! Shango066 is one of my favorite UA-camrs! 🙂
@@u.p.tinkering Me too! He's Awesome! I think his day time job is also a mechanic.
My knitting club and I love watching your videos in the morning with our tea 😎
That's obviously a digital relay. In an analog circuit. You can tell that by the way it is, cycling the relay is it trying to do pulse-width modulation. That Ford is either ahead-of-its-time, or somebody's been mixing digital and analog parts. LOL good job Ray, keep up the good work.
Had a '96 Mazda B2300, same as the Ford Ranger electronics-wise. Started and ran great when cold. When shut off, as in a store parking lot, after coming out of the store it would not restart for the owner. I found no pressure\fuel in the fuel rail. In this case, when the under-hood temperature was up the PCM did not energize the fuel pump relay coil. When the under-hood temp was down it started and ran perfectly. Ordered a remanufactured PCM. Guy on the counter at the parts supply asked me "how do you know that's the problem?" Well, duh, because I diagnosed it by eliminating everything else like the fuel pump, fuel pump relay, wiring, etc. Replace the PCM and never had another problem. I don't know if it is age, use, heating and cooling cycles, or what, but but those PCMs fail in funky ways...
Love your diag process, it's great listening to your logic and coming up with an answer! Awesome!!
Ray, I sure hope you are getting paid something for all the time you are putting in. Very educational for us home shop mechanics.
For the fact that direct ground to battery resolves the buzzing issue, I’d check chassis ground or whatever ground supplies the ecu ground. Probably rust or corrosion on a ground creating a weak ground which may explain the check engine light odd illumination
RainMan great old school wire tracing. Checking every point that might cause failures
What a Frankenstein this van is. Back in the day, one of the techs I worked with at the time, had a Ford Ranger he was working on with the same issue. A new ECM fixed it. This issue most likely is affecting the 5-volt signal to the engine sensors making them go haywire too making it run like crap.
Ray before replacing the PCM you want to check the resistance of any coil/solenoid run by the PCM. Examples Injectors, EGR solenoid etc. and test them both cold and hot. If one is shorting out it will contribute to the issue with the PCM.
I think you are on the right track with the ecm. Makes sense with the check engine light freaking out. The only thing I’d suggest is checking those grounds again with a load. A vom isn’t a load. The other thing you could do to prove that is, check the grounds with voltage on the other side, meaning you should have very low voltage showing on your meter due to not having a ground. I’d be 100% before winging an ecm.
Ray is an awsome teacher. he can turn his hand to anything the traits of a true mechanic /technician and there aren't many that would take this job on because of the van's age and because there ain't no OBD2 connector. Thanks ray👍
I would pull the ECM out and open it up and look at the board to see if you have some corrosion or dirt or bug on any of the microprocessors. Never know what you will find. Plus it will only cost a little time. Great channel!
My goodness, Ray! Your patience and perseverance amaze me! Using logic, common sense, and being an armchair DIYer, I think you are on the right track. People like you on here give me the confidence that I may have some more patience someday and may want to try a Rainman or VGG type revival. Would prefer a fun old classic, but a 90's furd Pickup would be practical. Thank you again for what you and the Wife Unit are doing. Glad things are going well for y'all!
Not VGG! LOL;)
Hello Ray! I think you are on the right track! I recently had a similar grounding situation on my Ford Explorer 2006 with 4.0 liter SOHC My check engine light was on and the codes were for all of these, all the 4 o2 sensor heater circuits open, the EGR circuit open and the gas tank vent valve open. The common grounding problem was the engine PCM computer! Had a new PCM unit replaced and programed by Ford dealer and the problem was solved!! Hurray for me. This was 6 months ago and it is still working great!!
You are on the right track. I had similar symptoms on my 1994 ford Ranger. It ended up being the ecm due to leaking electrolytic capacitors. I replaced the capacitors and in now runs great. For you future reference, the expected life expectancy of an electrolytic capacitor is 20 to 30 years. My capacitors failed at 27 years. I suspect that this is a common problem for these older ecms. If you take the cover off of the ecm you can easily see the leaking "can" type capacitors if this is the problem.
The same phenomenon is present in vintage hi-fi stereos.with their capacitors. I recently resurrected a 1970's era Pioneer turner and amplifier which had been in storage for the better part of 30 years. All the caps were matched and replaced for a total cost of $600 with labor...
I think you're 100% correct Ray! I truly do believe it is the PCM. Good job!
Now THIS is why I watch your channel. I love your thinking process and logical conclusions. I'm a retired IT professional and appreciate your talent.
i love these diagnosis style videos!
Is the cold start 'function' depending on the same ground? In that case the rich running could be caused by the same ground problem... maybe. Love your analysis methods.. thanks Ray! You're on the right track!
14:28. Ray check all your powers and grounds at the ecm . The dim c.e.l says the ecm itself is not grounding properly.
You always impress me with your trouble shooting skills. As a side note, I used to for for FLUKE and I may have built your test meter. :)
Had a similar issue on my 5.8 Bronco. If the van has the TFI module mounted on the distributor move it!! These Chinese modules cannot take the heat like the old Motorcraft ones did, they will give faultly info to ecm causing it to run like crap then stall. I did the parts cannon too because I had put a new TFI module on it. McCully Racing makes a fantastic kit that gets the module off the distributor and into a cooler location. I did this and problem solved. If you get the kit and relocate it use a brand new Echlin grey module. Good luck!
We molded plastic components for Motorcraft, the USA produced plastic always tested better than offshore producers.
As messy as Ray is, he has a certain way at reaching a logical conclusion. Ray is indeed a madman at work 😅. Bravo!
Amazing work Ray. You are the Rainman.
ARRRRRGH !!!! You brought back memories of using the infamous Ford Breakout Boxes. I will have nightmares for weeks to come.
Like a phoenix from the ashes, this E350 will live to see another day.
This the exact reason I kept my OBD I Scanner. You never know when your going to need it.
I love these diag videos. Gives me a better understanding of the new cars. Im used to carbs, coils, plugs fuel and run systems. Not all this electronic crud
Good diagnosis, steadily working through the systems.
Love this one. We have a 1995 E-150 5.8L Windsor. It works great. Usually 15 MPG. It's difficult to change the 2 front plugs on the passenger side, I used to access them by taking the wheel off. Last time I removed the alternator, that was easier. I have replaced the EGR and fixed leaking eshaust manifolds. Thanks. Looking forward to seeing the next step. Mike
Bravo to you for keeping your 28+ yo OBD1 on the road !
@@peted5217 You can check out some of our videos and see where it's taken us. Thanks Mike
@@rickwensel2313 It's not easy. The Ford E's are pretty close quarters, we have done a lot of travelling in our old van, lots of road trips on our channel.
It's the PCM they're known to have water intrusion issues
the inconsistent check engine light was a dead giveaway as that is a dedicated circuit straight from the PCM
Given the inability to run the OBD1 diag, i'd say you are on the right track with the bad module. Might wanna pick up an obd1 reader just for funsies.
Love this video…..very deep into the old school diagnostics………did anyone else catch the Scotty was here on the white board.?????
"Scotty was here" LOL 🤪 @26:34
I really enjoyed watching your diagnosis process. Anyone can replace parts but diagnosis requires thinking and logic. The behavior of that check engine light would also lead me to suspect the pcm especially since u confirmed the grounds to the pcm were good
Ray you have an unbelievable amount of patience there should be a holiday in your honour ,since April 1 is already taken I would start a motion that April 2nd is Rainman day !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nice diagnosis Ray! You are spot-on.
good detective work Ray, go for forward to part 3.
Good morning to all.
Golf tees lol used them all the time back in the day...was fortunate enough my brother golfed 😁
Haven't seen you work on a van or box truck on a while. You're a good man' Ray! A lesser man would have had a look at that and said "Sorry, I can't help ya"! I think you're on the right track, and I think a pulsating drive signal for the "Check Engine" light exists for the same reason as the pulsating relay for the fuel pump. Maybe the internal power supply for the computer is pulsating!
This is a great video Ray. I’ve always said when there’s a problem in a vehicle, there are some common denominators, or a common denominator.
I have no idea if your on the right track or not but what you explained makes sense , i found it very interesting and learned something new , thank you Ray keep up the good work and I look forward to the next video with more updates to see if the "junk van" will run better .
Good morning Ray thanks for the live yesterday really enjoyed it. I love these types of videos. Great job I totally agree with everything you did. Good luck with it
I like old Ford trucks, but this one... Jack up the horn button and put another truck under it, LOL
You are on the right track. There is a problem with the module.
I do automotive electrical here in Calgary and there has been numerous vehicles that run into the same problem namely older dodge vehicles with the map sensor once it got heat soaked it would not function so I 110% agree with your diagnosis everything you’ve said, makes sense
Hello and thank you for a great video. Great diagnosis and great watching you work.
Just found your channel and I absolutely love your content! Thank you for the OBD1 diagnosis and walk through!