So sad that as of this time, so many of the main cast have passed away. Mira Furlan being the latest. So much acting skill that they brought to this under appreciated piece of work.
I don't think there's a scifi fan who has seen it that wouldn't put B5 in their top 3-5 shows ever made, when it first came out it was pretty much the gold standard over everything else. It's not that it's under-rated, its just old enough that less people have seen it. Much like Lorien ;p
@@chrisanderson7820 The people who dont put it in the top 3 (at worst) dont understand what makes Babylon 5 great: *THE WELL DEVELOPED CHARACTERS who are all of them part of the unique plotline!* This is a result of the writing brilliance of JMS ... in combination with the actors. Too bad the studio "screwed up" by not committing to all five seasons, which made JMS screw up the plot a little.
Honestly as a fan of battle on 5 I am glad that it stays under the radar seeing what woki wood has done to the other great science fiction franchises. Even now they want to try to remake the series. And it terrifies me considering what they did to Star Wars star trek doctor who The Lord of the Rings. And even the Marvel movies. Everything that the modern movie making industry touches completely and totally turns to s***. It is why I am so against ever seeing a remake of some of these old classics!
There is nothing like this show. I've seen so many brilliant sci-fi TV shows, Deep Space 9, Battlestar, many others... but Babylon 5 just has a timeless, unaffected beauty in its philosophy and in its drama. The utter depth and brilliance of so many of the characters blends perfectly with the charm of the production design, makeup, costumes and sets. Many shows have great drama, really great drama... but this show just has something more than drama. It evokes such a beautiful sense of wonder and awe about existance, life, people... When it makes profound statements they don't seem out of place or shoved in; they fit. They are woven into the fabric of what the show is. What I like about it I guess is that, as Daniel S has said below, it really captures and evokes something almost spiritual about the universe but from an athiestic perspective. I mean you can say, "We're just chemicals and neurons." or you can say, "We're love, wonder, passion, knowledge." and both of those statements are true. The only difference is a use of imagination and a change of perspective. Babylon 5 I think tries hard to say that ideas of higher meaning and higher beauty are not limited to religion. It understands that magic is everywhere. That there is nothing that is not magic. People forget to think about the world in that way and this show reminds them. Always my favorite.
'My heart and I don't speak anymore more.' That is such a powerful line, i know I've felt like this at times in my life and to some extent I still do. Life can truly beat the joy and happiness out of you.
I couldn't agree more. Being old, I can tell you the mystery and wonder of it all does fade away and all we're left with is a desire to peacefully live and appreciate what time is remaining. People wonder why old folks cry so easily. It's because the less time they have left, the more they value it. Not enough people appreciate the simple things. Too wrapped up in politics and things they can't control. This is a great scene. B5 was a great show.
@@mr.t993 Oh no, Hollywood (and the BBC) writing turned to crap much earlier than that. Sometimes it's the best effort against impossible schedules, sometimes it's sheer laziness, and sometimes they want to shove "The Message: at you while forgetting that providing a "message" requires subtlety, and it has to be wrapped in an engaging story.
@@mr.t993 it started with the first writer's strike of 2007-2009, some shows like Jericho (about civil war in the US) were cancelled, some like BSG or Kyle XY or Heroes were ruined in later seasons. The strike was about difference in payment: an actor could receive a million for an episode while storywriters' payment was fixed up to $60k per season, or even less. And storywriter doesn't just write a plot, they have to fix the timeframe for each scene, like, who speaks at when, etc. Anyway, every writer strike ended in failure and we've got beautiful images with zero plot.
B5 speeches were always profound, never preachy. And so very, very powerful. Lorien putting immortality into perspective this way is a great example. Humans struggle to find love that will last our brief lifetimes. To a being that had lived for billions of years, how many relationships have come and gone? Although I always find JMS's writing interesting, because he is a self-avowed Atheist, but tends to write the idea that the *universe* is somehow sentient, makes decisions and chooses the direction of life.
There is a factor in the visible universe, a set of universal constants, that means carbon is produced in abundance. The entropy of carbon, its 'downhill', is towards increasing complexity, so life could potentially be everywhere. This feature of the B5 universe (immortal races being followed by races with long lives and then shorter lives) is one of many inspired by religious tales (Enoch walked with Elohim and was not, for Elohim took him. His son, Methuselah lived 969 yrs, Lamech 777yrs, Noah 950... it goes downhill after that). Like Tolstoy's parable 'The Grain', Straczynski puts his own spin on this narative, with a number of hints towards the future of the sentient races: a telepath who 'becomes' (we know not what), a whole race trapped at the moment of some transformation, the perception of Kosh when he leaves his 'encounter suit', a future human historian who steps INTO an encounter suit and, of course, Sheridan 'sleeping in light.' Like Daniel S says, it's not "preachy", it's mostly just there in the background, a counterpoint to all the adventure, misery and death.
+Daniel S the reason why JMS write the way he does, even those he is an atheist he respect the character beliefs, whatever those beliefs are. Unlike a lot of writers who poke fun at peoples by using characters with the same beliefs system. Here is a quote that sum everything up, "I mean I'm an atheist myself, but I don't have to believe in Minbari to write about Minbari. I think if that person is a religious character, then you have to treat them with integrity and deal with them properly. As a result, this show is very popular with a lot of religious folks."
Wayne Alexander has to be the best supporting actor, if not the best actor altogether in the whole series. His Sebastian gave me goosebumps every time. As did Lorien.
I was named Lorien, after this guy (luckily, I didn’t get his looks) but but is my first time seeing this clip, or seeing anything of him from the show. Mind-blown from the wisdom shared
ElegantPaws01 - as do I. I loved Star Trek (before it went mega commercial with the latest series of films). But - even at it's best - Star Trek could not move me like Babylon 5 could at it's respective best. Star Trek was like a fabulous comic book - come to life. Whereas B5 was somewhat like Shakespeare gone sci-fi. Both are great - but very different.
My grandmother said much the same thing as she came loath visiting her local town centre to find out someone else she knew has died, until there wasn't anyone else left from her childhood.
This was very profound. My parents have gone and just about all of their generation. Now I'm the older generation and along with various health issues I can feel it's me and my generation who are going to be disappearing into the night forever at an increasing number. Life is indeed too short.
Wayne Alexander was so good in B5. It's crazy to think he's around 80 now. He played so many roles on B5 (Sebastian, Lorien, G'dan (Narn), a Drazi and a Drakh) and all so different.
Incredible writing never ages. JMS is a true artist. I could well imagine in a few hundred years this script being used as an example of how adept writers were in the 20th/21st century... Just outstanding.
This is one of the best monologues of the series and that's saying something and indeed Wayne Alexander kills it, wonderfull performance, exactly the right tone.
The Marvel universe has beings called the Elders of the Universe. Each of them is the last survivor of one of the first races to achieve sentience in the universe. All discovered the potential to live forever if they could maintain the will to continue living (and thus all of them developed some goal that could be striven toward but never fully achieved -- seeing everything in the universe in person, preserving every unique life form, object, and culture from extinction, seeding every dead world with life, mastering every game of skill in the universe, comprehending every mystery of the universe, and so on). Almost all of them are at least 10 or so billion years old (the youngest known, the Obliterator, is 5.5 billion years old -- his species had survived for billions of years until he decided his eternal goal was to murder every sentient being in existence, and he started by killing his own species). The weird thing is that, even though they're not from the same species, or even galaxy sometimes, they all call each other brother/sister/sibling. I didn't really think about *why* they have that sense of being siblings until I saw this scene in Babylon 5. It makes sense that they treat each other as siblings, because they're the only other beings on their level of existence that they can have real friendships with -- everyone else is there and gone in the blink of an eye in comparison to their lifespans, and the other beings with similar lifespans were never mortal (Eternity, Death, etc.) except for Galactus (part of whom was the last survivor of the previous universe, Galan of Ta'a) -- and Galactus the Devourer of Worlds is kind of dangerous to have as a friend, even if he were inclined to want a friend.
I think, in his own way, Lorien is a rather tragic figure himself Like he says, he's lived too long, seen too much. Watched the passing of friends, family, loved ones. seen his race diminish to the point that, I think, there are too few of them now to even be CALLED a race. Seen wars and death and destruction, watched his 'Children' pass, either dieing, or moving beyond him. I think what he says is, perhaps, the only way he prevents himself from falling into despair and madness like, I think, some of his fellows must have done.
There has to be a reason he spent his time in a pit cave in shadow central. What could ever possibly be there, come there but an opportunity to do one last, relevant deed. One last thing to edge the world into a direction for the better. One last gift he bestows upon the galaxy before leaving.
@@saberiandream316 Considering the Hey look life phase of the universe is only a blink compared to the whole timeline you can expect.. whee... better get a flashlight that never runs out. you are gonna need it.
@@saberiandream316 Well, not if it happens at a snails pace! Seriously, suns and other cosmic bodies exist for billions of years and even for immortals that is a long long time!
Yolo right, do whatever you want without repercussions cause thats it. A candle that barely has time to truly light any way. A candle that wastes its entire existence on that smallness of its being until it is snuffed out never to be relit. Truly that belief is a far greater tragedy then an eternal love.
@@dreamingflurry2729 Would you now? By extension anything you take pleasure or happiness in now would also lose its appeal over time.Say you might enjoy bowling now. How many games would it take until you lost interest and never wanted to play again? Eventually would be more of a curse than a blessing methinks, especially for us humans who are so driven to excel at everything we do as fast as possible.
@@loka7783 Then you move on to other things! Hell, in the end you will probably become a truly well rounded person because in time you will probably also try things you dislike now :)
Personally, I think this quote is wrong. Lorien clearly is a compassionated being, but has seen and experienced so much that he no longers wants the possibility of pain that love brings. As a result, he hid from everything as a sort of self imposed exile, but seeing the younger races join together to stop the beings he sees as his children, he realized that he did still love them and did not want to see them in pain any longer. And in that moment where he convinced them to move beyond the rim and reunited with their friends and loved ones, he realized that he did still love them and that even living for billions of years, he was still capable of it.
There's echoes of the line "my shoes are too tight and I have forgotten how to dance" spoken by Londo in Ivanovas declaration that "my heart and I don't speak anymore"
I am now old enough to have no friends, no work colleagues and virtually no acquaintances. Whilst I still have relatives, (I have no family) those relatives are 16,777 Kilometres distant in physical distance and likely further away in spirit. Whilst I perhaps occasionally think of them, I doubt very much that they ever think of Me.
This kind of show is something special, that we will probably never see again (unless we learn to let creative storytellers in Hollywood CREATE again). On the surface, just another space opera... just a clone of Star Trek or the other shows. But once you actually start watching, you find so much more to it. The creators take on life, death, struggle, conflict, and how it all intertwines them and move them forward. Such a work of art this show was...
We don't have anything to "learn", because we don't control or affect Hollywood. Also, Hollywood is not a benchmark to create and promote content even close to this. Babylon 5 wasn't really even a Hollywood production to begin with. Hollywood is irrelevant and there's no point in having some wish it would respect talent and originality.
Babylon 5 wasn't a clone of Star Trek, Star Trek (specificall, Deep Space 9) was a clone of Babylon 5. DS 9 was heavily based on the stolen script for B5 and even had its day in court, where it was settled behind closed doors.
Such wonderful writing and stories. Imagine the year of no radio or television and just have such wonderful musings of talented individuals to entain us
At it's time B5 was literally the best written show ever. It was complete.. beginning, middle and end. No other show did this. Perfection. This deserves a reboot.
Given where we are now I truly hope that never happens...It chills me to the bone with absolute terror (On Par with An AT Field from Evangellion!) what some group like Disney would do to it.....
You call it the best show ever and declare it deserves a reboot... This utterly saddens me. Aren't you satisfied already. You call perfection then immediately call for attempt to do it again.
@STARSTyranT ..I said so in reference to things being rebooted. I know it would be impossible to capture this show. But I said it and will never take it back. Funny thing is I'm not the only 1. Michael J is apparently working on the reboot himself now. Wow.🫡
Indeed and I didn't mean to come across as obnoxious or anything so I apologise. At the end of the day we are all fans of this wonderful thing they call Babylon 5 :) @@tonyroid1
Wayne Alexander as "Sebastian" Wayne Alexander as "G'Dan" Wayne Alexander as "Lorien" Wayne Alexander as "Drazi Prisoner " Wayne Alexander as "Shiv'kala"
Babylon 5Edit Alexander appeared in numerous roles on the Babylon 5 television series. His first appearance in the series was in the season two episode "Comes the Inquisitor" as "Sebastian"[3] - the only time he played a human. Alexander subsequently played "Lorien".[4] Other appearances were in season three as a Narn named "G'Dan" in the episode "And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place",[5] as a Drazi in the season four episode "Intersections in Real Time",[citation needed] and as a Drakh in the season five episodes "Movements of Fire and Shadow" and "The Fall of Centauri Prime".[6] In the television films, he played a Drakh in Babylon 5: A Call to Arms, and in Babylon 5: The River of Souls, he appeared as a soul.[7
Was watching Doctor Who the other week, where they told the story of a woman who never dies and how empty her life became. Couldn't stop thinking of this speech while I was watching it.
That speech goes back to Greek Mythology, at least. Artemis granted a boyfriend immortality but forgot to add unaging, and it turned into a cricket after several centuries.
@@Egilhelmson Reminds me of an episode of the Justice League cartoon. The episode's villains were an immortal teenager from King Arthur's time, and his also immortal mother. The League tricked him into giving up his immortal youth, leaving him only with eternal life. It ended on an incredibly unsettling note. The mother cooing and wiping the drool from her son, a decrepit unresponsive old man.
I would imagine that given his age, he has not lost one. He has lost many - so many that he finally gave up. That's why he says that if you have lived so long, you leave behind joy and love - because in the end, both of them translate to loss and pain when it comes to an end.
When Lorien says "Only those whose lives are brief could imagine that love is eternal." he has this look of regret on his face. Could this be to a past love that he lost to death? Could that event have created this realization in him so that he could speak it to Ivanova eons later? Look at the look in his eye. There's something going on there. Lorien lost somebody. Someone very dear to him. And he's remembering it now.
Its not just one being, imagine his position. He was probably a mentor to millions or billions of souls throughout the ages. They are all gone now. Imagine the sense of loss to know the universe one century..and see how it changes the next. As we age, our regrets build and build..and thats just the span of less then a century. Imagine..just..existing for milleniums untold.
Pair that with her line: I am Death Incarnate....from another episode. She often seem to embody the incarnation of Shiva the destroyer of worlds from Hindu Mythology) and see what you come up with! #FindTHeQuote
Babylon 5 is still my favourite series of all time. So well written and acted. I wish they remastered and with new modern special effects, how awesome would that be?!
The writing on B5 was always at least the equal of Star Trek. This kind of speech would have been limited to an end of the episode musing by Kirk and Spock would have raised an eyebrow
Yes, morality notes in series like this is what I like about science fiction. I think I would veiw immortality as a curse after seeing countless numbers of loved ones die from natural/ unnatural causes over millennia. The weight of that on one's soul.
Hm...there's a lot of similarity between Lorien's people and the Elves of the Tolkien universe. "To live on, as we have, is to leave behind joy and love and companionship because we know it to be transitory -- of the moment. We know it will turn to ash." I have a feeling that many of the Elves of Tolkien's universe would be nodding their heads in at least some agreement -- even if only reluctant agreement -- with Lorien's words. After all, the Elves in Tolkien's universe refer to death as the "Gift of Men" because it allows Men (and all beings other than Elves who like Lorien were the first ones in the world) to escape the grief that comes with change and loss because so much in life is transitory. For that matter, it's interesting that a character who is immortal should be named "Lorien"...
That doesn't quite apply however, given the majority of the Valar have apparently been paired since their creation and don't seem to have tired of their spouses.
Yes and no. Men in Tolkein's work can die but their souls don't go to the paradise of the Undying Lands to the West. In fact, I'm not really sure if Tolkein stated where the souls of men went when they died. All I know is the elves lost Luthien due to her falling in love with Beran and thus choosing to follow Beran's soul instead of dwelling in paradise with the souls of all the other races.
Yes the only thing he writes is that the souls of Men are allowed to pass "beyond the circles of the world", and it was Iluvatar's Gift to Men, which of course they didn't understand and didn't value. Thus coming to covet the immortality within the world of Elves.
I would have to agree with him. We may say love is forever, but it's not. At least not in physical form. After a century or three with the same person, we would grow weary of them. "It's nothing you've done, It's just that we've said everything there is to say to each other and are beginning to repeat ourselves. Better for each of us to find someone new. Then maybe later we can get together again and have new things to say to each other."
Ender Skies I did say after a century or three. Together for 60 or 70 years? Ok You might be right. But if you were with the same person for 150 years you would likely at least start to become dissatisfied.
Your missing the point. According to Lorien, the Universe itself decided for their to be change and growth, life had to be short. Yet Lorien and his kind went on living, as if the Universe itself deemed that Lorien and his people would be the guides for those races that came after.
No, YOU'RE missing the point. PackerBronco was making a joke. Like the Chuck Norris sayings. Such as "Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups. He does world-push-downs."
Love that last line: "Only those whose lives are brief could imagine that love is eternal. You should embrace that remarkable illusion. It may be the greatest gift your race has ever received" oooooo
he basicly states that its all an illusion. Thats basicly telling right there. He KNOWS its pointless. This isnt his beliefs..or his cynical nature, no..he flat out knows from experience that all our notions of foreverness is false.
That I want to mention here I have bought most of my different SciFi series such as Star Wars, Babylon 5, Star Trek etc in The serial antiquarian shop which my hometown had berøre for cheap prices because I don't order movies or series on DVD discs etc online.
And it is somewhat very Buddhist... if one live long enough, one will learn that all things are transitory, of the moment. Only those who dies and experience the death of other can imagine wanting more because a lifetime is still too brief.
Indeed. I have discovered this in the many billions of years before I came to this uncharted backwater in the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the galaxy.
Well, no, immortality was evolved. Aging is natural. No creature came into existence immortal. It's completely unheard of in something as complex as a vertebrate as well so her comment still stands up.
True, the only lifeforms on earth that could be called immortal are one cell organisms. When they replicate, they basically split themselves in half, so half of the original cell is always preserved. For higher lifeforms it would be much more difficult, but not impossible i think. Science has come pretty far to figure out the reasons for aging and who knows, give it another 100 years and they might find ways to stop and even reverse it.@@Aldaris1234567
always loved this show..and this character was one of the best for me..so deep..thoughtfull ..a powerfull impactfull character...give me immortality like this guy i'd love it. The things this guy has seen, done, experience..wow
The thing that always irritated me is that, with all the downtime Lorien had during the prep, NOBODY ever sat down with him and asked him questions about the First Age. Sure, he couldn't tell them technological stuff, but here he is giving a first-person description of what it was like back in the day and NOBODY else thinks "Hey, before this all ends, maybe we should ask as many fucking questions as possible about the history of the First Ones NOW so we don't have to wait 1,000,000 years to access the Vorlon database!"
Theomite, that could defeat the purpose of evolving on our own. What could be the point of knowing all that if we had yet began to learn on our own. You has top learn on your own, really that is the reason why it was done that way.
Wolfen443 Good point. BUT, the First Ones did make a few concessions for mistakes. The Shadows probably gave The Drakh all sorts of knowledge along with their tech, The Vorlons left genetic memories behind in Lyta Alexander to prevent repeated mistakes, and Lorien RIGHT HERE gives Ivanova a glimpse into what life was like at the Beginning. So the First Ones DID educate the Second Ones to expedite the process, as long as it was at a slow pace or didn't give them an unfair advantage. My only point was that, nobody said "Hey, Lorien, can we get a general overview of the First Age and who all your races were?" A general summary of First One history wouldn't be *that* much of a cheat, and it certainly would've fit in with the allowances the other First Ones made while they were around. If nothing else, Second One historians would've had something to sink their teeth into.
+Theomite I often hear critics brag about things in movies that go nowhere, so insertion of a thing you asking for could be seen as that kind of thing. Movies are ruled by other laws than real world, they must entertain, and exposition is viewed as anitentertainment, but in real life you would be right.
I would love to know what the first ones looked like in their corporeal and non-corporeal forms, their race names and how the change came about , how long it took, etc.
Maybe they did exactly that but offscreen. Might be a bit boring to watch an old man talking hours upon hours about his past. Also he might have forgotten most of it. There is certainly a limit how much information a brain can hold. Humans have trouble to think 5 years back. Thinking 5 billion years back is... worse :p @@Theomite
Knowing that Lorien is played by the same actor who played Sebastian, I see similarities in certain patterns of speech. "We know it will turn to ash." "Known only as Jack." That dip of the voice to a deep bass at the end gives me chills for both lines.
love the show,watched it from start to finish on tv and reruns,but when i watched it on my computer and you view it all,it wasn't a very long lasting series as it seems.a good day of watching and you can see all the eps. really.once you see it 5-10 times in total you know it was short compared to other great shows.
At the end there, that line. I think he was holding back jealousy behind sealed lips. Almost aggressive. Because he knew the joy of that illusion, and that he could never again have what others would enjoy despite never realizing it's value. Makes the scene that much more powerful, imo
2:40 "We'll dance under the burning sky, watch it die. No sorrow. Together as the fires rage and erase tomorrow. And when it is all said and done, _we will have loved to the very end of time."_ -- "Apocalyptic Love"
How strange. If he lived for so long he should have come to understand that embracing such transitory things is what gives life meaning. If you know nothing lasts forever you appreciate the time you have more. To turn away from love, companisonship, literally anything and everything that makes life meaningful simply cause you know it wont last... then you may as well sit in a cave and wait for the stars to go dark.
Umm you do realize Lorien WAS just sitting in a cave waiting for the stars to go dark... until a small human fell into his place of rest, the first being to do so in thousands of years. Lorien also wasnt unaware of transitory things giving meaning to the short lived, the entire point of this conversation is him telling Susan that very fact... he's just been around so long now that even his own philosophies have no meaning or comfort for him, but he knows they are true and that such things give comfort to those who arent immortal, its just that he knows such truths no longer mean anything to himself. The curse of immortality.
Lorien looks *just* enough like the Lumati ambassador that when I see the thumbnail for this video very tiny in the suggestion list, I *immediately* hear "BOOM shubba lubba lubba BOOM shubba lubba lubba..."
To which I would reply, "I refuse to live a lie. Indeed joy, love and companionship are transitory, but that only makes it imperative to make the most of the time you have with one another, and to seek out new experiences, to meet new and interesting people, to evolve self as time passes. If I would have one bit of sadness about out living whole generations of sentient species over and over as Lorien, it would be in watching them repeat the same mistakes over and over. We should be progressing toward something better, and learning from our past, not trying to re-write it to somehow justify our follies.
At the end of this season the Ranger Marcus Cole sacrifices his life to save Ivanova, whom he loves. Ivanova says in tears afterwards she saw what she wanted but never gave Marcus a chance. This is what Lorien is talking about when he tells her "You should embrace that remarkable illusion" suggesting that, like the Vorlon, Lorien is also able to see the future to some extent.
He's seen quite literally everything the universe has to offer, so you might also say that he has some incredible insight into any given species behavior. This just blows away Ivanovna.
Its an interesting moment lorien doesn't have reason to casually chat with her but does. He's ancient beyond our conception of time but notices she's a little jaded and disapproves. A god making small talk. Fascinating.
Time soon to bring out the Babylon 5 DVD box set again and enjoy what was a glorious show at the time. While it is great to see some snippets here and there that act as reminders of classic moments, it is also easy to be disappointed by the very low resolution some of these were recorded in at the time. Could we have a 4K Blu-Ray restored and remastered box set, please?
I quite like this version of immortality. Ageless, but still capable of dying from illness or being killed. You can always end your own life when you've had your fill of experiences or die of illness if you're not careful, but in the meantime, you have all the time in the world to enjoy the possibilities of existence.
Boy, they didn't shy away from facts in this show, but somehow balanced it out. "Love is fleeting, but you'll die before you'll find that out." And suddenly, death as a built-in feature isn't such a terrible thing.
Anyone who doesnt realise that "excitement needs stronger triggers every time" isnt thinking clearly ... and eventually everything gets boring. There are also NOT "an unending number of possibilities" ... because just like we humans arent unique and there are - SOMEWHERE - people that look pretty much like us ... planets and ecosystems and so on all follow the same laws of physics / nature! EVERYWHERE! Unless you believe in "magic" (i.e. the ability to bend the rules of physics and biology).
I love the fact that as Vorlons have evolved to shed their physical bodies, they still sort of need encounter suits to interact with the younger races. Lorien is so badass that he has the ability to just transform at will to this humanoid representation of what his race once looked like before shedding their mortal bodies.
I think this body is just a illusion his true form was nearly planetcore size when he catched sheridan. He then read sheridans mind to create a human illusion.
Ahh... the 'Dying world' theme - it has been present for centuries in human literature and philosophy, but no one captured its essence as nicely as Lorien in this scene. It is time and loss that gives meaning to all the little things in our life. It is the pain of loss that makes small moments matter. When he talks about love not being eternal - I don't think there is anything evil in his thinking. It's just a fact. If things were eternal there would be no change. No change = no driving force to live. This is ancient philosophy (taoism) and physics (thermodynamics) combined.
They said JMS was inspired by many things, including _The Lord of the Rings._ Here it's like he's talking about elves that usually just continue until they get ill and die or get injured and die. Then like going across the sea to the Undying Lands, the First Ones are going beyond the Rim, to whatever is between galaxies.
As you get older, and you lose your parents, friends and love ones, watching this scene hits you.
Yes. Yes it does.
He is so sad.
But growing up and going through all that doesn't mean you forget how to laugh, have fun, know joy. He's forgotten how to do that which is sad.
nope its all temporary.... chill dude!
Losing friends to marrying pundai. yep
So sad that as of this time, so many of the main cast have passed away. Mira Furlan being the latest. So much acting skill that they brought to this under appreciated piece of work.
I don't think there's a scifi fan who has seen it that wouldn't put B5 in their top 3-5 shows ever made, when it first came out it was pretty much the gold standard over everything else. It's not that it's under-rated, its just old enough that less people have seen it. Much like Lorien ;p
@@chrisanderson7820 The people who dont put it in the top 3 (at worst) dont understand what makes Babylon 5 great: *THE WELL DEVELOPED CHARACTERS who are all of them part of the unique plotline!* This is a result of the writing brilliance of JMS ... in combination with the actors.
Too bad the studio "screwed up" by not committing to all five seasons, which made JMS screw up the plot a little.
Honestly as a fan of battle on 5 I am glad that it stays under the radar seeing what woki wood has done to the other great science fiction franchises. Even now they want to try to remake the series. And it terrifies me considering what they did to Star Wars star trek doctor who The Lord of the Rings. And even the Marvel movies. Everything that the modern movie making industry touches completely and totally turns to s***. It is why I am so against ever seeing a remake of some of these old classics!
They have passed beyond the rim.
Waiting for us to join them?
☮
"A toast... To absent friends, in memory still bright."
"Only those whose lives are brief can imagine that love is eternal."
Saberian Dream me
Lady Wanderer yeah, but not Skyrim. Sorry I couldn’t resist
@Lady Wanderer Elric: "Perhaps...perhaps not."
Not if one is an immortal soul simply having an Earthly experience.
kind of stupid. anyone whose lived long enough can see nothing is eternal lol.
There is nothing like this show. I've seen so many brilliant sci-fi TV shows, Deep Space 9, Battlestar, many others... but Babylon 5 just has a timeless, unaffected beauty in its philosophy and in its drama. The utter depth and brilliance of so many of the characters blends perfectly with the charm of the production design, makeup, costumes and sets. Many shows have great drama, really great drama... but this show just has something more than drama. It evokes such a beautiful sense of wonder and awe about existance, life, people... When it makes profound statements they don't seem out of place or shoved in; they fit. They are woven into the fabric of what the show is. What I like about it I guess is that, as Daniel S has said below, it really captures and evokes something almost spiritual about the universe but from an athiestic perspective. I mean you can say, "We're just chemicals and neurons." or you can say, "We're love, wonder, passion, knowledge." and both of those statements are true. The only difference is a use of imagination and a change of perspective. Babylon 5 I think tries hard to say that ideas of higher meaning and higher beauty are not limited to religion. It understands that magic is everywhere. That there is nothing that is not magic. People forget to think about the world in that way and this show reminds them. Always my favorite.
Check out the new Star Trek and be patient past the first episode :)
Stargate SG1 is bad ass also.
I agree with you 100% Babylon 5 had and has all the ingredients for the best show. I love it.
earth is flat
@@Zero11s Your Brain too
'My heart and I don't speak anymore more.' That is such a powerful line, i know I've felt like this at times in my life and to some extent I still do. Life can truly beat the joy and happiness out of you.
The betrayal by Talia Winters must have hurt her terribly. Or she was in a bad state before that happened.
I couldn't agree more. Being old, I can tell you the mystery and wonder of it all does fade away and all we're left with is a desire to peacefully live and appreciate what time is remaining. People wonder why old folks cry so easily. It's because the less time they have left, the more they value it. Not enough people appreciate the simple things. Too wrapped up in politics and things they can't control. This is a great scene. B5 was a great show.
I'm only 46. But I find myself occasionally tearing up over those who have passed on and that I missed. Good friends who passed too soon.
This is what it's like when you have outstanding writers.
And outstanding actors. (to make those outstanding words all the more powerful)
it was all , the entire series , written by one man JMS john michael strazynski.
Just the sole writer for seasons 3 and 4.
He had other writers for the other seasons
@@mr.t993 Oh no, Hollywood (and the BBC) writing turned to crap much earlier than that. Sometimes it's the best effort against impossible schedules, sometimes it's sheer laziness, and sometimes they want to shove "The Message: at you while forgetting that providing a "message" requires subtlety, and it has to be wrapped in an engaging story.
@@mr.t993 it started with the first writer's strike of 2007-2009, some shows like Jericho (about civil war in the US) were cancelled, some like BSG or Kyle XY or Heroes were ruined in later seasons. The strike was about difference in payment: an actor could receive a million for an episode while storywriters' payment was fixed up to $60k per season, or even less. And storywriter doesn't just write a plot, they have to fix the timeframe for each scene, like, who speaks at when, etc. Anyway, every writer strike ended in failure and we've got beautiful images with zero plot.
B5 speeches were always profound, never preachy. And so very, very powerful. Lorien putting immortality into perspective this way is a great example. Humans struggle to find love that will last our brief lifetimes. To a being that had lived for billions of years, how many relationships have come and gone? Although I always find JMS's writing interesting, because he is a self-avowed Atheist, but tends to write the idea that the *universe* is somehow sentient, makes decisions and chooses the direction of life.
I guess its logical to assume that the big bang didn't banged itself for no reason.
There is a factor in the visible universe, a set of universal constants, that means carbon is produced in abundance. The entropy of carbon, its 'downhill', is towards increasing complexity, so life could potentially be everywhere.
This feature of the B5 universe (immortal races being followed by races with long lives and then shorter lives) is one of many inspired by religious tales (Enoch walked with Elohim and was not, for Elohim took him. His son, Methuselah lived 969 yrs, Lamech 777yrs, Noah 950... it goes downhill after that).
Like Tolstoy's parable 'The Grain', Straczynski puts his own spin on this narative, with a number of hints towards the future of the sentient races:
a telepath who 'becomes' (we know not what),
a whole race trapped at the moment of some transformation,
the perception of Kosh when he leaves his 'encounter suit',
a future human historian who steps INTO an encounter suit
and, of course, Sheridan 'sleeping in light.'
Like Daniel S says, it's not "preachy", it's mostly just there in the background, a counterpoint to all the adventure, misery and death.
+Daniel S the reason why JMS write the way he does, even those he is an atheist he respect the character beliefs, whatever those beliefs are. Unlike a lot of writers who poke fun at peoples by using characters with the same beliefs system. Here is a quote that sum everything up, "I mean I'm an atheist myself, but I don't have to believe in Minbari to write about Minbari. I think if that person is a religious character, then you have to treat them with integrity and deal with them properly. As a result, this show is very popular with a lot of religious folks."
Allen Knott Good word; integrity.
+differous01 I agreed really lacking in the day and age. As a person who writes myself I learned to respect my characters and their beliefs from JMS.
Wayne Alexander has to be the best supporting actor, if not the best actor altogether in the whole series. His Sebastian gave me goosebumps every time. As did Lorien.
Agreed. He also played a Narn, a Drazi and a Drakh in other episodes.
instablaster
I never knew the two were one in the same. So instablasted or no, I learned of it. So thanks OP.
Yes, but did he get what he truly wanted? I’ll take Vir.
that whole show was filled with sleeper talent nobody else appreciated. And some mega talent anyone would be damned lucky to land for their show.
This series was something special.
B5 will stay in my heart forever! ❤
Its amazing to think he played Jack the ripper in B5 as well such a versatile actor!
I was named Lorien, after this guy (luckily, I didn’t get his looks) but but is my first time seeing this clip, or seeing anything of him from the show.
Mind-blown from the wisdom shared
He was clearly telling her to go for it with Marcus.
But apparently, not clearly enough.
She never even _boffed_ him....
Unrequited love is a semi-staple in B5. Marcus and Ivanova, Delenn and Lennier, Lyta and Zack...
Wasn't she a lesbian?
@@cameraman655 No, she was Bi.
"My heart and I don't talk." "Yes I have noticed this." AWESOME!
Thank you for uploading this piece of utter brilliance. I miss the series so much.
ElegantPaws01 - as do I. I loved Star Trek (before it went mega commercial with the latest series of films). But - even at it's best - Star Trek could not move me like Babylon 5 could at it's respective best. Star Trek was like a fabulous comic book - come to life. Whereas B5 was somewhat like Shakespeare gone sci-fi. Both are great - but very different.
Me too
"Jedi masters don't go crazy, they become... eccentric." - Luke Skywalker ;-)
My grandmother said much the same thing as she came loath visiting her local town centre to find out someone else she knew has died, until there wasn't anyone else left from her childhood.
This was very profound. My parents have gone and just about all of their generation.
Now I'm the older generation and along with various health issues I can feel it's me and my generation who are going to be disappearing into the night forever at an increasing number.
Life is indeed too short.
What would you like to spend it on if you get more time?
"My heart and I we don't speak anymore" - Yes... i have noticed that. - Man these two lines carried so much meaning and power on their own.
The writing for this show was absolutely brilliant.
Wayne Alexander was so good in B5. It's crazy to think he's around 80 now. He played so many roles on B5 (Sebastian, Lorien, G'dan (Narn), a Drazi and a Drakh) and all so different.
Incredible writing never ages. JMS is a true artist.
I could well imagine in a few hundred years this script being used as an example of how adept writers were in the 20th/21st century... Just outstanding.
This is one of the best monologues of the series and that's saying something and indeed Wayne Alexander kills it, wonderfull performance, exactly the right tone.
The Marvel universe has beings called the Elders of the Universe. Each of them is the last survivor of one of the first races to achieve sentience in the universe. All discovered the potential to live forever if they could maintain the will to continue living (and thus all of them developed some goal that could be striven toward but never fully achieved -- seeing everything in the universe in person, preserving every unique life form, object, and culture from extinction, seeding every dead world with life, mastering every game of skill in the universe, comprehending every mystery of the universe, and so on). Almost all of them are at least 10 or so billion years old (the youngest known, the Obliterator, is 5.5 billion years old -- his species had survived for billions of years until he decided his eternal goal was to murder every sentient being in existence, and he started by killing his own species).
The weird thing is that, even though they're not from the same species, or even galaxy sometimes, they all call each other brother/sister/sibling. I didn't really think about *why* they have that sense of being siblings until I saw this scene in Babylon 5. It makes sense that they treat each other as siblings, because they're the only other beings on their level of existence that they can have real friendships with -- everyone else is there and gone in the blink of an eye in comparison to their lifespans, and the other beings with similar lifespans were never mortal (Eternity, Death, etc.) except for Galactus (part of whom was the last survivor of the previous universe, Galan of Ta'a) -- and Galactus the Devourer of Worlds is kind of dangerous to have as a friend, even if he were inclined to want a friend.
I think, in his own way, Lorien is a rather tragic figure himself
Like he says, he's lived too long, seen too much. Watched the passing of friends, family, loved ones. seen his race diminish to the point that, I think, there are too few of them now to even be CALLED a race. Seen wars and death and destruction, watched his 'Children' pass, either dieing, or moving beyond him.
I think what he says is, perhaps, the only way he prevents himself from falling into despair and madness like, I think, some of his fellows must have done.
There has to be a reason he spent his time in a pit cave in shadow central. What could ever possibly be there, come there but an opportunity to do one last, relevant deed. One last thing to edge the world into a direction for the better. One last gift he bestows upon the galaxy before leaving.
@@saberiandream316
Considering the Hey look life phase of the universe is only a blink compared to the whole timeline you can expect.. whee... better get a flashlight that never runs out. you are gonna need it.
@@saberiandream316
still. imagine being able to watch that. the last light ceasing.... perpetual darkness... imnagine living there.
@@saberiandream316
ua-cam.com/video/uD4izuDMUQA/v-deo.html here. awesome.
@@saberiandream316 Well, not if it happens at a snails pace! Seriously, suns and other cosmic bodies exist for billions of years and even for immortals that is a long long time!
Immortality is not without sacrifice. "Only those whose lives are brief can imagine that love is eternal."
Gimme - I'd make that trade :)
Yolo right, do whatever you want without repercussions cause thats it. A candle that barely has time to truly light any way. A candle that wastes its entire existence on that smallness of its being until it is snuffed out never to be relit.
Truly that belief is a far greater tragedy then an eternal love.
@@dreamingflurry2729 Would you now? By extension anything you take pleasure or happiness in now would also lose its appeal over time.Say you might enjoy bowling now. How many games would it take until you lost interest and never wanted to play again? Eventually would be more of a curse than a blessing methinks, especially for us humans who are so driven to excel at everything we do as fast as possible.
@@loka7783 Then you move on to other things! Hell, in the end you will probably become a truly well rounded person because in time you will probably also try things you dislike now :)
Personally, I think this quote is wrong. Lorien clearly is a compassionated being, but has seen and experienced so much that he no longers wants the possibility of pain that love brings. As a result, he hid from everything as a sort of self imposed exile, but seeing the younger races join together to stop the beings he sees as his children, he realized that he did still love them and did not want to see them in pain any longer. And in that moment where he convinced them to move beyond the rim and reunited with their friends and loved ones, he realized that he did still love them and that even living for billions of years, he was still capable of it.
I have always liked that door chime.
There's echoes of the line "my shoes are too tight and I have forgotten how to dance" spoken by Londo in Ivanovas declaration that "my heart and I don't speak anymore"
To whatever lies in the darkness between galaxies... that makes me truly wonder what is out there...
I am now old enough to have no friends, no work colleagues and virtually no acquaintances.
Whilst I still have relatives, (I have no family) those relatives are 16,777 Kilometres distant in physical distance and likely further away in spirit.
Whilst I perhaps occasionally think of them, I doubt very much that they ever think of Me.
This kind of show is something special, that we will probably never see again (unless we learn to let creative storytellers in Hollywood CREATE again). On the surface, just another space opera... just a clone of Star Trek or the other shows. But once you actually start watching, you find so much more to it. The creators take on life, death, struggle, conflict, and how it all intertwines them and move them forward. Such a work of art this show was...
We don't have anything to "learn", because we don't control or affect Hollywood. Also, Hollywood is not a benchmark to create and promote content even close to this. Babylon 5 wasn't really even a Hollywood production to begin with.
Hollywood is irrelevant and there's no point in having some wish it would respect talent and originality.
Babylon 5 wasn't a clone of Star Trek, Star Trek (specificall, Deep Space 9) was a clone of Babylon 5. DS 9 was heavily based on the stolen script for B5 and even had its day in court, where it was settled behind closed doors.
@@Aivottaja Do you know what the settlement was, because I don’t, and JMS isn’t talking about it, so he is probably getting paid decently.
@@Egilhelmson No idea. Maybe he didn't even get a monetary settlement.
@@Aivottaja Casual racism from a right-wing chode.
Such wonderful writing and stories. Imagine the year of no radio or television and just have such wonderful musings of talented individuals to entain us
that love is eternal is NO illusion, and especially such a always - long lived existence like Lorien must know that clear
At it's time B5 was literally the best written show ever. It was complete.. beginning, middle and end. No other show did this. Perfection. This deserves a reboot.
Given where we are now I truly hope that never happens...It chills me to the bone with absolute terror (On Par with An AT Field from Evangellion!) what some group like Disney would do to it.....
You call it the best show ever and declare it deserves a reboot... This utterly saddens me. Aren't you satisfied already. You call perfection then immediately call for attempt to do it again.
@STARSTyranT ..I said so in reference to things being rebooted. I know it would be impossible to capture this show. But I said it and will never take it back. Funny thing is I'm not the only 1. Michael J is apparently working on the reboot himself now. Wow.🫡
Indeed and I didn't mean to come across as obnoxious or anything so I apologise. At the end of the day we are all fans of this wonderful thing they call Babylon 5 :) @@tonyroid1
@@STARSTyranT ..all good!🫡
God, the writing and acting on that show were out of this world!!!
2023 B5 is finally getting a Blu-ray release
Wayne Alexander as "Sebastian"
Wayne Alexander as "G'Dan"
Wayne Alexander as "Lorien"
Wayne Alexander as "Drazi Prisoner "
Wayne Alexander as "Shiv'kala"
Babylon 5Edit
Alexander appeared in numerous roles on the Babylon 5 television series. His first appearance in the series was in the season two episode "Comes the Inquisitor" as "Sebastian"[3] - the only time he played a human. Alexander subsequently played "Lorien".[4] Other appearances were in season three as a Narn named "G'Dan" in the episode "And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place",[5] as a Drazi in the season four episode "Intersections in Real Time",[citation needed] and as a Drakh in the season five episodes "Movements of Fire and Shadow" and "The Fall of Centauri Prime".[6] In the television films, he played a Drakh in Babylon 5: A Call to Arms, and in Babylon 5: The River of Souls, he appeared as a soul.[7
One of the best scenes with some of the best dialog in a really good sci-fi tv series. Lorien was such a great addition to the B5 characters.
Wise words. It's moments like these that made me appreciate Babylon 5 for what it was, and for what it could be.
Was watching Doctor Who the other week, where they told the story of a woman who never dies and how empty her life became.
Couldn't stop thinking of this speech while I was watching it.
Ginea25 the Vikings girl. Very sad. The Doc with out his friends
That speech goes back to Greek Mythology, at least. Artemis granted a boyfriend immortality but forgot to add unaging, and it turned into a cricket after several centuries.
@@Egilhelmson Reminds me of an episode of the Justice League cartoon. The episode's villains were an immortal teenager from King Arthur's time, and his also immortal mother. The League tricked him into giving up his immortal youth, leaving him only with eternal life. It ended on an incredibly unsettling note. The mother cooing and wiping the drool from her son, a decrepit unresponsive old man.
If you are mortal loving being eternal is not an illusion it is only an illusion for the immortal.
I would imagine that given his age, he has not lost one. He has lost many - so many that he finally gave up. That's why he says that if you have lived so long, you leave behind joy and love - because in the end, both of them translate to loss and pain when it comes to an end.
You know why Sheldon is to me the Villian in TBBT he said Babylon 5 isn't Sci-Fi, who ever wrote that line didn't know or never watched the show.
It’s not an illusion, it’s the truth😊
When Lorien says "Only those whose lives are brief could imagine that love is eternal." he has this look of regret on his face. Could this be to a past love that he lost to death? Could that event have created this realization in him so that he could speak it to Ivanova eons later? Look at the look in his eye. There's something going on there. Lorien lost somebody. Someone very dear to him. And he's remembering it now.
Its not just one being, imagine his position. He was probably a mentor to millions or billions of souls throughout the ages. They are all gone now. Imagine the sense of loss to know the universe one century..and see how it changes the next. As we age, our regrets build and build..and thats just the span of less then a century. Imagine..just..existing for milleniums untold.
when I saw the thumbnail I thought it was Zathras, but I realised he was not the one...
Such a great sci-fi show. It had so many moments as meaningful as this excerpt. Tic-toc.
The fact that Ivaniva doesn’t speak with her heart anymore says a lot about her character throughout the series.
Pair that with her line: I am Death Incarnate....from another episode. She often seem to embody the incarnation of Shiva the destroyer of worlds from Hindu Mythology) and see what you come up with! #FindTHeQuote
Man I miss this show. R.I.P. Mira.
I occasionally hear about hints of a reboot, wonder if it'll ever happen
@@paulmallon9033 A reboot that remains true to the original 👍🏻
Babylon 5 is still my favourite series of all time. So well written and acted.
I wish they remastered and with new modern special effects, how awesome would that be?!
It is available on Amazon in HD to purchase.... (In the USA.)
@@ihavegymnastics No with Remastered special effects (CGI) it isn't.
The writing on B5 was always at least the equal of Star Trek. This kind of speech would have been limited to an end of the episode musing by Kirk and Spock would have raised an eyebrow
Yes, morality notes in series like this is what I like about science fiction.
I think I would veiw immortality as a curse after seeing countless numbers of loved ones die from natural/ unnatural causes over millennia. The weight of that on one's soul.
Now you understand.
"I am the last. And I was the first." Like the alpha and the omega.
Hm...there's a lot of similarity between Lorien's people and the Elves of the Tolkien universe. "To live on, as we have, is to leave behind joy and love and companionship because we know it to be transitory -- of the moment. We know it will turn to ash." I have a feeling that many of the Elves of Tolkien's universe would be nodding their heads in at least some agreement -- even if only reluctant agreement -- with Lorien's words. After all, the Elves in Tolkien's universe refer to death as the "Gift of Men" because it allows Men (and all beings other than Elves who like Lorien were the first ones in the world) to escape the grief that comes with change and loss because so much in life is transitory. For that matter, it's interesting that a character who is immortal should be named "Lorien"...
Lorien-Babylon 5/Lóthloríen>Loríen-LOTR
Also, Zha'Ha'Dhum = Khazadum (Moria)
That doesn't quite apply however, given the majority of the Valar have apparently been paired since their creation and don't seem to have tired of their spouses.
Yes and no. Men in Tolkein's work can die but their souls don't go to the paradise of the Undying Lands to the West. In fact, I'm not really sure if Tolkein stated where the souls of men went when they died. All I know is the elves lost Luthien due to her falling in love with Beran and thus choosing to follow Beran's soul instead of dwelling in paradise with the souls of all the other races.
Yes the only thing he writes is that the souls of Men are allowed to pass "beyond the circles of the world", and it was Iluvatar's Gift to Men, which of course they didn't understand and didn't value. Thus coming to covet the immortality within the world of Elves.
I would have to agree with him. We may say love is forever, but it's not. At least not in physical form. After a century or three with the same person, we would grow weary of them. "It's nothing you've done, It's just that we've said everything there is to say to each other and are beginning to repeat ourselves. Better for each of us to find someone new. Then maybe later we can get together again and have new things to say to each other."
Ender Skies Human nature. The saying "Familiarity breeds contempt" does have its basis in fact.
Ender Skies I did say after a century or three. Together for 60 or 70 years? Ok You might be right. But if you were with the same person for 150 years you would likely at least start to become dissatisfied.
Ender Skies In reality we don't know either way. Since we don't live long enough to find out there's no way to know for sure, either way.
+Ender Skies.....ah, the words of the very young and naive....nevertheless idealism does have it's merits.
Well, Lorien didn't get all wrinkled and baggy etc, either That could make a difference.
The only reason that the First Ones were immortal is that Ivanova wasn't around to take 'em out.
Your missing the point. According to Lorien, the Universe itself decided for their to be change and growth, life had to be short. Yet Lorien and his kind went on living, as if the Universe itself deemed that Lorien and his people would be the guides for those races that came after.
No, YOU'RE missing the point. PackerBronco was making a joke. Like the Chuck Norris sayings. Such as "Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups. He does world-push-downs."
Especially with VD
😆😆😆😆😆
@@skiptoloo9506 lol
Love that last line: "Only those whose lives are brief could imagine that love is eternal. You should embrace that remarkable illusion. It may be the greatest gift your race has ever received" oooooo
he basicly states that its all an illusion. Thats basicly telling right there. He KNOWS its pointless. This isnt his beliefs..or his cynical nature, no..he flat out knows from experience that all our notions of foreverness is false.
That I want to mention here I have bought most of my different SciFi series such as Star Wars, Babylon 5, Star Trek etc in The serial antiquarian shop which my hometown had berøre for cheap prices because I don't order movies or series on DVD discs etc online.
So true, if only us mortals would embrace our gift without prejudices
awesome series
Really I Miss the Times of this Shows my friends. Thanks.
This is one of my favorite if not my absolute favorite scene from Babylon 5.
I looked for this clip in english for ages, ty.
You should embrace that remarkable illusion. It may be the greatest gift your race has ever received ❤
Not aging is possible in a few organisms on earth. Aging is evolved. I think this is clever of the writer to explore these issues in this way.
Funny enough, we actually weren't aware that biological immortality was possible when this was aired.
And it is somewhat very Buddhist... if one live long enough, one will learn that all things are transitory, of the moment. Only those who dies and experience the death of other can imagine wanting more because a lifetime is still too brief.
Indeed. I have discovered this in the many billions of years before I came to this uncharted backwater in the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the galaxy.
Well, no, immortality was evolved. Aging is natural. No creature came into existence immortal. It's completely unheard of in something as complex as a vertebrate as well so her comment still stands up.
True, the only lifeforms on earth that could be called immortal are one cell organisms. When they replicate, they basically split themselves in half, so half of the original cell is always preserved. For higher lifeforms it would be much more difficult, but not impossible i think. Science has come pretty far to figure out the reasons for aging and who knows, give it another 100 years and they might find ways to stop and even reverse it.@@Aldaris1234567
always loved this show..and this character was one of the best for me..so deep..thoughtfull ..a powerfull impactfull character...give me immortality like this guy i'd love it. The things this guy has seen, done, experience..wow
The thing that always irritated me is that, with all the downtime Lorien had during the prep, NOBODY ever sat down with him and asked him questions about the First Age. Sure, he couldn't tell them technological stuff, but here he is giving a first-person description of what it was like back in the day and NOBODY else thinks "Hey, before this all ends, maybe we should ask as many fucking questions as possible about the history of the First Ones NOW so we don't have to wait 1,000,000 years to access the Vorlon database!"
Theomite, that could defeat the purpose of evolving on our own. What could be the point of knowing all that if we had yet began to learn on our own. You has top learn on your own, really that is the reason why it was done that way.
Wolfen443
Good point. BUT, the First Ones did make a few concessions for mistakes. The Shadows probably gave The Drakh all sorts of knowledge along with their tech, The Vorlons left genetic memories behind in Lyta Alexander to prevent repeated mistakes, and Lorien RIGHT HERE gives Ivanova a glimpse into what life was like at the Beginning. So the First Ones DID educate the Second Ones to expedite the process, as long as it was at a slow pace or didn't give them an unfair advantage.
My only point was that, nobody said "Hey, Lorien, can we get a general overview of the First Age and who all your races were?" A general summary of First One history wouldn't be *that* much of a cheat, and it certainly would've fit in with the allowances the other First Ones made while they were around. If nothing else, Second One historians would've had something to sink their teeth into.
+Theomite I often hear critics brag about things in movies that go nowhere, so insertion of a thing you asking for could be seen as that kind of thing. Movies are ruled by other laws than real world, they must entertain, and exposition is viewed as anitentertainment, but in real life you would be right.
I would love to know what the first ones looked like in their corporeal and non-corporeal forms, their race names and how the change came about , how long it took, etc.
Maybe they did exactly that but offscreen. Might be a bit boring to watch an old man talking hours upon hours about his past. Also he might have forgotten most of it. There is certainly a limit how much information a brain can hold. Humans have trouble to think 5 years back. Thinking 5 billion years back is... worse :p @@Theomite
My Heart and I don't speak anymore. 😭
Babylon 5 - best TV show EVER.
True no matter what you do. Some don't realize it before it's too late.
Or the things taken for granted
As Lorien said to John Sheridan you stand between tick and tack 😁
The older I get the more I fear this is true. Thank goodness I'm not immortal.
Of all the aliens I think he was one of the coolest. If only there had been more backstory or more episodes with his wisdom.
Knowing that Lorien is played by the same actor who played Sebastian, I see similarities in certain patterns of speech.
"We know it will turn to ash."
"Known only as Jack."
That dip of the voice to a deep bass at the end gives me chills for both lines.
Jeffrey Coombs, known for his roles in Star Trek, is guilty of it, too. Marc Alaimo as well. But we love them for it.
I love the part about Love. So deep :)
love the show,watched it from start to finish on tv and reruns,but when i watched it on my computer and you view it all,it wasn't a very long lasting series as it seems.a good day of watching and you can see all the eps. really.once you see it 5-10 times in total you know it was short compared to other great shows.
Even though I miss this show it would be an absolute tragedy if they ever do a remake of it. Without the original cast it just would not be the same!
Regrettably they will and it will be WOKE HELL.
At the end there, that line. I think he was holding back jealousy behind sealed lips. Almost aggressive. Because he knew the joy of that illusion, and that he could never again have what others would enjoy despite never realizing it's value. Makes the scene that much more powerful, imo
Easily one of the best scenes in the series.......
he reminds me of q alot. immortal always alone and now dying
Seen too much, but never even left his parent galaxy.
2:40 "We'll dance under the burning sky, watch it die. No sorrow. Together as the fires rage and erase tomorrow. And when it is all said and done, _we will have loved to the very end of time."_
-- "Apocalyptic Love"
Funny, I remember this scene so well after all these years. I just had to click on it
"My heart and I don't speak anymore"
first i was like -_-
then i lol'd
How strange. If he lived for so long he should have come to understand that embracing such transitory things is what gives life meaning. If you know nothing lasts forever you appreciate the time you have more. To turn away from love, companisonship, literally anything and everything that makes life meaningful simply cause you know it wont last... then you may as well sit in a cave and wait for the stars to go dark.
Umm you do realize Lorien WAS just sitting in a cave waiting for the stars to go dark... until a small human fell into his place of rest, the first being to do so in thousands of years. Lorien also wasnt unaware of transitory things giving meaning to the short lived, the entire point of this conversation is him telling Susan that very fact... he's just been around so long now that even his own philosophies have no meaning or comfort for him, but he knows they are true and that such things give comfort to those who arent immortal, its just that he knows such truths no longer mean anything to himself.
The curse of immortality.
Lorien looks *just* enough like the Lumati ambassador that when I see the thumbnail for this video very tiny in the suggestion list, I *immediately* hear "BOOM shubba lubba lubba BOOM shubba lubba lubba..."
True wisdom exists in the acknowledgement of the brevity
of life. Hold dearly what you have while you can.
It’s like a rich man telling a poor man that money isn’t everything… “your poverty is a gift”
To which I would reply, "I refuse to live a lie. Indeed joy, love and companionship are transitory, but that only makes it imperative to make the most of the time you have with one another, and to seek out new experiences, to meet new and interesting people, to evolve self as time passes.
If I would have one bit of sadness about out living whole generations of sentient species over and over as Lorien, it would be in watching them repeat the same mistakes over and over. We should be progressing toward something better, and learning from our past, not trying to re-write it to somehow justify our follies.
At the end of this season the Ranger Marcus Cole sacrifices his life to save Ivanova, whom he loves. Ivanova says in tears afterwards she saw what she wanted but never gave Marcus a chance. This is what Lorien is talking about when he tells her "You should embrace that remarkable illusion" suggesting that, like the Vorlon, Lorien is also able to see the future to some extent.
He's seen quite literally everything the universe has to offer, so you might also say that he has some incredible insight into any given species behavior. This just blows away Ivanovna.
Amen. The Greatest Gift our race has been given.
Life has no context without death as its opposite.
Its an interesting moment lorien doesn't have reason to casually chat with her but does. He's ancient beyond our conception of time but notices she's a little jaded and disapproves.
A god making small talk. Fascinating.
Time soon to bring out the Babylon 5 DVD box set again and enjoy what was a glorious show at the time. While it is great to see some snippets here and there that act as reminders of classic moments, it is also easy to be disappointed by the very low resolution some of these were recorded in at the time. Could we have a 4K Blu-Ray restored and remastered box set, please?
I quite like this version of immortality. Ageless, but still capable of dying from illness or being killed. You can always end your own life when you've had your fill of experiences or die of illness if you're not careful, but in the meantime, you have all the time in the world to enjoy the possibilities of existence.
I have heard that a human like that might last 600 years, before accident, war or disease got him/her. On average.
It is interesting to ponder that he is still alive after all this time and all the experiences he's had....
Sounds like biological immortality.
Boy, they didn't shy away from facts in this show, but somehow balanced it out. "Love is fleeting, but you'll die before you'll find that out." And suddenly, death as a built-in feature isn't such a terrible thing.
Anyone who doesnt realise that "excitement needs stronger triggers every time" isnt thinking clearly ... and eventually everything gets boring. There are also NOT "an unending number of possibilities" ... because just like we humans arent unique and there are - SOMEWHERE - people that look pretty much like us ... planets and ecosystems and so on all follow the same laws of physics / nature! EVERYWHERE!
Unless you believe in "magic" (i.e. the ability to bend the rules of physics and biology).
I love the fact that as Vorlons have evolved to shed their physical bodies, they still sort of need encounter suits to interact with the younger races. Lorien is so badass that he has the ability to just transform at will to this humanoid representation of what his race once looked like before shedding their mortal bodies.
I think this body is just a illusion his true form was nearly planetcore size when he catched sheridan. He then read sheridans mind to create a human illusion.
The encounter suit is A DISGUISE ...
Ahh... the 'Dying world' theme - it has been present for centuries in human literature and philosophy, but no one captured its essence as nicely as Lorien in this scene. It is time and loss that gives meaning to all the little things in our life. It is the pain of loss that makes small moments matter. When he talks about love not being eternal - I don't think there is anything evil in his thinking. It's just a fact. If things were eternal there would be no change. No change = no driving force to live. This is ancient philosophy (taoism) and physics (thermodynamics) combined.
They said JMS was inspired by many things, including _The Lord of the Rings._ Here it's like he's talking about elves that usually just continue until they get ill and die or get injured and die. Then like going across the sea to the Undying Lands, the First Ones are going beyond the Rim, to whatever is between galaxies.
There is simply nothing else with the depth and wisdom of B5. Often brings a lump to my throat these days.