I have found that so many of the main Calvinist teachers do such a good job exegeted so many texts of Scripture, but when they come to a texts like John 6 that at first glance seem to support Calvinism, they go off into proof-texting instead of doing careful exegesis. I did the same thing with John 6 for so many years focusing in on verses 37 and 44 as Proofs, but not seeing them in context (especially of verse 45 about “being taught of God” and “learning from the Father.” Now, John 6 makes so much more sense with all of the other texts in John that you have pointed out (5:37-38; 8:19, 39-47). Thank you brother!
Interesting breakdown. I'll have to look into this for myself. I really mulled over John 6 a month ago and noticed something consistent with what you said. Jesus talks a lot about coming to him and trusting before he goes into the "drink my blood and eat my flesh" teaching that drives so many disciples away. Then he asks his disciples if they are going to leave as well. But they say "where would we go?" Said another way, "we have come to you" and we have trusted (put our faith in you).
I am thankful for your calm and kind presentation. Jumping ahead in John to chapter 20, John's presentation of Jesus (especially the signs of his power/identity) that he has tied to Old Testament revelation allows his reader to "jump the line" by "believing that Jesus is the Son of God" regardless of whether they had been steeped in the law and prophets or not. By believing in Jesus, the fulfillment of the law, the reader could have "life in his name". I think that shows that just as Jesus's actual audience in John 6 (Jews who had the law and prophets) would be drawn by the Father's full revelation (his Son) as having the same quality of truth and grace as the scriptures (a la John 1:18), new readers encountering the truth and grace in Jesus's life would be drawn by the Father's disclosure of love (John 3:16-17).
Jordon, such an overlooked vital sign in any worthwhile battle or skirmish is character and fruit, during and after the battle. In nearly 60 years of living within a culture of Calvinism, I’ve only ever met 1 person, who subscribes to Calvinism and has actually displayed any character traits of biblical “ fruit “ or likeness or image bearing of Christ. You and many like minded followers more often than not, represent a humble posture that we would expect from a disciple of Jesus..thank you and your family for your commitment to glorifying the truths of God and His word. ✌️
I am in the same / similar situation. I have been in reformed churches my whole life. I would guess you have been in a hyper Calvinist church that tends to shut out others as they defend their position. This is a problem in a lot of churches. I was just sent a comment by someone who grew up Pentecostal and said exactly the same thing about what he experienced. Our sinful nature and our personal experiences do not change truth. All the arguments we hear against Calvinism are rooted in not wanting it to be true, because of the consequences. Jordan says this ALL the time. Jordans exegesis of John 6 has truth contained in it. If people correctly see how the promises that the old testament spoke of they could come to the conclusion Jesus could be the Messiah. That truth still must be revealed to them however since Jesus said clearly... John 6;65 "This why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father. " Same thing today, you can have brilliant scholars know the Bible inside and out but fail to place their faith in the simple promise of the gospel.
Very well said my friend. As a Messianic Jew for over 40 years what you shared has always been my understanding and approach when sharing the good news with the Jewish people, it is just Biblical common sense, Shalom
Great job explaining Jordan. This is another prime example of Calvinist reading things into the text. But this also is a good warning for all of us, take the time to read the text entirely and understand the context. I believe this leads to rejecting Calvinism and many other issues. Thanks for the video.
Good on you Jordan. Jesus was speaking to the Jews. He was not talking about the Gentiles who would later be grafted in. Context is very important, and you have done a good job rightly dividing the Word.
It's easy to interpret it that way if you already have a dispensationalist presupposition. I use to, and now I agree with Jeff. Both sides claim to have CONTEXT
@@aletheia8054 Some might. In their back-and-forth, James White has repeatedly disagreed with Leighton Flowers- Flowers takes the stance that Jordan takes and James disagrees. I’ve also seen Calvinists on FB, and here on YT, disagree with Flowers (and the Provisionist Perspective, who has said the same thing as Flowers and Jordan). Maybe James White and those who follow him, plus the random social media Calvinist s I’ve seen, are in a very small minority. I agree that could be true.
The fact that he's speaking to a select group of people doesn't automatically narrow the meaning of what he's saying, though. For example, he says throughout John 6, in some form or another, that whoever believes in him will have eternal life. You and everybody else who reads this would agree that those types of statements are true for anybody, anywhere who believes in him, and that's because even though he's speaking to a specific group, the concepts he's illustrating are generally applicable. It would be weird if he suddenly only meant "nobody among you" by "nobody" in verse 44 when he'd been using those terms ("anybody", "everybody", "nobody", etc.) generally all across the chapter. He would've specified if he meant to narrow the scope of the statement, and since he didn't, the statement should be taken generally.
You did a great job of using context to help understand the meaning of the passage - I recently looked at this and can see the same concepts are seen all through John 4-8. Concise and effective explanation. Thanks for making this!
“Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me-“ Important to cross reference this one too to John 10. Who is it that has heard from the Father? Who is it that hears the Father? John 10:3-4 for starters will answer that question. 😊 I only listened to the first ten minutes, so I’m not sure if you touched base with that. But answering the question of who it is that is hearing and learning from the Father, in context, is also very important.
I'm so glad the misunderstandings of Calvin are being corrected by so many great believers and teachers. God is using you to protect people from a strong dark dogma, full of poor exegesis. Keep making content like this!
John 6 is simple. Jesus confirms he is here to do his father’s will. Ie “all those the father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down to not do my will, but the fathers will, and this is the will of him who sent me that I shall not lose any one he has sent me, but raise them up on the last day. “ Then he goes on to define what the fathers will is. VS 40. “For it is my father’s will, that everyone who looks to the son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day”. Ie those who believe in the Son are the ones who his father gives him, and he raises up on the last day. So later in the chapter where he says “and no one comes to me unless the father draws them” is a reference back to the previous definition of who are the people that the father gives him? Those who believe in Him, Jesus. He is simply re-stating what he has already said. So who can come? Only those who the father sends him, who’s that? Only those who believe in the son. Why can’t they come? Because they didn’t believe, Jesus even says later. “And yet there are some of you who still do not believe”.(So they can’t come). This is how it reads without a Calvinistic lense.
Yes yet you neglect chapter 1 and 11 of John's gospel and Ephessians 1 and 2. Man is created by God as his imager with volition sin enslaved it the Bible calls that being blind, deaf mute,invalid and dead those are the conditions equated with being out of God's favour and under his wrath and each are addressed by God in Christ. The Calvinism I follow does not deny the sovereignty of God over who is brought into his family yet holds people responsible for their choices.
@@ThembaMaselane and you missed Ephesians 1 :13 “when you heard the message of truth the gospel of salvation when YOU believed, you were marked with him a seal the promised Holy Spirit.”
I always appreciate my non Calvinist brothers in the faith. Some brothers like Jordan engage in a respectful responde. I thank God for those in the kingdom who engage in such Biblical responses with lots of manners and show humility and respect. Can we agree that the core of the debate or the difference between The non Calvinist and Calvinist is what enable us to come to Christ ? or the order between what comes first - Regeneration or Faith ? May The Lord bless you and your ministry brother.
Jordan Is getting closer to believing the Bible. It would be awesome If he would glorify the sovereign, almighty God, the potter of all creation as we read in Romans, Isaiah and Jeremiah. What a blessing to believe the true and inspiring word of God, the sovereign and almighty God is capable of setting apart his peaple in the womb as we see in the Bible, we could read verses like Jeremiah 1:5 or Galatians 1:15 Galatians 1:15 [15]But when he [c]who had set me apart [d]before I was born,(4) and who [e]called me by his grace, Footnotes (4) Greek set me apart from my mother's womb Cross-references [c]: Acts 13:2; Rom 1:1 [d]: Isa 49:1, 5; Jer 1:5; Lk 1:15 [e]: Gal 1:6 (ESV)
It is pretty simple if you are not trapped on the far ends of the debate. “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone (this is not limited by the text) who beholds the Son and believes (who defines and judges brief? God! A mere claim of faith does not save God does) in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” ”This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me (those He judges as believing/having faith) I lose nothing (those that are FOREKNOWN, are PREDESTINED to finish the race) but raise it up on the last day. Some are kept at a distance by parables, but then come to faith after the resurrection, so they were not left in damnation because they were not elected.
"The people that God gave to Jesus are the people that were already God's people. They were the people that were worshipping God, and therefore they do not represent a case of God taking the devil's people who are unbelievers and transforming them into believers." - Steve Gregg debating James White
I’m not too familiar with all the points of Calvinism but I have listened to people like Jeff Durbin and James White, who I think do a lot of good work btw, but there is a certain level of pride to believing that God chose you specifically for salvation, not that God in his love chose mercy to everyone who did not deserve it, but that you for some reason were one of the few deserving of undeserved mercy from God. I think for this reason Calvinist should humble themselves a bit.
Most people I have spoken to that believe in the absolute sovereignty of God in all things don't have any pride in the fact that God "chose" them, but are humbled as can be knowing that they are fully deserving of his wrath but by God's free Grace are granted repentance. Remember in John 15:16 Jesus spoke to his disciples and stated "You did not choose me, but I chose you." I certainly don't think the disciples were prideful but much like "Calvinist's" I think they were eternally humbled that a perfect God would choose the lowest the raise up the highest.
@@graham5990 So which people don’t believe in the absolute sovereignty of God , Do tell, who are these people ? And as for pride, that title would clearly be held by your average Calvinist
@@markshaneh Well if you believe in the COMPLETE sovereignty of God you would need to hold to a calvinist view point. If you believe you are the one choosing God then God is no longer Sovereign over all things and some things are just out of his control. I don't like to say calvinist as it start things off on the wrong foot but I tend to lean more towards the complete sovereignty of God myself as it is pointed out so many times throughout scripture. I am not prideful but extremely humbled and in no way do I look down on anyone or think God "chose" me because of something special I have ever done in my life as I look at myself as Paul (chief of all sinners) you have no idea how hard prayer is sometimes recalling things I have done and said in my life but once again as Paul wrote (I try to forget the things that are behind and reach forward to the things ahead) What I have noticed in these debates between brothers is the ones on the side of the free will of man side of things get very nasty (as evidenced by your very snide and very condescending "and as for pride, that would clearly be held by your average Calvinist" comment). You see I look at the Calvinist/Arminian debate as nothing more than a difference in theology. I love Voddie Baucham dearly and love listening to him, but he is on the side of a-mil whereas my eschatological beliefs tend to lean more towards the pre-mil side of things but just because we differ on theology doesn't mean I have to dislike him or speak ill of him. MacArthur and Sproul were dear friends but has several disagreements on theological matters, but never did they speak bad about one another. Brother as long as you have Christ and the Gospel correct anything after that is just theological interpretation and as far as I see things we are brothers in Christ and shouldn't spend so much time speaking ill of another brother but we should be lifting each-other up and edifying one another. If you care to have a discussion on why I believe what I believe I'm more than happy to have that conversation, but not if you're just going to belittle me for what I believe to be true in scripture.
@@graham5990 so if a person believes in the complete sovereignty of God he has to believe that God has to be limited to man’s understanding? Philosophy cannot decipher how God can create man with free will and still be completely sovereign. So it insists that it has to be either or. Like God is not capable ie. He is limited and is incapable of doing both. Brother, have you considered the low sovereignty view that a Calvinist paints on the character of God if God not only decreed some to believe and most to not believe, whereby some will be saved and most will become fuel for hell, all for His glory. I know that’s not the way it’s preached from the Calvinist pulpit, but that’s the reality that is believed but not explained. But if you believe that God provided a way for all mankind to be saved, yet some receive while most reject, then the high view of God’s sovereignty in established as the blame is on man for rejecting and not on God. I know that emphasis is put on receiving salvation by Calvinist’s as if receiving is a work, but that is false. Please allow an example. If you found yourself in a situation where you suddenly were not able to provide for your family due to health issues due to an accident You are about to lose everything then a friend shows up at your door, he knocks and when you open he explains that he heard of your situation and decided to write you a check for a sum that will carry you until you get back on your feet. He extends his hand with a check on his hand. You have three choices, receive, reject, or stare at him. But neither action you take can add or take away from the gift of grace that he is offering to you. He worked for every penny that is represented on the check. There are many things that God showed us that we cannot know the exact how it was possible but because we experience them we believe. His creation for instance. We cannot explain past was in a given, but we don’t disbelieve because of the lack of explanation. In the same way God displays the mystery of His love for all mankind through his provision.
@@Mandbec Very well thought out and thank you for being so kind in your response (sad that I even need to say that). I have never heard it explained in that way before and it makes sense, but trust me this is the one thing I have wrestled with more than any other since I began reading scripture and theology in general. My belief I hold to is that God created everything you see before you and not a molecule on this planet is out of alignment with his overall plan. If God can do all these things surely if he truly wanted every soul saved then every soul would indeed be saved. When I have these theological discussions though I don't like to boil it down to philosophy and analogy's, (although your analogy with the money makes a lot of sense) but rather I go to the final authority in all things God's word. I first look at Ephesians 2:1 which starts with "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins" and goes to verses 4-5 which state 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved. So we see here we are spiritually dead (and a dead person is capable of nothing because he is in fact dead.) and it goes on to say that it takes an act of God which is "making us alive with Christ". It states in John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. The key word in that passage is the word CAN which is a word of ability. It does not say no one may come because we are called to preach to all the nations far and wide so all may come, but only those God give the ear to hear and are spiritually made alive CAN come because without that act we don't have the ability to choose him as in our natural state Paul states in Colossians 1 that we are enemies of God. You can point to where Jesus told his disciples "You did not choose me, but I chose you." We can go to 2 separate verses in 2 Timothy verse 20 which states In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. Similar to that verse there is whole section of Romans 9 dedicated to the subject verses 16-24 - 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? So it is crystal clear here that God creates us for his purpose and who are we to say what God does is right or wrong. As it states in scripture "as high as the heavens are above the earth so are my ways above your ways." We also see that last part of verse 24 it says "whom he also CALLED" Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice" so only those that are his will listen to the call. We also see in 2 Timothy 2:25 - Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth. so we see once again "in the hope God will GRANT them repentance because these things need to be given to us by God it unfortunately is not a choice we get to either make or not make is what I get from reading scripture. Romans 8:28-30 - 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Then further on in that chapter in verse 33 it states "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?" Once again God's CHOSEN. Whether you agree or disagree I appreciate you reading what I laid out, but I also had a free will outlook on the bible, but through much reading and studying I just find that in scripture the exact opposite is laid before us. Either way you are my brother and I will pray for you and hope to see you on the better side of life in the Glory God has in store for us brother.
Yes you're explaining this correctly. Galatians 3:24 "...the Law has become our tutor in order to lead us to Christ so that we may be justified by faith" John 5:46 "for if you had believed Moses you would believe Me (Jesus), for he wrote about Me"
Sorry, but you have not understood this, nor do you understand the gospel. The law does not lead anyone to Jesus. You, like all the fake christians that fill all the apostate churches do not at all understand saved by grace through faith.
@@adventures8977 ,...It is not that I dont believe Galatians or John, it is that I understand them as well as the gospel and Christianity of the Bible. Again, the real problem is you, like all those snared into all the apostate churches do understand saved by grace through faith. Do you understand that what the spiritually dead and blind refer to as "Calvinism" is the gospel and Christianity of the Bible?
@@adventures8977 ,....And as I said, you do not understand what saved by grace through faith means. The guy in this video has no idea what the gospel is and has not explained this correctly. Also, you failed to answer my question about Calvinism.
Great job! I would add that another thing needing to be emphasized is the "how" in this verse. How does the Father draw? This passage clearly shows that it is through His Word. Calvinism approaches this "drawing" as mystical, and attributes it to the Holy Spirit, of Whom drawing is never mentioned in scripture.
It’s amazing how Calvinists have to superimpose beliefs on Scripture to justify their beliefs. Nowhere in scripture does it say the HS draws anyone. He leads us into truth…
@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 the Holy Spirit "creates" faith? Where did you get that idea from? Faith is not some mystical substance. It is simply "belief" or "trust". You exercise it every time you sit in a chair. It is no different!
@@philaardsma7058 Sinner doesn't want to exercise faith in Christ until the Holy Spirit creates contrition through the law and faith through the gospel, natural man is unable to receive spiritual truth unless the Holy Spirit enables him to do so. "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life." John 6:63
@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 First of all the passage you reference in 1 Cor. Is taken out of context. Paul is talking to the carnal believers in Corinth and repremanding them for their imaturity. Carnal = natural in this instance. They are not unbelievers who cannot understand the deep things of God. They are carnal believers that are not mature enough to understand deeper doctine. Read chapt 3. Second of all, my bible says that life is given to those that believe and not the other way around (as you seem to be claiming). but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:31 KJV
Actually, you should have attacked Jeff’s third point. That’s the one that’s unbiblical because it assumes that only some people are being drawn. This is also the common fallacy that James White trips into here. They say the ONE who is drawn is lifted up. Jesus teaches that ALL are drawn, and the ones who listen, hear, believe (there’s 13 such statements by Jesus in John 6) are the ones who are lifted up.
Part of the reasoning is that v37 says "All those the Father gives me will come to me" which raises the question: what is the "giving" that precedes the coming to Christ?
@@markwebb7576 it’s God’s judgement of who have truly surrendered to him. Those are the ones God gives over to Jesus. God draws all men, some respond, those are the ones God gives to Jesus.
Thank you Jordan. You’ve done a great job of putting this verse in context of it’s immediate context as well as the context of this section of John, which brings out what Jesus is saying here with true clarity. I also think that there is a dispensational aspect to this as Jesus later said to his disciples, “no one comes to the Father except thru me”. Without context and taking into consideration the dispensation, this appears to be a contradiction (in Calvinism it is!). Here in chap 6 Jesus is speaking specifically to Jews, some who knew the Father and now would be drawn to Jesus since He is now here. Later He would be speaking to those who already knew Him and knew Him well but wanted Jesus to show them the Father. In either case, it is a drawing from those who had been following Jesus or the Father already who are then drawn. In neither case is it random unconditional election or irresistible drawing of random people.
Grateful for your work. I tend to fall more in line with a Calvinistic soteriology, in a much softer form. I do appreciate your exegesis of the text. Enjoy your channel.
You border on Palegianism! John said, “I write this to you so that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah!” John 20:31 So, John 6 was written to prove Jesus is the Messiah. In context John begins chapter 6 with Jesus performing miracles to prove Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus had said, "If you believed Moses you would believe me, for he wrote about me!" John 5:46 So In John 6 Jesus is speaking about people who were believers who belonged to God the Father and who were looking for the Messiah WHO WAS TO COME. The Father "gives" these believers to Jesus, the Messiah, who they were looking for. Jesus says in John 6:65, “This is why I TOLD YOU (referring back to and INTERPRETING VERSE 44) that no one can come to me (has the ability) unless the FATHER ENABLES them!” The Loving Father (1 John 4:8) enables, by grace, everyone to have the ability to come freely; not compelled like Calvinists teach. “The GRACE of God has appeared that offers salvation to all men!” Titus 2:11 (See 1 Corinthians 15:10) “Jesus said, the work of God is this, to believe in the one he has sent!” John 6:29 Jesus said, “When I am lifted up, I will draw (not compel, John 6:65) ALL men to myself!" John 12:32 So, all people, Jew and Gentile, have the ability to be free to choose, not compelled. Calvinists cannot answer why Adam sinned and fell from grace when he was created “good” and in a perfect environment in the Spirit and in communion with God. But Adam used his free will to fall from the grace of God (and so will Christians who use their free will to stop believing). But this is the foundation of their so called” logical system” which they read into the Bible. The greatest creation of God is a human created in the image of God with the mystery of free will which Calvinism takes away and makes people puppets who do not decide their own salvation destiny. Man is "dead in sin" separated from God, but God in His grace, which is GOD WORKING IN US (See Philippians 2:12-13, Hebrews 4:12, Romans 1:16, John 16.8), energizes men to exercise their free will to turn from being dead in sin to alive in Christ! Using their Calvinist glasses, the Calvinist reads Ephesians to say, “God chose us (TO BE) in Christ before the creation of the world!” Ephesians 1:4 ? No! It says, “God chose US IN CHRIST before the creation of the world TO BE HOLY and blameless in His sight!” Jesus is the Only chosen ONE. Luke 9:35 Verse 13 says we became chosen IN CHRIST when we chose to believe by the grace of God working in us, and then we are regenerated. (See John 20:31 where believing comes before life)! The order is: Grace -> repentance/faith -> new life in Christ A slam dunk reason why Calvinism is a heresy, is because of their doctrine of the atonement which says GOD the Father poured out his wrath and damned GOD HIS Son, and THE SECOND PERSON OF THE TRINITY WAS CUT OFF FROM THE FIRST PERSON! (SEE RC Sproul, Piper, McArthur, etc) Jeff Durbin? This SPLITS THE TRINITY and/or divides Christ into two persons which is the Nestorian heresy. This atonement heresy was not taught until Calvin came along. (Christus Victor was from the beginning.) Calvinists have INNOCENT JESUS being condemned when Proverbs 17:15 says this is an abomination of justice. Plus, Calvinists call their monster God “loving” who creates people and predestines most of them to go to hell with no chance to believe and be saved. This includes babies in the womb. If not, then it would be best to let people abort all babies so they would not go to hell. Plus, Esau was NOT a reprobate. Read in the Old Testament Genesis chapter 33. Esau was saved! It is a Prodigal Son story where Jacab looks at Esau and sees “THE FACE OF GOD.” So, there goes Romans 9 for the Calvinists. In context God was electing the line to Jesus through Jacob instead of Esau. This is not an election to salvation. Ironically, Calvinism is the doctrine of demons, not grace! Calvinists love Calvinism, because they were chosen and to hell with everyone else! Pride! The number one sin which we all have!
God doesn’t love everyone. He said so. He came to save his people, not whoever. ELECT Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Luke 19:10 For the Son of man *IS* come to seek and to save that which *WAS* lost. John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities. Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
God blessed Esau the man and Jacob reconciled with him. Esau in Malachi refers to the Esau’s descendants (Two nations are in your womb), the Edomites, and was said by God long after Esau the man was dead. God told the Israelites in Deut 23, “Do not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother.” It was only after Edom attacked the Israelites hundreds of years after Esau’s death that God through Malachi pronounced his hatred on “Esau” the nation. See Mal 1:4: “Edom will build, but I will throw down.” If that’s your only reference you should seriously reconsider such a radical position.
John 6:45 points to Isaiah 54, Jeremiah 31, and Ezekiel 36 ... in Is 54, we learn the Lord teaches his Children; In Jeremiah 31 we learn that a New Covenant will be established and the Law of God will be written on the hearts of His people; and the Prophet Ezekiel teaches how a person learns from the Father without actually seeing the Father (John 6:46). In Ezekiel Ch 36 you get the specific formula for regeneration: all actions of God ... He will cleanse you, give you a new heart, and then a new spirit. In case you are confused by what he is saying, Ezekiel then states this more clearly when he then states that your heart of stone will be replaced with a heart of flesh, then His Spirit will be put within you, then He will cause you to walk in His statutes and to obey His rules. (Ez 36: 22-32).
The Patristic witness rejects any calvinistic interpretation of this passage or any other passage of Scripture. Calvinism is a relatively NEW theology read into Scripture. Did the Church really have their doctrine wrong for 1500 yrs?
I really believe this is the correct way to understand John 6:44 It answers so many questions and helps clarify many of the other things Jesus said in the Gospels and the Book of Acts. Thanks for putting it out there Jordan! 🙏
Great stuff bro. Take that Jeff. Lol We still need to come back to answering the other pillar texts of Calvinism. Ephesians 1+2, Romans 5+9, Genesis 50:20, John 6+17, etc. We have much to cover. Lol
@@GreatLightStudios I’m here for it 🍿 A question I have about Ephesians 1 is regarding the interpretation that the “we” and “us” are actually Paul and the apostles not Paul and other believers. Hearing that interpretation was sooooo crazy because it made crystal clear sense I had never seen it until it was pointed out! BUT my question is how was Paul and the other apostles then chosen IN HIM to be holy and blameless and were predestined to adoption? We have always been saying that it is BELIEVERS who are chosen and predestined and that no one who is not IN CHRIST has any of these things. But now I see that Paul in context was simply referring to himself and the other apostles, but then how was Paul and the other apostles “in Christ” before they were born? I’m just actually still confused now because although the “we” and “us” being the apostles interpretation seems SO incredibly clear, I’m also somehow more confused now at the same time with this verse.
If you want to know the character and attributes of God , he is the same in the Old and New Testament . Can we look at Ezekiel 36:23-28 Duet 30:6 Heb8:10
Per Rom 8:29-30, the process of being drawn to God begins with 'foreknowledge' (Those whom God foreknew he - predestined - called - justified - glorified). What is it God foreknew? This question is explicitly answered in this very Chapter of scripture. Consider Jhn 6:64, "Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him." Note Jesus KNEW FROM THE BEGINNING.... who did and did not BELIEVE. He then directly links this FOREKNOWLEDGE to identification of those who would be 'drawn / called / enabled' by the Father to come to him in the very next verse. Consider Jhn 6:65, "He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” Therefore, per Jesus' direct statements in these two passages, the person who is FOREKNOWN TO BELIEVE will be 'drawn / called / enabled' by the Father to respond to the message/Spirit of the Gospel of Christ. These same did God know, predestine and call from before the foundation of the world.
Concerning Romans 8:29, I have heard 'foreknew' being defined 2 different ways. First, is 'to know the future'. This is what I always believed, and believe that God does know the future. So, I don't have an issue with that definition. Buy when I heard the other definition, everything made more sense. It could mean 'those he knew in the past'. Basically, Old Covenant believers in God. This makes more sense because of the phrase 'he might be the first born among many bretheren'. Regardless of how that word is defined, I am convinced that faith precedes predestination in this verse. It doesn't say they are predestined to be saved, or to have faith. But to be conformed to the image of Christ. So, people of faith are predestined. As for John 6, one big assumption people make is that the drawing is effectual. The argument made in this video and by Dr Flowers would probably have no issue with the idea that all drawn come to the Son, based on their view that the verse is speaking of believers. Because they believed the father, they believed the Son. But even if that's not the case, I would argue that all are drawn by God (thus enabled) but people can still reject him.
Yes, people who responded to the prophets and the Law those were who listened to the Father and then they were directed to Jesus. YWHW did not select them arbitrarily, they selected themselves by not listening to the Father based on their own choice.
I came across a new argument (for me) for Regeneration preceding faith. When Jesus tells Nicodemus that (in summary) the Spirit comes and goes like the wind and we don't know where.... I feel that explanation wouldn't make any sense if the Spirit only went where there was faith waiting for it... and it would seem that the Spirit would be limited by the faith of man... I would be interested to see a good response... John 3:5-6. It seems to make more sense from the reformed perspective.
For the most part, I agree with this. I feel like the equivalent statements may need to be expounded more thoroughly. I was confused on how & why we should equate those statements. I completely agree with your link to Gal 3:7. Those with faith are the sons of Abraham. The “deeds” of Abraham spoken of in John 8 are obeying God and having faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Gal 3:8 says God preached THE GOSPEL to Abraham. Additionally, you should use Gal 3:26, not Gal 3:7 to see how one becomes a son of God. Gal 3:7 is how to be a son of Abraham. Galatians 3:26 (NASB95) For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. I think one of the better arguments for John 6:44 is to keep reading on to John 6:64-65. Jesus disciples start grumbling that what he said in v44 was confusing, so Jesus explains what He meant in v44 in v64-65. John 6:64-65 (NASB95) 64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” Jesus knew who did not believe and said for that reason (they did not believe) He said they couldn’t come to the father. This statement makes the drawing of 6:44 dependent upon faith. Abraham has a greater role in John 6 than many realize. Twice in this chapter, Jesus & his students quote from the Old Testament to support his teaching (v31 & v45). John 6:31 (NASB95) “Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’” John 6:45 (NASB95) “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. John 6:53 (NASB95) So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. Often v31 is cross referenced with Neh 9:15, and v45 is cross referenced with Isa 54:13. However, you can actually cross reference BOTH passages to Neh 9:20. Nehemiah 9:15 (NASB95) “You provided bread from heaven for them for their hunger, You brought forth water from a rock for them for their thirst, And You told them to enter in order to possess The land which You swore to give them. Nehemiah 9:20 (NASB95) “You gave Your good Spirit to instruct them, Your manna You did not withhold from their mouth, And You gave them water for their thirst. In fact, Neh 9:20 goes on to speak to hunger & thirst (just as Jesus says eat my flesh and drink my blood) as well as being taught of the Lord, whereas Isa 54:13 only speaks of being taught by God. The reason this is interesting is because the context in Neh 9:7-8 shows why Abraham was chosen (elect). It makes a critical statement about Abraham’s faith: Nehemiah 9:7-8 (NASB95) 7 “You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham. 8 “You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite-- To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous. God FOUND Abraham’s heart faithful, He didn’t cause or give him faith! So the context referenced by Jesus in Neh 9 is that of Abraham becoming elect or chosen because God FOUND faith in his unregenerate heart.
Wow bro, you put a lot into that post. Gonna make me read Nehemiah now 😁. Thanks for taking the time to add the full verse reference in there. It makes for a long post but it does make it easier to read (since I can read them there without having to go look then up).
This interpretation (as opposed to some other non-Calvinist interpretations) lets us bypass the main arguments you’ll hear from Calvinists on these verses: 1) “Draw” means “drag” (A: That’s great. Those that have faith in the Father are dragged/compelled towards faith in Jesus. No problem here.) 2) The chain from drawing to coming to being raised up is unbreakable. (Since the drawing requires a “synergistic” learning and listening and the subject doing the coming and being lifted up are those who have faith in Christ and abide in Him, then once again there is no problem.)
Your explanation seems to make it sound like , "only those who were following the O.T. teachings with truthful understanding and faith could be open to the truth's of Christ's teachings in the N.T." Am I misunderstanding?
Excellent video. I have done quite a lot of study on this as well and my conclusion is very similar to yours. You mentioned the sheep of Jesus in chapter 10. I thought I would add a little bit to this. Generally speaking, I believe it is important to understand this in terms of transition and covenant transfer. In the Old Covenant, all of the people of Israel were Israelites, though not all were truly saved. The New Covenant would be composed of only those who were repentant believers. John's ministry emphasized this and those who repented and believed were transferred to following Jesus. As for the sheep of John 10, under the Old Covenant, all of Israel were the sheep of the Lord in one sense, but those who were believers were transferred to Jesus as the Shepherd of Israel. In one sense, he took them out of the old covenant and transferred them to the new covenant and a saving relationship with Christ. The rest would remain under that old covenant dispensation which could not save. The unbelieving Jews would later be judged and have the kingdom taken from them.
Calvinism is just an attack on God's ability to create people who can/do actually love Him, I have become convinced. Very much like what we see in the book of Job. People who don't/can't love their fellow humans (narcissistic sociopaths in the modern jargon) are running the show, and constantly venting their anti-human sentiments, and disbelief that humans can love anything but what they do (themselves).
Here's a question for you. We can read this near the beginning of the Book; "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Was He right, or wrong?
I don't firmly adhere either to Calvinism or Arminianism (I think it's a bit more complex than either one on its own portrays things to be), but to reduce the "drawing" in verse 44 down to primarily a person's disposition towards scripture (or Moses or anything else you mentioned) and then focus in on that at least puts us in danger of taking God out of that equation altogether. Regardless of the mechanics of how that "drawing" works (or "granting/giving" in verse 65), God is a direct and primary agent in that process, (rather than that agent consisting only in someone's response or disposition). Jesus wouldn't have put it the way he did if that wasn't the case. As for your hypothesis about how the mechanics of the "drawing" work, the mention in other chapters of John of things like the writings of Moses, knowing the Father and other such things also aren't ever implied to be the only driving force behind that "drawing". The idea that the Father teaches or enlightens people in a more direct way (rather than just through them reading the Old Testament Scriptures) isn't one that's strictly Calvinistic, either. You'll find some Arminian authors talking about both of those ways of "drawing" as being in play here. Lastly, under-emphasizing God's role in this also tarnishes a great verse for assurance. Since God is portrayed as the primary agent in the "drawing" that takes place, we can know that, regardless of HOW it works, if we've come to Christ (and all the fruit is there that shows we're in him) or even feel drawn to Christ, that God is still at work in us. It's the work of God, first and foremost.
You also are completely confused and do not understand the truth, the gospel, nor the Christianity of the Bible. What the Biblically illiterate call "Calvinism" is the one and only truth, gospel, and Christianity of the Bible. Anyone who does not firmly understand and hold to this ("Calvinism") is simply not a Christian.
If Jn.6:44 doesn’t apply to gentiles just because Jesus was speaking to His disciples/Jews, then perhaps Jn.15:15(just one example) also applies only to the disciples; they are His friends and not us His followers.
This is also a Calvinist needs to know because when you inevitably paint them into a corner of their heresy, they will argue that faith is a work. Well Ephesians 2: 8-9 tells you otherwise, in that they are separate from each other. Remember, Dispensationalism is your friend, and yes it is doctrine, the very word is mentioned 4 times in scripture: Ephesians 1:10 Ephesians 3:2 Colossians 1:25 1 Corinthians 9:17 If you don't see "dispensation" in those verses, then throw out whatever translation you're using and pick up a KJV and stick to that only. The KJV is the only translation that follows the strict masoretic rules of translating from original scripture.
Have you ever done Philippians 1:29 ... For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
Thank you for another Non-Calvinist explanation. I agree with most of what you presented. However, between the 2:05-2:13 mark, you say No one comes to Jesus unless the Father chooses to draw him. The text most definitely does not say that, and this is also the Calvinist's mistake. John 6:44 says that "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;". Therefore, you can exegete that those who are drawn can, or are able, to come. It does not say that all who are drawn will come. So, the most you can say is that those who come were drawn. You cannot say, and should not infer, that those who don't come were not drawn (see John 12:32). Definitely those who had listened and learned from the Father came. Since they came they were drawn. However, we can't say that those who don't come are not being drawn or that the Father only chooses some to draw. How does the Father draw all? See Romans 1:16-20.
What the spiritually dead and blind call "Calvinism" is the truth, the gospel, and the Christianity of the Bible. Anyone who does not understand what Calvin understood is not a Christian. Your freewill gospel is a 100% false manmade fraud. It in another gospel of the accursed of God. Repent!
Honestly, you don't even need to go to other chapters to establish the obvious: God draws to Jesus those who hear from the Father. It's right there in the very context of John 6 and, like you pointed out, in verse 45 and onwards. It's really hard to understand why this text is even controversial to begin with. God draws to Jesus those who hears the Father. Jesus point was that they didn't hear the Father (like they claimed), otherwise they would be drawn to him. Seems simple enough.
Sweet, we read the verses out of order. Jumping all over the text instead of walking through it also. We also don’t start at the beginning and walk through it
I believe the root question has to do with the word drawn. Is it effectual or not. I don't believe it is. First, I believe the whole crowd was drawn to him. But many of them left in unbelief. It is possible that those that left believed later. But John 12:32, Jesus said he would draw all people to himself. John 6:44 never says that unbelievers aren't drawn. The drawing enables them, but doesn’t make them believe!
15:06 You said "what would decide if you were a child of Abraham? If you believe." Apparently you missed the part where Abraham was chosen and elect of God BEFORE Abraham produced offspring in the faith. Abraham DIDN'T choose God, God chosen Abraham. Actually, Abraham proved demonstratiably from the texts that his works were not in belief, bht disbelief, and taking matters into his own hands against the promises of God. Yes, only the elect, the chosen and called of God, will be "children of Abraham." Why? Because not everyone is called.
Yeah, I guess Abram, in Gen. 12:4 was just preprogrammed and like a puppet on a string departed as the Lord had spoken to him. But wait, let's not forget: Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. That's right, "by faith...he/Abraham obeyed."
@patrickg.7668 Your answer is robotic, as is all Exhaustive Self Determinists. Like a puppet on a string, you will always, always, circle all your answers back to the glory of mans imaginary autonomous free will.
@patrickg.7668 Faith is given by God to believe. No man generates faith from his flesh, that's called "imaginations." Faith is a noun, not an imagination.
@ManassehJones Hello, that is only if your system is true. If it were true, then I'd have no other choice in what to reply because it's all determined, correct? Additionally, all of what you say is determined as well. If you wish to have a free thinking discussion, let me know. Have a wonderful day, sir. Yes, I freely said that, by the grace of God(?),YES, but freely it was.
@patrickg.7668 Systems are for the children of the world. The elect are servants in the kingdom of God, obeying the Spirit of God, not your man made-up systems of unregenerates
Understand what you’re saying. The best Calvinist response would simply be Luke 19:10 where didn’t come to seek and save the “already believing” but the lost, or Mark 2:17 where the sick need a physician not a healthy person (your Godfearers), or Luke 5:32 (Matt. 9:13) where he came to call sinners not the righteous. Paul echoes the same sentiment for Christ’s earthly mission in 1 Tim. 1:15. It would be granted that in Luke 5 that the distinction is between the “self righteous” but even in granting that it cannot be that even the Pharisees are not the objects of Jesus’ call. He absolutely invited them as sinners as it was his purpose to do so because his mission was pointed at those who were lost, not the ones who already believed as those who are well don’t need a doctor. Your point would literally controvert Christ’s stated mission. The definition of “sheep” is also too narrow, for having heard and learned from him before presumes that no one could see Jesus in this period unless he was already a believer… no new converts unless they already believe? Jesus explanation was that they were not his sheep and this condition is what kept them from belief. Your take does not make sense of this.
John 6 is simply CHRIST explaining the relationship between HIM and THE FATHER, but calvinists of course make it about them and it's just so ridiculous . Calvinists like the pharrissees think they're saved because of who they are, who they're born as.
I think we split too many hairs. I've been to a lot of school, and I just remain unconvinced that the answer will be found in the obscure details for grammar/syntax. I'm not saying it's unimportant, otherwise I wasted a whole lot of time, rather, the language structure supports the translation, but you've just got to read it. The Bible isn't trying to trick us and only the one with the secret decoder ring gets the truth. The Bible is speaking in plain language. You have to have the Calvinist worldview before you read the text to come to their conclusions in many more passages than not. Calvinism, Dispensationalism, X-ism, Y-ism... the Bible isn't meant to require you to hold your mouth just right and cross your eyes to get to the truth, it is written to reveal the truth to us. Just my 2¢
It's a good explanation and I agree. However I don't think it needs to be even this expansive. The Greek "elkô" (to draw) most commonly means to drag. This speaks of a sinner struggling to leave a sinful life and come to Christ, rather than a simple "switching on" of faith by God as the Calvinists suggest.
The Greek is ἑλκύω ἕλκω or helkuō helkō. Calvinists always jump on that drag definition but when you look at the use it isn't to drag forcibly against your will--it is to pull like drawing a sword from a sheath or to pull in a net which has been cast. There's also other words also used in the OT and NT which mean to draw, to attract to, or to come near. So while helkuō helkō literally means to move something from one place to another in a tangible manner and not just attract something, it doesn't imply to forcibly move someone against their will. Jesus did use that word in Matthew 11, and it is ἁρπάζω/harpazō and He used it to directly contrast God's/the Kingdom of Heaven's way versus those who harpazō. Ironically, this makes the Calvinists the enemy of the Kingdom.
But you didn't really make any arguments that contradict calvanism. You described basis for when people on either side of this predestined eternity path they will walk in life reveal them selves. But you did not make any arguments against why calvinism isn't biblical. The Prophets, Moses, and the people who walked with God in the old testiment had faith. This was evidence of the work of God in their hearts externally and internally.
Hi Jordan, Would be great if you went through in a video what Calvinists call the "Golden Chain": Those God forknew (the elect) He predestined, and those God predestined He called, and those God called He justified and those God justified He WILL also glorify, according to what I have heard from Calvinists. I don't fully know myself how to understand this. Christ love, Peter "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." - Romans 8:29-30 Christ love, Peter
The word foreknew simply means to know before. Instead of thinking of it in terms of election of individuals from the foundation of the world (be it according to calvinist or arminian understanding of such) think of it as referring to the people that God walked with prior to Paul's writing, that is, the Old Testament saints. The point Paul is making is that the reason we can be certain that God will work everything for the good of those who love him is because he has done it before. Those he knew before, he also predestined. Those he predestined, he also called (notice the word called showing up here seems redundant if simply referring back to "those who love God and are called" more generally, but makes sense if referring to a specific subset of God lovers that formerly walked with him on earth).
Hi! It would be great if Jordan covered that topic! In the meantime, maybe this will help you out. I'd like to note that the predestination in Romans 8 is for adoption, not salvation. Adoption is not the process by which Christians are made children of God, we are made children of God when we believe. Adoption in the context of the chapter (and in Ephesians 1 and Galatians 4) is not something past, but future, something even Paul was hoping for. Adoption is the moment where the children of God are made manifest through the glorification of the body. So we are predestined to receive adoption, not before the foundation of the world (that is not an idea that's in the chapter), but in the moment we get sealed by the Spirit. So the golden chain (predestinated, called, justified, glorified) is perfectly intact from our point of view, because we are predestined to receive the adoption of the children of God, we are called to be saints, we are justified by Christ's atoning sacrifice, and we will be glorified.
Hey brother can i please ask you something? I know its not in context with this video but i was worried beacouse i thought i might have blasphemed and i just wanted assurance. So i discussed with my friends what blasphemy is (Attributing the spirits work with the devil) and meanwhile i made a few examples of what would need to be said without realizing i was actually saying the blasphemy in that moment. I just wanted them to understand my fear and what i was alking about. ---Still basically saying the blasphemy multiple times. Do you think i did the sin? I obviously didnt mean what i said. I feel so helpless and i think i fell for the devils trap. And in the bible stands: "Whoever speaks against the holy spirit". I dont know if the context its spoken in is important but i spoke against it. I already repented but feel like its too late. Please help me❤️🙏
@@seasonedwithsalt5129 What do you mean man? Please all i want is to stay with god but i dont know if i did the sin? Please help me and say what you think. God bless you
@@yourlostairpod9556 ,...Yes, you have done the sin! You are not a Christian but you claim to be. You have blasphemed the Holy Spirit and lied to God and to the Holy Spirit, and to the world. If you will read the verses I have provided for you, you will see that this mention of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is surrounded by pointing out the difference of those who are Christians and those who claim to be but are not. By claiming to be a Christian when one is not, they have condemned themselves. Matthew Ch. 12, 30, "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 31, Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32, And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 33, Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34, O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35, A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36, But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37, For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."
@yourlostairpod9556 "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" is conscious and hardened opposition to the truth, "because the Spirit is truth" (1 John 5:6). Conscious and hardened resistance to the truth leads man away from humility and repentance, and without repentance, there can be no forgiveness. Simply put, Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not believing. "For those who wonder if they have committed the unpardonable sin. I’ve known people who struggle reading about the reality of this “unpardonable sin,” as they wonder if they have committed this sin. I think such wrestling is likely an indication that they have not done this, as the Spirit is at work in terms of convicting them of sin and helping them recognize they fall short of God’s glory. In addition, they are aware of sin and struggle to believe the immeasurable riches of God’s grace. Those who commit this sin do not struggle with their sin or with God’s grace - they presume God’s grace or think they are not greatly in need of it."
The doctrinal battle between calvanists and provisionists is substantial in some Christian circles. -I have several friends that are big-time Calvinists and I once was in that vein. Not so much anymore now I just like to know the other side because sometimes I think they identify more as Calvinists than Christians, even though they would not admit to that.
my brother nice try but you didnt't exegete the text you only jumped around to different verseS which when read in context arent even related to john 6:45
I’m 11 minutes in and haven’t heard anything that refutes a Calvinist understanding of John 6. You could assume what you presented refutes the Calvinist understanding if you beg the question pertaining to human freedom and total depravity, but other than that, everything you presented can be accepted by a Calvinist.
Don’t be so reformed and listen to the rest, it will provide context ( keep reading, context matters ) It’s only another 12 minutes then your opinion might carry a bit more credibility.
John 6:65 Begins *_“BECAUSE OF THIS”_* you cannot come to me unless the Father gives you to me... What is the THIS? Verse 65 is an answer to the previous verse 64: UNBELIEF is what prevents the Father from giving them to the Son; not because God indiscriminately picks people for destruction. The tares (unbelievers) then walked away from Christ in the verses following, and the Believers (wheat) stayed and walked with Him. John 6:64-65 YLT *_but there are certain of you who do not believe;'_” 65 and he said, `*_Because of this_* I have said to you -- No one is able to come unto me, if it may not have been given him from my Father.'
Christ is speaking about jews and gentiles alike. This is very clearly laid out through the entire Bible. The "all" that Christ speaks of that were given to him by the Father are the same "all" that Christ speaks of and prays for John 17. John 17:1-3: "These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." David speaks of this many times in the Psalms. Ps 65:2-4: "O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come. Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away. Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." You will worshiping idolaters are despicable and under strong delusion. 2Ths 2:10-14: "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." Christ says "no man" not "no jew" John 6:44: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." www.apuritansmind.com/arminianism/the-%e2%80%9cgod%e2%80%9d-of-arminianism-is-not-worshippable/
Zechariah & Elizabeth Luk 1:6 ISV Both of them were righteous before God, having lived blamelessly according to all of the commandments and regulations of the Lord.
Please learn the theological system you are critiquing first, before you attack it. You are not qualified at this stage to do so. No Calvinist believes God is the cause of people rejecting Him. That belongs to man's sinful heart. Please learn the system of belief first. Stop sharing with the world what you don't know. It's embarrassing to watch!
Hi Stephen, I'd suggest that you actually don't understand the system I'm critiquing. Jeff Durbin and many other Calvinists like him certainly do believe that God is the ultimate cause of all sin and evil. You said that this "belongs to man's sinful heart..." -- but in Calvinism, hasn't God determined what the nature of man's heart would be. As the Westminster confession says... "God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;" God has ordained WHATSOEVER comes to pass. This includes sin. I'd also recommend you should read more of Calvin... the namesake of your system who clearly believed that God is the ultimate cause of the sinner's rejection of Himself... "…how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He will, rewarding them nonetheless according to desert? Again it is quite clear from the evidence of Scripture that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills just as he will, whether to good for His mercy’s sake, or to evil according to their merits. ” (John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,” 10:11)
@GreatLightStudios Thanks for reply. Note Calvin's words, 'Divine justice....' Context is everything. God is not the author of evil. Neither the confessions, nor Calvin teach that. Rather, whichever way one puts it, the buck stops with God. Unless you have a God who has no control or power. If He is all powerful, then He has absolute control over all things. Even if by mere allowance, He still allows it. God planned the brutal murder of an innocent man, His Son, did He not? Acts 2v23. And what of: 2Sa 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 2Sa 12:12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun. Besides, there is such a thing as judicious hardening of man's heart, or a giving him over to sin. Yes, ultimately God does decree all things for His glory, yet is not the author of sin. We would never know what grace, forgiveness, mercy, love, compassion, goodness, long-suffering, and the like, were it not for sins entrance into the world. So, in that sense, God did decree sin, though He is not the cause or author sin. 'God is light, and in Him is no darkness..' There is an element of divine mystery in all these things. From the strong Calvinist John Gill: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil; this is added to illustrate the general proposition in the preceding clause, and to obviate an objection, that might be taken from the destruction of the wicked, against all things being for the glory of God; for even the destruction of the wicked, which is under a divine appointment, is for his glory. It is not the sense of this text, nor of any other passage of Scripture, that God made man to damn him; nor is this to be inferred from the doctrine of predestination: God made man, neither to damn him, nor to save him, but for his own glory; and that is secured, whether in his salvation or damnation; nor did or does God make men wicked; he made man upright, and he has made himself wicked; and, being so, God may justly appoint him to damnation for his wickedness, in doing which he glorifies his justice.
Pure compromising Calvinist nonsense - "God is the cause of ALL things" "God doesn't cause people to reject Him" Read Romans 9 slowly and frequently and by God's grace you may believe what God declares.
I have never seen this short 3 minute clip from Paul Washer but it may be the best quick explanations I have heard on our nature and why John 6 is consistent with Calvinist doctrine. ua-cam.com/video/6V2c9T8KEDY/v-deo.html
Did David obey the Lord by his own free will? Did Saul obey before he was converted? So what you are saying is that all these people need is "reason and logic" and they would be true followers of Jesus. Is that how the disciples came to follow Jesus? By your argument, people simply need proper instruction and they will freely choose to do the right thing. Do you believe that God desires all men to be saved? If that is true then God would not have given men free will since He knows that they will not all choose Him. You are only left with 2 options 1. God is powerless to bring about his desires. 2. God is lying and He really does not want all men to be saved. The real question is, How does a holy and immortal all powerful God get what He wants? John 6:63-71 In this part of the book it is crystal clear that the reason they do not follow is because it has not be granted to them. vs 65 "This is why I told you that no one CAN come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
@@aletheia8054 ,...Jesus only came for, and only died for the few who are his chosen ones, his elect. The other 99% of the worlds population who fill all the 100% apostate churches are all vessels of wrath made to be destroyed.
people were fearing the Lord? yes, and all those who responded to Jesus believing in him were saved, his disciples, his brothers, and more as we can see in the book of Acts. Jesus told them (the Jews in chapter 8 of John's gospel) could not hear the words of God, because they were not of God. v.47. the word of God had no place in them Jesus said. v. 37. Also verse 34. Jesus said that they're in bondage to sin. And only the Son can make them free v. 36. not them but the Son. oh, and one more thing. The Life of Christ was still in the OT. The NT began after his ascension.
The Jews in the first century had the scripture about the massiah, so it’s not any wonder they believe in the messiah. That doesn’t make them any less elect and predestined .
I can’t tell exactly, but you seem to be presenting a Pelagian take, at least in some of the concepts you presented. As in, it seems you are suggesting that people just need to do what they should do, like accept the truth when presented. If what you mean is that people are presented revelation, and then through inherent cognitive abilities come to the conclusion that the revelation presented is true, which results in them fearing God, being drawn to the Son, and believing in him for their salvation, then yes, that is very much Pelagian.
What about the Holy Spirit's conviction of sin, righteousness and judgement? Do you think that could play a part in how someone could respond to the gospel?
Yes, these people teach the same thing what Erasmus of Rotterdam believed when he debated Martin Luther, that we have a free will to make a decision of faith.
The one who comes to Him will be raised up, not everyone who is drawn. The antecedent of Him who is raised up is he who comes to Him, not everyone who is drawn. Jesus saud if He was lifted up, He would draw all men unto Himself. He was lifted up on the cross; He does draw all men. John 12:32. All are drawn, but not everyone comes to Him. Therefore, the requirement is to be drawn, but all men are draen. It expresss, not exclusivity, but that God must instigate the relsmationship by drawing us to Jesus. Jesus, same person and member of the Godhead who spoke John 6:44, said that if He was lifted up, He would draw all men to Himself. Did Jesus say that idly? No; He couldn't have. He draws all men; some come to Him. But "this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, and MEN preferred darkness because their deeds were evil". So some come to the light, and some refuse to come to the light. Who comes to the light, those people who haven't done wrong? No, that's just the opposite of the truth. All have sinned, including all those who turn to Jesus. Jesus came into the world to save sinners, not the righteous. Compare the publican with the Pharisee: which one comes to the light? Jesus is not preaching a gospel of works or self-righteousness. The only "deeds" they want to be clearly seen are "wrought IN God", are not all of their deeds, but it is this turning to God, pouring themselves upon His mercy, because its a response to God holding out his hands in an offer of salvation, and all who receive it get real salvation (not just potential salvation, some "empty," mere offer, as Calvinism denigrates it to be less that actual salvation.) The publican wants God to clearly see that he has grasped the grace God has given him to turn in repentance, and that His mercy is all that he has. He is beating his breast, that God see and hear this repentance, but there's not a bit of self-righteousnss in it. So the some who come to the light, do so because they are "doing truth". It doesn't mean that they have always done the truth, but they are, now, in this repentant turning to God. Notice that it isnt saying some do evil and others do good. We all do evil; some eventually do the truth. The thief on the cross railed against Jesus with the other thief, at first, but he turned from that lie, and he then did the truth. The self-righteous pharisee in the parable never came to the light. He built himself up in his own mind and settled for that. He "prayed with himself", rather than pray to God. And what the publican had was his own reaction, residing and coming from him, but it was "wrought IN God".
🙏 To preach Repentance and Remission of sins to Everyone, All nations Luke 24:47 KJV and that [repentance] and [remission of sins] should be [preached] in his name among [all nations,] beginning at Jerusalem. - Sincere turn from (practice) of (sin) and (willful sin) or (All) will perish Luke 13:3 KJV I tell you, [Nay:] but, except [ye repent,] ye shall [all] [likewise] [perish.] - Believe for your faith will save you, for believing leads to (pardon of sins) to not (die) in (sin) John 8:24 KJV I said therefore unto you, that [ye shall die] in your sins: for [if ye believe not] that I am he, ye shall [die] in your [sins.] - Receive forgiveness of sins when we are converted, + multiple ways for remission of sins, (pardon of sins) Acts 10:43 KJV To him give all the prophets witness, that through his [name] [whosoever believeth] [in him] shall [receive] [remission of sins.] - Love God and love thy neighbor as thyself, for love will (cover) all sins, (pardon of sins) Proverbs 10:12 KJV Hatred stirreth up strifes: but [love] [covereth] all [sins.] Luke 7:47 KJV Wherefore I say unto thee, [Her sins,] which [are many,] [are forgiven;] for [she loved much:] but to whom [little is forgiven,] the same [loveth little.] - Have frevernt (love) among (the brethren) and (the people) for frevernt (love,) giving, having conpassion shall (cover) the multitude of sins, (pardon of sins) 1 Peter 4:8 KJV And above all things have fervent [charity] [among yourselves:] for [charity] shall [cover] the [multitude of sins.] - Preaching and (converting the sinner) from the error of his way will (hide) a multitude of sins, (pardon of sins) James 5:20 KJV Let him know, that he which [converteth] the sinner from the [error of his way] shall save a [soul] from [death,] and shall [hide] a [multitude of sins.] - Confession of sin, confess your sins everyday for the forgiveness of sins, (pardon of sins) 1 John 1:9 KJV If we [confess] our sins, he is faithful and just to [forgive] us [our sins,] and to [cleanse us] from all [unrighteousness.] - (Water baptism) for the (remission of sins), remission/pardon/forgiveness of sins Acts 2:38 KJV Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be [baptized] every one of you in the [name] of [Jesus Christ] for the [remission of sins,] and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. - To give knowledge of salvation to all by the (remission) of (our) (sins), (pardon of sins) Luke 1:77 KJV To give [knowledge] of [salvation] unto his people [by] the [remission] of their [sins,] - Those (predestined), will die in (0 sin,) all sins were pardoned by the (remission of sins) Matthew 24:13 KJV [13] But he that shall [endure] unto [the end,] the same [shall be saved.]
These videos are such a waste of time. It all boils down to how our presuppositions influence how we interpret scripture. And we can make the bible mean ANYTHING. These debates have been going on for centuries. Therefore, Jordan is NOT bringing anything new to the table.
Trying to make sense of the Bible just as long as it’s not Calvinism is an ignorant and arrogant approach. There was no definition. No understanding of ancient language, customs cultures and figures of speech. Everything he said was predicated on being against the Calvinist. It was the main part of his method of hermeneutic.
But you are not a calvinist although it seems like you agree with parts of it. What do you disagree with Calvinism about? Do you follow any particular Christian tradition?
@@jwtre original sin. Adam didn’t have a free will. Sin is not imputed. Christmas is pagan Babies doing go to hell Predestined to conform to Christ Not just predestined I don’t run to the Westminster confession for my doctrine No water baptism No “holy communion”
@@aletheia8054 interesting. 1. You’re probably wrong on original sin and imputed sin. Or at least your statement is too strongly worded. Adam having free will is kind of irrelevant. Romans 5:12-21 2. Christmas was originally pagan. And most Christmas celebrations are debauchery. Still Christ was born and there is nothing wrong with have a humble quiet meal with your family. 3. Some babies might go hell but it’s totally irrelevant to how we life our lives. Jesus clearly loved the children and did not want anyone to hinder them or lead them astray. As we can not see the heart, we have no idea which children sincerely love him. 4. True - Roman’s 8:29-30 5. No one runs to the Westminster confession 6. Might not be necessary as a sacrament for salvation. However Christ was baptized in water. All the apostles baptized believers in water. John 3:5 “born of water and the spirit”. Do you consider water baptism sin? 7. Might not be necessary as a sacrament for salvation. However Christ asked his disciplines to do this in remembrance of him. Do you consider communion sin?
@@aletheia8054 yes thanks I appreciate it. I was just wondering where you and Manny get your theology and if you subscribe to any particular Christian tradition. The reason is because the things you guys say sound familiar and certainly overlap with parts of reformed theology. For example we all agree that Great Light is unregenerate, unsaved, illiterate, and greatly deceived though he has no control over the matter and this channel feeds lies to reprobates who think they know God but are perishing. I most closely identify with Calvinism, especially having to do with God’s sovereignty, however I might not agree with everything. Also I’ve never attended a Calvinist or reformed church but I was raised and baptized in a mainstream non-Calvinist evangelical church. I no longer attend those churches.
I have found that so many of the main Calvinist teachers do such a good job exegeted so many texts of Scripture, but when they come to a texts like John 6 that at first glance seem to support Calvinism, they go off into proof-texting instead of doing careful exegesis. I did the same thing with John 6 for so many years focusing in on verses 37 and 44 as Proofs, but not seeing them in context (especially of verse 45 about “being taught of God” and “learning from the Father.” Now, John 6 makes so much more sense with all of the other texts in John that you have pointed out (5:37-38; 8:19, 39-47). Thank you brother!
Interesting breakdown. I'll have to look into this for myself.
I really mulled over John 6 a month ago and noticed something consistent with what you said. Jesus talks a lot about coming to him and trusting before he goes into the "drink my blood and eat my flesh" teaching that drives so many disciples away. Then he asks his disciples if they are going to leave as well. But they say "where would we go?" Said another way, "we have come to you" and we have trusted (put our faith in you).
I am thankful for your calm and kind presentation. Jumping ahead in John to chapter 20, John's presentation of Jesus (especially the signs of his power/identity) that he has tied to Old Testament revelation allows his reader to "jump the line" by "believing that Jesus is the Son of God" regardless of whether they had been steeped in the law and prophets or not. By believing in Jesus, the fulfillment of the law, the reader could have "life in his name". I think that shows that just as Jesus's actual audience in John 6 (Jews who had the law and prophets) would be drawn by the Father's full revelation (his Son) as having the same quality of truth and grace as the scriptures (a la John 1:18), new readers encountering the truth and grace in Jesus's life would be drawn by the Father's disclosure of love (John 3:16-17).
Thanks a lot!
This makes perfect sense. I have read this so many times and missed it. Thank you for this, brother. I am not a Calvinist… not that it matters.
Doctrine matters! This was an excellent point!!!!
Jordon,
such an overlooked vital sign in any worthwhile battle or skirmish is character and fruit, during and after the battle.
In nearly 60 years of living within a culture of Calvinism, I’ve only ever met 1 person, who subscribes to Calvinism and has actually displayed any character traits of biblical “ fruit “ or likeness or image bearing of Christ.
You and many like minded followers more often than not, represent a humble posture that we would expect from a disciple of Jesus..thank you and your family for your commitment to glorifying the truths of God and His word.
✌️
Thank you so much! That's very encouraging!
I am in the same / similar situation. I have been in reformed churches my whole life. I would guess you have been in a hyper Calvinist church that tends to shut out others as they defend their position. This is a problem in a lot of churches. I was just sent a comment by someone who grew up Pentecostal and said exactly the same thing about what he experienced. Our sinful nature and our personal experiences do not change truth. All the arguments we hear against Calvinism are rooted in not wanting it to be true, because of the consequences. Jordan says this ALL the time.
Jordans exegesis of John 6 has truth contained in it. If people correctly see how the promises that the old testament spoke of they could come to the conclusion Jesus could be the Messiah. That truth still must be revealed to them however since Jesus said clearly...
John 6;65 "This why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father. "
Same thing today, you can have brilliant scholars know the Bible inside and out but fail to place their faith in the simple promise of the gospel.
Very well said my friend. As a Messianic Jew for over 40 years what you shared has always been my understanding and approach when sharing the good news with the Jewish people, it is just Biblical common sense, Shalom
Great job explaining Jordan. This is another prime example of Calvinist reading things into the text. But this also is a good warning for all of us, take the time to read the text entirely and understand the context. I believe this leads to rejecting Calvinism and many other issues.
Thanks for the video.
Good on you Jordan. Jesus was speaking to the Jews. He was not talking about the Gentiles who would later be grafted in. Context is very important, and you have done a good job rightly dividing the Word.
And that is some big revelation? Even the Calvinist believe that.
It's easy to interpret it that way if you already have a dispensationalist presupposition. I use to, and now I agree with Jeff. Both sides claim to have CONTEXT
@@aletheia8054
Some might.
In their back-and-forth, James White has repeatedly disagreed with Leighton Flowers- Flowers takes the stance that Jordan takes and James disagrees. I’ve also seen Calvinists on FB, and here on YT, disagree with Flowers (and the Provisionist Perspective, who has said the same thing as Flowers and Jordan).
Maybe James White and those who follow him, plus the random social media Calvinist s I’ve seen, are in a very small minority. I agree that could be true.
The fact that he's speaking to a select group of people doesn't automatically narrow the meaning of what he's saying, though. For example, he says throughout John 6, in some form or another, that whoever believes in him will have eternal life. You and everybody else who reads this would agree that those types of statements are true for anybody, anywhere who believes in him, and that's because even though he's speaking to a specific group, the concepts he's illustrating are generally applicable. It would be weird if he suddenly only meant "nobody among you" by "nobody" in verse 44 when he'd been using those terms ("anybody", "everybody", "nobody", etc.) generally all across the chapter. He would've specified if he meant to narrow the scope of the statement, and since he didn't, the statement should be taken generally.
So God doesn’t choose the Jews who refuses to learn from Him first but he can choose a gentile atheist who doesn’t learn from him? 🤷♂️ 😂
You did a great job of using context to help understand the meaning of the passage - I recently looked at this and can see the same concepts are seen all through John 4-8. Concise and effective explanation. Thanks for making this!
Thanks for watching!
Much appreciate the reading of scripture. God bless you for giving defense for the faith
You are very welcome. Thanks for watching!
@@GreatLightStudios look forward to hearing more on this John 6!!
“Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me-“ Important to cross reference this one too to John 10. Who is it that has heard from the Father? Who is it that hears the Father?
John 10:3-4 for starters will answer that question. 😊 I only listened to the first ten minutes, so I’m not sure if you touched base with that. But answering the question of who it is that is hearing and learning from the Father, in context, is also very important.
I didn't make it to John 10, although that would fit very well within this conversation. Maybe next time!
@@GreatLightStudios id like to hear what you think! The book of John so beautifully fits together. God bless.
I'm so glad the misunderstandings of Calvin are being corrected by so many great believers and teachers. God is using you to protect people from a strong dark dogma, full of poor exegesis. Keep making content like this!
John 6 is simple.
Jesus confirms he is here to do his father’s will. Ie “all those the father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down to not do my will, but the fathers will, and this is the will of him who sent me that I shall not lose any one he has sent me, but raise them up on the last day. “
Then he goes on to define what the fathers will is. VS 40. “For it is my father’s will, that everyone who looks to the son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day”.
Ie those who believe in the Son are the ones who his father gives him, and he raises up on the last day.
So later in the chapter where he says “and no one comes to me unless the father draws them” is a reference back to the previous definition of who are the people that the father gives him? Those who believe in Him, Jesus. He is simply re-stating what he has already said.
So who can come? Only those who the father sends him, who’s that? Only those who believe in the son. Why can’t they come? Because they didn’t believe, Jesus even says later. “And yet there are some of you who still do not believe”.(So they can’t come).
This is how it reads without a Calvinistic lense.
Yes yet you neglect chapter 1 and 11 of John's gospel and Ephessians 1 and 2. Man is created by God as his imager with volition sin enslaved it the Bible calls that being blind, deaf mute,invalid and dead those are the conditions equated with being out of God's favour and under his wrath and each are addressed by God in Christ. The Calvinism I follow does not deny the sovereignty of God over who is brought into his family yet holds people responsible for their choices.
@@ThembaMaselane and you missed Ephesians 1 :13 “when you heard the message of truth the gospel of salvation when YOU believed, you were marked with him a seal the promised Holy Spirit.”
I always appreciate my non Calvinist brothers in the faith. Some brothers like Jordan engage in a respectful responde. I thank God for those in the kingdom who engage in such Biblical responses with lots of manners and show humility and respect. Can we agree that the core of the debate or the difference between The non Calvinist and Calvinist is what enable us to come to Christ ? or the order between what comes first - Regeneration or Faith ? May The Lord bless you and your ministry brother.
2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
Thank you for all that you do Jordan! God bless you! 🙏
Thanks Mary!
Jordan Is getting closer to believing the Bible. It would be awesome If he would glorify the sovereign, almighty God, the potter of all creation as we read in Romans, Isaiah and Jeremiah.
What a blessing to believe the true and inspiring word of God, the sovereign and almighty God is capable of setting apart his peaple in the womb as we see in the Bible, we could read verses like Jeremiah 1:5 or Galatians 1:15
Galatians 1:15
[15]But when he [c]who had set me apart [d]before I was born,(4) and who [e]called me by his grace,
Footnotes
(4) Greek set me apart from my mother's womb
Cross-references
[c]: Acts 13:2; Rom 1:1
[d]: Isa 49:1, 5; Jer 1:5; Lk 1:15
[e]: Gal 1:6
(ESV)
It is pretty simple if you are not trapped on the far ends of the debate.
“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone (this is not
limited by the text) who beholds the Son and believes (who defines and judges brief? God! A mere claim of faith does not save God does) in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
”This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me (those He judges as believing/having faith) I lose nothing (those that are FOREKNOWN, are PREDESTINED to finish the race) but raise it up on the last day.
Some are kept at a distance by parables, but then come to faith after the resurrection, so they were not left in damnation because they were not elected.
"The people that God gave to Jesus are the people that were already God's people. They were the people that were worshipping God, and therefore they do not represent a case of God taking the devil's people who are unbelievers and transforming them into believers." - Steve Gregg debating James White
Hi everyone.
I’m not too familiar with all the points of Calvinism but I have listened to people like Jeff Durbin and James White, who I think do a lot of good work btw, but there is a certain level of pride to believing that God chose you specifically for salvation, not that God in his love chose mercy to everyone who did not deserve it, but that you for some reason were one of the few deserving of undeserved mercy from God. I think for this reason Calvinist should humble themselves a bit.
Most people I have spoken to that believe in the absolute sovereignty of God in all things don't have any pride in the fact that God "chose" them, but are humbled as can be knowing that they are fully deserving of his wrath but by God's free Grace are granted repentance. Remember in John 15:16 Jesus spoke to his disciples and stated "You did not choose me, but I chose you." I certainly don't think the disciples were prideful but much like "Calvinist's" I think they were eternally humbled that a perfect God would choose the lowest the raise up the highest.
@@graham5990
So which people don’t believe in the absolute sovereignty of God ,
Do tell, who are these people ?
And as for pride, that title would clearly be held by your average Calvinist
@@markshaneh Well if you believe in the COMPLETE sovereignty of God you would need to hold to a calvinist view point. If you believe you are the one choosing God then God is no longer Sovereign over all things and some things are just out of his control. I don't like to say calvinist as it start things off on the wrong foot but I tend to lean more towards the complete sovereignty of God myself as it is pointed out so many times throughout scripture. I am not prideful but extremely humbled and in no way do I look down on anyone or think God "chose" me because of something special I have ever done in my life as I look at myself as Paul (chief of all sinners) you have no idea how hard prayer is sometimes recalling things I have done and said in my life but once again as Paul wrote (I try to forget the things that are behind and reach forward to the things ahead)
What I have noticed in these debates between brothers is the ones on the side of the free will of man side of things get very nasty (as evidenced by your very snide and very condescending "and as for pride, that would clearly be held by your average Calvinist" comment). You see I look at the Calvinist/Arminian debate as nothing more than a difference in theology. I love Voddie Baucham dearly and love listening to him, but he is on the side of a-mil whereas my eschatological beliefs tend to lean more towards the pre-mil side of things but just because we differ on theology doesn't mean I have to dislike him or speak ill of him. MacArthur and Sproul were dear friends but has several disagreements on theological matters, but never did they speak bad about one another.
Brother as long as you have Christ and the Gospel correct anything after that is just theological interpretation and as far as I see things we are brothers in Christ and shouldn't spend so much time speaking ill of another brother but we should be lifting each-other up and edifying one another. If you care to have a discussion on why I believe what I believe I'm more than happy to have that conversation, but not if you're just going to belittle me for what I believe to be true in scripture.
@@graham5990 so if a person believes in the complete sovereignty of God he has to believe that God has to be limited to man’s understanding? Philosophy cannot decipher how God can create man with free will and still be completely sovereign.
So it insists that it has to be either or. Like God is not capable ie. He is limited and is incapable of doing both. Brother, have you considered the low sovereignty view that a Calvinist paints on the character of God if God not only decreed some to believe and most to not believe, whereby some will be saved and most will become fuel for hell, all for His glory. I know that’s not the way it’s preached from the Calvinist pulpit, but that’s the reality that is believed but not explained.
But if you believe that God provided a way for all mankind to be saved, yet some receive while most reject, then the high view of God’s sovereignty in established as the blame is on man for rejecting and not on God.
I know that emphasis is put on receiving salvation by Calvinist’s as if receiving is a work, but that is false. Please allow an example.
If you found yourself in a situation where you suddenly were not able to provide for your family due to health issues due to an accident
You are about to lose everything then a friend shows up at your door, he knocks and when you open he explains that he heard of your situation and decided to write you a check for a sum that will carry you until you get back on your feet. He extends his hand with a check on his hand. You have three choices, receive, reject, or stare at him. But neither action you take can add or take away from the gift of grace that he is offering to you. He worked for every penny that is represented on the check.
There are many things that God showed us that we cannot know the exact how it was possible but because we experience them we believe. His creation for instance.
We cannot explain past was in a given, but we don’t disbelieve because of the lack of explanation.
In the same way God displays the mystery of His love for all mankind through his provision.
@@Mandbec Very well thought out and thank you for being so kind in your response (sad that I even need to say that). I have never heard it explained in that way before and it makes sense, but trust me this is the one thing I have wrestled with more than any other since I began reading scripture and theology in general. My belief I hold to is that God created everything you see before you and not a molecule on this planet is out of alignment with his overall plan. If God can do all these things surely if he truly wanted every soul saved then every soul would indeed be saved. When I have these theological discussions though I don't like to boil it down to philosophy and analogy's, (although your analogy with the money makes a lot of sense) but rather I go to the final authority in all things God's word.
I first look at Ephesians 2:1 which starts with "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins" and goes to verses 4-5 which state 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved. So we see here we are spiritually dead (and a dead person is capable of nothing because he is in fact dead.) and it goes on to say that it takes an act of God which is "making us alive with Christ". It states in John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. The key word in that passage is the word CAN which is a word of ability. It does not say no one may come because we are called to preach to all the nations far and wide so all may come, but only those God give the ear to hear and are spiritually made alive CAN come because without that act we don't have the ability to choose him as in our natural state Paul states in Colossians 1 that we are enemies of God.
You can point to where Jesus told his disciples "You did not choose me, but I chose you." We can go to 2 separate verses in 2 Timothy verse 20 which states In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. Similar to that verse there is whole section of Romans 9 dedicated to the subject verses 16-24 - 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
So it is crystal clear here that God creates us for his purpose and who are we to say what God does is right or wrong. As it states in scripture "as high as the heavens are above the earth so are my ways above your ways." We also see that last part of verse 24 it says "whom he also CALLED" Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice" so only those that are his will listen to the call.
We also see in 2 Timothy 2:25 - Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth. so we see once again "in the hope God will GRANT them repentance because these things need to be given to us by God it unfortunately is not a choice we get to either make or not make is what I get from reading scripture.
Romans 8:28-30 - 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Then further on in that chapter in verse 33 it states "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?" Once again God's CHOSEN.
Whether you agree or disagree I appreciate you reading what I laid out, but I also had a free will outlook on the bible, but through much reading and studying I just find that in scripture the exact opposite is laid before us. Either way you are my brother and I will pray for you and hope to see you on the better side of life in the Glory God has in store for us brother.
Yes you're explaining this correctly. Galatians 3:24 "...the Law has become our tutor in order to lead us to Christ so that we may be justified by faith"
John 5:46 "for if you had believed Moses you would believe Me (Jesus), for he wrote about Me"
Sorry, but you have not understood this, nor do you understand the gospel. The law does not lead anyone to Jesus. You, like all the fake christians that fill all the apostate churches do not at all understand saved by grace through faith.
@seedsower678 You don't believe either Galatians or John then?
@@adventures8977 ,...It is not that I dont believe Galatians or John, it is that I understand them as well as the gospel and Christianity of the Bible.
Again, the real problem is you, like all those snared into all the apostate churches do understand saved by grace through faith. Do you understand that what the spiritually dead and blind refer to as "Calvinism" is the gospel and Christianity of the Bible?
@seedsower678 As I said in my initial comment, "saved by grace through faith" is exactly what Galatians 3:24 describes.
@@adventures8977 ,....And as I said, you do not understand what saved by grace through faith means. The guy in this video has no idea what the gospel is and has not explained this correctly.
Also, you failed to answer my question about Calvinism.
Great job! I would add that another thing needing to be emphasized is the "how" in this verse. How does the Father draw? This passage clearly shows that it is through His Word. Calvinism approaches this "drawing" as mystical, and attributes it to the Holy Spirit, of Whom drawing is never mentioned in scripture.
It’s amazing how Calvinists have to superimpose beliefs on Scripture to justify their beliefs. Nowhere in scripture does it say the HS draws anyone. He leads us into truth…
The Holy Spirit creates faith through the word and man receives Christ through this faith, this is how the Father draws men to himself.
@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 the Holy Spirit "creates" faith? Where did you get that idea from? Faith is not some mystical substance. It is simply "belief" or "trust". You exercise it every time you sit in a chair. It is no different!
@@philaardsma7058
Sinner doesn't want to exercise faith in Christ until the Holy Spirit creates contrition through the law and faith through the gospel, natural man is unable to receive spiritual truth unless the Holy Spirit enables him to do so.
"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life." John 6:63
@@heavenbound7-7-7-7
First of all the passage you reference in 1 Cor. Is taken out of context. Paul is talking to the carnal believers in Corinth and repremanding them for their imaturity. Carnal = natural in this instance. They are not unbelievers who cannot understand the deep things of God. They are carnal believers that are not mature enough to understand deeper doctine. Read chapt 3.
Second of all, my bible says that life is given to those that believe and not the other way around (as you seem to be claiming).
but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20:31 KJV
Actually, you should have attacked Jeff’s third point. That’s the one that’s unbiblical because it assumes that only some people are being drawn. This is also the common fallacy that James White trips into here. They say the ONE who is drawn is lifted up. Jesus teaches that ALL are drawn, and the ones who listen, hear, believe (there’s 13 such statements by Jesus in John 6) are the ones who are lifted up.
Part of the reasoning is that v37 says "All those the Father gives me will come to me" which raises the question: what is the "giving" that precedes the coming to Christ?
It’s also important to note, regardless of one’s conclusion of what the giving is, that John 6 never states that all who come are given by the Father.
@@amos6235 "depending" on the conclusion, but not "regardless" of the conclusion. What do you conclude the giving is?
@@markwebb7576 it’s God’s judgement of who have truly surrendered to him. Those are the ones God gives over to Jesus. God draws all men, some respond, those are the ones God gives to Jesus.
@@amos6235 uhh…are you suggesting there are some who get to Jesus that bypass God?
Thank you Jordan. You’ve done a great job of putting this verse in context of it’s immediate context as well as the context of this section of John, which brings out what Jesus is saying here with true clarity. I also think that there is a dispensational aspect to this as Jesus later said to his disciples, “no one comes to the Father except thru me”. Without context and taking into consideration the dispensation, this appears to be a contradiction (in Calvinism it is!). Here in chap 6 Jesus is speaking specifically to Jews, some who knew the Father and now would be drawn to Jesus since He is now here. Later He would be speaking to those who already knew Him and knew Him well but wanted Jesus to show them the Father. In either case, it is a drawing from those who had been following Jesus or the Father already who are then drawn. In neither case is it random unconditional election or irresistible drawing of random people.
Grateful for your work. I tend to fall more in line with a Calvinistic soteriology, in a much softer form. I do appreciate your exegesis of the text. Enjoy your channel.
@@claytonliles2085 thanks a lot!
You border on Palegianism!
John said, “I write this to you so that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah!” John 20:31
So, John 6 was written to prove Jesus is the Messiah.
In context John begins chapter 6 with Jesus performing miracles to prove Jesus is the Messiah.
Jesus had said, "If you believed Moses you would believe me, for he wrote about me!"
John 5:46
So In John 6 Jesus is speaking about people who were believers who belonged to God the Father and who were looking for the Messiah WHO WAS TO COME.
The Father "gives" these believers to Jesus, the Messiah, who they were looking for.
Jesus says in John 6:65,
“This is why I TOLD YOU (referring back to and INTERPRETING VERSE 44) that no one can come to me (has the ability) unless the FATHER ENABLES them!”
The Loving Father (1 John 4:8) enables, by grace, everyone to have the ability to come freely; not compelled like Calvinists teach.
“The GRACE of God has appeared that offers salvation to all men!” Titus 2:11 (See 1 Corinthians 15:10)
“Jesus said, the work of God is this, to believe in the one he has sent!” John 6:29
Jesus said, “When I am lifted up, I will draw (not compel, John 6:65) ALL men to myself!" John 12:32
So, all people, Jew and Gentile, have the ability to be free to choose, not compelled.
Calvinists cannot answer why Adam sinned and fell from grace when he was created “good” and in a perfect environment in the Spirit and in communion with God.
But Adam used his free will to fall from the grace of God (and so will Christians who use their free will to stop believing).
But this is the foundation of their so called” logical system” which they read into the Bible.
The greatest creation of God is a human created in the image of God with the mystery of free will which Calvinism takes away and makes people puppets who do not decide their own salvation destiny.
Man is "dead in sin" separated from God, but God in His grace, which is GOD WORKING IN US (See Philippians 2:12-13, Hebrews 4:12, Romans 1:16, John 16.8), energizes men to exercise their free will to turn from being dead in sin to alive in Christ!
Using their Calvinist glasses, the Calvinist reads Ephesians to say,
“God chose us (TO BE) in Christ before the creation of the world!” Ephesians 1:4 ?
No! It says, “God chose US IN CHRIST before the creation of the world TO BE HOLY and blameless in His sight!”
Jesus is the Only chosen ONE. Luke 9:35
Verse 13 says we became chosen IN CHRIST when we chose to believe by the grace of God working in us, and then we are regenerated.
(See John 20:31 where believing comes before life)!
The order is:
Grace -> repentance/faith -> new life in Christ
A slam dunk reason why Calvinism is a heresy, is because of their doctrine of the atonement which says GOD the Father poured out his wrath and damned GOD HIS Son, and THE SECOND PERSON OF THE TRINITY WAS CUT OFF FROM THE FIRST PERSON!
(SEE RC Sproul, Piper, McArthur, etc) Jeff Durbin?
This SPLITS THE TRINITY and/or divides Christ into two persons which is the Nestorian heresy.
This atonement heresy was not taught until Calvin came along. (Christus Victor was from the beginning.)
Calvinists have INNOCENT JESUS being condemned when Proverbs 17:15 says this is an abomination of justice.
Plus, Calvinists call their monster God “loving” who creates people and predestines most of them to go to hell with no chance to believe and be saved.
This includes babies in the womb. If not, then it would be best to let people abort all babies so they would not go to hell.
Plus, Esau was NOT a reprobate. Read in the Old Testament Genesis chapter 33. Esau was saved!
It is a Prodigal Son story where Jacab looks at Esau and sees “THE FACE OF GOD.”
So, there goes Romans 9 for the Calvinists.
In context God was electing the line to Jesus through Jacob instead of Esau. This is not an election to salvation.
Ironically, Calvinism is the doctrine of demons, not grace!
Calvinists love Calvinism, because they were chosen and to hell with everyone else!
Pride! The number one sin which we all have!
God doesn’t love everyone. He said so.
He came to save his people, not whoever.
ELECT
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man *IS* come to seek and to save that which *WAS* lost.
John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isaiah 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
@aletheia8054
“God doesn’t love everyone. He said so.”
-Where?
@@christianuniversalist Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Google: “ancient Hebrew idioms in the Bible”.
Also, Romans 5:8.
God blessed Esau the man and Jacob reconciled with him. Esau in Malachi refers to the Esau’s descendants (Two nations are in your womb), the Edomites, and was said by God long after Esau the man was dead. God told the Israelites in Deut 23, “Do not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother.” It was only after Edom attacked the Israelites hundreds of years after Esau’s death that God through Malachi pronounced his hatred on “Esau” the nation. See Mal 1:4: “Edom will build, but I will throw down.”
If that’s your only reference you should seriously reconsider such a radical position.
John 6:45 points to Isaiah 54, Jeremiah 31, and Ezekiel 36 ... in Is 54, we learn the Lord teaches his Children; In Jeremiah 31 we learn that a New Covenant will be established and the Law of God will be written on the hearts of His people; and the Prophet Ezekiel teaches how a person learns from the Father without actually seeing the Father (John 6:46). In Ezekiel Ch 36 you get the specific formula for regeneration: all actions of God ... He will cleanse you, give you a new heart, and then a new spirit. In case you are confused by what he is saying, Ezekiel then states this more clearly when he then states that your heart of stone will be replaced with a heart of flesh, then His Spirit will be put within you, then He will cause you to walk in His statutes and to obey His rules. (Ez 36: 22-32).
So i wonder if Jeff will see this and do a response?
I highly doubt it but if so that would be great!
The Patristic witness rejects any calvinistic interpretation of this passage or any other passage of Scripture. Calvinism is a relatively NEW theology read into Scripture. Did the Church really have their doctrine wrong for 1500 yrs?
To be fair Augustine did believe in predestination unto salvation however I agree, Calvinism is ridiculous
Amen! Keep on keeping on!! Maybe we can collab in the future!
I really believe this is the correct way to understand John 6:44
It answers so many questions and helps clarify many of the other things Jesus said in the Gospels and the Book of Acts.
Thanks for putting it out there Jordan! 🙏
Great stuff bro. Take that Jeff. Lol
We still need to come back to answering the other pillar texts of Calvinism. Ephesians 1+2, Romans 5+9, Genesis 50:20, John 6+17, etc. We have much to cover. Lol
Thanks Josh! And yes we do! I have a handful of video ideas we could do. Lots more to cover for sure.
@@GreatLightStudios I’m here for it 🍿
A question I have about Ephesians 1 is regarding the interpretation that the “we” and “us” are actually Paul and the apostles not Paul and other believers. Hearing that interpretation was sooooo crazy because it made crystal clear sense I had never seen it until it was pointed out! BUT my question is how was Paul and the other apostles then chosen IN HIM to be holy and blameless and were predestined to adoption? We have always been saying that it is BELIEVERS who are chosen and predestined and that no one who is not IN CHRIST has any of these things. But now I see that Paul in context was simply referring to himself and the other apostles, but then how was Paul and the other apostles “in Christ” before they were born? I’m just actually still confused now because although the “we” and “us” being the apostles interpretation seems SO incredibly clear, I’m also somehow more confused now at the same time with this verse.
If you want to know the character and attributes of God , he is the same in the Old and New Testament . Can we look at Ezekiel 36:23-28
Duet 30:6
Heb8:10
Per Rom 8:29-30, the process of being drawn to God begins with 'foreknowledge' (Those whom God foreknew he - predestined - called - justified - glorified). What is it God foreknew? This question is explicitly answered in this very Chapter of scripture. Consider Jhn 6:64, "Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him." Note Jesus KNEW FROM THE BEGINNING.... who did and did not BELIEVE. He then directly links this FOREKNOWLEDGE to identification of those who would be 'drawn / called / enabled' by the Father to come to him in the very next verse. Consider Jhn 6:65, "He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” Therefore, per Jesus' direct statements in these two passages, the person who is FOREKNOWN TO BELIEVE will be 'drawn / called / enabled' by the Father to respond to the message/Spirit of the Gospel of Christ. These same did God know, predestine and call from before the foundation of the world.
Concerning Romans 8:29, I have heard 'foreknew' being defined 2 different ways. First, is 'to know the future'. This is what I always believed, and believe that God does know the future. So, I don't have an issue with that definition. Buy when I heard the other definition, everything made more sense. It could mean 'those he knew in the past'. Basically, Old Covenant believers in God. This makes more sense because of the phrase 'he might be the first born among many bretheren'. Regardless of how that word is defined, I am convinced that faith precedes predestination in this verse. It doesn't say they are predestined to be saved, or to have faith. But to be conformed to the image of Christ. So, people of faith are predestined.
As for John 6, one big assumption people make is that the drawing is effectual. The argument made in this video and by Dr Flowers would probably have no issue with the idea that all drawn come to the Son, based on their view that the verse is speaking of believers. Because they believed the father, they believed the Son. But even if that's not the case, I would argue that all are drawn by God (thus enabled) but people can still reject him.
Yes, people who responded to the prophets and the Law those were who listened to the Father and then they were directed to Jesus. YWHW did not select them arbitrarily, they selected themselves by not listening to the Father based on their own choice.
I came across a new argument (for me) for Regeneration preceding faith. When Jesus tells Nicodemus that (in summary) the Spirit comes and goes like the wind and we don't know where.... I feel that explanation wouldn't make any sense if the Spirit only went where there was faith waiting for it... and it would seem that the Spirit would be limited by the faith of man... I would be interested to see a good response... John 3:5-6. It seems to make more sense from the reformed perspective.
Yep
No! Faith is the cause of our being born again. Regeneration is the work of sanctification by the Holy Spirit on a person who has been born again.
@@larrybedouin2921 who produces faith?
For the most part, I agree with this. I feel like the equivalent statements may need to be expounded more thoroughly. I was confused on how & why we should equate those statements.
I completely agree with your link to Gal 3:7. Those with faith are the sons of Abraham. The “deeds” of Abraham spoken of in John 8 are obeying God and having faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Gal 3:8 says God preached THE GOSPEL to Abraham.
Additionally, you should use Gal 3:26, not Gal 3:7 to see how one becomes a son of God. Gal 3:7 is how to be a son of Abraham.
Galatians 3:26 (NASB95) For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
I think one of the better arguments for John 6:44 is to keep reading on to John 6:64-65. Jesus disciples start grumbling that what he said in v44 was confusing, so Jesus explains what He meant in v44 in v64-65.
John 6:64-65 (NASB95) 64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
Jesus knew who did not believe and said for that reason (they did not believe) He said they couldn’t come to the father. This statement makes the drawing of 6:44 dependent upon faith.
Abraham has a greater role in John 6 than many realize. Twice in this chapter, Jesus & his students quote from the Old Testament to support his teaching (v31 & v45).
John 6:31 (NASB95) “Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’”
John 6:45 (NASB95) “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
John 6:53 (NASB95) So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
Often v31 is cross referenced with Neh 9:15, and v45 is cross referenced with Isa 54:13. However, you can actually cross reference BOTH passages to Neh 9:20.
Nehemiah 9:15 (NASB95) “You provided bread from heaven for them for their hunger, You brought forth water from a rock for them for their thirst, And You told them to enter in order to possess The land which You swore to give them.
Nehemiah 9:20 (NASB95) “You gave Your good Spirit to instruct them, Your manna You did not withhold from their mouth, And You gave them water for their thirst.
In fact, Neh 9:20 goes on to speak to hunger & thirst (just as Jesus says eat my flesh and drink my blood) as well as being taught of the Lord, whereas Isa 54:13 only speaks of being taught by God.
The reason this is interesting is because the context in Neh 9:7-8 shows why Abraham was chosen (elect). It makes a critical statement about Abraham’s faith:
Nehemiah 9:7-8 (NASB95) 7 “You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham. 8 “You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite-- To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.
God FOUND Abraham’s heart faithful, He didn’t cause or give him faith!
So the context referenced by Jesus in Neh 9 is that of Abraham becoming elect or chosen because God FOUND faith in his unregenerate heart.
Wow bro, you put a lot into that post. Gonna make me read Nehemiah now 😁.
Thanks for taking the time to add the full verse reference in there. It makes for a long post but it does make it easier to read (since I can read them there without having to go look then up).
This interpretation (as opposed to some other non-Calvinist interpretations) lets us bypass the main arguments you’ll hear from Calvinists on these verses:
1) “Draw” means “drag” (A: That’s great. Those that have faith in the Father are dragged/compelled towards faith in Jesus. No problem here.)
2) The chain from drawing to coming to being raised up is unbreakable. (Since the drawing requires a “synergistic” learning and listening and the subject doing the coming and being lifted up are those who have faith in Christ and abide in Him, then once again there is no problem.)
Yes, it removes any reason to even bring something like Calvinism into the picture.
Your explanation seems to make it sound like , "only those who were following the O.T. teachings with truthful understanding and faith could be open to the truth's of Christ's teachings in the N.T." Am I misunderstanding?
Excellent video. I have done quite a lot of study on this as well and my conclusion is very similar to yours. You mentioned the sheep of Jesus in chapter 10. I thought I would add a little bit to this. Generally speaking, I believe it is important to understand this in terms of transition and covenant transfer. In the Old Covenant, all of the people of Israel were Israelites, though not all were truly saved. The New Covenant would be composed of only those who were repentant believers. John's ministry emphasized this and those who repented and believed were transferred to following Jesus. As for the sheep of John 10, under the Old Covenant, all of Israel were the sheep of the Lord in one sense, but those who were believers were transferred to Jesus as the Shepherd of Israel. In one sense, he took them out of the old covenant and transferred them to the new covenant and a saving relationship with Christ. The rest would remain under that old covenant dispensation which could not save. The unbelieving Jews would later be judged and have the kingdom taken from them.
Calvinism is just an attack on God's ability to create people who can/do actually love Him, I have become convinced. Very much like what we see in the book of Job.
People who don't/can't love their fellow humans (narcissistic sociopaths in the modern jargon) are running the show, and constantly venting their anti-human sentiments, and disbelief that humans can love anything but what they do (themselves).
Answer the Question : We love God because he....... So now answer that to romans 9 :11-13
ANSWER: He first loved us. therefore we never love him first
@@dustymar4341 - How could we love Him first? He made us, we didn't make ourselves.
Try to be at least vaguely logical, I suggest.
Here's a question for you. We can read this near the beginning of the Book;
"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."
Was He right, or wrong?
I don't firmly adhere either to Calvinism or Arminianism (I think it's a bit more complex than either one on its own portrays things to be), but to reduce the "drawing" in verse 44 down to primarily a person's disposition towards scripture (or Moses or anything else you mentioned) and then focus in on that at least puts us in danger of taking God out of that equation altogether. Regardless of the mechanics of how that "drawing" works (or "granting/giving" in verse 65), God is a direct and primary agent in that process, (rather than that agent consisting only in someone's response or disposition). Jesus wouldn't have put it the way he did if that wasn't the case.
As for your hypothesis about how the mechanics of the "drawing" work, the mention in other chapters of John of things like the writings of Moses, knowing the Father and other such things also aren't ever implied to be the only driving force behind that "drawing". The idea that the Father teaches or enlightens people in a more direct way (rather than just through them reading the Old Testament Scriptures) isn't one that's strictly Calvinistic, either. You'll find some Arminian authors talking about both of those ways of "drawing" as being in play here.
Lastly, under-emphasizing God's role in this also tarnishes a great verse for assurance. Since God is portrayed as the primary agent in the "drawing" that takes place, we can know that, regardless of HOW it works, if we've come to Christ (and all the fruit is there that shows we're in him) or even feel drawn to Christ, that God is still at work in us. It's the work of God, first and foremost.
You also are completely confused and do not understand the truth, the gospel, nor the Christianity of the Bible. What the Biblically illiterate call "Calvinism" is the one and only truth, gospel, and Christianity of the Bible. Anyone who does not firmly understand and hold to this ("Calvinism") is simply not a Christian.
Great explanation. If you treat Joyhn 6:44 in isolation which is a bad, there will be nothing but confusion.
If Jn.6:44 doesn’t apply to gentiles just because Jesus was speaking to His disciples/Jews, then perhaps Jn.15:15(just one example) also applies only to the disciples; they are His friends and not us His followers.
So you’re saying “God chooses you once you’ve learned from him” and not that God chooses you and then you learn from Him?😅
It’s as stupid as it sounds. But the dude doesn’t see it.
Semi pelagianism blinded him.
@@josephalvinalmedatv8 God is blinded him
Yeah Non-Calvinist backward interpretation is dumb.
He doesn't answer 😅
This is also a Calvinist needs to know because when you inevitably paint them into a corner of their heresy, they will argue that faith is a work. Well Ephesians 2: 8-9 tells you otherwise, in that they are separate from each other.
Remember, Dispensationalism is your friend, and yes it is doctrine, the very word is mentioned 4 times in scripture:
Ephesians 1:10
Ephesians 3:2
Colossians 1:25
1 Corinthians 9:17
If you don't see "dispensation" in those verses, then throw out whatever translation you're using and pick up a KJV and stick to that only. The KJV is the only translation that follows the strict masoretic rules of translating from original scripture.
Have you ever done Philippians 1:29 ... For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
I don't have a video on Philippians 1:29 yet, but hopefully I can get to it in the near future!
Thank you for another Non-Calvinist explanation. I agree with most of what you presented. However, between the 2:05-2:13 mark, you say No one comes to Jesus unless the Father chooses to draw him. The text most definitely does not say that, and this is also the Calvinist's mistake. John 6:44 says that "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;". Therefore, you can exegete that those who are drawn can, or are able, to come. It does not say that all who are drawn will come. So, the most you can say is that those who come were drawn. You cannot say, and should not infer, that those who don't come were not drawn (see John 12:32). Definitely those who had listened and learned from the Father came. Since they came they were drawn. However, we can't say that those who don't come are not being drawn or that the Father only chooses some to draw. How does the Father draw all? See Romans 1:16-20.
What the spiritually dead and blind call "Calvinism" is the truth, the gospel, and the Christianity of the Bible. Anyone who does not understand what Calvin understood is not a Christian. Your freewill gospel is a 100% false manmade fraud. It in another gospel of the accursed of God. Repent!
And thank you for your gentle, nonconfrontational tone
I'm glad this came off as non-confrontational and gentle. That's a priority for me and I know I don't always walk in that, but I certainly try to.
Honestly, you don't even need to go to other chapters to establish the obvious: God draws to Jesus those who hear from the Father. It's right there in the very context of John 6 and, like you pointed out, in verse 45 and onwards. It's really hard to understand why this text is even controversial to begin with. God draws to Jesus those who hears the Father. Jesus point was that they didn't hear the Father (like they claimed), otherwise they would be drawn to him. Seems simple enough.
One thing that is completely absent from the Calvinist interpretation is a good chunk of John 6 is about the Eucharist.
You mean common communion. The Roman Eucharist from paganism.
Sweet, we read the verses out of order. Jumping all over the text instead of walking through it also. We also don’t start at the beginning and walk through it
I believe the root question has to do with the word drawn. Is it effectual or not. I don't believe it is. First, I believe the whole crowd was drawn to him. But many of them left in unbelief. It is possible that those that left believed later. But John 12:32, Jesus said he would draw all people to himself.
John 6:44 never says that unbelievers aren't drawn. The drawing enables them, but doesn’t make them believe!
15:06 You said "what would decide if you were a child of Abraham? If you believe."
Apparently you missed the part where Abraham was chosen and elect of God BEFORE Abraham produced offspring in the faith. Abraham DIDN'T choose God, God chosen Abraham. Actually, Abraham proved demonstratiably from the texts that his works were not in belief, bht disbelief, and taking matters into his own hands against the promises of God.
Yes, only the elect, the chosen and called of God, will be "children of Abraham." Why? Because not everyone is called.
Yeah, I guess Abram, in Gen. 12:4 was just preprogrammed and like a puppet on a string departed as the Lord had spoken to him.
But wait, let's not forget: Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
That's right, "by faith...he/Abraham obeyed."
@patrickg.7668 Your answer is robotic, as is all Exhaustive Self Determinists. Like a puppet on a string, you will always, always, circle all your answers back to the glory of mans imaginary autonomous free will.
@patrickg.7668 Faith is given by God to believe. No man generates faith from his flesh, that's called "imaginations." Faith is a noun, not an imagination.
@ManassehJones Hello, that is only if your system is true. If it were true, then I'd have no other choice in what to reply because it's all determined, correct?
Additionally, all of what you say is determined as well. If you wish to have a free thinking discussion, let me know.
Have a wonderful day, sir. Yes, I freely said that, by the grace of God(?),YES, but freely it was.
@patrickg.7668 Systems are for the children of the world. The elect are servants in the kingdom of God, obeying the Spirit of God, not your man made-up systems of unregenerates
Do you know any theologians and commentaries who state this in the same way?
Understand what you’re saying. The best Calvinist response would simply be Luke 19:10 where didn’t come to seek and save the “already believing” but the lost, or Mark 2:17 where the sick need a physician not a healthy person (your Godfearers), or Luke 5:32 (Matt. 9:13) where he came to call sinners not the righteous.
Paul echoes the same sentiment for Christ’s earthly mission in 1 Tim. 1:15.
It would be granted that in Luke 5 that the distinction is between the “self righteous” but even in granting that it cannot be that even the Pharisees are not the objects of Jesus’ call. He absolutely invited them as sinners as it was his purpose to do so because his mission was pointed at those who were lost, not the ones who already believed as those who are well don’t need a doctor.
Your point would literally controvert Christ’s stated mission. The definition of “sheep” is also too narrow, for having heard and learned from him before presumes that no one could see Jesus in this period unless he was already a believer… no new converts unless they already believe? Jesus explanation was that they were not his sheep and this condition is what kept them from belief. Your take does not make sense of this.
John 6 is simply CHRIST explaining the relationship between HIM and THE FATHER, but calvinists of course make it about them and it's just so ridiculous . Calvinists like the pharrissees think they're saved because of who they are, who they're born as.
I think we split too many hairs. I've been to a lot of school, and I just remain unconvinced that the answer will be found in the obscure details for grammar/syntax. I'm not saying it's unimportant, otherwise I wasted a whole lot of time, rather, the language structure supports the translation, but you've just got to read it. The Bible isn't trying to trick us and only the one with the secret decoder ring gets the truth. The Bible is speaking in plain language. You have to have the Calvinist worldview before you read the text to come to their conclusions in many more passages than not. Calvinism, Dispensationalism, X-ism, Y-ism... the Bible isn't meant to require you to hold your mouth just right and cross your eyes to get to the truth, it is written to reveal the truth to us. Just my 2¢
It's a good explanation and I agree. However I don't think it needs to be even this expansive. The Greek "elkô" (to draw) most commonly means to drag. This speaks of a sinner struggling to leave a sinful life and come to Christ, rather than a simple "switching on" of faith by God as the Calvinists suggest.
The Greek is ἑλκύω ἕλκω or helkuō helkō.
Calvinists always jump on that drag definition but when you look at the use it isn't to drag forcibly against your will--it is to pull like drawing a sword from a sheath or to pull in a net which has been cast. There's also other words also used in the OT and NT which mean to draw, to attract to, or to come near. So while helkuō helkō literally means to move something from one place to another in a tangible manner and not just attract something, it doesn't imply to forcibly move someone against their will. Jesus did use that word in Matthew 11, and it is ἁρπάζω/harpazō and He used it to directly contrast God's/the Kingdom of Heaven's way versus those who harpazō. Ironically, this makes the Calvinists the enemy of the Kingdom.
But you didn't really make any arguments that contradict calvanism. You described basis for when people on either side of this predestined eternity path they will walk in life reveal them selves. But you did not make any arguments against why calvinism isn't biblical. The Prophets, Moses, and the people who walked with God in the old testiment had faith. This was evidence of the work of God in their hearts externally and internally.
Hi Jordan,
Would be great if you went through in a video what Calvinists call the "Golden Chain": Those God forknew (the elect) He predestined, and those God predestined He called, and those God called He justified and those God justified He WILL also glorify, according to what I have heard from Calvinists. I don't fully know myself how to understand this.
Christ love,
Peter
"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."
- Romans 8:29-30
Christ love,
Peter
The word foreknew simply means to know before. Instead of thinking of it in terms of election of individuals from the foundation of the world (be it according to calvinist or arminian understanding of such) think of it as referring to the people that God walked with prior to Paul's writing, that is, the Old Testament saints. The point Paul is making is that the reason we can be certain that God will work everything for the good of those who love him is because he has done it before. Those he knew before, he also predestined. Those he predestined, he also called (notice the word called showing up here seems redundant if simply referring back to "those who love God and are called" more generally, but makes sense if referring to a specific subset of God lovers that formerly walked with him on earth).
Hi! It would be great if Jordan covered that topic! In the meantime, maybe this will help you out. I'd like to note that the predestination in Romans 8 is for adoption, not salvation. Adoption is not the process by which Christians are made children of God, we are made children of God when we believe. Adoption in the context of the chapter (and in Ephesians 1 and Galatians 4) is not something past, but future, something even Paul was hoping for. Adoption is the moment where the children of God are made manifest through the glorification of the body. So we are predestined to receive adoption, not before the foundation of the world (that is not an idea that's in the chapter), but in the moment we get sealed by the Spirit. So the golden chain (predestinated, called, justified, glorified) is perfectly intact from our point of view, because we are predestined to receive the adoption of the children of God, we are called to be saints, we are justified by Christ's atoning sacrifice, and we will be glorified.
Thanks guys! I have to think through what you are suggesting. Blessings!
Hey brother can i please ask you something?
I know its not in context with this video but i was worried beacouse i thought i might have blasphemed and i just wanted assurance. So i discussed with my friends what blasphemy is (Attributing the spirits work with the devil) and meanwhile i made a few examples of what would need to be said without realizing i was actually saying the blasphemy in that moment. I just wanted them to understand my fear and what i was alking about. ---Still basically saying the blasphemy multiple times. Do you think i did the sin? I obviously didnt mean what i said. I feel so helpless and i think i fell for the devils trap.
And in the bible stands:
"Whoever speaks against the holy spirit". I dont know if the context its spoken in is important but i spoke against it. I already repented but feel like its too late. Please help me❤️🙏
@@seedsower678 Well not according to the bible or the passage talked about. Its about blasphemy
@@seasonedwithsalt5129 What do you mean man? Please all i want is to stay with god but i dont know if i did the sin? Please help me and say what you think. God bless you
@@yourlostairpod9556 ,...Yes, you have done the sin! You are not a Christian but you claim to be. You have blasphemed the Holy Spirit and lied to God and to the Holy Spirit, and to the world. If you will read the verses I have provided for you, you will see that this mention of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is surrounded by pointing out the difference of those who are Christians and those who claim to be but are not. By claiming to be a Christian when one is not, they have condemned themselves.
Matthew Ch. 12,
30, "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31, Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32, And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33, Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34, O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35, A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36, But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37, For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."
@@seasonedwithsalt5129 What do you mean?
@yourlostairpod9556 "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" is conscious and hardened opposition to the truth, "because the Spirit is truth" (1 John 5:6). Conscious and hardened resistance to the truth leads man away from humility and repentance, and without repentance, there can be no forgiveness. Simply put, Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not believing.
"For those who wonder if they have committed the unpardonable sin. I’ve known people who struggle reading about the reality of this “unpardonable sin,” as they wonder if they have committed this sin. I think such wrestling is likely an indication that they have not done this, as the Spirit is at work in terms of convicting them of sin and helping them recognize they fall short of God’s glory. In addition, they are aware of sin and struggle to believe the immeasurable riches of God’s grace. Those who commit this sin do not struggle with their sin or with God’s grace - they presume God’s grace or think they are not greatly in need of it."
Yes, thanks for this. Very consistent with Scripture revelation in Old and New Testaments.
Excellent exposition
Thanks for watching!
What's the consequence of this teaching?
Or rather I ask, why is this important?
The doctrinal battle between calvanists and provisionists is substantial in some Christian circles.
-I have several friends that are big-time Calvinists and I once was in that vein. Not so much anymore now I just like to know the other side because sometimes I think they identify more as Calvinists than Christians, even though they would not admit to that.
my brother nice try but you didnt't exegete the text you only jumped around to different verseS which when read in context arent even related to john 6:45
The apostles were God's sheep that were given to Jesus (John 17:6).
Yes. Very helpful!
I’m 11 minutes in and haven’t heard anything that refutes a Calvinist understanding of John 6. You could assume what you presented refutes the Calvinist understanding if you beg the question pertaining to human freedom and total depravity, but other than that, everything you presented can be accepted by a Calvinist.
hermeneutical gymnastics but he didn't stick the landing
Don’t be so reformed and listen to the rest, it will provide context ( keep reading, context matters )
It’s only another 12 minutes then your opinion might carry a bit more credibility.
Great video! Appreciate the time and effort... 🙏💪❣️📖🔥Shalom!
John 6:65 Begins *_“BECAUSE OF THIS”_* you cannot come to me unless the Father gives you to me...
What is the THIS?
Verse 65 is an answer to the previous verse 64: UNBELIEF is what prevents the Father from giving them to the Son; not because God indiscriminately picks people for destruction. The tares (unbelievers) then walked away from Christ in the verses following, and the Believers (wheat) stayed and walked with Him.
John 6:64-65 YLT
*_but there are certain of you who do not believe;'_”
65 and he said, `*_Because of this_* I have said to you -- No one is able to come unto me, if it may not have been given him from my Father.'
Christ is speaking about jews and gentiles alike. This is very clearly laid out through the entire Bible. The "all" that Christ speaks of that were given to him by the Father are the same "all" that Christ speaks of and prays for John 17.
John 17:1-3: "These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
David speaks of this many times in the Psalms.
Ps 65:2-4: "O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come. Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away. Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple."
You will worshiping idolaters are despicable and under strong delusion.
2Ths 2:10-14: "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Christ says "no man" not "no jew"
John 6:44: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
www.apuritansmind.com/arminianism/the-%e2%80%9cgod%e2%80%9d-of-arminianism-is-not-worshippable/
Zechariah & Elizabeth
Luk 1:6 ISV Both of them were righteous before God, having lived blamelessly according to all of the commandments and regulations of the Lord.
Cornelius was a righteous man; he just didn't know about Jesus. Book of Acts.
Yep, its that simple.
Calvinism remains irrelevant because it changes nothing. If Calvinism is true, nothing changes. If it’s false, again nothing changes.
@HaroldZwingley yep. Seems like a lot of Internet preachers springing up lately who are preaching for money.
Hey Jordan!
Hey JP! How are you?
@@GreatLightStudios Doing well. Thanks for asking! Great video!
Please learn the theological system you are critiquing first, before you attack it. You are not qualified at this stage to do so. No Calvinist believes God is the cause of people rejecting Him. That belongs to man's sinful heart. Please learn the system of belief first. Stop sharing with the world what you don't know. It's embarrassing to watch!
Hi Stephen, I'd suggest that you actually don't understand the system I'm critiquing. Jeff Durbin and many other Calvinists like him certainly do believe that God is the ultimate cause of all sin and evil. You said that this "belongs to man's sinful heart..." -- but in Calvinism, hasn't God determined what the nature of man's heart would be. As the Westminster confession says...
"God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;"
God has ordained WHATSOEVER comes to pass. This includes sin.
I'd also recommend you should read more of Calvin... the namesake of your system who clearly believed that God is the ultimate cause of the sinner's rejection of Himself...
"…how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He will, rewarding them nonetheless according to desert? Again it is quite clear from the evidence of Scripture that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills just as he will, whether to good for His mercy’s sake, or to evil according to their merits. ” (John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,” 10:11)
@GreatLightStudios
Thanks for reply.
Note Calvin's words, 'Divine justice....'
Context is everything. God is not the author of evil. Neither the confessions, nor Calvin teach that. Rather, whichever way one puts it, the buck stops with God. Unless you have a God who has no control or power. If He is all powerful, then He has absolute control over all things. Even if by mere allowance, He still allows it. God planned the brutal murder of an innocent man, His Son, did He not? Acts 2v23.
And what of:
2Sa 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
2Sa 12:12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.
Besides, there is such a thing as judicious hardening of man's heart, or a giving him over to sin.
Yes, ultimately God does decree all things for His glory, yet is not the author of sin. We would never know what grace, forgiveness, mercy, love, compassion, goodness, long-suffering, and the like, were it not for sins entrance into the world. So, in that sense, God did decree sin, though He is not the cause or author sin. 'God is light, and in Him is no darkness..' There is an element of divine mystery in all these things.
From the strong Calvinist John Gill:
yea, even the wicked for the day of evil; this is added to illustrate the general proposition in the preceding clause, and to obviate an objection, that might be taken from the destruction of the wicked, against all things being for the glory of God; for even the destruction of the wicked, which is under a divine appointment, is for his glory. It is not the sense of this text, nor of any other passage of Scripture, that God made man to damn him; nor is this to be inferred from the doctrine of predestination: God made man, neither to damn him, nor to save him, but for his own glory; and that is secured, whether in his salvation or damnation; nor did or does God make men wicked; he made man upright, and he has made himself wicked; and, being so, God may justly appoint him to damnation for his wickedness, in doing which he glorifies his justice.
Pure compromising Calvinist nonsense -
"God is the cause of ALL things"
"God doesn't cause people to reject Him"
Read Romans 9 slowly and frequently and by God's grace you may believe what God declares.
The elect are drawn by God
Not by doctrine being preached!
I have never seen this short 3 minute clip from Paul Washer but it may be the best quick explanations I have heard on our nature and why John 6 is consistent with Calvinist doctrine.
ua-cam.com/video/6V2c9T8KEDY/v-deo.html
This gives me a headache now. I can’t take it. I don’t think any of this is true anymore.
Did David obey the Lord by his own free will? Did Saul obey before he was converted? So what you are saying is that all these people need is "reason and logic" and they would be true followers of Jesus. Is that how the disciples came to follow Jesus?
By your argument, people simply need proper instruction and they will freely choose to do the right thing.
Do you believe that God desires all men to be saved? If that is true then God would not have given men free will since He knows that they will not all choose Him.
You are only left with 2 options
1. God is powerless to bring about his desires.
2. God is lying and He really does not want all men to be saved.
The real question is, How does a holy and immortal all powerful God get what He wants?
John 6:63-71 In this part of the book it is crystal clear that the reason they do not follow is because it has not be granted to them.
vs 65 "This is why I told you that no one CAN come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
God wants all men to be saved. Not every single person on the planet.
@@aletheia8054 ,...Jesus only came for, and only died for the few who are his chosen ones, his elect. The other 99% of the worlds population who fill all the 100% apostate churches are all vessels of wrath made to be destroyed.
Mankind does not have freewill, and the churches manmade freewill gospel is a 100% false manmade fraud.
This makes sense
people were fearing the Lord? yes, and all those who responded to Jesus believing in him were saved, his disciples, his brothers, and more as we can see in the book of Acts. Jesus told them (the Jews in chapter 8 of John's gospel) could not hear the words of God, because they were not of God. v.47. the word of God had no place in them Jesus said. v. 37. Also verse 34. Jesus said that they're in bondage to sin. And only the Son can make them free v. 36. not them but the Son. oh, and one more thing. The Life of Christ was still in the OT. The NT began after his ascension.
Great work bud ✌️
The Jews in the first century had the scripture about the massiah, so it’s not any wonder they believe in the messiah.
That doesn’t make them any less elect and predestined .
Was Mary Magdalene Gods sheep? Mary was not walking in Gods footsteps.
Well said!
I agree 100%%%
Does John 6 support Calvinism? Of course not! It clearly supports Catholicism lol
I can’t tell exactly, but you seem to be presenting a Pelagian take, at least in some of the concepts you presented. As in, it seems you are suggesting that people just need to do what they should do, like accept the truth when presented. If what you mean is that people are presented revelation, and then through inherent cognitive abilities come to the conclusion that the revelation presented is true, which results in them fearing God, being drawn to the Son, and believing in him for their salvation, then yes, that is very much Pelagian.
Yes, that’s exactly what they think. They just won’t come right out and say it plainly.
@@aletheia8054
Your a liar.
What about the Holy Spirit's conviction of sin, righteousness and judgement? Do you think that could play a part in how someone could respond to the gospel?
Yes, these people teach the same thing what Erasmus of Rotterdam believed when he debated Martin Luther, that we have a free will to make a decision of faith.
@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 the Bible says the Holy Spirit produces faith
Apparently, Rasmus just didn’t know his Bible
There are no its, isms, or ologies in our walk with Christ.
The one who comes to Him will be raised up, not everyone who is drawn. The antecedent of Him who is raised up is he who comes to Him, not everyone who is drawn. Jesus saud if He was lifted up, He would draw all men unto Himself. He was lifted up on the cross; He does draw all men. John 12:32. All are drawn, but not everyone comes to Him. Therefore, the requirement is to be drawn, but all men are draen. It expresss, not exclusivity, but that God must instigate the relsmationship by drawing us to Jesus. Jesus, same person and member of the Godhead who spoke John 6:44, said that if He was lifted up, He would draw all men to Himself. Did Jesus say that idly? No; He couldn't have. He draws all men; some come to Him. But "this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, and MEN preferred darkness because their deeds were evil". So some come to the light, and some refuse to come to the light. Who comes to the light, those people who haven't done wrong? No, that's just the opposite of the truth. All have sinned, including all those who turn to Jesus. Jesus came into the world to save sinners, not the righteous. Compare the publican with the Pharisee: which one comes to the light? Jesus is not preaching a gospel of works or self-righteousness. The only "deeds" they want to be clearly seen are "wrought IN God", are not all of their deeds, but it is this turning to God, pouring themselves upon His mercy, because its a response to God holding out his hands in an offer of salvation, and all who receive it get real salvation (not just potential salvation, some "empty," mere offer, as Calvinism denigrates it to be less that actual salvation.) The publican wants God to clearly see that he has grasped the grace God has given him to turn in repentance, and that His mercy is all that he has. He is beating his breast, that God see and hear this repentance, but there's not a bit of self-righteousnss in it. So the some who come to the light, do so because they are "doing truth". It doesn't mean that they have always done the truth, but they are, now, in this repentant turning to God. Notice that it isnt saying some do evil and others do good. We all do evil; some eventually do the truth. The thief on the cross railed against Jesus with the other thief, at first, but he turned from that lie, and he then did the truth. The self-righteous pharisee in the parable never came to the light. He built himself up in his own mind and settled for that. He "prayed with himself", rather than pray to God. And what the publican had was his own reaction, residing and coming from him, but it was "wrought IN God".
🙏
To preach Repentance and Remission of sins to Everyone, All nations
Luke 24:47 KJV
and that [repentance] and [remission of sins] should be [preached] in his name among [all nations,] beginning at Jerusalem.
- Sincere turn from (practice) of (sin) and (willful sin) or (All) will perish
Luke 13:3 KJV
I tell you, [Nay:] but, except [ye repent,] ye shall [all] [likewise] [perish.]
- Believe for your faith will save you, for believing leads to (pardon of sins) to not (die) in (sin)
John 8:24 KJV
I said therefore unto you, that [ye shall die] in your sins: for [if ye believe not] that I am he, ye shall [die] in your [sins.]
- Receive forgiveness of sins when we are converted, + multiple ways for remission of sins, (pardon of sins)
Acts 10:43 KJV
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his [name] [whosoever believeth] [in him] shall [receive] [remission of sins.]
- Love God and love thy neighbor as thyself, for love will (cover) all sins, (pardon of sins)
Proverbs 10:12 KJV
Hatred stirreth up strifes: but [love] [covereth] all [sins.]
Luke 7:47 KJV
Wherefore I say unto thee, [Her sins,] which [are many,] [are forgiven;] for [she loved much:] but to whom [little is forgiven,] the same [loveth little.]
- Have frevernt (love) among (the brethren) and (the people) for frevernt (love,) giving, having conpassion shall (cover) the multitude of sins, (pardon of sins)
1 Peter 4:8 KJV
And above all things have fervent [charity] [among yourselves:] for [charity] shall [cover] the [multitude of sins.]
- Preaching and (converting the sinner) from the error of his way will (hide) a multitude of sins, (pardon of sins)
James 5:20 KJV
Let him know, that he which [converteth] the sinner from the [error of his way] shall save a [soul] from [death,] and shall [hide] a [multitude of sins.]
- Confession of sin, confess your sins everyday for the forgiveness of sins, (pardon of sins)
1 John 1:9 KJV
If we [confess] our sins, he is faithful and just to [forgive] us [our sins,] and to [cleanse us] from all [unrighteousness.]
- (Water baptism) for the (remission of sins), remission/pardon/forgiveness of sins
Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be [baptized] every one of you in the [name] of [Jesus Christ] for the [remission of sins,] and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
- To give knowledge of salvation to all by the (remission) of (our) (sins), (pardon of sins)
Luke 1:77 KJV
To give [knowledge] of [salvation] unto his people [by] the [remission] of their [sins,]
- Those (predestined), will die in (0 sin,) all sins were pardoned by the (remission of sins)
Matthew 24:13 KJV
[13] But he that shall [endure] unto [the end,] the same [shall be saved.]
These videos are such a waste of time. It all boils down to how our presuppositions influence how we interpret scripture. And we can make the bible mean ANYTHING. These debates have been going on for centuries. Therefore, Jordan is NOT bringing anything new to the table.
Absolutely superb!👌
Thank you sir!
So God chooses gentile atheists today based on the fact they walk in the light and revelation of the law of Moses?😂
💪 Jordan.
Yes it does
This is good
Trying to make sense of the Bible just as long as it’s not Calvinism is an ignorant and arrogant approach.
There was no definition. No understanding of ancient language, customs cultures and figures of speech.
Everything he said was predicated on being against the Calvinist. It was the main part of his method of hermeneutic.
But you are not a calvinist although it seems like you agree with parts of it. What do you disagree with Calvinism about? Do you follow any particular Christian tradition?
@@jwtre original sin. Adam didn’t have a free will. Sin is not imputed.
Christmas is pagan
Babies doing go to hell
Predestined to conform to Christ Not just predestined
I don’t run to the Westminster confession for my doctrine
No water baptism
No “holy communion”
@@aletheia8054 interesting.
1. You’re probably wrong on original sin and imputed sin. Or at least your statement is too strongly worded. Adam having free will is kind of irrelevant. Romans 5:12-21
2. Christmas was originally pagan. And most Christmas celebrations are debauchery. Still Christ was born and there is nothing wrong with have a humble quiet meal with your family.
3. Some babies might go hell but it’s totally irrelevant to how we life our lives. Jesus clearly loved the children and did not want anyone to hinder them or lead them astray. As we can not see the heart, we have no idea which children sincerely love him.
4. True - Roman’s 8:29-30
5. No one runs to the Westminster confession
6. Might not be necessary as a sacrament for salvation. However Christ was baptized in water. All the apostles baptized believers in water. John 3:5 “born of water and the spirit”. Do you consider water baptism sin?
7. Might not be necessary as a sacrament for salvation. However Christ asked his disciplines to do this in remembrance of him. Do you consider communion sin?
@@jwtre you asked, so I answered
@@aletheia8054 yes thanks I appreciate it. I was just wondering where you and Manny get your theology and if you subscribe to any particular Christian tradition. The reason is because the things you guys say sound familiar and certainly overlap with parts of reformed theology. For example we all agree that Great Light is unregenerate, unsaved, illiterate, and greatly deceived though he has no control over the matter and this channel feeds lies to reprobates who think they know God but are perishing.
I most closely identify with Calvinism, especially having to do with God’s sovereignty, however I might not agree with everything. Also I’ve never attended a Calvinist or reformed church but I was raised and baptized in a mainstream non-Calvinist evangelical church. I no longer attend those churches.