Debating "Woke" Elites & Free College w/ Batya Ungar-Sargon
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- Опубліковано 28 лис 2021
- Briahna Joy Gray speaks with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Deputy Opinion Editor of Newsweek & author of a provocative new book titled Bad News: How Woke Media is Undermining Democracy. A self-described "former woke," Batya is now skeptical of left media culture that feels increasingly elite & distant from journalisms working class roots. But while Brie & Batya agree on mainstream media's deficits, they disagree on the extent to which "wokeness" itself is the problem. They debate intersectionality, defund the police, free college, AOC, left immigration policy, & more. Subscribe to listen to (or watch) the full conversation: / episode-128-boy-59266559
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This was awesome
Hello Ms. Gray - This was a very good conversation. I feel like the point that so many talking heads miss is that, yes of course the CRT debate is not about CRT. What its about is Kendi and Diangelo - and if we could shift from debating CRT - to debating Kendi and Diangelo , the conversation might go somewhere different.
i feel rick rolled lmao. but this was one of the best convos i've heard in a loooooong time! you're deff one of my fav up and coming public intellectuals. just amazinggggggg
Cute hair Bounce for both men
Jough Biden, eliminationist of the highest magnitude & order 😒🥺 and his Bri Brrap Blibber plan. The Democrats continue to do nothing for the people that the United States has always marginalized and that those who identify as the racist legal construct of “whiteness” have always extracted their inter-generational wealth and luxury from through the undeniable structural dispossession of non-Eurasian people for centuries including displacements like the pervasive sundown towns… not just redlining all throughout the north, west too, including California, and it’s reprehensible and the Democrats are unfortunately only slightly less fascist than the damn untenable Republican fascists. 😭 no help for the marginalized in America from the Democrats or the Republicans but plenty of room for Eurasian colonizers w/“merit” to move right into the areas “US’s” marginalized have always been redlined from - it’s just reprehensible and the historical materialism cannot be ignored nor can the truth.
It is what it is and it’s horrific. You can’t deny a vast preponderance of unbiased antecedent evidence, even as horrific as the real history of this place a.k.a. not the intellectually dishonest deceitful settler colonialist hagiography.😒
Free college should also mean free post high school trade schools.
I'm surprised BJG didn't emphasize that considering that's exactly what her former boss paid her to advocate as his National Press Secretary
Yeah, that’s why it does mean that. Every proposal for free higher Ed I’ve ever seen says free trade schools. Even Bidens half-hearted-now-dead proposal in the BBB plan included community colleges (who do tons of training of nurses, welders, rig workers, mechanics, etc.)
Free higher education is fine as long as those that receive free education are academically qualified. Offering free college to those that are academically unqualified would be a massive waste of money. Or worse may lead to water down higher education.
@@julian65886 stop gatekeeping training the future of the society. do you want already academically poor performing students not to have access to education/training? that's like saying the poor, hungry and homeless should not have access to financial aid, food, and housing because theyre already without it.
@@julian65886 Once again, nobody is proposing to end qualifications. Nobody ever said that. Nobody ever said they wanted that. The current barrier for entry to higher ed is wealth (or extreme debt). Maybe we should replace that with merit so we actually have "academically qualified" people.
So , I live in Germany where we have a decent minimum wage level, universal healthcare, a robust jobs training program (trade training) for those who do not wish to go to college , a path to citizen for anyone who has worked and lived here for more than 8 years, paid maternity/parental leave, and free college.
All these things can coexist
+ we all (from right to left) agree that the climate crisis is a top priority
Universal policies. Most people are for it.
Ya, I'm Swiss and American and many Americans are BAFFLED by what you just said. It's like talking about Star Trek futurism to them. Sad huh.
@@24tommyst
Right?
Their political discourse is muddied by a sociopathic elite class that are afraid that they would lose their worth (meaning to life) if they are no longer the only ones who can afford certain privileges (like education, healthcare, housing etc).
That’s why they (irrespective of claimed ideology of political party affiliation) muddy political discourse with ambiguous cultural debate.
What they they fail to understand is that America doesn’t really have a culture per say.
A lot of what they define as culture are superficial elements borrowed from other cultures across the globe mixed in a pot of bigotry, addictive behavior, celebrity worship, dogma, extreme materialism, and unhealthy romanticism.
Basically if it ain’t extreme, it’s not worth it.
Sadly because of their dominance in the entertainment industry and the reach of Silicon Valley (Facebook, UA-cam, IG, Twitter etc) some of these character traits are spreading across the globe.
I cringe when I hear Germans use words and phrases that are borrowed from American political discourse just because that’s what’s trending on social media 🤦🏾♂️
yes like in canada we have all these things as long as our progressive partys are in power,,unfortunately sometimes the conservatives win an election and we go backwards and cancel all social benefits and push privatisation and ignore the environment for big oil etc...
@@bangun172
Most of our conservatives here in Germany are to the left of liberals in the US and Canada. The Democratic Party would be 100% considered a far right party in Germany. In most of Western Europe actually.
“I’m a populist” YES! I don’t care about race, it’s class.
I feel like Briahna is kind of pretending when she says “I don’t know of anyone on the left who is critiquing intersectionality.”
Pretending she doesn't know Adolph Reed apparently
I thought it was also disingenuous of her to say that there’s no connection between CRT and teaching children that they can’t be proud of America.
Intersectionality is the apex predator of counter-revolutionary ideologies. It can take out racial, labor, and gender justice campaigns. People don't see it yet, but intersectional feminism is the completion of White Supremacist patriarchy.
@@IOFrimpong no, that would be making the working class, the ruling class. all throughout history, progress has been generated by the material conditions that inhabit society. you would not have the farmer without the scythe. you would not have the NBA without the basketball, you would not have musician without the instrument. the ideology that the worker should be the ruling class is the very thing that would progress society the most, as that would then unlock the workers to create the tools that would benefit and progress the majority of society, since they make up the majority of society. in this, i am not a Hegelian. and yes, ideology shapes these tasks and creates new ones, but to do that it relies on the former tools used. the progress of society is accrued in the very tools that we use, such as in this computer.
It's great that she's civil and curious and respectful, but I find she resorts to a lot of this type of bad faith tactic.
Where I live in the rural mountains of western North Carolina, many of the locals are proud that their kids have gone to college. And, when the ones who haven't gone to college, it's because they've gone through vocational training for essential services.They work for others or they start their own businesses, or, they're professionals in their own or others' practices -- or they also start businesses. The ones that don't do either of those and are stuck low wage jobs are the unhappy ones who have the rebel flags and Trump stickers on their beat-up trucks.
As an artist who has gutted and renovated on old place, the star in our world is the certified HVAC technician who has kept us from freezing in the winter and cooking in the summer. Our friends who are college educated professionals, as well as everyone else here, would definitely agree.
Free college, to me, means not just college degrees for professions but also for vocations such as welders, HVAC technicians, mechanics, electricians, etc.
Small world - I'm from WNC as well! Your words so incisively sum up the unique wisdom & humility of Southern Appalachian culture. For all of its flaws, that's one of the reasons I'm so grateful to call these beautiful mountains my home.
The woke conversation is important but it's also a distraction to the more important economic inequality issue.
It's only as much of distraction as people want to keep making it a problem to begin with. The bottom line issue isn't that, its leadership, and to some extent, people, not wanting to fight for their issues. Too many folk think taking notes from what the tea party did means becoming literally like them when that isn't true.
The two are connected. You cannot have economic justice until you have racial justice. The same is true of gender equality and many other issues. The history of race and racism is deeply intertwined with economic oppression and Western imperialism. You can't undo that knot without substantively dealing with both threads.
@@cloudyskiesnow I think most people agree with that, its just the problem of not delivering on, frankly anything. But especially the economic policies. Sadly until someone like bernie comes along who ALSO fights back against "moderate dems" we gonna have these arguments till the sun explodes.
What. Is. Woke?
Oh, it’s black stuff? Got it. You class reductionists are all the same.
@@tap_water872 More people gotta be like BJG and actually engage on the matter. Draw actual lines instead of letting other people make it for them.
You can do both
A human is a human first, capitalism has sold us into believing a human is a laborer first, and therefore, should definitely need and want and must labor.
Communism teaches that you aren't a human at all, just an apparatus of thr state. So if not capitalism, then whats the alternative?
One major problem is the conflation of corporatism with capitalism. They aren't the same thing. And I wish people would stop confusing one for the other
The implied value of an individual in a capitalist framework is directly proportional to the amount of money (aka capital) they generate and funnel into the system.
Thanks for saying that. Also, both capitalism and communism are exploitive of the Earth, and oppressive to individuals who just want to be human and not be judged by your income or place in the hierarchy.
If I had a daughter I would want her to be like Brie !
Couched?
38:43 - Oh, come ON! UBI is NOT a disincentive for working! And 'free' college is NOT a way to eliminate the working class, especially not if it's extended to trade schools and apprenticeships as well! That's just raw ignorance!
The free college stuff might sound counterintuitive but Michael Sandel and Daniel Markovits have both written books explaining this. To put it simply: when only 7% of people went to Uni very few jobs could afford to have access limited to University graduates. Especially at entry level. Increasing tertiary education increases credentialism. If you don't go to tertiary education (still more than 50%) then you are far more limited than you would have been in previous eras.
@@chrish5184 you see, right there is a valid criticism or at least a reason to question the idea. The guest provides none of that, only a throwaway line.
(personally I don't think what you referenced about tightened qualifications is a serious reason not to pursue subsidized/'free' tertiary education, especially if we include trade schools - most of Europe does this with minimal trouble and noted benefits)
if you listen to the fine print that isn't said, UBI is a disincentive for working(for capitalists). UBI frees people up to doing the work they need to do, like going back to school/working by taking care of their children/working to build their own business, rather than working for an employer. also, using the convoluted arguments the capitalists use, government subsidized college would eliminate their ability to hire people to work for them to educate society, which would then "eliminate" the worker's who would do so, making a host of worker's, "unemployed". to these mouthpieces of corporate propaganda, nobody else is able to do what they do, and thus if you eliminate their role, that would eliminate that role for all of society.
I'm a supporter of UBI but UBI will disincentive work if 1, its stacks with existing welfare and 2, its too high. What is disincentivising work now is the means testing that comes with welfare, if we removed all of the red tape, hoops and traps people fall through people would be a lot more willing to take part time or full time work. Also I don't support free college, the working poor and middle class should not be paying for higher education, most lower class people don't want to go to college so why should their tax dollars go to middle and upper class white kids? Why should kids who aren't smart enough to qualify for college have to pay when 40% of college kids drop out?, its a complete waste of tax payers dollars. Give everyone $1000 a month so they're all on the same playing field. If a kid wants to go to college they can, if they want to save for a house they can, if they want to start a business they can. Otherwise were just creating a wider class gap and not attaching any responsibility to the actions young people take.
@@bradtaylor77 your so incredibly wrong i don't even know where to start. actually I'll start with this. working class people are deeply involved not only in skill training, but also the development of theories and creation of processes. this myth that the "working class is apathetic and uninterested in higher education" is deeply problematic and is class discrimination and prejudiced. also, your being unempirical and irrational when stating that a progressive basic income disincentivizes the acquisition of a further income. the data from various experiments in all sorts of countries show's very marginal to no impact on unemployment. also, making college universal disincentivizes policy makers from cutting these programs because "what the heck, i don't benefit from this, we should cut this nonhelpful (to me) benefit". your being ideologically incoherent in being against means testing for disability, but then being FOR means testing when it comes to college. it lessens the equality gap to have universal programs for the rich and the poor, rather than just having unequal means tested programs for the "disadvantaged", which makes them much more likely to get cut. also, why do we have to burden children with responsibilities? wasn't that one of the reasons we got rid of exploitative child labor? unless your against that?
Not sure a woman who refers to any criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic is qualified to speak on racism.
Which is funny. She thinks she speaks for black politics but we all know she doesn’t speak to black people
Facts!!!
How embarrassing
The interviewer moved too quickly from Batya’s point about the fact that we’ve left one population behind over and over again: descendants of slaves. It also moved past the author’s critique about how an emphasis on diversity and “POC” can subvert the needs of those who have consistently been left behind in American policy and practice.
That was intentional
The argument of free college, in most cases, includes free trade schools. Most people would love to have more skills to bank on and many would prefer some college. This woman has no idea that community college includes such things as low level pharmacy techs, and even HVAC technicians which is considered "a trade". Most working class people, if given an opportunity to get some college courses, would take a few college courses to improve their current job or expand on their business knowledge. Most can't afford it now, so they don't and they aren't interested. She is way out of touch with working class people.
I wouldn’t say “way” out of touch. You make good points but they are really minor details. She IS correct that many working class people feel sneered at by Elites. I think you are right though and the real problem is the “systemic” bias against vocational or trade education. Interestingly both women seem to be showing gaps in their knowledge based on their previously held views. I LOVE Briana but she DOES show a bit of elitism in this exchange. I guess that’s what Harvard Law does to you.
@@Kidd4ever love bri but she sucks here. This other woman lost me at trump is like Bernie and she listens to fox news all day and America first this planet is too far gone to put America in front of anyone or anywhere plus the rich and elite have been selling out the Americans for decades and hiding their money oversees and bitching about paying taxes and spouting about rugged individualism f*** that!
@@dlwseattle yeah we agree this wasn’t either woman’s shining hour, but Instill find the argument fascinating. I think it really shows the problems we are up against. The one thing I’ll say for the guest is that (and as you point out) all that really matters is results. This argument about the minutiae of whether or not US is fundamentally flawed is silly and it make the participants look silly. I find myself agreeing with both at times and violently disagreeing with both at other times. But I think this shows just how f#^cked we are. These are probably two of the most intelligent advocates you’ll ever see and it all amounts to nothing. I think there is something fundamentally wrong with humans, and if not, then at the very least it does no good to continue these types of discussions. It’s really just factions of elites going through rhetorical exercises. If there is salvation to be had, it will come from regular people not playing by the rules and not having polite discussions about how to address roiling grievances. That said, I think there is no salvation to be had.
@@Kidd4ever It's not like people that graduate from mid-tier (or lower) universities don't feel sneered at by elites. Almost everyone agrees Ivy-league graduates are snobs. If you ever listen in on a recorded Yale class or something, you can see that they are basically taught that they are better people. They then enter the workforce with a opportunity infrastructure horded just for them. Can you imagine how much this skews someone's understanding of how the world works for most people? The end result is something like this woman learning about working people like an anthropologist studying apes.
But working class people already do that. Its already offered in adult education and people take advantage of it all the time. Trade schools= plumbing, electrician, carpentry. Get it?
Briahna Joy Gray is incredible. There's nothing else like this on YT
I agree
This seems like a pretty generic UA-cam comment in terms of fans of different channels making variations of this exact same comment about their favorite UA-cam channels...
Even someone who cleans toilets could feel proud they are helping the society in which they belong, if we paid them something fair.
That would assume that people see themselves as part of a society and not as a hyper individualistic actor that only operates to further their own interests. The idea of being part of a society is something that is less and less common in contemporary American culture, which is one of the big reasons why this country is descending into factionalism. People no longer feel kinship with their neighbors and no longer feel that their interests or identities are connected.
Capitalist mindset: but then how would I make him do better for myself?
As someone who has cleaned toilets and wiped asses for my living, I agree that icky jobs should be very well paid; but the fact that other people look on you with disdain is almost as bad as low pay, and isn't so easily fixed.
Believe it or not it is not a pay problem alot of the time. Its a spend problem. I know its not popular to say. But it is true. Live like no other so you can one day live like no other.
@@wb94632 but it's very popular to say, that's what Americans are told ALL THE TIMES.
I love Brihana. I really do. But having two highly educated members of the elite debating the abandonment of the working class and elitesplaining how we feel is honestly part of the problem.
What would having an uneducated, working class guest solve? Would they even say or believe anything differently? Seems like you're dismissing their thoughts because you're prejudiced. The hard fact is that we need solutions, education makes you smarter, and so the "elites" will tend to have better solutions (and conversations) than the average working-class Joe.
@@scooterbarr325 That's a very classist statement my friend.
@@darrylgoodwin7947 Which part? That education makes you smarter, or that "elites" tend to be higher educated? Calling my statement a derogatory buzzword doesn't make you right. On the other hand, dissmissing Bri and her guest merely because they're "elite" is what....not classist?
@@scooterbarr325 The inference that working class Joe has no insight into his own problems and that our elite "betters" will be the one's to come up with solutions although to this point their track record is piss poor.
@@darrylgoodwin7947 Being educated makes you smarter and smarter people come up with better solutions. It's a fact of life. You seem to look down on people more successful than you by lumping them as "elites" because it's easy and makes you feel better about yourself. You are the one who is prejudiced by class. You are the one who said "people like you talking about these issues is bad". Here's another fact: Bri and her guest are much smarter than the average person and so they have interesting conversations and solutions. If you disagree, then put up or shut up amd show us how smart you are.
29:24 is a really great point. You don't measure racism in this country by visibility or polling it's segregation. Having a black superhero does nothing to stop the police from illegally detaining me for being in a highly segregated neighborhood.
I've done plenty of blue collar work in my life. There's plenty of dignity and meaning to be found in it (with exceptions) but in addition to better wages and working conditions, also the opportunity to not do so much of it would help. The 40-hour work week is a tragedy. I'm sure many blue collar workers who take pride in their work but also happily work a 20- 30 hour work week instead of what they're asked to do in order to spend more time with their families, or with their hobbies or whatever. If the earnings in hours would support themselves, which they don't at present. Also, eliminate as much work as possible that takes place during hours when people should be at home sleeping. F*** night shifts forever, and compensate well those few lines of work that society needs to be 24/7.
This.
Called work-life balance. A 32 hour work week, 4 days, would be a good one. Life isn't, or shouldn't made of work and sleep only, what takes away most of our lifetime. We are more productive when having enough time for ourselves and family.
@@teardrop-in-a-fishbowl I rather plant trees for 32hrs /week than work at an office entering in data and counting other peoples money.
@@teardrop-in-a-fishbowl And it is not just a matter of choosing to reduce hours. I know it exists but I have found a hard time finding employment for 4 days a week. It isn't on offer for many companies.
Yes, excellent points, every single one!
We can afford free collage. We can afford best universal health care. We can afford UBI augmented with disability support, child care and provide supports for all seniors until they die with dignity. We can afford it all. As a busted working class man who has crossed into white collar world for a dozen years, this woman talks a lot of bullocks.
yea she sounds like a skin-deep lefty who has bought into the MSM talking points. basically an airhead normie dem? bri tried so hard to sync with her but uh... it was kinda painful, especially when batya does that faux empathy tone while regurgitating some republican/neolib agitprop. it's worse than patronising because she seems to genuinely believe that she's still progressive. it's actually insulting.
We are spending out of control and the inflation has already started spinning out of control. We could have had free college but instead we shut the country down and gave everyone money.
who is this we? do you have a mouse in your pocket or does we actually mean me?
@@guywithalltheanswers6942 Nonsense neoliberal talking points, the Federal governments spending is beyond inadequate and is nowhere close to "spinning out of control". As if the Federal government can not give stimulus money for a disaster pandemic and also pay for free college. Like there is some limited pool of money somewhere the US Federal government has to draw upon.
Batya is right on in pointing out that the left is prioritizing the wrong things and getting nowhere. She is advocating for finding the common constituent concerns and focusing on those. Healthcare... yes. College... not so much.
I know where I stand on some of these issues and absolutely love being able to observe a real conversation about them.
Me too. I think this stuff super fun, only one in my house that does, but ....
My disagreements with BJG all stem from the fact that, despite agreeing on things like diagnosing societal issues and the textbook definition of terms, she doesn't seem to acknowledge or accept that ideas evolve once they hit society at large and are applied practically in different ways than a textbook definition might otherwise have us think.
It's a pervasive problem in progressive circles IMO. We spend all our time defining academic theories and definitions rather than looking at practical application in society. Batya is right. For example, it doesn't matter that the populace misdefines critical race theory. The way it's being used and applied in the mainstream has altered the term, and the wise politician/activist should adapt. It serves no one to keep pretending that this new definition hasn't taken root. This is the kind of bad faith argument/stubbornness that hurts the progressive movement. And it's totally unnecessary if the goal is to drive significant change for all of our society.
Said it perfectly
For an intellect/academic exercise this interview is great.
But on the other hand this is textbook of "elitism". The discussion revolve around abstract concepts that get nowhere and half agreements symbolized with repeated "yes but"...
The casual brutality of this woman is very typical of conservative invective, as church talk can be. Essentially impolite and distracting revealing of the weakness of this contradiction oriented argument. Insincere ringer for pointless attacks. Paid well I would guess.
Almost agent provocateur
I know it wasn't just me. The condescending laughter was annoying. I try to entertain these people but they're oftentimes disingenuous or unserious.
I have to say, I think Brianna missed the larger message and a huge reason why progressive ideas are not being implemented. She was too concerned to push her view point instead of seeing the simplicity of the argument. It's basic, progressives cannot and have not made their message palatable for voters on the other side. Because they are hung up on forcing an ideological starting point on others instead of doing everything they can to win and take the wins even when they don't do it in exactly the way they want. Conservatives are much better at convincing their base vs the in fighting within liberals that gets in the way of the larger goals.
Agreed. Batya made some great points that Brianna didn't even address.
This. I find it frustrating that we spend so much time debating semantics on the left. It's just endless debate without anything really to show for it. I feel a lot of it is about being seen/heard than actually making real tangible progress. In many ways, the gatekeepers to real progress are the progressive elites themselves, who refuse to meet regular people where they are actually at, rather than some ideal standard that will never happen.
When a cop pulled me over, pressed a g*n to the back of my head, and called me a “ dumb n**ger,” that was DEFINITELY about class 🤝 * SARCASM * but she’s not lying that whyte progressives are out of line with how we think as a community. And btw, I’m on the Left and take issue with intersectionality too. First of all, it’s just a social theory. It’s okay to disagree with it lol. Secondly, and lastly, experiences, with respect to identity, is not linear in a way where various identities within a subject somehow compounds experiences of oppression. In some instances, one of those identities can benefit you in certain areas, while others hinder you; in other areas, that same identity that benefit in one situation can hinder you in other situations. And that goes for all of them. It’s somewhat difficult to weigh and compare all these competing experiences and rank them within this compounded hierarchy of oppressive experiences. Anyway, I really don’t care about this nonsense. I’m just out here trying to provide for my wife and I. But in convos like this, it’s pretty obvious that Brie is out of touch with what young activists are saying. Which is interesting. One last point: Brie has to pick and choose when she wants to pushback on her guests’ points. Doing so for literally every single point made, even for semantical things about language, becomes frustrating. Like, got damn!
Free Assange !!! Americans please call your representatives and ask them to support freedom for Julian Assange!!!! Faithful!!
People are socially conservative because they've _been taught_ to be socially conservative. Existence _precedes_ essence. For someone who claims to embrace marxism, I'm finding it incredibly difficult to find any tethering or grounding to the _material_ relationships that undergird the cultural superstructure.
_“The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force. The class which has the means of material production at its disposal, has control at the same time over the means of mental production, so that thereby, generally speaking, the ideas of those who lack the means of mental production are subject to it. The ruling ideas are nothing more than the ideal expression of the dominant material relationships, the dominant material relationships grasped as ideas.”_
_"Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past. The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living."_ - some guy
She says we shouldn't ignore descendants of slaves... then use an example of a Nigerian outearning whites.
She had NO business writing a book on any of these issues.
Seriously, so idiotic.
Nigerians aren’t descendants of American slavery. What part of what you posted is in contradiction??
What I hate most about this guest is the way she seems to say that we shouldn't ever be challenging conservatism among the working class...because it's held by the working class. That's silly. Being working class isn't virtuous. It's just a fact of capitalism.
Actually without a working class you would not have anything, since they are the people that actually create the value in an economy. So talking like its a dirty thing, is a problem and very much elitist and extremely retarded. Unless you think its cool to just exploit a working class in some poor country, but thats still a working class though.....
@@jonathanhijlkema8247 Uh Johnathan you'll note that I very much acknowledge that ("It's just a fact of capitalism.")
What I'm saying is that nothing about that implies a moral superiority. Conservatism, as an overall political or cultural orientation, isn't somehow redeemed by being "widely held" among the working class or somehow shouldn't be challenged, which is what Batya is saying with her reverse moralistic argument. The working class are important because of their position in a capitalist society, not because they're better people than "the elites".
And she's also using the "identify as conservative" term, which doesn't mean anything. A number of these "conservative" voters passed referendums to legalize weed when their actually conservative "representatives" were very opposed to legalization. These "conservatives" support plenty of left policies provided you don't put labels on those policies
@@jonathanhijlkema8247 There's a vast difference though between now and the highly skilled, paid and respected working class the US used to have. High pay and good education drive up automation so eg. car assembly and agriculture becomes ever more automated, car washes get done by machine etc..., and because the economy is more automated/efficient the jobs that can't be automated (eg. childcare, renovation, customer service etc...) get better paid. My country of Australia has done things this way, but unfortunately over the last 10 years we're moving in the US direction and are therefore setting ourselves up for similar decline in the longer term.
@@withlove312 @Shatarupa I think the whole value judgement of people is boring, stupid and completely useless or even counterproductive, so I really dont care about moral superiority or any superiority of any class for that matter.
Whoever what I think we should care about, is focus on bringing people together and not divide the powerless even further, and that is being done all the time. By criticizing the workingclass from the left, you're just alienating a big part of the people and democratic power you could use for getting better wages for poor people, better healthcare and all kinds of other vital stuff powerless people need. Focus on the unifying issues, not the dividing ones, is what Marianne Williamson is probably going for, I think, but I haven't followed her recently.
I rarely post anything online but on places I control, or friends do. That is because over 20 years on the internet has convinced me that people, and what they say/think, are worthy of being despised, by default. I am too old to pretend to play nice. But I have to commend Briahna Joy Gray, a much younger progressive lawyer than myself, who has a lot more tact, patience, and dare I say smarts than I ever had.
She pushes back hard but fairly, against the bullshit. And she doesn't get upset or seem to take it personally. Good on her for that.
As far as her guest goes? I am going to try to be on my best behavior. For a misanthrope, that might not mean much, but instead of insulting her I will say the following. It has been my conclusion if not experience for decades, that the people who make the most noise about so called elites really have a very very very high opinion of themselves. And regarding anyone who self describes as a "Populist." Yeah. I had a liking for that shit. When I was in 5th grade. I out grew that, by the time I was in 8th grade. Anarchy made more sense to me than being some David Ogilvy wannabe's programmed socio-political consumer. (But eventually I gave in and joined the Democratic Party.)
One former political hack's note further. Anyone who does not understand that the ruling right wing elite would gladly see the working class stiff as boards and burned as cordwood, has no business talking about the class war. JMO.
Lastly, Briahna Joy Gray. I agree with you about Harvard. Says someone who went to that little law school north of the NH border. Thanks for your patience and work.
Sir, this is a Danny's.
To me it all boils down to your comment "ruling right wing see working class burned as cordwood. Getting more to understand this is the real job at hand.
Oh Briahna... you kidder!
@@truthstarved pa you are starting to slip
Not really making sense
No, intersectionality does not go nearly far enough to be of any real use in describing how someone's unique mix of myriad identities affect the way they navigate in the world. It is just used to arbitrarily elevate some and dismiss others in a way that satisfies the woke elites' in-group aesthetics, sensibilities and taste. Another tool to dress their prejudice in a cloak of superficial justification.
exactly, intersectionality is vast oversimplification of society. It's just prejudice with extra steps.
Couldn't agree more. As JP says if you take intersectionality to its limit you end up at the individual.... which is where the concept starts and should never have left.
@@williamerdman4888 Thats why it’s a neoliberal (as in essentially libertarian) concept, it’s hyper individualistic, which is anathema to class politics, or even racial or gender politics.
Both parties want us to keep talking about Dr Seuss and Trans bathrooms while they keep taking corporate bribes and stripping key policies from the BBB bill.
For much of this discussion, Batya was making some great points, and the disagreements between her and Bri seemed to be relatively minor, and mostly over definitions or different understandings of terms/ideas like "intersectionality" or "CRT." Batya only began to lose me when she pointed out her opposition to tuition-free college--her reasons weren't persuasive, and I thought Bri's arguments on this issue were consistent w/ the project of moving toward a more egalitarian and just society.
I smell MOLE
This lady agrees a lot until she gets back into her own circles.
Forsure. Ppl here dont seem to know who this women is.
@@abuesab97 I don't know who she is. She watches a lot of fox news. According to her in this interview
It seems like Batya shares many of the same leftist values as Briahna which is why they agree. However, Batya has a much greater distaste for academic theorizing and the cultural elites. Therefore, they want the largely same things for American society but disagree on the tactics being used to get there.
@@patriciafichter4790 is it that bad to watch multiple sources of news, when not any one source of media properly covers all American political perspectives? Moral taint theory / guilt by association.
@@SirSpinach seems like a tale of times or a story that never ends. I guess these two ladies represent us Americans pretty well then. As a society that is. Not pointing us out just in general.
My PhD mother loves to point out how her immigrant cleaning lady has a bachelors degree from her alma mater. SMH
Important conversation. Thank you Briaha
The founding of America was 1789. From 1619-1783, the United States was a
collection of separate colonies of Great Britain.
Wrong. America wasn’t valid until 1964.
@@tap_water872 I bet the girls in hipster history class just loved you.
I'm glad people are starting to do in-person interviews. The quality of Zoom interviews is so bad, not just video and audio but also the quality of the discussion. The constant messing with equipment, compulsively finding links, the lack of concentration and engagement. Zoom just isn't a permanent, one-for-one substitute for in-person conversations. Yes it's great that people thousands of miles away can communicate where they just wouldn't be able to meet, but Zoom shouldn't be seen as eliminating advantages of in-person communication.
P.S. I love how as the guest is describing the parameters of wokeness and the problems it creates in media she does a language acknowledgement and apologises for appropriating the word itself lol.
Did she say wages are going down because of immigration, lol? How about neoliberalism?
Y’all dedicated to ignoring reality.
Same thing
@@anthonymoore7948 Which reality? The reality that corporations are setting up shop ABROAD?
I agree that free college should not be in the same category as universal healthcare. We have to be careful about how we prioritize things. And we should be careful about seeing the effects of one project before taking on others.
As a college instructor, I already have enough students that are there “just because” or because their parents wanted them to be. I also don’t know that community colleges are cost prohibitive. I got my associate’s degree from a community college and I got a refund every semester. I also taught at a technical college for 5 years. The overwhelming majority of my students also got refunds every semester. So, I think we need a thorough analysis of how prohibitive the cost of community college actually is before spending a bunch of additional money.
This was a very intriguing interview. The way that the two of you would align then diverge was a great illustration of the failure of the linear right to left spectrum model to create working class solidarity. Her whole pitch is in preparation for a corporate neo liberal media interviewer and audience. Which Bri is not. But actual progressivism is not just a further extension of corporate liberalism. A multi-directional model would be a better way to understand the political dynamic. We must separate leftism from what is refered to as centerism, to see the true unity they have in the shared interest of the working class. The conflation of a progressive movement with the corporate liberal power is what allows for the hijacking of progressive terminology for corporate PR. Which is really the point of her book. This appropriation of the terminology allows the corporate powers to undermine power of any working class political movement. This is why much of the conversation hinges of defining the terminology. Which is the exact way the neoliberal interest creates the fracturing and in fighting we experience in any organizing of workers movements.
Agreed. Some political science models view political identity as three-dimensional, but the average person still falls back into the language of binaries.
The truth is that the American progressive movement has been essentially hijacked by corporate liberals. For example, Biden and Clinton aren't progressives! They are the best friends of Big Business and have been for decades! But many people treat them like they are for the sake of some kind of misguided unity that never ends up working out for regular working people. Those types have taken the progressive agenda and twisted it to suit the elite class. That's why the corporations are adopting the cultural language of progressives. It's just a cover to protect them from any real threats to their order.
So I agree with Batya. The 'woke' crowd debating cultural issues all day is an intentional distraction from the real problems of the financial system, war/imperialism, and legal reform. And she's also right that the Democrats have lost a significant percentage of the working class in this country. They've done that by becoming the party of coastal elites who talk down to everyone else. Despite what many of us might want to believe, there is a growing populist movement on the right, mainly because the Democrats have abandoned the working class.
Tuition free college also includes community college and trade schools. So this issue is just as important to the blue collar working class.
@Charles DeSantis I'm not aware of trade schools being provided at no expense - Could you cite some examples ?
@Charles DeSantis Apprenticeships are a long established union and non union tradition. Now back to my question, please name a tuition free trade school.
@Charles DeSantis Yes, I went to a trade school and I had to pay for it... So, all those trade schools you listed have free tuition - Or are they some type of scholarship or subsidized ? Honestly, trade schools are often fairly technical these days and have things like, qualified instructors with a curriculum, space to rent for instruction, and diagnostic tools for the students, with accompanying textbooks. None of which is "free" - So, none of these places charge for their services ? "Cause I'm starting to feel like a sucker for having paid for my education. I'll wait while you vett each institution you googled and look forward to an actual answer -Thanks!
@Charles DeSantis Yeah, your answer is what I suspected Charles. Most apprenticeships are free if not paid for with wages. Trade schools aren't free, it's easy to conflate the two. FYI, I went to a trade school, paid for it myself. I was in a union long enough to get a pension and walked the line in a punitive 3 month strike 30 years ago. I own two homes and have zero college debt. You should try working with your hands Charles, I'd bet you'd make a natural plumber. Reading your comments you seem innately familiar with flowing sewage.
I feel like a lot of the disagreement is coming from the sort of distorted short hand the US uses for marxist concepts. There aren't just two classes in society, and the 1% isn't a class. The working class also isn't really a class, it's a blanket term for a lot of economically distinct groups that are actually different classes with different interest. During occupy people went with 99% vs the 1% because it was convenient and all, but it is actually a problem if you use the logic that all these people are the same group. It's why you can't say "Well, all this identity stuff is just a ploy to ignore class issues" because if you subject everyone with green eyes to unique economic policy they will also develop unique class interest. It doesn't mean you can't work with them, it just means you have to think in terms of class collaboration rather than pretending the economic differences don't exist.
""If we broke up the big banks tomorrow would that end racism? Would that end sexism? Would that end discrimination against the LGBT community? Would that make people feel more welcoming to immigrants overnight?""
-Hillary Clinton
Perhaps there's some validity to the rest of what you've said but "identity stuff" is definitely used as a ploy to ignore class interests, that is an objective fact and it's never a good thing to deny objective facts. Also I'm pretty sure the term "class collaboration" was literally invented by the fascists, maybe try to come up with a different term for what you're trying to describe.
Throughout the occupy movement and the years following, it wasn’t so much villianizing the 1%, so much as it was a recognition that all gains in productivity and wealth have benefited the top 1% at a rate twice as fast as economic growth, while wages for the 99% have stagnated. That’s a very real problem that explains economic distress impacting a majority of people in this country. Why would that not be discussed with urgency? It’s also clear that the 1% have spent endless amounts of money to actively corrupt and sway the government, while deregulating and crafting policy to further benefit themselves. There are massive problems that lie with 1% of the top wealth holders in this country, so I don’t understand these criticisms for merely acknowledging and discussing this.
class interest isn't determined by how much wealth you generate, but by how you generate it. you either own the work capacity of others, or you sell your work capacity on the labor market. unless I'm missing a previously unknown third type of label? also the small business OWNER is part of the owner class, that is thrown out of the owner class into the worker class by the big business owner. and yes, there are differences among the workers but they have enough similarity to be coherently grouped into a class, and those differences are dwarfed by the differences between the worker's and the owners. just like there are ton's of different subtypes of owners of property who can coherently be grouped into owner's of property, so too can the worker's be coherently grouped into a class. that doesn't mean that different moments of class struggle won't emphasize the different needs of the different subtypes of worker's, but that they are still worker's, and not member's of the ruling class. this focus on idpol is indeed a red herring to the goals of making the working class the ruling class. and unless you are an owner, you should be able to see that. doesn't mean that idpol isn't important, just less important than that goal.
I love and clamour for more debates like this. Like she mentions, I would not usually focus more on this question but it's important we keep going deeper on it in this context. Having a venue where ideas are explored and definitions of words are opened up and examined before moving on was a breath of fresh air. These were to people seeking to explore ideas and get their meaning across and debate the roots that usually get ignored.
Amazing discussion as always, Gray's nuance is why I sub to this channel. This the kind of conversations we need to have and actually talk through if people gonna go forward together.
Krystal Moss a pseudonym for another Krystal 😲🤭😂
@@zainkhanrealtor8198 If yang got anything right sides ubi its decriminalizing all drugs.
@@krystalmoss7390 Andrew Yang is a grifter. Phony as a three dollar bill.
@@zainkhanrealtor8198 At least he didint just go back down the republican pipe line like Tulsi has.
BJG got wrecked by BUS. that was embarrassing.
I thought that Batya Ungar-Sargon made some great points that got me thinking. And she really presented the ideas in her book very well. I’m going to buy and read her book. Briahna Joy Gray did a great job of asking salient questions and making some excellent points as well.
As much as I agree with BJG, I would have liked to hear more from Batya Ungar-Sargon. I've seen her on a few online platforms and she seems to be articulating a perspective that is interesting and valid.
I like that BJG has an opposing point of view from her guest but I just wish she could express her view in a much shorter amount of time. I learned very little of the guest perspective.
well the word debating is in the video's title....
Because she’s platformed by anti-black class reductionist trolls
Agree. This was 80% Bri talking. Batya rarely spoke for more than 20 seconds without Bri interrupting her.
So frustrating and such a missed opportunity.
I don’t comment much but this to me was one of your best interviews. The topic was amazing and the mastery that both of you possess over each topic was amazing. And to also i add i love you as interviewer. The mere fact you let guest speak uninterrupted is dope to me. It’s a pleasure seeing two people be able to get their side of the arguement out without hostility even tho you guys disagreed. Keep doing what your doing. These are the type of real discussion our country needs to be having.
I really enjoyed this podcast. Hearing Batya's points helps me feel relieved that I am not the only one that has similar sentiments. One of the few things I definitely disagree with her however is the UBI and free education. We are undergoing a sky rocketing academic inflation and for many would enjoy the relief from the increasing costs of education. Things like UBI can help those who are food insecure and struggle between buying meals and or paying bills for example. I doubt it will have people just stay home and not room. It's going to give people a little financial room to breathe.
Crazy idea: what if free public higher education was understood as a public good per se and not solely as job training or a means of “social mobility”
great conversation. absolute substance as always. Batya made some great points, especially by fretting out the gap in perception between progressive "woke" left and actually working class black people in American. However, Briahna was absolutely right on with her retort to Batya's analysis of labor and work. Dignity in working routine jobs is a diminishing value as documented by polls that show a level of dissatisfaction with their jobs and it is not just wage. Also, currently, despite all the about working class jobs, there are tons of unfulfilled jobs in construction and truck driving, two areas that have been the stable of working class. What Briahna is speaking to is fulfillment and meaning, something that was not part of the previous incentive for work. But it is today. Also, Batya did not speak to the broken trust of how jobs have been arbitraged and made dispensable by a poor Wall Street quarter.
Slot of anti woke is because white neo liberal centrists co-opt and appropriate the terms for show and do absolutely nothing to make real changes and there is always an acknowledgement that those neo liberals are trash and cosplaying but at least they "aren't the leftist commies who wanna make America China by their extreme leftist views of...*checks notes* free healthcare, college...and- is this right?! .....legal WEED?!" SHIT we can't tell them that....let's instead focus on how those neo liberal assholes think you are stupid and dumb for being too poor to afford an education! P.s: a ton of black folks are conservative because many of them are Christians, a part of the low level and mid level corporate manager class, or are unjustly repelled by the LGBTQ movement and can't see past the culture war. Oh, and they live in a place where it's too uncomfortable to have to constantly argue with any white conservatives and so they may have to over compensate by code switching to not disappreable. Not to say there aren't many who genially believe in conservative social ideas.
@@jalhankaster
@@ThisIsMyHandle333 If that was true we wouldnt have so many people assuming that things like wokeness is whatever elites or corporations co opted it from activists as
as a former working class Christian fundamentalist conservative who has become a working class Marxist, i think that it's necessary for people to understand that corporate work is inherently counterproductive to their interests and inherently demeaning and exploitative. also, all jobs have to become dispensable in capitalism, due to the falling rate of profit. that's kind of central to our economic system. however, income doesn't need to be tied to employment, with a UBI. as someone whose income isn't tied to my employment, it is one of the best decisions I've ever made. having such a system would eliminate apparently 30% percent of all jobs that are meaningless to the people who have them, while vastly lowering the required amount of bureaucracy in our system, while then increasing the amount of personal work that now can be done by the people who couldn't have done it previously, due to having to acquire an income.
There's no dignity in working a job with no future. People need something to work toward. And to feel like they're having a tangible impact on the world around them. Elsewise they descend into nihilism
Also, if you have a guest on, let them talk. Stop interupting. Say what you gotta say, but let them speak for crying out loud.
What I’d love to see is the merging of colleges and trade schools, so it would be perfectly common to double major in plumbing and philosophy. Every thing is shaped by the system we live in. You can’t separate college-snobbery or blue-collar anti-intellectualism from the ills of our hierarchical society.
That would be so cold if plumbers could get philosophy degrees. What kind of politicians will start running for office if that happens? There's a very good reason people are against free college.
A very interesting interview, though I wish, Briahna, you would have let Ms. Ungar-Sargon talk more and without being interrupted. I'm guessing that you probably talked more than her throughout. Thanks for what are often stimulating talks.
Batya's argument against free higher education is the same old deficit nonsense we've been hearing from people like Joe Manchin: when it comes to public spending to improve this country, be it infrastructure, healthcare, education, etc., "who's gonna pay for it?" "Shouldn't we further inequality and destroy the lives of this country's youth so that they wouldn't be in 'debt' according to the laws we're purposely upholding?"
Thank you.
I know it's hard for you to conceptualize on the Left, but money is not the solution to all problems.
A productive people can sort themselves out with slow but constant efforts, even through generations, without being showered money.
@@TheControlBlue you seem fine with showering oligarchs with our money.
@@zia_kat you are blatantly wrong, but I can understand that a Communist would pathologically attribute all the ill intentions and ideas to his opposition.
I was against the bailouts. Those are the least capitalistic thing you can do. You don't have a market if a central actor determines who get to win or lose.
The hbcu stopped that movement
Thank you, I had been waiting for someone to have this discussion.
Intersectionality as a word with a definition vs it as a movement I think is the thing that really catches people up.
The whole book /interview may boil down to getting noticed by the folks at The Heritage Foundation
So...the idea that public universities should be free is elitist??? But...the belief that underpaid workers actually LOVE their wage slavery is NOT elitist???🤔
I am really sick of only considering Ivy league or pseudo ivy league graduates being considered the only people getting a decent college education. Some of us don't give a s*** about the ivy League and are doing quite fine in their careers and lives without an ivy League education and all that money spent for nothing but prestige. No offense to Brih or my Harvard graduate husband.
Lots of people get a great education it's what you do with it.
This was a fantastic conversation.
Thank you both.
Thank you so much for this interview, Brie! It was great up until the point about college-educated people not understanding the 'dignity of work' of the working class. That argument by Batya felt like bullshit because most of us, who went to college, also had to work minimum wage, highly manual labour, jobs while we were going to school, or before we went to school, or sometimes after we got our degrees. A lot of us still have to work these jobs to pay off our student loans. Free college is about giving everyone the opportunity. Conflating it with working-class labour is a false equivalency. We aren't an either/or - either we are college-educated or we understand the value of work - there is overlap all the way through the system. Free college would be good for EVERYONE.
I think you are cherry picking her points and ignoring the overall point she was making (which was a bit more generalized than it should have been). Yes, I did get a degree, worked full time (shit job) and went to school at night and at a lot of shit while doing it. I do know people that did it the more "traditional" way she is referring to -- this people are very liberal. Yes, I realize that is anecdotal.
@@bhbluebird "Liberal" here isn't very elucidatory - it's much more instructive to use a four quadrant political compass. Education correlates to libertarianism as opposed to authoritarianism and income correlates negatively to egalitarianism, but they're also multicollinear in that more educated people tend to earn more and wealthier people tend to be better educated.
So well said. Dignity in work doesn't mean people should have to do it to survive, lots of college educated people experience working class struggles in these veins.
I love the show! Your description of a janitor's job is demeaning. Janitorial work can be a great small business in addition to a good job for anyone looking for a job.
When you scratch a Leftist, you will usually find an elitist underneath.
There are also academics who, as she phrased it, want to work with human feces. Specialist doctors and scientists who understand our gastro tract, for example. I found them both in the wrong in that part of the discussion. But agree with Bri that the opportunity should still exist.
calm down bro she isn't demeaning you, she just wants you to have the option. you can literally still clean toilets after they make robots to do it. you can have dignity in anything, however unnecessary. just look at priests.
Great guest! I love when Briahna has guests on that we get to know better or get introduced to for the first time.
I always learn something from these interviews with guests that Briahna may not agree with on certain subjects.
"insufficiently intersectional" - wouldn't something that was "sufficiently intersectional" reduce everyone down to the unit of the individual, thereby eliminating the need to define oneself by one's identity? also, many people seem to equate "racism" with "disparity" and think that if a disparity exists, it must be due to racism or at least that means there is evidence that racism exists systemically. think that is a plausible idea but it is hard to figure out for which cases that idea hold and which cases it does not. bottom line - how do you know if you are discriminated against because of your immutable characteristics or because of your interests/personality that may be shaped by your immutable characteristics or because of your skill/competence or because of some other reason? It oversimplifies things to call it "racism" and that it can be "fixed" by government policy. It's a complicated issue that I really don't think we want the government wading in to. We need these discussions and we need to move forward but without the threat of force by government.
Great interview!
The cool thing about leftist is, if we can harness the circular conversations we will solve the energy crisis.
Her idea that free college is anti working class is beyond ignorant and frustrating.
I'm black and I was never surveyed about Defund the police. I support it. She's referencing corporate surveys.
Yep, all of the pew & ipsos & monmoth ect have major selection bias issues.
@@severdislike4222 Never seen anyone in the hood doing any surveys. I see Jahovah Witnesses. Maybe they should do the surveys.
Batya: X sends Y message, and that isn't going to land well on the people we are trying to help.
Brianna: No. X is way more sophisticated than that. [Goes on to give a great and reasoned explanation of x.]
What should happen next:
Batya: Yes, you and I know that. But that is just not the way any explanation of x the populace is given makes x sound. And the explanations they are being given almost seem designed NOT to make them sound as reasonably as you just put them.
This is a really good discussion. I can see where Batya is coming from, but I feel like she's drawing the lines in the wrong places and in weird ways. I understand the subtext argument she's making, and I've often made a similar argument. But I do it from the Left as opposed to a Right framework, so she really loses me at places. I also think there's a bit much Right-wing apologia on her side that may very well be more true of the base but to Bri's point certainly doesn't translate to the elite or the politicians that claim to represent.
An example of what I mean is this: Take the privilege and intersectionality argument. When was the last time you heard someone bring up broken homes, mental health, and ACEs (or Patrick Teahan's tricky families) brought up in the discussion from the outset, that would give straight white people a place to go in the discussion? It's almost exclusively brought up when a person is talking to someone from a group lower in the hierarchy as an attempt to win the oppression Olympics. It's almost exclusively used as a weapon to invalidate other people's struggles. That's massively irresponsible on our part and doesn't acknowledge the nuance with which most people experience their lives. So instead of doing away with the concept entirely, I would say add many many more intersections and bring those to the forefront of the discussion as well. Not to compare pain but to describe struggle.
She’s not making sense because she’s a troll pretending to be a populist when in reality she doesn’t care about minorities. She’s basically a soft spoken tucker carlson.
@@tap_water872 Maybe. I haven't seen much of her to tell if it's a true ideological lane or a grift yet. Some people are just self-assured in their ideosyncrasies. She did make a ton of concessions to the Left throughout the discussion and avoided some of the low-hanging fruit defenses a lot of bad faith actors on the right always use. I think those two things count for something. At any rate, I'd rather talk to her as a politician than McConnell.
@@tap_water872 A smarter more sly Tucker type. I see her as probing for rhetorical weakness.
Great conversation. Thank you
Ok. I would like to know how many people with labor intensive jobs would go to college if they could afford it? How many of these individuals after being educated would still choose to do those jobs?
I think I heard capitalism cackling-“People want the dignity of labor”🤔😳🤦🏻♀️clearly not a person who has experienced the “dignity” of labor in a while or for any significant period of time-insane thing to say!!!!
She's relaying what she's heard from interviewing and spending time with working class people. People like my dad who love working in construction and doing hands on labor
Convenient to ignore the 1996 telecomm act, media ownership, and the consolidation via state and corporate power. The structures of governance and economy are pointed downward--the targeting of the working class and the poor and underprivileged. Seems to be working fine for the privileged upper 10% of the class structure. Look at for whom this is working, that interest does not reveal itself, it is the self anointed class that embodies a "royal contempt" for the little people.
Who produced the beat for the podcast?
"I don't know about this tree" LOLOL
UBI is never the answer…….a job guarantee is.
I really wish folks would read these theories before they discuss them.
If that was possible we wouldnt have had a culture war to begin with. Sad thats not the case
Amen. Power to those who can make and fix the mechanical things around us.
According to Levatino, the most difficult part to extract is the head. He states, “A head in a baby that size is about the size of a large plum. You can’t see it…. You know you did it right if you crush down on the instrument [the Sopher clamp] and white material runs out of the cervix. That was the baby’s brains. Then you can pull out skull pieces.”
This conversation could have been mooted if Brie mentioned how progressives include free trade schools in their vision for higher education.
I would like to see you interviewed Yvette Carnell or tone talks. I really like your podcast.
Affinity group sessions are absolutely “critical race theory Praxis”. It’s the implementation of ideas that directly stem from critical race theory and offshoot ideas like intersectionality
Despite fundamental disagreements in our understanding of certain concepts, I agree with the main throughline, that it's ultimately irrelevant and easily utilized as a cultural cudgel against building up a broad class inertia that could propel us toward _actually materializing_ anything instead resigning ourselves to passive "cultural war" critiquer/spectator. The superstructure and democratic party exists solely to absorb such momentum and "melt it into air". If one wants to ground even further all the idpol stuff generally, it does indeed emerge from a capitulatory resignation from the failures of the left up to that point, the apotheosis of well-intentioned but reactionary countercultural idpol being the SDS/Weather Underground defined precisely by their lack of organization and structural understanding of class and thus inevitably more fractured/futile chaotic death throes of individualized resistance into pacified and domesticated obscurity.
But yeah as some guy noted, _"the philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."_
How does free college = no working class? European countries with free college don't have a working class?
Are we supposed to pretend the culprit here isn't capitalism? Batya Ungar-Sargon is trying to make a distinction where there is no difference.
Capitalism has worked well for 1,000's of years.
@@AQuietNight yeah 1000's of years in some economist's computer simulation maybe, but the actual system is barely a couple hundred years old.
@@princejellyfish3945 If you walked down the streets of ancient Babylon,
you would see sellers negotiating prices with buyers.
Capitalism and free markets at work.
After the Black Plague hit Europe, there was
a labor shortage.
Serfs actually bargained with the gentry for higher wages or better
working conditions.
Again, capitalism and free markets at work.
@@AQuietNight Capitalism is NOT a free market. It's an Authoritarian market where everything is decided by 12 board members, top down. Markets are NOT capitalism, because a small business is not highly financialized commodity trading. Capitalism is poison to genuinely free markets.
@@AQuietNight Lol nice sleight of hand. Markets have been at work for many many centuries, capitalism has not. Like this is basic shit, even for ardent capitalists, this basic fact is not disputed. Markets exist in practically every system of economic exchange, markets do not equal capitalism.
"I don't know about this tree." 15:39 :D
For a left critique of intersectionality, see Raju Das, "Identity Politics: A Marxist View," Class, Race and Corporate Power (2020).
Intersectionality only includes class insofar as class is conceptualized as an "identity" among other identities. That's not materialist analysis.
Batya needs to learn how our federal monetary system works FEDERAL TAX DOLLARS DO NOT FUND SPENDING. WE WENT OFF THE GOLD STANDARD IN 72 BATYA
essential = disposable
Does anyone know that theme song
I was raised in a very poor working-class household in Southern Appalachia (among what some might deride as "hillbillies") but eventually became the first in my family to graduate from college, so I've always felt like I've had a foot in both of these worlds - and, frankly, an overwhelming case of imposter syndrome in both.
Regarding Batya's claims about higher education being an elitist albatross that subverts the material interests of labor, I see what she's saying but find her argument flawed on several levels. Obviously the dignity and value of labor must be radically expanded, and the current state of higher education often seems to undermine that goal. But that elitism isn't an intrinsic attribute of education so much as a result of education being increasingly fetishized as an elite commodity within contemporary academia. De-commodifying that institution is essential to democratizing education, and would go a long way toward leveling the class hierarchies & value disparities among all forms of labor. It's a false dilemma that we have to choose between expanding access to education and ensuring the material prosperity of workers; they are two aspects of the same project. Something smells fishy - perhaps that stale red herring of austerity politics…
Her argument also relies on the same insulting & elitist assumptions as the academic meritocracy she's trying to critique, insofar as it is predicated on a caricature of working class people as being completely ignorant or dismissive of intellectual/cultural pursuits like philosophy, science, art, etc.. Such pursuits are not the exclusive birthright of the wealthy; that's just the hegemonic logic of a society wherein those pursuits are gatekept by institutions only accessible to the wealthy. I suspect her uncritical use of this trope belies a very shallow understanding of working class people. If she were to spend some time getting to know some of us on a human level, she might be surprised at the sheer amount of brilliant & talented folks working in blue collar jobs who genuinely value these allegedly "elitist" intellectual pursuits, and who do not find the idea of education inherently off-putting…
This is very well put and I completely agree. Because the impetus for free college politically is the cost, it often gets missed (even by its supporters) that part of the purpose is making education less elite. Matt lech on majority report often makes the point that we should all want a world where there’s education for its own sake throughout life. You’re a 50 year old nurse but you’ve been learning Russian and want to take classes in Russian literature - you should be able to. That’s a society I want to live in. And it’s a necessary part of making society more egalitarian. Also making the world more interesting and better - how much better would art be if it wasn’t limited to people willing to live in poverty and the children of the very rich?
She told on herself when she said that.
Sooooo Batya dislikes us being hung up on facile language, overwrought emotion, strawmanning while basing her critique of CRT on language, overwrought emotion, and misrepresentation?
OK sure. But what about the actual analysis, ideas and claims?
Yup
I don’t think she knows what these things mean but she doesn’t like how they make her feel
Sounds like white fragility. Oh wait…that triggers her. Seems like Robin DiAngelo was right.
This lady’s view of working and the “dignity of work” oozes privilege. She has no clue what she is talking about. The middle class of the 50s was built on the GI bill and the fact that college was free or nearly free for so many.
Only 6% of the population earned bachelor's degrees in 1950. That did not build the middle class. High wage union jobs built the middle class.
I wish people would STOP assuming the working class is socially conservative. Legalizing cannabis, abortion rights, marriage equality etc. are ALL very popular with the public, so why is the media spinning that we are such a socially conservative country? Being against PC is NOT mean one is socially conservative.
I am proud to be a two-time college dropout. Why proud? Because I realized that I didn’t need to take required classes that I didn’t need in order to get a degree that I believe I did not and do not need. I also dropped out of court reporting school (when I was taking dictation at 180-200 wpm), but that was because I was and am both unbearably shy and unstoppably outspoken - it’s an Aspie thing. I don’t function well in a populated environment. I denied it for two years but when I got close to graduating, reality hit hard. In all, I’ve taken classes at community colleges … twice, at court reporting school, at universities … twice, and I actually graduated from a night-time paralegal school (while working as a legal secretary during the day) - I received a certificate of completion; however, I had such disdain for the teachers and the curriculum that I tore the certificate into shreds and trashed it.
My working career was first as an office temp, and then as a secretary at two law firms. I love typing, repetitive tasks, editing/proofreading, and talking on the phone, so I really enjoyed secretarial work. When I developed bilateral carpal tunnel syndrome, my career was essentially over and I was forced out of the labor pool. I was relieved that I no longer had to deal with other people. As Sartre said: L’enfer, c’est les autres. Amen to that!
I’ve always held ALL workers in great respect. I appreciated the clean workplaces, courtesy of the janitors; all the way to the men and women who dispose of my trash once a week - have you ever considered what would happen if trash kept piling up, with no one to remove it?
Every time I turn on a faucet or use the bathroom, I’m thankful for indoor plumbing. Every time I turn on anything electrical, I’m so thankful for electricity, in a way that most people think about it only when their power goes out.
In the same way, I’m concerned about my community, my country, and the world. I want every thinking person to have the best education possible. That K-12 curriculum includes: philosophy, critical thinking, and how to formulate proper, pertinent questions. In fact, I’ve written a short essay, My Ideal K-12 Public School Toolkit, to explain what’s wrong with Education As We Know It and to postulate Education As It Should Be. An educated populace is important as protection against those who would take advantage of the uneducated by, e.g., passing restrictive legislation making it difficult to vote, by using knowledge gained from their political positions regulating companies and corporations to engage in insider trading. All the way down to knowing what members of local city councils and school boards are up to. When people know how to think for themselves, it’s a lot harder for would-be dictators (large and small) to persuade with spurious claims.
I don't think I've ever heard someone so condescendingly describe the working "not built for school" class, while attempting so ham-fistedly to advocate for them ... by denying them free college.
What are we really talking about here. K thru 12 ok.. now we need K thru 16. why ? because it is a far more complicated world. Tale a few steps back see some trees
If Bri believes that "Diversity Equity and Inclusion" isn't CRT, then she ought to articulate what DEI is and the problems with it.
Clearly stated that it serves an HR purpose but isn’t tailored to do any real work to address racism in the world.
@@bjgray11 You need to clearly name the enemy, "Diversity Equity Inclusion". That is the only way to distinguish it from CRT.
She is part of the problem
Love both of y’all!