They have left the scriptures. I admire this pastor for his actions. You can see the strain this is causing in his voice and expressions. May God lead he and his congregation to a new denomination, and through the grieving process.
Yes, it's impossible to see how God could bless these "leaders" who refuse to stand on Scripture in these matters. What's more alarming is how few of them when confronted with their error, repent of it.
There are. In Canada, Pastor Artur Palowski did when the health people came in to enforce Covid policy during his church service. Sadly, folks like him tend to be an anomaly in our day. Many pastor’s don’t want the fallout that happens when they actively guard their congregation against such things. They tend to be vilified and dragged through the mud, or even prosecuted. Definitely persecuted in various ways. We sure need to pray for these men to have the courage and strength to step into the fray, and for the rest of us to join and support them in the battle. Truth matters.
Jon's tempered, methodical means of investigation into all these unbiblical assaults on the Church is so refreshing. The reality is here for all to see. Prayerfully more congregants in these wayward denominations will act Biblically in preservation of The Truth, their communities and their own families and refuse to accept these deceptions.
I used to go to an Evangelical Free Church and chose to leave after we had a “fireside chat” about racism and privilege (this was around the time of George Floyd).
Wow! Our church did that chat too and it was so weird. So, were they led or encouraged to do that by the EFCA (so it seems 😕)?? Ever since then, I’ve noticed they’ve become anti-patriotic, anti-conservative...their posted position papers are left leaning or very middle ground so as not to really take a stand. I’ve been feeling uneasy since their fireside chat on racism. Everything this pastor said resonates with what I’m seeing and it’s sad. Finding another church is the problem. We looked for a bit, and so did others in our church. Some started a home church because there just wasn’t a good alternative. Society is evidence of how far the church in America has fallen.
Same here but it was an SBC church. We moved to an "unwoke" SBC church. That being said we are also dealing with the SBC elites and Christian feminism. Not leaving yet because of the grassroots Conservative Baptist Network/CBN within the Convention. As CBN grows stronger in numbers hopefully, prayerfully the Lord will turn the ship back to the "ancient paths." We are seeking to do as Jude instructs, "contend earnestly for the faith."
This was so powerful! So thankful to have this reasoned and thoughtful presentation of the issues affecting the evangelical free churches and so many other churches. I thank God for this ministry!!!
This is really disappointing. The EFCA is an organization I’ve considered looking into more but wasn’t sure where they stood on these issues. Thank you for bringing this to light, Jon. Thank you, Pastor Craig Chambers, for exposing these unfruitful works of darkness so that we all know what agenda is being pushed by the executive level of leadership.
I was seriously thinking of trying an efca church here! I just want a biblical Christ following church without focusing on one biblical text to form their denomination!
@@KM-zn3lx i currently apart of an EFCA, its not woke at all and its in a very conservative area. It breaks my heart that theres enemies at upper leadership that want to distort Gods word.. I would recommend still trying it out. Ive been to many, many churches in my life and efc has been the best.
@@coolbeans6148 The local EFCA church is a good place to start. Many are not so attached to the National Leadership and are not going the wrong direction. Still, the deceitful manner in which the (now denomination) has got to be where it is at still makes what is said and what is practiced two different things.
@@coolbeans6148Hey there! I wonder if theres a difference between Efca and just efc? I was going to tey a church without the America added to it. Thanks!
We attended a EFC for a while until they proudly announced that they chose "the radical neutral" on "divisive topics". When we asked the pastor if they believed that abortion was murder, they said they have no opinion. That's not "radical". That's cowardice and a severe lack of wisdom.
1:15:00 My response to a charge of "Christian nationalism" would be the same as my response to a charge of legalism (or, for that matter, a charge of racism): 1. Define it; 2. Show from scripture why it, as you've defined it, is wrong; and 3. Show how and where I'm doing it. Only then do we have something to discuss.
We just had to leave our church family of years aling with many other over all this.... we are very thankful and encouraged by the Lords leading us to church that Jeff Kliewer pastors. His book is excellant and truth needs to be preached by more brave Christ warriors. God will use all this for his good.
@Michael Ward Perhaps it is what that is taught in the Christian colleges, receives a deeper teaching in the seminaries, from which our pastors come to our churches, etc.
When we compromise ourselves to reach the world for Jesus, we find that we aren't reaching the world at all, but that the world is reaching us. "No matter how sincere a man may be, and however carefully he guards against further theological concessions they are inevitable once inerrancy is given up. Francis Schaeffer has told conferees at L'Abri that "the generation of those who first gave up biblical inerrancy may have a warm evangelical background and real personal relationships with Jesus Christ so that they can 'live theologically' on the basis of their limited-inerrancy viewpoint. But what happens when the next generation tries to build on that foundation?" I am saying that whether it takes five or fifty years any denomination (or church) or parachurch group that forsakes inerrancy will end up shipwrecked. It is impossible to prevent the surrender of other important doctrinal teachings of the Word of God when inerrancy is gone." (Harold Lindsell - The Battle For The Bible, 1976)
I had my family in an Evangelical Free church as a baby believer. Lots of very liberal practices such as a woman giving benedictions, lots of talk about “human flourishing”, lots of Hillsong music, and the gospel to them was “doing life” together in Gospel Communities where we ate and prayed together weekly and told our stories. There was lots of out of context scriptures, and the belief that the gifts and mission of the 12 Apostles and Prophets of old is alive today in certain leaders. Beth Moore and Jen Wilkin women’s Bible studies, etc. I loved the people but just grew in grace and knowledge and left. This was in Albuquerque which is obviously a very liberal town so maybe it was on the worse end of things, but the parishioners in our gospel community supported liberal politics, especially regarding illegal immigration, and some were even pro-choice
Sorrowful for your experience there, "Mama." I am so encouraged by your discernment, though, and pray you continue to grow more in grace and knowledge as you follow the Lord who gave us everything needed for life and godliness in the God-breathed Scriptures.
My wife and I were members at an EFCA church for about 6 years, and we left it about 6 years ago. I had come to true salvation before joining this church, but over time as my biblical convictions settled in, such as accepting the doctrines of grace, 6-day creationism, etc., I was finding it harder and harder to stay. I felt I wanted to be part of a church with which I could identify more deeply with their doctrinal statement, which of necessity would be more comprehensive. In any case, I was just following my convictions in the Lord. Transformational churches? That is straight out of the Emerging Church's idea of traditional--->transitional--->transformational churches. Even though this movement has faded away a good bit, it is still around. And the leaven disseminated by these apostates is still leavening and destroying churches, denominations, etc. When the leadership of denominations, associations, and so on are notified of these influences coming in, 99% of the time they blown off, sometimes because they have already bought into it. It has happened time and time and time again. Some people are slow learners, or otherwise have little to no discernment. This is a sad indictment of many church leaders. It should not be.
Disgusting that they are calling for a fake ‘repentance’. I’m far more certain they are really looking for reparations. This enterprise has to be profitable and produce tangible results somehow.
God convicts with specific issues. The Devils accusations are always vague, with no resolution possible. Those who do the latter are wolves who have come in and are doing violence with their accusations which run contrary to the Gospel. Read Paul's admonitions and counsel to the elders at Ephesus. They are the ones who should be reprimanded and if necessary disciplined. They are in error.
I am saddened, but not surprised. The EV Free churches and the EV Covenant churches are very similar and have a similar history, but it's been my impression that the EV Covenant churches began their downgrade a number of years earlier than even the EV Free churches. So it figures that the EV Free churches are being pulled in the direction of that siren song.
EFCA churches in my area (northern IL) are really independent and their character is defined by their individual pastors and elder boards. Some are better than others based on the humans running things. Their statements of faiths seem fine. Each one I know of does their own sermon each week and their ministries are totally different. No central direction that I can see.
The same is true of the EFCA church I pastor. We were not 'hearing' the National or the District's influence, even though it was there. That is mainly because things had become tenuous between the DS and me.
Will any denomination survive the cultural shift in the US? I feel like denominations with a national presence are the most vulnerable because there's a lot more pressure there to comply with cultural influences than in particular regions. Additionally, much of the leadership are elite adjacent, meaning they seem to seek recognition from the mainstream cultural elites. I think the political future of America is probably going to be some sort of Balkanization, and, likewise, something like that may have to be adopted by various denominations too if they want to survive.
Has any denomination survived for centuries, or decades even, and not become compromised? A denomination will end up splitting into a liberal wing and a biblical, conservative wing. And then it just a matter of time before the biblical one has to split because of liberalism; lather, rinse, repeat. Satan could own and operate 99.9% of the visible church, and would still come after the 0.1% because he hates God and God's people. I think there are some things Christians need to learn.
Even non denominational churches push certain things such as no rapture, the book of Revelation is allegorical, gifts have ceased, etc.! I don't care if pastors have different views on these as long as they point out there are other Biblical scholars who disagree! Don't just make fun of Charasmatics when there's different styles of Charasmatics. Don't call lgbtq, "those people," pray for them. Also fix your own gluttony issues.
The EFCA's 'big tent' was originally dispensational premillennial in its view. Now it is whatever millennial view one holds to, which should not separate brothers as long as we can hold discussions over the Scripture without anger. That being said, what you indicated by minimizing biblical prophecy is the nonchalance toward the return of our Lord in that no views are even allowed an audience for fear of offending someone. I am premillennial, but appreciate the other views and especially the anticipation of the return of our Lord Jesus and how that informs our living for Him right now. We must be engaged in Scripture on this major teaching of the Word as essential to our life's practice.
I am a pastor in the northern plains district and I can say with confidence that our district is not woke. In fact when our new DS came in several years ago I talked to him personally about this. This is not something that is in every district in the EFCA.
I hope that is now the case, brother. I just received an email from another Pastor in Nebraska (your District) whose church, and he, left the EFCA over these issues two years ago.
Jay, as a long term member of Desert Hills Bible Church (formerly Desert Hills Evangelical Free Church) mentioned at the 56:00 minute mark, I can tell you the direction of the EFCA leadership is the definition of woke. The elders of our church spoke to multiple leaders of the national EFCA organization at length and they acknowledged the direction of accepting women pastors, platforming women pastors at their conference, LGBTQ acceptance, supporting BLM, trying to encourage churches to be racially diverse, and trying to include people who wrote antichristian literature as explained during my pastor's open letter to the EFCA. The direction the EFCA has chosen is worldly, and when confronted with Scripture, the leadership rejected it. You may not be accepting the position the EFCA has taken, but they are literally the definition of woke.
What about the Dallas Statement that pastors from the EFCA have signed? Is this credible? Are church members even aware of it? Do pastors openly speak on what is going on in this organization?
I really appreciate his last comments. We are older and we sense the time for proclaiming the Gospel is short and we should focus on that and not become embroiled in an unnecessary conflict.
It’s not a surprise to me…I’ve seen much to be concerned about for at least the last 12 years or so. We left when our efc started down the WillowCreek and PurposeDriven way. The other ones in our area also started embracing yoga, contemplative prayer (Spiritual Formation)m and then around the same time 2010 I noticed the Denomination was also promoting social justice and illegal immigration in some of its programs. I will not attend the local ones that are healthy because they won’t come out from under the parent Denomination. Same with SBC. Also, the connection to Ed Stetzer and their agreeing with him in changing the National Denomination’s Statement of Faith on eschatology.
@@craigchambers4183 thank you for speaking out…no one took my concerns seriously. I was just a small minnow in a big ocean of fish. It’s truly heartbreaking what has happened to the denomination as well as others. Prayers for you!
The church you were in could very well have been as you describe. Many still are. I don't know if they are the 'most' or not, but the problem certainly lays at the door of many, and in particular with the National Office.
Listening to this reminds of a same pattern I has watched over the years. A path denominations take of losing truth of God's word. The upper leadership keep introduction certain agendas till they get what they want.The churches end up losing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and make another gospel which is no gospel at all. It is called deception. A little leaven leavens the whole.
Our local EFCA "pastor" told the story of Pontius Pilate on Good Friday, then set up basins of water at each corner of the sanctuary and told members to go wash their hand like Pilate...amazing...have NOT been back!!
I’m very fortunate that my church, while it is EVFree, is one of the very few that has refused to turn to any kind of teaching that is outside of scripture (including Wokeness, Social Justice, etc.)
@@craigchambers4183 Absolutely. They have a UA-cam channel and they have connections with Grace Community Church in SoCal. NorthCreek Church in Walnut Creek.
@@ChewMadeNew It's always helpful to share information, to make thing open and understandable. I don't know about GCC in Southern Cal - are you saying they are connected to John MacArthur? On the face of it, I highly doubt that. Thanks!
@@craigchambers4183 I’m saying that they have people who used to go there when they lived in SoCal. They also have masters university and seminary grads on staff.
Good question about where sound, Bblcal Christians from these off the rails denominations are going? May God raise up sound churches. He has in the past…think of the Reformation. Also the Great Ejection in the UK and what came out of that. Let us pray!!!
It seems to often be the case that when a denomination goes south, it's inevitably the more conservative congregations that are forced to leave. A huge problem with this is that with a lot of denominational structures, the conservative congregations end up ceding their property and financial interests to the liberal wolves in sheep's clothing, leaving many of them having to start from scratch. If I'm not mistaken, that's what happened in the '70s when the Presbyterians split and became the PCUSA (liberal wing) and the PCA (conservative wing) - the PCUSA got the lion's share of the property and financial interests that congregational members had donated to over the years. If/when the PCA splits because of the woman question and/or homosexual issues, I expect a similar thing to happen. And most likely the same basic thing will happen within the SBC as they continue to hemorrhage conservative congregations (although I confess I don't really know much about SBC polity, so perhaps there are safeguards within that denominational structure to prevent such pillaging).
Perhaps a description at the beginning of the History: it grew out if the Holiness, Wesleyan tradition Swedish Covenant Church, North Park University they are redefining inerrancy. They have passed resolutions on racial integration years ago. They have some significant documents tgat would not line up with the Chicago Declaration on inerrancy in 1979. R.C. Sproul amd John Macarther D A. Carsen.
We left the evangelical covenant about 3years ago. I understood much less of what was going on, and we left because we moved, but north park university was something to be avoided and the last three years have solidified our decision. Naively, we chose an SBC church! 😂. I thought at the time, “such foolishness won’t be tolerated in the SBC.” Alas. Our congregation is not woke, but how much the leadership understands of the current situation and what they decide to do, I don’t know.
You are referring to the Evangelical Covenant Church, brother. I'm referring to the Evangelical Free Church. I think many EFCA churches, or pastors would still line up with Chicago, Danvers/Nashville and other biblical confessions in these matters. Probably you can have a 'tell' come up with EFCA guys if asked about their thoughts on John MacArthur: strong reactions against him (as in pro-Beth Moore, etc) verses he's sound even if we don't agree on everything/love his teaching! response.
As has been noted, your reference to North Park is the Evangelical Covenant Church - and what a hot mess North Park and the ECC are. I am in process of leaving an ECC church, several years too late I admit, but you wouldn’t have to dig up a blog article here or there to recognize what has been happening there. It’s openly, proudly woke. My previous pastor of many years was biblically rooted, and I paid little attention to the denomination. But when he left, I came to see how bad things were. Ironically, I just visited an EFCA church this past Sunday and found it very refreshing. Hopefully it is not too late to turn the tide in this denomination like it is in the ECC.
@@JamesAylard Obviously I concluded that the EFCA's leadership has covered, ignored and repudiated (in claim only) the issues raised. So has many EFCA pastors. But I also recognized that not all have gone this route. I hope the one you visited is not defiled by such things. Still, I also concluded (for myself alone) that because of these actions (not always by their words) they are not only biblically unsound in regards to sufficiency of Scripture alone, but that it has gone so far as to be resistant to repentance so as to return to sound doctrinal practice, and therefore shall not be turned back. I am glad for your hope, but I think that same hope that was in the SBC illustrates the end game will turn out to be unrepresentative of the truth of God's Word. I am completely open to be proved wrong and for your hope to be proved right. May our God judge these things and purify His church within the EFCA.
@@craigchambers4183 I have no doubt that you weighed and prayed over these matters carefully and thoroughly. As Jon Harrison expressed in your interview with him, it isn’t clear to me, either, how the administration of the EFCA is structured and what efforts you or others may have already attempted. That leaves the question open in my mind whether a dedicated group of pastors and lay people could fight and reverse the rot before too much of the organizational integrity has been compromised. Your conclusion seems to be that too much has already been compromised making repair impossible, just as seems to be the case already in the SBC and the ECC. The number and degree of Evangelical denominations that seem to have been severely undermined, if not ruined, by wokeness, seemingly all within a few short years, keeps me scratching my head as to how? Was the rot always there, but beneath the surface? Or were the events of the last few years really enough to lead so many faithful men and women into such depths of compromise?
Update: My ordination was officially revoked this week by the EFCA. This podcast was considered by them to not be Christ-honoring, but they decided not to charge and defrock me. I had already answered this, and am willing to send my view to any who might have interest, along with documentation. To make this short, their accusation is a reflection on them and their processes which do not match the Word. Regardless, it is both sad and a relief to be no longer associated in ministry with the EFCA national and district leadership. I remain as pastor of the EFCA church that I have been with the past 18 years, and fond of the others that came before during my 34 year association.
@@stacydelrio1433 I am sorry to hear that @stacydelrio. I do think the Lord has a place for you that could be near enough. No church will meet all you might expect, but there remains those who are not so compromised with the world and its system. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help, and just prayed for you.
The EFCA did begin with Arminian perspectives, and round about the time I entered many were, like myself, understanding the doctrines of grace. So, it is not 'calvinism' that has taken people in this direction, though a perversion of it has been co-opted by some 'progressive' "Christians." The one is not connected to the other.
@@craigchambers4183 so it is just a coincidence that both after the EFCA and the SBC went Calvinistic, they also started going woke? I only know the Southern Baptist context of this happening, but noticed shared patterns by the Calvinism and woke. Both woke and Calvinism are academically driven; both have a distain towards the common man and his common sense understandings of free will, responsibility, morality, and language; both re-interpret language subtly push their agenda; both use deception to spread; both seek to change the young who go to educational institutions (university or seminary); both hide what they are doing because most of the people who pay for their institutions do not hold these beliefs; both often first spread through the youth departments; and both in churches seek spread their agenda with a a top down/authoritarian/deceptive/ approach. Interestingly, much of this behavior was also done by the liberals who took over Methodism years ago according to Thomas Oden. Back when I left Calvinism almost 15 years ago, I would call many of the reformed thinkers “right wing liberals.“ This is because they thought like liberals but had conservative content. Now I see how easy it is for them to make the shift in content, too.
@@paulchamberlain4810 I was only noting that there is not a connection. I see you have a different agenda to argue against it, and I did not intend to enter into some argument over it. All I will say is that every SBC pastor I know who has opposed being 'woke' is Reformed. Of those leaving or having left the EFCA, I do not know all their understandings on this, but of the ones I do know, they are also Reformed. I am Reformed, I am not 'woke.' It is not a narrative than can be a blanket statement as all these men and congregations believe the Word and its sufficiency. I am sorry for your experience.
@@craigchambers4183 I agree not all reformed are woke and there are reformed pastors who strongly speak out against it. I have watched UA-cam videos by reformed people opposing it. I was noting that Calvinism was a precursor to the woke movement in these two Evangelical organizations, at least in the southern Baptist context Calvinists where at the sharp end, and that both of these movements were spread by similar patterns. Also, I have yet to hear any of these reformed pastors who are condemning how the woke movement is spread condemn how Calvinism was/is spread through top down and deceptive tactics like stealth Calvinism (Calvinist pastor candidates lying to steal non-Calvinist churches). When that happened to my church, I left the SBC. This gives the impression that they don’t care about these dirty tactics, they only care when they are used against them. There are and were non-Calvinist pastors standing up against these type of things. Unfortunately, the Calvinists seem late to the game. For example, Peter Lumpkins, a strong non-Calvinist, questioned Al Molher about these types of things back at the 2011 convention (You can find it on UA-cam, I don’t know if they let links be shared here). The only response I saw from the Calvinist side at the time was mocking Peter and claiming he got punked by Molher. You can also compare how concerns about Calvinist Russell Moore being appointed president of the ERLC were dismissed when he replaced the conservative non-Calvinist Richard Land. And we all saw how that turned out. So yes, there are reformed people strongly standing up against the woke. Unfortunately, they largely only started doing so after Calvinists gained dominance in the SBC and any non-Calvinist movement was destroyed. I’ve wondered if their Calvinism blind them to what their fellow Calvinists were doing? Or they were disappointed they were not included in the division of the spoils? Or they thought they could control the left wing element of their movement to their advantage? Or they thought the liberalism was worth the spread of Calvinism? I don’t know… if Calvinist had joined with us non-Calvinists over 10 years ago to stop this problem, it probably wouldn’t be a problem. But then Calvinism wouldn’t have spread as well either, so maybe they took that into account in their decision not to make a stand back then? Again, I don’t know…
@@paulchamberlain4810 I'm a johnnie-come-lately in terms of personalities and names, but I see how you follow the path. Bad calvinist pastors exist, and so do bad non-calvinists. Still sorry for your bad experiences, and glad for the good ones.
Not sure if it is a united group of churches. Many churches go by the name Mosaic, I only know of the one 'mega' church that hosts things like you can see in the references. The Founding Pastor/church planter who started that church (now goes by the title Directional Leader) is Mark DeYmaz at Mosaic Church, central Arkansas. You can read about that conference in the references, but the website is easily available: Mark DeYmaz Mosiac Church. He is also know as the President (on Zoom) and Executive Assistant, Author, and Movement Leader.
On the gender issue, Paul did not allow a woman to rule over men. That idea comes out of the image of God where His masculine leads His feminine. Women are to teach women and children and be respectful and show deference to the masculine. That role modeling is essential to the correct gender modeling for marriages, families and the gender formation in the young and to the world. Correct gender functioning and modeling is part of discipleship based on the immutable image of God.
Where are we told to show deference to the “masculine?” Can you chapter and verse me on this? Husbands, elders in the church, where else? I owe no deference to you, my brother, unless you lead my church. Teaching women and children is hardly deferential. It is a high calling and a privilege.
@@karigross4596 Show your chapter and verse where in Scripture there was a female Pastor. I'm not being mean just want to see your theological view of leadership in The Church.
@@fuzfire you misunderstand me. I am fully complementarian. Your wording implied I, as a woman, are required to “show deference” to the “masculine.” I am in submission to my husband and elders, but to no one else based on their sex.
“His masculine leads his feminine” is anthropocentric and wrong. God does not have feminine qualities. God as the man Christ has only masculine qualities. Arguably the divine has neither, which is NOT saying he’s androgynous or gender less. Is saying “God is not a man that he should lie, or a son of man that he should change his mind.” Both male and female are made in the image of God, but pay very close attention: male and female are CREATED. That means they’re not part of the eternal nature of God. God created man first and identifies with masculine pronouns because masculinity is a more direct reflection of God’s attributes. But it is a colossal mistake to think that masculinity as exhibited by men **is a divine attribute,** and it’s even worse of a mistake to think that femininity is. Gender is not rooted in the Trinity, it’s rooted in the relationship of Christ to the church.
Though I grant that you said his image which isn’t technically wrong but you implied it’s reflective of his attributes, which is why I pushed back. It sounded EFS
The Apostle Paul settled the slavery issue once and for all in writing the letter to Philemon. Just tesch that and move on. Church tradition says that the former slave Onesomois went on to become a Bishop maybe at Ephesus.
The EFCA is following the Emergent Missional movement...social justice, contemplative spirituality under spiritual Formation, LGTBQ welcoming. Been researching this since 2019 and we left our church after being there 23 years. The pastor was bringing in "missional micro church" junk.
I received a book from our District's missions fellow back in 2007: "Breaking the Missional Code," by Ed Stetzer. Long on charts, graphs, bubbles, data, etc. and short on biblical texts. Seems like every book I received and/or was directed to were also pragmatic, like "Bridging the Diversity Gap" by Alvin Sanders (2013) and "Becoming a Church the Cares Well for the Abused" Handbook, Brad Hambrick General Editor, (2019). The latter was reviewed by Jonathan Harris about a year in the episode "The Caring Well Initiative."
@@craigchambers4183 Ed Stetzer is a total missional church movement guy, very ecumenical, social justice etc. Other names to watch for are Alan Hirsch, Michael Frost, Caesar Kalinowski, Rob Wegner...
Is there a difference between EFCA and EFC? I went to an EFCA and was alarmed at notes of Predestination from a lay person. I was thinking of going to an EFC today and wondered if there was a difference. Anyone who can answer almost 2 yes later?! Haha!
When did Jesus, Paul, or anyone else tell a group of people to collectively repent of the sins of their society, to repent of someone else's sin? Am I in sin, and therefore to repent of the fact that I have nearly no melanin in my skin? And, how do I turn from that sin and follow Jesus? Or, if that is in fact sin, is that actually the unforgivable sin that Jesus spoke about, and not blasphemy against the Spirit?
Have u thought about releasing highlight clips of 5 minutes? That’s what most show formats like this do. Love ur content but sometimes there’s just a ton of filler u do and short clips would draw in more ppl
Yknow, I might consider doing that myself if Jon doesn’t mind. Right now I’ve dabbled with editing and my computer is too burdensome to do much with, but since I watch his videos consistently I could note highlights for myself to cut later, to promote for sharing and getting the message out more. Not for self promotion. That said, the subject matter fits perfectly with the username I picked for myself :D
The IFCA is active in CO. Probably a good alternative to the EFCA of course. I haven't watched the video yet. I just see Chambers is from Pueblo West, Colorado.
I had considered IFCA prior than associating with the EFCA back in the 80's. There are a couple of reasons that they would not accept me, one is the pre-trib position they have that I do not; I am premil, but not pretrib in my understanding, and unless I change those 2.5 years of difference I do not qualify. I really do like them, and John MacArthur holds his ordination with them.
@Craig Chambers Thanks for the note brother. I know of regular baptists S/SW of Pueblo. Maybe you're tracking those as well. Keep pressing onward. I just bought J. Benziger's book "Stand" on this topic. Sounds like that's what you're doing.
I was at an efca church for 17 years. I can safely say that the efca has a woke trojan horse element already in place. it may have already gone entirely woke from the top
They are being told to teach the Word concerning what a godly wife and mother are called to be in their home, in their community etc. As a woman I am to look to my husband, elders and pastor for the truth of the Word.
"Secondary Issues": I find no place in the bible where it witnesses that any teaching is "secondary" in concern. Not to be extreme, I understand that there are some things the bible says which honesty would demand that no one can give an iron clad interpretation, and so on the narrow issue I may have to say that I am willing to fellowship in a range of possible interpretations. But that doesn't make the difficult scripture of second importance, just my interpretation of it. I believe the term "secondary issue" is just a cover for disobedient elders to justify disobedient sheep and mutually avoid the pain of correction. A high minded sounding label for passive avoidance will not fool the Chief Shepherd.
When the inspiration, the sufficiency, and the authority of Scripture is denied it's replaced with the word of men. "Once the reliability of God's revelation in the historical Christ of Scripture is put in question, as it was in the 18th and 19th Century thought, secular theology is the only consistent possibility: in rejecting God's revelation, man puts himself in God's place: now all that is required is to work out the implications of man's centrality. Naturally, God will take a back seat or be redefined in terms of man's interest: naturally, human social action will become all-important: naturally, (as in the Death of God advocate William Hamilton), Jesus will be transmuted into a humanistic "place to be" and "revelation" will now be found in sexual satisfaction and the amelioration of the ills of society." (John Warwick Montgomery - The Suicide of Christian Theology, 1970)
I feel sad. I think I need to leave the pentacostal church. I didn't join cuz it didn't feel right. Women pastors, seeking gifts of the spirit, are the biggest that bother me. I don't like the worship music has some Hillsong and Bethel.
As an association I think G3 is tops. No mechanism as a denomination, so ordination not overseen. Its more of an added thing to who you are already associated with denominationally/movement wise.
The one thing I don't like is the church is all they talk is Jesus is coming this we know but they fail to tell you that Satan will come first then Jesus will come
I attend an Efree church and it is opposite of everything you said. It is true to the word of God. And not giving into societies point of view. And I believe most Efree churches are this way. I do not know when we as evangelicals are going to stop looking at ways to attack eachother and focus more on a hurt lost and dying world.
If God's plan for HIS church is to not allow a woman to be in a pastoral position over men, and His revealed plan for the church is laid out in scripture, a man, or a woman, who believes it's perfectly fine to thwart God's plan for HIS church should absolutely not be in any pastoral position.
Because Woke is your religion and you are happy to USE Christianity to accomplish your lying secular faith & love movement. Highly "problematic," as Woke say.
How sad to have a guest speak authoritatively on a program about the EFCA when he is clearly ignorant of the EFCA. Vet your guests or invite an expert who can speak accurately about the subject.
I love seeing all you racists and bigots coming together and crying about people caring for their neighbor. Every comment on this thread is about how folks were happy to leave their church because they were preaching love and acceptance and they consider that woke. Thank you so much for the hours of contact that I am going to be able to milk from this one video on my channel
Pastor Craig Chambers points out something that is lost on many people who label themselves fol- lowers of the SON YESHUA HAMASHIACH.Many are not going woke,they are going works 🙄 We are being tested.Are we building our foundation on the rock of Grace from ADONAI alone,Faith in the sacrifice of the Cross alone,in the blood of 🧬 The SON YESHUA HAMASHIACH alone.Or is our foundation built on the sand of what we believe, and do ♨️🕊 🔥
Checkout Creo Collective this group I believe is why the EFCA changed the statement of faith a few years ago from being premillienial to "his glorious return"...
They have left the scriptures. I admire this pastor for his actions. You can see the strain this is causing in his voice and expressions. May God lead he and his congregation to a new denomination, and through the grieving process.
Yes, it's impossible to see how God could bless these "leaders" who refuse to stand on Scripture in these matters. What's more alarming is how few of them when confronted with their error, repent of it.
As a member of an EFCA church, this breaks my heart.
Are there no leaders that are bold enough to stand up and guard their flocks anymore?
There are. In Canada, Pastor Artur Palowski did when the health people came in to enforce Covid policy during his church service. Sadly, folks like him tend to be an anomaly in our day. Many pastor’s don’t want the fallout that happens when they actively guard their congregation against such things. They tend to be vilified and dragged through the mud, or even prosecuted. Definitely persecuted in various ways. We sure need to pray for these men to have the courage and strength to step into the fray, and for the rest of us to join and support them in the battle. Truth matters.
Jon's tempered, methodical means of investigation into all these unbiblical assaults on the Church is so refreshing. The reality is here for all to see. Prayerfully more congregants in these wayward denominations will act Biblically in preservation of The Truth, their communities and their own families and refuse to accept these deceptions.
I used to go to an Evangelical Free Church and chose to leave after we had a “fireside chat” about racism and privilege (this was around the time of George Floyd).
Same here, more or less. I'm a Calvary Chapel guy now. As soon as that stuff creeped in, it was time to leave.
Same
Wow! Our church did that chat too and it was so weird. So, were they led or encouraged to do that by the EFCA (so it seems 😕)?? Ever since then, I’ve noticed they’ve become anti-patriotic, anti-conservative...their posted position papers are left leaning or very middle ground so as not to really take a stand. I’ve been feeling uneasy since their fireside chat on racism. Everything this pastor said resonates with what I’m seeing and it’s sad. Finding another church is the problem. We looked for a bit, and so did others in our church. Some started a home church because there just wasn’t a good alternative. Society is evidence of how far the church in America has fallen.
@@ajstevens9549 Maybe we actually went to the same church? New Hope Church in MN? Otherwise yeah maybe it is a thing that was encouraged by the EFCA
Same here but it was an SBC church. We moved to an "unwoke" SBC church. That being said we are also dealing with the SBC elites and Christian feminism. Not leaving yet because of the grassroots Conservative Baptist Network/CBN within the Convention. As CBN grows stronger in numbers hopefully, prayerfully the Lord will turn the ship back to the "ancient paths." We are seeking to do as Jude instructs, "contend earnestly for the faith."
This was so powerful! So thankful to have this reasoned and thoughtful presentation of the issues affecting the evangelical free churches and so many other churches. I thank God for this ministry!!!
This is really disappointing. The EFCA is an organization I’ve considered looking into more but wasn’t sure where they stood on these issues. Thank you for bringing this to light, Jon. Thank you, Pastor Craig Chambers, for exposing these unfruitful works of darkness so that we all know what agenda is being pushed by the executive level of leadership.
I was seriously thinking of trying an efca church here! I just want a biblical Christ following church without focusing on one biblical text to form their denomination!
@@KM-zn3lx i currently apart of an EFCA, its not woke at all and its in a very conservative area. It breaks my heart that theres enemies at upper leadership that want to distort Gods word..
I would recommend still trying it out. Ive been to many, many churches in my life and efc has been the best.
@@coolbeans6148 The local EFCA church is a good place to start. Many are not so attached to the National Leadership and are not going the wrong direction. Still, the deceitful manner in which the (now denomination) has got to be where it is at still makes what is said and what is practiced two different things.
@@coolbeans6148Hey there! I wonder if theres a difference between Efca and just efc? I was going to tey a church without the America added to it. Thanks!
We attended a EFC for a while until they proudly announced that they chose "the radical neutral" on "divisive topics". When we asked the pastor if they believed that abortion was murder, they said they have no opinion.
That's not "radical". That's cowardice and a severe lack of wisdom.
I am hearing quite a bit more from believers on things like this, and I am sorrowful over your experience, and am encouraged by your discernment.
Amen Amen Amen
1:15:00 My response to a charge of "Christian nationalism" would be the same as my response to a charge of legalism (or, for that matter, a charge of racism):
1. Define it;
2. Show from scripture why it, as you've defined it, is wrong; and
3. Show how and where I'm doing it.
Only then do we have something to discuss.
Exactly.
We just had to leave our church family of years aling with many other over all this.... we are very thankful and encouraged by the Lords leading us to church that Jeff Kliewer pastors. His book is excellant and truth needs to be preached by more brave Christ warriors. God will use all this for his good.
Solid. Thankful for this as well.
I’m in one now and I have had a lot of concerns about this for the last couple years.
What Church isn't going Woke? That's a better question.
Indeed, it is getting VERY difficult to find one. An independent one, not affiliated with any national denomination might be a good choice.
@Michael Ward Colleges > Seminaries > Churches > Mission Organizations
@Michael Ward Perhaps it is what that is taught in the Christian colleges, receives a deeper teaching in the seminaries, from which our pastors come to our churches, etc.
When we compromise ourselves to reach the world for Jesus, we find that we aren't reaching the world at all, but that the world is reaching us.
"No matter how sincere a man may be, and however carefully he guards against further theological concessions they are inevitable once inerrancy is given up. Francis Schaeffer has told conferees at L'Abri that "the generation of those who first gave up biblical inerrancy may have a warm evangelical background and real personal relationships with Jesus Christ so that they can 'live theologically' on the basis of their limited-inerrancy viewpoint. But what happens when the next generation tries to build on that foundation?" I am saying that whether it takes five or fifty years any denomination (or church) or parachurch group that forsakes inerrancy will end up shipwrecked. It is impossible to prevent the surrender of other important doctrinal teachings of the Word of God when inerrancy is gone." (Harold Lindsell - The Battle For The Bible, 1976)
I had my family in an Evangelical Free church as a baby believer. Lots of very liberal practices such as a woman giving benedictions, lots of talk about “human flourishing”, lots of Hillsong music, and the gospel to them was “doing life” together in Gospel Communities where we ate and prayed together weekly and told our stories. There was lots of out of context scriptures, and the belief that the gifts and mission of the 12 Apostles and Prophets of old is alive today in certain leaders. Beth Moore and Jen Wilkin women’s Bible studies, etc. I loved the people but just grew in grace and knowledge and left. This was in Albuquerque which is obviously a very liberal town so maybe it was on the worse end of things, but the parishioners in our gospel community supported liberal politics, especially regarding illegal immigration, and some were even pro-choice
Sorrowful for your experience there, "Mama." I am so encouraged by your discernment, though, and pray you continue to grow more in grace and knowledge as you follow the Lord who gave us everything needed for life and godliness in the God-breathed Scriptures.
@@craigchambers4183 thank you my brother! See you soon in the clouds!
@mama...much the same reason I left Catholicism. Searching.....😢
My wife and I were members at an EFCA church for about 6 years, and we left it about 6 years ago. I had come to true salvation before joining this church, but over time as my biblical convictions settled in, such as accepting the doctrines of grace, 6-day creationism, etc., I was finding it harder and harder to stay. I felt I wanted to be part of a church with which I could identify more deeply with their doctrinal statement, which of necessity would be more comprehensive. In any case, I was just following my convictions in the Lord.
Transformational churches? That is straight out of the Emerging Church's idea of traditional--->transitional--->transformational churches. Even though this movement has faded away a good bit, it is still around. And the leaven disseminated by these apostates is still leavening and destroying churches, denominations, etc. When the leadership of denominations, associations, and so on are notified of these influences coming in, 99% of the time they blown off, sometimes because they have already bought into it. It has happened time and time and time again. Some people are slow learners, or otherwise have little to no discernment. This is a sad indictment of many church leaders. It should not be.
Did you end up in a non-denom type or a confessional church?
@@Psalm144.1 Non-denom
Disgusting that they are calling for a fake ‘repentance’. I’m far more certain they are really looking for reparations. This enterprise has to be profitable and produce tangible results somehow.
God convicts with specific issues. The Devils accusations are always vague, with no resolution possible. Those who do the latter are wolves who have come in and are doing violence with their accusations which run contrary to the Gospel. Read Paul's admonitions and counsel to the elders at Ephesus. They are the ones who should be reprimanded and if necessary disciplined. They are in error.
Jon, I think you should make this guy part of your team. He has a good grasp on what's going on and how to put it into words thats easy to understand.
I am saddened, but not surprised. The EV Free churches and the EV Covenant churches are very similar and have a similar history, but it's been my impression that the EV Covenant churches began their downgrade a number of years earlier than even the EV Free churches. So it figures that the EV Free churches are being pulled in the direction of that siren song.
EFCA churches in my area (northern IL) are really independent and their character is defined by their individual pastors and elder boards. Some are better than others based on the humans running things. Their statements of faiths seem fine. Each one I know of does their own sermon each week and their ministries are totally different. No central direction that I can see.
The same is true of the EFCA church I pastor. We were not 'hearing' the National or the District's influence, even though it was there. That is mainly because things had become tenuous between the DS and me.
YES. the Public discussions, through the EFCA, is definitely shut down!!
I think that turning the other cheek does not mean running away, but graciously standing your ground like Jesus did in front of Pilate.
Will any denomination survive the cultural shift in the US? I feel like denominations with a national presence are the most vulnerable because there's a lot more pressure there to comply with cultural influences than in particular regions. Additionally, much of the leadership are elite adjacent, meaning they seem to seek recognition from the mainstream cultural elites. I think the political future of America is probably going to be some sort of Balkanization, and, likewise, something like that may have to be adopted by various denominations too if they want to survive.
Unless there is a great repentance, I foresee a “state” church and The Church. How much the Church will need to go underground remains to be seen…
Has any denomination survived for centuries, or decades even, and not become compromised? A denomination will end up splitting into a liberal wing and a biblical, conservative wing. And then it just a matter of time before the biblical one has to split because of liberalism; lather, rinse, repeat. Satan could own and operate 99.9% of the visible church, and would still come after the 0.1% because he hates God and God's people. I think there are some things Christians need to learn.
@@mikeyonce2323 I agree. A look through church history shows the constant drift and the Lord constantly bringing people (back) to Himself.
@@megofiachra3247 I definitely see that with the Southern Baptist Convention and Rick Warren will be leading them.
Even non denominational churches push certain things such as no rapture, the book of Revelation is allegorical, gifts have ceased, etc.! I don't care if pastors have different views on these as long as they point out there are other Biblical scholars who disagree! Don't just make fun of Charasmatics when there's different styles of Charasmatics. Don't call lgbtq, "those people," pray for them. Also fix your own gluttony issues.
One signal may be the minimizing of biblical prophecy.
The EFCA's 'big tent' was originally dispensational premillennial in its view. Now it is whatever millennial view one holds to, which should not separate brothers as long as we can hold discussions over the Scripture without anger. That being said, what you indicated by minimizing biblical prophecy is the nonchalance toward the return of our Lord in that no views are even allowed an audience for fear of offending someone. I am premillennial, but appreciate the other views and especially the anticipation of the return of our Lord Jesus and how that informs our living for Him right now. We must be engaged in Scripture on this major teaching of the Word as essential to our life's practice.
I am a pastor in the northern plains district and I can say with confidence that our district is not woke. In fact when our new DS came in several years ago I talked to him personally about this. This is not something that is in every district in the EFCA.
I hope that is now the case, brother. I just received an email from another Pastor in Nebraska (your District) whose church, and he, left the EFCA over these issues two years ago.
Jay, as a long term member of Desert Hills Bible Church (formerly Desert Hills Evangelical Free Church) mentioned at the 56:00 minute mark, I can tell you the direction of the EFCA leadership is the definition of woke. The elders of our church spoke to multiple leaders of the national EFCA organization at length and they acknowledged the direction of accepting women pastors, platforming women pastors at their conference, LGBTQ acceptance, supporting BLM, trying to encourage churches to be racially diverse, and trying to include people who wrote antichristian literature as explained during my pastor's open letter to the EFCA. The direction the EFCA has chosen is worldly, and when confronted with Scripture, the leadership rejected it. You may not be accepting the position the EFCA has taken, but they are literally the definition of woke.
@@samlind8676 Did not know the depth of this contact, Sam. Thank you for giving more clarity.
What about the Dallas Statement that pastors from the EFCA have signed? Is this credible? Are church members even aware of it? Do pastors openly speak on what is going on in this organization?
@@cat-bg3rv what Dallas statement?
I had to leave my church after it went woke in 2017
Sorry to hear that, Meade.
Excellent, excellent discussion!
I really appreciate his last comments. We are older and we sense the time for proclaiming the Gospel is short and we should focus on that and not become embroiled in an unnecessary conflict.
It’s not a surprise to me…I’ve seen much to be concerned about for at least the last 12 years or so. We left when our efc started down the WillowCreek and PurposeDriven way. The other ones in our area also started embracing yoga, contemplative prayer (Spiritual Formation)m and then around the same time 2010 I noticed the Denomination was also promoting social justice and illegal immigration in some of its programs. I will not attend the local ones that are healthy because they won’t come out from under the parent Denomination. Same with SBC. Also, the connection to Ed Stetzer and their agreeing with him in changing the National Denomination’s Statement of Faith on eschatology.
So many of you realize things long before I did. The Lord's blessing on you all.
@@craigchambers4183 thank you for speaking out…no one took my concerns seriously. I was just a small minnow in a big ocean of fish. It’s truly heartbreaking what has happened to the denomination as well as others. Prayers for you!
@@JodKrMdr I'm a baby small minnow, but I'm in Christ so I'm ok with that.
I grew up Evangelical Free and thought they were about the most biblical, balanced, conservative group ever. Guess not.
The church you were in could very well have been as you describe. Many still are. I don't know if they are the 'most' or not, but the problem certainly lays at the door of many, and in particular with the National Office.
Listening to this reminds of a same pattern I has watched over the years. A path denominations take of losing truth of God's word. The upper leadership keep introduction certain agendas till they get what they want.The churches end up losing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and make another gospel which is no gospel at all. It is called deception. A little leaven leavens the whole.
Our local EFCA "pastor" told the story of Pontius Pilate on Good Friday, then set up basins of water at each corner of the sanctuary and told members to go wash their hand like Pilate...amazing...have NOT been back!!
I’m very fortunate that my church, while it is EVFree, is one of the very few that has refused to turn to any kind of teaching that is outside of scripture (including Wokeness, Social Justice, etc.)
That is very good to hear, thank you.
@@craigchambers4183 Absolutely. They have a UA-cam channel and they have connections with Grace Community Church in SoCal. NorthCreek Church in Walnut Creek.
@@ChewMadeNew It's always helpful to share information, to make thing open and understandable. I don't know about GCC in Southern Cal - are you saying they are connected to John MacArthur? On the face of it, I highly doubt that. Thanks!
@@craigchambers4183 I’m saying that they have people who used to go there when they lived in SoCal. They also have masters university and seminary grads on staff.
Where does your church stand on Creation?
Good question about where sound, Bblcal Christians from these off the rails denominations are going? May God raise up sound churches. He has in the past…think of the Reformation. Also the Great Ejection in the UK and what came out of that. Let us pray!!!
It seems to often be the case that when a denomination goes south, it's inevitably the more conservative congregations that are forced to leave. A huge problem with this is that with a lot of denominational structures, the conservative congregations end up ceding their property and financial interests to the liberal wolves in sheep's clothing, leaving many of them having to start from scratch. If I'm not mistaken, that's what happened in the '70s when the Presbyterians split and became the PCUSA (liberal wing) and the PCA (conservative wing) - the PCUSA got the lion's share of the property and financial interests that congregational members had donated to over the years. If/when the PCA splits because of the woman question and/or homosexual issues, I expect a similar thing to happen. And most likely the same basic thing will happen within the SBC as they continue to hemorrhage conservative congregations (although I confess I don't really know much about SBC polity, so perhaps there are safeguards within that denominational structure to prevent such pillaging).
Thats what happened when the Bible believers left the Southern Baptist Convention.
@@au7-721 I thought each SBC affiliated church owns their own property. Like aren’t baptists a congressional polity?
Fathers, discipline your children. Church, honor God's design.
Perhaps a description at the beginning of the History: it grew out if the Holiness, Wesleyan tradition Swedish Covenant Church, North Park University they are redefining inerrancy. They have passed resolutions on racial integration years ago. They have some significant documents tgat would not line up with the Chicago Declaration on inerrancy in 1979. R.C. Sproul amd John Macarther D
A. Carsen.
We left the evangelical covenant about 3years ago. I understood much less of what was going on, and we left because we moved, but north park university was something to be avoided and the last three years have solidified our decision. Naively, we chose an SBC church! 😂. I thought at the time, “such foolishness won’t be tolerated in the SBC.” Alas. Our congregation is not woke, but how much the leadership understands of the current situation and what they decide to do, I don’t know.
You are referring to the Evangelical Covenant Church, brother. I'm referring to the Evangelical Free Church. I think many EFCA churches, or pastors would still line up with Chicago, Danvers/Nashville and other biblical confessions in these matters. Probably you can have a 'tell' come up with EFCA guys if asked about their thoughts on John MacArthur: strong reactions against him (as in pro-Beth Moore, etc) verses he's sound even if we don't agree on everything/love his teaching! response.
As has been noted, your reference to North Park is the Evangelical Covenant Church - and what a hot mess North Park and the ECC are. I am in process of leaving an ECC church, several years too late I admit, but you wouldn’t have to dig up a blog article here or there to recognize what has been happening there. It’s openly, proudly woke. My previous pastor of many years was biblically rooted, and I paid little attention to the denomination. But when he left, I came to see how bad things were. Ironically, I just visited an EFCA church this past Sunday and found it very refreshing. Hopefully it is not too late to turn the tide in this denomination like it is in the ECC.
@@JamesAylard Obviously I concluded that the EFCA's leadership has covered, ignored and repudiated (in claim only) the issues raised. So has many EFCA pastors. But I also recognized that not all have gone this route. I hope the one you visited is not defiled by such things. Still, I also concluded (for myself alone) that because of these actions (not always by their words) they are not only biblically unsound in regards to sufficiency of Scripture alone, but that it has gone so far as to be resistant to repentance so as to return to sound doctrinal practice, and therefore shall not be turned back. I am glad for your hope, but I think that same hope that was in the SBC illustrates the end game will turn out to be unrepresentative of the truth of God's Word. I am completely open to be proved wrong and for your hope to be proved right. May our God judge these things and purify His church within the EFCA.
@@craigchambers4183 I have no doubt that you weighed and prayed over these matters carefully and thoroughly. As Jon Harrison expressed in your interview with him, it isn’t clear to me, either, how the administration of the EFCA is structured and what efforts you or others may have already attempted. That leaves the question open in my mind whether a dedicated group of pastors and lay people could fight and reverse the rot before too much of the organizational integrity has been compromised. Your conclusion seems to be that too much has already been compromised making repair impossible, just as seems to be the case already in the SBC and the ECC.
The number and degree of Evangelical denominations that seem to have been severely undermined, if not ruined, by wokeness, seemingly all within a few short years, keeps me scratching my head as to how? Was the rot always there, but beneath the surface? Or were the events of the last few years really enough to lead so many faithful men and women into such depths of compromise?
Update: My ordination was officially revoked this week by the EFCA. This podcast was considered by them to not be Christ-honoring, but they decided not to charge and defrock me. I had already answered this, and am willing to send my view to any who might have interest, along with documentation. To make this short, their accusation is a reflection on them and their processes which do not match the Word. Regardless, it is both sad and a relief to be no longer associated in ministry with the EFCA national and district leadership. I remain as pastor of the EFCA church that I have been with the past 18 years, and fond of the others that came before during my 34 year association.
God Bless you. We need pastors that stand for Truth! You are in my prayers!
@@hisservants8003 Thank you.
I’m having a hard time finding a church for my family that has not gone left
@@stacydelrio1433 I am sorry to hear that @stacydelrio. I do think the Lord has a place for you that could be near enough. No church will meet all you might expect, but there remains those who are not so compromised with the world and its system. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help, and just prayed for you.
@@stacydelrio1433 Have you found one yet?
Yes E-Free is woke.
Just a few years ago the buzz was the EFCA was going Calvinist. Interesting how when the SBC went Calvinist it also began going in the woke direction.
The EFCA did begin with Arminian perspectives, and round about the time I entered many were, like myself, understanding the doctrines of grace. So, it is not 'calvinism' that has taken people in this direction, though a perversion of it has been co-opted by some 'progressive' "Christians." The one is not connected to the other.
@@craigchambers4183 so it is just a coincidence that both after the EFCA and the SBC went Calvinistic, they also started going woke?
I only know the Southern Baptist context of this happening, but noticed shared patterns by the Calvinism and woke. Both woke and Calvinism are academically driven; both have a distain towards the common man and his common sense understandings of free will, responsibility, morality, and language; both re-interpret language subtly push their agenda; both use deception to spread; both seek to change the young who go to educational institutions (university or seminary); both hide what they are doing because most of the people who pay for their institutions do not hold these beliefs; both often first spread through the youth departments; and both in churches seek spread their agenda with a a top down/authoritarian/deceptive/ approach. Interestingly, much of this behavior was also done by the liberals who took over Methodism years ago according to Thomas Oden.
Back when I left Calvinism almost 15 years ago, I would call many of the reformed thinkers “right wing liberals.“ This is because they thought like liberals but had conservative content. Now I see how easy it is for them to make the shift in content, too.
@@paulchamberlain4810 I was only noting that there is not a connection. I see you have a different agenda to argue against it, and I did not intend to enter into some argument over it. All I will say is that every SBC pastor I know who has opposed being 'woke' is Reformed. Of those leaving or having left the EFCA, I do not know all their understandings on this, but of the ones I do know, they are also Reformed. I am Reformed, I am not 'woke.' It is not a narrative than can be a blanket statement as all these men and congregations believe the Word and its sufficiency. I am sorry for your experience.
@@craigchambers4183 I agree not all reformed are woke and there are reformed pastors who strongly speak out against it. I have watched UA-cam videos by reformed people opposing it. I was noting that Calvinism was a precursor to the woke movement in these two Evangelical organizations, at least in the southern Baptist context Calvinists where at the sharp end, and that both of these movements were spread by similar patterns.
Also, I have yet to hear any of these reformed pastors who are condemning how the woke movement is spread condemn how Calvinism was/is spread through top down and deceptive tactics like stealth Calvinism (Calvinist pastor candidates lying to steal non-Calvinist churches). When that happened to my church, I left the SBC. This gives the impression that they don’t care about these dirty tactics, they only care when they are used against them.
There are and were non-Calvinist pastors standing up against these type of things. Unfortunately, the Calvinists seem late to the game. For example, Peter Lumpkins, a strong non-Calvinist, questioned Al Molher about these types of things back at the 2011 convention (You can find it on UA-cam, I don’t know if they let links be shared here). The only response I saw from the Calvinist side at the time was mocking Peter and claiming he got punked by Molher.
You can also compare how concerns about Calvinist Russell Moore being appointed president of the ERLC were dismissed when he replaced the conservative non-Calvinist Richard Land. And we all saw how that turned out.
So yes, there are reformed people strongly standing up against the woke. Unfortunately, they largely only started doing so after Calvinists gained dominance in the SBC and any non-Calvinist movement was destroyed. I’ve wondered if their Calvinism blind them to what their fellow Calvinists were doing? Or they were disappointed they were not included in the division of the spoils? Or they thought they could control the left wing element of their movement to their advantage? Or they thought the liberalism was worth the spread of Calvinism? I don’t know… if Calvinist had joined with us non-Calvinists over 10 years ago to stop this problem, it probably wouldn’t be a problem. But then Calvinism wouldn’t have spread as well either, so maybe they took that into account in their decision not to make a stand back then? Again, I don’t know…
@@paulchamberlain4810 I'm a johnnie-come-lately in terms of personalities and names, but I see how you follow the path. Bad calvinist pastors exist, and so do bad non-calvinists. Still sorry for your bad experiences, and glad for the good ones.
Interesting to hear about the Mosaic churches. I only know of one, and its pastors are super sketchy. Didn’t know it was a group of churches
Not sure if it is a united group of churches. Many churches go by the name Mosaic, I only know of the one 'mega' church that hosts things like you can see in the references. The Founding Pastor/church planter who started that church (now goes by the title Directional Leader) is Mark DeYmaz at Mosaic Church, central Arkansas. You can read about that conference in the references, but the website is easily available: Mark DeYmaz Mosiac Church. He is also know as the President (on Zoom) and Executive Assistant, Author, and Movement Leader.
@@craigchambers4183 interesting info, thank you. I’m definitely putting that in the back of my mind
The one i know of is in Waco, tx, and their “mission statement” or description is very similar to the Arkansas one.
@@outboardprsnlstndup Thanks.
On the gender issue, Paul did not allow a woman to rule over men. That idea comes out of the image of God where His masculine leads His feminine. Women are to teach women and children and be respectful and show deference to the masculine. That role modeling is essential to the correct gender modeling for marriages, families and the gender formation in the young and to the world. Correct gender functioning and modeling is part of discipleship based on the immutable image of God.
Where are we told to show deference to the “masculine?” Can you chapter and verse me on this?
Husbands, elders in the church, where else? I owe no deference to you, my brother, unless you lead my church.
Teaching women and children is hardly deferential. It is a high calling and a privilege.
@@karigross4596 Show your chapter and verse where in Scripture there was a female Pastor. I'm not being mean just want to see your theological view of leadership in The Church.
@@fuzfire you misunderstand me. I am fully complementarian. Your wording implied I, as a woman, are required to “show deference” to the “masculine.” I am in submission to my husband and elders, but to no one else based on their sex.
“His masculine leads his feminine” is anthropocentric and wrong. God does not have feminine qualities. God as the man Christ has only masculine qualities. Arguably the divine has neither, which is NOT saying he’s androgynous or gender less. Is saying “God is not a man that he should lie, or a son of man that he should change his mind.” Both male and female are made in the image of God, but pay very close attention: male and female are CREATED. That means they’re not part of the eternal nature of God. God created man first and identifies with masculine pronouns because masculinity is a more direct reflection of God’s attributes. But it is a colossal mistake to think that masculinity as exhibited by men **is a divine attribute,** and it’s even worse of a mistake to think that femininity is. Gender is not rooted in the Trinity, it’s rooted in the relationship of Christ to the church.
Though I grant that you said his image which isn’t technically wrong but you implied it’s reflective of his attributes, which is why I pushed back. It sounded EFS
The Apostle Paul settled the slavery issue once and for all in writing the letter to Philemon. Just tesch that and move on. Church tradition says that the former slave Onesomois went on to become a Bishop maybe at Ephesus.
The EFCA is following the Emergent Missional movement...social justice, contemplative spirituality under spiritual Formation, LGTBQ welcoming. Been researching this since 2019 and we left our church after being there 23 years. The pastor was bringing in "missional micro church" junk.
I received a book from our District's missions fellow back in 2007: "Breaking the Missional Code," by Ed Stetzer. Long on charts, graphs, bubbles, data, etc. and short on biblical texts. Seems like every book I received and/or was directed to were also pragmatic, like "Bridging the Diversity Gap" by Alvin Sanders (2013) and "Becoming a Church the Cares Well for the Abused" Handbook, Brad Hambrick General Editor, (2019). The latter was reviewed by Jonathan Harris about a year in the episode "The Caring Well Initiative."
@@craigchambers4183 Ed Stetzer is a total missional church movement guy, very ecumenical, social justice etc. Other names to watch for are Alan Hirsch, Michael Frost, Caesar Kalinowski, Rob Wegner...
@@CLJorgie Thank you, Chris.
Is there a way I could get copies or links to the documents presented in this video?
Thank you.
Is there a difference between EFCA and EFC? I went to an EFCA and was alarmed at notes of Predestination from a lay person. I was thinking of going to an EFC today and wondered if there was a difference. Anyone who can answer almost 2 yes later?! Haha!
When did Jesus, Paul, or anyone else tell a group of people to collectively repent of the sins of their society, to repent of someone else's sin? Am I in sin, and therefore to repent of the fact that I have nearly no melanin in my skin? And, how do I turn from that sin and follow Jesus? Or, if that is in fact sin, is that actually the unforgivable sin that Jesus spoke about, and not blasphemy against the Spirit?
Have u thought about releasing highlight clips of 5 minutes? That’s what most show formats like this do. Love ur content but sometimes there’s just a ton of filler u do and short clips would draw in more ppl
I 2nd this....I cannot listen to the entire segment presented here....Great content....much 2 long...GIVE US HIGHLIGHTS...!
Yknow, I might consider doing that myself if Jon doesn’t mind. Right now I’ve dabbled with editing and my computer is too burdensome to do much with, but since I watch his videos consistently I could note highlights for myself to cut later, to promote for sharing and getting the message out more. Not for self promotion. That said, the subject matter fits perfectly with the username I picked for myself :D
The IFCA is active in CO. Probably a good alternative to the EFCA of course. I haven't watched the video yet. I just see Chambers is from Pueblo West, Colorado.
I had considered IFCA prior than associating with the EFCA back in the 80's. There are a couple of reasons that they would not accept me, one is the pre-trib position they have that I do not; I am premil, but not pretrib in my understanding, and unless I change those 2.5 years of difference I do not qualify. I really do like them, and John MacArthur holds his ordination with them.
@Craig Chambers Thanks for the note brother. I know of regular baptists S/SW of Pueblo. Maybe you're tracking those as well. Keep pressing onward. I just bought J. Benziger's book "Stand" on this topic. Sounds like that's what you're doing.
I was at an efca church for 17 years. I can safely say that the efca has a woke trojan horse element already in place. it may have already gone entirely woke from the top
Let's remember what women teach other women. Titus 2 is specific.
They are being told to teach the Word concerning what a godly wife and mother are called to be in their home, in their community etc.
As a woman I am to look to my husband, elders and pastor for the truth of the Word.
"Secondary Issues": I find no place in the bible where it witnesses that any teaching is "secondary" in concern. Not to be extreme, I understand that there are some things the bible says which honesty would demand that no one can give an iron clad interpretation, and so on the narrow issue I may have to say that I am willing to fellowship in a range of possible interpretations. But that doesn't make the difficult scripture of second importance, just my interpretation of it. I believe the term "secondary issue" is just a cover for disobedient elders to justify disobedient sheep and mutually avoid the pain of correction. A high minded sounding label for passive avoidance will not fool the Chief Shepherd.
When the inspiration, the sufficiency, and the authority of Scripture is denied it's replaced with the word of men.
"Once the reliability of God's revelation in the historical Christ of Scripture is put in question, as it was in the 18th and 19th Century thought, secular theology is the only consistent possibility: in rejecting God's revelation, man puts himself in God's place: now all that is required is to work out the implications of man's centrality. Naturally, God will take a back seat or be redefined in terms of man's interest: naturally, human social action will become all-important: naturally, (as in the Death of God advocate William Hamilton), Jesus will be transmuted into a humanistic "place to be" and "revelation" will now be found in sexual satisfaction and the amelioration of the ills of society." (John Warwick Montgomery - The Suicide of Christian Theology, 1970)
Whoa.
I feel sad. I think I need to leave the pentacostal church. I didn't join cuz it didn't feel right. Women pastors, seeking gifts of the spirit, are the biggest that bother me. I don't like the worship music has some Hillsong and Bethel.
G3 might be a good option
As an association I think G3 is tops. No mechanism as a denomination, so ordination not overseen. Its more of an added thing to who you are already associated with denominationally/movement wise.
The one thing I don't like is the church is all they talk is Jesus is coming this we know but they fail to tell you that Satan will come first then Jesus will come
I tried to send an email to Pastor Craig through the address above and it was not able to be delivered. Is the address above accurate?
Thank your for your email, Pastor Timothy. Jonathan corrected it.
Please credit that intro music in the description.
Yes!
But what if I’m not reformed?
To improve your very good teaching, I recommend eschewing the practice of calling your sisters in Christ “gals.” 😂😂😂
My wife and I grew up in Southern California, and it shows. I also call my brothers in Christ "guys." 🙂
Sir, being on the East side of the USA, you're up even later than I am! 😂 Go to bed, and thanks for the new episode!
I attend an Efree church and it is opposite of everything you said. It is true to the word of God. And not giving into societies point of view. And I believe most Efree churches are this way. I do not know when we as evangelicals are going to stop looking at ways to attack eachother and focus more on a hurt lost and dying world.
The leftist lying love boat religion loves the world very very much and whole-heartedly endlessly uses Scripture to that end.
If God's plan for HIS church is to not allow a woman to be in a pastoral position over men, and His revealed plan for the church is laid out in scripture, a man, or a woman, who believes it's perfectly fine to thwart God's plan for HIS church should absolutely not be in any pastoral position.
My EFC church isn’t woke or social justice. I know the pastor well. He would fight against such nonsense.
How can I find a church that is just teaching the bible
It appears to be much larger than the Pres himself.
Just to be clear; this is a part of the EV Free denomination, and not all churches within the denomination.
You make "woke" sound like a bad thing. 🤷🏻♂️ I'm Episcopalian, and we're glad to be woke. 👍🏻
Because Woke is your religion and you are happy to USE Christianity to accomplish your lying secular faith & love movement. Highly "problematic," as Woke say.
Why are pastors like you leaving though? Stay and fight!
yes
How sad to have a guest speak authoritatively on a program about the EFCA when he is clearly ignorant of the EFCA. Vet your guests or invite an expert who can speak accurately about the subject.
terrible sound--can't hear and understand him
I love seeing all you racists and bigots coming together and crying about people caring for their neighbor.
Every comment on this thread is about how folks were happy to leave their church because they were preaching love and acceptance and they consider that woke.
Thank you so much for the hours of contact that I am going to be able to milk from this one video on my channel
Believers do need to make sure every dime they have given to these lying blackmailing kidnaped churches is returned-with interest.
Pastor Craig Chambers points out something that
is lost on many people who label themselves fol-
lowers of the SON YESHUA HAMASHIACH.Many
are not going woke,they are going works 🙄 We
are being tested.Are we building our foundation
on the rock of Grace from ADONAI alone,Faith in
the sacrifice of the Cross alone,in the blood of 🧬
The SON YESHUA HAMASHIACH alone.Or is our
foundation built on the sand of what we believe,
and do ♨️🕊 🔥
Checkout Creo Collective this group I believe is why the EFCA changed the statement of faith a few years ago from being premillienial to "his glorious return"...
Question at 1hr27mins. Check out Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals
And
Reformed Baptist Network
Thank you.