I have a pretty serious issue with putting out a pseudo-theological declaration that includes several statements about history. I don't disagree with the facts they are speaking about, but there is no place for "you need to believe this about history" in a "theological" declaration.
From the declaration: “WE DENY that any particular view of the Allied leaders, their strategies, or tactics during World War II should be a test of Christian orthodoxy.” Pretty sure they’re not making history a point of Christian doctrine other than what the Bible says.
Concur. If they are going this direction they need to demonstrate how exactly believing certain recent historical facts is a sin. Obviously there is one major historical fact that is required in Christianity, the birth, death and resurrection of Christ. But saying there are men deserving of church discipline, somehow in sin, or somehow unorthodox just because they believe something different about a 20th century, or 18th century historical narrative, is really questionable.
Sure there is. For example, you need to believe that Jesus was a real person who existed at a specific time in history in a specific place geographically. We need theological statements that insert necessary historical views because of how easy it is for Christians to start separating their faith from the rest of their worldview. It’s fine not to agree with this particular statement, but it is an error to say that historical beliefs can’t be incorporated into theological statements.
@@Sensible_centrist I agree with what @stryker said. There are SOME historical events that we need to believe because they are communicated in God's word. Making ANY other historical event some sort of test of orthodoxy is wrong. Now, technically they did not say it was a test of orthodoxy in this document. However, it is very strange to include it at all and it muddies the waters because many people will take it as some sort of test of orthodoxy even if it isn't stated as such. It's almost implied that it's wrong not to believe it.
@@Sensible_centrist this is a non sequitur. The framework of belief requirements one must affirm in participation of a globalized organized religion isn't the same as data points dealing with technically the most weaponized and Inflammatory event in modern human history intertwined with fantasy and political agendas. Asking how 6 million people were unalived on the second floor of a 2 room building with wooden and unsealed doors isn't antisemitism. Or questioning the motives of a conglomerate of nations to push a post war consensus through disinformation is also not the same as believing Jesus is God.
This is all very sad. To see the characterization of those who doubt their views on Israel and the Jews as being "incels" and "internet randos", in fact, from what I read, I see a lot of grown men who were tutored by Wilson and White to think Biblically and reject regime narratives. These men, most of which genuinely love White and Wilson, now find themselves attacked in a rather passive aggressive fashion which typifies big eva. This whole event once more directly demonstrates the foolishness of nameless accusation in matters of public disagreement. It sows needless division. Be men. Name names.
Definitely. James White is the puppet master in this whole affair and he is doing it because there was a Reformed Baptist star on the rise that liked Stephen Wolfe and was an avowed Christian Nationalist and White couldn’t take that laying down.
The statement is using a shotgun when it should have used a sniper rifle. Christians all over disagree about the historical narrative of Genesis, and there is little heartache, but the second someone has questions about some reported numbers in WW2, it's fire everywhere. Seems off to me.... And if anything, it draws more attention.
@DarioHawkeye oh I'm sorry, I must have missed the Genesis statement from AIG, where they say if you differ in understanding to me, you throw all of history into question, and you are obviously just some young fool being duped. Oh wait.... That statement doesn't exist. Grow up and see what's in front of you. The WW2 narrative is a sacred cow, and these guys will not tolerate any questions. This statement creates division in a destructive manner. I happen to agree with tons of it, but not all. And because I am not 100% with them, they see me as 100% against them.
@@DarioHawkeyeAiG is primarily combatting atheists evolutionist. Sure there are some people who try to go the foolish theistic evolution route, but AiG is in no way constantly fighting that battle. That just happens to be included in the actual fight they are having.
Who got mad at questions being asked? Which questions did they get mad over? Which question did they all talk and blogg about? Pretending that "those people" just don't want anything to be questioned isn't truthful. In fact, I have yet to find a person who says with conviction that it was definitely exactly or at least 6.000.000. The issue isn't with asking questions. The issue is with what people are asserting. Just because the mainstream lies all the time, doesn't mean nobody died unjustly. How many people would have had to die unjustly for a situation to be bad? Are we saying it has to be 6.000.000 to be bad? Are we not Christians anymore who believe an individual human made in God's image has a right to due (biblical) process, with 2-3 witnesses being required? Why can't we condemn sinful actions in the past that certainly didn't apply biblical justice?
@@RebekkaMH13 Who is saying no one died unjustly? Questioning is exactly the issue, did you read the statement? If you question the evidence surrounding this whole thing, then you throw all of history into question according to these guys. We can condemn sinful actions in the past....but you cannot question if the reporting of actions being sinful or unjust is accurate. If it wasn't 6mil, then what was the number, and what is the evidence. Be careful how far down that road you go. You might find yourself being one of those young fools called out in the statement.
I really appreciated Joseph Spurgeon's X post on the Declaration. I also agree with a post on it by The Other Paul though, that some further specificity on some terms would still be needed.
"The Other Paul" promotes the Nazi's heretical "positive christianity" movement which removed the old testament from scriptures, took out parts of the new, and morphed Jesus into some bizarre aryan volk-hero.
It would have been more straight forward to simply say “We are concerned that non-Christian, political, ideology from the Right is becoming a seducing and corrupting influence in Reformed Christianity. We specifically denounce racism, hatred of Jewish people, Holocaust denialism, Nazism, and white nationalism. We call upon Christians to exercise discernment when exploring or espousing political ideologies that may overtly or subtly either mislead Christians into error, or at least damage their witness.” I would likely sign that in a heartbeat.
Have you ever actually even looked at the evidence? You “disavow” but do you even know what you’re “disavowing”? THAT is the true cowardice here. And this is nothing more than bullying. And they have they audacity to call themselves men of God.
Most of your denounce sentence is either irrelevant, duplicative, or doesn't require denouncing. This may be a summarized version of what they intended, but it should just be...We denounce hatred of any people based on their race or ethnicity. Few if any Christians would not sign that.
@@genuineimitation8799The evidence of what? Be specific as to what you are advocating for. Also, please note that you quoted me as stating “disavow,” when the word I used was “denounce.” Please correct yourself.
@@EverEverOnI’m not sure that those things don’t need to be specifically called out. There does appear to be some attempt by some vocal people to intermix Reformed Christianity with some or all of those things. Even if those people are only a small segment of the Reformed Christian community, they make themselves very visible in on-line discourse. They have serious potential to both mislead Christians and damage the witness of Christians. Its already a troupe of the unbelieving world to call Christians “Nazis.” We ought not espouse rhetoric that appears to confirm that stereotype.
@ I’m not going to spoon feed you. Just watch Joel’s original video about it. Bet you haven’t. As for the rest, get over yourself. I’m not correcting anything, especially with that kind of ridiculous attitude.
In addition to Equipping the Persecuted, I would also recommend giving to HeartCry Missionary Society, Paul Washer's missionary group with an emphasis on raising up indigenous pastors.
Jon have you heard of David Irving and his trial over h*l*c*st denial? He was a well respected historian who had everyone turn on him when he did research into you know what. His discoveries are quite fascinating. Even so, this isn’t something to be excommunicated for. It’s utterly ridiculous what they’ve done to the church member and Joel. Joel has said the member is repentant and in good standing. That should end the matter.
Joel makes a fool of himself almost weekly. He has no clue about WW2. My Uncle saw one of the camps first hand when he was a soldier. There are mountains of evidence and testimony. Joel is a sophomore.
This airing of interpersonal disagreements between Christian UA-cam/social media personalities is getting really gay. It’s especially egregious coming from guys who claim to be trying to reassert masculinity into Christian culture. Handle your business behind closed doors, literally and/or figuratively.
Jon, this video was super helpful. Ive been so confused about this whole thing (even though I've followed it pretty much from the start), but your summary made it very clear. Thank you. God bless you and your sweet family.
The reference to Aristotle and blood and soil is probably from James White, who has been using that language, and who is alarmed by the growing influence of Thomists in the Baptist world. It is not just Wolfe's political views but a lot of Baptists in the seminaries.
Yes. This all stems from White trying to keep the Baptist faith pure…at least as he sees it. Webbon didn’t even have to be a Thomist to draw his ire. He just had to be friendly with one.
Thanks for taking the time to discuss the Declaration. I do hope you are able to get a conversation going with the known persons on either side. I have seen some say that the Declaration was intended to start or continue the conversation already begun, but it doesn’t read that way to me. It reads more like lines drawn in the sand and a choice between sides unclearly drawn.
The goal should have been to be able to craft a statement like this AT THE END of a conflict, after there has been resolution and reconciliation, that all parties can sign. In the middle of a conflict, when one side has still yet to provide a defense/answer for clearly slandering the other, can only cause division and reduce the chances of reconciliation
Declarations can be technically correct but still not worth signing. The timing or situation in which a declaration is issued can make it counter productive.
Not even a year ago, Lig Duncan passively takes a shot at Moscow. Moscow responds with true Christian gentleness by inviting the host of that podcast to come to Moscow and talk. And they thanked the guy for having a conversation. That’s how they handled being attacked. Now they’re doing the same thing to a guy who actually loves and respects them. Plus, they’re not even allowing Joel to pastor his church. This whole back and forth… could it be any more unattractive? It’s like girls or gay boys getting into an argument in the park. Sooooo gay This is the stuff that makes young men annoyed with the reformed world. We have to do better
John, I am glad you were able to speak with Joel about the Tobias issue. I find Joel to be a very humble guy. I am a big supporter of him. I have been keeping up with the issue between Joel and this Tobias guy. I think all of this mess starts with the conflict between James White and Stephen Wolfe. I know you are fully aware of these things. James White is bitter against Joel over his allegiance to Stephen Wolfe. The meme issue was an opportunity for James White to poke at Joel Webbon.
I don’t think this is the root. I think the root is that Joel, Andrew Iskar , and others have a historic view o the passages in Romans 11 about the infilling of the Jews. That would make modern Israel just another nation not God’s “special people”. Joel and Andrew did an episode after the Hamas attacks on 10/7/23 about Who are Israel. This was a very good episode and actually a paradigm shifter for me. The used many scriptures and it was well reasoned. The old guard it seems looks at Israel dispensationally, and don’t like another interpretation.
@ maybe check out some of Jeff Durbin’s messages on Israel, more specifically on Matthew 24. His views are much against a current Jewish nation than Joel Webbon’s views.
Pastor Tobias is building a case, not an apology. That’s why his statement is taking so long. It doesn’t take multiple weeks to say “I was wrong about XYZ, and I’m sorry.”
The statement starts out talking about how Paul opposed Peter to his face, publicly. And so these guys put out statement of their position rather than have a public face to face conversation with Joel Webbon? That is by far the worst part. They also refuse to name whom they are speaking about in their public broadcasts (got to maintain plausible deniability regarding false accusations).
Just posing a question out of curiosity but is it truly wise to sign the declaration if you don't agree with everything being stated in the declaration? Isn't the whole point of signing it an affirmation that you do in fact agree with all of the aforementioned statements in said declaration?
Jon, I have followed this for some time and watched both Joel and Tobias videos. Tobias is German, and English is his second language. It was apparent watching his video, and he struggled sometimes with our language. Also, I think the member that put out this meme was a member of his church in Germany before morning to the United States. The Holocaust was very evil as we know by reading history books of WW2. I believe that it really hits home to the German people and is a black mark on their country. Having watched interviews of Holocaust survivors from the 70s and 80s, the impact was life changing for me. I, to this day, am horrified by what happened to the Jews in WW2. Plus, look what happened on October 7th. So yes, I can see where Tobias and Dr. White are coming from. I watch you, Jeff Durbin, AD, Joel Webbon, and Doug Wilson, and I appreciate all of you. I hope this gets settled so we can move on and chalk it up as a lesson learned. There are some big dragons out there that we still need to slay. God Bless!
Language barriers do complicate things. That’s one of the reasons I didn’t give him a hard time about calling for a church council when he meant arbitration I think.
@@michaelbratsch5157 No one is arguing that the narrative as taught is not horrifying. What is in question is the validity of the narrative. Look around you at all the things that suck. Pornography, usury, abortion, feminism, Marxism, gender theory, transgenderism, mass migration. Go dig a bit and see who is creating all of this filth, and why. Good luck.
It’s insane that having a differing view on historical events has driven these men to such pearl clutching. Do they church discipline for moon landing denial? Or disagreeing about any claims about Stalin or Mao’s genocide? Of course not.
The Tobias thing seems like it might be a proxy war with Steven Wolf (at least in part). It seems like James has some serious issues with Steven and his reliance on philosophical categories to inform his theology rather than using scripture to inform it. (Not to mention Stevens ad hominem insults at JW).
Sad the amount of damage that's being done both to the Kingdom and to these men's ministries because of arrogance and pride. The hardest words in the English language to say really are, "I'm sorry, I apologize - please forgive me." Especially the older you get. Hopefully these wise men can all see their own errors and come to one another in humility and repentance.
The point about Aristotle might actually be directly about the member of Joel’s church. If I recollect the Zoom call recording correctly, Tobias rebuked him for using Aristotle as a worthy teacher or something.
It's more likely a jab against Stephen Wolfe and his natural law arguments and very public arguments with James White. But, no one really knows, which is why this sort of declaration is really dumb.
So I think the biggest problem regardless of what people think about the statement is that Doug etc never talk about or review the relevant news articles or historical facts people are talking about to try to be debunk or explain them the way they should be interpreted so as to dispel their bad thinking. It’s like they’re saying “we are wise and understand what’s going on but going into details is beneath us and it’s probably anti-Semitic to even talk about it. We are wise trust us 😉. And if you don’t we will slander you as a mouth breather racist Nazi.”
When that Big Eva guy went on the nuance podcast and criticized The Moscow crowd while refusing to name them Doug et al were rightly annoyed, it's sad to see them do seemingly the same here.
The authors of the Antioch Statement probably should have read William Zinnser’s book titled On Writing Well. If you want people to understand your points, write like that matters to you.
I tried reading the AD. Wanted to poke myself in the eye avout one paragraph in. I doubt anything so convoluded. The evangelical world is like a bad carnival act.
I think you're missing it. There was a racial component to the Judaisers. While the process of becoming a proselyte could be considered merely legal, there was a forsaking of former identities and becoming a Jew. The genetic component of racism is a 20th century phenomenon. The issue does come down to identities that actually transcend ethnicity. It's not merely "the Law" because the division with Peter did come down to distancing himself from Gentiles and identifying with "his people"
2:00:15 Yes! A statement on "what is a nation" is ABSOLUTELY needed and would do a much better job of answering the things that it seems the Antioch Declaration (largely) was intended to address. If I may suggest the name: "Some Babel from the Areopagus" in reference to the Tower of Babel, where the peoples were forcibly divided by a major divine act and Paul's statement in Acts 17:26 plus the fact that the locals called him a "babbler". Ok that name mostly a dad joke...or is it?!?
@@RebekkaMH13 who is trying to convince you? I'm happy if all the virtue signaling ideologues identify themselves by publicly supporting something so stupid that was only generated to officially declare "teams".
Nothing incorrect in the statement that I see whether or not there is a Joel Webbon controversy. If you say it’s a “gay statement,” then I conclude you’re possessed by a demon.
Doug Wilson's role in all of this is the most disappointing thing for me. His actions appear to show that he has taken the side of Joel's accusers, who have accused him of being a key figure facilitating the rise of Antisemitism and Neo-Nazism in the church. He has earned so much respect from people on both sides-- He could have brokered reconciliation and he could have led both sides to treat each other as brothers with maximum charity. He could have tamped down on the public animosity. Instead, he has quietly taken one side (the less defensible side, given the public information), has explained nothing, and has attacked "anons" on X. Wow.
Did anyone who wrote this statement even look up what disillusionment means? LOL "We affirm that disillusionment and resentment make a person vulnerable to deception and frequently prepare the ground for accepting new falsehoods, setting the stage for further disillusionment."
I would love to see a conversation by Jon regarding these same ministers discussing the blossoming branch of Reformed eschatology whose postmillennial view has been elevated to a primary issue because it impacts how they interpret scripture. The Bible becomes viewed through this lens and any other interpretation is in error. There is a belief that anyone believing differently has not received the illumination they have.... perhaps a hint of gnosticism? Their emphasis on the infiltration of believers into every area of society until the whole world is basically "Christian" sounds alarmingly like the NAR's 7 Mountain Mandate....just minus the self-appointed apostles and prophets. Anyone else notice this?
I like your summary of the situation at the beginning, well done. I think its generally fair but leaning towards siding w/ Joel. My belief is that bears much more responsibility for the current situation than Tobias. Having Listened to the original conversation w/ Tobias and Joel and miscellanies other voices, as well as Joels youtube, and Tobias's rebuttal. As stated other times I believe you would be a level headed person to have in the room when apologies, forgiveness and reconciliation happens.
Bruh this is insane. Antioch Declaration cliff notes in short: "we've been proven wrong, but we're gonna die planting this flag on an imaginary hill for piety points because you never know we may be right some day"
I tend to like Doug Wilson. I do not think I like this for the most part though. I think this would have been much better stated if Jeff Durbin had written it. It reads exactly like a DW blog, like you said. It’s incredibly awkward. And it definitely sounds like they just dislike Joel…a lot.
Is it innocuous to joke that the holocaust is a Jewish conspiracy because they are lazy? Coming from a guy who is currently being mentored away from his previous beliefs in that respect?
The concern you're rightly getting at with putting out a statement against the thing you have an issue with, *before* verifying whether or not your friend/brother is guilty of that thing, is dishonest. It's sneaky, it's cowardly, and it's calculated/intentional. Saying "I'll take time to think about whether or not I'll change my mind," and then using that time to double down instead is, in fact, lying. It's shameful, and all of these men should know better. And if they *do* know better, and they have a more complete picture of the situation then it needs to be shared at this point - because otherwise the public perception will continue to get worse, and more harm will be done to the Kingdom and to their ministries.
Thank you brother..... ...same theology, same confession (i believe the most biblical), same conviction in recent controversies, but than that very unnecessary division......about what? ....these men are not just random young christians but pastors who lead other Christians becore the Lord of hosts Mark 3:24-25 (KJV) And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Who are they talking about?: Stone Choir and their listeners. If you haven’t actually listened to them then you will have a significant piece of the puzzle missing. This is NOT about Joel but the situation regarding Joel is the fallout of Stone Choir “Theology” …THAT is what the declaration is about.
James White and Doug Wilson are under spiritual attack. Pray for them that they would see their error. Then repent to Joel and the Ogden crew (etc.) for these actions.
1:10:00 It is not a serious document. The very first article, which you appropriately laughed at, demonstrates this. It's a pithy aside that I would enjoy hearing in one of Doug Wilson's commentaries but it's not a serious statement for a supposedly august "declaration" such as this.
The signers list is loaded with Federal Vision people, many out of CREC. Also there are a lot of people who were recruited (probably by the same people) to sign the anti-full preterism statement that came out some time ago.
It’s almost like shutting down the ability to have a dialogue is an embarrassingly bad look for you 🤔🤔🤔. In both cases they wish for excommunication on legit gospel believing Christians. Honestly a disgusting approach by these leaders.
I'm a European Lutheran so I don't know enough about American reformed circles to know if Webbon is as bad as they say or what else might be wrong about the declaration. But I do know that seeker sensitivity, but for the hard right and insane ethnos first, God second views are spreading among the Christian right and we need to stop it. I'm quite far right myself but I'm still frustrated by what we are willing to tolerate.
Hey I just found this account today and I really liked your thoughts and format! That being said, I am 40 minutes in or so and I have legitimately seen 8-10 ads. Why are there so many ad breaks? Makes me not want to watch.
It seems to me that James, Joe, Doug etc. are aiming their guns at a bigger problem, that being actual antisemitism in ostensibly reformed circles online (James' wording), but the situation around Joel and Tobias just exacerbated the issue with Tobias being a clear instigator of the controversy. James, having a long trusted relationship with Tobias, has little reason to distrust his friend. The removal of Tobias' video by Eschatology Matters obviously shows that Tobias has some questionable character or (more charitably) some questionable tactics when it comes to conflict resolution. Of course, Joels first video on the matter, I believe, didn't help resolve or promote an air of civility either given that he did take pocket knife jabs at Tobias; especially with the "no one will remember your name" comment. All that being said, I'm not convinced that James and Doug believe that Joel is an antisemite and I'm not so sure that they necessarily are scapegoating him either whereas I do perceive that in Tobias' intentions with his accusations in his EM video. James and Doug are firing the canons at a real threat and Tobias seems to be the one making sure the shots hit Joel specifically. Essentially, it seems like the older men are taking shots at Joel only because he stands in a similar enough direction of those they are actually aiming at and if he get's hit with the buck shots, that's on Joel for standing their in the first place; right or wrong. Lastly, I believe Joel is doing the right thing by not abandoning this man in his church who he's discipling. The man's comments appear to reveal someone who was more antisemitic in the past, but has since been rebuked and corrected under Joels pastoral care. Now, I love AD. His fiery attitude is endearing, but I don't believe it's helping the situation at all. Though I believe his heart's in the right place, his comments do come off as combative and divisive. The tongue is a fiery instrument of restless evil (James 3:6-8) for whoever restrains his words has knowledge, and he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding. Even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise; when he closes his lips, he is deemed intelligent (Prov. 17:27-28). I think James’ assessment is fair on AD. His comments are quick and presumptuous. Even if he’s right, they still provoke more tension than relieve it. The Antioch Declaration doesn’t scream, Joel Webbon is an antisemite, but it does appropriately point its guns at genuine antisemitism in the church. And for that reason, I’ve signed the statement. Even the Westminster Assembly drafted documents around controversy and personal attacks, but we still hold these documents to represent truth or at least the pursuit of truth. Personal baggage aside, the declaration stands good in my opinion. Documents like the Apostles Creed included historical truths invovling political leaders crucifying our Lord. If we can (hyperbolically) sign that statement, why not this one too, friends?
If true that Doug and James are not accusing Joel or are even considering him in their thoughts/statements/actions, then they need to come out and say it, and they need to publicly apologize for the part they played in spreading the first accusations by Tobias. True that real problems need to be addressed seriously - but also true that real errors and failures need to be apologized for.
@ And what if Doug and James believed they were sharing Tobias’s video in good faith. The information they had to go off of was Tobias‘s words. If Tobias was misleading them that’s on Tobias. The situation is more complex than Doug and James nefariously sharing a video with false information in it knowingly. I don’t believe that to be true at all.
@pinkdiscomosh2766 I agree that that's possible, and I hope that's the case. However, that doesn't negate the consequences of sharing it, or the need for an apology. Especially A) if they shared the video without all the facts, and B) considering the events that have happened since.
It's not just taking shots at Joel Webbon, it's also trying to lump in Stephan Wolfe and Andrew Iskar. Iskar believes that the great ingathering of Jews Paul wrote about in Romans 11 happened before 70AD. It's out of line with the puritans, and I disagree with Iskar, but it's nothing to write home about. I see it as a difference in opinion. Then the stuff about blood and soil and Aristotle is another attempt to try to lambast Stephan Wolfe and Andrew Iskar, yet again. Of course it's a strawman of their position, but theres a lot of heat on them that the older guye are now trying to distance themselves.
Iskar's interpretation that the Jews to be gathered in refers to pre-70 AD was vigorously promoted some decades ago by James Jordan, as I recall. He is the theological godfather of all the Federal Visionists who are so eagerly signing the declaration.
So I think the biggest problem regardless of what people think about the statement is that Doug etc never talk about or review the relevant news articles or historical facts people are talking about to try to be debunk or explain them the way they should be interpreted so as to dispel their bad thinking. It’s like they’re saying “we are wise and understand what’s going on but going into details is beneath us and it’s probably anti-Semitic to even talk about it. We are wise trust us 😉. And if you don’t we will slander you as a mouth breather racist Nazi.”
Thanks again for your balanced approach. I don’t fully understand the whole dynamics but what I picked up from all this is, this is not edifying to the body of Christ especially to the less mature ones, it’s a stumbling block and leads to division. There might even be false brethren among us who will further ignite the flame of dissension which is what we are warned about not to do in Galatians. Let’s pray for unity in truth and love as Jesus’ high priestly prayer for us.
The state of Christianity is indeed a sorry one if a meme shared by a anon church member causes such emotional wreckage among "Godly men". Then we wonder why the world scoffs at us. Some self awareness is lacking and sorely needed.
I’ve seen the videos where pastors argue against the “WW2 narrative,” like the holocaust didn’t matter. Like Germany was really the good guys…implying America should have fought against Russia, UK, and France. That the holocaust really wasn’t that awful. Of course this makes a huge conspiracy between the allies and Germany and all of the skiny skeletons of people not yet murdered were all actors. And finally they lay all of the blame on Jews.
It makes absolute perfect sense if you understand the mass brainwashing behind it. Most people absolutely refuse to grapple with this issue specifically but never wonder why that is.
For those of us who follow Joel and used to support him He is absolutely guilty of 'being soft on' antisemitism. I still don't know why the issue has become the meetings and the meme. The issue is, Joel has been soft peddling "post war consensus" terminology as it relates to antisemitismwith Isker (who motte and bailey's behind hard supercessionism) for months now. It is public information, all can see it. Go to right response and see for yourself. Also he has other videos dedicated to the subject behind the paywall - more are set to be released. Note the presupposition and selective handling of Romans 11 as a basis for their stance, ignoring the latter half of the chapter entirely. In this case, its as though Tobias picked this single weak issue as a 'hill to die on' and then misrepresented the severity. This ultimately hurt the case that needs to be made towards Joel, Isker and others in this growing movement. A real missed or perhaps misplaced opportunity. I am willing to bet the meme 'issue wasn't the issue' with Tobias. His concern is toward Joel based on Joels own words. This instance was just the tip of the iceberg. Regardless, it still it wasn't handled well. They (James, Doug, Durbin & Tobias) should have engaged directly with his public videos and publicly stated presuppositions instead. As far as the Antioch Declaration, it is timely and absolutely targeted towards Joel, Isker, AD, Stone Choir and all who adopt the "pre-war german consensus" towards the jews.
I hereby declare that I had this CD playing in my car just this very day, and I quite like it: ua-cam.com/video/tBssAhyTetY/v-deo.html But that's all I know about Antioch.
Thank you for covering this, it was very helpful. As I see the Reformed Tradition more and more split over politics it makes me believe more and more in Amillennialism, that Christ's Kingdom is not of this world, and the organized church must stay out of politics.
That statement is written to appeal to ignorance. Any Christian who doesn't know what it's about can sign it, and anyone who does know what it's about and doesn't sign it looks like a villain. White and Wilson have turned their wisdom into witchcraft, and should be judged harshly for it.
I think he means they’re using their powers for evil, in that they’re using incredibly vague terminology and in a way that is not open and honest and are using this as a means to “other” brothers in Christ who are orthodox theologically but disagree about a certain historical narrative
Let's assume your statement is true, and the declaration contains vague and general truth which "insiders" then would take as proof that Joel Webbon & co are wrong. Anyone like Joel Webbon should be able to sign his name to it's general truth, and explain how this general truth doesn't apply to his situation. Should be a matter of a few minutes/tweets. If someone can't add his voice to the truth because they don't like who said it or what it might imply, that's immature at best. Now, if you want to make the case that the declaration contains falsehoods, you would have to bring actual proof.
@@RebekkaMH13 should be a matter of a few minutes for Tobias to apologize and repent for slandering Joel, but James white told everyone to “sit down and shut up and be patient”… and it’s been a month. Joel is the last one in this situation acting immature. You can’t sign a petition against “anti semitism” when they don’t define it. It wouldn’t be a stretch to say they’d consider Jon saying that Jews are over represented in the p*rn industry as antisemitic.
I have a pretty serious issue with putting out a pseudo-theological declaration that includes several statements about history. I don't disagree with the facts they are speaking about, but there is no place for "you need to believe this about history" in a "theological" declaration.
From the declaration:
“WE DENY that any particular view of the Allied leaders, their strategies, or tactics during World War II should be a test of Christian orthodoxy.”
Pretty sure they’re not making history a point of Christian doctrine other than what the Bible says.
Concur. If they are going this direction they need to demonstrate how exactly believing certain recent historical facts is a sin. Obviously there is one major historical fact that is required in Christianity, the birth, death and resurrection of Christ. But saying there are men deserving of church discipline, somehow in sin, or somehow unorthodox just because they believe something different about a 20th century, or 18th century historical narrative, is really questionable.
Sure there is. For example, you need to believe that Jesus was a real person who existed at a specific time in history in a specific place geographically. We need theological statements that insert necessary historical views because of how easy it is for Christians to start separating their faith from the rest of their worldview. It’s fine not to agree with this particular statement, but it is an error to say that historical beliefs can’t be incorporated into theological statements.
@@Sensible_centrist I agree with what @stryker said. There are SOME historical events that we need to believe because they are communicated in God's word. Making ANY other historical event some sort of test of orthodoxy is wrong. Now, technically they did not say it was a test of orthodoxy in this document. However, it is very strange to include it at all and it muddies the waters because many people will take it as some sort of test of orthodoxy even if it isn't stated as such. It's almost implied that it's wrong not to believe it.
@@Sensible_centrist this is a non sequitur. The framework of belief requirements one must affirm in participation of a globalized organized religion isn't the same as data points dealing with technically the most weaponized and Inflammatory event in modern human history intertwined with fantasy and political agendas. Asking how 6 million people were unalived on the second floor of a 2 room building with wooden and unsealed doors isn't antisemitism. Or questioning the motives of a conglomerate of nations to push a post war consensus through disinformation is also not the same as believing Jesus is God.
This is all very sad. To see the characterization of those who doubt their views on Israel and the Jews as being "incels" and "internet randos", in fact, from what I read, I see a lot of grown men who were tutored by Wilson and White to think Biblically and reject regime narratives. These men, most of which genuinely love White and Wilson, now find themselves attacked in a rather passive aggressive fashion which typifies big eva. This whole event once more directly demonstrates the foolishness of nameless accusation in matters of public disagreement. It sows needless division. Be men. Name names.
It's the Antijoel Declaration
We need a ProJoel declaration.
Associating with Joel is a fools errand.
I get that it’s directed at Joel. But there is nothing wrong with the statements.
James White's views on CN and Steven Wolfe are part of this dialogue.
@@darrelljackson6175 yes sir! That is the catalyst for all this mess.
Definitely. James White is the puppet master in this whole affair and he is doing it because there was a Reformed Baptist star on the rise that liked Stephen Wolfe and was an avowed Christian Nationalist and White couldn’t take that laying down.
The statement is using a shotgun when it should have used a sniper rifle. Christians all over disagree about the historical narrative of Genesis, and there is little heartache, but the second someone has questions about some reported numbers in WW2, it's fire everywhere. Seems off to me.... And if anything, it draws more attention.
Little heartache? There's arguing over it everyday, there's entire ministries like answersingenesis to fight heresy of evolutionism.
@DarioHawkeye oh I'm sorry, I must have missed the Genesis statement from AIG, where they say if you differ in understanding to me, you throw all of history into question, and you are obviously just some young fool being duped. Oh wait.... That statement doesn't exist. Grow up and see what's in front of you. The WW2 narrative is a sacred cow, and these guys will not tolerate any questions. This statement creates division in a destructive manner. I happen to agree with tons of it, but not all. And because I am not 100% with them, they see me as 100% against them.
@@DarioHawkeyeAiG is primarily combatting atheists evolutionist. Sure there are some people who try to go the foolish theistic evolution route, but AiG is in no way constantly fighting that battle. That just happens to be included in the actual fight they are having.
Who got mad at questions being asked?
Which questions did they get mad over?
Which question did they all talk and blogg about?
Pretending that "those people" just don't want anything to be questioned isn't truthful. In fact, I have yet to find a person who says with conviction that it was definitely exactly or at least 6.000.000. The issue isn't with asking questions. The issue is with what people are asserting. Just because the mainstream lies all the time, doesn't mean nobody died unjustly. How many people would have had to die unjustly for a situation to be bad? Are we saying it has to be 6.000.000 to be bad? Are we not Christians anymore who believe an individual human made in God's image has a right to due (biblical) process, with 2-3 witnesses being required? Why can't we condemn sinful actions in the past that certainly didn't apply biblical justice?
@@RebekkaMH13 Who is saying no one died unjustly? Questioning is exactly the issue, did you read the statement? If you question the evidence surrounding this whole thing, then you throw all of history into question according to these guys. We can condemn sinful actions in the past....but you cannot question if the reporting of actions being sinful or unjust is accurate. If it wasn't 6mil, then what was the number, and what is the evidence. Be careful how far down that road you go. You might find yourself being one of those young fools called out in the statement.
If they’d allowed Jon to re-write this egregiously worded declaration it would have saved everyone else a lot of time!
I really appreciated Joseph Spurgeon's X post on the Declaration. I also agree with a post on it by The Other Paul though, that some further specificity on some terms would still be needed.
"The Other Paul" promotes the Nazi's heretical "positive christianity" movement which removed the old testament from scriptures, took out parts of the new, and morphed Jesus into some bizarre aryan volk-hero.
It would have been more straight forward to simply say “We are concerned that non-Christian, political, ideology from the Right is becoming a seducing and corrupting influence in Reformed Christianity. We specifically denounce racism, hatred of Jewish people, Holocaust denialism, Nazism, and white nationalism. We call upon Christians to exercise discernment when exploring or espousing political ideologies that may overtly or subtly either mislead Christians into error, or at least damage their witness.” I would likely sign that in a heartbeat.
Have you ever actually even looked at the evidence? You “disavow” but do you even know what you’re “disavowing”? THAT is the true cowardice here. And this is nothing more than bullying. And they have they audacity to call themselves men of God.
Most of your denounce sentence is either irrelevant, duplicative, or doesn't require denouncing. This may be a summarized version of what they intended, but it should just be...We denounce hatred of any people based on their race or ethnicity.
Few if any Christians would not sign that.
@@genuineimitation8799The evidence of what? Be specific as to what you are advocating for. Also, please note that you quoted me as stating “disavow,” when the word I used was “denounce.” Please correct yourself.
@@EverEverOnI’m not sure that those things don’t need to be specifically called out. There does appear to be some attempt by some vocal people to intermix Reformed Christianity with some or all of those things. Even if those people are only a small segment of the Reformed Christian community, they make themselves very visible in on-line discourse. They have serious potential to both mislead Christians and damage the witness of Christians. Its already a troupe of the unbelieving world to call Christians “Nazis.” We ought not espouse rhetoric that appears to confirm that stereotype.
@ I’m not going to spoon feed you. Just watch Joel’s original video about it. Bet you haven’t. As for the rest, get over yourself. I’m not correcting anything, especially with that kind of ridiculous attitude.
In addition to Equipping the Persecuted, I would also recommend giving to HeartCry Missionary Society, Paul Washer's missionary group with an emphasis on raising up indigenous pastors.
Jon have you heard of David Irving and his trial over h*l*c*st denial? He was a well respected historian who had everyone turn on him when he did research into you know what. His discoveries are quite fascinating.
Even so, this isn’t something to be excommunicated for. It’s utterly ridiculous what they’ve done to the church member and Joel. Joel has said the member is repentant and in good standing. That should end the matter.
Denial of the thing is a literal crime in Germany. You don’t need to criminalize criticism of something if it’s true…
Yes, I’ve read his book on Nuremberg.
@@SerenityNow22 bingo. And to do so only makes people wonder what that's all about.
@@SerenityNow22 Haha, just because criminalizing it was a mistake doesn't prove it didn't happen. That's not how logic works.
Joel makes a fool of himself almost weekly. He has no clue about WW2. My Uncle saw one of the camps first hand when he was a soldier. There are mountains of evidence and testimony. Joel is a sophomore.
This airing of interpersonal disagreements between Christian UA-cam/social media personalities is getting really gay. It’s especially egregious coming from guys who claim to be trying to reassert masculinity into Christian culture. Handle your business behind closed doors, literally and/or figuratively.
Agree and we should hold pastors to a higher standard but they have a history of public drama. It's rare for older men to change too.
Bingo
@@Sensible_centrist literally the last thing I wanted to talk about
I really appreciate your insight on this. Super helpful. Keep up the good work brother.
Jon, this video was super helpful. Ive been so confused about this whole thing (even though I've followed it pretty much from the start), but your summary made it very clear. Thank you. God bless you and your sweet family.
The reference to Aristotle and blood and soil is probably from James White, who has been using that language, and who is alarmed by the growing influence of Thomists in the Baptist world. It is not just Wolfe's political views but a lot of Baptists in the seminaries.
Yes. This all stems from White trying to keep the Baptist faith pure…at least as he sees it. Webbon didn’t even have to be a Thomist to draw his ire. He just had to be friendly with one.
What’s also sad is how much effort and energy this is potentially taking away from these men’s various ministries and witness.
And permanent damage to the Antioch guys' reputation and credibility.
As always, I really enjoy how well-balanced and fair you are to both sides.
They should have apologised and reconciled with Pastor Joel Webbon. We don't need the statement.
Thanks for taking the time to discuss the Declaration. I do hope you are able to get a conversation going with the known persons on either side. I have seen some say that the Declaration was intended to start or continue the conversation already begun, but it doesn’t read that way to me. It reads more like lines drawn in the sand and a choice between sides unclearly drawn.
The goal should have been to be able to craft a statement like this AT THE END of a conflict, after there has been resolution and reconciliation, that all parties can sign. In the middle of a conflict, when one side has still yet to provide a defense/answer for clearly slandering the other, can only cause division and reduce the chances of reconciliation
I believe what my ancestors say about my enemy, not what my enemy says about my ancestors.
It's like a telenovela in the reformed world.
Declarations can be technically correct but still not worth signing. The timing or situation in which a declaration is issued can make it counter productive.
This needs to be shared everywhere it can and White, Wilson, Durbin needs to see this video, especially
The Statement is a mixture of obvious truisms and freshman sociology jargon.
Not even a year ago, Lig Duncan passively takes a shot at Moscow. Moscow responds with true Christian gentleness by inviting the host of that podcast to come to Moscow and talk. And they thanked the guy for having a conversation. That’s how they handled being attacked. Now they’re doing the same thing to a guy who actually loves and respects them. Plus, they’re not even allowing Joel to pastor his church.
This whole back and forth… could it be any more unattractive? It’s like girls or gay boys getting into an argument in the park. Sooooo gay
This is the stuff that makes young men annoyed with the reformed world. We have to do better
?? Has anyone considered the cultural differences that may factor into the sensitivity/ reaction by Tobias??
John, I am glad you were able to speak with Joel about the Tobias issue. I find Joel to be a very humble guy. I am a big supporter of him. I have been keeping up with the issue between Joel and this Tobias guy. I think all of this mess starts with the conflict between James White and Stephen Wolfe. I know you are fully aware of these things. James White is bitter against Joel over his allegiance to Stephen Wolfe. The meme issue was an opportunity for James White to poke at Joel Webbon.
I don’t think this is the root. I think the root is that Joel, Andrew Iskar , and others have a historic view o the passages in Romans 11 about the infilling of the Jews. That would make modern Israel just another nation not God’s “special people”. Joel and Andrew did an episode after the Hamas attacks on 10/7/23 about Who are Israel. This was a very good episode and actually a paradigm shifter for me. The used many scriptures and it was well reasoned. The old guard it seems looks at Israel dispensationally, and don’t like another interpretation.
@ maybe check out some of Jeff Durbin’s messages on Israel, more specifically on Matthew 24. His views are much against a current Jewish nation than Joel Webbon’s views.
@joeyrose1245 And that's what makes his involvement with this business leading up to the Antioch statement all the more confusing.
@ yes sir
Pastor Tobias is building a case, not an apology. That’s why his statement is taking so long. It doesn’t take multiple weeks to say “I was wrong about XYZ, and I’m sorry.”
The statement starts out talking about how Paul opposed Peter to his face, publicly. And so these guys put out statement of their position rather than have a public face to face conversation with Joel Webbon? That is by far the worst part. They also refuse to name whom they are speaking about in their public broadcasts (got to maintain plausible deniability regarding false accusations).
Both in their unwillingness to actually grapple with the claims made and in this ridiculous “declaration” is pure cowardice. Unreal.
Just posing a question out of curiosity but is it truly wise to sign the declaration if you don't agree with everything being stated in the declaration? Isn't the whole point of signing it an affirmation that you do in fact agree with all of the aforementioned statements in said declaration?
Jon, I have followed this for some time and watched both Joel and Tobias videos.
Tobias is German, and English is his second language. It was apparent watching his video, and he struggled sometimes with our language. Also, I think the member that put out this meme was a member of his church in Germany before morning to the United States. The Holocaust was very evil
as we know by reading history books of WW2. I believe that it really hits home to the German people and is a black mark on their country. Having watched interviews of Holocaust survivors from the 70s and 80s, the impact was life changing for me. I, to this day, am horrified by what happened to the Jews in WW2. Plus, look what happened on October 7th.
So yes, I can see where Tobias and Dr. White are coming from.
I watch you, Jeff Durbin, AD, Joel Webbon, and Doug Wilson, and I appreciate all of you.
I hope this gets settled so we can move on and chalk it up as a lesson
learned. There are some big dragons out there that we still need to slay. God Bless!
Language barriers do complicate things. That’s one of the reasons I didn’t give him a hard time about calling for a church council when he meant arbitration I think.
@@michaelbratsch5157 No one is arguing that the narrative as taught is not horrifying. What is in question is the validity of the narrative. Look around you at all the things that suck. Pornography, usury, abortion, feminism, Marxism, gender theory, transgenderism, mass migration. Go dig a bit and see who is creating all of this filth, and why. Good luck.
It’s insane that having a differing view on historical events has driven these men to such pearl clutching.
Do they church discipline for moon landing denial? Or disagreeing about any claims about Stalin or Mao’s genocide? Of course not.
@@MansterBear exactly. they didn't even do this with regard to some people disagreeing about the historical realities of the book of Genesis.
@@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast
I fibd the joke funny
The Tobias thing seems like it might be a proxy war with Steven Wolf (at least in part). It seems like James has some serious issues with Steven and his reliance on philosophical categories to inform his theology rather than using scripture to inform it. (Not to mention Stevens ad hominem insults at JW).
Sad the amount of damage that's being done both to the Kingdom and to these men's ministries because of arrogance and pride. The hardest words in the English language to say really are, "I'm sorry, I apologize - please forgive me." Especially the older you get. Hopefully these wise men can all see their own errors and come to one another in humility and repentance.
Well done.
The declaration is very clear and straightforward. Signed!
it's nonsense
I'm with you, Jon. The time for the statement condemning the sin is AFTER you've reconciled. Otherwise, you're piling accusations.
The point about Aristotle might actually be directly about the member of Joel’s church. If I recollect the Zoom call recording correctly, Tobias rebuked him for using Aristotle as a worthy teacher or something.
It's more likely a jab against Stephen Wolfe and his natural law arguments and very public arguments with James White. But, no one really knows, which is why this sort of declaration is really dumb.
Where is the recording?
James White said “Shut up and Sit Down” … that’s what the old “wise” arrogant owl said….
James ‘sit down & shut up’ White is why many young men avoid church. He’s like a cult leader from Central Casting.
So I think the biggest problem regardless of what people think about the statement is that Doug etc never talk about or review the relevant news articles or historical facts people are talking about to try to be debunk or explain them the way they should be interpreted so as to dispel their bad thinking.
It’s like they’re saying “we are wise and understand what’s going on but going into details is beneath us and it’s probably anti-Semitic to even talk about it. We are wise trust us 😉. And if you don’t we will slander you as a mouth breather racist Nazi.”
And they should sit down.
This was better than AD's.
Yep😂😂😂
He got me good 😅
Lol 😂 I couldn’t believe he did that to us!
I agree with James White on many things, but he’s really off with his reaction to this whole thing. Just a sad situation for reformed Christians.
As the world turns
100%
Tobias, living in Germany, isn't allowed, by law, to question "the holocaust".
Weird, innit?
I would say that’s a red flag but that might be taken the wrong way….
When that Big Eva guy went on the nuance podcast and criticized The Moscow crowd while refusing to name them Doug et al were rightly annoyed, it's sad to see them do seemingly the same here.
Actually, it's not just the alt-right (whatever THAT means). There seem to be some "Big EVA" fans out there who are also enjoying the drama.
The authors of the Antioch Statement probably should have read William Zinnser’s book titled On Writing Well. If you want people to understand your points, write like that matters to you.
Is there anyone in James White’s life who can tell him to stop being so arrogant and he will actually listen?
Michael Belch, with Right Response Ministries is writing a book on What is a Nation? 2:00:55
I tried reading the AD. Wanted to poke myself in the eye avout one paragraph in. I doubt anything so convoluded. The evangelical world is like a bad carnival act.
I think you're missing it. There was a racial component to the Judaisers. While the process of becoming a proselyte could be considered merely legal, there was a forsaking of former identities and becoming a Jew.
The genetic component of racism is a 20th century phenomenon.
The issue does come down to identities that actually transcend ethnicity. It's not merely "the Law" because the division with Peter did come down to distancing himself from Gentiles and identifying with "his people"
Joel is a good man. White and Wilson needs to repent and apologize to him.
I’d like a Biblical statement on fat pastors. Maybe something about gluttony and self-control. Or would this offend Tobias and Doug?
@@b.t.3406Didn't Joel preach about gluttony?
It seems very beta to write a letter like this against Joel and not even name his name. The effeminacy runs deep even in the elder reformed pastorate.
@@Cinnamonbuns13: If you have the link, please share. I like a good anti-gluttony sermon.
Joel is proud and unbiblical
2:00:15
Yes!
A statement on "what is a nation" is ABSOLUTELY needed and would do a much better job of answering the things that it seems the Antioch Declaration (largely) was intended to address.
If I may suggest the name: "Some Babel from the Areopagus" in reference to the Tower of Babel, where the peoples were forcibly divided by a major divine act and Paul's statement in Acts 17:26 plus the fact that the locals called him a "babbler". Ok that name mostly a dad joke...or is it?!?
Such a gay and unnecessary statement by a bunch of hysterical women who are embarrassing themselves.
Wow, such meticulously accurate refutations of the points the declaration is making. I'm thoroughly convinced by your arguments. 😂
For anyone that knows what’s going on this is very accurate 😂
It’s the pearl clutch heard ‘round the world
@@RebekkaMH13 who is trying to convince you? I'm happy if all the virtue signaling ideologues identify themselves by publicly supporting something so stupid that was only generated to officially declare "teams".
Nothing incorrect in the statement that I see whether or not there is a Joel Webbon controversy.
If you say it’s a “gay statement,” then I conclude you’re possessed by a demon.
Doug Wilson's role in all of this is the most disappointing thing for me. His actions appear to show that he has taken the side of Joel's accusers, who have accused him of being a key figure facilitating the rise of Antisemitism and Neo-Nazism in the church. He has earned so much respect from people on both sides-- He could have brokered reconciliation and he could have led both sides to treat each other as brothers with maximum charity. He could have tamped down on the public animosity. Instead, he has quietly taken one side (the less defensible side, given the public information), has explained nothing, and has attacked "anons" on X. Wow.
Did anyone who wrote this statement even look up what disillusionment means? LOL
"We affirm that disillusionment and resentment make a person vulnerable to deception and frequently prepare the ground for accepting new falsehoods, setting the stage for further disillusionment."
I would love to see a conversation by Jon regarding these same ministers discussing the blossoming branch of Reformed eschatology whose postmillennial view has been elevated to a primary issue because it impacts how they interpret scripture. The Bible becomes viewed through this lens and any other interpretation is in error. There is a belief that anyone believing differently has not received the illumination they have.... perhaps a hint of gnosticism? Their emphasis on the infiltration of believers into every area of society until the whole world is basically "Christian" sounds alarmingly like the NAR's 7 Mountain Mandate....just minus the self-appointed apostles and prophets. Anyone else notice this?
Yes
Absolutely. If it smells bad, walk away! No need to linger around and be subject to the stink
There needs to apologies made , not irrelevant declarations
I like your summary of the situation at the beginning, well done. I think its generally fair but leaning towards siding w/ Joel. My belief is that bears much more responsibility for the current situation than Tobias. Having Listened to the original conversation w/ Tobias and Joel and miscellanies other voices, as well as Joels youtube, and Tobias's rebuttal. As stated other times I believe you would be a level headed person to have in the room when apologies, forgiveness and reconciliation happens.
Please don't pull an AD lol 😂
Eric Luppold is a signer. He was just on your podcast.
@@rebeccanoll3130 That’s fine.
Bruh this is insane. Antioch Declaration cliff notes in short: "we've been proven wrong, but we're gonna die planting this flag on an imaginary hill for piety points because you never know we may be right some day"
Maybe they're hoping for a free trip to Israel.
@b.t.3406 😂😂😂
Jeez guys how is there so much infighting in reformed youtube.
This thing between Webbon and Tobias should have never come out into the open. I blame both.
Webbon didn't say a word about it in public until Tobias forced him to.
@abigailtalbott4768 he didn't need to say anything. He should have stayed quiet.
@Playlist849236 I'm currious, if Joel is guilty because he responded to Tobias's accusations how should he have responded?
I tend to like Doug Wilson. I do not think I like this for the most part though. I think this would have been much better stated if Jeff Durbin had written it. It reads exactly like a DW blog, like you said. It’s incredibly awkward. And it definitely sounds like they just dislike Joel…a lot.
When getting butt hurt about innocuous jokes goes to far. Lost so much respect for White/Wilson on this one.
Is it innocuous to joke that the holocaust is a Jewish conspiracy because they are lazy? Coming from a guy who is currently being mentored away from his previous beliefs in that respect?
The concern you're rightly getting at with putting out a statement against the thing you have an issue with, *before* verifying whether or not your friend/brother is guilty of that thing, is dishonest. It's sneaky, it's cowardly, and it's calculated/intentional. Saying "I'll take time to think about whether or not I'll change my mind," and then using that time to double down instead is, in fact, lying. It's shameful, and all of these men should know better.
And if they *do* know better, and they have a more complete picture of the situation then it needs to be shared at this point - because otherwise the public perception will continue to get worse, and more harm will be done to the Kingdom and to their ministries.
Thank you brother.....
...same theology, same confession (i believe the most biblical), same conviction in recent controversies, but than that very unnecessary division......about what?
....these men are not just random young christians but pastors who lead other Christians becore the Lord of hosts
Mark 3:24-25 (KJV) And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Who are they talking about?: Stone Choir and their listeners. If you haven’t actually listened to them then you will have a significant piece of the puzzle missing. This is NOT about Joel but the situation regarding Joel is the fallout of Stone Choir “Theology” …THAT is what the declaration is about.
James White and Doug Wilson are under spiritual attack. Pray for them that they would see their error. Then repent to Joel and the Ogden crew (etc.) for these actions.
Don’t attribute a spiritual battle to something that can be attributed to Boomeritus.
Really trying to resist signing the declaration as Adolf Repentler right now.
1:10:00 It is not a serious document. The very first article, which you appropriately laughed at, demonstrates this. It's a pithy aside that I would enjoy hearing in one of Doug Wilson's commentaries but it's not a serious statement for a supposedly august "declaration" such as this.
@28:35 agreed 100. Man's pride tend to get in the way quite often, I speak from personal experience so I am an authority on the issue of pride.
Good podcast but too many adds
The signers list is loaded with Federal Vision people, many out of CREC. Also there are a lot of people who were recruited (probably by the same people) to sign the anti-full preterism statement that came out some time ago.
It’s almost like shutting down the ability to have a dialogue is an embarrassingly bad look for you 🤔🤔🤔. In both cases they wish for excommunication on legit gospel believing Christians. Honestly a disgusting approach by these leaders.
I'm a European Lutheran so I don't know enough about American reformed circles to know if Webbon is as bad as they say or what else might be wrong about the declaration. But I do know that seeker sensitivity, but for the hard right and insane ethnos first, God second views are spreading among the Christian right and we need to stop it. I'm quite far right myself but I'm still frustrated by what we are willing to tolerate.
You guys need to relax a little!
Hey I just found this account today and I really liked your thoughts and format! That being said, I am 40 minutes in or so and I have legitimately seen 8-10 ads. Why are there so many ad breaks? Makes me not want to watch.
Wow. That's insane. I'll check. I don't even manually put in that many.
Holocaust deniers always seem so disappointed.
It seems to me that James, Joe, Doug etc. are aiming their guns at a bigger problem, that being actual antisemitism in ostensibly reformed circles online (James' wording), but the situation around Joel and Tobias just exacerbated the issue with Tobias being a clear instigator of the controversy. James, having a long trusted relationship with Tobias, has little reason to distrust his friend. The removal of Tobias' video by Eschatology Matters obviously shows that Tobias has some questionable character or (more charitably) some questionable tactics when it comes to conflict resolution. Of course, Joels first video on the matter, I believe, didn't help resolve or promote an air of civility either given that he did take pocket knife jabs at Tobias; especially with the "no one will remember your name" comment.
All that being said, I'm not convinced that James and Doug believe that Joel is an antisemite and I'm not so sure that they necessarily are scapegoating him either whereas I do perceive that in Tobias' intentions with his accusations in his EM video. James and Doug are firing the canons at a real threat and Tobias seems to be the one making sure the shots hit Joel specifically. Essentially, it seems like the older men are taking shots at Joel only because he stands in a similar enough direction of those they are actually aiming at and if he get's hit with the buck shots, that's on Joel for standing their in the first place; right or wrong.
Lastly, I believe Joel is doing the right thing by not abandoning this man in his church who he's discipling. The man's comments appear to reveal someone who was more antisemitic in the past, but has since been rebuked and corrected under Joels pastoral care. Now, I love AD. His fiery attitude is endearing, but I don't believe it's helping the situation at all. Though I believe his heart's in the right place, his comments do come off as combative and divisive. The tongue is a fiery instrument of restless evil (James 3:6-8) for whoever restrains his words has knowledge, and he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding. Even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise; when he closes his lips, he is deemed intelligent (Prov. 17:27-28). I think James’ assessment is fair on AD. His comments are quick and presumptuous. Even if he’s right, they still provoke more tension than relieve it.
The Antioch Declaration doesn’t scream, Joel Webbon is an antisemite, but it does appropriately point its guns at genuine antisemitism in the church. And for that reason, I’ve signed the statement. Even the Westminster Assembly drafted documents around controversy and personal attacks, but we still hold these documents to represent truth or at least the pursuit of truth. Personal baggage aside, the declaration stands good in my opinion. Documents like the Apostles Creed included historical truths invovling political leaders crucifying our Lord. If we can (hyperbolically) sign that statement, why not this one too, friends?
One of the (very) few sane comments I've read on this situation.
If true that Doug and James are not accusing Joel or are even considering him in their thoughts/statements/actions, then they need to come out and say it, and they need to publicly apologize for the part they played in spreading the first accusations by Tobias. True that real problems need to be addressed seriously - but also true that real errors and failures need to be apologized for.
@ And what if Doug and James believed they were sharing Tobias’s video in good faith. The information they had to go off of was Tobias‘s words. If Tobias was misleading them that’s on Tobias. The situation is more complex than Doug and James nefariously sharing a video with false information in it knowingly. I don’t believe that to be true at all.
@pinkdiscomosh2766 I agree that that's possible, and I hope that's the case. However, that doesn't negate the consequences of sharing it, or the need for an apology.
Especially A) if they shared the video without all the facts, and B) considering the events that have happened since.
@@ffrock1901 I appreciate that, friend. 🙏🏼
So crazy. Aimee Byrd & Ye West (is that Kanye??) have their names on the signature list of this document.
Good job bro, thank you for being so well balanced and speaking to this issue with a level head. Can't stand the response from Doug and James.
I'm disappointed in Willson, he is basically doing to Webbon what others did to him when he questioned the southern slavery narrative.
It's not just taking shots at Joel Webbon, it's also trying to lump in Stephan Wolfe and Andrew Iskar. Iskar believes that the great ingathering of Jews Paul wrote about in Romans 11 happened before 70AD. It's out of line with the puritans, and I disagree with Iskar, but it's nothing to write home about. I see it as a difference in opinion. Then the stuff about blood and soil and Aristotle is another attempt to try to lambast Stephan Wolfe and Andrew Iskar, yet again. Of course it's a strawman of their position, but theres a lot of heat on them that the older guye are now trying to distance themselves.
Iskar's interpretation that the Jews to be gathered in refers to pre-70 AD was vigorously promoted some decades ago by James Jordan, as I recall. He is the theological godfather of all the Federal Visionists who are so eagerly signing the declaration.
So I think the biggest problem regardless of what people think about the statement is that Doug etc never talk about or review the relevant news articles or historical facts people are talking about to try to be debunk or explain them the way they should be interpreted so as to dispel their bad thinking.
It’s like they’re saying “we are wise and understand what’s going on but going into details is beneath us and it’s probably anti-Semitic to even talk about it. We are wise trust us 😉. And if you don’t we will slander you as a mouth breather racist Nazi.”
I listened to 15 minutes about the Jets. I live in Georgia.
Thanks again for your balanced approach. I don’t fully understand the whole dynamics but what I picked up from all this is, this is not edifying to the body of Christ especially to the less mature ones, it’s a stumbling block and leads to division. There might even be false brethren among us who will further ignite the flame of dissension which is what we are warned about not to do in Galatians. Let’s pray for unity in truth and love as Jesus’ high priestly prayer for us.
I should not have left this channel to watch AD.
The state of Christianity is indeed a sorry one if a meme shared by a anon church member causes such emotional wreckage among "Godly men". Then we wonder why the world scoffs at us. Some self awareness is lacking and sorely needed.
Agreed! It's a meme. Not something worth arguing over.
I’ve seen the videos where pastors argue against the “WW2 narrative,” like the holocaust didn’t matter. Like Germany was really the good guys…implying America should have fought against Russia, UK, and France. That the holocaust really wasn’t that awful. Of course this makes a huge conspiracy between the allies and Germany and all of the skiny skeletons of people not yet murdered were all actors. And finally they lay all of the blame on Jews.
It makes absolute perfect sense if you understand the mass brainwashing behind it. Most people absolutely refuse to grapple with this issue specifically but never wonder why that is.
For those of us who follow Joel and used to support him He is absolutely guilty of 'being soft on' antisemitism.
I still don't know why the issue has become the meetings and the meme. The issue is, Joel has been soft peddling "post war consensus" terminology as it relates to antisemitismwith Isker (who motte and bailey's behind hard supercessionism) for months now. It is public information, all can see it. Go to right response and see for yourself. Also he has other videos dedicated to the subject behind the paywall - more are set to be released. Note the presupposition and selective handling of Romans 11 as a basis for their stance, ignoring the latter half of the chapter entirely.
In this case, its as though Tobias picked this single weak issue as a 'hill to die on' and then misrepresented the severity. This ultimately hurt the case that needs to be made towards Joel, Isker and others in this growing movement. A real missed or perhaps misplaced opportunity. I am willing to bet the meme 'issue wasn't the issue' with Tobias. His concern is toward Joel based on Joels own words. This instance was just the tip of the iceberg. Regardless, it still it wasn't handled well. They (James, Doug, Durbin & Tobias) should have engaged directly with his public videos and publicly stated presuppositions instead.
As far as the Antioch Declaration, it is timely and absolutely targeted towards Joel, Isker, AD, Stone Choir and all who adopt the "pre-war german consensus" towards the jews.
Next time you do a podcast please consider a three minute introduction so we all know what you are talking about.
What actually is “racial reconciliation”???
Yes, so many stupid statements. I feel whoever signed is pretty foolish.
I hereby declare that I had this CD playing in my car just this very day, and I quite like it: ua-cam.com/video/tBssAhyTetY/v-deo.html But that's all I know about Antioch.
Scripture like Numers 33:52 Exodus 17:16 Deuteronomy 25:19 etc are taken seriously the Christians are seen as idolators and Amalekites.
Basically U can make generalizations critiquing everyone except the jews…WHAT?!?!?!
Thank you for covering this, it was very helpful.
As I see the Reformed Tradition more and more split over politics it makes me believe more and more in Amillennialism, that Christ's Kingdom is not of this world, and the organized church must stay out of politics.
That's not amillennialism. That would be Anabaptist premillennialism.
@@CorlosMazda No. I am certainly not an Anabaptist or Premill. And I am definitely Amill. My problem with CN postmill is that it is Pietistic.
Brian Sorbet?
That statement is written to appeal to ignorance. Any Christian who doesn't know what it's about can sign it, and anyone who does know what it's about and doesn't sign it looks like a villain. White and Wilson have turned their wisdom into witchcraft, and should be judged harshly for it.
Witchcraft?
I think he means they’re using their powers for evil, in that they’re using incredibly vague terminology and in a way that is not open and honest and are using this as a means to “other” brothers in Christ who are orthodox theologically but disagree about a certain historical narrative
Let's assume your statement is true, and the declaration contains vague and general truth which "insiders" then would take as proof that Joel Webbon & co are wrong.
Anyone like Joel Webbon should be able to sign his name to it's general truth, and explain how this general truth doesn't apply to his situation. Should be a matter of a few minutes/tweets. If someone can't add his voice to the truth because they don't like who said it or what it might imply, that's immature at best.
Now, if you want to make the case that the declaration contains falsehoods, you would have to bring actual proof.
@@RebekkaMH13 would this have been written if the Tobias/Webbon controversy hadn't happened? Probably not. It's suspicious at best
@@RebekkaMH13 should be a matter of a few minutes for Tobias to apologize and repent for slandering Joel, but James white told everyone to “sit down and shut up and be patient”… and it’s been a month.
Joel is the last one in this situation acting immature.
You can’t sign a petition against “anti semitism” when they don’t define it. It wouldn’t be a stretch to say they’d consider Jon saying that Jews are over represented in the p*rn industry as antisemitic.
53:00 parasites today as well
Pearl clutching abounds.
This sounds like a chick thing.
😅
Maybe this will clear the air and speculations: ua-cam.com/video/sBY9B-xFc9U/v-deo.htmlsi=Y4eVp-19iL-e1dZZ