I don't think Broski needs to second guess his analysis of Jamie's moves being good. The thing is, Jamie is actually really really good... once he gets to 3-4 drinks. The reason he isn't good is because he has to give up so much to become good.
Not lvl 3, he needs lvl 4 to be good. And even then, he has a bunch of mediocre normals outside of sHP, and his tools aren't that amazing in general, mostly being weaker versions of what Cammy has. Then there's the command throw that should literally never be used because it's not worth the risk.
hes completely functional or even "good" at 2 drinks. but 2 is a pain. he should probably just only have 3 levels and spread the moves out a little diff
Funny enough I think the actual biggest problem with Jamie is most of his good stuff is the 0 drink sober stuff. You don’t hear people complain about his drink only tools, but they always cry about Jamie sweep and drive rush HP
There's a character from Virtua Fighter called Shun Di who has a similar gimmick to Jamie. The way they handle drinks in that game is that, while they're easier to get, the opponent can also take them away by hitting you with certain moves. I wonder how Jamie would work with that kind of system. Level 4 Jamie could become more accessible, but also harder to hold on to.
i really like hearing the rationale of high level play. these are things that im, like, distantly aware of. but as a mere casual platinum/sometime diamonds player who drops a high percentage of my combos and routinely forgets if i have meter for a super or not and lose the round when it should have been a checkmate hearing that something as simple as "can i punish a throw attempt?" or "can my character shimmy after a dash?" is so important it just helps me appreciate what you guys are thinking about all day. very cool, thank you broski
I don't know, I think those things that Jamie has are still strong, it's just that literally anything Jamie has that's even halfway good has an asterisk next to it, whether that asterisk is an an incredibly bad hitbox/animation like his DP, or locked behind drinks.
@@shaunmcisaac782 That's what the devs clearly intended, but they forgot to actually make him powerful. As is, Jamie works his ass off to be worse than Akuma and Bison.
I'll send you back to the drawing board, my friend: 1) Jamie's corner carry, provided you land the Momochi combo, takes you corner to corner 2) Jamie is +4 post dash after throw OR can get a drink + meaty 5mk!! 3) The new OD palm routes can net you a drink and start recovering some drive...well that was there before. 4) Jamie's new OD palm routes + the Lv1 Automattock combo really upped his shimmy game, with his damage output can range in the 4.7 to 5.8k (drink dependant and I might be slightly off) for 1 bar + drive dump 5) You do know that Jamie escapes throws with a counter, so yeah Al true but jk yeah we still suck haha
imo initial "5 things" thingy is true and jamie is more of an "exception that proves a rule" type of character. yeah, he's kinda ass initially, but that's exactly because he starts from a huge disadvantage and has to work to get these tools, and do it every. single. round. but once he gets there (lvl3-4 - which makes the exodia thumbnail even more funny, because it's jamie who's actually collecting dem pieces), he definitely becomes very damn strong and scary.
@@grigoryp.7366 Jamie can die before he gets three drinks. And I'm a Manon main. Looking at these traits theorically is misleading because in practice it doesn't always goes to plan.
Just for funsies, applying this criteria to my character Luke: - Good, low meter corner carry: True. If Luke can get a cr.HP or st.HP, then he can do perfect into perfect for big corner carry with just 1 bar drive rush. Also can side switch, but again only if he can get a cr.HP/st.HP. Not as good as corner carry as Ken but very good. Super 2 actually has a decent amount of corner carry to it but it can be kinda hard to combo midscreen after knuckle juggles. - Privileged throw loop: He can't dash after throw but just walk and still shimmy so that should be true. - EX Combo Meta: Not really, Luke's EX moves aren't combo friendly. EX knuckle basically only lets you get one more juggle afterwards. He does do good damage for how little drive meter he can spend but his big bombo routes will require drive rush cancels. - Tech or Die situations: Not really, not to same potential as Aki. Funnily enough, if he had his VS1 from SFV then maybe. - Anti-Throw Tool: Again no. Even in SFV when you had VS2 throw invuln suppressor it would be too slow for a situation like post drive rush mix up iirc. But that's fine since suppressor was more for corner pressure than defense.
Correct me if im wrong but he had all of this in season 1 when people said he was top 1. Then the nerfs came and didnt touch the things you mentioned, but, still he was regarded as weaker and not top tier like before.
@@chaberus2180 The kinda long version: Luke's buttons got nerfed and his damage and some his tools (like SA3 and SA1 to punish). He is good in neutral still but he can win neutral and still lose the game, because his reward is too low. And if he loses neutral it is over for him, because he needs so much drive. And Ed becoming so relevant as well as everyone labbing him showed limitations. Example: Sandblast is probably the worst "fireball" in the game atm (many reasons for this). And Ed being so metarelevant is terrible because Luke vs Ed is season 1 JP vs Guile level of bad. There is nothing in Luke's kit that can open Ed up and no buttons to keep Ed out. Chun is also terrible. Otherwise Akuma and Cammy are also relatively bad for him and they are super meta relevant too. Luke basically has no win con other than playing better, has no favorable or even even mus against the meta chars (maybe just maybe Bison), some of the system mechanics nerfed him hard (like the drive regen change) and some stuff became inconsistent, especially before the mini patch (like Luke randomly started to whiff, because his 2LP pushback was still scaled to his former range and mus like against Gief became borderline unplayable as they could just buffer SPD in blockstring and if you get hit, gg). Also this season on average is stronger than before and we figured out how strong Rashid and Ed actually are, especially Ed who we now know was already top 5 in terms of potential at least, but weird. Akuma and Bison would have been up there with full power Luke to make a comparison, heck Cammy did go even/beat full power Luke and she mostly got stronger this season. I am not saying Luke was not top 1, but he got with the most explicit and implicit nerfs. There is much more talk about, but explaining why Luke fell off is legit an hour of explanations, because there is so much to it.
I'd say the third thing you said (about characters with conditions that make you explode) is so prominent because those characters can get those conditions+oki of of basically everything, including drive parry.
Whilst a lot of the things talked about in the intro apply to Jamie. All but one (invinsible reversal) is locked behind some amount of drink levels. And really that's why Jamie is weak. Playing Jamie is like playing as Akuma but you spend the first half of each round on the phone. It would be interesting to see a tier list where each drink stage is ranked independently. I think with 2 drinks Jamie is comfortably mid tier and beyond that he get's quite strong.
The drink system is why I dropped him when the game launched, imo he should keep one drink between rounds, or maybe he loses two drinks from wherever he is at by the end of the first round
Jamie’s such an interesting case because I think all the tools he has do make him a usable character. It’s more an issue of multi-step characters. Ken, Akuma, Ed, Rashid, etc don’t have to follow any multi-step side missions to get cooking. That’s obviously not a deal breaker, if that first step is easy enough; Bison Psycho Mine is a great example. But characters like Jamie and Manon have 4-5 step gameplans, with Jamie having to redo do these side missions every round. Even AKI, imo, suffers from this issue, having to maintain poison to keep getting damage and corner carry that Top5 contenders get for free
Yup. SF6 is so chaotic that having to give up oki for powerup is a huge downside. Bison and Aki are better off because they can get said condition _and_ maintain pressure, but Jamie, Ryu or Lily have to take considerably higher risks for not that much of an advantage compared to other "power up" options. I'll also add, it's trivially easy to get said conditions at lower ranks. I pretty much started all my Ryu matches doing denjin charge and only got punished 1 out of 10 times. Easy Master rank. These discussions of character power aren't linear to all skill levels. lol
Bisons step also plays into his style while giving him more immediately to use. He gets "extra oki" in a sense. Jamie gains moves but unlike aki and bison he's in neutral while the other 2 are in "advantage"(get rid of the status effect or die, which can lead to rash decisions). Manons medals are the least of her worries from what I recall.
@@Raxyz_0 Absolutely true, even Jamie can hammer out 5HP and get away with war crimes in most ranked groups. But as you fight more and more strong players, they’ll start to exploit these needs that multi-steps have. Just not an issue you need to think about when you can Demon Flip/Jinrai through the problem
@@muckdriver yeah the medals aren't a huge issue because you're basically always trying to get her hitgrab or command grab off where possible, which then end up only rewarding doing it again. And you keep the medals. She never really becomes a better character, or gets increased oki or drive meter rewards- she only really gets capable of more damage off of a fairly linear gameplan
juri springs to mind as the one (imo) well designed step-based character. Deciding to end a combo with stock charge doesn't feel like giving anything up besides a bit more damage, and sometimes you'll even decide to do it when you have full stocks because it's just the preferable option (light fuha stock being a safe ender to a block string for example). She has enough there where you do have to consider your options depending on how you're doing, but you're also not just giving up your entire pressure to get there
Jamie has privilege throw loop, he's +4 dash up after a throw which is plus enough to shimmy a 5f delayed tech, and +4 also means not punishable by backdash.
some of this is cope but I agree with the general idea that jamie is not good until he has drinks in his system whereas characters like akuma start at "4 drinks"
One reason I think akuma's throw loop is so broken is that he can meaty with crouch mp and get big damage out of it. Why crouch medium punch is so good? We already know about the huge damage after linking into hp. The biggest factor to me is that it blocks lows automatically and you don't need to confirm the whiffed throw. Many people lose to wake up jumps because they don't confirm the whiff and just throw out say heavy punch after a shimmy and then their heavy attacks got punished by the jumps. 2MP is such a safe option that you can even Anti Air. Crouch mp as a shimmy tool is so good because you can't dp because he'll block it, you can't crouch medium kick dr because he'll react and drive reversal, you cant jab because you're so spaced out he can whiff punish the second jab and counter any mediums you follow up, perfect parry is risky because of the random timing of the attack and you can't jump because he'll AA after the mp recovers. It's practically a guaranteed meaty in conventional settings and if the akuma is on point.
Going for a tap parry on wakeup against Akuma is made worse by the fact that his walk speed allows him to get the PC throw afterwards for a lot of damage and reset. If he decides to mix it up with command grab you take like 30% off that PC. And if you DO get the PP, your combo gets scaled to the point where even against low health Akuma, it doesn't do too much damage.
I think you're bang on with one addendum. I think "tech or die" is a misleading title and isn't representative of the core strong trait. I think "Non-Burnout Checkmate" is probably more accurate. You basically put your opponent into a scenario with no good options. I think Aki (poison), Bison (bomb), Rashid (tornado) and Kimberly (spray can) are great examples of this. In all of these instances, you are pressured to find the win condition that's not there, or very diffricult to get to. It's almost always a lose lose scenario, and I think that's what makes it strong.
I think it’s important that you don’t include kim cans on this list. getting thrown is undebatably the best option because throw into explosion doesn’t actually do extra damage. She also just does not kill you for it. Max she’s getting off a can setup(which is not attached to you, and in a setup ONLY serves to either continue a blockstring or mixup into a combo, unlike rashid lv2, which is also a WALL that negates fireballs and doesn’t disappear within the throw tech animation) is usually around 4500-5000, which is by no means BAD, but i hesitate to call it a round winner unless she does it with CA and the combo burns you out. It is very good, yes, but she doesn’t get it from any random hit.
Jamie has Drive Optimization off OD Command Throw (Drink 3), Lvl 1, and Lvl3; corner carry with Drink 4 Palm or OD Palm Cancel into lvl 2, not sure about the throw loops but has some drink shenanigans in the corner with forward throw; DR Tick Throw Hard Counter (Drink 1); and if you consider condition special his drinks, then he has that too lol (IM HUFFING COPIUM)
Jamie has every important tool once he gets drinks (BIG asterisk obviously), but the biggest problem is that he has bad examples of most of those tools. He has a DP, but it's arguably the worst DP. He has a Divekick, but it's arguably the worst Divekick. He has a command grab, but it's arguably the weakest command grab. He has a plus on block medium, but it's got 8 frames of startup and isn't special cancellable. None of them are *bad*, but they're still weaker examples than those other characters just have from the start of the round.
Broski, you are the best, most intelligent, coolest streamer who explains things better than everyone else. Natural born teacher. No BS self-promotion or gimmicks. Just infinitely cool explainer of the game.
Great vid! As someone who's played a lot of Juri I've often struggled to understand why she isn't argued as top 1/3/5 often. This vid explains it nicely. She has alright corner carry, and she does have the instant Jump Medium Punch Dive Kick which hard counters throws, but she lacks the other key points. Very informative!
I think the ability to easily confirm into a sideswitch from lights with low meter requirements and good oki, is one of the most privileged things a character can have. The ability to reverse a corner situation without needing to commit as heavily is key. Ken and Cammy off the top of my head spend very little to side swap (Ken's got Dragonlash, Cammy's got Ex Spiral Arrow) and can get good oki and damage to boot to immediately capitalize.
Excellent video. I was surprised throw loop was omitted from your original draft. Also, Guile does not have a (meterless) throw loop without drive rush. Honestly I was kind of expecting fireball to be on the list somewhere. When I started playing the game at launch with manon I felt like I was missing too many of these tools and not really playing the same sf6 as everyone else.
Not a full list, but one attribute I thought of is characters that can go for safe/mostly safe oki every time. Good projectile oki and/or safe jumps + not needing to worry about install mechanics or other “minigames” that take away from the ability to use strong combos and apply constant pressure.
I think the bonus feature is DR speed followed by having a command run. Essentially any bit of kit that can cheaply force a guess (jinrai) is icing on the cake.
3:38 what a lot of people need to hear. Like I can do corner to corner with Manon, with 5 drive gauges and level 2, but how often am I really gonna do that lol. A lot of the terry defense force, also uses "corner carry" for reasons why he can't be bad, but I think most characters with 3 drive gauges can do half-screen or more.
7:15 Only characters with 23F backdashes can punish Juri here (who is at +3). Lily (24F) is +3. Chun, Manon, Marisa, Rashid and Zangief (25F backdashes) are only +2. Juri is +3. Total throw frames = 30F, meaning her meaty throw is only 27F. 27-23 = 4F punish.
idk i know you said 5 tools but to me it sounds like the tools to be a top tier are -being able to manage gauge more efficiently than your opponents -being able to force skewed risk-reward situations/having meterless anti-rps options
i *really* want sf4 style crouch teching back. imo it eliminates the throw loop problem, but beacause of meaties it still has the strike/throw and OS minigames
“Throws are terrifying in this game” hits extra hard as a Marisa main whose wakeup armor options all result in punish counter damage + down 3 drive bars if they throw 😢
Jamie has the opposite of the point of aggressively skewed rsik reward from setplay. getting a corner knockdown with 3+ drinks he can loop safejump into 50/50s or fake safejump mixups that all loop into the same situation with solid damage, but no one options is so explosive you have to overly respect it like aki and bison.
i watched a video earlier today about tekken throw breaks, and personally i dont know anything about tekken personally so when i heard that some throw breaks change the state of neutral or give advantage/disadvantage to the character throwing i found that to be extremely cool and so mufh more interesting given the unique animations when compared to SF6!
I would argue that Jamie has 2 out of 5 of these traits. He also has a very privileged throw loop, he gets to choose between walk up throw loop and dash throw loop. And with walkup throw loop shimmying is trivial, you are even able to easily get buttons to whiff. And it also allows going for a meaty command grab. He doesn't get a way to set up meaty + frames tho. And while his corner carry is average at best, his Oki is actually top tier. Who else has double dash into +2 point blank after a midscreen ex dp?
As a low-rated Master player, I never understood pros' tier lists. This is the first video that explained it properly to me why, for example, Cammy is considered so high-tier in this game.
I'm a Guile main, let's test: First list: EX reversal: ✅ Command grab: ❌ Crouch medium kick into drive rush: ❌ Ways to change your jump trajectory: ❌ Plus on block mediums: ❌ Second list: Low (no) resource corner carry/side switch: ❌ Blessed throw loop: ❌ EX move combo routes: ❌ Tech or die: ✅ (highly dependent on having a lot of resources available, double level 2 corner combos removed) Punish on drive rush tick throw: ❌ 1/5 on each list or 2/10 overall, arguable 1/10. Guile trash tier confirmed.
I think the issue is the game is hellbent on making characters unique to a fault. Jamie drinks, manon medals, Honda has a thousand hand stock, ryu denjin, lily windstock etc etc. some characters are just busted out the gate as other commenters have said but lots of them need to do things first before they can be stronger like Jamie’s drinks
I would make a point that Jamie having the option you suggested makes sense, because he is top tier with the exception that its only some of the time. Like imagine if Jamie started with 4 drinks
How did you completely forget about fireballs? Notably, while Jamie has in theory a lot of strong tools, some he only has at certain drink levels but he also doesn"t have a fireball. Almost every top tier character at least have a decent fireball or they have very strong tools to get around them (Cammie, Blanka). Gief is kinda the only exception since the buffs because his close range mix up reward is just completely bonkers. And Bison well idk what's going on with Bison, he has at least better tools than Jamie but on paper the character still shouldn't even be that good. It's probably like you said, he deals bonkers damage and can really threaten the opponent with a 80% combo on shimmy that actually makes him so good (in combination with some of the other things of course)
I know it was kinda mentioned in the video in the throw loop section, but I fall for too many shimmys in diferent scenarios from Cammy and Akuma's walk speed, they fcking cover many more things instead of just "dash - walk back"
This is all really good. I would just point out that Juri can probably walk back if you set the dummy to actually delay tech. You had them throwing on wakeup so it's ~5-8(?) frames earlier than a delay tech would be. I believe she can shimmy a real delay tech. This is still worse than the privileged throw loops though.
The fact that not every character has a throw loop is news to me (I am constantly getting thrown as I cannot tech). But hey I guess I know now a throw loop isn't getting thrown over and over again?
Love your SF6 videos, very helpful! Just a heads up--the vocal audio is a little crunchy and harsh on the ears in this one, maybe something's different in your processing chain. Buff Jamie =)
Unfortunately Jamie can do all of these I think unless the dash up throw loop things, maybe not like the best of them but pretty good. He just needs to be drink 3/4 to do it. Momochi combo for corner carry, palm and bakkai are good too. At drink 4 we can get 3700 meterless, 7242 with CA in the corner by baiting throw whiffs You already talked about the instant air dive kick, he can get safe jumps, corner carry or up to 50% with CA off of the conversion.
Streamer told me not to sub in the beginning, then told me to sub at the end. Instructions unclear, unsubbed from Sajam.
Loldafuq
Superbunnyhop will pay
@@Vanity0666 beat me to it dangit xDDD
sajam mentioned
top tier thumbnail
So true, too, another Akuma player cracked another tournament and it's like...can we just please nerf the demon man. Please?
@@ArlanKels idk he might be the best but not quite so busted that he wins everything
👌
No doubt epic
@@ArlanKelsCan you look at Cammy win rate ?
All I heard was Jamie is strong and this justified my switch from Akuma to Jamie
"The top player is here!"
The reverse shuckle
Put down the pipe son
I don't think Broski needs to second guess his analysis of Jamie's moves being good. The thing is, Jamie is actually really really good... once he gets to 3-4 drinks. The reason he isn't good is because he has to give up so much to become good.
Not lvl 3, he needs lvl 4 to be good. And even then, he has a bunch of mediocre normals outside of sHP, and his tools aren't that amazing in general, mostly being weaker versions of what Cammy has. Then there's the command throw that should literally never be used because it's not worth the risk.
hes completely functional or even "good" at 2 drinks. but 2 is a pain. he should probably just only have 3 levels and spread the moves out a little diff
Funny enough I think the actual biggest problem with Jamie is most of his good stuff is the 0 drink sober stuff. You don’t hear people complain about his drink only tools, but they always cry about Jamie sweep and drive rush HP
Yeah, if he has 4 drink in round start he will be Yun
There's a character from Virtua Fighter called Shun Di who has a similar gimmick to Jamie. The way they handle drinks in that game is that, while they're easier to get, the opponent can also take them away by hitting you with certain moves. I wonder how Jamie would work with that kind of system. Level 4 Jamie could become more accessible, but also harder to hold on to.
0:54 I have to agree with chatter: "doesn't yap in training mode" is OP.
Can confirm, I use Akuma in training mode :/
i have to set them to shimmy a little bit or i will enrage
i really like hearing the rationale of high level play. these are things that im, like, distantly aware of. but as a mere casual platinum/sometime diamonds player who drops a high percentage of my combos and routinely forgets if i have meter for a super or not and lose the round when it should have been a checkmate hearing that something as simple as "can i punish a throw attempt?" or "can my character shimmy after a dash?" is so important it just helps me appreciate what you guys are thinking about all day. very cool, thank you broski
Half expected the video to end with "Anyway F*** Jamie and I'll see you in the next video"
What makes a character strong in SF6
Step 1: Be Akuma
Bet you would lose plenty playing Akuma
@@Runk3lsmcdougaldosent make ankuma not strong
@@user-tzzglsstle585e38 right, so it's not this pay to win op character everyone makes it out to be right now
But low helf
@@Runk3lsmcdougal That still wouldn't make Akuma bad, it would make me bad.
Also I play Ed so your comment is irrelevant.
I don't know, I think those things that Jamie has are still strong, it's just that literally anything Jamie has that's even halfway good has an asterisk next to it, whether that asterisk is an an incredibly bad hitbox/animation like his DP, or locked behind drinks.
Or giving up oki once or twice for drinks
Much like Manon's medals, he needs to work for it or he'd be infuriating and thrown controller worthy.
@@shaunmcisaac782 That's what the devs clearly intended, but they forgot to actually make him powerful. As is, Jamie works his ass off to be worse than Akuma and Bison.
Having to win 3-4 interactions to unlock your best tools kinda sucks when the rest of the cast can 2-touch you with less investment
As a Jamie Main, hearing you list the 5 things needed at the beginning made me laugh😂
I'll send you back to the drawing board, my friend:
1) Jamie's corner carry, provided you land the Momochi combo, takes you corner to corner
2) Jamie is +4 post dash after throw OR can get a drink + meaty 5mk!!
3) The new OD palm routes can net you a drink and start recovering some drive...well that was there before.
4) Jamie's new OD palm routes + the Lv1 Automattock combo really upped his shimmy game, with his damage output can range in the 4.7 to 5.8k (drink dependant and I might be slightly off) for 1 bar + drive dump
5) You do know that Jamie escapes throws with a counter, so yeah
Al true but jk yeah we still suck haha
I get so many of your videos in recommended I legit thought I was already subscribed.
same
Was literally about to comment those top tier traits all belong to jamie. Then you broke my heart lol
imo initial "5 things" thingy is true and jamie is more of an "exception that proves a rule" type of character. yeah, he's kinda ass initially, but that's exactly because he starts from a huge disadvantage and has to work to get these tools, and do it every. single. round. but once he gets there (lvl3-4 - which makes the exodia thumbnail even more funny, because it's jamie who's actually collecting dem pieces), he definitely becomes very damn strong and scary.
@@grigoryp.7366 Jamie can die before he gets three drinks. And I'm a Manon main. Looking at these traits theorically is misleading because in practice it doesn't always goes to plan.
Rashid at JUST A tier is wild imo
And Ed at S. Lol
@@corvoyami3192Ed Is top tier for sure
@@atbtrendy9932 but not Top 1
@@mcrmy988He's been winning a lot and he's fairly consistent.
@@mcrmy988 yeah and i think he's actually the weakest top tier, but still top
Just for funsies, applying this criteria to my character Luke:
- Good, low meter corner carry: True. If Luke can get a cr.HP or st.HP, then he can do perfect into perfect for big corner carry with just 1 bar drive rush. Also can side switch, but again only if he can get a cr.HP/st.HP. Not as good as corner carry as Ken but very good. Super 2 actually has a decent amount of corner carry to it but it can be kinda hard to combo midscreen after knuckle juggles.
- Privileged throw loop: He can't dash after throw but just walk and still shimmy so that should be true.
- EX Combo Meta: Not really, Luke's EX moves aren't combo friendly. EX knuckle basically only lets you get one more juggle afterwards. He does do good damage for how little drive meter he can spend but his big bombo routes will require drive rush cancels.
- Tech or Die situations: Not really, not to same potential as Aki. Funnily enough, if he had his VS1 from SFV then maybe.
- Anti-Throw Tool: Again no. Even in SFV when you had VS2 throw invuln suppressor it would be too slow for a situation like post drive rush mix up iirc. But that's fine since suppressor was more for corner pressure than defense.
Correct me if im wrong but he had all of this in season 1 when people said he was top 1. Then the nerfs came and didnt touch the things you mentioned, but, still he was regarded as weaker and not top tier like before.
@@chaberus2180
The kinda long version:
Luke's buttons got nerfed and his damage and some his tools (like SA3 and SA1 to punish).
He is good in neutral still but he can win neutral and still lose the game, because his reward is too low.
And if he loses neutral it is over for him, because he needs so much drive.
And Ed becoming so relevant as well as everyone labbing him showed limitations.
Example:
Sandblast is probably the worst "fireball" in the game atm (many reasons for this).
And Ed being so metarelevant is terrible because Luke vs Ed is season 1 JP vs Guile level of bad.
There is nothing in Luke's kit that can open Ed up and no buttons to keep Ed out.
Chun is also terrible.
Otherwise Akuma and Cammy are also relatively bad for him and they are super meta relevant too.
Luke basically has no win con other than playing better, has no favorable or even even mus against the meta chars (maybe just maybe Bison), some of the system mechanics nerfed him hard (like the drive regen change) and some stuff became inconsistent, especially before the mini patch (like Luke randomly started to whiff, because his 2LP pushback was still scaled to his former range and mus like against Gief became borderline unplayable as they could just buffer SPD in blockstring and if you get hit, gg).
Also this season on average is stronger than before and we figured out how strong Rashid and Ed actually are, especially Ed who we now know was already top 5 in terms of potential at least, but weird.
Akuma and Bison would have been up there with full power Luke to make a comparison, heck Cammy did go even/beat full power Luke and she mostly got stronger this season.
I am not saying Luke was not top 1, but he got with the most explicit and implicit nerfs.
There is much more talk about, but explaining why Luke fell off is legit an hour of explanations, because there is so much to it.
I'd say the third thing you said (about characters with conditions that make you explode) is so prominent because those characters can get those conditions+oki of of basically everything, including drive parry.
Whilst a lot of the things talked about in the intro apply to Jamie. All but one (invinsible reversal) is locked behind some amount of drink levels. And really that's why Jamie is weak. Playing Jamie is like playing as Akuma but you spend the first half of each round on the phone. It would be interesting to see a tier list where each drink stage is ranked independently. I think with 2 drinks Jamie is comfortably mid tier and beyond that he get's quite strong.
"Playing as Akuma but you spend the first half of each round on the phone" is my new favorite description of Jamie
The drink system is why I dropped him when the game launched, imo he should keep one drink between rounds, or maybe he loses two drinks from wherever he is at by the end of the first round
Jamie’s such an interesting case because I think all the tools he has do make him a usable character. It’s more an issue of multi-step characters. Ken, Akuma, Ed, Rashid, etc don’t have to follow any multi-step side missions to get cooking. That’s obviously not a deal breaker, if that first step is easy enough; Bison Psycho Mine is a great example. But characters like Jamie and Manon have 4-5 step gameplans, with Jamie having to redo do these side missions every round. Even AKI, imo, suffers from this issue, having to maintain poison to keep getting damage and corner carry that Top5 contenders get for free
Yup. SF6 is so chaotic that having to give up oki for powerup is a huge downside. Bison and Aki are better off because they can get said condition _and_ maintain pressure, but Jamie, Ryu or Lily have to take considerably higher risks for not that much of an advantage compared to other "power up" options.
I'll also add, it's trivially easy to get said conditions at lower ranks. I pretty much started all my Ryu matches doing denjin charge and only got punished 1 out of 10 times. Easy Master rank. These discussions of character power aren't linear to all skill levels. lol
Bisons step also plays into his style while giving him more immediately to use. He gets "extra oki" in a sense. Jamie gains moves but unlike aki and bison he's in neutral while the other 2 are in "advantage"(get rid of the status effect or die, which can lead to rash decisions).
Manons medals are the least of her worries from what I recall.
@@Raxyz_0 Absolutely true, even Jamie can hammer out 5HP and get away with war crimes in most ranked groups. But as you fight more and more strong players, they’ll start to exploit these needs that multi-steps have. Just not an issue you need to think about when you can Demon Flip/Jinrai through the problem
@@muckdriver yeah the medals aren't a huge issue because you're basically always trying to get her hitgrab or command grab off where possible, which then end up only rewarding doing it again. And you keep the medals. She never really becomes a better character, or gets increased oki or drive meter rewards- she only really gets capable of more damage off of a fairly linear gameplan
juri springs to mind as the one (imo) well designed step-based character. Deciding to end a combo with stock charge doesn't feel like giving anything up besides a bit more damage, and sometimes you'll even decide to do it when you have full stocks because it's just the preferable option (light fuha stock being a safe ender to a block string for example). She has enough there where you do have to consider your options depending on how you're doing, but you're also not just giving up your entire pressure to get there
1:20 THATS WHY HES THE TOP PLAYER LETS GOOOO!!! I mained him from day one and I haven’t regretted it yet.
Jamie has privilege throw loop, he's +4 dash up after a throw which is plus enough to shimmy a 5f delayed tech, and +4 also means not punishable by backdash.
I love the the plot twist at 1:25 😮😮😮
This is going to take my Guile downplaying to a whole new level. Thank you, Broski.
Jamie:
DP: no vertical range
CG: no range + 3 drinks
CMK: small range
Divekick: awful + needs a drink
+ medium: okayish
some of this is cope but I agree with the general idea that jamie is not good until he has drinks in his system whereas characters like akuma start at "4 drinks"
when they 3-0 me, i think
Me crying as a Jamie main
- biped
- featherless
Jamie is top tier
Broski, you make good content brother.
I thought I was used to Broski's insane thumbnail game, but even I was unprepared for Goukodia.
One reason I think akuma's throw loop is so broken is that he can meaty with crouch mp and get big damage out of it.
Why crouch medium punch is so good? We already know about the huge damage after linking into hp. The biggest factor to me is that it blocks lows automatically and you don't need to confirm the whiffed throw. Many people lose to wake up jumps because they don't confirm the whiff and just throw out say heavy punch after a shimmy and then their heavy attacks got punished by the jumps. 2MP is such a safe option that you can even Anti Air.
Crouch mp as a shimmy tool is so good because you can't dp because he'll block it, you can't crouch medium kick dr because he'll react and drive reversal, you cant jab because you're so spaced out he can whiff punish the second jab and counter any mediums you follow up, perfect parry is risky because of the random timing of the attack and you can't jump because he'll AA after the mp recovers. It's practically a guaranteed meaty in conventional settings and if the akuma is on point.
Going for a tap parry on wakeup against Akuma is made worse by the fact that his walk speed allows him to get the PC throw afterwards for a lot of damage and reset. If he decides to mix it up with command grab you take like 30% off that PC. And if you DO get the PP, your combo gets scaled to the point where even against low health Akuma, it doesn't do too much damage.
I think you're bang on with one addendum. I think "tech or die" is a misleading title and isn't representative of the core strong trait.
I think "Non-Burnout Checkmate" is probably more accurate. You basically put your opponent into a scenario with no good options. I think Aki (poison), Bison (bomb), Rashid (tornado) and Kimberly (spray can) are great examples of this. In all of these instances, you are pressured to find the win condition that's not there, or very diffricult to get to. It's almost always a lose lose scenario, and I think that's what makes it strong.
I think it’s important that you don’t include kim cans on this list. getting thrown is undebatably the best option because throw into explosion doesn’t actually do extra damage. She also just does not kill you for it. Max she’s getting off a can setup(which is not attached to you, and in a setup ONLY serves to either continue a blockstring or mixup into a combo, unlike rashid lv2, which is also a WALL that negates fireballs and doesn’t disappear within the throw tech animation) is usually around 4500-5000, which is by no means BAD, but i hesitate to call it a round winner unless she does it with CA and the combo burns you out. It is very good, yes, but she doesn’t get it from any random hit.
Hell of a thumbail if I ever seen one and I take pride on mine.
Jamie has Drive Optimization off OD Command Throw (Drink 3), Lvl 1, and Lvl3; corner carry with Drink 4 Palm or OD Palm Cancel into lvl 2, not sure about the throw loops but has some drink shenanigans in the corner with forward throw; DR Tick Throw Hard Counter (Drink 1); and if you consider condition special his drinks, then he has that too lol (IM HUFFING COPIUM)
I love that out of BOTH your lists, Marisa only has a command grab going for her :)
Jamie has every important tool once he gets drinks (BIG asterisk obviously), but the biggest problem is that he has bad examples of most of those tools.
He has a DP, but it's arguably the worst DP. He has a Divekick, but it's arguably the worst Divekick. He has a command grab, but it's arguably the weakest command grab. He has a plus on block medium, but it's got 8 frames of startup and isn't special cancellable. None of them are *bad*, but they're still weaker examples than those other characters just have from the start of the round.
Absolutely agree about EX launchers being strong, Chun Li benefits a lot from it
I think it's time for a week's vacation with Jamie so he can in-depth talk smack about the poor creature.
I think it's fair to say 0 and 4 drinks Jamie are different characters
I pray they make manon overhead airborne frame 1 to counter throws.
Every time someone makes a video like this people bring up that Jaime has all the tools people say is strong lol.
Broski, you are the best, most intelligent, coolest streamer who explains things better than everyone else. Natural born teacher. No BS self-promotion or gimmicks. Just infinitely cool explainer of the game.
Great vid! As someone who's played a lot of Juri I've often struggled to understand why she isn't argued as top 1/3/5 often. This vid explains it nicely. She has alright corner carry, and she does have the instant Jump Medium Punch Dive Kick which hard counters throws, but she lacks the other key points. Very informative!
This thumbnail is amazing and i love it.
Don't feel bad, Jamie is really really good
"Hold this L."
I think no 1 should be called “getting the opponent to the corner”, so as to include side switching as well as corner carry.
I think the ability to easily confirm into a sideswitch from lights with low meter requirements and good oki, is one of the most privileged things a character can have. The ability to reverse a corner situation without needing to commit as heavily is key.
Ken and Cammy off the top of my head spend very little to side swap (Ken's got Dragonlash, Cammy's got Ex Spiral Arrow) and can get good oki and damage to boot to immediately capitalize.
the jamie slander hurts. although its true :(
I believe DJ needs to walk in the throw-loop to be able to shimmy. If you dash, you're committed to block/jab/grab just like Terry.
Excellent video. I was surprised throw loop was omitted from your original draft. Also, Guile does not have a (meterless) throw loop without drive rush.
Honestly I was kind of expecting fireball to be on the list somewhere. When I started playing the game at launch with manon I felt like I was missing too many of these tools and not really playing the same sf6 as everyone else.
Not a full list, but one attribute I thought of is characters that can go for safe/mostly safe oki every time. Good projectile oki and/or safe jumps + not needing to worry about install mechanics or other “minigames” that take away from the ability to use strong combos and apply constant pressure.
That Cammy example was exactly Xiaohai was doing during EWC, and the majority of times, it worked, lol
I think the bonus feature is DR speed followed by having a command run. Essentially any bit of kit that can cheaply force a guess (jinrai) is icing on the cake.
3:38 what a lot of people need to hear. Like I can do corner to corner with Manon, with 5 drive gauges and level 2, but how often am I really gonna do that lol. A lot of the terry defense force, also uses "corner carry" for reasons why he can't be bad, but I think most characters with 3 drive gauges can do half-screen or more.
Broski: "Don't subscribe."
Me: "you're not my father!" *Subscribes* *anyways*
It's fascinating to me that world class players can make tier lists that are basically incomprehensible to other top level players.
'In Street Fighter 6 Season 2, what makes someone a top tier?'
7:15
Only characters with 23F backdashes can punish Juri here (who is at +3).
Lily (24F) is +3. Chun, Manon, Marisa, Rashid and Zangief (25F backdashes) are only +2.
Juri is +3. Total throw frames = 30F, meaning her meaty throw is only 27F. 27-23 = 4F punish.
Thanks for this video, lots of interesting nuances
idk i know you said 5 tools but to me it sounds like the tools to be a top tier are
-being able to manage gauge more efficiently than your opponents
-being able to force skewed risk-reward situations/having meterless anti-rps options
i *really* want sf4 style crouch teching back. imo it eliminates the throw loop problem, but beacause of meaties it still has the strike/throw and OS minigames
“Throws are terrifying in this game” hits extra hard as a Marisa main whose wakeup armor options all result in punish counter damage + down 3 drive bars if they throw 😢
You saying to not sub got me to sub. I was going to unsub then resub but i realized i wasnt subbed in the first place, fixed that issue
Jamie has the opposite of the point of aggressively skewed rsik reward from setplay. getting a corner knockdown with 3+ drinks he can loop safejump into 50/50s or fake safejump mixups that all loop into the same situation with solid damage, but no one options is so explosive you have to overly respect it like aki and bison.
i watched a video earlier today about tekken throw breaks, and personally i dont know anything about tekken personally so when i heard that some throw breaks change the state of neutral or give advantage/disadvantage to the character throwing i found that to be extremely cool and so mufh more interesting given the unique animations when compared to SF6!
i learn a lot with your videos broski 😊
I can't wait for S3 to be Yun, Yang, Gen, and Fei Long, bringing some much-needed Jamie nerfs with them
Squarepheus living rent free in Broski's head
Not even gonna lie, the reverse psychology worked… Well played sir 🫡
I would argue that Jamie has 2 out of 5 of these traits. He also has a very privileged throw loop, he gets to choose between walk up throw loop and dash throw loop. And with walkup throw loop shimmying is trivial, you are even able to easily get buttons to whiff. And it also allows going for a meaty command grab.
He doesn't get a way to set up meaty + frames tho.
And while his corner carry is average at best, his Oki is actually top tier. Who else has double dash into +2 point blank after a midscreen ex dp?
As a low-rated Master player, I never understood pros' tier lists. This is the first video that explained it properly to me why, for example, Cammy is considered so high-tier in this game.
Jaime top tier confirmed. We'll be calling him broken when snake eyez wins a tourney with him.
I'm a Guile main, let's test:
First list:
EX reversal: ✅
Command grab: ❌
Crouch medium kick into drive rush: ❌
Ways to change your jump trajectory: ❌
Plus on block mediums: ❌
Second list:
Low (no) resource corner carry/side switch: ❌
Blessed throw loop: ❌
EX move combo routes: ❌
Tech or die: ✅ (highly dependent on having a lot of resources available, double level 2 corner combos removed)
Punish on drive rush tick throw: ❌
1/5 on each list or 2/10 overall, arguable 1/10. Guile trash tier confirmed.
Interesting. Time to buff Dragunov
I think the issue is the game is hellbent on making characters unique to a fault. Jamie drinks, manon medals, Honda has a thousand hand stock, ryu denjin, lily windstock etc etc. some characters are just busted out the gate as other commenters have said but lots of them need to do things first before they can be stronger like Jamie’s drinks
I didn’t even know I wasn’t subbed, that unironically got my attention
like your chat pointed out, jamie needs a drink to do that last 1
You should make a tier list from only these traits and see how different it would be ;)
I would make a point that Jamie having the option you suggested makes sense, because he is top tier with the exception that its only some of the time. Like imagine if Jamie started with 4 drinks
Don't tell me what to do *subscribes
How did you completely forget about fireballs? Notably, while Jamie has in theory a lot of strong tools, some he only has at certain drink levels but he also doesn"t have a fireball. Almost every top tier character at least have a decent fireball or they have very strong tools to get around them (Cammie, Blanka). Gief is kinda the only exception since the buffs because his close range mix up reward is just completely bonkers. And Bison well idk what's going on with Bison, he has at least better tools than Jamie but on paper the character still shouldn't even be that good. It's probably like you said, he deals bonkers damage and can really threaten the opponent with a 80% combo on shimmy that actually makes him so good (in combination with some of the other things of course)
Thoughtful list. Nuance and intelligent.
You don't tell me what not to do!
SUBBED
God tier thumbnail for my dumbass that just started a yugioh nostalgia trip lol
I know it was kinda mentioned in the video in the throw loop section, but I fall for too many shimmys in diferent scenarios from Cammy and Akuma's walk speed, they fcking cover many more things instead of just "dash - walk back"
This is all really good. I would just point out that Juri can probably walk back if you set the dummy to actually delay tech. You had them throwing on wakeup so it's ~5-8(?) frames earlier than a delay tech would be. I believe she can shimmy a real delay tech. This is still worse than the privileged throw loops though.
Jamie can counter throw just like Cammy 😳
16:59 jump cancel works with all specials with up input
psychology got me
The fact that not every character has a throw loop is news to me (I am constantly getting thrown as I cannot tech). But hey I guess I know now a throw loop isn't getting thrown over and over again?
Broski completely undoes his reverse psychology attempt at the end of the vid... /facepalm
Love your SF6 videos, very helpful! Just a heads up--the vocal audio is a little crunchy and harsh on the ears in this one, maybe something's different in your processing chain. Buff Jamie =)
Unfortunately Jamie can do all of these I think unless the dash up throw loop things, maybe not like the best of them but pretty good. He just needs to be drink 3/4 to do it.
Momochi combo for corner carry, palm and bakkai are good too.
At drink 4 we can get 3700 meterless, 7242 with CA in the corner by baiting throw whiffs
You already talked about the instant air dive kick, he can get safe jumps, corner carry or up to 50% with CA off of the conversion.
Remember you can dragonlash to sideswitch and then use od.tatsu to go even further back into the corner
2:08 You can’t stop me from liking the video and commenting for engagement!
lmao at before he even starts the list xSUAV... accurately calls out that literally everything on the list will apply to Jamie
Minus points for not including the Spider lore Mr Broski
Man, imagine telling people at launch that after 1 season Luke and Lily would be at the same tier.
To be fair the first 5 things you mentioned are really good to have. Is just Jamie has to give Oki in a very fast pace game 😂
dont worry broski, my dad works at capcom and he told me they are gonna make jamie top 1 by deleting him and adding yun back
All throw loops are equal but some are more equal than others.
If Jamie had all those things at round start he would be top 1. The thing holding Jamie back is the exact thing that his character is built around.