This is actually the most important question of all. Its answer should lay a groundwork of what can be done in the fields of education and information for parents so children do not become religious just because their parents are, but instead using the rational part of their brain to make a thoughtful decision on whether or not blind belief in something that they cannot observe or verify is the right thing to do.
Beautifully written and I think most people working in science will agree, you are actually portraying the circumstances that drives scientists in all areas to search and learn. It is the reason I call myself an agnostic, I find it to be the most honest position one can have, I don't pretend to know what is out side the burning candle light. It is true that science is limited but that is in no way a proof of a god AND less than nothing about who this god is.
My fellow religious folk, please don't attempt to rebuke false accusations of us with even more accusations. It just gives them more reasons to hate and harbor bitterness towards us. Remember, blessed are the persecuted but we won't be blessed if we do the persecuting. Even if they misrepresent us with false information and try to spread it around the net, do not try to defend your beliefs. Just acknowledge their beliefs and simply live out your own. If they hit your cheek let them hit the other
@eydaimon I think you missed the point of mine. You say "if the message is so important why are they charging for it?". I say "the message is important enough to pay $12.95 for it." The man put time and effort into crafting the book. Theres no reason he shouldnt be able to charge whatever he wishes and frankly $12.95 hardly breaks the bank for the majority of americans. Also a portion of the proceeds goes to a foundation i support.
I'm relieved that you responded the way you did - thanks! Sometimes, you get a thought provoking response and sometimes people go off the rails and hurl insults. I am thinking about "more education=more brainwashing". I'll have to look into that. You don't have to answer this, but your inquisition comment made me wonder... let's see, what's a clever way of asking? Do you know what ARC means? Glad you took the time to answer and take care~
Ok I'm obviously going to have to get the ball rolling on this rather than wait for you to do it. So I'm going to ask a fairly simple question and see where we go from there- What reason do you have to believe in the existence of God? Is it personal revelation, or is it more to do with your upbringing? I'm curious. Please don't dismiss my question, if I am the kind of atheist you seem to think I am then I will reveal myself as such and you shouldn't have anything to worry about, right?
For wanting every person in the world to read this book, the price tag for the mere 144 pages is pretty steep (currently $12.95). You could have charged half and still donated a good portion.
Yes, an audio version has been recorded but has yet to be released. It won't be available as a physical CD, but it will be available for download on Audible, iTunes, and Amazon starting in about a month. We'll be sure to update this thread as soon as it's available. Thanks!
I think Stephen Fry has the best mindset of anyone, he says that even if there is a god out there, we must never fully commit to the idea that there is a heaven, and we should make the most of every moment of our life now, because if we die and there is nothing after this life, atleast we would have had a crammed first life.
Dr Thompson, your work is fascinating and important! Great job! I wish you spoke with more gusto to share your findings. You should spend more time on front of a camera practicing your delivery IMO. I've shared some of your lectures with intelligent people and they complain how dry you sound. Sorry to be so critical, but I just really think you have so many important things to share and we should figure out how to best communicate them. 😃
how come he created us and knows nothing about us??? how come he creates us and forget about us...IMPOSSIBLE I love God cuz he created me and looks after me in every moment and he gave me many blessings and without his mercy I shall not live for a moment
How much clearer could the question be? What reason do you have to hold the beliefs that you have? No ambiguity, just straight-up, why do you believe what you believe? It couldn't be more clear. And you're right, it isn't deep thinking. It's the simplest thought possible, but it seems beyond you to accept such a simple premise. You should not leap to any beliefs if they have not been shown to be true. Easy.
The 'we believe' of religion and the 'we believe' of science are radically different. For religion, it means adhering a priori to a set of propositions about the universe, creation, human origins, etc., because you've been told, and agree, that these propositions are divinely revealed Truth. For science, it means adhering to a method of finding things out - of determining whether propositions about the world are true or not. You fool yourself if you think the two 'we believes' are symmetrical.
:-) Those are not nonsense, but a suggestion that you yourself employ a rational approach and critical thinking that you, as an atheist, are so proud of and start question the things that you've always taken for granted. Anyway, state your question ...
There's so many good books by authors like Harris, Dawkins and the like. I would love to read this one too, I'll probably buy it, but if only I had the time to read more than one book per year. It's quite frustrating.
@MrFareddy @Nonsensei436 Yes, but your equation is just the starting point. The book examines the cognitive mechanisms that allow man to actually believe in god(s) and have faith in god(s). For example, what is it about the human mind that allows people to "talk" to god(s) or "experience" god(s) or to believe in a soul that's detached from the body? The easiest way to put it is that Dr. Thomson explains "how" the mind tricks people into belief -- not just the "why" of belief.
@soundofgeek yes, it'll be available electronically starting June 1, so please look for it then on Amazon or your eSeller of choice. Many thanks for your interest!
Interestingly, most people want to believe in God when they are at 30,000 ft and they discover they may well be about to die. Or when they discover a relative or a loved one may be about to die. I don't find many parents who would not accept prayer etc in that situation.
Arguing with theists may strengthen their faith in the short term, but it exposes the flaws in their arguments to bystanders and when they do arrive at a junction in their life when they could rethink their stance on Yawah's existence they will remember some of your arguments.
your absolutely right. Science is fact or atleast the search for the truth, faith is a fairytale. Belief in god is like believing in santa claus, easter bunny, or the tooth fairy. Praying to god is a way that people try and cope with their situations. Along with their fear of where their soul will go after death.
It is the rational choice to assert non-being beyond the empirical realm until there is evidence for it. And by "evidence" one does not mean the mere say-so of self-appointed "prophets".
Religion may well be irrational and bonkers at times, the thing is religion was often at its conception trying real hard simply to explain 'universal consciousness' or God consciousness if you prefer. There is another place where open minded intelligent minds reside in between religion or science, and that place will one day provide the thread that knits it all together. All atoms are from the same source, the glue that links them all is yet to be discovered in current science.
The point of this is that as humans, we CAN'T answer all of the questions to our existence, no matter how hard we try. If you think that we can, then you're probably very arrogant and extremely wrong. I'm not saying we shouldn't try, but 5 seconds in hell would be too much for any human to handle, and if you don't believe me, then you may just end up finding out for yourself.
"but just calling someone a stupid pussy is the complete opposite of anything constructive" What chance do we have of having a "constructive debate" ? I'd say, similar to that of the probability of existing of Flying Spaghetti Monster? (I assume that Atheists calculated that right, however, that makes the assumption unreliable...)
Although I partially agree with your statement, and there are many "Christians" out there who say they are but speak nonsense, and the same goes with other "religions". The difference between you and I is, I have read and studied these books. And although it is easy to say there are a lots of spins on the story and lies, it is hard to prove that, and you cannot simply brush off the predictions that have come true. Look man, Dawkins is smart, but not wise. Education is not the same as Wisdom.
By now we know pretty much how the Universe started, but apologists' crown argument is we don't know why it happened, so it had to be God. To put it in perspective: we know how ocean waves form, but we don't have any argument for 'why' do they form. I guess you could succesfully argue that the reason for which seawaves exist is some God - say, Poseidon. And that goes for every physical phenomenon -wind, lightning, big bang- but no one seems to believe them to be divine acts, except for big bang.
After we die, our conscious minds will be extinguished. We will think and feel and BE nothing... for all eternity. I like thinking and being alive, but I recognise that just because I don't want to die doesn't mean it's not going to happen. You believe that after you die you'll go to a magical place where you'll hang out with your bestest imaginary friend for ever and ever. Now which one of us is facing reality like a grown-up and which one of us is facing it like a scared child?
@TheOptimistPrime Many in the atheist community adhere to all kinds of beliefs. We are individuals just like theists. The difference is that our atheism doesn't require us to share the same or similar opinions on non provable topics such as virgin birth, rising from the dead, performing miracles etc. This is because atheism is not a belief system. It is difficult for religious believers to understand that being an atheist does not infer a certain type of belief or shared values. It is not a club
I know right, I like how he tacks on his agenda at the end. His 'research' is clearly bias & should be ignored. My uncle's a physicist, I saw him at a wedding Saturday, I asked him flat out, 'are you an atheist' he laughed & said no, why? I told him some people think 'science' disproves god. He said, "don't listen to people who try to marry science with god, they're going into waters science cant go, that's not what it's for. It explains the material universe, God is not material, end of story."
@SDub817 It's available now through Amazon and the Dawkins Foundation store -- if you have trouble finding it, just let us know. Many thanks for your interest!
"instead using the rational part of their brain to make a thoughtful decision on whether or not blind belief in something" and that would be an assumption that it is blind belief.
It certainly isn't. The result of a proper train of thought usually is the most probable alternative. It is surely not universally verifyable, but it is subjectively more likely than the other alternatives. So in a sense I subscribe to your notion of a belief, but not to the attribute "blind", as alternatives are weighed against each other as objectively as possible instead of just grabbing one and going with it.
Also, I don't dodge giving an answer. I want you to ask your question clearly. I want to make sure that we talk the same language and share the same assumptions before even starting. Want to push your agenda - nobody cares about it. Wanna talk - think as long as it takes and state your question in such a way as to avoid any ambiguousity. Take a week off, educate yourself a bit - then come back and we'll see whether we can have intelligent conversation. OK with you ?
@Nonsensei436 this sounds suspiciously like an internet argument turning into an agreement, heaven forbid (pun intended). On second thought, we may want to consider turning it into a flame war just to follow the norm :P
Don't avoid the question. It's a perfectly valid thing to ask, what reason do you have to believe in the existence of God. I don't think the meaning could be any clearer, there must be some reason, some experience or some general feeling you have that makes you believe that God exists. I'm just curious as to what it is. Simple answering 'it's not that simple' isn't an answer, it's just avoiding answering the question. I'm beginning to believe that you have no reason. Prove me wrong.
Bertrand Russell (Nobel Laureate in Literature) Views of society: "No one can sit at the bedside of a dying child and still believe in God." Is there a god? "My conclusion is that there is no reason to believe any of the dogmas of traditional theology and, further, that there is no reason to wish that they were true. Man, in so far as he is not subject to natural forces, is free to work out his own destiny. The responsibility is his, and so is the opportunity."
@TheOptimistPrime The ability to handle opposing viewpoints maturely has nothing to do with what anyone believes. It's simply a trait of maturity. Belief, by definition, is nothing more than a gussied up opinion about something that cannot be known. Only facts can be known. The simple fact that gods must be 'believed in' strongly suggests that they don't exist.
@MrFareddy I dont think religion is just about answering questions. I think its about power as well. It might lend a sense of comfort to those on the bottom but thats just a hook to secure their obedience to those on top. i.e. sit in that field and grow crops for your entire life. Never think beyond the edges of your farm land and you will be rewarded eternally after you die. Guys on the bottom think they get an awesome reward. Guys on the top get free food.
For argument sake lets agree there was a creative force behind this, what can be said about it? What is it made of, whats the mechanisms behind it, what drives it? Is it thinking, does it care about us? Can we say anything at all about it other than conclude that yes we are here? It could be nothing like a god-like entity at all for all we know BUT when we can asses some of these questions... You know what... I think science will help you out, but for now, it is out of the research scope.
@eydaimon This is the same as saying to another person that works, "why don't you cut your income in half and donate a good portion. I don't care what your costs are, you should just accept less."
Why do people create delusions? Becuase of the thirst to rationalize outside forces and personal situations from the spectrum of happiness to horrors.. pains and pleasures. People love to blame and give reason... even if it means the use of imagination with no basis in true reality. We humans LOVE to decieve ourselves, especially when we are so totally ignorant. But with that, I think, we also know on a deeper level, we come from a spiritual-energy based existance beyond this human experience.
@Nonsensei436 I think this boils down to a half-full, half-empty type of an argument. Neither one of us may be wrong. let's leave it at that, shall we?
3.27; "Religion is one of the most powerful and damaging factors in the world today. You only have to pick up a newspaper." And Dr Thomson believes what he reads in newspapers. Now who's acting with blind faith?!
How do the facts that religious belief is both a matter of brain chemistry and tied to evolution disprove religion? We have bodies. We can sense the world only through the sensations provided by those bodies; we are trapped in our sensations. If a sense of a spiritual realm is either built in or needed for survival, then religion is more important than we think it is. Yes fundamentalists fear science, and fear their bodies. That doesn't mean everyone else needs to follow suit.
@Nonsensei436 and I'm sorry you don't get that if the message really is so important, the authors would be selling it cheaper and not be so selfish regardless of the work they put in.
@TheOptimistPrime No, it's not a belief system. That's like saying not smoking is a habit. Or not running competitively is a sport. It is simply not the case. No matter how many times believers try to say it is! If I say "I don't subscribe to the belief in a god", that is not the same as saying "I subscribe to the belief that there is not a god". Disbelief in a supernatural deity is the default position. It is not a belief system any more than not believing in fairies requires faith. It doesn't.
God clearly stated in John 3:18(King James Bible)Whosoever believeth NOT is condemned already, bec he hath NOT believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Christians are wisest people on earth: Discovered God is Creator and Believing in Him receives Eternal life through Jesus Christ!!! This is the best gift which the foolish reject. God will cast the unbelieving and all liars into the lake of fire even those who falsely claimed themselves as 'Christians' as stated in Revelation 21:8
"Youre worshipping a God that requires faith without evidence.." ... - Why do you think there's no evidence? ... - What is "evidence" in your understanding? ... - What tools would you use to analyze the evidence if presented? ... - Why do you think that the tools are error-free ? ... - and so on.
According to Albert Einstein, God is a Product of Human Weakness. Einstein said: "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." Letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954.
i would think one could live a better life knowing this is not a test run, but your one and only chance to live life to the fullest. i agree 100% people use faith as a coping mechanism, but living in fear of damnation seems like a terribly paranoid means of existing, rather than living. i cannot morally accept any god that would propose such an alternative, simply for questioning the unlikely possibility of his existence.
@hilltownkim What you say I said: "Atheists that dont believe in God don't understand proof." What I actually said: "Atheists that believe God doesn't exist don't fully understand the definition of the word proof." There is a difference between those two statements, a difference you may not be aware of. In addition I'm not going to support my statements with evidence, unless I want you to believe them. The comment you replied to was an opinion and its explanation doesn't fit in one comment.
How about Christian parents who withhold medical treatment from their children ? " look at me Lord, i will let my child die, to prove my devotion, reward me " It is nothing short of human sacrifice
i would like to donate to richard dawkins association, however i live in saudi arabia, and if they found out where the money goes, they probably will close my account, kill me, then investigate with me.
I found some good examples: July 20th, 1969: MEN WALK ON MOON!; Sept. 11, 2001: U.S. ATTACKED, and... are you ready? Nov. 3, 1948: DEWEY BEATS TRUMAN! One of these is false and all were printed in newspapers. The idea is to think skeptically about what we read. You are on the right track, based on your post. But one thing bugs me: Thomson doesn't purport to be an academic; Duke University and The University of Virginia do. They awarded him his BA (Duke), MD and PhD (U. Virginia).
Jesus told that the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.If u think u are smarter than the Christians u are fooled by the devil. Your wisdom can be useful for your belly if u ignore God and His devine plan in the universe. Even if u are wise, u are like a clay in the potter`s hand. Listen to Joshua: U KNOW WITH YOUR HEART N SOUL THAT NOT ONE OF ALL TH GOOD PROMISES THE LORD YOUR GOD GAVE U HAS FAILED. EVERY PROMISE HAS BEEN FULFILLED, NOT ONE HAS FAILED
"It is surely not universally verifyable" but that is not the scrutiny that "God" needs live by, at least not in the sense that one assumes that a being of such magnitude that can easily "hide" itself, if it so desires "should be" quantifiable......that in itself is an absurd notion with which to measure a being of such scope. For the common notion of "belief in an apple that sits upon the ground"....sure those standards would be reasonable. I believe in God & it isn't blind.
lol. Most people come to be atheists after reading the entire Bible. It's one of the best tools to support atheism as it's so easy to debunk and full of contradictions. I dare YOU to finish reading the whole Bible and still be a Christian.
i was a christian for 17 years of my wasted life. not just any kind of christian. a psychotic nut job christian. now i still have some psycho left in me, but i am trying to deal with this, trying to be honest about my psychosis. but seems to me, nearly every fundamental christian is a psychotic 1.
Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve. 2:62 Quran
@TheOptimistPrime I don't 'believe' in atheism. It isn't a belief system but I am an atheist. I apologise if I misjudged you, it was not intentional. If you have an open mind, that is an excellent thing. I agree with you that some atheists on here seem to close their minds but I think that is out of frustration at debating theists and creationists on you tube. I think the reason most atheists are atheists is because they are open minded and look at life from both perspectives, then decide.
Thankfully it is not representative of the vast majority. But now ask why. Could it be Secular laws and morals do not allow this kind of thing ? Could it be the vast majority know that modern medicine works better than prayers ? In India the Parents were arrested for murder under secular laws, but the Holy Man who put them all up to it was let of scot free under religious law. In the UK it was the Doctors and Atheist Grandparents that forced the parents to let their daughter be treated.
It's OK :-) Some Atheist even wrote in comment that he'd prayed to God so I "Go to Hell". That Atheistic guy must have gone nuts :-)), but the result was obvious: The Man talked to God !
nope. i never said being a christian is psychotic. being a fundamental christian is. big difference there. big problem is fundamentality. if you refuse to tolerate people with differing opinions, differing beliefs, you are on the road to psychosis. not trying to troll, my ass.
This is actually the most important question of all. Its answer should lay a groundwork of what can be done in the fields of education and information for parents so children do not become religious just because their parents are, but instead using the rational part of their brain to make a thoughtful decision on whether or not blind belief in something that they cannot observe or verify is the right thing to do.
Thank you! Looking forward to having it in both written and spoken forms.
Beautifully written and I think most people working in science will agree, you are actually portraying the circumstances that drives scientists in all areas to search and learn. It is the reason I call myself an agnostic, I find it to be the most honest position one can have, I don't pretend to know what is out side the burning candle light.
It is true that science is limited but that is in no way a proof of a god AND less than nothing about who this god is.
My fellow religious folk, please don't attempt to rebuke false accusations of us with even more accusations. It just gives them more reasons to hate and harbor bitterness towards us. Remember, blessed are the persecuted but we won't be blessed if we do the persecuting. Even if they misrepresent us with false information and try to spread it around the net, do not try to defend your beliefs. Just acknowledge their beliefs and simply live out your own. If they hit your cheek let them hit the other
One thing I've learned is to never blame an idea for people's choices...
@eydaimon I think you missed the point of mine. You say "if the message is so important why are they charging for it?". I say "the message is important enough to pay $12.95 for it." The man put time and effort into crafting the book. Theres no reason he shouldnt be able to charge whatever he wishes and frankly $12.95 hardly breaks the bank for the majority of americans. Also a portion of the proceeds goes to a foundation i support.
I'm relieved that you responded the way you did - thanks! Sometimes, you get a thought provoking response and sometimes people go off the rails and hurl insults. I am thinking about "more education=more brainwashing". I'll have to look into that. You don't have to answer this, but your inquisition comment made me wonder... let's see, what's a clever way of asking? Do you know what ARC means? Glad you took the time to answer and take care~
Ok I'm obviously going to have to get the ball rolling on this rather than wait for you to do it. So I'm going to ask a fairly simple question and see where we go from there-
What reason do you have to believe in the existence of God? Is it personal revelation, or is it more to do with your upbringing? I'm curious. Please don't dismiss my question, if I am the kind of atheist you seem to think I am then I will reveal myself as such and you shouldn't have anything to worry about, right?
For wanting every person in the world to read this book, the price tag for the mere 144 pages is pretty steep (currently $12.95). You could have charged half and still donated a good portion.
Yes, an audio version has been recorded but has yet to be released. It won't be available as a physical CD, but it will be available for download on Audible, iTunes, and Amazon starting in about a month. We'll be sure to update this thread as soon as it's available. Thanks!
I think Stephen Fry has the best mindset of anyone, he says that even if there is a god out there, we must never fully commit to the idea that there is a heaven, and we should make the most of every moment of our life now, because if we die and there is nothing after this life, atleast we would have had a crammed first life.
"Do not throw your pearls to pigs" - one of my favorites. This is the last time I'm asking you to think about what you are asking.
Dr Thompson, your work is fascinating and important! Great job! I wish you spoke with more gusto to share your findings. You should spend more time on front of a camera practicing your delivery IMO. I've shared some of your lectures with intelligent people and they complain how dry you sound. Sorry to be so critical, but I just really think you have so many important things to share and we should figure out how to best communicate them. 😃
THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO
how come he created us and knows nothing about us???
how come he creates us and forget about us...IMPOSSIBLE
I love God cuz he created me and looks after me in every moment and he gave me many blessings and without his mercy I shall not live for a moment
Philosophy does not depend on verifiable analysis. "I think therefore I am" is unsupported by any experiement, but most people feel it's logical.
Blame the person, not the idea... An idea can not be put to death, nor be arrested...
How much clearer could the question be? What reason do you have to hold the beliefs that you have? No ambiguity, just straight-up, why do you believe what you believe? It couldn't be more clear.
And you're right, it isn't deep thinking. It's the simplest thought possible, but it seems beyond you to accept such a simple premise. You should not leap to any beliefs if they have not been shown to be true. Easy.
and proud of it.
The 'we believe' of religion and the 'we believe' of science are radically different. For religion, it means adhering a priori to a set of propositions about the universe, creation, human origins, etc., because you've been told, and agree, that these propositions are divinely revealed Truth. For science, it means adhering to a method of finding things out - of determining whether propositions about the world are true or not. You fool yourself if you think the two 'we believes' are symmetrical.
I'm buying that book asap.
When is he going to produce a book called Why We Believe in Science
:-) Those are not nonsense, but a suggestion that you yourself employ a rational approach and critical thinking that you, as an atheist, are so proud of and start question the things that you've always taken for granted.
Anyway, state your question ...
They are both activities of the human brain and it would be interesting to know what if any differences occur.
A God should be truthful to his followers by giving evidence of his existence.
@PitchstoneBooks When does this book come out?
There's so many good books by authors like Harris, Dawkins and the like. I would love to read this one too, I'll probably buy it, but if only I had the time to read more than one book per year. It's quite frustrating.
@MrFareddy @Nonsensei436 Yes, but your equation is just the starting point. The book examines the cognitive mechanisms that allow man to actually believe in god(s) and have faith in god(s). For example, what is it about the human mind that allows people to "talk" to god(s) or "experience" god(s) or to believe in a soul that's detached from the body? The easiest way to put it is that Dr. Thomson explains "how" the mind tricks people into belief -- not just the "why" of belief.
@soundofgeek yes, it'll be available electronically starting June 1, so please look for it then on Amazon or your eSeller of choice. Many thanks for your interest!
Has there been an update on when "Why We Believe in God(s)" will be available on audiobook?
Interestingly, most people want to believe in God when they are at 30,000 ft and they discover they may well be about to die. Or when they discover a relative or a loved one may be about to die. I don't find many parents who would not accept prayer etc in that situation.
Arguing with theists may strengthen their faith in the short term, but it exposes the flaws in their arguments to bystanders and when they do arrive at a junction in their life when they could rethink their stance on Yawah's existence they will remember some of your arguments.
your absolutely right. Science is fact or atleast the search for the truth, faith is a fairytale. Belief in god is like believing in santa claus, easter bunny, or the tooth fairy. Praying to god is a way that people try and cope with their situations. Along with their fear of where their soul will go after death.
yes. How representative is that of the 2.5 billion religious believers on earth?
It is the rational choice to assert non-being beyond the empirical realm until there is evidence for it. And by "evidence" one does not mean the mere say-so of self-appointed "prophets".
@Nonsensei436 if that's true, then why didn't the author make cheaper? I think you missed the whole point of my post.
Religion may well be irrational and bonkers at times, the thing is religion was often at its conception trying real hard simply to explain 'universal consciousness' or God consciousness if you prefer. There is another place where open minded intelligent minds reside in between religion or science, and that place will one day provide the thread that knits it all together. All atoms are from the same source, the glue that links them all is yet to be discovered in current science.
The point of this is that as humans, we CAN'T answer all of the questions to our existence, no matter how hard we try. If you think that we can, then you're probably very arrogant and extremely wrong. I'm not saying we shouldn't try, but 5 seconds in hell would be too much for any human to handle, and if you don't believe me, then you may just end up finding out for yourself.
Im an atheist, I dont worship anything except the ideal of a better humanity.
im not asking myself why do i want to read this book????? i thought you were going to answer the question- why we beilieve in god
"but just calling someone a stupid pussy is the complete opposite of anything constructive"
What chance do we have of having a "constructive debate" ? I'd say, similar to that of the probability of existing of Flying Spaghetti Monster? (I assume that Atheists calculated that right, however, that makes the assumption unreliable...)
When does this book come out?
Although I partially agree with your statement, and there are many "Christians" out there who say they are but speak nonsense, and the same goes with other "religions". The difference between you and I is, I have read and studied these books. And although it is easy to say there are a lots of spins on the story and lies, it is hard to prove that, and you cannot simply brush off the predictions that have come true. Look man, Dawkins is smart, but not wise. Education is not the same as Wisdom.
By now we know pretty much how the Universe started, but apologists' crown argument is we don't know why it happened, so it had to be God.
To put it in perspective: we know how ocean waves form, but we don't have any argument for 'why' do they form. I guess you could succesfully argue that the reason for which seawaves exist is some God - say, Poseidon. And that goes for every physical phenomenon -wind, lightning, big bang- but no one seems to believe them to be divine acts, except for big bang.
After we die, our conscious minds will be extinguished. We will think and feel and BE nothing... for all eternity.
I like thinking and being alive, but I recognise that just because I don't want to die doesn't mean it's not going to happen.
You believe that after you die you'll go to a magical place where you'll hang out with your bestest imaginary friend for ever and ever.
Now which one of us is facing reality like a grown-up and which one of us is facing it like a scared child?
@TheOptimistPrime Many in the atheist community adhere to all kinds of beliefs. We are individuals just like theists. The difference is that our atheism doesn't require us to share the same or similar opinions on non provable topics such as virgin birth, rising from the dead, performing miracles etc. This is because atheism is not a belief system. It is difficult for religious believers to understand that being an atheist does not infer a certain type of belief or shared values. It is not a club
I know right, I like how he tacks on his agenda at the end. His 'research' is clearly bias & should be ignored. My uncle's a physicist, I saw him at a wedding Saturday, I asked him flat out, 'are you an atheist' he laughed & said no, why? I told him some people think 'science' disproves god. He said, "don't listen to people who try to marry science with god, they're going into waters science cant go, that's not what it's for. It explains the material universe, God is not material, end of story."
@SDub817 It's available now through Amazon and the Dawkins Foundation store -- if you have trouble finding it, just let us know. Many thanks for your interest!
"instead using the rational part of their brain to make a thoughtful decision on whether or not blind belief in something"
and that would be an assumption that it is blind belief.
It certainly isn't. The result of a proper train of thought usually is the most probable alternative. It is surely not universally verifyable, but it is subjectively more likely than the other alternatives. So in a sense I subscribe to your notion of a belief, but not to the attribute "blind", as alternatives are weighed against each other as objectively as possible instead of just grabbing one and going with it.
Also, I don't dodge giving an answer. I want you to ask your question clearly. I want to make sure that we talk the same language and share the same assumptions before even starting. Want to push your agenda - nobody cares about it. Wanna talk - think as long as it takes and state your question in such a way as to avoid any ambiguousity. Take a week off, educate yourself a bit - then come back and we'll see whether we can have intelligent conversation. OK with you ?
@Nonsensei436 this sounds suspiciously like an internet argument turning into an agreement, heaven forbid (pun intended). On second thought, we may want to consider turning it into a flame war just to follow the norm :P
If you're going to do the work all by yourself anyway then what's the point of praying to god in the first place?
well spoken...in total agreement... ...my sentiments exactly... ... ...watch out for objects hurled at you though*****
Would have loved to buy it but the transport is more expencive than the book :/
Don't avoid the question. It's a perfectly valid thing to ask, what reason do you have to believe in the existence of God. I don't think the meaning could be any clearer, there must be some reason, some experience or some general feeling you have that makes you believe that God exists. I'm just curious as to what it is. Simple answering 'it's not that simple' isn't an answer, it's just avoiding answering the question. I'm beginning to believe that you have no reason. Prove me wrong.
Bertrand Russell (Nobel Laureate in Literature)
Views of society: "No one can sit at the bedside of a dying child and still believe in God."
Is there a god? "My conclusion is that there is no reason to believe any of the dogmas of traditional theology and, further, that there is no reason to wish that they were true. Man, in so far as he is not subject to natural forces, is free to work out his own destiny. The responsibility is his, and so is the opportunity."
@TheOptimistPrime
The ability to handle opposing viewpoints maturely has nothing to do with what anyone believes. It's simply a trait of maturity.
Belief, by definition, is nothing more than a gussied up opinion about something that cannot be known. Only facts can be known.
The simple fact that gods must be 'believed in' strongly suggests that they don't exist.
If only everyone thought that way...
The internet ALWAYS tells the truth, right?
@MrFareddy I dont think religion is just about answering questions. I think its about power as well. It might lend a sense of comfort to those on the bottom but thats just a hook to secure their obedience to those on top. i.e. sit in that field and grow crops for your entire life. Never think beyond the edges of your farm land and you will be rewarded eternally after you die. Guys on the bottom think they get an awesome reward. Guys on the top get free food.
For argument sake lets agree there was a creative force behind this, what can be said about it? What is it made of, whats the mechanisms behind it, what drives it? Is it thinking, does it care about us? Can we say anything at all about it other than conclude that yes we are here? It could be nothing like a god-like entity at all for all we know BUT when we can asses some of these questions... You know what... I think science will help you out, but for now, it is out of the research scope.
@eydaimon This is the same as saying to another person that works, "why don't you cut your income in half and donate a good portion. I don't care what your costs are, you should just accept less."
Why do people create delusions? Becuase of the thirst to rationalize outside forces and personal situations from the spectrum of happiness to horrors.. pains and pleasures. People love to blame and give reason... even if it means the use of imagination with no basis in true reality. We humans LOVE to decieve ourselves, especially when we are so totally ignorant. But with that, I think, we also know on a deeper level, we come from a spiritual-energy based existance beyond this human experience.
@Nonsensei436 I think this boils down to a half-full, half-empty type of an argument. Neither one of us may be wrong. let's leave it at that, shall we?
3.27; "Religion is one of the most powerful and damaging factors in the world today. You only have to pick up a newspaper." And Dr Thomson believes what he reads in newspapers. Now who's acting with blind faith?!
How do the facts that religious belief is both a matter of brain chemistry and tied to evolution disprove religion? We have bodies. We can sense the world only through the sensations provided by those bodies; we are trapped in our sensations. If a sense of a spiritual realm is either built in or needed for survival, then religion is more important than we think it is.
Yes fundamentalists fear science, and fear their bodies. That doesn't mean everyone else needs to follow suit.
@Nonsensei436 and I'm sorry you don't get that if the message really is so important, the authors would be selling it cheaper and not be so selfish regardless of the work they put in.
@eydaimon Content? This isnt a DLC for some video game. More pages does not always equal better. Im sorry you cant understand that.
@TheOptimistPrime No, it's not a belief system. That's like saying not smoking is a habit. Or not running competitively is a sport. It is simply not the case. No matter how many times believers try to say it is! If I say "I don't subscribe to the belief in a god", that is not the same as saying "I subscribe to the belief that there is not a god". Disbelief in a supernatural deity is the default position. It is not a belief system any more than not believing in fairies requires faith. It doesn't.
God clearly stated in John 3:18(King James Bible)Whosoever believeth NOT is condemned already, bec he hath NOT believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Christians are wisest people on earth: Discovered God is Creator and Believing in Him receives Eternal life through Jesus Christ!!! This is the best gift which the foolish reject. God will cast the unbelieving and all liars into the lake of fire even those who falsely claimed themselves as 'Christians' as stated in Revelation 21:8
@lambsev Circular reasoning works because circular reasoning.
Perhaps you mean recorded history, since "throughout history" would be a bit silly.
"Youre worshipping a God that requires faith without evidence.."
... - Why do you think there's no evidence?
... - What is "evidence" in your understanding?
... - What tools would you use to analyze the evidence if presented?
... - Why do you think that the tools are error-free ?
... - and so on.
Hmm... Doesn't thinking require, as a necessary (though not sufficient) precondition, existing?
According to Albert Einstein, God is a Product of Human Weakness. Einstein said:
"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."
Letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954.
i would think one could live a better life knowing this is not a test run, but your one and only chance to live life to the fullest. i agree 100% people use faith as a coping mechanism, but living in fear of damnation seems like a terribly paranoid means of existing, rather than living.
i cannot morally accept any god that would propose such an alternative, simply for questioning the unlikely possibility of his existence.
@SissingPyd Not at the moment, but perhaps at a future date.
@eydaimon The message is what is important, not the price per page.
@hilltownkim What you say I said: "Atheists that dont believe in God don't understand proof." What I actually said: "Atheists that believe God doesn't exist don't fully understand the definition of the word proof." There is a difference between those two statements, a difference you may not be aware of. In addition I'm not going to support my statements with evidence, unless I want you to believe them. The comment you replied to was an opinion and its explanation doesn't fit in one comment.
How about Christian parents who withhold medical treatment from their children ? " look at me Lord, i will let my child die, to prove my devotion, reward me " It is nothing short of human sacrifice
i would like to donate to richard dawkins association, however i live in saudi arabia, and if they found out where the money goes, they probably will close my account, kill me, then investigate with me.
I found some good examples: July 20th, 1969: MEN WALK ON MOON!; Sept. 11, 2001: U.S. ATTACKED, and... are you ready? Nov. 3, 1948: DEWEY BEATS TRUMAN! One of these is false and all were printed in newspapers. The idea is to think skeptically about what we read. You are on the right track, based on your post. But one thing bugs me: Thomson doesn't purport to be an academic; Duke University and The University of Virginia do. They awarded him his BA (Duke), MD and PhD (U. Virginia).
Jesus told that the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.If u think u are smarter than the Christians u are fooled by the devil. Your wisdom can be useful for your belly if u ignore God and His devine plan in the universe. Even if u are wise, u are like a clay in the potter`s hand. Listen to Joshua: U KNOW WITH YOUR HEART N SOUL THAT NOT ONE OF ALL TH GOOD PROMISES THE LORD YOUR GOD GAVE U HAS FAILED. EVERY PROMISE HAS BEEN FULFILLED, NOT ONE HAS FAILED
"It is surely not universally verifyable"
but that is not the scrutiny that "God" needs live by, at least not in the sense that one assumes that a being of such magnitude that can easily "hide" itself, if it so desires "should be" quantifiable......that in itself is an absurd notion with which to measure a being of such scope. For the common notion of "belief in an apple that sits upon the ground"....sure those standards would be reasonable.
I believe in God & it isn't blind.
@Trogdor8freebird I'm willing to debate you. Firstly, I require that you accept the following proposition. The Truth is independent of belief.
@valgez1 What a humble person you are
lol. Most people come to be atheists after reading the entire Bible. It's one of the best tools to support atheism as it's so easy to debunk and full of contradictions. I dare YOU to finish reading the whole Bible and still be a Christian.
i was a christian for 17 years of my wasted life. not just any kind of christian. a psychotic nut job christian. now i still have some psycho left in me, but i am trying to deal with this, trying to be honest about my psychosis. but seems to me, nearly every fundamental christian is a psychotic 1.
Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve. 2:62 Quran
@TheTexanCanadian No. They have no answers except for those we discover. Those questions are by no means unanswerable. Science makes it possible.
@TheOptimistPrime I don't 'believe' in atheism. It isn't a belief system but I am an atheist. I apologise if I misjudged you, it was not intentional. If you have an open mind, that is an excellent thing. I agree with you that some atheists on here seem to close their minds but I think that is out of frustration at debating theists and creationists on you tube. I think the reason most atheists are atheists is because they are open minded and look at life from both perspectives, then decide.
Thankfully it is not representative of the vast majority. But now ask why. Could it be Secular laws and morals do not allow this kind of thing ? Could it be the vast majority know that modern medicine works better than prayers ?
In India the Parents were arrested for murder under secular laws, but the Holy Man who put them all up to it was let of scot free under religious law. In the UK it was the Doctors and Atheist Grandparents that forced the parents to let their daughter be treated.
A personal experience?
If you don't see the hollowness of religion its your loss not mine.
Really, so if I pray really really hard I can make appear a pink fairy. To deny a pink fairy is to say they do not exist.
It's OK :-) Some Atheist even wrote in comment that he'd prayed to God so I "Go to Hell". That Atheistic guy must have gone nuts :-)), but the result was obvious: The Man talked to God !
@pilkomaster Your implying that believing in Gos means you can't have a cram packed life. How's that then?
Where's the justice against people who lies, steal, blaspheme, kill and covet? o.o
nope. i never said being a christian is psychotic. being a fundamental christian is. big difference there. big problem is fundamentality. if you refuse to tolerate people with differing opinions, differing beliefs, you are on the road to psychosis. not trying to troll, my ass.