YOU'VE been taught the WRONG technique [THROTTLE]
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- Опубліковано 20 чер 2024
- You may not know, you're using the MOST USED PEDAL wrong. I was taught the wrong way, and decades later that I FIGURED OUT the CORRECT METHOD. Now that I have, I will share with you, HOW YOU CAN PERFECT YOU'RE TECHNIQUE
Chapters:
00:00 Were you taught THIS?
00:36 Why Early Throttle = SLOW?
03:37 Throttle ≠ Acceleration
05:22 When to Throttle?
06:26 Ask Me Anything
EDIT: A few acute viewers have brought this up so I will address it here. I misspoke when when I recorded the video, and didn't notice until I was editing it. At 05:30, I said the car would understeer on throttle
"especially if you're producing so little torque, your differential stays locked".
This is incorrect, as low torque would lead to an open diff, in lieu of sufficient preload. The long form of what I intended to say was this...
with lif the diff is locked and the drive train torque is low, there isn't enough torque to spin the inside rear wheel (sufficiently) so the car just understeers.
I didn't mean it as there's little torque so the diff stays locked, because that wouldn't make sense...
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There's a simple test to validate what I'm talking about. Find a fast lap of your favorite fast driver, someone who's truly fast, in the real world or a sim racer. Watch that lap and look at where the minimum speeds are. Is it very close to the apex? If there's no telemetry, listen to the engine note to determine if the car accelerates at the apex.
Here's the first search result I got with fast lap speed telemetry on a UA-cam search: ua-cam.com/video/MpS9e_dAS08/v-deo.html
@obimk1104agree. I didn't mention it here, but in a few of the other comments, and in my previous video, I contextually refer to 'vanilla' corners, which are just plain jane corners with uniformity and homogeneity. There are always exceptions, for example funky geometry at the inside of the corner. What I speak of is not intended to address those, but serve as a baseline that can be adjusted to optimize 'unusual' corners.
Also, a driver can like a pointy car or pushy car, but the physics of where the min speed and min radius is doesn't really change. Where it does change is where the apex/min radius is.
My split time deltas are proof this technique works. Applying throttle just before apex helps balance the car as well, increasing maximum grip and increasing the min speed at apex.
For those who don't know, ☝this guy is the PCA Pro class Season 9 Champion. Check out his photo finish Championship win here! (And stay for his interview!)
ua-cam.com/video/c0_GPzdYi1U/v-deo.html
seems correct, so another benefit.
That was a good race with good commentary. A few mistakes with the drivers at the back. A poor overtake on the inside that damaged a few cars and the guy that wheel span right into the other guy in the barrier. I know he had a little damage but it looked like his TCS was either off or his differential was too loose. Good job on your part though!
This is the first time I've heard maintenance throttle used in car applications. Ive only ever heard it in motorcycle videos and always found it odd that it hasn't spread beyond. Bravo!👏👏
Oh, interesting. I always thought it was a commonly used term.
This is true! I always find myself throttling a bit before the apex! After all those trials and errors, I managed to add that to my driving.
After Nick explanation, I now fully understand the science behind it. Thank Nick! Can't wait for more driving lesson videos!
No problem, hopefully these videos can help you eliminate trial and error! I hate trial and error... lol
The issue is, Iracing has inconsistent grip physics, net code and packet loss.
That being said, I love your channels already! Subbed. I can’t wait to brag in a couple years saying I found you before 4k subs haha
Thanks for the support! And welcome to the OG club!
Yes that's true. The reality is though, even IRL, grip through a corner is never truly uniform and homogeneous. Whether in sim or IRL, most of the time it's uniform enough to apply these techniques and get you 95% of the way there. The remaining 5% is going to require additional knowledge and skills to unlock, but will be useless to a driver if they can't get to 95% first.
Just realized I've been using this technique at SPA in ACC, good video!!
I got taught this by my HGV instructor. He called it his modified version of maintaining a positive axel.
So at 2:00 i feel you missed an obvious joke where "the radius goes from infinity, to minimum and then back to infinity" you need to add "AND BEYOND!" after it
I'll let myself out! 😂😂😂
PS Loved the video
🚀Lol Thanks! That reminds me, I haven't seen the movie yet...
Now I understand what my instructor was trying to get me to do going through the corkscrew 😅 Looking forward to applying this with the added knowledge you provided!
Let us know how it goes when you're at Laguna again!
@@LastTenth Shaved off ~1.7s from my previous best lap. :) Thank you!!!
Wow @@auslacroix that's yuge!!
@@LastTenth 🙏 1:45 is the goal for this year.
Nice to see Mosport so well represented in your video. I'm running a 2016 JCW Mini (Factory Stock) so understeer is just a fact of life for me. Turn 2 to 3 is my favourite and I'm continuing to work on 5A-C. I take a slightly wider line through there to combat the understeer.
Oh you frequent Mosport too! Would love to get your opinion on my track guide: ua-cam.com/video/AFDObG6rHhg/v-deo.html. T5 is so hard to get perfect.
This channel is slept on.... This is genuinely some of the best content for sim racers to watch... Keep going my guy! We're behind you 🎉
Love the encouragement man!!
i've heard jackie stewart say 'don't get on the throttle till you know you don't have to get off it'.
I agree with it, but I find it a bit incomplete, because you can get on the throttle late and not have to lift, but that won't be optimal. Vice versa, you can over slow and get on the throttle early and not have to lift.
@@LastTenth yeah i didn't mean it to contradict with you and i don't disagree with what you're saying. i think jackie stewart said that in the context that everyone wants to get on the throttle as hard and early as they can.
@@sultanabran1I didn't take it as you disagreeing or contradicting. I Agree with his statement, and with you, my meaning was just that taking that statement in isolation (or not in context), misses some of the aspects of when optimal throttle timing is.
youre def gonna get somewhere, great video and great advice. im not a sim racer, but i do like to drive on tracks sometimes for fun. definitely helpful
Thanks! The principles are the same - physics is physics. But if sim isn't your thing, this may be more your pace:
ua-cam.com/video/y7ImtfZWT_4/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/Hq1SojzAO14/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/U2oNj4Ge_as/v-deo.html
This content. I mean this video in particual is a rare gem. Nick from @LastTenth usually give a more technical view of what the hell is happening beyond the steering wheel and I love it. But nobody answer those weird, intrincated questions like him. And I was scratching my head for years, paying coachers to know when I suppose to acel. and how much! Nobody has the asnwer but Nick. Thank you!!!
Thanks! What you mentioned is a large part of my coaching ethos. A good driver shouldn't need to rely on faster drivers' telemetry or a coach to tell them where they're supposed to brake or when they should get on the throttle. They should be taught the tools to precisely find out by themselves.
Eye opening fr fr, stoked to try this mentality out
Let us know how it goes! 😀
It’s kinda interesting, on low grip ovals with high horsepower cars, pros will blip the throttle before the apex to twist the car to the apex and then accelerate. Kevin Harvick is a master at this. Enter beyond max grip, blip to turn in, accelerate out of apex
Interesting. Got any clips?
That sounds like the technique used by world rally drivers; set the car for a slight drift before the apex, so you're ready to slow down if needed, while keeping the car pointed in the right direction. If the car is drifting, the traction vector that the tires apply to the car is pointed slightly towards the inside of the curve, which helps in taking the curve. Conversely, with a car that doesn't drift, the traction vector points tangentially towards the outside of the curve. Slight drift is useful if you're not after the ultimate fuel economy. Tires are easily repleacable, the whole car isn't.😉
@@LastTenth I couldn’t find any. But I was using it last night in the iRacing Gen 4 at Kansas. After 10-15 laps the car wants to push center through exit. For the smallest split millisecond I was maxing throttle then instantly releasing back to 45%. Without the blip you can barely give it 20-30% at the same part of the corner
@@altair7001 It’s similar, yes. The difference is Oval turns are massive wide radius turns. In road and most rally the car is at max grip for 1,2,3 maybe 4 seconds. In Oval racing the car is at absolute max grip for up to 10-15 seconds sometimes. Blipping the throttle twists the car while keeping it at max grip
Totally @@altair7001! I mentioned the exact same thing in one of the comments somewhere. In addition, I vaguely recall reading that by putting the car into a high slip angle on a loose surface, the tires create more of a wedge on the surface which helps cornering.
This is the first video I've seen of yours. I really liked it. Subscribing right now, and looking forward to going through more of your content!
Very happy to see you found me!
Why am I just finding your channel? Watch a bunch of your Vids this morning, great content. Thank You!
I've had a lot of trouble getting the YT algo to show my videos to viewers. Seems like I'm having better luck with this one and it reached yout!
Thanks for the support!
Well explained, thank you!
Very welcome!
This is so awesome! Thank you! I knew what I have been told by my instructor was slowing me down and I was applying some throttle before the apex, but I didn’t know why and wasn’t sure if I should. Now I know and can practice with a clear and determined mindset. It will help me tremendously!
Happy to hear that! If quite interesting that there are soooo many drivers and instructors that are doing/teaching the right techniques, but they don't truly know why they should be doing it. I feel like without knowing why, we're always in this grey area where we're not sure if we're doing the right thing; I hate being in the grey area.
This is a really well put together video, well done. From my experience, when I hit the apex I'm looking for the car to be at that instantaneous "steady state" cornering condition where the speed is constant and you are maximizing the lateral grip of the tires only. Easier said than done!
Thanks! Yeah that's exactly it. At the apex, when the car is at min speed, it transitions from deceleration to acceleration, which means for a (more or less) brief moment, the car has no long G's on it and lat G's will be at maximum.
Very good video!
Trying to optimize lap times while karting with low-powered karts actually teaches this very well, as they tend to lag upon throttle input significantly.
Also... MOOOOOOSPORT. Favourite track!
@@solcharms Love the track! Yeah I've only done a bit of karting but I'd imagine it's especially so since overslowing will really bog down the engine and till your lap time.
Great video... An interesting way to explain iot would be to show telemetry throttle inputs through a corner from Ayrton Senna's races in F1, He would continually modulate the throttle to get the car balanced and ready for the exit
Thank U from southwestern France, good and usefull video = one more subscriber!
Thanks! I'm gonna keep trying to deliver useful videos!
That last bit about smoothness reminds me of the video from Driver61 about Jenson Button, where his engineer said that while his steering input was extremely smooth, apparently his feet were going totally ballistic, micro managing brake and throttle to finely control the balance of the car. Is it analogous to the technique you're talking about ?
It's not related to the technique, but related to the comment about smoothness. If we're on the limit, the inputs can't be smooth, we either have to continually adjust the steering, and/or the pedals. And what matters is that the car's behavior (load transfer, yaw rate, etc) is smooth, and perfectly smooth inputs is not a requirement to achieve that.
I was wishing this kind of video :) thanks
Wow thanks! Pls wish for 1M subs for me 😂
Bro great explanation! New subscriber right here! 😀
Thanks for the support man!!
also the algorithm has blessed you! subscribed
I have been making sacrifices to the algo gods for quite a while now.
Thanks for the sub!
It´s the best, most complete and technical explanation for contouring a curve at an appropriate speed. Y´r a master Guru! Cool dude!
Thanks for the support man!
good video Nick.
Thanks man!
Great video! subbed
Thanks!
Nice 👍🏼
Yes and yes , I'll have to watch this wonderfull human being , did not Overstrand at all , and I lov it , teckers
Fantastic
“As early as possible” could be shorthand for “as soon as you can progressively move toward full throttle without having to pause or back out of it and still hit your apex”.
Think about it. If there was no limiting factor involved then you could just do it as soon as you wanted.
That's not exactly optimal because a driver can get on the throttle and accelerate into the apex without lifting but that would mean he/she would have over-slowed and not used all of the car's grip during the entry. The point of the video is that we need to accelerate as close to the min radius/apex as possible, and perform whatever throttle inputs we need to achieve that.
@@LastTenth It is possible to go into a corner too slowly but once you've done that the best way forward is still to accelerate as soon as possible. BTW, there are people who disagree about whether or not you should prioritize highest min apex speed or not. Rob Wilson makes some good points as to why you should not. I lifted my "when you should get on the throttle" from Keith Code. Simon Crafar says "It's not who gets on the throttle first, it's who gets to max throttle first." I'm no pro so it's fair to put little to no weight in my views but I am just pointing out that either there are pros who disagree with you or we're not understanding each other.
For clarity's sake, my take is...
- Yes, it is possible to overslow on entry and that's clearly not good
- The fastest way around a track isn't necessarily with the highest min speed
- Assuming you're on the correct line and correct speed for your given corner, you should transition from the brakes to the throttle as soon as you have achieved the rotation and can do so without pushing wide.
- There are a lot of factors determining what the correct line is, how much trail braking is called for, how late the apex should be, etc and the corner shape and radius as well as the vehicle's setup and power profile all factor into that.
@@sportbikejesus6297
I wouldn't discount your views, you've obviously researched it and put thought into the topic.
On those statements... if I overslow, I can get on max throttle first. So as far as finding the optimal line and input goes, I would say that statement is incomplete.
And thanks for the point form, it makes things easier.
- I would say that the fastest way around the track is *definitely* not with the highest min speed, because the highest min speed would imply a geometric line, which we all know is not optimal.
- I would opine that how much trail braking and how late the apex should be is a function of the optimal line, not the other way around. The optimal line is largely dependent on grip/power ratio, corner topography and geometry. It is one where the grip limit is used as long as possible, whilst using as much track as possible, with the min radius generally at the apex (sometimes inside of corners have weird shapes)
Great explanation! Switching from an ICE to electric car really threw me the first time because of this. An ICE needs to "spin up" (more parasitic loss) to actually accelerate so you need to be earlier on the throttle. In an EV you need to be later and smoother to not over do it since the throttle response is almost instantaneous, that has to be balanced against the amount of regenerative braking your car is doing (which doesn't behave like engine braking in terms of its influence on deceleration). It's a bit of a mind trip going from one to the other!
Very interesting comment. I've never pushed an EV outside of in a straight line (which is just foot to the floor) but it makes sense because in an ICE, when you get on the throttle, the revs climb and it generates more and more power. So it might take a moment to reach the power/thrust you want. Where in an EV, regardless of motor speed, the torque is the same for a given pedal position.
@@LastTenth exactly!
Great video. Just subscribed. I drive the 992 GT3 R in ACC. I too have found that slight acceleration before the apex works. With the Porsche I find that I'm dealing with grip and also the the weight at the rear end. Once the rear starts sliding out I'm done. So for me it's finding the balance of grip and the pendulum motion of the rear end. Applying too much steering angle during late breaking causes the rear end to swing out more than in a mid-engine car. I can't take the corner in the same way as a Ferrari 296. Coasting in the 992 is also not good on a corner as I can't feel the traction. It would be great to see a video on how to drive a Porsche. I believe it's definitely an outlier when discussing cornering.
That's a good video idea. I predominantly drive Porsches in iRacing because I mostly run in the PCA league. But that also means I rarely drive anything else so I'm going to have to spend some time doing that if I'm to make a good video about it.
The differential also plays a part in practice. For example old 911s with typically a higher locking bias on the deceleration side might actually benefit from having some throttle before apex, to get the car to yaw more; in combination with the tendency to lock the inside front tire on trailbraking. So the ideal technique might not be to "trailbrake until apex" as people might say for a generic answer but to apply some maintenance throttle before it.
Same logic for example in a FWD car with a differential that has a higher locking bias on the acceleration side; you can tune out some entry-oversteer by getting on the throttle before apex.
Of course the weirder the setup becomes, the further from "conventionally correct" technique one has to go; think of a very understeery car with a spool diff and very high power. You might even want to be slipping the rear tires a little past the optimal slipratio BEFORE apex to get the car to turn.
Agree, while the changes to balance (and by extension total grip) through pedal inputs were slightly beyond the scope I had intended for this video, I did mention how diffs plays into it briefly, but didn't do a very good job (see video description).
@@LastTenth The video is fine. People need a simple starting point to get some ideas in their head.
However there is the simple version and the correct version when it comes to vehicle dynamics. Rules generally apply but there's more nuance in reality and even when driving sims. Of course the further you go from real physics, the more degenerate the techniques/setups can become.
My instructor at Sebring for a track day wanted me to do something similar. He wanted me to get on the throttle lightly before apex to “plant the rear” (shift weight to the rear and increase rear grip?) and usually just before or at the apex I could go full throttle in my 161 whp RWD car.
Yeah pretty much the same concept. Load transfer is more circumstantial though. Whether that's good or not depends on the car and setup.
I drink your advice 👍 Thanks !!!
LoL you make it sound like it's kool-aid
What a banger
This is silly. Nobody is arguing that turning in as early as possible while stamping on the throttle = get on the throttle as early as possible. You could take any bit of good practice and take it too literally and find it's counter productive. What early throttle is really all about is setting up the car for the corner but not making the novice mistake of turning in too early and finding you can't get into the throttle properly until much later. Correct turn in point will allow earlier sustained and building throttle application. Turn in point and throttle in this way are obviously codependent. So, to put it another way, it's about putting the focus broadly on getting on the throttle early rather than turning in early. In really broad terms, if you set the car up on corner entry to enable early sustained throttle application, you're like going to be turning in at the right point and everything flows from there.
That's obviously an exaggerated example, but if you take some advice, and you take it to the extreme, and it falls apart, it's not very good advice, because then you don't know how far to take it. And the main point of the video is to determine where exactly a driver should be getting on the throttle. I've read your explanation a few times, for example, it's still not very clear to me where exactly a driver should be applying throttle, or accelerating.
well explained for a generic turn. Anyway, early throttle I understand that’s what it means, to start applying it before the apex so the car doesn’t slow down anymore when it hits it. so early throttle is not slow, too early throttle is slow.
Yes it's aimed at plain vanilla corners. While the video was aimed at the "as early as possible" dogma, the problem with terms like "early throttle" is that it's kinda vague and doesn't really mean anything... how "early" is "early"? And how early is too early? It's not wholistic enough to really teach anything.
Senna was stabbing the throttle mid corner and people still wonder why 30 years later. Good clip.
It would be awesome to be able to analyst his telemetry.
any videos on understanding powertrains such as differential lock around a corner and all that
That's been long on my to do list. Believe it or not, I literally have a list of like 50 video topics. Unfortunately I don't have an ETA on a video on differentials though...
One of my coach's said to me to putting the power down is easy carrying the speed is hard
I would agree. That little bit of speed right in the middle of the corner at the brake-throttle transition is the hardest imo.
Question for you, at the When to throttle section at @5:22 does the same basic principle apply to AWD cars which usually are largely prone to understeer to begin with?
I like driving the R34 GTR alot in AC and I find it requires alot of weight transfer into the apex . I'm still looking to improve greatly so I can get a sub 8min on Nordshliefe.
Thanks man! great vid.
Thanks for the compliment. I would say throttling too early would be a problem for any platform. But you're touching on a topic that was beyond the scope of this video. The throttle can affect speed, but it also affects overall grip and balance. In practice, drivers will have to manage all 3. If the throttle is too early in your case, then that's definitely something to pay attention to, but more than likely the line choice is also suboptimal, and that is more related to what you're asking.
@@LastTenth Buddy! I can't believe you responded to me! thanks so much for the advice, even if it's outside of the scope of the video. I'm subscribing!!
@@zerh69LoL I try to reply when I can!
What telemetry programm are you using that is displayed in the background ?
That's motec
Tl;dr: Get on the throttle when you're supposed to.
Newtonian physics explains the same but differently. Everything wants to travel in a straight line unless acted on by another force. When you change direction, you don't simply turn but accelerate in a new direction with whatever energy you have stored. This is why you lose speed when you turn without using any throttle - friction, drag, transmission losses are forces that work against your current energy, so you lose speed. So when you use "maintenance throttle" what you are actually doing is accelerating in the new direction and adding more energy, but at a rate which exactly cancels out all the negative forces, ergo your speed remains the same... if you balanced the right amount of throttle of course.
I've been taught energy management
Interesting. Can you share more?
Hello I am back again! Your videos and tips have actually made me faster. I am now in the top 800 in the world in Daily races when it comes to Gran turmiso! But I've reached a limit to go faster. On the ghosts of faster drivers they always beat me on corner exit despite this throttle technique. It almost like they smash on the gas and go despite my balancing throttle and acceleration at the apex. Any tips?
Hey welcome back! Top 800 is quite an achievement!
People think that smooth and slow throttle is the best technique, but that's not true - it can easily lead to initial understeer which will make the driver slow down the throttle even more. Throttle application needs to be applied in 2 stages, fast and then slow. The principles behind it are quite lengthy so I won't go into it here. BTW, if you have discord, come check out my server (go to discord.lasttenth.com). You may find some answers to questions that you hadn't thought to ask!
@@LastTenth thank you for your quick reply! I will definitely be checking out the discord. Do you think you’ll make a short video in the future about the 2 stage application?
@@LastTenth I’m also struggling to understand that 2 step process. Would you happen to know where I could find more information about it? I don’t believe I’ve seen it in your discord.
@@tea7923 I plan to make a video of it, it's just a matter of when I get around to it - I have a list of like 50 topics. I've not known others that talk about it in this way, but almost all fast drivers I've seen will do this. Most people don't really know why they do certain things or what's really happening when they do it.
HI Nik. I'm a little confused. Applying throttle too early and ending up with understeer I understand. Applying late, and abruptly - why does that also result in understeer?
Hi X! Late and early really doesn't have much bearing on it. Abrupt throttle anywhere in the turn is going to move too much load rearward very quickly, and with how most cars are setup, it's likely going to end up understeering.
“As early as possible” means while maximizing your traction circle and maintaining your line. It never meant over brake, late turn-in, understeer to the apex. I’ve never had a student make that mistake.
I would agree lots of students miss the point of opening the throttle just before the apex. That point is well made.
Of course there’s situations like turn 7 Road Atlanta where you have a tight turn before a long straight. Sacrifice turn 7, late apex, pick up the throttle 5 feet before the “race line” and you’ll be 2-3 mph faster into 10a. Assuming you don’t have anyone behind you that will take the corner.
I see a lot of students make that mistake, especially IRL because they're taught to "late-apex", which is safe, but not fast. When they do this, it's usually very subtle, but it's always visible in the data.
Personally, I would caution using 'speed at a location' as reference of whether one way will produce lower lap times or not. Just like the example in the video (albeit exaggerated), the trailing car gives up entry speed for early throttle and actually reaches a higher speed at the exit of the corner (end of exit curbs). The leading car doesn't reach this speed until 6 car lengths down the straight. Even still, the trailing car will never catch the leading car - because they reached that speed at the same elapsed *time*. The trailing car will not reach a higher speed than the leading car until the lead car starts braking for the next corner. This is just to illustrate that what matters is the what speed the achieves at a certain time, not at a certain location.
@@LastTenth that’s a very fair point! I agree 100% that just because you have a higher speed at the following turn does not indicate a lower lap time. That is indeed a substitution I would be wise not to callously make as they are not mutually inclusive.
I do still think in the very specific example of Road Atlanta it results in a lower lap time, as the very slow speed of 7, and the resulting “over braking” required to initiate that move, might cost you a tenth or two, but the compounding benefit of extending the very long straight results in a reduction in lap times overall. Basically there is a point where the extra speed overcomes the initial sacrifice. It’s why the Brachistochrone Curve is the fastest way to shoot a marble down a ramp.
For the record, the increased speed is evident by the bridge midway, not just the very end. In a SpecE30 your shift points are noticeably earlier that the traditional line.
I just found you so I apologies for not knowing your background, but if you sim race try it at Road Atlanta in turn 7 and see what you think.
No need to apologize@@KindredAutomotive. I've driven RAtl in the sim but not in that context, so I will try it out when I'm 'there' next. Would be interesting to compare that data. Maybe one of the leagues has a race on their schedule. In a Spec E32, are the shift points noticeably earlier by location, or by time? Do you have any reference videos we can study?
The Brachistochrone Curve is a bit different though, the marbles start a the same time at the same speed. I think the analogy would be a version of the Brachistochrone Curve where the marble on the straight ramp starts further down the ramp and at a higher initial speed.
@@LastTenth no videos comparing the two techniques side by side. If you’re trying it it’s only a slight modification, push the turn-in a couple feet and rotate your apex back maybe 12” past the normal.
Shift points are earlier by location on the track. I point out the bridge as a reference because the normal line has me shifting under or just past the bridge, the late apex has me shifting 2-3 cars before. I mentioned that because it’s so far before the end of the back straight that the speed advantage will continue to compound for the remainder of the back straight.
As for the Brachistochrone Curve, it was to illustrate that fastest time is a balance between shortest distance and speed over time. If you delayed the release of the ideal marble to better match the scenario we are speaking about it could still be the winner as long as the initial delay wasn’t longer than the advantage of that path.
In other words, I think your video was 99% right in that the advantage gained would not overcome the initial sacrifice on most corners at most tracks. The only exception I can think of would be a very slow corner prior to a very long straight where the advantage would overcome the initial sacrifice.
I would love to see data though! I don’t do time trials, just years of HPDE instructing on track and club racing. All my “data” is based on lessons I’ve learned by other drivers schooling me as they smash my “ideal line” and I witness them do “impossible” things 😂
@@KindredAutomotive very cool experience. I'm very data focused now, cuz it don't like. Also over time I've seen a lot of very reputable people explain things that are just flat out wrong. That's when I realised a lot of people who can do it (drive well) don't know what's actually going on. And thus a large reason for this channel.
Great video! I would love to know more heel-toe shifting and benefits? How widely is it used in motor sports? Thank you again.
Thanks! Heal-toe is a technique used to match the engines speed difference when we downshift. If we don't, the engine will be spinning a lot 'slower' than the drive wheels, and when the clutch engages, it's going to try and reconcile the difference, and force your drive wheels to suddenly spin a lot slower. That's basically like suddenly applying a lot of brake, only to the drive wheels, which will cause a sudden loss of grip on that axle(s).
Heal-toe isn't so common nowadays, because many cars are paddle shift in motorsports. Even when it's not, many modern cars have autoblip. EV's don't even have gearboxes. IMO it's quite unessential to learn it nowadays, but back then, it was a skill we all had to be very well-trained in. If a driver is doing performance driving in a full manual car though, I would say it is a must-know/must-improve skill.
@@LastTenth thank you for the great advice.
@@LastTenth About the subject of paddle shifters, this is really a great development in modern cars. But what should follow (for cars that are going to be used on race tracks), is a brake pedal that is placed on the LEFT, not in the center like all cars have. This would allow (with a bit of practice) to modulate brake/ throttle simultaneously during curves, to either keep engine revs up during braking, or affect the yaw attitude of the car. Our left foot has historically never been used to its potential, serving only as a On-Off clutch switch for manual cars. Another thing that could certainly help is a foot brace for the heels, on the floor just before the throttle pedal and the brake pedal. This would steady the driver's feet and allow a much more precise application of pressure on the pedals when the going gets rough.
@@altair7001I think the trouble is, by moving the brake pedal away from the throttle on a production car, it makes it difficult for drivers who don't LFB, which is 99.9999% of buyers, and it may potentially create liability issues (not fact-checked). Not disagreeing with you; just saying the decision makers have other motivations. For a full out race-only car, then yeah that makes a lot of sense for LFB-ers.
@@LastTenth In fact, the left brake pedal could be an option on new cars.😉 I'm presently practicing left foot braking with my NC Miata but ideally the pedal would need to be moved to the left. I acquired the taste when I was Kart racing, years ago.
As a data scientist and a sim racer, i find this very refreshing to see! You earn a sub!
Now how does trail braking affecting this technique?
I imagine that you trail brake as much as possible to reduce braking reference point! Before the apex, you transition from brake to some throttle with your technique and then smoothly accelerate out?
Therefore trail braking + your technique here will be optimum to maximizing the available grip for fastest time and also give the most balance for the car?
Of course this is assuming regular corners and not fast corners where it would require no trail brake.
Hey thanks for the sub!
It's a really good question and I'd love to see you ask in on my Q&A section on my discord server. But here's a short answer...
In a max-attach hotlap, our goal at entry is to maximize grip usage and reduce radius (and hence speed), so that we arrive at the ideal apex. So trail braking is just the tool for drivers to manage that speed whilst reducing radius, just like exit-throttle. But we change the brake pressure, the amount of available 'grip' for turning changes, as does the available 'grip' at each axle, affecting balance, which potentially further limits available turning 'grip' - for example a car in under/oversteer is going to have less turning capability than the same car in neutral steer.
Conceptually, fast corners are the same - any corner is really the same for the most part. In fast corners, you might not need to use the brake to reduce speed, it may be just a lift and reduce speed with drag/scrub/drivetrainloss etc., but it doesn't change that all you're doing is managing your speed to change with the turning radius to keep the car at grip limit. Only the tool you used to manage that speed at entry is different.
@@LastTenth Wait so, is trail braking good or bad to combine with your technique?
Trail braking moves the weight to the front tire so you have more available grip in front to turn better. Meanwhile, you can brake a tiny bit later with it because of more braking near cornering.
I mentioned fast corners are different in the context of trail braking. You slow down but you dont typically trail brake like in a typical corner. May be you lightly brake and turn but that is not the same like you would roll off trail brake from a long distance.
Ultimately, it seems like the final goal is optimizing all available grip from all 4 tires to have maximum possible entry, mid and exit speed, isnt it?
What is your discord?
@@mr_smilegaming8842 IMO, I don't think the goal of trail braking is to move weight forward, that is just an unavoidable by-product. To me, the purpose of trail braking is to decelerate the car during turn in. If not, one of two things happens, we have to overslow at turn in (which as you eluded to, will require earlier braking), or the car won't be able to reduce it's turning radius to hit the apex. So I think trail braking is a crucial technique, regardless of what technique is used on the throttle.
And yes, one of the goals is to maximize grip utilization of the tires through the entire corner, and an extension to that is to maximize the grip potential of the car. I talk about it in this video: 3 MUST KNOWS for lower lap times ua-cam.com/video/ESZ0kA80RmU/v-deo.html.
you can find my discord by going to discord.LastTenth.com
All this is, is just trading speed in or speed out, fast in slow out / slow in fast out or a balance of the 2 depending on many other factors, there's no technique set in stone, so you're wrong and right.
Not really... There is an optimal time to accelerate (at min radius), and thus an optimal time to get on the throttle. Trading one for the other would imply that either one of both is suboptimal - leading to used grip in the entry or exit.
As commonly used as those terms are, slow in fast out / fast in slow out, if I try to break down what it actually means, I find that they don't actually mean anything to me. Maybe it's just me.
@@LastTenth Well no racing driver I know uses mathematical calculations whilst racing in order to get the fastest speed out of corner, it isn't realistic! The fastest way around a bend is in a straight line! I.e the shortest distance at the optimum speed gauged by your choice of braking points using your preferred reference point to turn in but just one bend doesn't mean the whole sector is quicker nor the whole lap, so keep that in mind!
@@Rapid_GT Thanks for pointing it out. Right! Nobody does math while driving, and we don't need to. Even when we practice we don't need to do math. Math is just what we need to validate what our technique should be, and practice is to internalize that technique - we can't escape the laws of physics after all.
An optimal line through a corner, that is homogenous (in grip etc) throughout, has *an* optimal braking point, turn in, apex etc. which is largely dictated by the characteristics of the car in a given set of conditions such as weather. Ie there is a specific place we need to brake at, turn in at, apex at, etc.; driver preference doesn't factor into what's optimal 99% of the time. It only factors into whether the driver has the technique to achieve this optimal line. Arguably, corners aren't homogenous, but they are typically close enough. And even if they're not, it just means the optimal line will be different, but it's still pretty much singular.
tl;dr - a driver's choice or preference does not factor into what the fastest way around the corner is.
Sector times are a combination of corners (incl compound corners) and the proceeding straights. If we can complete a corner and the proceeding straight, in isolation, as quick as possible, we will have the lowest sector time. And to do so, we require the 3 things I outlined in my previous video. To achieve those things, we need understand and execute what's described in this video, which btw, does not require doing math.
@@LastTenth I don't think there's an optimal braking point, purely because if you nail one corner you carry more speed onto the straight and into the next corner, and depending on the car and all its attributes that "optimal" braking point would alter.
I'm from dirt oval racing so.... definitely a bad habit of mine to try and force road cars to rotate with the throttle
My limited experience I have with loose surfaces was some rallying and snow track days decades ago, and I don't remember using the throttle to rotate the car (not that I'm an expert on that or anything). Generally I'd say when exiting the corner, we'd want to increase speed and turning radius, which reduces rotation. So the whole idea of rotating the car with the throttle seems incorrect to me.
@LastTenth Yeah it's a rwd loose rear end style car oval exclusive. It's the only way to get dirt oval cars through the corner, the brakes are just for manipulating your weight and entry too. Pavement oval cars also can use the throttle to rotate if the front is tractioned up enough
I have a question, for using trail braking some say trail all the way to apex, the accelerate, but then here you say to have balancing throttle to be faster. I am confused as to to where I should stop trail braking and use throttle?
Well assuming we don't dual pedal or coast (which we shouldn't 99% of the time), to get on the throttle, you have to get off the brake. So basically where you start your throttle, as described in the video, is when you should stop trail braking.
@@LastTenth Thank you so much, this simple explanation and simple mistake honestly made a large difference in my driving.
It’s my vision to bring Sim racers to the track! I’m not a professional by any means but I love racing and I believe sim racing could be a path to the real track and should be!
I think that's awesome. What's your approach to accomplish that?
Funny enough, I went the other way... 😂
@@LastTenth you know that’s a good question… lol. I do think step one is building the community and connecting with as many sun racers as I can. Step to would be the hard part. I know there have been interest with other RL racers who have stated they believe there is a lot more talent in the world then the world gets to see because of how hard it is to get into motor sports and the cost.
@@EverythingSim Maybe do a special HPDE focused for sim racers.
@@LastTenth I like this idea!
I've watched this video 3 times ... Can someone explain it to me like I'm 5 years old. LOL
It appears I have failed... 😞
@@LastTenth You haven't failed bro. It's me. I will watch it again till my brain computes
@@richardople feel free to keep watching though, as many times as you'd like... 😁
I like to let go off the throttle,steer the car as hard as I can,and when I have pointed the car where it wants to go,I just foor the gas pedal (in dirt rally).
I managed to enter top 100 players in the world.with this type of driving.
It considered slow,because the car is not at any type of grip,it's sliding around,and it's at redline,but what I guess happens is that I don't waste time braking where I can simply be going fast,and at the same time being in high rpm while sliding I don't lose any momentum and power,so technically I just enter a bit faster,but I manage to keep control of my car and I end up being really fast into an exit ,because although this may be true for one corner,usually after one corner there is another...I will try your technique on asplaht roads.usually in real life I drive in the mountains the way you say.i try to not brake in the hill climb,rather use the steering to lose momentum and speed,and when I'm okay I smash the throttle So I can clear the corner.the problem is that sometimes my car doesn't have enough power and the simulator and my car have nothing in common.so I try not to get too much into the theory behind this
What sim do you use? In AC, you can mod a car to the specs of your IRL car. That's what I did.
@@LastTenth I have used a thrust master ,in asetto Corsa when I used to drive a Miata from 1995...now I drive a Peugeot 106 and it's still weird to me driving a fwd car when I had 6 years behind my driving of a RWD Miata,and going go cart racing
@@egeayvala1799 I'd say try and see if you can create your car in AC. It's been 15-20 years since I've driven anything but RWD, I don't think I remember what that's like... lol
is that slow double right hander at canadian motorsport as difficult irl as it is in iracing?
You mean T5? It kind of is, but different. In iRacing, usually a mistake is overcooking it and going wide out of 5a and into the grass/gravel and maybe into the wall. IRL everybody is very aware of the consequences of going in too fast, so most tend to overslow, and that's why they need to add throttle coming out of 5a, even though that hole section is paved now.
You said, you are producing so little torque your differential stays locked, what type of differential? A clutch pack will lock more with torque.
It varies with car, so I was speaking in general terms. But it's good you bring it up because when I was editing the video I realized what I said was quite imprecise. What I wanted to say was, with so little torque and a locked diff, the inside rear wheel isn't spinning (enough) so the car just understeers. I didn't mean it as there's little torque so the diff stays locked, because that wouldn't make sense...
Is this mutually exclusive with trail braking?
Think of trail braking as the twin. It's basically a tool for you to manage the deceleration, like how the throttle is used to manage acceleration in this video, but bearing in mind that both affect the balance of the car which in reality affects overall grip.
Isnt it only true in case of a symmetrical racing line?
In case of a U turn, the radius of the racing line gets to it's minimum before the apex.
Not really. The racing line is almost never symmetric, regardless of the turning degrees in a corner - we're almost always going to have more braking capabilities than accelerating abilities. For corners with homogeneous grip and uniform wideness ("plain-vanilla" corners), whether they're 30 degres or 180 degrees or more, the min radius is typically going to be at the apex, which is usually not very far off from the half way mark of the corner. If the min radius happens before the apex, what likely going to happen is that grip won't be fully utilized during the exit, or if it is, the full track won't be fully utilized, or both.
There's also the conversation about exerting force in the ideal direction (exit) and double apexes. They're interlinked but it's a whole new topic.
How about rental karting with this technique? Is it good? ☺️
The principle applies in the same way.
@@LastTenth thank you so much
awesome video, awesome content, subb'd
Thanks for the sub!
Damn I thought this was a tutorial for my shitty ass Peugeot 307 2005 to help it accelerate faster on the regular streets
I have a video for that too!
When to Shift Gears for MAX Acceleration - ua-cam.com/video/bW1ynAoaBk0/v-deo.html
As far as i know, and from experience, you can't use the same methods on all corners. Every corner is kinda unique so you first have to run a couple of laps to understand the line and therefore adjust every corner with every lap. Also, not every apex in on the inside of the corner. All in all it's just practice
Yes every corner is going to be different, which is why I generally refer to a "plain vanilla" corner as baseline and it covers a LARGE majority of corners because even when corners deviate from that, the nuances are really small.
as long as you have grip and dont go out of tarmac you push throtle to the max simple 😉
I wish it were that simple.
@@braun987 actually it is 🤷🏻♂️
@@mociczyczkiIn the video is example where a driver has grip, gets on full throttle really early, but is slower. The hard part is how to keep it so that you're always on the verge of not having more grip, and when that is achieved, there is only a very small window at which you can initiate throttle.
@@LastTenth i know cos you show egzample when driver slows to much before corner 😉 im write about situation when everywhere vehicle is on grip limit at deceleration phase and all other phase 😉👍🏻
@@mociczyczki That's the point, you can't stay at grip limit, get on the throttle 'early', and still stay on the tarmac when you exit.
If a driver is on the grip limit through the entire corner, there is only ONE spot at which the driver can initiate throttle. Finding that one spot is not simple to many people.
So getting on the throttle early is wrong but getting on the throttle early and calling it "maintenance throttle" is right because of your little video?
hmmmmm……….well, yea.
Ive listened to this 4 times and I still dont hear the right answer😂😂😂 , okay accelerate at the apex but throttle before apex so you are accerating at the apex.. but not so early youre accerating before.
this seems like a vague over view. Your car stops faster then it accelerates. with few acceptations on exotics. A proper turn should trail break in then maintenance throttle mid Vehicle rotation of the turn not track layout. then role on the throttle as the steering wheel opens. The line should be a late apex of the track allowing throttle before the track Apex.
Yes, that does sound kinda vague. Thanks for sharing.
I am partial to the John Rhodes method of driving a Mini. Break loose the rear wheels then control balance and direction with the throttle. Basically the front wheel drive version of a four wheel drift of yesteryear.
ua-cam.com/video/7FWP_pEaBXo/v-deo.html
That's an awesome clip!
I think you, or maybe me, misunderstand the saying. Getting on the throttle as soon as possible means limiting the amount of time off throttle. If you spend 90% of a lap at full throttle, you will be faster than 80% at full throttle, cause if you not on the gas, your on the breaks. If you are breaking too soon for a corner, then you are not on the throttle soon enough, cause you spent more time breaking, and thus, more time in the corner. If you are driving the correct limit for your car, you should be breaking as late as possible, turning in as late as possible, pulling the wheel out of the corner at that earliest point, and thus, picking up the throttle as soon as possible. Based on your understanding, you were indeed taught wrong.
Through my coaching, I've seen a lot of instances where a lap with (substantially) less time-in-full-throttle and less throttle volume, was faster than another lap with more time-in-full-throttle and more throttle volume. The difference was was due to the (same) driver being able to use more of the car's grip, for longer. So contrary to common belief, more time-on-throttle isn't a predictor of good lap times.
@@LastTenth Depends on the car, in something with low power, keeping your minimum speed up as high as you can will always be faster. In a car with serious power and grip, the more time you can find at full throttle, the faster you will be. flatten out corners as much as you possibly can, breaking later, pre-loading suspension, managing slip angle to reduce tyre temps, are all done to help you keep your minimum speed as high as you can, but if you are not also testing the throttle to maximize exit speeds, you are simply leaving time on the table. On a super technical circuit, or in a low power car, you will not lose as much. But in a high power car, or on a track with longer flat out sections, you are easily going to leave 1/10ths on the table. You wanna teach people how to shave time, teach them about suspension pre-loading, that is one of the least talked about concepts I have seen on youtube, and mastering that concept is the difference between really good drivers, and the best in the world. You wanna know how powerful it is, its on full display in the 2023 F1 series, just watch max and sergio, watch how they start their corner entries, Max is a master of pre-loading, and sergio is not, and the results speaking for themselves.
@@cylejh It's just a general statement. I've seen that happen in low powered cars, I've seen it in high powered cars; more time-on-throttle doesn't necessarily equate faster lap times. The key is to always maximize grip usage.
Nice work on the physics, but I'm struggling to see how this style of instruction helps anyone get faster.
Thanks! The lesson here is - if the min speed is not at the min radius (for most corners), which should typically be at the apex, then the corner was not driven optimally.
This can be helpful to guide drivers to the right throttle application and speed management - there's a window where throttle should be initiated. To determine precisely where the initial throttle needs to be, this knowledge in this video needs to be used in conjunction with other techniques. This is one piece of the puzzle, but a crucial piece
Nothing new here. Basically if you are not on the throttle you’re on the brakes and vice versa. If you are coasting through a corner you came in to fast and are trying to bleed off speed with multiple forms of friction. Good video but you could have started with this statement and then gone into the tech stuff.
There's not really a perfect answer here, the pedals help turn the car as much as the steering wheel does, use the brake and throttle to turn the car.
In a perfect lap there are fixed rules, in a race you rarely ever have a perfect lap.
Yes, in a race, things are never perfect, but we still need to know the fundamentals of what 'perfect' is, otherwise we won't know what we need to do to improve. And pedals do in fact influence rotation, but they are the only tool that effectively influences speed.
@@LastTenth also depends on the traction, the design of the race.
1970s muscle vs modern aero, totally different styles. When lacking aero I find a touch of oversteer helps dramatically, just enough to turn the car. Takes a bit of tuning to get the car to match the driver. Not sure how often that really happens in modern racing.
@@glenwaldrop8166Yeah tires back then benefitted from really large slip angles from what I saw.
This guy should be a politican^^ How can you talk so importantly much about braking on the limit and carrying as much speed as possible? 😄How about "Just be on the limit at any time" or "midturn speed = exit speed" and "the later you brake the longer you're quick"? And "later apex when exit speed doesn't matter"/"Earlier apex when exit speed or positioning is important" isn't even covered in this... I mean who doesn't have the comon knowledge for that and who can't switch on his delta indicator? What's your Irating if i may ask? Becasue that's not about the last 0.1, but about the last 2,5 sec. The last 0.3 would be about how much of the track can you use on turning and how quick can you turn in without losing the rear and having an exact rotation, all in order to drive the biggest possible radius and midturn speed at any time, with the best turn to straightline transition (what would be the last 0.1)..
If I run for office, will you vote for me🏃♂?
@@LastTenth I propably would, due to missing of better options^^
@@andreashofer4442awww you think I'm the best option, how sweet of you!
@@LastTenth calm down, i meant better than Putin or Trump^^
WTF. "Early throttle doesn't equal faster exit" and your proof this is wrong, is applying full throttle at the start of a corner...? And then you prove through the video that actually, yes, applying early throttle is the king?
What kind of TechBro scam contradictory talk for the sake of talking is this?
5:30 "Producing so little torque the diff stays locked"? What kind of backwards engineered car are you driving? Diffs get locked from torque difference between wheels, not from engine produced torque. The diff is pretty open under small acceleration as long as the inside tire keeps grip and locks depending on load difference on tires, aka. when inside loses grip.
Who taught you about cars? Guides in tuning menus of codemasters games?
I am sorry for being so harsh. I watched your other videos and you do know your stuff. But this video is just a compilation of clickbait and misleading talk.
Well, you're not wrong about the diff. In a reply to another comment about that comment yesterday, I said when I was editing the video I had noticed that I misspoke. What I meant to say was that when the diff is locked (under preload) and the torque is so low that the inside tire won't spin (enough), the car understeers. That said, diffs can get locked from drivetrain torque, so you're wrong there.
As for the rest of it, not sure what logic you're using there, but you're welcome to whatever opinion that makes you feel happy about yourself.