So, in summary, the key factor is the range difference. In a straight-up fight, discounting finding cover that blocks LoS, the Vanquisher Russ is significantly better because it can turtle, First Fire and gains first an entire round of unanswered fire and then a second round where the Vanquisher Russ has dominant firepower. In effect, the Vanquisher Russ is currently the supreme points for value Anti-Tank armoured platform, you cannot stand them off and engage in a tank duel because you'll lose (barring huge luck swings). As you identify, you need to stalk them, hit them sideways, make them move, and press the "need to be in command" advantage. The Kratos is a much more flexible weapons platform, if you play into that flexibility you seize the advantage, if you allow the Leman Russ player to dictate the confrontation you do not - that is the essence of a good game.
@@BattleWagon2467 This extends across the two armies that are (to date) available. Marines are super flexible. Auxila hit a metric ton harder, but they are more ponderous and predictable. This is highlighted by the Assault Marines vs Auxila melee-specialists (Ogryns and Veletaris) debate. Many folks assume Assault Marines are the creme-de-le-creme of melee, but then are stunned by how much the Auxila specialists overmatch them. Assault Marines are cheaper than Ogryns (by 20pts) and Veletaris (by 10pts), they are base move 2" faster and ignore obstacles on movement, and they have superior morale and armour saves. Assault Marines are not meant to take on the Ogryns and Veletari, they are meant to fence with and distract them into a fruitless chase, while the Marines eliminate softer targets. At the Epic-LI scale, the Marines (thus far) are not the sledgehammer shock troops (most people) expect but the superbly trained, equipped, and flexible special forces. History demonstrates how good elite troops are when they deploy with initiative, confusion, and chaos against regular forces (D-Day airborne landings), it also demonstrates what happens when these elite troops are confined to a grind-out brawl with regular forces that have heavier firepower and the means to deploy it (Market Garden airborne battles). The Marines across the list are about the surgical application of specialists with flexibility and resilience to adjust. The Auxila are focused on a sledgehammer approach where they want to dictate the place of engagement and bring their overwhelming firepower into play. This is exactly what the Kratos vs Vanquisher Russ comparison demonstrates - the Kratos is (potentially) a more flexible and robust platform and it can cause trouble across the field, it simply needs to avoid getting into a blow-for-blow exchange with the more specialised and lethal (AT-wise) Vanquisher Russ. However, drop some Assault Marines on those Russ and watch them vanish, while a couple of Kratos will chop up some Ogryns or Veletaris at range (either as they duck across open ground or through demolishing an emplacement they are defending).
Nice analysis. I orginally had 8 leman russ vanguishers and 6 kratos in my list, however when looking at the points of larger squadrons I dedicded to have 2 units of kratos. I originally had 8 leman russes (335 points) and 6 kratos (350), very similar points because the kratos gets bigger points discounts for a larger squadron. I therefore went for 2 units of 6 kratos. I was going to go with battlecannon and all lascannons, but watching your video I may go with one squadron having battlecannon and all autocannon. The main thing I didn't like with the vanguisher is that to take advantage of its range its only firing the one shot per vehicle. Combined with the changing points efficency when you increase to 350 points squadrons is what tipped me over to the kratos side. Plus its a lovely looking model :)
Interesting analysis, what I love about this game is the nature of combined arms will mean there will be lots of ways to bate and tackle units with drop pods, aircraft and speeders but these 1-on-1 comparisons are interesting to understand.
With GW, you don't have to worry about that :) But its good to know, what kind of will drop next with the next releases. Drop pods and bikes will be nice to get more manoeuvrability on to the battlefield@@BattleWagon2467
Thank you for thr feedback; an official mic has been ordered. Making videos was not something I intended to do to this extent. I am also sick, so that didn't help.
Interesting analysis. My only comment would be that the game is won by getting to and controlling objectives not destroying your opponent's units. Investing too much in long range firepower and air support could leave you disadvantaged.
So, in summary, the key factor is the range difference. In a straight-up fight, discounting finding cover that blocks LoS, the Vanquisher Russ is significantly better because it can turtle, First Fire and gains first an entire round of unanswered fire and then a second round where the Vanquisher Russ has dominant firepower. In effect, the Vanquisher Russ is currently the supreme points for value Anti-Tank armoured platform, you cannot stand them off and engage in a tank duel because you'll lose (barring huge luck swings). As you identify, you need to stalk them, hit them sideways, make them move, and press the "need to be in command" advantage. The Kratos is a much more flexible weapons platform, if you play into that flexibility you seize the advantage, if you allow the Leman Russ player to dictate the confrontation you do not - that is the essence of a good game.
I do like that units have identity, rather than just being same-same.
@@BattleWagon2467 This extends across the two armies that are (to date) available. Marines are super flexible. Auxila hit a metric ton harder, but they are more ponderous and predictable. This is highlighted by the Assault Marines vs Auxila melee-specialists (Ogryns and Veletaris) debate. Many folks assume Assault Marines are the creme-de-le-creme of melee, but then are stunned by how much the Auxila specialists overmatch them. Assault Marines are cheaper than Ogryns (by 20pts) and Veletaris (by 10pts), they are base move 2" faster and ignore obstacles on movement, and they have superior morale and armour saves. Assault Marines are not meant to take on the Ogryns and Veletari, they are meant to fence with and distract them into a fruitless chase, while the Marines eliminate softer targets. At the Epic-LI scale, the Marines (thus far) are not the sledgehammer shock troops (most people) expect but the superbly trained, equipped, and flexible special forces. History demonstrates how good elite troops are when they deploy with initiative, confusion, and chaos against regular forces (D-Day airborne landings), it also demonstrates what happens when these elite troops are confined to a grind-out brawl with regular forces that have heavier firepower and the means to deploy it (Market Garden airborne battles). The Marines across the list are about the surgical application of specialists with flexibility and resilience to adjust. The Auxila are focused on a sledgehammer approach where they want to dictate the place of engagement and bring their overwhelming firepower into play. This is exactly what the Kratos vs Vanquisher Russ comparison demonstrates - the Kratos is (potentially) a more flexible and robust platform and it can cause trouble across the field, it simply needs to avoid getting into a blow-for-blow exchange with the more specialised and lethal (AT-wise) Vanquisher Russ. However, drop some Assault Marines on those Russ and watch them vanish, while a couple of Kratos will chop up some Ogryns or Veletaris at range (either as they duck across open ground or through demolishing an emplacement they are defending).
@@cyberdan42 - Well said. I am hoping LI gets the attention of GW's mainline games. Looking forward to Astartes LoW, lol.
Let the Missiles fly.
- HQ: Legion Command Squad (1), 25pts
- Core: Legion Tactical Detachment (12), 95pts
8 Additional Heavy Support
- Core: Legion Tactical Detachment (12), 95pts
8 Additional Heavy Support
- Support: Legion Missile Launcher Support Detachment (8), 70pts
4 Additional Legionaries
Optional:
- Core: Legion Tactical Detachment (12), 95pts
8 Additional Heavy Support
- Support: Legion Missile Launcher Support Detachment (8), 70pts
4 Additional Legionaries
- Support: Legion Missile Launcher Support Detachment (8), 70pts
4 Additional Legionaries
- Bastion: Legion Tarantula Battery (4), 36pts
Nice analysis. I orginally had 8 leman russ vanguishers and 6 kratos in my list, however when looking at the points of larger squadrons I dedicded to have 2 units of kratos. I originally had 8 leman russes (335 points) and 6 kratos (350), very similar points because the kratos gets bigger points discounts for a larger squadron. I therefore went for 2 units of 6 kratos.
I was going to go with battlecannon and all lascannons, but watching your video I may go with one squadron having battlecannon and all autocannon.
The main thing I didn't like with the vanguisher is that to take advantage of its range its only firing the one shot per vehicle. Combined with the changing points efficency when you increase to 350 points squadrons is what tipped me over to the kratos side. Plus its a lovely looking model :)
Interesting analysis, what I love about this game is the nature of combined arms will mean there will be lots of ways to bate and tackle units with drop pods, aircraft and speeders but these 1-on-1 comparisons are interesting to understand.
I look forward to new units; I just hope they aren't released too frequently.
With GW, you don't have to worry about that :) But its good to know, what kind of will drop next with the next releases. Drop pods and bikes will be nice to get more manoeuvrability on to the battlefield@@BattleWagon2467
Can you do a video comparing all the different Leman Russ variants please?
The math is good. But your presentation could be vastly improved with an better sound. Its a bit chopped.
Thank you for thr feedback; an official mic has been ordered. Making videos was not something I intended to do to this extent. I am also sick, so that didn't help.
Interesting analysis. My only comment would be that the game is won by getting to and controlling objectives not destroying your opponent's units.
Investing too much in long range firepower and air support could leave you disadvantaged.
That is a great takeaway!
04:37 you show basalics not leman russes
Well, thanks for the heads up. Please pardon my ignorance; admittedly this is my very first foray into anything GW.