You folks have communicated some serious knowledge lately, thanks for that! I earn my bread with video production but since I don't have a classical education, there's still so much to learn, quite humbling really.
Obviously, most people aren't going to run out and buy a set of Tiffen NAT filters. The less expensive option (though good ones are still expensive) is to get a stand-alone IR cut filter to use with regular ND filters. One issue you'll see when looking for "IR filters" is that there are "IR cut filters" (which is what we are talking about here) and there are "IR photography filters." Filters for IR photography are the opposite of what you want - they cut visible light and only let through a specific wavelength of IR light. (IR photography is a really cool effect! But not useful for everyday shooting.) Once you're aware of the distinction, it will be pretty obvious which filters are "IR cut" versus "for IR photography."
I first saw this problem of color shifts when using strong NDs at Tom Antos's channel. I almost forgot about IR polution and was about to get some new NDs. Thanks Indy Mogul!
This was a really interesting subject that I'm glad you guys talked about, as it shows some of the sort of work that camera crews and operators need to go through for both small indie films and big blockbusters to get a quality base product before going in and doing editing and other work in Post.
@@arianadiego3709 They all have Infrared filters unless they were removed with a custom modification. That doesn't mean they all filter 100% infrared light. It depends on the quality of the filter coating. If it didn't have an infrared filter, your colors would be seriously messed up. The only cameras that do not have an infrared filter are night vision goggles, binoculars, and scopes. Even the Sony NightShot Camcorders have an IR filter, but when you turn on the NightShot it slides the filter out of the way.
@@arianadiego3709 No problem man. I know about this subject because I do paranormal photography and filmmaking. I get the filters removed from my cameras to capture infrared and ultraviolet light, since a lot of the times energy from ghosts only shows up on one or both of these wavelengths. When I want to use the cameras normally I screw on an IR/UV filter over the lens to block those frequencies. You can buy these lens filters from lifepixel.com
Ran into this issue late 2019. The cinematographer was shooting on Amira and forgot to put in an IR filter, outdoor on a very sunny day. Grading the footage so that black products would look black and not violet red was a real pain for both of us.
Had this exact issue on a recent shoot I worked on. They thankfully saw their mistake about a half-day in but were unable to reshoot. Final cut has a handful of unfortunately polluted shots. Test you cameras, your filters, your lights. Test everything!
"'Fix it in Post' is the dirtiest phrase invented by man..." TRUTH!! Get it right in camera! Richard Crudo - a trustworthy mentor! Thanks for sharing your expertise! Nice segment y'all.
I'd save your breath. These old union/guild curmudgeons don't want to learn anything new after they've already "put in their time". They know everything in the world already.
This raised a major question for me which is why does he prefer matte boxes to internal NDs? I support the idea of just shooting film to fix this but I am very biased...it’s all I use for stills and I can’t wait to start with motion picture :-)
This explains why the old Sony F series from early 2000s of digital cameras had a green tinting issue. They had an imbedded IR sensor too. They forgot the ND filter.
So should we trust the internal NDs within the alexa mini? Cause in my country if we wanna do a test before the shoot we will have to pay the rental company in order to do a test.
This is informative but I feel like some of the b-roll didn't make sense. I couldn't tell if it was supposed to illustrate an example of IR pollution in a specific instance, or if it was for dramatic effect
Yeah. I stupidly bought myself a bmpcc 6k. Its so frustrating that images shot inside have these problem and images with nd. The image is destroyed. I have to buy so many things just to get tha cam work properly. Gymbal, cage, battery, ir cut. That add up so quickly.
Is this problem mainly an issue only when using ND filters on the BMPCC or is it also a big issue without them? Should I get an IR cut filter for my BMPCC and just leave it on all the time?
iirc the earth does not receive a lot of infrared light from the sun in comparison to the visible spectrum. However, things on planet earth will absorb shortwave radiation and reradiate it as infrared (which is probably why they mentioned seeing infra red on cloudy days). All things radiate electromagnetic radiation, and the usual temperature of the earth puts it in the infrared spectrum. I don't really know how sensitive cameras are for this, but letting you know that theres no escaping it.
depends! It could be a lot of things. But most likely not -- the IR shift tends to be more visible as a maroon/red shift in the blacks. The shift to green is more likely because the ND is not cutting across the light spectrum equally. It's cutting less green light, which shifts the final image to look more green.
Had to correct an outdoor shoot out scene with a bunch of guys in paramilitary gear. One angle they were fine, the other they looked like a bunch of grapes. Nearly lost my mind keying and masking what should’ve been a copy and paste job...
do you know what is worse than an infra red in tve shot?... A microphone in the face 😜. (Love ya... Own a120d Mark II) but please lower the mics. Thank you
Great video and I learned a lot. But the bass on your voice was so much overkill it just sounds unnatural. IMO. Why nit capture voice as naturally as you try to capture video ?
I can't cite a specific manufacturer spec, but in my experience, I've had severe IR color shift with my BMPCC and normal ND filters, but I've never had that problem on my GH5 when using ND filters without additional IR cut. Best to test yourself. Black cotton clothes (t-shirts, sweatshirts, etc.) in direct sunlight tend to show IR pollution the worst. Set up a test shot like you see here, and keep adding ND while adjusting exposure. If the black fabric shows color shift as the ND gets stronger, you should re-test with an IR cut filter.
If you want to see just how much infrared light is hitting your sensor -- this is actually a really trippy solution to see it on RED cameras. This + your phone's Face Unlock function is pretty crazy to look at. www.kippertie.com/kt/product/full-spectrum-zero-lowpass-filter-for-dragon/
Fix it in Post is a phrase that's hated for a reason... BUT... While I try to get as much as I can in-camera, it does help to have the flexibility to do what you need to do in post. Sometimes it can be important to relax and remember that things can be fixed in post if trying to get it in camera is killing your time and brain cells on set.
Where are all the people that were bragging about BMPCC4K's low price in comparison to its competitors (GH5, A7III etc)? It does have the best image quality in its class, but the cost doubles instantly because of the gear it demands to be used efficiently (monitor, SSD, batteries, EXPENSIVE ND Filters, very powerful PC etc).
if you want to see if your camera sees IR light, point your TV remote at it, and press a button. If you see the LED in the remote flash, you're seeing IR.
Not quite how that test works, I can see why you'd think it does though. In reality even with an IR filter on the camera, if you point an IR light directly at the camera it will still pick up the light. Beyond that though, most smart tvs made in the last 5 -8 years don't use IR due to it's simplistic nature and lag. So for many people there is no IR blaster on the remote to begin with.
NO. WRONG. Even thou IR light exists and digital sensors ate very sensible to it, basically all digital cameras have an IR filter. Ask any IR photographer and you'll know how hard it is to do IR photography on digital cameras, including quimicly or fisically having to remove said IR filter. The examples are most likely from the use of NDs filters, which usually affect color rendition, and not an IR filter. YOU DON'T NEED AN IR FILTER. Anyway, its easy to prove by yourself with your camera, so do the tests and see.
Not everyone has the time to use solid Nds, it’s not about laziness. If you are filing narrative them absolutely. But us run and gun doc and live events shooter will miss shots by changing filters out all the time.
@@kprox1994 rent. Slapping on a regular ND does not take up too much time. Remember, people shot documentaries on film where they'd have to swap out the reel of film. People can change an ND filter if they can change lenses, batteries and cards. Thats the problem with digital. We get too accommodated with the luxuries, t hen cant imagine how things were done before.
Yes, "just shoot film", thanks Mr. Elitist! Because filmmaking should be reserved for those who can pay 100's-of-thousands of dollars and go through your commissar door-holding guilds. Just like the good 'ol days, right? Why would you want any of these great affordable camera that can be operated by a crew of only a few people? We all know it's not "real filmmaking" unless you hold studios hostage and use union bully tactics to make sure 12 of your friends are being paid $2500 a day to do a 1 person job.
I had no idea I needed to consider this. Thanks guys
A brilliant video! Love Richard, looks like a totally no B.S. guy. *Next week, a bazillion channels post how to remove infrared in post.* 😀
Kevin - The Basic Filmmaker
this might turn into a new subject for content creators...it would be something fresh. 😋😋😋
haha, honestly? I would love to see these tutorials!
Ted Sim Hmmmmm.... 😁
Instablaster
You folks have communicated some serious knowledge lately, thanks for that! I earn my bread with video production but since I don't have a classical education, there's still so much to learn, quite humbling really.
Obviously, most people aren't going to run out and buy a set of Tiffen NAT filters. The less expensive option (though good ones are still expensive) is to get a stand-alone IR cut filter to use with regular ND filters. One issue you'll see when looking for "IR filters" is that there are "IR cut filters" (which is what we are talking about here) and there are "IR photography filters." Filters for IR photography are the opposite of what you want - they cut visible light and only let through a specific wavelength of IR light. (IR photography is a really cool effect! But not useful for everyday shooting.) Once you're aware of the distinction, it will be pretty obvious which filters are "IR cut" versus "for IR photography."
Do you have recommendations/links to budget friendly IR filters but day to day film work.
I first saw this problem of color shifts when using strong NDs at Tom Antos's channel.
I almost forgot about IR polution and was about to get some new NDs. Thanks Indy Mogul!
This was a really interesting subject that I'm glad you guys talked about, as it shows some of the sort of work that camera crews and operators need to go through for both small indie films and big blockbusters to get a quality base product before going in and doing editing and other work in Post.
if you point your ir remote toward your camera you will see a flash of light if the camera does not have an ir filter...
They all have IR/UV cut filters. I guess Blackmagic's just have some infrared light leak in theirs.
Starship Ghost
I tried six cameras I had right around me, and only my EOS R had a ir filter.
@@arianadiego3709 They all have Infrared filters unless they were removed with a custom modification. That doesn't mean they all filter 100% infrared light. It depends on the quality of the filter coating. If it didn't have an infrared filter, your colors would be seriously messed up. The only cameras that do not have an infrared filter are night vision goggles, binoculars, and scopes. Even the Sony NightShot Camcorders have an IR filter, but when you turn on the NightShot it slides the filter out of the way.
Magick
good to know...
I did notice that the better the camera, the more subdued the light was...
thanks for the info...😉
@@arianadiego3709 No problem man. I know about this subject because I do paranormal photography and filmmaking. I get the filters removed from my cameras to capture infrared and ultraviolet light, since a lot of the times energy from ghosts only shows up on one or both of these wavelengths. When I want to use the cameras normally I screw on an IR/UV filter over the lens to block those frequencies. You can buy these lens filters from lifepixel.com
Ran into this issue late 2019. The cinematographer was shooting on Amira and forgot to put in an IR filter, outdoor on a very sunny day. Grading the footage so that black products would look black and not violet red was a real pain for both of us.
Had this exact issue on a recent shoot I worked on. They thankfully saw their mistake about a half-day in but were unable to reshoot. Final cut has a handful of unfortunately polluted shots. Test you cameras, your filters, your lights. Test everything!
"'Fix it in Post' is the dirtiest phrase invented by man..." TRUTH!! Get it right in camera! Richard Crudo - a trustworthy mentor! Thanks for sharing your expertise! Nice segment y'all.
I watched this channel when I was a kid and I have been looking for it for years I finally found it
"Fix it in post - it's the dirtiest phrase invented by man."
© Richard Crudo
Don’t waste ur time, ur money
They are in steps of 0.3 because they are in a log scale. log(2)= 0.3 log(4)= 0.6 log (8) =0.9 and so on... Log(1/2)= -0.3 etc etc
I'd save your breath. These old union/guild curmudgeons don't want to learn anything new after they've already "put in their time". They know everything in the world already.
@@Frontigenics I see you're turning into a curmudgeon too. Try not to fall into your own trap
@@chumleyk Ughh... that almost doesn't even make sense as a response. Try again.
Marcus LaGrone
thanks for the onfo... 😉👍
NERD!
Test the natural NDs to the Polar pro and moment variable NDs!
Great video and explanation - I'll share this with my students.
The polarpro basecamp nd filters claim to have ir cut, anyone tested it? Thanks in advance!
This raised a major question for me which is why does he prefer matte boxes to internal NDs? I support the idea of just shooting film to fix this but I am very biased...it’s all I use for stills and I can’t wait to start with motion picture :-)
The NDs on my pro max 15 are causing IR pollution -Thanks for explaining what it is!!
I always knew they be lying about not needing IR cut filters. Thanks for all the great videos...
Wow, thanks for this. I own the bmpcc4k and as much as I love this camera, I knew there was something with it but I just couldn't put my finger on it!
This explains why the old Sony F series from early 2000s of digital cameras had a green tinting issue. They had an imbedded IR sensor too. They forgot the ND filter.
So should we trust the internal NDs within the alexa mini? Cause in my country if we wanna do a test before the shoot we will have to pay the rental company in order to do a test.
This is informative but I feel like some of the b-roll didn't make sense. I couldn't tell if it was supposed to illustrate an example of IR pollution in a specific instance, or if it was for dramatic effect
I was informed to color correct after putting on ND's instead of before
you shafted him on the handshake at 10:19 lololololol
Yeah. I stupidly bought myself a bmpcc 6k. Its so frustrating that images shot inside have these problem and images with nd. The image is destroyed. I have to buy so many things just to get tha cam work properly. Gymbal, cage, battery, ir cut. That add up so quickly.
Is this problem mainly an issue only when using ND filters on the BMPCC or is it also a big issue without them? Should I get an IR cut filter for my BMPCC and just leave it on all the time?
noob here. I guess this is the reason why something was bothering me in that glorious bmpcc4k colour pallet.
From Morocco I love you ♥️
Yeah, good point. Rawlite OLPF deal with it.
ND's also affect how reflected light looks.
I thought most sensors had IR filters built in??
Most DSLRs and MILC's do yes. Unless they're astro modified :)
Great episode guys, im sure the rest of the film making world will be posting this now lol
This guy reminds me of James Caan
3:50 they come in 3 by 3 for a logaritmic formula
iirc the earth does not receive a lot of infrared light from the sun in comparison to the visible spectrum. However, things on planet earth will absorb shortwave radiation and reradiate it as infrared (which is probably why they mentioned seeing infra red on cloudy days). All things radiate electromagnetic radiation, and the usual temperature of the earth puts it in the infrared spectrum. I don't really know how sensitive cameras are for this, but letting you know that theres no escaping it.
so all those reviews of nd filters shifting images to green was actually the ir?!?
depends! It could be a lot of things. But most likely not -- the IR shift tends to be more visible as a maroon/red shift in the blacks. The shift to green is more likely because the ND is not cutting across the light spectrum equally. It's cutting less green light, which shifts the final image to look more green.
Ted Sim
I was being a little sarcastic...😉
thanks for the info though...👍👍👍
Had to correct an outdoor shoot out scene with a bunch of guys in paramilitary gear. One angle they were fine, the other they looked like a bunch of grapes. Nearly lost my mind keying and masking what should’ve been a copy and paste job...
do you know what is worse than an infra red in tve shot?... A microphone in the face 😜. (Love ya... Own a120d Mark II) but please lower the mics. Thank you
Ugh yes, that mic placement bothered me the whole video 🤦♀️ wonderful info though
test :put tv or any remote an press any button in front of the phone camera to see infrared light
Great video and I learned a lot.
But the bass on your voice was so much overkill it just sounds unnatural. IMO. Why nit capture voice as naturally as you try to capture video ?
oh, thanks. i realy didnt knew that
Does anyone know if the GH5 has a IR filter ?
I can't cite a specific manufacturer spec, but in my experience, I've had severe IR color shift with my BMPCC and normal ND filters, but I've never had that problem on my GH5 when using ND filters without additional IR cut. Best to test yourself. Black cotton clothes (t-shirts, sweatshirts, etc.) in direct sunlight tend to show IR pollution the worst. Set up a test shot like you see here, and keep adding ND while adjusting exposure. If the black fabric shows color shift as the ND gets stronger, you should re-test with an IR cut filter.
Yes it does, just like almost all other DSLR/MILC's.
Well, now I'm worried 😅
Nice & Thanks :)
Richard totally looks like James Cann
Thrice!!!
If you want to see just how much infrared light is hitting your sensor -- this is actually a really trippy solution to see it on RED cameras. This + your phone's Face Unlock function is pretty crazy to look at. www.kippertie.com/kt/product/full-spectrum-zero-lowpass-filter-for-dragon/
Fix it in Post is a phrase that's hated for a reason... BUT...
While I try to get as much as I can in-camera, it does help to have the flexibility to do what you need to do in post. Sometimes it can be important to relax and remember that things can be fixed in post if trying to get it in camera is killing your time and brain cells on set.
That mike is too high and hiding your face. You should consider repositioning it.
So the solution is to buy tiffen ND? Nice.
Where are all the people that were bragging about BMPCC4K's low price in comparison to its competitors (GH5, A7III etc)? It does have the best image quality in its class, but the cost doubles instantly because of the gear it demands to be used efficiently (monitor, SSD, batteries, EXPENSIVE ND Filters, very powerful PC etc).
Wasn t the Irishman filmed washed in infrared ?
Now I feel more confused than ever.
😱😱
if you want to see if your camera sees IR light, point your TV remote at it, and press a button. If you see the LED in the remote flash, you're seeing IR.
Not quite how that test works, I can see why you'd think it does though. In reality even with an IR filter on the camera, if you point an IR light directly at the camera it will still pick up the light.
Beyond that though, most smart tvs made in the last 5 -8 years don't use IR due to it's simplistic nature and lag. So for many people there is no IR blaster on the remote to begin with.
you guys need to fix your audio, it keeps clipping
the mics block your faces
🙏🏾
I didn't know James Caan had a second identity.
Finally second here!
you gotta appreciate these moments when Ted doesn't smile. Because only then he sees
So ND filters are like Window Tint ?
Finally First here!!!!
Why is that a thing? It's just narcissism masquerading as social discourse.
I feels just lil less exciting than being the first human being to step on Mars
"Film sensors"
😍😍😍😍
We've been using IRND filters for 10 years now. Helloooo
NO. WRONG. Even thou IR light exists and digital sensors ate very sensible to it, basically all digital cameras have an IR filter. Ask any IR photographer and you'll know how hard it is to do IR photography on digital cameras, including quimicly or fisically having to remove said IR filter.
The examples are most likely from the use of NDs filters, which usually affect color rendition, and not an IR filter.
YOU DON'T NEED AN IR FILTER. Anyway, its easy to prove by yourself with your camera, so do the tests and see.
Yawn yawn. Elementary stuff. If you don’t already know this means you don’t yet own a tripod.
Stop being lazy and using variable NDs, they polarize your image unless you plan on shooting mostly at f8
Not everyone has the time to use solid Nds, it’s not about laziness. If you are filing narrative them absolutely. But us run and gun doc and live events shooter will miss shots by changing filters out all the time.
@@kprox1994 then you should be using a camera with built in NDs. Right camera, right job.
@@fourth1000 those are way more expensive dude
@@kprox1994 rent.
Slapping on a regular ND does not take up too much time. Remember, people shot documentaries on film where they'd have to swap out the reel of film.
People can change an ND filter if they can change lenses, batteries and cards.
Thats the problem with digital. We get too accommodated with the luxuries, t hen cant imagine how things were done before.
Yes, "just shoot film", thanks Mr. Elitist! Because filmmaking should be reserved for those who can pay 100's-of-thousands of dollars and go through your commissar door-holding guilds. Just like the good 'ol days, right? Why would you want any of these great affordable camera that can be operated by a crew of only a few people? We all know it's not "real filmmaking" unless you hold studios hostage and use union bully tactics to make sure 12 of your friends are being paid $2500 a day to do a 1 person job.
It was pretty clearly a joke, my guy...
@@seangentry2943 It didn't seem like that, they didn't even mention the most affordable and best option which is to just use an IR Cut Filter.
They're measured in 3s because every stop can be sub-divided in 1/3s. So they're actually measured in 1/3s of a stop.
This is wrong, they are measured on a logarithmic scale, so log(2)=0.3; log(4)=0.6; etc.
infared light doesn't exist