Can You Determine Religious Truth Using Scientific Methods? (With Barrett Burgin)
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
- Barrett is one of the smartest and most spiritual guys I've ever met. In this video we discuss topics such as:
-Is it possible for someone to believe the LDS church is true if they close their heart off to feelings, emotions, and faith?
-If everything in the church was undoubtedly proven to be true, there would be no room for faith. Why is faith necessary?
-Why is context important when it comes to church history?
-How do the pros of living the Gospel outweigh the cons of not living the Gospel?
I love listening to Barrett. Very interesting conversation!
This is an excellent convo
at 30:11 Barrett, you're talking about how we can't trust our physical senses cause sometimes they get things wrong or interpret data incorrectly, so the way we know truth is through the spirit. So my question is, do we ever misinterpret the SPIRIT, or feel that we know something through the spirit that turns out to be untrue. I saw this as a missionary all the time when people were convinced that the spirit had told them their church was true, and here I was telling them that the spirit would tell them that OUR church was true. I believe the Spirit DOES testify of truth, but I'm not so sure about our own ability to correctly interpret the Spirit 100% of the time. I see people attribute their voting choices to the spirit all the time, and yet we vote so differently. I've spoken with friends who say that the spirit told them to leave the church, and while I tend to respect that personal revelation and see it as valid, I'm not sure everyone would agree that that comes from the spirit. I've heard testimonies in my own congregation that directly contradict my beliefs on a subject. So who's spirit is right? mine? theirs? neither? Interested in your thoughts if you see this comment :) or next time I see you and we have a few hours to get into it hahah.
I’m not sure Barrett’s thoughts on this, but I plan on making a video about this exact topic sometime. I think truth, belief, and knowledge is found through having as many witnesses testify of something as possible. If one person saw a car crash, it’s possible that may be true. If 10 people saw the same car crash, the likelihood for it to be true is exponentially higher. The 13 “witnesses” I use for determining truth are outcomes, sense data, reason/logic, authority, evidence, intuition, personal experience, personal revelation, consensus of trusted sources, observation of fruits, comparison, and reproducibility. If we depend on only one of those, it’s possible that truth can be found. But relying on all 13 and checking the box of each one is significantly more convincing that something would be true.
@@Faith_in_focusso interesting that you stated reproducibility. That’s the one thing religion can’t offer. Beliefs are all over the map. Faith is all over the map. Perspectives of god are all over the map. Religions are all over the map. Doctrinal perspectives in all religions are all over the map. This is the case in Mormonism and out. So when you say it’s reproducible I don’t know what you mean. You can’t throw a dead cat without hitting 16 buckets of examples where that doesn’t work.
@@rtharalson Reproducibility means that if a particular claim is true, it should be possible for multiple independent observers or researchers to replicate the same results or experiences when following the same procedures or conditions. This is exactly what Moroni's promise is all about.
@@Faith_in_focus Yes I am very aware of Moroni 10: 3-5. I sold that too during my mission in '95-'97. What I didn't realize in my youth was those versus have the Texas Sharp Shooter fallacy buried in it. As well as a double negative.
Also - setting aside the mormon jargon - the concept of the scriptures is used by religions across the world. People in many faiths find by the spirit that their faith / religion / god is real / true / or where they are supposed to be. I should also mention that the versus are also used by the many faction and splinter sects of mormonism.
So respectfully - it is not reproducible - as evident by so many different outcomes.
Great interview! Thank you so much for your faith!
It definitely matters if the Book of Mormon is historical because Christianity is based on the truthfulness of historical claims. This is not a modern interpretation of Christianity this is the ancient claim. It seems like he has a worldly perspective that he uses to interpret scripture.
Regarding the atonement. Jesus Christ only paid for our sins up until his second coming.
Thank you for this interview! I agree with a lot of what Barrett says and have been trying to explain to myself lol if that makes sense
Right? He phrases things in a way that just makes so much sense
What a awesome video, thank you so much..
Actually, I have pondered the question of spiritual discernment quite a bit, and for me it all started when I was a teen diving into near death experiences, noticing how even when people seemed to have encountered God directly in the afterlife, they all came back with different versions of truth. No matter where you look, whether that be regarding the believes of other people, their scriptures, their visions and dreams, their religions, all come up with different versions of truth...
For years this confused me, feeling that even the spiritual realm was a realm of confusion and deception.
But then I remembered Jesus telling us how to discern spiritual truth from deception, telling us that it is "by their fruits, that we shall know them". And not just that, but once we taste of that "good fruit", we also know without any doubt, that the "tree" (meaning the source where the information is coming from), is good also.
So I started to ponder, what actually are these good fruits?
Paul made clear that it can neither refer to good works, the faith to remove mountains, the gifts of the Spirit, the knowing and understanding of all things, the working of mighty miracles.. Why? Because all of these can be fruits brought forth even by "bads trees" , or in Paul words, because if these things are brought forth without Charity, they are worth nothing.
So I thought, ok, possibly Charity is actually the "good fruit".. but lets be real, even charity can be faked, pretendet and just appear to be charity from the outside..
After some time I realized that the only way spiritual discernment can and does work, at least how I understand it, is by how much true charity is brought forth within me. In the end everything can be deceptive, whether that be things from the outside like people, scriptures, religions, and even supernatural experiences, or whetehr that be things from the inside, like our intuition, emotion, reason, experience and even when judging all of these things on its moral outcomes, because morals depend so much on our surroundings...
No doubt, all these things being somewhat in harmony to eachother, are a great epistemology to work out and define spiritual truth, and yet, even when people use all of these tools, they still end up with different definitions of truth, even if they talked to God himself (which is something we clearly see even within the Bible)... The only thing people can not be deceived in, is the amount of the good fruits of charity that is brought forth within themselve.. or in other words..
Everything that inpsires to be more loving, gentle, forgiving, truth-embracing, mindful, respectful, selfless, patient etc. is of God..
I actually found that combining two thigs, firt, to put data over dogma, being willing to let the truth speak for itself, without the need to bend the data to fit my own dogma, aswell as judging all things on a spiritual level by the amount of charity it inspires me to bring forth, is a pretty fulfilling way to go about things.. and the more I pondered on this, the more I realized that the amount of Charity that arisis within us, is the only "good fruit" that can neither be faked, pretendet or manipulated, and is therefore the best way to discern spiritual truth from deception..
Mayby this is what is meant that there are save two churches only, meaning, spiritual truth goes far beyond religion and dogma, and therefore is neither owned by the one or the other, but is like a song that inspires people no matter what backround they are coming from (well, that analogy had to come from a compmoser). Mayby some it inpsires to write a book, others to paint a picture, and another one to simply stand still in awe, but all of the them have been touched by the divine..
And this understanding made so many things easier to me, for example even if it turned out that the Bible and the BOM is all just made up, if it brings forth the "good fruits" within people, it is of God.. But it also made me better understand the nature of God, and that even he can be discerned by this method, for example be dicerned from a well worked out deception by a hypothetical timetraveler, who had all the power and technology to deceive all our senses, create powerful visions and dreams, and even change words of the Bible..
WIth all this, it would still not bother me, for the moment these "good fruits" are not brought forth, I also know the "tree" is evil..
And to me, understnanding this has been quite liberating, thought I don't claim it has to be the ultimate truth of things.. but to me it seems the only way we can create heaven right here right now, and mayby there is truth to the words "as below, so above".. meaning, what we created in the here and now, will be the place and condition of tomorrow.. It takes away the need to merely dream of a heaven, where all others that dont fit your own interpretation of truth will end up in hell.. It opend up to a God that desires all of us to be saved and embraced by truth.
Sorry for the long response, but from having that persepctive, I really enjoyed your video.. Keep it rolling :)
Barrett Burgin... you killed it, but I think that changing the policy is not changing the goal post, rather bringing us closer to purer doctrine, and God has the patience to deal with us and allows us to work out the problem. Sometimes it takes a long time like the priesthood. God gave the commandment that everyone should have the gospel... did the early saints catch that? No, even when Jospeh ordained blacks to the priesthood, even when we had one as a 70. Same goes with the mormon thing, Hinckly actually was trying to move away fromt he word mormon, but old habits die hard. Im just glad that nelson was firm on this.
Great discussion, especially the points on the "[if He does this], God would cease to be God," that the more science we discover, the more obvious it is that we don't know enough. I loved the insight on superpositions with light waves and particles. I love how this scientific discussion can inform a religious mindset. I know Barrett personally; glad he got this opportunity to share all this. I could write a longer post on all my thoughts during this, but I'll leave it there at least 😄
What was the book that was referenced about the research on choices?
The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt
@@BarrettBurgin Thank you!
I have heard this in the past. People say that Joseph Smith did not have a sexual relationship with the 14 year old wife. But I don't know that there's any way you can conclusively say that. It clearly would have been much wiser of Joseph to say no, not until she's 18 or whatever.... And then what about the coercion of Sister walker I think it was who basically said she had no choice..... There are definitely disturbing facts about Joseph Smith. That an inspired prophet should have known better.
Anyone who said that he did is going against his testimony, her testimony, and the testimony of everyone that knew them, which would be pretty much the same as claiming that “anyone” had a sexual relationship with “anyone” “because there’s no way you can conclusively say that they didn’t.” Then things could start to get real messy, real fast. It’s easy to say “there’s disturbing facts”. It takes a lot more work and research and to actually learn about the context, societal norms, the nature and personality of Joseph Smith, etc.
We have to remember that times were very different back then. A 14 year old wife was rare, but not unheard of. The legal age of consent in most places in the US was 12. Joseph was not doing anything illegal by taking a 14 year old wife. Also, a 14 year old in 1800s America was more capable as a woman than most modern woman in their 30s today. Life demanded things from them that don’t exist today. They knew how to run farms and take care of every house hold chore, including raising their younger siblings if their mother died. People died more often and younger then. Because they lived in a tougher world in general, that in and of itself matured them. People were also very religious in those days so they would be more spiritually mature then their modern counterparts as well. What I’m trying to say is, a 14 year old in 1800s America is very different than a 14 year old today.
Why would God want the bringing forth of the true gospel of Jesus Christ to be so convoluted with such damaging actions by Joseph Smith.... I'm sorry I just don't buy that God instructed him to marry an Inconsequential 14 year old.
@@Elpatoloco2011 my testimony is not based on one thing. I look at the big picture and have examined the entire restoration story and have concluded for my self that it is true. I think you are judging history by 2023 standards, and you need to judge people in the time in which they lived. Times were very different back then. I also don’t think it is wise to come to conclusions based on one thing. Try viewing the restoration in its entirety from Joseph smiths claims of visions, to producing the Book of Mormon, to establishing a church and doctrines in the face of severe persecution, to millions of converts years later who share innumerable spiritual experiences, etc. read the Book of Mormon, and study church history on these topics you are concerned about. I’ve studied much and conclude Joseph smith was a prophet.
@ghrammcracker7524 Glad it works for you... I've been a lifelong member and have never been able to reconcile All of the Issues that make me think it's more Likely made up then not.
"promo sm" 👌