Making a Set Over Centre taper turning attachment from Hemingway Kits
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- Опубліковано 23 чер 2024
- In this video I make a taper turning attachment tool from Hemingway kits known as a 'Set Over Centre'. This tool is used for turning tapers in the lathe without the need to disturb the tailstock alignment.
Buy the kit from Hemingway;
www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog...
Finger Plate clamping tool video
• Making a Finger plate ...
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Timestamps
0:00 Introduction
0:16 Cutting tapers in the lathe
1:10 How does it work?
1:29 Hemingway Kit plans
1:39 Making the tool body
4:47 Making the slide
8:29 Making the screws
10:14 MT3 arbor screw
10:57 Engraving the scale
12:53 Radiusing the ends
14:20 Machining the MT3 arbor
16:12 Making the half centre
18:39 Using the finger plate
20:13 Hardening the part
22:14 Using the taper turning attachment
24:11 Tool complete
Its baffling you have only 16k subscribers!! Your video quality is wonderful.
Thanks, much appreciated!
Nice one. For finding the amount to take off the back of your center you can also just think about the quarter turn you want and the 1.25 mm pitch thread. You'll find 1.25*1/4 = 0.3125 mm to remove!
Great tip! Thanks for that.
i would be interested in a build video for that height gauge, i love seeing your work so far!
Thanks! I’ll do a build video on the centre height gauge at some point soon then.
Very interesting. I think I would add a couple of pins on the top so you could measure the offset with a micrometer.
I have also made some Hemingway kits they are great fun and you always learn something.
Excellent video.
That did cross my mind, good idea.
Great idea Mr C.
It is nice to see someone on UA-cam knows how the properly machine with a mill! Most YT'ers will try for the blue chips and break their tooling.
Thanks! Much appreciated
FYI the standard Imperial threads that are in use in America are UNC and UNF.
The BSW and BSF (that you keep referring to) are Whitworth (55°) thread forms that were primarily used in the UK, and were superceded by Metric many decades ago (probably before you were born), and almost never used elsewhere.
So if you are including "Imperial equivalents" for any US viewers, you need to refer to the threads that they actually use (UNC and UNF) over there.
Ok thanks for pointing that out. It’s a BSF thread specified in the plans but could be substituted for an equivalent. I should have mentioned that. Thanks.
That is a good idea you have there only thing is to use a bearing in the chuck to keep the stress off your tailstock
Good idea, thanks.
Fantastic job. Great video. Thanks 👍
Thanks!
Just binge watching your channel, great work and thanks for all of the content
Thanks David, much appreciated!
What an awesome build. Was thinking, I know it's a kit but to buy a cheap carbide tipped half dead center would be a great option for faster machining and not worry about the center burning out. Please keep these videos coming they're a great watch.
Thanks! Yes that would be a great idea.
Great video, thanks for sharing!
Nice little project well videod and explained, looking forward to more project Thank you.
Thanks, much appreciated!
Just found your channel. Really enjoyed it. Thanks brother.
Thanks, much appreciated!
Hello from South Dakota. Great job. Thanks for putting this together for us.
My pleasure, thanks for watching!
Very nice Jonesey. Yes, I for one would be very interested in hearing more about the lathe tool height gage you created. Thank you 👍👍😎👍👍
Thanks! I’ll make another height gauge on camera as there seems to be a bit of interest in that.
It might be worth mentioning that R type centre drills should be used to compensate for the " rocking " that occurs when the male centres are misaligned to the female holes.
Another method is to use a ball inserted into a standard centre drilled hole and a cup used to hold each ball in both the headstock and tailstock. This can safely drive more severe tapers.
Thanks for the advice. I’ll give that a try!
Never thought about using balls for centers. Cool idea! I’m going to play with that thanks
@@bencapobianco2045 Agree with that. Never thought about that alignment issue. Learned something again.
Well done!
Thanks!
That thing is awesome…
⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
👍👍
Thanks!
Great video you are very clear and informative in all your operations I'm very new to lathes so I'm still learning but I'm going to give some of those tools a shot . I don't have a milling machine yet so Ill have to figure something out there
Thanks! Give it a go, it’s the best way to learn!
If you rotate your QCTP you can mount a tool on the right hand side of it which would allow you to have less tool stickout, at the cost of travel between the tool post and the chuck.
Great idea, I didn’t think of that, thanks!
This is one of those places where the standard "lantern" style tool post comes in handy.
Subbed. Love your camerawork & narration. Keep 'em coming! 👍
Thanks, much appreciated!
Amazing idea
Thanks!
Nice job - this would be a nice tool to have - think I’ll make one.
Thanks! It’s a good little tool.
Brilliant !
Thanks!
Wow fantastic tool! Love how it has that slot and markings and thumbscrews. Be nice with a dovetail. Can't stand having to use a test bar.
Thanks!
Great job !!😀
Thanks!
Nice recovery!
Thanks!
Great content, well made and excellently explaine. Earned yourself a new subscriber :)
Thanks. Glad to have you on board!
Make that 2!
Very great job machinest
Thanks!
Very nice 👍
Thanks!
Nicely done and especially nice photography. Drill bits often drill oversized. So, when doing slots I predrill with an undersized drill bit.
Thanks. Good tip, I'll do that next time. Cheers.
Twist drill bits can cut a great deal oversize. I worked in a shop that used surplus drill bits. If a 1-1/64 inch bit, the one we used the most, was shaped to cut evenly on both lips, it would bind before it got through an inch of hot rolled steel, so they had to be sharpened to oversize to drill the called-out 1-1/64 inch hole. For some reason, I had to work one-night drilling holes instead of running a lathe. I got all I need of the worn-out bit in about 15 minutes, and happened a less women to 1-inch bit to cut on one lip, making a 1-1/64 hole. I did two and a half times more work that night as the chips didn't tangle with only one lip making a chip. I just positioned the part, set the clamps, lowered the drill bit, engaged the power feed, and removed the part when the feed disengaged all night long. I did have to drag the chips away, and check the hole size every half hour or so.
@@joneseymakesthe problem is the tip where there’s barely any cutting action or chip clearance. You’re not cutting chips at the tip so much as smashing the tip into the workpiece so the flutes can grab chips further out. This takes high downward force which, when you add the cutting forces, makes the drill bit wander. Predrilling a 2-3mm hole to full depth gives clearance for the tip of your bigger drill, so you’re cutting on the most effective part of the flutes. This makes the downward pressure you need to cut much lower, it’s easier on your machines, your holes will come out on size, and your drill bits and reamers will last longer!
You can offset the tailstock or use a morse taper boring head in the tailstock with a ball bearing instead of a center.
Thanks for the tip
Thanks
Enjoyed this a lot. Sub'd.
Welcome aboard!
Just for the Next time 115CrV3 "silver steel" is a wather hardener. But apart of that very nice project.
Thanks for the tip, I’ll do that next time
another great practical tool, well made, an idea would be to make a shorter knurl knob for the tool post side ?
Yes, that is a good idea. Another viewer suggested rotating the tool post so that the tool is on the other side. This i tried and is a good solution, but also limits the travel a little as the carriage approaches the head stock.
I would be interested in seeing a video on the correct use of a between centres test bar, I find your videos very informative and helpful, many thanks
Good idea, I will do a video on that
The length L is not the length of the piece properly, but instead the distance between the contact points of the two centers! This may be close to the length of the piece, but when you move off axis the contact point changes, changing the L therefore the final taper!
Thanks Paolo. It does say that in the instructions for the kit. I must have miss spoken in the video, apologies!
Very good jab Godbelsyo T.q
Thanks!
If you modify this design to a single pull/push adjustment screw located at the rear and do away with the front screw you will reduce the obtruction dramatically.
Also just to mention that standard point centres are only suited to very small lateral offsets. Larger offsets require the tailsrock centre to be pivotable to match the workpiece centreline and a ball sphere centre should be fitted to the lathe spindle.
Thanks Howard, great point on the design, something to bear in mind if I make another. I've not heard about pivotable tailstock centres so that's good to know they exist!
You can also use a rounded center drill in the to be machined part which allows for more angular misalignment with a normal center. I think this tool is meant for mild tapers and the scale is a bit too wide for practical use. I like the micrometer add-on! Thank you!
Good point. A spherical plain bearing would do the trick. However would a ball bearing silver soldered onto a mandrel work as well? It would be a very hard ball centering in a cone.
@@johnspathonis1078 It won't be hardened after silver soldering. Those temperatures will anneal carbon steel.
@@howardosborne8647 Hi Howard This is true but depends on silver content. I usually machine mating part with same size ball nose end mill. Silver solder with high silver content or epoxy in place. I have made a reference length with zero adjust radial runnout for my CNC mill with soldered ball bearing. Works well.
Great to see your mistake! And how you recovered...good job!
Thanks!
I don't know how easy it would be to set up for engraving again but you could engrave a vernier scale by the fiducal mark on the moving part to get 0.1mm (or even perhaps 0.05mm) resolution.
That’s a great idea. Thanks.
Just what I was thinking.
If you sacrificed some appearance you could improve accuracy.
If you left the edges square and used socket head screws of needed length instead of thumb screws, you would be able to measure the offset with a caliper or even a depth micrometer.
Se vee muy.bueno,y que sirve
Thanks, it's used for turning tapers on the lathe.
Very good explanation of procedure you could probably make a electrical heat induction coil which most likely have less distortion than a torch very good video
Good suggestion, thanks
I use a Morse taper equipped boring head with a little shop-built live center in it. Don't need no fancy attachments. Figure the offset for the taper half-angle and the part length and bada-bing!
Sounds like a good solution!
One thing not noted, is that for a ``precision`` workholding, that fixture should be indicated to be horizontal, as if its not, you have ``a cosine error`` as the fixture is moving the part not as the tailstock would, towards the operator, but at an angle down or up, which is what we are trying to negate with lathe leveling, so if the fixture is tilted slightly downwards towards your feet, the part is pushed to the floor and below what would have been your previously set center of the tool cutting height... Inverse is also true for if the fixture is tilted towards the operators face at any angle, as it then lifts the part slightly above the the center axis of the lathe and thereby makes your offset incorrect, as your tool height is set on ``normal`` center of your lathe axis, innit? This, in my view, is more of a ``gadget`` and a cool toolmakers quickie taper fixture, but for proper work, buy a 0.001mm micrometer head, modify your tailstock to use it and a counteracting setscrew on the other side as usual, with that, you have a 25mm range of extreme precision and repeatability, while allowing you to engrave the zero coordinates on the side of the tailstock so you can get it back to zero in as fast as you are willing to turn that micrometer head... On the inside of the tailstock, use a hardened flat block for the micrometer to register against, and grind the other screw flat as well, for both of them to act against a hardened flat surface nicely... Just grease up that micrometer rod as to avoid it catching any rust over time and reapply the fresh grease onto it and the screw now and again...
Thanks for the feedback. Yes, totally agree with everything you’ve said. The build notes state that you should indicate the tool horizontally, I forgot to mention this in the video. I’ll be using this tool for quick tapers where dimensions aren’t critical, such as tool handles etc. For anything that requires more precision I’ll be offsetting the tail stock with micrometers as you suggest, it’s difficult to hit fractions of a millimetre using only the scale I engraved on the tool.
Hi, I seem to remember that George Thomas did an analysis of the effects of tool height errors. I recall it being quite interesting. In general one needs to be wary of cosine errors, for small angular displacements they may not be that significant - at very low angles the Cosine is very close to 1.000. Having said that there is no harm and indeed a lot of good in getting things as accurate as one can - in a reasonable timeframe and at a reasonable cost. Incidentally, I like the micrometer head recommendation and will see if I can install one myself.
Your setover calculation assumes that the taper adjustment is parallel to the bed. That is, that the half center stays at the same vertical height. Which, of course, it won't be. Although cumbersome, offsetting the tailstock only changes one axis, not two like this attachment.
Everyone make masteak it still works that the good thing about. L think you did a great job on this mate thumb up from me mate
Cheers!
the cone always seems wrong to me when trying to set over. Wouldn't a ball bearing be a better option so you wouldn't be jamming the tip of the conical center into a mismatched angle?
Yes a ball would be a better option, especially on set overs of more than a couple of degrees
Well, theoretically the tip of the center is narrower than the cone you center drill of the end of your part minus whatever the offset for the taper is.
But aren't most center drills 60 degree included angle?
So in practice, it seems weird that the plans call for 60 deg inc angle on the half center. Especially since you are turning it yourself, you could easily do 50 deg inc angle and then have the ability to turn up to a 10 deg inc angle before this issue might arise.
But then again, he did harden the center, so the worse that might happen is a bit of wear inside the center drilled hole, which shouldn't be an issue in reality.
Bit late to the party here, but there are actually two type of commercially available center drills. The most common has a 60 degree included angle cone, intended for straight shaft turning. The other type has a concave radius that generates a ball profile in the female center, that center geometry is meant to be used for taper turning because it provides that single band contact exactly like a ball bearing would.
I noted, when doing the fiduciary line, that the chamfered edges make it a bit more difficult to get an exact alignment, without some parallax error...?
Good point, I didn’t consider that
Thanks for sharing your channel! I'm enjoying your builds! BTW you can release Loctite Red 271 by heating to 500°F (260°C), per manufacture. I have no idea how to do it, but with your DRO, you may be able to score a 10ths scale, like on manual calipers?
Thanks, yes, I think a vernier scale would work well
if you can fit it in your headstock I would set the scale in the middle and then put the centre in the headstock and then turn or grind the centre true to the morse taper on the back end, at the moment your centre is only as true to the taper as your M8 screw are (which have clearance in the threads etc which wont be perfectly centred. apart from that fantastic video!
Thanks, that's a great idea. I may well do that.
First rule of milling grooved sliding parts: Corner relief. Didn't hear you mention Hemmingway adressing that in the plans which they really should have. Seeing as they're focused on hobbyists that can't or won't always spend a fortune on tools they could have added a section in the build guide to check ebay and other places for a small used slitting saw to do the reliefs, they're like 5€ for that size.
Thanks for that. No corner relief mentioned in the plans, what part are you referring to specifically? Seems to work just fine as it is for me.
@@joneseymakes The slot that the movable part of the fixture slides in. In practice you almost always want to undercut the bottom corners along the length of the slot to maker sure you don't have a small corner radius in the bottom. It ensures that the mating assembly bear on the top surface of the groove. The slot is only supposed to be a locational feature to constrain the positioning of the fixture transversely
@@OB1canblowme Or alternatively just chamfer the corners of the male sliding element. Achieves the same purpose.
@@OB1canblowme in this case it looks like the slot is actually deeper than the male cunterpart is high, meaning it never touches the bottom surface (and by extension the corners), just the sides of the slot, as seen at ~6:28
ofc. i could be wrong, but thats what it looks like to me and it would be quite an easy solution, even if its not the most elegant.
Application of heat will loosen the loctite.
Thanks!
For it being a kit, I think I would hunt around in my metal pile and save some money if I was you.
My suggestion would be 1 of 2.
1) pre drill the hole .032" (.8mm) smaller then finished size. Then chase those holes with finish size. It should keep it from walking. It is always best to predrilled a hole .125" (or down to .093") to keep it straight.
2) just stick to the .032" undersized drilled hole and slot it with an endmill. A knee mill isn't too bad to manually ramp in. Raise the table as you 4un the x to the left, and back to the right. I would prefer to do this with an endmill that is .032" undersized. Then come back (if it is a nominal sized slot) with the finish endmill. Plunge through one slot end, then move to to other slot end. Z out. 😊
Good advice, thanks for that.
If you want accuracy while off setting centers make sure that your work piece has F centers and not sixty degree centers. If you try to grind with out using radius centers you will be undersize before you can get the taper out. That is why OD grinders have tilt tables.
Ok thanks, good tip
Do you have any details on the shop made die holder? Interested In the mechanism that free spins the handle
Yes, I’m making a video on that right now which should be out in the next week or so.
👍👍👍
Awesome tool! I need to make one for work. Question though... why do you deburr the threaded holes after threading? Wouldn't it be easier to use the counter sink tool before threading and help guide the tap in?
Thanks, yes from memory I think I did that but didn’t cut the countersink deep enough and had to go back in and deburr after anyway!
Great job mate! Could you tell me how do you align the tool verticaly? In my understanding, if it's off, it's also becoming lower at one end? Right?
It’s aligned vertically by the tailstock. You also need to align it horizontally, I do this with an indicator
@@joneseymakes Thanks mate!
From the half-way point, why didn't you put the MT3 taper in the headstock spindle for improved accuracy? Have you no collets for the headstock?
I do, however, unfortunately due to the lead screw cover getting in the way I can’t get close enough into the spindle to machine anything once the chuck is off. This is something I need to fix.
@@joneseymakes Got it - but that leadscrew cover needs rearranging. I'm still a bit puzzled about making tools when you must have spent close to £10K on your lathe and mill. Penniless, now ...?
👍👌
Often wondered why no body runs a squaring plate from the top of the tail stock to hold the tool at exact parallel to the lathe bed, this would avoid any offset errors.
Yes, good idea.
Don’t forget you could have heated the part and the loctite will breakdown, then just unscrew. loctite give you the temp needed on their site just go to the product number page.
Thanks Graham, yes I realised that afterwards.
Nice alternative to move the tailstock to get the offset. The tool could interfere with the carriage as you mentioned, but is the front facing adjusting screw needed? It could be angled towards the tailstock or could even be omitted. In that case, some sort of clamping of the sliding part would be needed, but that could be less space consuming. Is offset adjustment in the tool really needed? For a 'negative' taper, You could flip the single sided tool or the workpiece around.
How is this attachment supposed to be aligned with the bed, the tool height and product centerline? I see some geometric challenges, but I liked math in high-school .... Anyway, I learned from your your machining.
You could get rid of the front screw to give more space yes, but you would then need a locking mechanism for the slide as you suggest. Could be a better solution. The tool does need to be aligned with the bed or you get a cosign error in the angle being cut as I understand it. Thanks for watching!
Why not put the slide lock bolts on the front?
I suppose that could work yes
Tip; Loctite cannot stand heat. So if you want to release a loctite connection heat up the part until the Loctite starts to fume. About 150 degrees centigrade. If the part is in connection with plastic parts you're f**cked. Thank you for sharing! Best, Job
Cheers, thanks for the advice.
making a vernier would be great, just make 2,1mm between the lines on the sliding part, you will just need to make the regular scale bit longer
Yes good idea
@@joneseymakes to be honest I think that using a dial indicator on stock you are working on (as close to the end as possible to get good reading) is simplest way as it is the part between the centers that rotates and will need to be be ofset but a verniere would be great to cut setup time some.
I am brand new to the hobby and have not yet used Loctite or similar, but did you not mention in earlier videos that Loctite thread locker compound can be broken down using heat? Edit: I may have confused one of the many machining videos I watched during the last weeks with one of yours (I only recently discovered your channel). I am fairly certain about hearing about using heat.
You’re right, you can use heat to loosen it. I just didn’t think of it at the time.
Wait are 648 really that permannet? I thought it would lose grip with heat and/or a sharp blow? (Though might been risky with thread that small?)
Apparently it will let go if you apply enough heat, not tried it myself though.
Jonesey Is that a Warco Super major Mill ?
Yes that’s right.
Predrill with a 5mm and size up with the milling tool..?
Good suggestion
Glass hard? No tempering down to light straw?
I didn’t temper it no. I should probably do that.
Can someone give me the brand of chamfer tool he is using at the 3:42 mark? I like this style but I'm having a little trouble locating one. Thanks.
I’m using an unbranded Chinese set here. Just search for countersink/deburring set and you should find some.
I would have deviated some more from the drawings and engraved a vernier into the slide
I would do the same if I were making it again today.
How deep were the engraving marks?
Hard to say exactly, maybe 0.2mm
A little heat would release the locktite.
Thanks, I’ll try that next time.
bonsoir !!!bravo mais en installant la tête d’alésage dans la poupée cela fait le même travail ( en mettant une pointe sèche bien sur ) c'est comme ça que je fais
Intéressant, je vais devoir essayer ça ! Merci d'avoir regardé!
The Loctite is permanent until you apply some heat…
You could have save yourself some time and effort by heating the assembly.
LoL put a torch on that glue
if you heated it up the locktight would have come undone
Thanks, something to bear in mind for the future.
You say umm a lot lol
UA-cam keeps recommending videos I have already watched. I wrote them to stop this or I would cancel my premium subscription, but of course they did not reply.
Come to think about it, maybe their intention is actually to make me and others cancel our subscriptions, to make us watch more commercials.
Anyhow. My new weapon is to stop recommending any channel for which they keep recommending videos I have already watched. You have become a victim of that. Sorry.
I’m sorry to hear that. I have no control over what UA-cam shows you unfortunately. Hopefully you’ll be back for some of my future content