Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. In order for our craft to advance, discussion like this is imperative. Look forward to the comments!
They completely ignore the stress of aggressive dogs every time they come in contact with any triggers. It's possible, with good trainers, to fix that in a couple weeks, sometimes just a few sessions. The stress from training with those tools just a few times is incomparable to the stress they would otherwise keep having, possibly for years.
I like your videos Zak, I used one to teach my girl how to beg/sit pretty. However, as a whole, Beckmans has been the best all round for dog behaviour corrections. However, keep it up you're both doing good things in different ways.
@@Flippokid completely agree!!! Spend a few sessions with balanced methods yes there's stress or spend months possibly years trying to counter condition treat your way out of it, while the dog is stressed the whole time!
Reformed ex Petsmart trainer here... Positive reinforcement is best for most situations. I do also agree that other methods are necessary for some dogs too. Corrections are necessary as well. You can't teach your kids with nothing but praise and candy, sometimes they need a time out or grounded.... I completely agree with you
Petsmart trainers are not dog trainers... i get at least 30 customers a month who came from petsmart training and learned nothing important to have a confident & calm dog. Petsmart trainers dont even get proper training so ur opinion aint shit
@@1983Santiago Please know that not all people who start as Petsmart Pet trainers are proper Dog trainers. Also, to outright say someone's opinion is "shit" without even knowing half of who I am... Shows your ignorance and possible quick response to think "ONLY MY WAY WORKS SO F EVERYONE ELSE" Not one way of training is "superior" to the other, nor is it a one size fits all thing. I've had plenty of successful students during and after my Petsmart days. Using many methods. Petsmart is strictly positive reinforcement. And sometimes that doesn't work on every dog.
Zak's approach helped me with a dog who responded to it. Yours is helping me with a dog who doesn't. I feel both are balanced; no one is abusing dogs. "Aversive" and "cruel" are far from synonymous.
Exactly. I think that there are good things to learn from everyone. After reading that it was cruel and inhumane, I just started using a basic rope leash to train my dog. Works wonderfully. Barely pulls, have a good tool to catch her attention when needed, she gets excited when she sees it. It means fresh air outside, some treats etc. The last thing I want to do in the world is harm her
@@dcdc139 The last thing I want to do is harm my dog too. That's why I refuse to use physical correction that I wouldn't use on someone else's 2 year old child.
The argument isn’t about whether punishment to modify behavior is most effective. The question here appears to be: which method of reinforcement is best. Positive reinforcement vs negative reinforcement. Reward vs aversive. The old “yank and crank” style escape avoidance dog training is dated. Science has disproven its efficacy repeatedly. It’s obsolete in the sport world. Even police departments and military trainers now use positive / rewards based training. Proof is in the pudding: compare how they perform. Look at how fast they change positions and general disposition. It’s obvious how each dog was trained. Dogs trained this way are no longer competitive. That’s why nobody does it anymore. What you get is an unhappy dog who begrudgingly performs commands out of fear and grows to hate you. It’s reinforcing behavior through the dogs motivation to avoid the punishment. Fear. Stress. (For disobeying). Who wants a dog to perform commands out of fear? Why would you want to cause your dog stress? Here’s how they differ: 1) Dog comes quickly, happily and excitedly to receive a reward from his favorite person. 2) Dog comes slowly with his head down fearful of getting punished by someone hes afraid. I don’t think the technique of dragging your dog over to where you called him from works very well for training recall …maybe 20 years ago. People bring their dogs to you and you just bark out commands and give them corresponding leash corrections. How do you even know those dogs know those commands? Do you even like animals? Anger issues in the past? What exactly do you train dogs to do? Be submissive? It’s like youre pissed at the dogs all the time. Iron fist dog training. Easy on the doggies bro.
@@sevenohm3375 Why not use positive reinforcement to train your dog new stuff you want him to do, and use a little negative reinforcement to quickly tamp down some instinctive behaviors that that dog wants to do but is not acceptable in human society. Seems to me a balanced approach is simply the fastest way from point A to point B. All positive and all negative both give slower results than an appropriate mix of the two.
I want to say thank you to both Joel and Zak for having this conversation and starting it amongst each other communities. I go back in forth between a lot of methods. And I think we all incorporate ideologies from both people. I think this new statement will allow us to all come together once again to see where everyone stands and help each other out. We all want to show love and care for our dogs. We all want them to love and feel the world around us in a positive way. Onward we go!
The loose leash method you show us, with the correction, worked wonders on my dog. He has been pulling for 8 years, I have tried so many methods with positive reinforcement, but it never worked. If it worked, it only lasted a short time and my dog was always a fast walker, stressing by my side wanting to go as fast as he could. With the method at the door ("is he with me, or not?"), giving a tug at the leash when he got to the end of the leash, letting him go if he wanted to and then correcting him if he went too far, using multiple stops on a walk to check if he is "with me", well..my dog no longer pulls, he walkes beside me like he has never done anything else. I am beyond happy!!!!!!!! Best wishes from a subscriber in Norway
As a veterinary professional myself, I am confident in my assertion that veterinary professionals don’t know JACK DIDDLY SQUAT about dog behavior/training. They know the physiology, not mentality, of the pets they treat. I am CONSTANTLY having to correct/educate my coworkers and many are left in awe when I am able to do things with some of the more problematic animals that most of them could only dream of bc they just don’t understand basic dog communication and body language.
My first dog was a 3 month old sheltie that I trained from a book 🙂 when I was 19. She was very affection oriented and praise oriented. I never gave her treats and never had to scold her. BUT this was before the days of walking your dog so although she would drop on a dime when the command was given, she was never properly leash trained. As I have had more dogs and trained more dogs I have learned that most of them are food oriented and the walk has become a big deal. My current rescue is a little guy, a Lhasa apso mix with a sweet disposition unless another dog enters his territory. Then he becomes Cujo. I hired a trainer and had my first experience with positive only training. She actually told me never to say "no" to him because it meant nothing to him. Really? Also told me not to use my slip lead which up until then had been working very well. I was told to avoid. That's not a solution. For this I paid over $300. I really enjoy your videos and hope to come across one that will guide me in allowing other dogs in my house! 😉
That’s my experience with vets as well. It extends to horses as well, farriers are this way most times. And I’ve never met a vet that knew anything at all about the horses they worked on.
@@anneckman5828 Good thing I don't believe in positive reinforcement alone. When I say NO sternly, our dogs know what that means and they listen. And good thing they are small breeds LOL.
And this is why I love Beckman. He doesn't bash other trainers or methods but definitely admits when he doesn't align with certain ideas and will tell you why.
Yes, I like his approach as well. And that's not the only reason why the positive reinforcement law (or a law regarding any other training method) will never pass and get a green light. All dog trainers, behaviorists, veterinarians, behavior correction organizations and businesses, as well as all other closely related organizations, private or otherwise, depend on zoological, behavioral and other legal, official scientific studies approved by government organizations and research entities. No law, regulation or rule regarding dogs, dog training or anything revolving around animals and pets in general, will pass, unless there are scientific studies with enough evidence met, to pass the changes through. The purely positive reinforcement ''law/rule'' will never happen, as there is no field under the entire scientific branch of biology, including fields like zoology, physiology and ethology, with studies containing evidence that supports such training methods. No dog trainer, behaviorist or anyone else, no matter who or how famous he or she is, should ever have their word taken over the word of a biologist aka. a zoologist, ethologist or a physiologist, because they don't dictate the rules, they don't dictate what's right or wrong, biologists do - and the entire core of biology, revolves and supports ONLY and SOLELY scientific aka. holistic approach to dog training. They DO NOT support positive reinforcement method, dominance method, mirror method or any other method other than the scientific, holistic training method. The supposed law of positive reinforcement would and will never pass, no matter how popular it gets, because there is no scientific evidence to support it (or any other method of training,) over the scientific, holistic training method. If any law regarding dog training was to be passed, they one and only method that would ever be approved over all others would be the scientific method aka. ''holistic method.''
Preach it! I love that you responded and took a stand on this ridiculous agenda. I like Zak - he's a wonderful at shaping behaviors and I've learned a lot from him to teach tricks. But trainers like you and Tom Davis are teaching practical, real world techniques for dealing with challenging problems. Keep up the good work!
I don't know Tom Davis, but I've had specific problems that I've looked up on this channel which were only solved by Beckman's training. I tried other stuff too, didn't work. Now I just go here directly.
@@DaveDEF82 Wait, you fault Tom Davis for incorporating 'scatter feeding' into his balanced training? Why? I saw the video you referenced and thought it commendable that he sought advice.
I just think people aren't understanding what's being told. All I hear from Zak is counter conditioning. Which is a time based approach. It still uses all 4 quadrants of operant conditioning. the issue is most here aren't understanding the positive only training. Even the positive only trainers themselves 😒. 1. Negative punishment is used when a treat or stimulus is withheld from the dog. 2. Positive punishment is used when telling the dog to leave something alone and pay attention to you, especially if you aren't allowing the dog near the stimulus(youre adding the pressure of yourself to the equation) 3. Negative reinforcement is used when you remove the dog from the stimulus to decrease aggression, or reactivity, which you don't want, aka adding distance if the dog is too reactive, then working the dog again. 4. Positive reinforcement is used when the dog approaches the stimulus correctly, and is rewarded for their effort. All in micro doses, so time is the issue, thats it. If you want to quickly change a behavior, sure aversion methods likely are far faster for hard cases. But what psychological damage is being done to the dog? We know aversion methods are bad in many cases for humans. Our recidivism rates in America tell us that. So there is a balance i think. To say positive training is a ridiculous agenda though, I believe is weird. And dismissing what's actually being done, likely because a lack of proper explanation, I probably explained counter conditioning wrong also but. Its working for my high prey drive staffy. I train him with his food on walks and in the house so he only eats when we walk or train. Massive change in his behavior within a few weeks and he is a rescue so. I'm sure SOME aversion is used in positive only training, they just don't realize it, because, most don't study pyschology enough to understand when they are using punishment and negative reinforcement or how to implement those quadrants without using physical aversion methods.
Excellent post. I agree. If these tools become banned here as they are in European countries, you will see a shelter crisis like NEVER before. Glad you posted this... I'll post my retort soon!
@@BDTraining @Robert Cabral So glad you two have connected! You are both very inspiring for an apprentice dog trainer like me. Those studies are f"ing non-sense! Truly hope your inputs will make a different! Much love and respect to Mr Cabral and Mr Beckman from Sydney, Australia ✌👊
I randomly came to this channel after getting a second dog. The second dog was super chill but it was for my first dog where my wife and I had pretty much zero idea how to train an animal and the dog recently had a surgery on it's leg so we needed to be able to control the first dog. Our first dog would basically ignore our commands and would even pee on the couch. It seemed crazy to get a second dog, but we are 99% sure it was our first dog's brother. Anyway, after watching about 10 of your videos and applying what I was seeing in just two days I've noticed a dramatic improvement in our first dog. I'm so glad I found your channel and now know it's okay to do certain things to correct dog behavior when previously we thought it was wrong.
Thank you soooo much!! Really wanted your opinion on this. Since getting my puppy from abroad I've not only had positive trainers try help which hasn't worked with issues I have...but now I have a balanced trainer who agrees with all you say and I've shared your vids with as well as my friends who are all so greatful!! The change in my puppy and older dog are down to your advice! Thank you so much 😀
@@DaveDEF82 So, this approach is OK for people, but for dogs your only acceptable recourse would be drugs or euthanasia? Are there scientific studies that prove euthanasia is better for dogs than an aversive correction? I'd be interested in the conclusion section of that paper ... "The study has clearly proven that 21% of the dogs in the balanced training cohort are suffering from anxiety evidenced by 15 seconds of a submissive posture or a temporary increase in cortisol levels. None of the dead dogs in the euthanized cohort display either of these anxiety indicators."
I’ve followed Zak for all my dog training until my latest puppy. I did all the things right but she displays rough play, dominance and was still dog reactive. I believe positive reinforcement is a core foundation but it doesn’t account for poor breeding, and genetics. I’ve had to stray away from that and learn new techniques to build a better quality of life for me and my dogs.
Balance is needed in all areas of life, and dog training is no different. You’d discipline your child, why wouldn’t you discipline your dog? You’ve gotta think about the severity of the correction, and when it’s appropriate. Negative behaviors need correction, positive behaviors need reinforcement. That’s the only way humans learn, it’s the only way dogs learn.
@@bigbossadidoss8678 Agree. No wonder kids nowadays are little criminals because they know they can get away with bad behavior. If we lock up criminals for bad behavior (although it is now a bit different), then dogs should know that there are unacceptable behavior that should be stopped or else.
This is exactly why I fostered 15 dogs last year. The owners couldn’t control them because they were afraid to tell the dogs no and gave them up. So sad.
My experience is the opposite. My new rescue Sam, a large GSD with a bite history and reactivity issues has had nothing but people being scared of him and shouting NO at him. He has had 5 homes as a result as each owner gave up on him. I am building his confidence with confident leadership, lots of praise when he gets things right and calm correction when he gets things wrong. He is making excellent progress as a result.
@@cbcdesign001 That sounds great! I don't think this is about positive reinforcement "not" working, rather that sometimes its just not enough. Depending on the dog. I've learned that my dog, while being mostly balanced/calm and a great teamplayer with ME, can be a real jerk to other dogs. And in those moments I have to get in his face a little bit - otherwise he totally forgets Im even there =_= and the better I do that, the quicker he can relax again amd actually make a dog friend (or not he doesnt have to!). He gets love and treats but in those moments I have to say.. dude, chill out :P
You said it best in another video a few weeks ago. The kids (and dogs) that no one wants to to play with on the playground (or dog park) are the ones who are only receiving positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement works until it doesn't. No one wants to be mean. We just want well behaved dogs who can interact with humans and people safely. Thanks so much for your videos. They have helped us so much. Keep it up.
I watched your dog domination video, as I was at the end of my rope with my dog bullying me. It changed EVERYTHING! My GSP is 9 moths & was such a handful UNTIL I followed YOUR trying methods! I CANNOT THANK YOU ENOUGH! GOD BLESS YOU & YOUR FAMILY 🤩☺️🙏🤗🙏🙏🙏
I can tell you, had I used positive only with my dog who has had several homes before me and everytime got returned to the shelter due to he’s aggression, he would’ve been put down by now… He turned out to be terribly misunderstood, under socialised and dominant… but, he loves dogs! He loves playing with dogs! He hasn’t had a day without another dog since I’ve had him, and when my other dog had operation and was in a hospital for two days he got very depressed… he has now loads of friends all different sizes and breeds loves them all and knows to not to play too rough with smaller dogs… But he was vicious and had also some redirected aggression to handler, R+ only would’ve only led to have to put him down. I’m so grateful for this channel, we’ve benefited so much from your content.
Adopt don't shop and the no kill mentality have ruined our shelter system. You can't find a decent dog in a shelter since you can't put them down unless they are about to murder someone and even then they need a chance blah blah blah.
Keep up the good work Joel! I’ve learned more from your content than from all the others put together. Did a zoom session with you about a week ago on the Malinois puppy roughing up our toy fox terrier, you were spot on, things are much better. Thanks again!!
I hope people appreciate what a blessing it is to have so many pros sharing their time knowledge and hard earned wisdom. Thank you. Your channel and knowledge is awesome great presentation and communication skills. My 5 month all black male gsd and I are learning alot. Without all the willingness to share knowledge online. He would have already stolen my dinner , the spot on the couch, bed and probably my girlfriend too. But because of guys like you he has manners already. And asks before he has access to anything like that. Having a trained dog like your Prince and the skills to help train him is a dream. A dream worth the work. Thanks for the inspiration. Thank you
I came across Joel's videos by chance, just when we got our puppy, It was meant to be! I love that Joel puts himself out on a limb, this tells me alot about him as a person & the fact he passionately believes in what he does. In a short period we have learnt so much regarding dogs, their behaviour, training, etc & he has made us assess ourselves & our thought process with how we have approached our training. So many dog trainers out there that really have no idea, yes includes many vets & other dog 'experts'. So glad to have found his channel, a bonus for my family & dogs, thank you
Mr. Beckman, thank you so much for this video! I feel like your opinion is the balanced one and I love the balanced side of dog training. A few years ago I got my first full blooded Cattle Dog. She is truly an incredible dog and is now actually my service animal as I have a disability and am currently confined to a wheelchair. It was very difficult with my girl at first because even though I was able to teach her many things because of how smart cattle dogs are she didn't respect me because I was physically incapable of backing up what I was telling her. One set of trainers actually advised me to rehome her even though she was glued to my hip because she would never be what I wanted and I would not be able to control her given my disability. But I could not give up on her like that, I knew the potential that she had. She had developed really bad reactivity to other dogs around me due to not being socialized enough as a young puppy because I was very ill at the time. But because I am stubborn, or determined lol and we got with the trainer that we have now and started working with an e-collar. While her reactive behavior has admittedly not gone entirely away it has gotten unimaginably better. She never wanted to hurt anything or anyone, thankfully. She would just simply lose her damn mind, especially on lead. I now work at that training place I began taking her to and I spend my time helping others not give up on high energy, high drive working dogs. I now have Willow, my first Cattle Dog as stated above, Titan, a 6 month old Dutch Shepherd, and I am in process currently of rescuing another heeler puppy. This is important because this is a very ableist statement! I would not have been able to keep my dog safe without the use of e-collars, let alone training them at the level that they are now. There are three main trainers that I watch on UA-cam @Beckman'sDogTraining @ZakGeorge'sDogTrainingRevolution and @UpstateCanine if I didn't do the @ correctly I apologize. I've never tried to do them in a UA-cam comment before. But please somebody talk about this! I swear to God all positive all the time simply does not work! There has to be balance...and I love Zak George, no shade at all, but you guys people give up on some great dogs! Blessings to all!
big yes! positive reinforcement is fantastic when the dog offers the correct behaviour, but too many people focus solely on the positive reinforcement and choose to just ignore the negative behaviour rather than correcting it, leading to more issues down the road. i never trust a trainer who is extreme on either sides; my ex boyfriend is a dog "trainer"(he purely uses prong collars and "throw chains" as well as electricity to poison proof his own dogs.. i disagree with the way he does things as he actually is 100% abusive (he abused my dogs) but i also disagree with the dog daycare i work at where it's ALL positive reinforcement and NO corrections aside from saying "ah-ah" which is ridiculous when you're dealing with a 1 year old untrained great pyreneese or even a 6 month old dutchie like you have! my ex had dutch shepherds and he did NOT do enough with the male and was just purely abusive and gave no love ever - last i saw them the pup was about 10 months old and still pissing and shitting in his crate, with my ex screaming at him. the poor pup never had positive reinforcement in his life with that guy. all negative. so the puppy couldn't be around anyone without pissing everywhere and biting everyone and everything. i'm still so appalled by his actions and the fact that he has paying clients. neither extreme yields good results!!!
If you need electric shock [pain and suffering] to train your dog, that is NOT the right breed for you. Get an easier to train dog and stop shocking them. They are illegal in most advanced countries. See copy and paste here. Also, I am a 100 pound female in my 60's and trained horses for a living, some Friesians were over 1600 pounds, without bits. I have a high drive Malenois. Never even had to raise my voice, and he is the best behaved and smartest, most well trained dog I have ever had and yes, it was thousands of hours of training. Most people lack the knowledge, skills, and patience and resort to pain [e collars, etc.[. Get a dog you can train without pain. Please. See the copy and paste. E collars are banned for a reason! " Shock collars were first used in the 1960s, but no one asked the dogs for their opinions. Electronic shock collars are banned in Germany, Austria, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Portugal, Slovenia, Switzerland, Wales, the province of Quebec in Canada, and some states in Australia.Aug 5, 2022"
I've been really thankful that every dog owner i've met at dog parks in Kansas so far are really open to different training styles. Beit from purely positive to more being the boss type styles. The plus about being near a military base since most of the people who live in the surrounding towns are service members or live with them; so you get a lot of different opinions that don't discourage one side or the other. The majority of people use the 'being the boss' mentality more obviously since if their dog were to hurt another dog or person, that person would be in trouble by their chain of command, so they have their dogs pretty much mastered and it's really cool to see.
Sometimes positive reinforcement is warranted and other times more assertive corrections are necessary depending on the individual dog and the issue being addressed.
That is the whole idea of "balanced dog training" that dog trainers like Joel Beckman (this Channel) promotes. There are times for rewards, and there are times for corrections. It's just common sense. It really puzzles me why some people think only one should be used.
Completely agree. Zak is great and was a very measured look at this position. Beckham states that the studies are flawed, states his way is the best/only way but cites no studies to support his position. Also has no support for his statement that big box stores are driving this. Sounds like conspiracy theory.
First of all, You do a great job! You are Not wrong I Had the winner of one of the first Meeker CO. World sheep dog championships teach me some things. He said, “does that behavior make you uncomfortable?” I said, “Yes” he said, then make him uncomfortable, as spontaneously as you can and get good at it. He said, if he was right here you could raise your voice or kick dirt or clap your hands. Those are all things that he doesn’t like. At that time I had a nearly finished trial ready border collie who was pushing the sheep too hard on a cross drive 300 yards away. He hollered to me, “take his sheep away” That is what makes the sheepdog most uncomfortable. I blew my whistle hard and laid him down. His sheep moved away while he is was lying down. So in affect, I employed the stop button (no) that I installed on him when we agreed to became puppy, dog and master. So since then I employed that same tactic every time I wanted or needed to intercept the dogs perceived intentions. You know! Like, “no means no!” Every time! Taught early and reinforced often. Hence, I didn’t run into all these problems that need to be “positively reinforced” to correct. It makes no sense. Just MO. PS My brother had the same “people” behavioral problems when he was breaking colts. Rarely is it the dog or horse!
I so agree with you. I love zak george but sometimes you need “adverse” methods. Obviously try positive stuff first. It’s a stupid study. It’s all about control. Of course we love our pets and want the best treatment for them. I believe some dogs benefit even more from adhesive methods. Some dogs are aggressive and need these methods.
Exactly! My pup is romainan Street dog although not lived on streets I NOW know its in their genes and my pup has a real issue with food aggression so working on him now with these methods as treats clicker just didn't work esp during the incidents ...
Exactly, I have 2 rescued border collies. One is a female, sweet like you cant believe, you cant tell "no" to her because she literally gets depressed, tricks and praises do it for her, she is just so happy to work and being called good girl!. Then I rescued a male, treats mean nothing to him, he takes them, slovers all over my hand and then he carries on on his bad behaviour, he is mischevious and unruly, likes to do his own stuff, trying to control him I found this channel and Joel's methods have helped me A LOT: we can walk nicely. I even used a prong at first but he graduated that with Joel's help.
Here is the thing: I'm all on board with positive reinforcement. i just wanna see an aggressive dog be cured through that idea. Once I see it I'll believe it. Until then, I'll keep using aversive when I need them.
@@DaveDEF82 Do you have videos of fixing a severely leash aggressive dog being able to safely play (without a muzzle!) with several dogs within the same day? Didn't think so. If you do have video of this using *only* positive reinforcement, I'd love to see it.
@@DaveDEF82 Pardon? First, I don't pretend to know *everything* about dog training and have only trained five dogs - only one of which was my own. Second, you took a long guess to believe that the only person I listen to is Beckman. (I have watched both of Zak George's recent series, just so you know) Third, as for the word "aversive," (the previous comment had a typo 🙄) I have long known what it means and used it here because that is how Beckman was addressing the training corrections that he uses, so it was appropriate. Fourth, please don't tell me I'm illiterate without knowing me first. And lastly, I don't train like Beckman - I've actually never used his methods because I have had no need to. But he is an honest trainer and is successful and has helped many dogs and owners move on with a happier life. Now let's both just train our own dogs in a way that makes them and us happy. Agree to disagree, the saying goes. Have a nice day and happy training! -SillyPup
I’m still waiting for the R+ only tribe to start advocating we remove puppies from their mothers at birth since they routinely apply physical corrections 😂
My husky is not food or treat motivated and every "positive only" trainer gave up on him very quickly. With your video's and learning canine body language with a balance of operant punishment and positive reinforcement, my dominate boy was able to be successful in dog parks and he absolutely LOVES dog parks and hanging out with his buds. I have said it before and I will say it again, you are the best. Balto and I thank you.
I just finished a 6 week puppy course at Petsmart last week. My trainer did not follow the positive reinforcement only training. Most of the was positive and giving treats and praise and all that but not all of it. I’m sure if corporate found out she’d be fired. She’s a retired police officer who was in charge of training the K-9 unit and before that she was a horse trainer. She does training classes at Petsmart part time for something to do. She had us doing leash corrections and recommended gentle leaders to some of use. She uses spray bottles on some of the puppies. She wasn’t afraid to stomp her feet really loud or yell no or pop the leash to get the dogs attention. I think I got lucky with getting her as my trainer bc from what I’ve heard most Petsmart trainers have very little training. I got the classes given to me as a gift so that’s why I went and luckily it wasn’t too bad.
I had a similar experience at PetSmart. The trainer though was in his 20s - not close to the same experience yours was. I was interested in the classes primarily for my dog to be around other dogs and be in a highly stimulating environment while training. Was also good to just get another trainer's input and have multiple tools in the toolbox.
I hope she has plans for when she gets caught, and maybe even a lawyer. I am so afraid of the consequences if Petsmart finds out what she is doing. I pray she never gets caught.
She sounded like a really good trainer! I did a citizens police academy course some years ago. Part of it was showing us how they train the K9 police dogs. They didn't mess around.
@@MIZZKIE could she really get sued? She’s not actually doing any of the corrections and stuff herself. She’s having the owners do it. Petsmart reached out to her and asked her to come work for them. The manager of my local store that is.
Next time you take your dog to the Vet and they want to take the dog from the exam room to the back room, GO WITH THE DOG. If they ask why, tell them you just want to observe. If they say no, that is a RED FLAG.
I switched my doggo over to raw food when he was approx. 6-7 months old. He was having some allergic reactions after a few months and I couldn't pinpoint the issue. (found out he developed/had a chicken-intolerance) I took him to the vet after I thought he was intolerant to one of his food items, and after 30 mins in the vet (most of that time I was alone in the exam room, and my pup was in the "backroom"), I have a woman come to me and tell me she truly believes we should do a full x-ray (like 1.5k total for a bunch of shit) in case he is internally bleeding from any bones from his diet. (WHAT THE FUCK???). I'mma skip my responses to this "vet", but after teaching her the difference between raw/cooked bones, I left there and I did my own food diagnosis program for a couple of weeks, and came to my previously stated conclusion. I learned in that moment most of the vets in the area are so far into this category of "feed/train your dog this way or you're wrong", that I haven't searched for another yet. 13 months later with a very healthy dog, I'm just now starting my search for a more professional vet for any future issues.
Unfortunately right now, with COVID, you can’t even sit in the clinic in some places, so just keep an eye out and ask their opinion first and operate last.
@@jacobbaysinger28 I’m in school to be a vet nurse, and honestly, the diet and behaviour side is really lacking. Most just know what they came out of school with. My dog is suffering with a lot of allergies and reactions, and the last vet we saw had racked us up in thousands of dollars of treatments that did nothing. We have to see a new vet now and they were shocked at the treatment plans the other place had. I’m not a tech, surgeon or anything so I couldn’t assert what seemed off.
Some Veterinarians have become pure gold diggers. I took my chronically sick 14.5 year old NorwichTerrier to my vet to finally get him euthanized as it was overdue but it was hard to let go of him, and the lady there wanted to talk me into getting him a kidney transplant! I was like, “ What?! No! How does that make any sense?” His kidneys hadn’t even been shown to be the problem but obviously old age was, so I guess we can assume the kidneys were not high functioning at that point. I was just trying to keep it together so I didn’t give her a piece of my mind at that time, but that was clearly an immoral and unethical thing to suggest to perform on such an old dog and a rather predatory Vet. Practice that I would certainly never go back to.
@@samcresp5440 Yeah, I understand and that's crazy. Very similar to my experience, except what this vet tried to tell me was so insane I caught it. Thankfully, because that bill was nearly 2k.
Something else that stands out to me and I’ve always noticed since I was little is that just because people work at a veterinary office whether they are reception, or all the way up to the veterinarian themselves, they don’t necessarily know or understand animal behavior as well as someone like Joel who has dedicated a significant portion of his life to it. To learning, observing, understanding and interpreting animal communication. I always find it a bit offputting (I know they have good intentions) when you walk into the vet office and everyone starts talking to my dog in a high pitch baby voice and it just gets the dog worked up. Instead of just staying calm, maybe not engaging with the dog at all.
This is so true, I remember when I first got my dog I made the mistake of asking the vet for potty training advice and remember leaving feeling very oddly unsatisfied. You would think for someone who spends their lives around dogs that they would know the basics. I guess that's why you don't go to your family doctor and ask for psychological counseling.
@@littledogRonnie exactly! I thought about mentioning this to in my comment. This has definitely been my experience in the US. When doctors are in medical school they’re lucky if they get more than 1 hour MAYBE 2 of nutrition education/cleaning. There are other parallels as well but I chose not to mention them on this platform. LOL 'Doctors Only Spend One Hour Learning About Nutrition in Four Years of Medical School-It's Not Enough' "Food is medicine." It's a refrain you hear a lot-including from doctors. Which is why it's surprising news that MDs aren't taught exactly how food and wellness are connected in medical school.Oct 8, 2019 www.wellandgood.com › ... Medical school doesn't teach nutrition-doctors think it should | Well+Good
My wife works at our local humane society and you would be surprised the amount of owners that turn "agressive" "dominance" (Internet search the word and please state your references. Please and thank you.) "My child is scared of it and won't feed it. " Said the man calling to see if we can go pick up the dog. Smh, that's why I'm fostering and educating the"stray" dog owners in my neighborhood. Outreaching and educating those that want to learn basics. I take a little bit of every dog trainer I follow and take what I feel in my heart to be right and giving them a second chance at changing the world for the better with patience and understanding. Most time the troubled youth just want to be heard.
I like the work he did with the pit bull and German shepherd. They weren't aggressive, but I think he did a good job. And I feel the same about the studies as Beckman.
I think that's actually part of the agenda. More control over the population. What are they going to do, arrest trainers like Beckman and say they're breaking the law now? These people spewing out these studies could care less about dogs. I think it would be great to see a few of them coming to Beckman's, and watching them get control of an aggressive dog. Let them demonstrate the hypocrisy they are preaching. Like he mentioned about the vets how they want to make the rules for everybody else, but it doesn't apply to them. Rules for thee but not for me. Where have we seen this before?
SO TRUE about SOME vet treatment with dogs and other animals!! The hypocrisy is rampant. In general, I believe in Zak's approach - kindness and a gentle hand is preferable to heavy handed correction through fear alone. However, given that most dogs are like 2 yr olds (mentally), swift corrective actions like a 'pop' on the collar, or grabbing the collar and getting the dog to walk as directed, and a loud "No! Stop!" or whatever... is often necessary. My dogs are working cattle dogs. They have their instincts to drive and herd. They also needed firm training to stop unwanted behaviours like play/mauling calves or ganging up on single livestock and harrassing them. No amount of 'positive reinforcement' could have produced the results needed. My dogs totally trust and respect my leadership - they've allowed me to stich their gashes and tend to their injuries without a muzzle, and at times without the benefit of local anesthetic. Thankfully, those occasions are rare, but they speak to the trust and the mutual bond between my dogs and myself. One size definitely does NOT fit all... in ANY World.
Thank you Joel. After your GOAT video, I actually looked up Zac George and watched a few videos, to get other points of view. I was shocked about his constant "positive reinforcement". I thought to myself that this will never work unless your dog is near perfect to start with. After 8 minutes or 20 minutes of whatever the video was on, I couldn't even take things away to use myself on my dog. I think I watched about 5 videos before I said enough is enough. Thank you again for your logical, informative, instructional videos that make sense and work. My dog is a 100 times better with loose leash walking. All the way from Perth, Western Australia
I did the same thing and learned a bunch of stuff to teach our foster puppies. My hope is that it reduces the amount of returns. " The dog doesn't listen to me and runs through fences" I have to check my records but Hutch is a big baby that was just scared and needed to be reminded that humans are friends
@@DaveDEF82 mother dogs use “aversive” corrections on their puppies to decrease behaviors… all other arguments are invalid unless we want to start taking puppies away from their mothers at birth 😂
I’ve been using the “leash pop” correction method for about a month and my golden retriever is doing so well, I practice a lot in the backyard and then expect the same on a walk. I might start using a halter lead because she is reactive to other dogs and we’re still working on it.
I agree about Zak's videos when it comes to dominance and aggression. Trying to fix a dog that doesn't give a sh*t or won't listen to you by using positive methods it patently ridiculous. He had one where he was trying to teach a dog not to run out the door. It took way too much time opening the door a little more each time an treating at every step. And that would not have fixed running out of any other passage. Joel fixes the behavior in about 30 seconds with his method. That said, Zak's methods are wonderful for shaping positive behaviors and I've learned a lot. He has a way of breaking down a goal behavior into tiny steps and treating at each point to reinforce. It is a different talent. Joel also does this with his "bed stay" training, but he specializes in tougher cases and is not afraid to work with dogs exhibiting negative behaviors.
as a teacher i have to say here: this attitude about learning though compassion and rewards only is the EXACT REASON children are running wild, attacking adults, macing teachers, and more. this hasn't worked for decades in schools. the reason i am so impressed by a trainer like dog daddy is that he is training these dogs the same way very small children need to be trained before age 6. because people refuse to do the hard work and unpleasant job of being a strict and loving adult to children, the youth do not trust or believe us when we try to teach or educate them. ask any teacher about how this rewards stuff has been working in classrooms.
I watched your video on leash training and after one session my extremely high energy highly distract-able dog was stopping when I stopped and looking to me for where we are going instead of trying to throw herself in every direction. She’s very anxious because she’s a little bullet who lives to sprint for hours but she responded amazing to the regular corrections with a regular collar and leash from pet smart. The only tool I needed was advice lmao
Been waiting to hear from you. Was thinking of what you might say while watching Zak’s video a few days ago. Respect Zak, but appreciate your videos so much. Love that you leave everything in, don’t do a min in the beginning one in the middle and one at the end. I was an editor for many years at national level, but appreciate when there are no edits in order to tell a story. You tell a story without cutting out the important bits.
I've watched several UA-cam dog training videos. I have a 7-10 month old dumped Doberman. Zak helped my dog, but your methods now have my dog off leash 90% of the time and few treats. Thank you for pointing out the politics behind this.
I was a vet tech for a number of years and all of the vets I worked for sedated animals that they thought might show any behaviors that the vet didn't like. This included any kind of growling or fear. All of them would direct pet owners to seek out dog trainers if a client asked questions about how to train their pet (unless it was how to potty train lol). And throughout history, the majority of so called "studies" were carried out to produce the scientists desired and opinionated results, not true results, and were not conducted using true scientific measures. This is not only true in the veterinary field but also in the human medical field. You have to take these studies with a grain of salt and do your own investigative work. Be proactive, ask why/how/where the studies came up with their info and conclusions, then make your own decision based on science and common sense, and what you feel comfortable with. Thank you for this video shedding light on a controversial topic.
From my limited experience, I’ve seen vets do things for what they believe is for their protection, without considering what is best for the animal. Probably an understatement. Medical care in general is just a business like any other business - profit driven.
I love two thing about you Joel and your channel! You stick to your guns since the day this channel is born and absolutely love how it exploded with subscribers! You might not be to GOAT yet, but you sure start pushing some guys out of the way! Thanks for everything you do for us dog lovers!
As a person who's thinking about becoming a trainer....I thank you for this video. I completely agree with everything you said. I've been watching and using your method on loose leash walking on my 6 year old mixed breed whos never been able to walk without pulling. Thanks to you, she can walk on a heel. Thanks!
thanks for your great reply. I love your work I think you do a great job with the dogs. I might be a little biased because I have a Doberman to and I think they’re amazing animals. But honestly, I think you do a great job and I’ve used your tricks at home and it has helped tremendously. Thanks again for all the great Internet free coaching you give.
I'm all for balanced training and try to use positive reinforcement as much as possible but recognize that there are times when "aversive" tools/methods are needed. There is a big push in the veterinary industry for Fear Free training, which kind of aligns with this ASVAB statement, where they try to manage a pet's fear, anxiety and stress by using positive reinforcement, gentle control and gradient touch. Granted, it's not required for vets just like accreditation with AAHA isn't, but it is gaining much more traction. You mention in your video how vets drag pets to the back and have a bunch of people hold them down. In Fear Free certified practices this isn't the case. Most, if not all, treatment is done in the exam room. There is a lot of time and attention given to how the dog is responding to things, using positive reinforcement with treats or toys or attention to distract a dog a dog from the exam or vaccines that are being given. If a client is uncomfortable with being present for a blood draw or other treatment, they're asked to step out vs taking the pet to the back as the pet is already used to and comfortable in the room. Keeping the owner in the room at that point just increases the pet's stress level and so would making the pet change room. There's more to it, like if a pet is overly stressed they'll stop the appointment, reschedule it and either send the owner home with meds for light sedation for the next visit or even work with the pet and owner by having them bring the pet in when nothing will be done to them to build that trust and positive interaction at the vet. I work at the only Fear Free certified practice in Arizona and we've seen a lot of pets who've had greatly improved experiences at the vet by using these methods. We've also seen owners who used to avoid bringing their pets to the vet strictly because of the stress it would cause on both them and their pet now coming in annually and whenever their pet needs additional care because of how well their pet does with us now. So again, while this isn't something that's mandatory at all vets, you can't say that they're telling dog trainers and owners to do things that vets aren't being asked to do when there are more than 16,000 certified vets, techs and other pet professionals who are Fear Free certified. Pet owners can find these professionals if they do a little research.
I have watched both videos and I’m so glad that you gave a response as well. While I love the idea of only positive, I think there is a place for ‘less positive’ reinforcement. Thank you for what you do and give to us.
me too, the series he did with the border collie puppy was cringe worthy. Took him months to make a super smart dog comply in basic stuff, lol. Also the first thing he does in his videos is badmouth other methods and peddle stuff. Lost respect for him a long time ago.
Without a small amount of subversive training, my dogs were a f*ing nightmare. Just a little bit here and there completely turned them around. I have a dogzilla (130-140lb St. Bernard puppy) and a microdog (5lb Yorkie, 5 y/o). The Yorkie's been agressive since puppyhood, and the Saint is goofy and distracted. Just small actions like putting the dog into a 'sit' position when they don't listen to the command or moving the dog to where I said "come" from has drastically improved both dogs' behaviors. Most training I tried before Beckmans' was positive training and the dogs basically didn't give a damn what I told them to do in the long run, where it was good in the short run.
The whole "only positive reinforcements"thing really makes us powerless. Its so annoying. And then we realize that we must correct a behavior but now we dont know how. Its a downward spiral. Also the whole dont act nervous thing! But the dog KNOWS your nervous.. so what now? xD I'm starting to just be real with my dog. Because hes real too. Maybe thats the real lesson here.
I was waiting to hear your thoughts on this new mission statement. I also agree with your stance that there are a lot of missing pieces both to the studies and the double standard within the animal industry e.g. vet clinics, shelters, rescues.
Thank you for touching on this subject! It's really great to see discussion in the dog training community about things like this. I'm your average dog owner, but I'm really invested in canine behaviour. I do agree that there's an issue with veterinarians being "exceptions to the rule". Tell the average veterinarian that you raw-feed your dog and you'll feel the self-important wrath immediately. 😛I hate it, and I don't want to be divided from my veterinarian or any other canine handler in that way. If all else fails, I don't want to put my dog on the equivalent of Prozac (as someone who is actually on Prozac...) and having a dog with a blank expression as acceptable... And what I especially don't want are the dogs not given a chance because everyone and everything has failed them, and having to be killed as a result of rulings like this. Imagine the damage someone can do because they don't use a tool properly, but they can't go to anyone for help when all else fails? Maybe they can't afford a behaviourist or a canine specialist? And does not being able to afford a specialist mean that you are undeserving of a canine companion? I feel like there are far too many pitfalls. Should positive reinforcement be used first? Yeah, probably! I don't think anyone denies that. Is it the be-all-end-all of everything? No, and I think that could be dangerous.
Great response - direct and to the point. Any one with experience with dogs knows you have to tell them to knock it off sometimes . On occasion when they are for example chewing on a cable or trying to eat a sock - failure to correct them would result in harm to the dog. Lunging at cars has to be fixed quickly. Positive reinforcement is great for teaching them to do something but not for training them to stop doing something they find rewarding and enjoyable. Keep up the good work - your posts are appreciated and watched in the Highlands of Scotland.
Such a valid point about vet clinics! I didn't even think of that. Thank you for your thoughts! I've always struggled with the word "aversive" when talking about training. Physically restricting for any reason, even leash wearing, is by definition aversive. As always, follow the money.
I always go for the positive reinforcement first for puppies especially BUT I have always seen correction is the best way to fix a problem at the snap of a finger or a clap. This new ideology and so call “research” is gonna send a ton of dogs to shelters. I loved that comparison about holding dogs down at the vet. 🙂
I've only been an amateur trainer trying to get the best out of my dog for a few weeks. After watching many different UA-camrs, Joel has become my favorite. I appreciate his practical approach that doesn't rely on prong collars and e-collars. That being said, other trainers have dedramatized the use of these tools and I believe that if used properly they will be beneficial to certain dogs, just as the hyper positive treat based training will benefit other dogs. Personally, I quickly got sick of feeding my dog treats every two minutes and becoming an afterthought once I was left with nothing. I figured that there had to be a middle ground. Joel fits the bill. I watched some of Zak's stuff. He's not my favorite but the truth is, is that just like my dog, I'm a sponge right now and I'm learning interesting things from everyone (Joel, Upstate Canine Academy, Will Atherton )
R+ is a lot harder to implement. I think the biggest issue is people not knowing how to make themselves the reward and not knowing how to fade treats. There is only ONE command I use where my dog gets treats everytime and that's because I need that command to work every time. Guess what it does. I highly recommend Kikopup and Cog Dog Radio the podcast.
New subscriber here. Been binge watching your methods and getting it. Keep up the good work. Thanks for taking a stand. Positive always has a place. Just not exclusively.
Last August I rescued a 1.5 yr old border collie mix who had severe leash reactivity & aggression. After 10 months of trial-and-error with different positive reinforcement methods we had made very little progress, which was quite discouraging at times. The turning point was when I started implementing leash corrections, using a hybrid of techniques from Beckman and Cesar. We were able to start passing other dogs on walks and even have brief positive meetings on leash. Today, she walks brilliantly and is happy (but not overly excited) to see other dogs outside. She also runs freely at the dog park, which is so awesome to watch. There is no chance we would have reached this point with purely positive training. Thanks for your videos!
I did train my dogs before the Interwebs have become a thing and it was always clear to me, that a dog does what I want it do do, because the dog loves and respects me and that I treat my dog with love and respect. Adverse training never ever came to my mind. I still can see no reason to treat my dogs with anything but love and respect. Positive training is harder, you have to pick the proper situation, manage disturbances and in general pay much, much more attention to your dog. But your dog is your partner and your partner deserves it. And training is as much as learning about yourself as it is about learning about your partner.
Kay. Having had my arm Shredded by a pitbull because the owner would never tell it no was great. I ended up adopting that pitbull and training her myself. She doesn't attack other dogs anymore which is how she bit me when I I got in between her and my friends puppy she was trying to attack. Hilariously enough it was actually my dog that was most effective because she would go at him and that happened twice and then never again. You think my dog was using positive training methods? No he kicked her ass out of my house and wouldn't let her back in until her psychotic ass back in until she calmed down. She has one dot on her nose where he grabbed her muzzle and she drastically changed from that moment. But yeah he was using positive reinforcement...
Happy to have you speaking up for the people who end up having dogs with behavioural issues that can't be fixed with food or toys or whatever it might be. Teaching the meaning of "no" and consequenses give problematic dogs a chance to have a normal life. Thanks for speaking your mind without going after others, we just need the truth, not bashing others. Keep it up
Love your point about vet clinics... I used SR+ to have my dog let me cut his nails, then they did it at the vet (wouldn’t let me in bc of covid) and they turned it into a totally aversive experience for him... had to desensitize him all over again...I just want to quickly address the Petsmart trainers, not all of them are all positive, (I’ve had good and bad experiences there, Ive done the puppy class for socialization several times) my current Petsmart trainer is awesome and balanced, 50+ years specializing in Akitas... I wasn’t going to go to Petsmart but she came to say hi to my dog and we got talking... and she definitely does corrections
All pet owners need to pay attention and think for themselves!!! Big box stores have bought up many Vet practices in my area and are trying to take control. The price of Vet care has skyrocketed... and care has diminished. Thankfully, my Vet recently left his practice and reopened independently. Thanks Joel for your balanced approach!
@@DaveDEF82 There are a lot of leaps you are making, especially since the deep dive ("At least say something about the design of it") is exactly what he says will be discussed in a follow-up video. So you don't really have a basis to disagree with his assessment yet. What I find most entertaining about your strong reaction is how you criticize his "scientific dialogue" when this video very closely resembles a scientific abstract: we hear get some relevant background information, we know what methods/studies he is going to discuss in his next video, and we learn what conclusions he draws and will defend. That's pretty perfectly an abstract! And abstracts are placed at the top of scientific articles so the release of this video before the next one fits perfectly to the order scientific articles are written. Of course that's probably a coincidence I just got a good kick out of your reaction.
@@SarahRaeH I tried to get into the studies but was blocked by the paywalls. If they arent' willing to put the study out there there really isn't much to do. That said, one study had 17 dogs. Totally insufficient to "prove any thing. The abstract was insufficient on methodology and design altogether. If you can get the real stuff with data and details please post it. There are no copyright issues in a fair use and critique forum.
I'll say this. I had a moderate pulling issue with my dog. She wore a harness for the longest because that's what I saw Zak George do (nothing but love for him though). My dog didn't really like the harness, but she came around after I made it clear that her harness = leash = outside/walk. However, she pulls a lot more on a harness and it was _really_ difficult to communicate with her at times that the pulling is *not* the desired behavior and by walking loosely on a leash, good things happen! I didn't really know what to do for a while until I came across Joel's videos here on the channel + another video I watched about using a harness (I'll cite it below). What I learned is that using a harness to try and communicate unwanted leash behavior with your dog can be ineffective. Even the no-pull harness I had wasn't always doing that. So I simply took the harness out of the equation and used her (flat) collar instead. I took her out for a walk the next morning and it's like I was walking a completely different dog. I gave a couple leash pops and worked on redirecting her back to me by stopping and walking in the other direction. She understood pretty quickly what I expected from her. A couple days later, I ordered a gentle leader and started further reinforcing the leash walking behavior I wanted. We're still working on issues such as reactivity to other dogs on walks (she flails around with the gentle leader on). But so far I'm really proud of her and I'm excited for what the future holds! Video about using harnesses: ua-cam.com/video/S7TCIerAx7s/v-deo.html
In my experience over a lifetime, I raise my dogs like children. Start from the very beginning establishing "rules" & routine. If my new puppy goes to whiz on the carpet he gets a "Ah, Ah, Ah" scooped up & immediately taken out, once he goes he gets a treat & what a good boy! That balance of correction, redirection, and praise when he does what I want where I want it works amazingly well. (I house train in a matter of like 3 days other than the rare accident cuz they're still babies, those accidents are My fault) While I lean heavily on positive reinforcement, I do use correction when necessary........usually the latter isn't very often & because I've established a good relationship with the dog it typically only takes once unless dealing with a stubborn personality. My great pyr puppy got tall enough to counter serf, and he did it with gusto whether there was anything on a table or counter or not. (curious) He got voice corrected. If he returned to the behavior he'd get a hand clap & voice corrected. Since he's super smart & quite an independent thinker, it took the body block added in to get the idea he's not allowed to counter serf even if it's a tasty steak sitting on the table within his reach. No raised voice, I didn't even physically touch him. Just firm.......I am the parent, you are the child sort of attitude from me. I'm all for setting a dog up for success, but if a dog is so set up for success he never encounters real life situations......such as open garbage cans, food on tables.......and so on, how is he going to learn to leave them alone? Most of the time redirection works fine. With an independent thinker, success is quite limited & I've found correction is required. Now I've had a 100 lb aggressive dog prior to my pyr. He came to me that way as a very young pup. Positive reinforcement didn't work well with his aggression, he paid no attention to it at all. Correction (as I mentioned prior) & patient stubbornness on my part, worked. I used positive reinforcement as much as possible but when he displayed any hint of aggression I immediately corrected.....every. single. time. It worked so well that as a grown dog I could literally stop him dead in his tracks with a simple finger snap, then he'd turn & look at me waiting for whatever the next command would be. BALANCE is key & knowing when a correction (and how to correct properly per situation) is needed.
Positive reinforcement doesn't mean being a push over. As someone who grew up heavily trained in how to be aversive I won't do it again. I also won't have a rescue again for a very long time when I'm through my current lot so lot better chance of not having a behavioral nightmare.
i work at an ONLY positive reinforcement dog daycare and it kills me to not re-direct or correct bad behaviour. my dogs are absolute angels in comparison to what i deal with at work; my boss and coworkers' opinion is that there is no such thing as a stubborn dog - "they aren't stubborn, just not motivated".... i, a husky and malamute owner, had no idea what to say to that. only 2 of my coworkers have their own dogs and surprise surprise - their dogs have no manners whatsoever, pull on leash, jump and punch their noses into peoples face, take things like towels or anything they can reach.... i'm the only one who works there that uses corrections on my own dogs and they make me feel like i'm abusive for it. yet all 3 of my dogs are a hell of a lot more balanced than any of theirs.... it's a bit insane what some people will put up with
Another thing that people are forgetting is that it is not always a puppy you have to train, sometimes it is a huge aggressive confused dog. That is where people with the positive reinforcement are missing the point.
I’m just a regular dog owner. I watched Zak’s video on this topic, he did do it well, and thought then, “ uuuumm, and how is this going to work ? “ The concept goes against nature, so dogs are pack animals, if one does something wrong, it gets told off by another, the dog thats getting po doesn’t run to get a stashed bone, and bring that to the annoying dog to make it stop annoying. No, it’ll do a quick snap, growl, whatever to put the dog in it’s place. That doesn’t bring into the equation “Humans” and the problems we cause for our dogs, which is way more usually than any dog could do to another dog. I’m not for prong collars or e-collars, just because there is so much room for error. No need for cruelty in any form. But there must be a consequence to a dogs unexceptable behaviour, and a treat is not going to do it as it’s lungeing and trying to attack every dog or child it see’s. Ugh, it’s so not going to work.
@@DaveDEF82 Professional dog trainers aren’t the majority of dog owners. There is a place for positive reinforcements with treats, no arguments there, but there has got to be a consequence to unexceptable behaviours, as we’ve seen Joel’s “Pop method” on a normal collar works very well, it’s not a harsh method, and he uses treats in cases also, depending on the situation. Humans may have domesticated dogs, geez half the breeds nowadays wouldn’t survive in nature anymore, they are human made, not nature made, but they still have natural instincts from 100’s of years on this earth. Personalities all different, treats will work great for some, but not all, depending on circumstance. My dog GSD, couldn’t care less about treats, toys, but loves to know she’s done well with praise and a head scratch, but falls apart with “ Pop method”, doesn’t work for her. I can’t recall saying anything about domesticating wild animals. I have 2 parrots that i’ve trained with positive reinforcements only, as you cannot discipline a bird, gets you no where. These birds will never be domesticated, they have a flock mentality, parrots are only 1-2 generations away from their wild ancestors, so they are not domesticated and not treated as such. But, they are not an animal that would ever understand discipline, but they do understand positive reinforcement. Dogs are completely different with their thought process.
prong collars and e-collars have their place - in the hands of someone experienced enough and intelligent enough to use them correctly and not harm the dog in any way. a prong collar should never HURT the dog; it should just put ENOUGH pressure in a QUICK movement to pretty much say "hey! wrong way!"(if your dog is trying to run into the road for instance) but i agree there is far too much room for error and they really shouldn't be available for just ANYONE to buy as they can certainly cause issues if misused. i've seen people being dragged by their dog wearing a prong collar - THAT will cause damage and should not be used by that person.
Completely Unrelated to this but I’ve been using your recent Dutch Sheppard training session as guidance for my own dog, I wanted to show my boyfriend the second half because you made really good points when speaking to the couple (owners) about the behavior but the video is gone :/ will it be reposted?
I really like how you both discuss, like grown up people 👍🏼 With my little dog, who is not a problem in any way, it’s great to use positive reinforcement and she learns quickly and great with it. But my GSD-mix boy is no joke, with former owners he already bit people. He does definitely need a stronger guide line and reaction to bad behavior. I learn a lot from your videos and I adopted the „no nonsense attitude“. We go to an experienced trainer every week and it’s absolutely great, how this dog developed until today. He‘s calmer, ignores cyclists and joggers, he meets other dogs and likes it and I can take him everywhere without any fuss. For teaching him new fun stuff, I go with the positive reinforcement and it’s very good, too. But in critical situations, I have to be very firm and sometimes the correction looks harsh, but I don’t want him to bite again and go crazy for absolutely no reason. I‘ve got dogs since 20 years and my first dog was a Rottweiler, I adopted him as an adult. He was fear based reactive and very able to jump and nip people, he didn’t like. My second dog was a small Spanish dog… she was fierce and very independent. Survived 6 years on the streets. She always made clear, she‘s no joke. With both dogs I worked with a mixture of different „methods“ and this worked best for us. But of course some people criticized me very hard, because I was „too rough“ in their eyes. My question always was: „Do you rather have that dog bite people? Please take him/her, it’s free, a gift. But please don’t bring it back if it bites people!“
I think there are a lot of good methods for dog training, the bigger problem is the owner’s unconsistency about their strategy. I also think, that the best is that you choose your training strategy based on your individual dog. For example: I trained my first dog sit, stay, basic comands and tricks with positive reinforcemant, and he’s pretty reliable on them, but i couldn’t teach him leash walking with it, because after months of trainings he only did it well for food. I changed the way of training, and with corrections and redirections he learned it in 2-3 weeks acceptable. My other dog learns leash walking now, I use positive reinforcemant (she’s a puppy), and she picks it up pretty fast, even without treats, i only praise her when she’s doing well, and she really wants to make me happy. After days, she walks pretty nice next to me on loose leash. In my opinion you have to be open minded for different training methods, and look for what your dog picks up fast. (I’m not a drog trainer, but thats my experience). I’m really interest in what you think about my opinion. Sorry for my english, its not my main language.
People who say balanced training is cruel need to watch some videos of dogs mauling and killing other animals. Sure, we love our dogs but at the end of the day they are animals and certain dogs can be dangerous in the wrong hands. I used to be positive only until I got a dog that I raised to be reactive then totally changed my outlook. Loving your dog means setting boundaries/rules and not letting them do whatever they want.
New sub here ! I love that response, I use common sense in dog training. I will reward what I want to see and discourage what I don’t want to see. I’m trying to be as fair to the dog as possible. I recently start ecollar training so my hunting dog with huge prey drive can spend time leash free and safe
Wow. Good for you for standing up. I'm not a dog trainer, just a dog owner, but I use a combination in working with my dogs. It's becoming more and more clear that "they" just want a one-size-fits-all, cookie-cutter society. Soon, we'll be issued our adult onesies. I just subscribed to your channel based on this video. Thank you.
My philosophy of dog training (and I'm not a professional, just an owner) is to use the least aversive methods possible. That said, I'm open to the idea that, especially for discouraging behaviors, mildly aversive approaches may be the most effective and humane in the long run. I'm a big fan of Zak George but I don't think that he's the last word or anything like that. So I found his video on this topic to be very interesting, but I retain a little skepticism about the extremism of the statement. At the end of the day, I'll be very interested to hear what you have to say about the studies that went into this position. That's what it comes down to for me. I've seen enough trainers to know that they are almost all biased, one way or another. I think a lot of approaches can work, but that doesn't mean they are the best, so I don't take anyone's word as gospel. Sound scientific studies are the most convincing thing to me. So I'm very interested in hearing more about the quality of the data behind these conclusions.
If you have the patience to read the literature, Patricia McConnell is a good place to start. If you want a shortcut, many of the modern methods of dog training had their start with Dr. Ian Dunbar [Obviously he didn't invent training - I think hunters and herders did that ;-) but he did many of the studies and practical applications, before ethology within zoology was applied to dog training ]. Dunbar described many of the current methods for training, 30 - 40 years ago. Current trainers read his books or authors who read his books ... or reinvented some of the methods. ;-) There are two issues - Training behaviors, Or managing behaviors in emergency situations before the training is complete. What we do when a puppy runs out the front door, can be very different than how we train the puppy to sit at all entryways...
@@hanksimon5433 Thank you for the primer. I'm still very interested in a survey of these recent studies, but it really helps to have a background to even understand them. I'll check these out (probably starting with the shortcuts😉)
As a vet I resent your assertion that 'vets use aversive techniques behind closed doors' I only work with horses now but worked in mixed practice for 12 many dogs of all kinds and never did or saw this.
thank you soooooo much for bringing up realistic expectations. There are a million videos saying I shouldn't crate my puppy for 2 hours before she's ready... but I got shit to do! I gotta go to work! I need to go grocery shopping. What else can I do?
I stumbled on your videos thanks to the algorithm, just watched your GOAT list. When I saw how much of your method has to do with Prince as your partner I thought, " Just like Ceasar!". I have a lot of respect for him and you after watching a lot of your content. Thanks for your work!!!!
I've been training dogs for 40 years since the time when the only methods we were taught to train with were pressure based but in the last 10 years ever since this positive only movement has taken hold more dogs have showed up on my doorstep in a back harness tugging their owners up the driveway with a plethora of behavioral issues then I can count. When Zac reported on this my vet tech daughter made the same comment vets and technicians handle dog with force all the time, they don't have the time to treat a dog into submission
That is treatment not training. Training needs to be effective. Say what you want research shows Aversive training does work in the short term and does the opposite in the long term.
Suzanne you would have to define aversive training. I pretty much only teach my dogs what they cannot do - and I have two dogs (9 years and 14 years) that I will emphasize are fully spirited, but will not leave my property - and I live on a busy street. They learned this in their first year. I have had 4 off leash dogs like this . . . I teach them the rules and they can do whatever they want within those rules. They choose to not break harmony with the pack - and they have never been told to stay on the property or given praise or treats for doing so. I do compliment them for being well behaved overall. My experience says aversive works in the long term.
@@JenniferBealeunleashpr my mom seems to not understand that punishment =/= aversive. Basically, I've trained myself to spot what my dog is about to do, and if I know they're about to do something I don't like, I get their attention and put them in a position that I want them to be in. Mostly 'sit' or 'down' if they're being too much.
@@JenniferBealeunleashpr Aversive training in this case is something negative that you do to discourage unwanted behavior. Choke chains, shock collars, physical punishment, etc. I have noticed that shock collar users never seem to be done with the shock collar. It is more like putting a fence up. If you have a fence it works while it's there. if you take a fence down, dogs will leave the area.
Joel is the only one I trust, can’t get enough of your videos.. Your overall logic, and especially the gentle leader is a game changer.. Once I watched hours of your videos, I finally got a 70lb Pitbull-Boxer to get in line. All day long bro, all day long! You rock Joel.
I think people forget that purely positive trainers don't exist. They still "punish" by withholding (whether it be food, attention, etc.), and saying "no" in a calm voice to teach the dog what they want instead. What they are actually against is using aversive punishment (moments of physical discomfort and or pain, sounds loud enough to snap dogs out of fixation, etc). balanced trainers do not just punish dogs over and over, they are BALANCED. they use positive reinforcement all the time with food, praise, and toys but understand this is only PART of the picture. Most people do not have the time devoted to only positively reinforce their dogs without any substantial correction. It's just not realistic. Maybe it can work for people with huge fields, staying home all the time, etc. I love Zak George but I learned I could not solely use his methods. Worked well for some things but definitely not behavioral issues and I did not want my dog to continue practicing poor behaviors. I also didnt have the luxury to create tons of distance if my dog was too reactive and wasn't redirecting their attention to me. What sold me was seeing the dogs of balanced trainers. Proof is in the owner's dogs. Dogs of balanced trainers are undeniably so amazing, full of love for their owners, and insanely obedient. I like to look at results and the results of balanced training (done correctly) exceeds positive reinforcement only training.
I have worked tirelessly with my 2 yr old Bordoodle using mostly positive methods his whole life. Then I used a prong collar, due to him not getting better with reactivity. This made his reactivity worse. I then found Joel's methods. Joel's methods have done the most for me so far. I love Zak and have followed him for years. However Joel's recent post with the dog who "needed" a gentle leader was just what I needed. I have purchased the gentle leader and have used it a few times. My dog has been heeling better and reacting less. At first I felt guilty, like I wasn't doing "it" right. But after hearing Joel say, some dogs just need it, I feel so much better going with my gut and doing my best to read my dog and what he needs. I not sure why I needed to hear it, but THANKS JOEL! Thanks for the discussion.
Imagine a world where adults all behaved like adults. 🤯 That’s what I love about Beckman. He treats his viewers and peers as adults and respects the opinions of those he may disagree with and encourages us all to look at those other viewpoints and make our own decisions. It’s what keeps us coming back and looking forward to everything he puts out. After owning dogs throughout a lifetime of 50 plus years, I have never been more informed and confident about what I am doing to train my puppy as I am now. The proof is that he is also now a very informed and confident dog. We have much gratitude for you Beckman!
Not sure if you'll notice this comment but I was wondering if you could do a video with reactivity inside of the car while driving? My dog consistently tries to come upfront, he will choke himself to do so since he is buckled in with his harness or if we have something locking it - he goes completely berserk and has a major panic attack because he can't get up front. He also barks at other dogs he sees out the window. We have tried nearly everything in our current power and it's just not getting better.
YES, PLEASE! “A-How-To” video on reactivity in the car! First off: THANK YOU JOEL, for all of your dog training videos, your methods are transformative!! Since successfully using your loose leash walking method on my sweet 6 year old female Doberman, adopted a year ago, I’ve also seen behavior improvement inside the car, using a version what you showed in your video for reactivity inside the house But need more help! She has mild anxiety while we are driving and does loud barking at random pedestrians & drivers, she goes especially bonkers at motorcycles, bicycles & skateboarders PLEASE DO A VIDEO ON INSIDE CAR REACTIVITY, JOEL!
I used to do dog training at a local PetSmart and let me just say, it was a nightmare at times! I often found myself in contention with management because they just could not see that the “PetSmart way” was NOT the way dog training should be done. I tried very hard to reason with them, but to no avail. I’d say I’m more of what one might call, a balanced trainer and prefer to have many tools in the toolbox, just like any good mechanic would. If someone expect late to fix a dog with just a “screwdriver” they’re going to run into problems and most likely fail that dog and it’s owners! Thanks Joel for the video and I’ll be sure to locate the other video you mentioned concerning these issues.
I know someone also who also used to train dogs there. That person told me that they don't sell Ecollars because that helps them sell more lesson packages.
@@solideomusical I have a friend who is a certified dog trainer. And they mainly use e-collars. She specializes in training more difficult dogs. People leave them with her for 2 weeks, she has her own pack as well.
I'm new to this positive/aversive discussion. I appreciate the Zac/Joel perspectives. My first two dogs were older when they came to me and didn't need a lot of training. For the little training they needed it was suggested I use a choke collar (the kind with prongs). I struggled with that as it seemed too aggressive for the training I felt they needed. Redirection seemed to work just as well. My new dog is also a shelter dog and only 3 yrs old. He's a 'runner' and needs a lot of training. Redirection wasn't enough but I didn't want to be cruel either. I'm trying positive reinforcement as much as possible but now feel more confident using aversive as well.
These methods you are talking about...I have seen children with parents who used the same methods on them and their kids were brats! It does not work on kids or dogs. To me, it's a form of manipulation with no good results. My pittie knows without a doubt that I adore him, but he knows I am in charge. I am not abusive, but I do stand my ground with him. Years ago I had a trainer that got abusive towards me when I told him that I didn't agree with his reward method for training. He used fowl language in a public setting to tell me what he thought of me! I'm with you Beckman! I appreciate so much your approach.
It's so ironic how the people promoting "purely positive" are the most VERBALLY ABUSIVE people out there. (same with vegans and extreme-left people) Like, seriously? Are you really trying to convince me to be "purely positive" when you are the exact opposite of that term? Sheesh.
I will firstly admit I am biased. But I have to say, the idea of not saying "no" in child raising DOESN'T mean you always say yes no matter what. I was raised with this principle by parents who had child psychology studies 20+ years back and I later went on to study a module of child psychology in university. What I noticed when comparing parents today (not all but many) to what I was raised like, they tend to extrapolate "don't say no" to no discipline. I was raised with rules. It wasn't "don't touch that" it was "please leave that alone." It wasn't "don't get close to the dog" it was "the dog doesn't know you well and it is uncomfortable, please keep your distance until it gets to know you better." What I see many parents do now is see their kid do something bad but go "we don't believe in saying no to our child" and don't do anything about it. I've seen redirection and reinforcement of expected behaviour both work very well with children, but what I also see is many people THINK that's what they do when instead they simply do nothing. I will not address dog behaviour because I have no experience there. I expect some commonalities, especially in the sense that most positively trained dogs who are severely misbehaved are probably, in fact, untrained dogs of owners who THINK they trained them positively.
@@minano-nim6795 The reason why that method works for human children is because human children can understand what you're saying to them. Whereas a dog doesn't understand human language nor human behaviour, therefore it simply cannot be applied to them. Animals are simple - they think in black and white, yes and no. The problem with purely positive is that it is a form of dog training where you guide your dog to do things you want it to do. But what if the dog decides that it won't do what you want it to do no matter what? What if it decides to maul a baby? Besides, just look at how dogs teach other things, and there is your answer. Dogs give corrections to each other all the time. ESPECIALLY mother dogs who are taking care of her puppies. She will growl and nip and pin down puppies when they misbehave. She is saying "No". If dogs can say no to each other, why can't we?
So much respect for your work! Just got off the phone with a positive reinforcement trainer and hard pass! We tried every trick under the sun to get our dog to stop barking, a punishment (ie shaking a can with nails in it, an idea I adapted from your video of slamming the door) is the only think that’s worked and it worked almost immediately!
I dead agree to what u said I think around 4.25- 4.30/33 regarding correction . I follow your videos and use your methods and they work very very well . I even tried the one u said “I got it “ it does work .
Dogs use physical corrections on each other, so......I totally agree with you. I have a dog with aggression issues. How the hell do treats fix a dog wanting to rip your face off????
When I was 7 years old in 1982, my father got me a Pit Bull for my birthday. No one had ever heard of Pit Bulls at that time (was a nice few years before they were all over the news). We trained him, and the other two Pits we we got immediately after, following a Barbara Woodhouse book we got from the library and her TV show on PBS. We got them all choke chains and used them, per her instructions, to correct them. It worked. I was a 7 year old girl walking, by myself, a mile to the "stores" on a sketchy back road, with 3 Pit Bulls. Never pulling, all slack leads. But now, Barbara Woodhouse's training is seen as abuse. A quick snap of the chain stopped any behaviour. One of my dogs was aggressive towards unknown dogs. She was gamey as hell in a way that any animal that doesn't live with us must die (we later found out that the breeder fought her mother to a week before she gave birth), but a snap of the chain, and she would look at you with that big Pitty smile and wag her tail.
Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. In order for our craft to advance, discussion like this is imperative. Look forward to the comments!
They completely ignore the stress of aggressive dogs every time they come in contact with any triggers. It's possible, with good trainers, to fix that in a couple weeks, sometimes just a few sessions. The stress from training with those tools just a few times is incomparable to the stress they would otherwise keep having, possibly for years.
Love you, Zak!
🐕❤🐕
Thanks for getting the conversation going. Much respect.
I like your videos Zak, I used one to teach my girl how to beg/sit pretty. However, as a whole, Beckmans has been the best all round for dog behaviour corrections.
However, keep it up you're both doing good things in different ways.
@@Flippokid completely agree!!!
Spend a few sessions with balanced methods yes there's stress or spend months possibly years trying to counter condition treat your way out of it, while the dog is stressed the whole time!
Reformed ex Petsmart trainer here... Positive reinforcement is best for most situations. I do also agree that other methods are necessary for some dogs too. Corrections are necessary as well. You can't teach your kids with nothing but praise and candy, sometimes they need a time out or grounded.... I completely agree with you
You forgot a butt whoopin
Petsmart trainers are not dog trainers... i get at least 30 customers a month who came from petsmart training and learned nothing important to have a confident & calm dog. Petsmart trainers dont even get proper training so ur opinion aint shit
@@1983Santiago Please know that not all people who start as Petsmart Pet trainers are proper Dog trainers. Also, to outright say someone's opinion is "shit" without even knowing half of who I am... Shows your ignorance and possible quick response to think "ONLY MY WAY WORKS SO F EVERYONE ELSE" Not one way of training is "superior" to the other, nor is it a one size fits all thing. I've had plenty of successful students during and after my Petsmart days. Using many methods. Petsmart is strictly positive reinforcement. And sometimes that doesn't work on every dog.
@@GirLee316 ok
@@1983Santiago meant to say Pet trainers not Dog trainer.... Look at the uniform...
Zak's approach helped me with a dog who responded to it. Yours is helping me with a dog who doesn't. I feel both are balanced; no one is abusing dogs. "Aversive" and "cruel" are far from synonymous.
Exactly.
I think that there are good things to learn from everyone. After reading that it was cruel and inhumane, I just started using a basic rope leash to train my dog. Works wonderfully. Barely pulls, have a good tool to catch her attention when needed, she gets excited when she sees it. It means fresh air outside, some treats etc. The last thing I want to do in the world is harm her
@@dcdc139 The last thing I want to do is harm my dog too. That's why I refuse to use physical correction that I wouldn't use on someone else's 2 year old child.
The argument isn’t about whether punishment to modify behavior is most effective. The question here appears to be: which method of reinforcement is best.
Positive reinforcement vs negative reinforcement.
Reward vs aversive.
The old “yank and crank” style escape avoidance dog training is dated. Science has disproven its efficacy repeatedly. It’s obsolete in the sport world. Even police departments and military trainers now use positive / rewards based training.
Proof is in the pudding: compare how they perform. Look at how fast they change positions and general disposition. It’s obvious how each dog was trained.
Dogs trained this way are no longer competitive. That’s why nobody does it anymore. What you get is an unhappy dog who begrudgingly performs commands out of fear and grows to hate you.
It’s reinforcing behavior through the dogs motivation to avoid the punishment. Fear. Stress. (For disobeying).
Who wants a dog to perform commands out of fear?
Why would you want to cause your dog stress?
Here’s how they differ:
1) Dog comes quickly, happily and excitedly to receive a reward from his favorite person.
2) Dog comes slowly with his head down fearful of getting punished by someone hes afraid.
I don’t think the technique of dragging your dog over to where you called him from works very well for training recall
…maybe 20 years ago.
People bring their dogs to you and you just bark out commands and give them corresponding leash corrections. How do you even know those dogs know those commands?
Do you even like animals?
Anger issues in the past?
What exactly do you train dogs to do?
Be submissive?
It’s like youre pissed at the dogs all the time. Iron fist dog training. Easy on the doggies bro.
This comment is too logical for the internet.get out
@@sevenohm3375 Why not use positive reinforcement to train your dog new stuff you want him to do, and use a little negative reinforcement to quickly tamp down some instinctive behaviors that that dog wants to do but is not acceptable in human society. Seems to me a balanced approach is simply the fastest way from point A to point B. All positive and all negative both give slower results than an appropriate mix of the two.
I want to say thank you to both Joel and Zak for having this conversation and starting it amongst each other communities. I go back in forth between a lot of methods. And I think we all incorporate ideologies from both people. I think this new statement will allow us to all come together once again to see where everyone stands and help each other out. We all want to show love and care for our dogs. We all want them to love and feel the world around us in a positive way. Onward we go!
The loose leash method you show us, with the correction, worked wonders on my dog. He has been pulling for 8 years, I have tried so many methods with positive reinforcement, but it never worked. If it worked, it only lasted a short time and my dog was always a fast walker, stressing by my side wanting to go as fast as he could. With the method at the door ("is he with me, or not?"), giving a tug at the leash when he got to the end of the leash, letting him go if he wanted to and then correcting him if he went too far, using multiple stops on a walk to check if he is "with me", well..my dog no longer pulls, he walkes beside me like he has never done anything else. I am beyond happy!!!!!!!! Best wishes from a subscriber in Norway
Hello how are you
As a veterinary professional myself, I am confident in my assertion that veterinary professionals don’t know JACK DIDDLY SQUAT about dog behavior/training. They know the physiology, not mentality, of the pets they treat. I am CONSTANTLY having to correct/educate my coworkers and many are left in awe when I am able to do things with some of the more problematic animals that most of them could only dream of bc they just don’t understand basic dog communication and body language.
God bless you.🐕🐾🐱 thank you.
My first dog was a 3 month old sheltie that I trained from a book 🙂 when I was 19. She was very affection oriented and praise oriented. I never gave her treats and never had to scold her. BUT this was before the days of walking your dog so although she would drop on a dime when the command was given, she was never properly leash trained. As I have had more dogs and trained more dogs I have learned that most of them are food oriented and the walk has become a big deal. My current rescue is a little guy, a Lhasa apso mix with a sweet disposition unless another dog enters his territory. Then he becomes Cujo. I hired a trainer and had my first experience with positive only training. She actually told me never to say "no" to him because it meant nothing to him. Really? Also told me not to use my slip lead which up until then had been working very well. I was told to avoid. That's not a solution. For this I paid over $300. I really enjoy your videos and hope to come across one that will guide me in allowing other dogs in my house! 😉
That’s my experience with vets as well. It extends to horses as well, farriers are this way most times. And I’ve never met a vet that knew anything at all about the horses they worked on.
@@anneckman5828 Good thing I don't believe in positive reinforcement alone. When I say NO sternly, our dogs know what that means and they listen. And good thing they are small breeds LOL.
As a former vet tech, I agree :)
And this is why I love Beckman. He doesn't bash other trainers or methods but definitely admits when he doesn't align with certain ideas and will tell you why.
Yes!! I second what you’re saying here
Yes, I like his approach as well. And that's not the only reason why the positive reinforcement law (or a law regarding any other training method) will never pass and get a green light. All dog trainers, behaviorists, veterinarians, behavior correction organizations and businesses, as well as all other closely related organizations, private or otherwise, depend on zoological, behavioral and other legal, official scientific studies approved by government organizations and research entities. No law, regulation or rule regarding dogs, dog training or anything revolving around animals and pets in general, will pass, unless there are scientific studies with enough evidence met, to pass the changes through. The purely positive reinforcement ''law/rule'' will never happen, as there is no field under the entire scientific branch of biology, including fields like zoology, physiology and ethology, with studies containing evidence that supports such training methods. No dog trainer, behaviorist or anyone else, no matter who or how famous he or she is, should ever have their word taken over the word of a biologist aka. a zoologist, ethologist or a physiologist, because they don't dictate the rules, they don't dictate what's right or wrong, biologists do - and the entire core of biology, revolves and supports ONLY and SOLELY scientific aka. holistic approach to dog training. They DO NOT support positive reinforcement method, dominance method, mirror method or any other method other than the scientific, holistic training method. The supposed law of positive reinforcement would and will never pass, no matter how popular it gets, because there is no scientific evidence to support it (or any other method of training,) over the scientific, holistic training method.
If any law regarding dog training was to be passed, they one and only method that would ever be approved over all others would be the scientific method aka. ''holistic method.''
He called "them" "crazy" like 10 times....
@@jeffmilum5858 not the other trainers though.
Preach it! I love that you responded and took a stand on this ridiculous agenda. I like Zak - he's a wonderful at shaping behaviors and I've learned a lot from him to teach tricks. But trainers like you and Tom Davis are teaching practical, real world techniques for dealing with challenging problems. Keep up the good work!
@@DaveDEF82 Loved that video. Every dog case is different. Kudos to Tom for seeking advice. That was a really creative technique.
I don't know Tom Davis, but I've had specific problems that I've looked up on this channel which were only solved by Beckman's training. I tried other stuff too, didn't work. Now I just go here directly.
@@DaveDEF82 Wait, you fault Tom Davis for incorporating 'scatter feeding' into his balanced training? Why? I saw the video you referenced and thought it commendable that he sought advice.
I just think people aren't understanding what's being told. All I hear from Zak is counter conditioning. Which is a time based approach.
It still uses all 4 quadrants of operant conditioning. the issue is most here aren't understanding the positive only training. Even the positive only trainers themselves 😒. 1. Negative punishment is used when a treat or stimulus is withheld from the dog. 2. Positive punishment is used when telling the dog to leave something alone and pay attention to you, especially if you aren't allowing the dog near the stimulus(youre adding the pressure of yourself to the equation) 3. Negative reinforcement is used when you remove the dog from the stimulus to decrease aggression, or reactivity, which you don't want, aka adding distance if the dog is too reactive, then working the dog again. 4. Positive reinforcement is used when the dog approaches the stimulus correctly, and is rewarded for their effort. All in micro doses, so time is the issue, thats it.
If you want to quickly change a behavior, sure aversion methods likely are far faster for hard cases. But what psychological damage is being done to the dog? We know aversion methods are bad in many cases for humans. Our recidivism rates in America tell us that. So there is a balance i think. To say positive training is a ridiculous agenda though, I believe is weird. And dismissing what's actually being done, likely because a lack of proper explanation, I probably explained counter conditioning wrong also but. Its working for my high prey drive staffy.
I train him with his food on walks and in the house so he only eats when we walk or train. Massive change in his behavior within a few weeks and he is a rescue so. I'm sure SOME aversion is used in positive only training, they just don't realize it, because, most don't study pyschology enough to understand when they are using punishment and negative reinforcement or how to implement those quadrants without using physical aversion methods.
@@DaveDEF82 When people acknowledge their shortcomings I see it as a good thing- even if it takes them a while 😉
Excellent post. I agree. If these tools become banned here as they are in European countries, you will see a shelter crisis like NEVER before. Glad you posted this... I'll post my retort soon!
Hi Robert Cabral 👋
@Robert Cabral Just watched your video on the matter - perfectly said!
@@alexandradittmann8588 thank you... hope Joel takes a look... appreciated his opinion very much!
Extremely well said. Thanks 🙏
@@BDTraining @Robert Cabral
So glad you two have connected!
You are both very inspiring for an apprentice dog trainer like me.
Those studies are f"ing non-sense!
Truly hope your inputs will make a different!
Much love and respect to Mr Cabral and Mr Beckman from Sydney, Australia
✌👊
I randomly came to this channel after getting a second dog. The second dog was super chill but it was for my first dog where my wife and I had pretty much zero idea how to train an animal and the dog recently had a surgery on it's leg so we needed to be able to control the first dog. Our first dog would basically ignore our commands and would even pee on the couch. It seemed crazy to get a second dog, but we are 99% sure it was our first dog's brother. Anyway, after watching about 10 of your videos and applying what I was seeing in just two days I've noticed a dramatic improvement in our first dog. I'm so glad I found your channel and now know it's okay to do certain things to correct dog behavior when previously we thought it was wrong.
Thank you soooo much!! Really wanted your opinion on this. Since getting my puppy from abroad I've not only had positive trainers try help which hasn't worked with issues I have...but now I have a balanced trainer who agrees with all you say and I've shared your vids with as well as my friends who are all so greatful!! The change in my puppy and older dog are down to your advice! Thank you so much 😀
@@DaveDEF82 Your comments are very negative.
@@DaveDEF82 So, this approach is OK for people, but for dogs your only acceptable recourse would be drugs or euthanasia? Are there scientific studies that prove euthanasia is better for dogs than an aversive correction? I'd be interested in the conclusion section of that paper ...
"The study has clearly proven that 21% of the dogs in the balanced training cohort are suffering from anxiety evidenced by 15 seconds of a submissive posture or a temporary increase in cortisol levels. None of the dead dogs in the euthanized cohort display either of these anxiety indicators."
I’ve followed Zak for all my dog training until my latest puppy. I did all the things right but she displays rough play, dominance and was still dog reactive. I believe positive reinforcement is a core foundation but it doesn’t account for poor breeding, and genetics. I’ve had to stray away from that and learn new techniques to build a better quality of life for me and my dogs.
Balance is needed in all areas of life, and dog training is no different. You’d discipline your child, why wouldn’t you discipline your dog? You’ve gotta think about the severity of the correction, and when it’s appropriate. Negative behaviors need correction, positive behaviors need reinforcement. That’s the only way humans learn, it’s the only way dogs learn.
@@bigbossadidoss8678 Agree. No wonder kids nowadays are little criminals because they know they can get away with bad behavior. If we lock up criminals for bad behavior (although it is now a bit different), then dogs should know that there are unacceptable behavior that should be stopped or else.
This is exactly why I fostered 15 dogs last year. The owners couldn’t control them because they were afraid to tell the dogs no and gave them up. So sad.
Exactly🙌🏻
My experience is the opposite. My new rescue Sam, a large GSD with a bite history and reactivity issues has had nothing but people being scared of him and shouting NO at him. He has had 5 homes as a result as each owner gave up on him. I am building his confidence with confident leadership, lots of praise when he gets things right and calm correction when he gets things wrong. He is making excellent progress as a result.
Can say no and correct a dog, but feel free to dump it off in doggy jail and kill it. Nice!
@@cbcdesign001 That sounds great! I don't think this is about positive reinforcement "not" working, rather that sometimes its just not enough. Depending on the dog.
I've learned that my dog, while being mostly balanced/calm and a great teamplayer with ME, can be a real jerk to other dogs. And in those moments I have to get in his face a little bit - otherwise he totally forgets Im even there =_= and the better I do that, the quicker he can relax again amd actually make a dog friend (or not he doesnt have to!).
He gets love and treats but in those moments I have to say.. dude, chill out :P
Good 4 u...keep making a difference.
Agree 100 %. Positive reinforcement when possible - negative when necessary!
You said it best in another video a few weeks ago. The kids (and dogs) that no one wants to to play with on the playground (or dog park) are the ones who are only receiving positive reinforcement.
Positive reinforcement works until it doesn't. No one wants to be mean. We just want well behaved dogs who can interact with humans and people safely.
Thanks so much for your videos. They have helped us so much. Keep it up.
That should be a pinned comment!!!!
I watched your dog domination video, as I was at the end of my rope with my dog bullying me. It changed EVERYTHING! My GSP is 9 moths & was such a handful UNTIL I followed YOUR trying methods! I CANNOT THANK YOU ENOUGH! GOD BLESS YOU & YOUR FAMILY 🤩☺️🙏🤗🙏🙏🙏
I can tell you, had I used positive only with my dog who has had several homes before me and everytime got returned to the shelter due to he’s aggression, he would’ve been put down by now…
He turned out to be terribly misunderstood, under socialised and dominant… but, he loves dogs! He loves playing with dogs! He hasn’t had a day without another dog since I’ve had him, and when my other dog had operation and was in a hospital for two days he got very depressed… he has now loads of friends all different sizes and breeds loves them all and knows to not to play too rough with smaller dogs…
But he was vicious and had also some redirected aggression to handler, R+ only would’ve only led to have to put him down. I’m so grateful for this channel, we’ve benefited so much from your content.
Adopt don't shop and the no kill mentality have ruined our shelter system. You can't find a decent dog in a shelter since you can't put them down unless they are about to murder someone and even then they need a chance blah blah blah.
@@NoThankUBeQuiet animals are not objects they're living sentient beings
Keep up the good work Joel! I’ve learned more from your content than from all the others put together. Did a zoom session with you about a week ago on the Malinois puppy roughing up our toy fox terrier, you were spot on, things are much better. Thanks again!!
I hope people appreciate what a blessing it is to have so many pros sharing their time knowledge and hard earned wisdom.
Thank you. Your channel and knowledge is awesome great presentation and communication skills.
My 5 month all black male gsd and I are learning alot.
Without all the willingness to share knowledge online. He would have already stolen my dinner , the spot on the couch, bed and probably my girlfriend too.
But because of guys like you he has manners already. And asks before he has access to anything like that.
Having a trained dog like your Prince and the skills to help train him is a dream.
A dream worth the work. Thanks for the inspiration.
Thank you
I came across Joel's videos by chance, just when we got our puppy, It was meant to be!
I love that Joel puts himself out on a limb, this tells me alot about him as a person & the fact he passionately believes in what he does.
In a short period we have learnt so much regarding dogs, their behaviour, training, etc & he has made us assess ourselves & our thought process with how we have approached our training.
So many dog trainers out there that really have no idea, yes includes many vets & other dog 'experts'.
So glad to have found his channel, a bonus for my family & dogs, thank you
Mr. Beckman, thank you so much for this video! I feel like your opinion is the balanced one and I love the balanced side of dog training. A few years ago I got my first full blooded Cattle Dog. She is truly an incredible dog and is now actually my service animal as I have a disability and am currently confined to a wheelchair. It was very difficult with my girl at first because even though I was able to teach her many things because of how smart cattle dogs are she didn't respect me because I was physically incapable of backing up what I was telling her. One set of trainers actually advised me to rehome her even though she was glued to my hip because she would never be what I wanted and I would not be able to control her given my disability. But I could not give up on her like that, I knew the potential that she had. She had developed really bad reactivity to other dogs around me due to not being socialized enough as a young puppy because I was very ill at the time. But because I am stubborn, or determined lol and we got with the trainer that we have now and started working with an e-collar. While her reactive behavior has admittedly not gone entirely away it has gotten unimaginably better. She never wanted to hurt anything or anyone, thankfully. She would just simply lose her damn mind, especially on lead. I now work at that training place I began taking her to and I spend my time helping others not give up on high energy, high drive working dogs. I now have Willow, my first Cattle Dog as stated above, Titan, a 6 month old Dutch Shepherd, and I am in process currently of rescuing another heeler puppy. This is important because this is a very ableist statement! I would not have been able to keep my dog safe without the use of e-collars, let alone training them at the level that they are now. There are three main trainers that I watch on UA-cam @Beckman'sDogTraining @ZakGeorge'sDogTrainingRevolution and @UpstateCanine if I didn't do the @ correctly I apologize. I've never tried to do them in a UA-cam comment before. But please somebody talk about this! I swear to God all positive all the time simply does not work! There has to be balance...and I love Zak George, no shade at all, but you guys people give up on some great dogs!
Blessings to all!
big yes! positive reinforcement is fantastic when the dog offers the correct behaviour, but too many people focus solely on the positive reinforcement and choose to just ignore the negative behaviour rather than correcting it, leading to more issues down the road. i never trust a trainer who is extreme on either sides; my ex boyfriend is a dog "trainer"(he purely uses prong collars and "throw chains" as well as electricity to poison proof his own dogs.. i disagree with the way he does things as he actually is 100% abusive (he abused my dogs) but i also disagree with the dog daycare i work at where it's ALL positive reinforcement and NO corrections aside from saying "ah-ah" which is ridiculous when you're dealing with a 1 year old untrained great pyreneese or even a 6 month old dutchie like you have! my ex had dutch shepherds and he did NOT do enough with the male and was just purely abusive and gave no love ever - last i saw them the pup was about 10 months old and still pissing and shitting in his crate, with my ex screaming at him. the poor pup never had positive reinforcement in his life with that guy. all negative. so the puppy couldn't be around anyone without pissing everywhere and biting everyone and everything. i'm still so appalled by his actions and the fact that he has paying clients. neither extreme yields good results!!!
amen!!
If you need electric shock [pain and suffering] to train your dog, that is NOT the right breed for you. Get an easier to train dog and stop shocking them. They are illegal in most advanced countries. See copy and paste here. Also, I am a 100 pound female in my 60's and trained horses for a living, some Friesians were over 1600 pounds, without bits. I have a high drive Malenois. Never even had to raise my voice, and he is the best behaved and smartest, most well trained dog I have ever had and yes, it was thousands of hours of training. Most people lack the knowledge, skills, and patience and resort to pain [e collars, etc.[. Get a dog you can train without pain. Please. See the copy and paste. E collars are banned for a reason! "
Shock collars were first used in the 1960s, but no one asked the dogs for their opinions. Electronic shock collars are banned in Germany, Austria, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Portugal, Slovenia, Switzerland, Wales, the province of Quebec in Canada, and some states in Australia.Aug 5, 2022"
I've been really thankful that every dog owner i've met at dog parks in Kansas so far are really open to different training styles. Beit from purely positive to more being the boss type styles. The plus about being near a military base since most of the people who live in the surrounding towns are service members or live with them; so you get a lot of different opinions that don't discourage one side or the other. The majority of people use the 'being the boss' mentality more obviously since if their dog were to hurt another dog or person, that person would be in trouble by their chain of command, so they have their dogs pretty much mastered and it's really cool to see.
Yet you are still going to dog parks. Which tends to be filled with bad owners since any amount of research shows the numerous issues that occur
Sometimes positive reinforcement is warranted and other times more assertive corrections are necessary depending on the individual dog and the issue being addressed.
This!!
Exactly
That is the whole idea of "balanced dog training" that dog trainers like Joel Beckman (this Channel) promotes.
There are times for rewards, and there are times for corrections. It's just common sense. It really puzzles me why some people think only one should be used.
@@MIZZKIE IKR??!!
Totally agree,its a balance of different techniques and methods of training.
I think Zac George’s take on the findings was excellent, he was very measured in what he said and didn’t condemn anyone’s approach.
Completely agree. Zak is great and was a very measured look at this position. Beckham states that the studies are flawed, states his way is the best/only way but cites no studies to support his position. Also has no support for his statement that big box stores are driving this. Sounds like conspiracy theory.
He has condemned balanced trainers though in the past and caught hell for it. Glad to see he is learning to be less caustic.
First of all,
You do a great job!
You are Not wrong
I Had the winner of one of the first Meeker CO. World sheep dog championships teach me some things. He said, “does that behavior make you uncomfortable?”
I said, “Yes” he said, then make him uncomfortable, as spontaneously as you can and get good at it. He said, if he was right here you could raise your voice or kick dirt or clap your hands. Those are all things that he doesn’t like.
At that time I had a nearly finished trial ready border collie who was pushing the sheep too hard on a cross drive 300 yards away.
He hollered to me, “take his sheep away”
That is what makes the sheepdog most uncomfortable. I blew my whistle hard and laid him down. His sheep moved away while he is was lying down. So in affect, I employed the stop button (no) that I installed on him when we agreed to became puppy, dog and master.
So since then I employed that same tactic every time I wanted or needed to intercept the dogs perceived intentions. You know! Like, “no means no!” Every time! Taught early and reinforced often.
Hence, I didn’t run into all these problems that need to be “positively reinforced” to correct. It makes no sense.
Just MO.
PS
My brother had the same “people” behavioral problems when he was breaking colts.
Rarely is it the dog or horse!
I so agree with you. I love zak george but sometimes you need “adverse” methods. Obviously try positive stuff first. It’s a stupid study. It’s all about control. Of course we love our pets and want the best treatment for them. I believe some dogs benefit even more from adhesive methods. Some dogs are aggressive and need these methods.
Exactly! My pup is romainan Street dog although not lived on streets I NOW know its in their genes and my pup has a real issue with food aggression so working on him now with these methods as treats clicker just didn't work esp during the incidents ...
It’s like saying use Prozac for all mental health conditions. Like us dogs are varied and have
Varied temperaments.
Exactly, I have 2 rescued border collies. One is a female, sweet like you cant believe, you cant tell "no" to her because she literally gets depressed, tricks and praises do it for her, she is just so happy to work and being called good girl!. Then I rescued a male, treats mean nothing to him, he takes them, slovers all over my hand and then he carries on on his bad behaviour, he is mischevious and unruly, likes to do his own stuff, trying to control him I found this channel and Joel's methods have helped me A LOT: we can walk nicely. I even used a prong at first but he graduated that with Joel's help.
Here is the thing: I'm all on board with positive reinforcement. i just wanna see an aggressive dog be cured through that idea. Once I see it I'll believe it. Until then, I'll keep using aversive when I need them.
@@DaveDEF82 Do you have videos of fixing a severely leash aggressive dog being able to safely play (without a muzzle!) with several dogs within the same day? Didn't think so. If you do have video of this using *only* positive reinforcement, I'd love to see it.
@@DaveDEF82 the word of the day for you is supercilious!
@@DaveDEF82 Pardon?
First, I don't pretend to know *everything* about dog training and have only trained five dogs - only one of which was my own.
Second, you took a long guess to believe that the only person I listen to is Beckman. (I have watched both of Zak George's recent series, just so you know)
Third, as for the word "aversive," (the previous comment had a typo 🙄) I have long known what it means and used it here because that is how Beckman was addressing the training corrections that he uses, so it was appropriate.
Fourth, please don't tell me I'm illiterate without knowing me first.
And lastly, I don't train like Beckman - I've actually never used his methods because I have had no need to. But he is an honest trainer and is successful and has helped many dogs and owners move on with a happier life.
Now let's both just train our own dogs in a way that makes them and us happy. Agree to disagree, the saying goes. Have a nice day and happy training!
-SillyPup
I’m still waiting for the R+ only tribe to start advocating we remove puppies from their mothers at birth since they routinely apply physical corrections 😂
look up Michael Shikashio.
My husky is not food or treat motivated and every "positive only" trainer gave up on him very quickly. With your video's and learning canine body language with a balance of operant punishment and positive reinforcement, my dominate boy was able to be successful in dog parks and he absolutely LOVES dog parks and hanging out with his buds. I have said it before and I will say it again, you are the best. Balto and I thank you.
I just finished a 6 week puppy course at Petsmart last week. My trainer did not follow the positive reinforcement only training. Most of the was positive and giving treats and praise and all that but not all of it. I’m sure if corporate found out she’d be fired. She’s a retired police officer who was in charge of training the K-9 unit and before that she was a horse trainer. She does training classes at Petsmart part time for something to do. She had us doing leash corrections and recommended gentle leaders to some of use. She uses spray bottles on some of the puppies. She wasn’t afraid to stomp her feet really loud or yell no or pop the leash to get the dogs attention. I think I got lucky with getting her as my trainer bc from what I’ve heard most Petsmart trainers have very little training. I got the classes given to me as a gift so that’s why I went and luckily it wasn’t too bad.
I had a similar experience at PetSmart. The trainer though was in his 20s - not close to the same experience yours was. I was interested in the classes primarily for my dog to be around other dogs and be in a highly stimulating environment while training. Was also good to just get another trainer's input and have multiple tools in the toolbox.
I hope she has plans for when she gets caught, and maybe even a lawyer. I am so afraid of the consequences if Petsmart finds out what she is doing.
I pray she never gets caught.
She sounded like a really good trainer! I did a citizens police academy course some years ago. Part of it was showing us how they train the K9 police dogs. They didn't mess around.
@@MIZZKIE could she really get sued? She’s not actually doing any of the corrections and stuff herself. She’s having the owners do it. Petsmart reached out to her and asked her to come work for them. The manager of my local store that is.
Sounds like you got a gooden there 👍
Next time you take your dog to the Vet and they want to take the dog from the exam room to the back room, GO WITH THE DOG. If they ask why, tell them you just want to observe. If they say no, that is a RED FLAG.
I switched my doggo over to raw food when he was approx. 6-7 months old. He was having some allergic reactions after a few months and I couldn't pinpoint the issue. (found out he developed/had a chicken-intolerance) I took him to the vet after I thought he was intolerant to one of his food items, and after 30 mins in the vet (most of that time I was alone in the exam room, and my pup was in the "backroom"), I have a woman come to me and tell me she truly believes we should do a full x-ray (like 1.5k total for a bunch of shit) in case he is internally bleeding from any bones from his diet. (WHAT THE FUCK???). I'mma skip my responses to this "vet", but after teaching her the difference between raw/cooked bones, I left there and I did my own food diagnosis program for a couple of weeks, and came to my previously stated conclusion. I learned in that moment most of the vets in the area are so far into this category of "feed/train your dog this way or you're wrong", that I haven't searched for another yet. 13 months later with a very healthy dog, I'm just now starting my search for a more professional vet for any future issues.
Unfortunately right now, with COVID, you can’t even sit in the clinic in some places, so just keep an eye out and ask their opinion first and operate last.
@@jacobbaysinger28 I’m in school to be a vet nurse, and honestly, the diet and behaviour side is really lacking. Most just know what they came out of school with. My dog is suffering with a lot of allergies and reactions, and the last vet we saw had racked us up in thousands of dollars of treatments that did nothing. We have to see a new vet now and they were shocked at the treatment plans the other place had. I’m not a tech, surgeon or anything so I couldn’t assert what seemed off.
Some Veterinarians have become pure gold diggers. I took my chronically sick 14.5 year old NorwichTerrier to my vet to finally get him euthanized as it was overdue but it was hard to let go of him, and the lady there wanted to talk me into getting him a kidney transplant! I was like, “ What?! No! How does that make any sense?”
His kidneys hadn’t even been shown to be the problem but obviously old age was, so I guess we can assume the kidneys were not high functioning at that point. I was just trying to keep it together so I didn’t give her a piece of my mind at that time, but that was clearly an immoral and unethical thing to suggest to perform on such an old dog and a rather predatory Vet. Practice that I would certainly never go back to.
@@samcresp5440 Yeah, I understand and that's crazy. Very similar to my experience, except what this vet tried to tell me was so insane I caught it. Thankfully, because that bill was nearly 2k.
Thank you for your comments. I hadn't thought of the "vets can and do use aversive methods, but none of the rest of us can" angle, but it's true.
Something else that stands out to me and I’ve always noticed since I was little is that just because people work at a veterinary office whether they are reception, or all the way up to the veterinarian themselves, they don’t necessarily know or understand animal behavior as well as someone like Joel who has dedicated a significant portion of his life to it. To learning, observing, understanding and interpreting animal communication.
I always find it a bit offputting (I know they have good intentions) when you walk into the vet office and everyone starts talking to my dog in a high pitch baby voice and it just gets the dog worked up. Instead of just staying calm, maybe not engaging with the dog at all.
This is so true, I remember when I first got my dog I made the mistake of asking the vet for potty training advice and remember leaving feeling very oddly unsatisfied. You would think for someone who spends their lives around dogs that they would know the basics. I guess that's why you don't go to your family doctor and ask for psychological counseling.
@@mansondevil33 Precisely! You get it! That’s exactly what I’m talking about! LOL and we are supposed to trust them because they are “the experts”
@@littledogRonnie exactly! I thought about mentioning this to in my comment. This has definitely been my experience in the US. When doctors are in medical school they’re lucky if they get more than 1 hour MAYBE 2 of nutrition education/cleaning. There are other parallels as well but I chose not to mention them on this platform. LOL
'Doctors Only Spend One Hour Learning About Nutrition in Four Years of Medical School-It's Not Enough' "Food is medicine." It's a refrain you hear a lot-including from doctors. Which is why it's surprising news that MDs aren't taught exactly how food and wellness are connected in medical school.Oct 8, 2019
www.wellandgood.com › ...
Medical school doesn't teach nutrition-doctors think it should | Well+Good
@@KingsMom831 Experts on prescribing medications and giving shots, and even that's not always the case haha.
@@mansondevil33 right!
Without being able to correct a dog, we’ll see so many poor dogs end up in kill shelters.
My wife works at our local humane society and you would be surprised the amount of owners that turn "agressive" "dominance" (Internet search the word and please state your references. Please and thank you.) "My child is scared of it and won't feed it. " Said the man calling to see if we can go pick up the dog. Smh, that's why I'm fostering and educating the"stray" dog owners in my neighborhood. Outreaching and educating those that want to learn basics. I take a little bit of every dog trainer I follow and take what I feel in my heart to be right and giving them a second chance at changing the world for the better with patience and understanding. Most time the troubled youth just want to be heard.
I like the work he did with the pit bull and German shepherd. They weren't aggressive, but I think he did a good job. And I feel the same about the studies as Beckman.
I think that's actually part of the agenda. More control over the population. What are they going to do, arrest trainers like Beckman and say they're breaking the law now? These people spewing out these studies could care less about dogs. I think it would be great to see a few of them coming to Beckman's, and watching them get control of an aggressive dog. Let them demonstrate the hypocrisy they are preaching. Like he mentioned about the vets how they want to make the rules for everybody else, but it doesn't apply to them. Rules for thee but not for me. Where have we seen this before?
Zak George's methods work for puppies
Joel Beckman's methods work for dogs
Facts 💯
They still good trainers though
@@justincastillo5156 for puppies
YESSS EXACTLY
Joel’s method works for people too.
SO TRUE about SOME vet treatment with dogs and other animals!! The hypocrisy is rampant. In general, I believe in Zak's approach - kindness and a gentle hand is preferable to heavy handed correction through fear alone. However, given that most dogs are like 2 yr olds (mentally), swift corrective actions like a 'pop' on the collar, or grabbing the collar and getting the dog to walk as directed, and a loud "No! Stop!" or whatever... is often necessary. My dogs are working cattle dogs. They have their instincts to drive and herd. They also needed firm training to stop unwanted behaviours like play/mauling calves or ganging up on single livestock and harrassing them. No amount of 'positive reinforcement' could have produced the results needed. My dogs totally trust and respect my leadership - they've allowed me to stich their gashes and tend to their injuries without a muzzle, and at times without the benefit of local anesthetic. Thankfully, those occasions are rare, but they speak to the trust and the mutual bond between my dogs and myself. One size definitely does NOT fit all... in ANY World.
Thank you Joel. After your GOAT video, I actually looked up Zac George and watched a few videos, to get other points of view. I was shocked about his constant "positive reinforcement". I thought to myself that this will never work unless your dog is near perfect to start with. After 8 minutes or 20 minutes of whatever the video was on, I couldn't even take things away to use myself on my dog. I think I watched about 5 videos before I said enough is enough. Thank you again for your logical, informative, instructional videos that make sense and work. My dog is a 100 times better with loose leash walking. All the way from Perth, Western Australia
I agree with all that too.
From Melbourne, Australia.
I did the same thing and learned a bunch of stuff to teach our foster puppies. My hope is that it reduces the amount of returns. " The dog doesn't listen to me and runs through fences" I have to check my records but Hutch is a big baby that was just scared and needed to be reminded that humans are friends
@@DaveDEF82 mother dogs use “aversive” corrections on their puppies to decrease behaviors… all other arguments are invalid unless we want to start taking puppies away from their mothers at birth 😂
I’ve been using the “leash pop” correction method for about a month and my golden retriever is doing so well, I practice a lot in the backyard and then expect the same on a walk. I might start using a halter lead because she is reactive to other dogs and we’re still working on it.
I agree about Zak's videos when it comes to dominance and aggression. Trying to fix a dog that doesn't give a sh*t or won't listen to you by using positive methods it patently ridiculous. He had one where he was trying to teach a dog not to run out the door. It took way too much time opening the door a little more each time an treating at every step. And that would not have fixed running out of any other passage. Joel fixes the behavior in about 30 seconds with his method.
That said, Zak's methods are wonderful for shaping positive behaviors and I've learned a lot. He has a way of breaking down a goal behavior into tiny steps and treating at each point to reinforce. It is a different talent. Joel also does this with his "bed stay" training, but he specializes in tougher cases and is not afraid to work with dogs exhibiting negative behaviors.
as a teacher i have to say here: this attitude about learning though compassion and rewards only is the EXACT REASON children are running wild, attacking adults, macing teachers, and more. this hasn't worked for decades in schools. the reason i am so impressed by a trainer like dog daddy is that he is training these dogs the same way very small children need to be trained before age 6. because people refuse to do the hard work and unpleasant job of being a strict and loving adult to children, the youth do not trust or believe us when we try to teach or educate them.
ask any teacher about how this rewards stuff has been working in classrooms.
Nailed it!
I watched your video on leash training and after one session my extremely high energy highly distract-able dog was stopping when I stopped and looking to me for where we are going instead of trying to throw herself in every direction. She’s very anxious because she’s a little bullet who lives to sprint for hours but she responded amazing to the regular corrections with a regular collar and leash from pet smart. The only tool I needed was advice lmao
Been waiting to hear from you. Was thinking of what you might say while watching Zak’s video a few days ago. Respect Zak, but appreciate your videos so much. Love that you leave everything in, don’t do a min in the beginning one in the middle and one at the end. I was an editor for many years at national level, but appreciate when there are no edits in order to tell a story. You tell a story without cutting out the important bits.
I've watched several UA-cam dog training videos. I have a 7-10 month old dumped Doberman. Zak helped my dog, but your methods now have my dog off leash 90% of the time and few treats. Thank you for pointing out the politics behind this.
I was a vet tech for a number of years and all of the vets I worked for sedated animals that they thought might show any behaviors that the vet didn't like. This included any kind of growling or fear. All of them would direct pet owners to seek out dog trainers if a client asked questions about how to train their pet (unless it was how to potty train lol). And throughout history, the majority of so called "studies" were carried out to produce the scientists desired and opinionated results, not true results, and were not conducted using true scientific measures. This is not only true in the veterinary field but also in the human medical field. You have to take these studies with a grain of salt and do your own investigative work. Be proactive, ask why/how/where the studies came up with their info and conclusions, then make your own decision based on science and common sense, and what you feel comfortable with. Thank you for this video shedding light on a controversial topic.
From my limited experience, I’ve seen vets do things for what they believe is for their protection, without considering what is best for the animal. Probably an understatement. Medical care in general is just a business like any other business - profit driven.
I love two thing about you Joel and your channel! You stick to your guns since the day this channel is born and absolutely love how it exploded with subscribers! You might not be to GOAT yet, but you sure start pushing some guys out of the way! Thanks for everything you do for us dog lovers!
As a person who's thinking about becoming a trainer....I thank you for this video. I completely agree with everything you said. I've been watching and using your method on loose leash walking on my 6 year old mixed breed whos never been able to walk without pulling. Thanks to you, she can walk on a heel. Thanks!
thanks for your great reply. I love your work I think you do a great job with the dogs. I might be a little biased because I have a Doberman to and I think they’re amazing animals. But honestly, I think you do a great job and I’ve used your tricks at home and it has helped tremendously. Thanks again for all the great Internet free coaching you give.
Was curious to see if you would respond to his video I saw this morning :). Glad to hear your opinion on this.
I'm all for balanced training and try to use positive reinforcement as much as possible but recognize that there are times when "aversive" tools/methods are needed.
There is a big push in the veterinary industry for Fear Free training, which kind of aligns with this ASVAB statement, where they try to manage a pet's fear, anxiety and stress by using positive reinforcement, gentle control and gradient touch. Granted, it's not required for vets just like accreditation with AAHA isn't, but it is gaining much more traction. You mention in your video how vets drag pets to the back and have a bunch of people hold them down. In Fear Free certified practices this isn't the case. Most, if not all, treatment is done in the exam room. There is a lot of time and attention given to how the dog is responding to things, using positive reinforcement with treats or toys or attention to distract a dog a dog from the exam or vaccines that are being given. If a client is uncomfortable with being present for a blood draw or other treatment, they're asked to step out vs taking the pet to the back as the pet is already used to and comfortable in the room. Keeping the owner in the room at that point just increases the pet's stress level and so would making the pet change room. There's more to it, like if a pet is overly stressed they'll stop the appointment, reschedule it and either send the owner home with meds for light sedation for the next visit or even work with the pet and owner by having them bring the pet in when nothing will be done to them to build that trust and positive interaction at the vet. I work at the only Fear Free certified practice in Arizona and we've seen a lot of pets who've had greatly improved experiences at the vet by using these methods. We've also seen owners who used to avoid bringing their pets to the vet strictly because of the stress it would cause on both them and their pet now coming in annually and whenever their pet needs additional care because of how well their pet does with us now.
So again, while this isn't something that's mandatory at all vets, you can't say that they're telling dog trainers and owners to do things that vets aren't being asked to do when there are more than 16,000 certified vets, techs and other pet professionals who are Fear Free certified. Pet owners can find these professionals if they do a little research.
I have watched both videos and I’m so glad that you gave a response as well. While I love the idea of only positive, I think there is a place for ‘less positive’ reinforcement. Thank you for what you do and give to us.
I’m still waiting for Zak to train a truly aggressive dog🤔
me too, the series he did with the border collie puppy was cringe worthy. Took him months to make a super smart dog comply in basic stuff, lol. Also the first thing he does in his videos is badmouth other methods and peddle stuff. Lost respect for him a long time ago.
What about the reactive german shepherd?
Have you seen other trainers with 'truly aggressive, untrained' dogs? I ask for the second time.
@@solideomusical I have seen it from this guy and that canine academy dude
@@spectre244mc Which dogs? I want to see those videos
I want to thank you for sticking to your gut. You said it perfectly be patient.
Without a small amount of subversive training, my dogs were a f*ing nightmare. Just a little bit here and there completely turned them around. I have a dogzilla (130-140lb St. Bernard puppy) and a microdog (5lb Yorkie, 5 y/o). The Yorkie's been agressive since puppyhood, and the Saint is goofy and distracted. Just small actions like putting the dog into a 'sit' position when they don't listen to the command or moving the dog to where I said "come" from has drastically improved both dogs' behaviors.
Most training I tried before Beckmans' was positive training and the dogs basically didn't give a damn what I told them to do in the long run, where it was good in the short run.
Sounds like you went to crappy R+ trainers.
The whole "only positive reinforcements"thing really makes us powerless. Its so annoying. And then we realize that we must correct a behavior but now we dont know how. Its a downward spiral.
Also the whole dont act nervous thing! But the dog KNOWS your nervous.. so what now? xD
I'm starting to just be real with my dog. Because hes real too. Maybe thats the real lesson here.
I was waiting to hear your thoughts on this new mission statement. I also agree with your stance that there are a lot of missing pieces both to the studies and the double standard within the animal industry e.g. vet clinics, shelters, rescues.
Thank you so much for more tips ahead to all of us ..❤️🤩🌹👍
Thank you for touching on this subject! It's really great to see discussion in the dog training community about things like this. I'm your average dog owner, but I'm really invested in canine behaviour. I do agree that there's an issue with veterinarians being "exceptions to the rule". Tell the average veterinarian that you raw-feed your dog and you'll feel the self-important wrath immediately. 😛I hate it, and I don't want to be divided from my veterinarian or any other canine handler in that way. If all else fails, I don't want to put my dog on the equivalent of Prozac (as someone who is actually on Prozac...) and having a dog with a blank expression as acceptable... And what I especially don't want are the dogs not given a chance because everyone and everything has failed them, and having to be killed as a result of rulings like this. Imagine the damage someone can do because they don't use a tool properly, but they can't go to anyone for help when all else fails? Maybe they can't afford a behaviourist or a canine specialist? And does not being able to afford a specialist mean that you are undeserving of a canine companion? I feel like there are far too many pitfalls. Should positive reinforcement be used first? Yeah, probably! I don't think anyone denies that. Is it the be-all-end-all of everything? No, and I think that could be dangerous.
Great response - direct and to the point. Any one with experience with dogs knows you have to tell them to knock it off sometimes . On occasion when they are for example chewing on a cable or trying to eat a sock - failure to correct them would result in harm to the dog. Lunging at cars has to be fixed quickly. Positive reinforcement is great for teaching them to do something but not for training them to stop doing something they find rewarding and enjoyable.
Keep up the good work - your posts are appreciated and watched in the Highlands of Scotland.
Why is your dog put in a position to chew cables is my question. Freedom is earned.
Such a valid point about vet clinics! I didn't even think of that. Thank you for your thoughts! I've always struggled with the word "aversive" when talking about training. Physically restricting for any reason, even leash wearing, is by definition aversive. As always, follow the money.
Thank you so much for helping and clarifying. It was so confusing to me, and made me feel so lost.
I always go for the positive reinforcement first for puppies especially BUT I have always seen correction is the best way to fix a problem at the snap of a finger or a clap. This new ideology and so call “research” is gonna send a ton of dogs to shelters.
I loved that comparison about holding dogs down at the vet. 🙂
I've only been an amateur trainer trying to get the best out of my dog for a few weeks.
After watching many different UA-camrs, Joel has become my favorite. I appreciate his practical approach that doesn't rely on prong collars and e-collars. That being said, other trainers have dedramatized the use of these tools and I believe that if used properly they will be beneficial to certain dogs, just as the hyper positive treat based training will benefit other dogs. Personally, I quickly got sick of feeding my dog treats every two minutes and becoming an afterthought once I was left with nothing. I figured that there had to be a middle ground. Joel fits the bill.
I watched some of Zak's stuff. He's not my favorite but the truth is, is that just like my dog, I'm a sponge right now and I'm learning interesting things from everyone (Joel, Upstate Canine Academy, Will Atherton )
R+ is a lot harder to implement. I think the biggest issue is people not knowing how to make themselves the reward and not knowing how to fade treats. There is only ONE command I use where my dog gets treats everytime and that's because I need that command to work every time. Guess what it does.
I highly recommend Kikopup and Cog Dog Radio the podcast.
New subscriber here. Been binge watching your methods and getting it. Keep up the good work. Thanks for taking a stand. Positive always has a place. Just not exclusively.
Last August I rescued a 1.5 yr old border collie mix who had severe leash reactivity & aggression. After 10 months of trial-and-error with different positive reinforcement methods we had made very little progress, which was quite discouraging at times. The turning point was when I started implementing leash corrections, using a hybrid of techniques from Beckman and Cesar. We were able to start passing other dogs on walks and even have brief positive meetings on leash. Today, she walks brilliantly and is happy (but not overly excited) to see other dogs outside. She also runs freely at the dog park, which is so awesome to watch. There is no chance we would have reached this point with purely positive training. Thanks for your videos!
I did train my dogs before the Interwebs have become a thing and it was always clear to me, that a dog does what I want it do do, because the dog loves and respects me and that I treat my dog with love and respect. Adverse training never ever came to my mind. I still can see no reason to treat my dogs with anything but love and respect. Positive training is harder, you have to pick the proper situation, manage disturbances and in general pay much, much more attention to your dog. But your dog is your partner and your partner deserves it. And training is as much as learning about yourself as it is about learning about your partner.
Kay. Having had my arm Shredded by a pitbull because the owner would never tell it no was great. I ended up adopting that pitbull and training her myself. She doesn't attack other dogs anymore which is how she bit me when I I got in between her and my friends puppy she was trying to attack. Hilariously enough it was actually my dog that was most effective because she would go at him and that happened twice and then never again. You think my dog was using positive training methods? No he kicked her ass out of my house and wouldn't let her back in until her psychotic ass back in until she calmed down. She has one dot on her nose where he grabbed her muzzle and she drastically changed from that moment. But yeah he was using positive reinforcement...
Happy to have you speaking up for the people who end up having dogs with behavioural issues that can't be fixed with food or toys or whatever it might be. Teaching the meaning of "no" and consequenses give problematic dogs a chance to have a normal life. Thanks for speaking your mind without going after others, we just need the truth, not bashing others. Keep it up
This was very illuminating and helpful. It effectively clarified Zak's video and I appreciate it. Thank you.
Love your point about vet clinics... I used SR+ to have my dog let me cut his nails, then they did it at the vet (wouldn’t let me in bc of covid) and they turned it into a totally aversive experience for him... had to desensitize him all over again...I just want to quickly address the Petsmart trainers, not all of them are all positive, (I’ve had good and bad experiences there, Ive done the puppy class for socialization several times) my current Petsmart trainer is awesome and balanced, 50+ years specializing in Akitas... I wasn’t going to go to Petsmart but she came to say hi to my dog and we got talking... and she definitely does corrections
All pet owners need to pay attention and think for themselves!!!
Big box stores have bought up many Vet practices in my area and are trying to take control.
The price of Vet care has skyrocketed... and care has diminished. Thankfully, my Vet recently left his practice and reopened independently.
Thanks Joel for your balanced approach!
They are also the ones who sell cheap shotty prongs and ecollars
I look forward to the science deep dive! This isn’t my field but I am a researcher and my guess this is going to be a wild (bad) ride!
@@DaveDEF82 Trolling?
@@DaveDEF82 There are a lot of leaps you are making, especially since the deep dive ("At least say something about the design of it") is exactly what he says will be discussed in a follow-up video. So you don't really have a basis to disagree with his assessment yet. What I find most entertaining about your strong reaction is how you criticize his "scientific dialogue" when this video very closely resembles a scientific abstract: we hear get some relevant background information, we know what methods/studies he is going to discuss in his next video, and we learn what conclusions he draws and will defend. That's pretty perfectly an abstract! And abstracts are placed at the top of scientific articles so the release of this video before the next one fits perfectly to the order scientific articles are written. Of course that's probably a coincidence I just got a good kick out of your reaction.
@@SarahRaeH I tried to get into the studies but was blocked by the paywalls. If they arent' willing to put the study out there there really isn't much to do. That said, one study had 17 dogs. Totally insufficient to "prove any thing. The abstract was insufficient on methodology and design altogether. If you can get the real stuff with data and details please post it. There are no copyright issues in a fair use and critique forum.
I'll say this.
I had a moderate pulling issue with my dog. She wore a harness for the longest because that's what I saw Zak George do (nothing but love for him though). My dog didn't really like the harness, but she came around after I made it clear that her harness = leash = outside/walk. However, she pulls a lot more on a harness and it was _really_ difficult to communicate with her at times that the pulling is *not* the desired behavior and by walking loosely on a leash, good things happen! I didn't really know what to do for a while until I came across Joel's videos here on the channel + another video I watched about using a harness (I'll cite it below).
What I learned is that using a harness to try and communicate unwanted leash behavior with your dog can be ineffective. Even the no-pull harness I had wasn't always doing that. So I simply took the harness out of the equation and used her (flat) collar instead. I took her out for a walk the next morning and it's like I was walking a completely different dog. I gave a couple leash pops and worked on redirecting her back to me by stopping and walking in the other direction. She understood pretty quickly what I expected from her.
A couple days later, I ordered a gentle leader and started further reinforcing the leash walking behavior I wanted. We're still working on issues such as reactivity to other dogs on walks (she flails around with the gentle leader on). But so far I'm really proud of her and I'm excited for what the future holds!
Video about using harnesses: ua-cam.com/video/S7TCIerAx7s/v-deo.html
I really like your unbiased response. Also, I'm a big fan of your training methods!
Thank you
In my experience over a lifetime, I raise my dogs like children. Start from the very beginning establishing "rules" & routine. If my new puppy goes to whiz on the carpet he gets a "Ah, Ah, Ah" scooped up & immediately taken out, once he goes he gets a treat & what a good boy! That balance of correction, redirection, and praise when he does what I want where I want it works amazingly well. (I house train in a matter of like 3 days other than the rare accident cuz they're still babies, those accidents are My fault) While I lean heavily on positive reinforcement, I do use correction when necessary........usually the latter isn't very often & because I've established a good relationship with the dog it typically only takes once unless dealing with a stubborn personality. My great pyr puppy got tall enough to counter serf, and he did it with gusto whether there was anything on a table or counter or not. (curious) He got voice corrected. If he returned to the behavior he'd get a hand clap & voice corrected. Since he's super smart & quite an independent thinker, it took the body block added in to get the idea he's not allowed to counter serf even if it's a tasty steak sitting on the table within his reach. No raised voice, I didn't even physically touch him. Just firm.......I am the parent, you are the child sort of attitude from me. I'm all for setting a dog up for success, but if a dog is so set up for success he never encounters real life situations......such as open garbage cans, food on tables.......and so on, how is he going to learn to leave them alone? Most of the time redirection works fine. With an independent thinker, success is quite limited & I've found correction is required. Now I've had a 100 lb aggressive dog prior to my pyr. He came to me that way as a very young pup. Positive reinforcement didn't work well with his aggression, he paid no attention to it at all. Correction (as I mentioned prior) & patient stubbornness on my part, worked. I used positive reinforcement as much as possible but when he displayed any hint of aggression I immediately corrected.....every. single. time. It worked so well that as a grown dog I could literally stop him dead in his tracks with a simple finger snap, then he'd turn & look at me waiting for whatever the next command would be. BALANCE is key & knowing when a correction (and how to correct properly per situation) is needed.
Positive reinforcement doesn't mean being a push over. As someone who grew up heavily trained in how to be aversive I won't do it again. I also won't have a rescue again for a very long time when I'm through my current lot so lot better chance of not having a behavioral nightmare.
i work at an ONLY positive reinforcement dog daycare and it kills me to not re-direct or correct bad behaviour. my dogs are absolute angels in comparison to what i deal with at work; my boss and coworkers' opinion is that there is no such thing as a stubborn dog - "they aren't stubborn, just not motivated".... i, a husky and malamute owner, had no idea what to say to that. only 2 of my coworkers have their own dogs and surprise surprise - their dogs have no manners whatsoever, pull on leash, jump and punch their noses into peoples face, take things like towels or anything they can reach.... i'm the only one who works there that uses corrections on my own dogs and they make me feel like i'm abusive for it. yet all 3 of my dogs are a hell of a lot more balanced than any of theirs.... it's a bit insane what some people will put up with
Another thing that people are forgetting is that it is not always a puppy you have to train, sometimes it is a huge aggressive confused dog. That is where people with the positive reinforcement are missing the point.
I’m just a regular dog owner. I watched Zak’s video on this topic, he did do it well, and thought then, “ uuuumm, and how is this going to work ? “
The concept goes against nature, so dogs are pack animals, if one does something wrong, it gets told off by another, the dog thats getting po doesn’t run to get a stashed bone, and bring that to the annoying dog to make it stop annoying. No, it’ll do a quick snap, growl, whatever to put the dog in it’s place.
That doesn’t bring into the equation “Humans” and the problems we cause for our dogs, which is way more usually than any dog could do to another dog.
I’m not for prong collars or e-collars, just because there is so much room for error. No need for cruelty in any form. But there must be a consequence to a dogs unexceptable behaviour, and a treat is not going to do it as it’s lungeing and trying to attack every dog or child it see’s.
Ugh, it’s so not going to work.
@@DaveDEF82 Professional dog trainers aren’t the majority of dog owners. There is a place for positive reinforcements with treats, no arguments there, but there has got to be a consequence to unexceptable behaviours, as we’ve seen Joel’s “Pop method” on a normal collar works very well, it’s not a harsh method, and he uses treats in cases also, depending on the situation. Humans may have domesticated dogs, geez half the breeds nowadays wouldn’t survive in nature anymore, they are human made, not nature made, but they still have natural instincts from 100’s of years on this earth. Personalities all different, treats will work great for some, but not all, depending on circumstance. My dog GSD, couldn’t care less about treats, toys, but loves to know she’s done well with praise and a head scratch, but falls apart with “ Pop method”, doesn’t work for her.
I can’t recall saying anything about domesticating wild animals. I have 2 parrots that i’ve trained with positive reinforcements only, as you cannot discipline a bird, gets you no where. These birds will never be domesticated, they have a flock mentality, parrots are only 1-2 generations away from their wild ancestors, so they are not domesticated and not treated as such. But, they are not an animal that would ever understand discipline, but they do understand positive reinforcement. Dogs are completely different with their thought process.
prong collars and e-collars have their place - in the hands of someone experienced enough and intelligent enough to use them correctly and not harm the dog in any way. a prong collar should never HURT the dog; it should just put ENOUGH pressure in a QUICK movement to pretty much say "hey! wrong way!"(if your dog is trying to run into the road for instance) but i agree there is far too much room for error and they really shouldn't be available for just ANYONE to buy as they can certainly cause issues if misused. i've seen people being dragged by their dog wearing a prong collar - THAT will cause damage and should not be used by that person.
Completely Unrelated to this but I’ve been using your recent Dutch Sheppard training session as guidance for my own dog, I wanted to show my boyfriend the second half because you made really good points when speaking to the couple (owners) about the behavior but the video is gone :/ will it be reposted?
I really like how you both discuss, like grown up people 👍🏼
With my little dog, who is not a problem in any way, it’s great to use positive reinforcement and she learns quickly and great with it.
But my GSD-mix boy is no joke, with former owners he already bit people. He does definitely need a stronger guide line and reaction to bad behavior. I learn a lot from your videos and I adopted the „no nonsense attitude“. We go to an experienced trainer every week and it’s absolutely great, how this dog developed until today. He‘s calmer, ignores cyclists and joggers, he meets other dogs and likes it and I can take him everywhere without any fuss.
For teaching him new fun stuff, I go with the positive reinforcement and it’s very good, too. But in critical situations, I have to be very firm and sometimes the correction looks harsh, but I don’t want him to bite again and go crazy for absolutely no reason.
I‘ve got dogs since 20 years and my first dog was a Rottweiler, I adopted him as an adult. He was fear based reactive and very able to jump and nip people, he didn’t like.
My second dog was a small Spanish dog… she was fierce and very independent. Survived 6 years on the streets. She always made clear, she‘s no joke.
With both dogs I worked with a mixture of different „methods“ and this worked best for us.
But of course some people criticized me very hard, because I was „too rough“ in their eyes. My question always was: „Do you rather have that dog bite people? Please take him/her, it’s free, a gift. But please don’t bring it back if it bites people!“
Balance training works for dogs of all size.
I think there are a lot of good methods for dog training, the bigger problem is the owner’s unconsistency about their strategy. I also think, that the best is that you choose your training strategy based on your individual dog.
For example: I trained my first dog sit, stay, basic comands and tricks with positive reinforcemant, and he’s pretty reliable on them, but i couldn’t teach him leash walking with it, because after months of trainings he only did it well for food. I changed the way of training, and with corrections and redirections he learned it in 2-3 weeks acceptable.
My other dog learns leash walking now, I use positive reinforcemant (she’s a puppy), and she picks it up pretty fast, even without treats, i only praise her when she’s doing well, and she really wants to make me happy. After days, she walks pretty nice next to me on loose leash. In my opinion you have to be open minded for different training methods, and look for what your dog picks up fast. (I’m not a drog trainer, but thats my experience). I’m really interest in what you think about my opinion.
Sorry for my english, its not my main language.
People who say balanced training is cruel need to watch some videos of dogs mauling and killing other animals. Sure, we love our dogs but at the end of the day they are animals and certain dogs can be dangerous in the wrong hands. I used to be positive only until I got a dog that I raised to be reactive then totally changed my outlook. Loving your dog means setting boundaries/rules and not letting them do whatever they want.
New sub here ! I love that response, I use common sense in dog training. I will reward what I want to see and discourage what I don’t want to see. I’m trying to be as fair to the dog as possible. I recently start ecollar training so my hunting dog with huge prey drive can spend time leash free and safe
Wow. Good for you for standing up. I'm not a dog trainer, just a dog owner, but I use a combination in working with my dogs. It's becoming more and more clear that "they" just want a one-size-fits-all, cookie-cutter society. Soon, we'll be issued our adult onesies. I just subscribed to your channel based on this video. Thank you.
My philosophy of dog training (and I'm not a professional, just an owner) is to use the least aversive methods possible. That said, I'm open to the idea that, especially for discouraging behaviors, mildly aversive approaches may be the most effective and humane in the long run. I'm a big fan of Zak George but I don't think that he's the last word or anything like that. So I found his video on this topic to be very interesting, but I retain a little skepticism about the extremism of the statement.
At the end of the day, I'll be very interested to hear what you have to say about the studies that went into this position. That's what it comes down to for me. I've seen enough trainers to know that they are almost all biased, one way or another. I think a lot of approaches can work, but that doesn't mean they are the best, so I don't take anyone's word as gospel. Sound scientific studies are the most convincing thing to me. So I'm very interested in hearing more about the quality of the data behind these conclusions.
If you have the patience to read the literature, Patricia McConnell is a good place to start. If you want a shortcut, many of the modern methods of dog training had their start with Dr. Ian Dunbar [Obviously he didn't invent training - I think hunters and herders did that ;-) but he did many of the studies and practical applications, before ethology within zoology was applied to dog training ]. Dunbar described many of the current methods for training, 30 - 40 years ago. Current trainers read his books or authors who read his books ... or reinvented some of the methods. ;-)
There are two issues - Training behaviors, Or managing behaviors in emergency situations before the training is complete. What we do when a puppy runs out the front door, can be very different than how we train the puppy to sit at all entryways...
@@hanksimon5433 Thank you for the primer. I'm still very interested in a survey of these recent studies, but it really helps to have a background to even understand them. I'll check these out (probably starting with the shortcuts😉)
As a vet I resent your assertion that 'vets use aversive techniques behind closed doors' I only work with horses now but worked in mixed practice for 12 many dogs of all kinds and never did or saw this.
12years with many dogs sorry!
thank you soooooo much for bringing up realistic expectations. There are a million videos saying I shouldn't crate my puppy for 2 hours before she's ready... but I got shit to do! I gotta go to work! I need to go grocery shopping. What else can I do?
I stumbled on your videos thanks to the algorithm, just watched your GOAT list. When I saw how much of your method has to do with Prince as your partner I thought, " Just like Ceasar!". I have a lot of respect for him and you after watching a lot of your content. Thanks for your work!!!!
I've been training dogs for 40 years since the time when the only methods we were taught to train with were pressure based but in the last 10 years ever since this positive only movement has taken hold more dogs have showed up on my doorstep in a back harness tugging their owners up the driveway with a plethora of behavioral issues then I can count. When Zac reported on this my vet tech daughter made the same comment vets and technicians handle dog with force all the time, they don't have the time to treat a dog into submission
That is treatment not training. Training needs to be effective. Say what you want research shows Aversive training does work in the short term and does the opposite in the long term.
Suzanne you would have to define aversive training. I pretty much only teach my dogs what they cannot do - and I have two dogs (9 years and 14 years) that I will emphasize are fully spirited, but will not leave my property - and I live on a busy street. They learned this in their first year. I have had 4 off leash dogs like this . . . I teach them the rules and they can do whatever they want within those rules. They choose to not break harmony with the pack - and they have never been told to stay on the property or given praise or treats for doing so. I do compliment them for being well behaved overall. My experience says aversive works in the long term.
@@JenniferBealeunleashpr my mom seems to not understand that punishment =/= aversive. Basically, I've trained myself to spot what my dog is about to do, and if I know they're about to do something I don't like, I get their attention and put them in a position that I want them to be in. Mostly 'sit' or 'down' if they're being too much.
@@JenniferBealeunleashpr Aversive training in this case is something negative that you do to discourage unwanted behavior. Choke chains, shock collars, physical punishment, etc. I have noticed that shock collar users never seem to be done with the shock collar. It is more like putting a fence up. If you have a fence it works while it's there. if you take a fence down, dogs will leave the area.
@@suzanned5859 And what do you mean by physical punishment?
Joel, mate..., thank you for having the balls.
I agree. A mix of corrections and positive reinforcement is the only way to get results.
Joel is the only one I trust, can’t get enough of your videos.. Your overall logic, and especially the gentle leader is a game changer.. Once I watched hours of your videos, I finally got a 70lb Pitbull-Boxer to get in line. All day long bro, all day long! You rock Joel.
I think people forget that purely positive trainers don't exist. They still "punish" by withholding (whether it be food, attention, etc.), and saying "no" in a calm voice to teach the dog what they want instead. What they are actually against is using aversive punishment (moments of physical discomfort and or pain, sounds loud enough to snap dogs out of fixation, etc). balanced trainers do not just punish dogs over and over, they are BALANCED. they use positive reinforcement all the time with food, praise, and toys but understand this is only PART of the picture.
Most people do not have the time devoted to only positively reinforce their dogs without any substantial correction. It's just not realistic. Maybe it can work for people with huge fields, staying home all the time, etc.
I love Zak George but I learned I could not solely use his methods. Worked well for some things but definitely not behavioral issues and I did not want my dog to continue practicing poor behaviors. I also didnt have the luxury to create tons of distance if my dog was too reactive and wasn't redirecting their attention to me.
What sold me was seeing the dogs of balanced trainers. Proof is in the owner's dogs. Dogs of balanced trainers are undeniably so amazing, full of love for their owners, and insanely obedient. I like to look at results and the results of balanced training (done correctly) exceeds positive reinforcement only training.
I have worked tirelessly with my 2 yr old Bordoodle using mostly positive methods his whole life. Then I used a prong collar, due to him not getting better with reactivity. This made his reactivity worse. I then found Joel's methods. Joel's methods have done the most for me so far. I love Zak and have followed him for years. However Joel's recent post with the dog who "needed" a gentle leader was just what I needed. I have purchased the gentle leader and have used it a few times. My dog has been heeling better and reacting less. At first I felt guilty, like I wasn't doing "it" right. But after hearing Joel say, some dogs just need it, I feel so much better going with my gut and doing my best to read my dog and what he needs. I not sure why I needed to hear it, but THANKS JOEL! Thanks for the discussion.
I know as a parent I use the 10:1 method. For every negative interaction they're should be 10 positive ones. Works for dogs as well.
Imagine a world where adults all behaved like adults. 🤯 That’s what I love about Beckman. He treats his viewers and peers as adults and respects the opinions of those he may disagree with and encourages us all to look at those other viewpoints and make our own decisions. It’s what keeps us coming back and looking forward to everything he puts out. After owning dogs throughout a lifetime of 50 plus years, I have never been more informed and confident about what I am doing to train my puppy as I am now. The proof is that he is also now a very informed and confident dog. We have much gratitude for you Beckman!
Or as Beckman says: The proof is in the pudding! ;)
Not sure if you'll notice this comment but I was wondering if you could do a video with reactivity inside of the car while driving? My dog consistently tries to come upfront, he will choke himself to do so since he is buckled in with his harness or if we have something locking it - he goes completely berserk and has a major panic attack because he can't get up front.
He also barks at other dogs he sees out the window. We have tried nearly everything in our current power and it's just not getting better.
YES, PLEASE! “A-How-To” video on reactivity in the car!
First off: THANK YOU JOEL, for all of your dog training videos, your methods are transformative!!
Since successfully using your loose leash walking method on my sweet 6 year old female Doberman, adopted a year ago, I’ve also seen behavior improvement inside the car, using a version what you showed in your video for reactivity inside the house
But need more help!
She has mild anxiety while we are driving and does loud barking at random pedestrians & drivers, she goes especially bonkers at motorcycles, bicycles & skateboarders
PLEASE DO A VIDEO ON INSIDE CAR REACTIVITY, JOEL!
I used to do dog training at a local PetSmart and let me just say, it was a nightmare at times! I often found myself in contention with management because they just could not see that the “PetSmart way” was NOT the way dog training should be done. I tried very hard to reason with them, but to no avail.
I’d say I’m more of what one might call, a balanced trainer and prefer to have many tools in the toolbox, just like any good mechanic would. If someone expect late to fix a dog with just a “screwdriver” they’re going to run into problems and most likely fail that dog and it’s owners!
Thanks Joel for the video and I’ll be sure to locate the other video you mentioned concerning these issues.
I know someone also who also used to train dogs there. That person told me that they don't sell Ecollars because that helps them sell more lesson packages.
@@solideomusical I have a friend who is a certified dog trainer. And they mainly use e-collars. She specializes in training more difficult dogs. People leave them with her for 2 weeks, she has her own pack as well.
I'm new to this positive/aversive discussion. I appreciate the Zac/Joel perspectives. My first two dogs were older when they came to me and didn't need a lot of training. For the little training they needed it was suggested I use a choke collar (the kind with prongs). I struggled with that as it seemed too aggressive for the training I felt they needed. Redirection seemed to work just as well. My new dog is also a shelter dog and only 3 yrs old. He's a 'runner' and needs a lot of training. Redirection wasn't enough but I didn't want to be cruel either. I'm trying positive reinforcement as much as possible but now feel more confident using aversive as well.
Joel, keep speaking truth to power!
These methods you are talking about...I have seen children with parents who used the same methods on them and their kids were brats! It does not work on kids or dogs. To me, it's a form of manipulation with no good results. My pittie knows without a doubt that I adore him, but he knows I am in charge. I am not abusive, but I do stand my ground with him. Years ago I had a trainer that got abusive towards me when I
told him that I didn't agree with his reward method for training. He used fowl language in a public setting to
tell me what he thought of me! I'm with you Beckman! I appreciate so much your approach.
It's so ironic how the people promoting "purely positive" are the most VERBALLY ABUSIVE people out there. (same with vegans and extreme-left people)
Like, seriously? Are you really trying to convince me to be "purely positive" when you are the exact opposite of that term? Sheesh.
I will firstly admit I am biased. But I have to say, the idea of not saying "no" in child raising DOESN'T mean you always say yes no matter what. I was raised with this principle by parents who had child psychology studies 20+ years back and I later went on to study a module of child psychology in university. What I noticed when comparing parents today (not all but many) to what I was raised like, they tend to extrapolate "don't say no" to no discipline.
I was raised with rules. It wasn't "don't touch that" it was "please leave that alone." It wasn't "don't get close to the dog" it was "the dog doesn't know you well and it is uncomfortable, please keep your distance until it gets to know you better." What I see many parents do now is see their kid do something bad but go "we don't believe in saying no to our child" and don't do anything about it. I've seen redirection and reinforcement of expected behaviour both work very well with children, but what I also see is many people THINK that's what they do when instead they simply do nothing.
I will not address dog behaviour because I have no experience there. I expect some commonalities, especially in the sense that most positively trained dogs who are severely misbehaved are probably, in fact, untrained dogs of owners who THINK they trained them positively.
@@minano-nim6795 The reason why that method works for human children is because human children can understand what you're saying to them. Whereas a dog doesn't understand human language nor human behaviour, therefore it simply cannot be applied to them.
Animals are simple - they think in black and white, yes and no.
The problem with purely positive is that it is a form of dog training where you guide your dog to do things you want it to do. But what if the dog decides that it won't do what you want it to do no matter what? What if it decides to maul a baby?
Besides, just look at how dogs teach other things, and there is your answer. Dogs give corrections to each other all the time. ESPECIALLY mother dogs who are taking care of her puppies. She will growl and nip and pin down puppies when they misbehave. She is saying "No". If dogs can say no to each other, why can't we?
@@minano-nim6795 exactly. It's not just "no". It's more like "don't do that and here's why" and also showing/teaching them what you DO want them to do
So much respect for your work! Just got off the phone with a positive reinforcement trainer and hard pass! We tried every trick under the sun to get our dog to stop barking, a punishment (ie shaking a can with nails in it, an idea I adapted from your video of slamming the door) is the only think that’s worked and it worked almost immediately!
Thanks Joel! I thought there had to be an agenda. The statement just left too many questions in real life with our dogs.--
I dead agree to what u said I think around 4.25- 4.30/33 regarding correction . I follow your videos and use your methods and they work very very well . I even tried the one u said “I got it “ it does work .
Dogs use physical corrections on each other, so......I totally agree with you. I have a dog with aggression issues. How the hell do treats fix a dog wanting to rip your face off????
You have a dog with aggression issues and have presumably been using aversive methods to attempt to fix it. How's it going?
Just keep on doing what you're doing.
When I was 7 years old in 1982, my father got me a Pit Bull for my birthday. No one had ever heard of Pit Bulls at that time (was a nice few years before they were all over the news). We trained him, and the other two Pits we we got immediately after, following a Barbara Woodhouse book we got from the library and her TV show on PBS. We got them all choke chains and used them, per her instructions, to correct them. It worked. I was a 7 year old girl walking, by myself, a mile to the "stores" on a sketchy back road, with 3 Pit Bulls. Never pulling, all slack leads. But now, Barbara Woodhouse's training is seen as abuse. A quick snap of the chain stopped any behaviour. One of my dogs was aggressive towards unknown dogs. She was gamey as hell in a way that any animal that doesn't live with us must die (we later found out that the breeder fought her mother to a week before she gave birth), but a snap of the chain, and she would look at you with that big Pitty smile and wag her tail.
Government needs to stay the heck out of our and our dogs' lives. Vote to mean it!