Despite all my critical comments im loving this convo. I saved it for today in particular for many reasons- the day of Jewish mourning for all of our suffering - especially the destruction of bith temples and the sin of the spies. Today we are not allowed to learn any Torah except Lamentations, the destruction prophecies, and the book of Job.... It was a gift, thank you
32:30 exactly Jess. It's the truth of the subjective experience spoken honestly, which is the reason given for why we don't put these under Prophecy but under Writings (still divinely guided/inspired but they are "truth that rises from the ground" emergent, and not revelation from a transcendent view)
This was a great listen. I've been "in it" lately and I'm struggling with the reflex to think that once I "crack the code" and figure out the lesson God wants me to learn it'll be over. I know that's not how it works, but it's much easier than trusting God's timing and being patient with suffering.
1:17:40 re: your story of the older, single gentleman from your church, Jess. "I appreciated that he was telling me the truth: 'I come (to church) out of fear of being judged.'" It's very difficult to speak the truth, even about ourselves.
Jess & Ted should read Salvifici Doloris (salvific suffering) by John Paul II and discuss it for a video. JPII, explains the Roman Catholic teaching on how humans can share in Christ’s suffering and how the Cross gives meaning to suffering. Not a RC but it makes sense and JPII was an exceptional Pope. The Book of Job is discussed in this “Apostolic Letter”.
1:12:23 key point. (Of many) Job “knew” propositionally at the beginning that God is good and can make good out of evil (naked I came from the womb and naked shall I return, blessed be the name of the Lord) BUT he still had to go through the suffering to know, fully, to know, as he is known.
Also, Ted at 1:13:21 "God forbid you avoid it." I would say that, ultimately, I don't think you can. It's not what you are. Unless a human being is capable of willing their own unbeing. And I don't believe the human will can do that.
It seems like he is having some kind of vision at this point. He sees the Redeemer standing on earth at the end, at the setting of the sun in the west. It's sort of apocalyptic. Similar to Daniel 7:13 maybe - "I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man"
8:28- curious that Christians put Job as the beginning of the wisdom books. We don't have an order of Wisdom Books - Job is in the Order of Writings (and not Prophets interestingly) Either way the first things book sra ethe same BUT the order is reversed, for us it's Psalms then Proverbs and only then Job.
Yeah, I don't make too much of this. It's one of those points that you could see significance in either way. Either opening up one to the wisdom books, or once learning wisdom, then shown the inherent limitations compared to the wisdom of God.
Are ‘perfect’ and ‘without sin’ the same thing? Can one not transgress the boundary, and yet still fall short of maximal quality? Perhaps another way of asking this is, is Job changed to a higher degree of ‘quality’ Job as a result of his experience? Or is Job unchanged by the ordeal because he’s already blameless?
This is the way I like to think about it. You could have a "perfect" 10-year-old kid. They are just the most ideal 10-year-old ever. But if in 10 years they still acted like a 10-year-old, that would be a problem. They should transform from a child to an adult at some point and not remain a child forever. Another example: The perfect apple. Perfect in size and shape and ripeness. But apples are meant to either be eaten or to fall to the ground and the seeds are planted in the ground. There is a time and a season for everything. So I see Job transformed from one state to another more glorious one.
Right. They didn't seek God's face like Job did, because they were afraid. The sacrifice and mediation is a mercy to them, but they still don't see God like they should because of it.
37:12 hmmm i mean there is no word for indict in biblical Hebrew, this is being read in by your translation.i can only find two places English translations user it. It seems to be an exegetical addition that had no corresponding Hebrew in ch 13 and in 31 its being used to translate תוי which is just an X shaped mark (much like in the prophecy where those being judged are marked with an X)
@@WhiteStoneName Sci-Fi novel about a monk 600 years after some sort of apocalypse, and then another 600 years or so pass and then another each time following a different person, and then all of it comes to some interesting conclusion in the last chapter.
Hmm i dont have the same vision of a fixes/static eschatology i guess. This comes back with my perennial comment to Sam on final telos- does higher and deeper ever end? Unless we just become one with God and desolve into infinitude im not sure
If the question is whether we can judge because the story is over or we cant and therefore still need to follow the wisdom of the Law sounds precisly like the ongoing debate between Christianity and Judaism (just like why our bible is not U shaped and yours is....)
I have ideas about this, not necessarily about Judaism and Christianity, but about the flat story as opposed to the u-shaped story. Kurt Vonnegut talks about the flat story as "the honest truth" and uses Hamlet as an example.
@@yosefrazin6455 I think he talks about it as flat because of the way that something good can also turn out to be bad and something bad turns out to be good, like the Chinese Farmer parable.
1:27:40 "God's not just snapping his fingers making robots. This isn't happening as a simulation or a trick. If God wants to have REAL sons and daughters, this is how it's done." ❤🔥 There is no magic switch. To become like Christ, Christ in me, I have to suffer. I have to mediate. I have to forgive, like I've been forgiven. There are huge ramifications for eschatology here, too. And sanctification. We must ACTUALLY embody Christ in our own bodies. We can't just wait for God (whatever THAT means) to come and fix it all for us, apart from us doing it.
@@WhiteStoneName this is from Christ’s perspective, his choice. But his acceptance denotes a world in which there is no alternative. I also think the cup imagery in the prayer of Gethsemane also points to acceptance. But I will have to think about it more.
Regarding knowing and "you can't know'. One can though, via faith. We can't know objectively because that's always been the illusion of Divided Man. Kant was right. The agnostics are right. We CANNOT know *that way*. It's antibeing. It's not who a person is to know that way. I'm not even sure that God knows that way. This is maybe what Peter Rollins is getting at by saying that Unknowing is ontic, going all the way down to Being itself. It's not just about epistemology.
Job falls apart to the kernel that doesn’t fall apart.
Yes! That's right.
Despite all my critical comments im loving this convo. I saved it for today in particular for many reasons- the day of Jewish mourning for all of our suffering - especially the destruction of bith temples and the sin of the spies. Today we are not allowed to learn any Torah except Lamentations, the destruction prophecies, and the book of Job.... It was a gift, thank you
Thank you, Yosef. 🙏 I appreciate all the comments.
32:30 exactly Jess. It's the truth of the subjective experience spoken honestly, which is the reason given for why we don't put these under Prophecy but under Writings (still divinely guided/inspired but they are "truth that rises from the ground" emergent, and not revelation from a transcendent view)
This is helpful, Yosef.
This was a great listen. I've been "in it" lately and I'm struggling with the reflex to think that once I "crack the code" and figure out the lesson God wants me to learn it'll be over. I know that's not how it works, but it's much easier than trusting God's timing and being patient with suffering.
It's difficult. Sometimes, there is no code to crack. Sometimes you just have to "go through it." God bless you and keep you.
1:07:05 “would you stand in judgment of terrible goodness” ❤️🔥👏🏼
Also, I want to say how lovely it is to actually be in person talking. Hard to overestimate the difference
1:09:30 you can’t know (objectively, without faith) and you can’t control what’s beyond the door.
👏🏼👏🏼💯
Love the chemistry between you two guys… divine sparks of illumination were let flying as iron sharpened iron
Please do more!
1:09:14 it’s like the line at the end of the movie The Unforgiven “deserves got nothing to do with it”
56:58 CS Lewis in the Screwtape letters “The best thing for a man who thinks he’s been treated unfairly is a good dose of pain.”
“He’ll make it. I just know he will.” What a beautiful statement!
9:37 makes me think of mother Theresa and her struggles
1:26:25 "You don't have to pretend anything." ❤🔥
1:17:40 re: your story of the older, single gentleman from your church, Jess.
"I appreciated that he was telling me the truth: 'I come (to church) out of fear of being judged.'"
It's very difficult to speak the truth, even about ourselves.
Beautiful story of your journey with your daughter. 🙏
Beautiful and true story about your daughter, Ted.
This needs 10 million views this is my third run
Interestingly the algo led me here just in the last few days
32:23 “…and not try and lie for God”
One of the most succinct & amazing things I’ve ever heard of a truth that I love.
😘
Fantastic! So good to see you together in conversation.
59:15 Beautifully said Jess! Bullseye. Love it.
Jess & Ted should read Salvifici Doloris (salvific suffering) by John Paul II and discuss it for a video. JPII, explains the Roman Catholic teaching on how humans can share in Christ’s suffering and how the Cross gives meaning to suffering. Not a RC but it makes sense and JPII was an exceptional Pope. The Book of Job is discussed in this “Apostolic Letter”.
@@michaelmartin3122 sounds like an Excellent Adventure! 😉
I love how you edited the phone call
Thank you. 😊
Same.
Very cool to see, and in person.
1:05:00 reintegrate the wicked via the mediator (he who has learned/become by suffering).
1:12:23 key point. (Of many)
Job “knew” propositionally at the beginning that God is good and can make good out of evil (naked I came from the womb and naked shall I return, blessed be the name of the Lord)
BUT he still had to go through the suffering to know, fully, to know, as he is known.
Also, Ted at 1:13:21 "God forbid you avoid it."
I would say that, ultimately, I don't think you can. It's not what you are. Unless a human being is capable of willing their own unbeing. And I don't believe the human will can do that.
47:51 Job doesn't say he will see his redeemer though, he says he wishes it were such but that it isn't no?
It seems like he is having some kind of vision at this point. He sees the Redeemer standing on earth at the end, at the setting of the sun in the west. It's sort of apocalyptic. Similar to Daniel 7:13 maybe - "I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man"
Worth a 2nd listen
8:28- curious that Christians put Job as the beginning of the wisdom books. We don't have an order of Wisdom Books - Job is in the Order of Writings (and not Prophets interestingly)
Either way the first things book sra ethe same BUT the order is reversed, for us it's Psalms then Proverbs and only then Job.
Yeah, I don't make too much of this. It's one of those points that you could see significance in either way. Either opening up one to the wisdom books, or once learning wisdom, then shown the inherent limitations compared to the wisdom of God.
Looking forward to this! (No pressure 😎)
I think it was pretty good, if I say so myself. Ted was great to talk to and we hit on quite a few important points.
My fav Job discussion. Has all the things in, maybe, their best form.
49:30 it's not clear to me that Job can be generalized. What he needed to do for him and his truth and transformation may not be how we need to...
This is my question right now. Are there any principles we can take away? When we are suffering? When we are the friend to someone who suffers?
Are ‘perfect’ and ‘without sin’ the same thing? Can one not transgress the boundary, and yet still fall short of maximal quality? Perhaps another way of asking this is, is Job changed to a higher degree of ‘quality’ Job as a result of his experience? Or is Job unchanged by the ordeal because he’s already blameless?
This is the way I like to think about it. You could have a "perfect" 10-year-old kid. They are just the most ideal 10-year-old ever. But if in 10 years they still acted like a 10-year-old, that would be a problem. They should transform from a child to an adult at some point and not remain a child forever.
Another example: The perfect apple. Perfect in size and shape and ripeness. But apples are meant to either be eaten or to fall to the ground and the seeds are planted in the ground. There is a time and a season for everything.
So I see Job transformed from one state to another more glorious one.
23:04 but did his friends even need a mediator before they misspoke? Or did the solution also percipitate their very sin?
Right. They didn't seek God's face like Job did, because they were afraid. The sacrifice and mediation is a mercy to them, but they still don't see God like they should because of it.
13:27 “what if the worst thing possible happens to the best man possible?”
Word. Whatever could you be referencing?
23:49 “book starts out with an accuser in Heaven and ends with a mediator on Earth.” 👏🏼
36:50 Job: “tell me what I’ve done wrong (and I’ll accept it).”
God: “No”
37:12 hmmm i mean there is no word for indict in biblical Hebrew, this is being read in by your translation.i can only find two places English translations user it. It seems to be an exegetical addition that had no corresponding Hebrew in ch 13 and in 31 its being used to translate תוי which is just an X shaped mark (much like in the prophecy where those being judged are marked with an X)
Interesting. Thanks for bringing this up.
Thanks for the time, Jess. I'm going to be chewing on this for days...
Ted, it was a pleasure. Thanks for setting this up. It was so good.
59:13 “even [God as the Trinity] doesn’t get away from suffering.”
Peter who?
"Get behind me, Satan."
Great video! What was the book about the monk Ted mentioned?
He mentioned a few books. I can't remember which one you're referencing, but I could probably find it if you give me some more details...
@@WhiteStoneName Sci-Fi novel about a monk 600 years after some sort of apocalypse, and then another 600 years or so pass and then another each time following a different person, and then all of it comes to some interesting conclusion in the last chapter.
@@alistair1879 A Canticle for Leibowitz, by Walter Miller
@@The_Golden_Echo Thank you both!
@@alistair1879 1:22:22 A Canticle for Leibowitz.
Searched the transcript. ;) fyi.
Hmm i dont have the same vision of a fixes/static eschatology i guess. This comes back with my perennial comment to Sam on final telos- does higher and deeper ever end? Unless we just become one with God and desolve into infinitude im not sure
Present.
IN PERSON!
It’s a Wonderful Life! 🤩 My favourite movie! Did you know it was considered a flop when it came out?! Kind of like the Book of Job! 😂😉
God’s terrible Goodness is why I call our future “terrifyingly optimistic.”
If the question is whether we can judge because the story is over or we cant and therefore still need to follow the wisdom of the Law sounds precisly like the ongoing debate between Christianity and Judaism (just like why our bible is not U shaped and yours is....)
I have ideas about this, not necessarily about Judaism and Christianity, but about the flat story as opposed to the u-shaped story. Kurt Vonnegut talks about the flat story as "the honest truth" and uses Hamlet as an example.
@@JessPurviancesend it? Flat seems like a weird way to describe it...
@@yosefrazin6455 I think he talks about it as flat because of the way that something good can also turn out to be bad and something bad turns out to be good, like the Chinese Farmer parable.
Jess can work and talk about Job! 😎
😅
Regarding poetry. Poetry is Incarnation.
4:02 you got MARRIED TO YOUR HOMETOWN?!
Wow
I think that's a country song
Why is Jess sitting higher? Alpha move?
Absolutely
1:27:40 "God's not just snapping his fingers making robots. This isn't happening as a simulation or a trick. If God wants to have REAL sons and daughters, this is how it's done." ❤🔥
There is no magic switch. To become like Christ, Christ in me, I have to suffer. I have to mediate. I have to forgive, like I've been forgiven.
There are huge ramifications for eschatology here, too. And sanctification. We must ACTUALLY embody Christ in our own bodies. We can't just wait for God (whatever THAT means) to come and fix it all for us, apart from us doing it.
Does Christ choose it or accept it?
"Not my will by your will"
Probably better to say he accepted it.
Yes.
@@WhiteStoneName interesting…… I’m not sure there was a choice.
@@shari6063 not in a gnomic sense. But there was a correspondence of will, I suppose is what I’m saying.
@@WhiteStoneName this is from Christ’s perspective, his choice. But his acceptance denotes a world in which there is no alternative. I also think the cup imagery in the prayer of Gethsemane also points to acceptance. But I will have to think about it more.
Regarding knowing and "you can't know'.
One can though, via faith. We can't know objectively because that's always been the illusion of Divided Man. Kant was right. The agnostics are right. We CANNOT know *that way*. It's antibeing. It's not who a person is to know that way. I'm not even sure that God knows that way. This is maybe what Peter Rollins is getting at by saying that Unknowing is ontic, going all the way down to Being itself. It's not just about epistemology.
1:24:25 "You can't see that, and you can't ask to see that. All you can do is live for it."
👏👏👏
Promo-SM
You should just rename this: theodicy solved.
We are making progress
When you fold suffering into the process of creation, in making new Beings, it becomes clear, IMO