The first thing I noticed in that article was the fact that they were only talking about the first wave of rules and books. Sounded to me that they'll be releasing minis, rules and supplements much like they do in HH, so narratively. It's just that our story begins several decades before the GWAC and takes place in and around the border princes. I got the feeling this means they'll be adding on to the roster in terms of rules and minis as the story progresses and the venue changes. After all we were teased Kislevites and Cathay, not to mention all the faction coat of arms on the Old World Map. So these core factions are the ones we'll see in the first wave, with more implied to come in subsequent waves. The pdf legacy serving as an index until we get the rest.
Well put- that's the counter interpretation, yes. I hope its right, but my reading of their language (and the absence of saying that the legacy armies might get some future tlc when it would have been very easy to) pushed me into the pessimist column there. Let's both hope you're right though!
I've been wrong before but I get the feeling if things go well good things will happen down the line, and we have a whole generation Warhammer total War potential players. An example of which is my twin brother who has treated my miniature obsession with a mixture of complete disinterest to mockery. But after 10 years of being obsessed with Warhammer total War he's bought his first empire miniatures over the last couple of months. And I agree I very much get the feeling they are testing before they fully commit. I mean who knows this could be massive. I'm hoping with the bigger base sizes the outlay won't be as frightening to new players.
@@dannyhalas9408 As an Empire player, I'm definitely pro-bigger bases lol Those 6th ed multipart state troopers were a complete arse to base properly, and the 7th ed state troopers were even more awkward, particularly spearmen and halberdiers lol Across the board it kind of felt that a lot of units were on a base size too small.. it worked for monopose 5th ed minis, but once you started getting more dynamic pose options even minis like Orcs felt too big for 25mm
@@rubeniscool Yes! It’s a bit of a pain to rebase but seeing then all ranked up nicely makes it all worth it. The tiny square bases that came with the kits look ridiculously small.
Wood elves had some pretty evil things going on in 4th edition lore. Read the part about luring victims to the Glade of Woe for dark rituals on page 9 of their army book. They clearly aren't supposed to be "good". I think people just think of them as good because they are green loving, one with nature, elves - like hippies with bows. But that's not them, they are clearly based on the notion of a D&D-esc druid or something more like the pagan rituals portrayed in The Wicker Man. Remember woodlands can be beautiful pleasant places, but they can also be dark and sinister places. Similarly nature can be full of bountiful growth or poisons agressive danger. I think that's what Wood Elves are supposed to be, a middle ground that can't fully be trusted, like a wild animal.
As a Lizardmen player I kinda had already accepted this was coming so I'm not very disappointed in this confirmation. On the whole it's probably a good idea for The Old World design and development team to focus on fewer factions and try to make the best products and rules that they can. Then if successful they could start releasing new factions. For example they could repeat the "Lustria" supplement with Lizardmen, Skaven, and Dark Elves featured. Perhaps one day they could do a far east "supplement" with Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, and Cathay! The big one would of course be Asavar Kul's incursion which could see a big campaign book with Kislev and Daemons getting models. Basically this is similar to the trajectory the Total War: Warhammer factions were developed. I think the strangest relegation to "pdf" is Vampire Counts. I liked it when Von Carsteins weren't the only ones that were featured prominently. EDIT: hmm I thought of an important question for the community. What do we anticipate will be the norms of proxies/3rd party miniatures for units that have rules but are very difficult to source the "official" models for? For example if someone wanted to play as Chaos Dwarfs...
I wonder if there really is ANY difference between PDFs and the army books / supplements other than a cash grab for the latter? Warhammer players - and good game design - doesn't want fancy army rules as AoS and 40K have descended into. The Army list with a single quick army rule is entirely what the cook ordered. Lizardmen, Skaven, and Dark Elves - as well as Ogre Kingdoms, Undead, all have their entire model ranges available to buy - often with brand new updated plastics - from GW right now as we speak. It's more or less all there under their "AoS rebranding" but it's the same stuff. You can even save a massive amount of cash if you are lucky and a Start Collecting box is still available.
I really liked your video. It was nice to see a more detailed analysis, also being from an old time player’s perspective is refreshing. As another old time player I have miniatures from many of the factions and an interest in many of the factions. Luckily some are still being considered core and will get new miniatures and some love but unfortunately some are now being called legacy, which I don’t like the sound of, such as vampire counts. Sadly I’m not convinced they will re-release any kits for “legacy” factions but I would love to be wrong. I would also love it if this was more of a round one thing and that those “legacy” factions just need to wait their turn but the wording in their announcement didn’t inspire my with great confidence. Realistically it is a lot of factions to support for a game release so a staggered approach is fine but that isn’t what they really said it was. Assuming some part of their original game plan is still happening there will be some staggered approach taken as Kislev won’t get a look in until they want to give Chaos more of the spotlight. Ultimately a positive is that no matter what ends up happening we will get access to a range of great kits that have otherwise only been available at incredibly high prices on Ebay etc and even then very difficult to source. I’m also rather curious which miniatures will come out in metal since they did mention that some would, some of the best classics were metal such as dwarves and undead…having said that I don’t think metal will be on the cards for units but could be a thing for some characters?
You're philosophy is similar to mine (perhaps an old time player thing). Let's see what happens- we still know relatively little, even after these announcements!
I tell the guys from Warhammer Chaos and Conquest online that the Undead Skeletons are Skeletons from everybody's closets! LOL! I like those armies. They're fun to go after! Great video. It's interesting learning about different Warhammer games. We can learn a lot from them all. Keep us posted Dr. Blaxill!!!
Brilliant take as always. Think me being a long beard im leanjng towards sticking to renaissance. Its well supported and growing community who love the game for what it was. Its like an ode to previous editions. But i will ofc give this new stuff a go.
100% agree. We want the Old World for the old memories and mechanics. I hope they don’t lean too far away from what they deem old, because a lot of us like that stuff and no longer feel supported by it. Great video as always.
I recently got into Warmaster Revolution with the advent of 3D printers it is quite avordable and works really well on a 6 x 4 table. Also rules are free and Army builder is free. but i do miss the old 8th edition ruleset despite the fact i was using bretts and Skaven in older codexes.
I think the main reasons for the divide between core and pdf factions are commercial. If you look at the pdf factions, with the exception of chaos dwarfs, all can be bought currently at the GW store in the AoS section. Ogres, demons, skaven, dark elves, they are all there. Some, like Vampires and Lizardmen have also been upgraded. So anyone can actually buy a Fantasy army for those factions at the moment. Meanwhile, with the exception of Warriors of Chaos and Beastmen, the core factions have had their miniatures discontinued. We need them back at the store if we want to play them. It will be interesting, when Orcs and Goblins get released, next summer according to rumours, to see what they do with those models that are still on sale in the AoS store. Night goblins and Trolls, will they come in different boxes with different bases, do they ignore what's on sale for AoS and simply release older models? It remains to be seen. When we see what they do then, we shall have a clearer picture about Chaos Warriors, who did get AoS upgrades, Beastmen, who are used as is in AoS, as well as the pdf armies presuming there are plans for them in the future as well.
Who are you looking at replacing the Ogres with? I've been building a dwarf army out of the available GW kits in the age of Sigma range. Didn't really play much of eighth edition fantasy and have only just got round to reading the last army book... And fuck man I hate their rules, 3 inch movement and loads of artillery which will win or lose you the game based on luck not skill. Looking at some strategy guides my worst fears were confirmed, corner camping formations... Basically the sort of share I do on total war to cheese the AI! Basically by making it all about me (Sorry about that) I'm thinking about how important it is to do some research before committing to the faction. I really like the dwarf range and I'm enjoying painting them but I'm already thinking second faction that might be more fun on tabletop. Or something to bring to the table if my opponents get bored of being shot every game. Ogres were on the list, You can still buy their range, cool lore, low model count army.
@@dannyhalas9408 oh no i totally understand the conundrum! Ive been back and forth with who I wanted to start for old world, and I was very close to going all in on dark elves like I used to have back in the day, glad that I did not! I am going to play orcs and goblins going into old world, as I do have a decent size goblin army for AOS and it would be fairly easy to add a unit of black orcs and call it a day. i would really like to start high elves, but I feel a bit in limbo due to GW posting on facebook that 'factions that are not currently included may show up later', so the ogres may have their time in the sun afterall!
It is nice to have that divide between AoS versions and Fantasy versions of the armies, so the Empire doesn't have the Ogre riding marshall, or Chaos doesn't have the three-headed dragon thing that Archaon now rides, or the Beastmen don't have... wait, Beastmen haven't got anything new in AoS.
I will be impressed if TOW aligns with 6th edition closely, as in no random charges, no premeasuring, and hopefully many more mechanics that makes 6th the Queen of editions :)) Still, my expectations of the new team channeling Rick and the gang are low, and I can see TOW only becoming a "campaign supplement" for our precious 6th. My group is certainly not rebasing! The narrative of the timeframe is intriguing, though, with chaos ebbing, the Skaven merely a tale to scare children, the vampire lords scattered, etc. I was mainly excited for the rerelease of OOP models to strengthen a few depleted units in the collection. With Vampire Counts as a "legacy" faction, meaning no old stuff will be returning, I will still have to hunt on eBay, unfortunately. Thank you for the video and sharing your insight :)
I hope you're right. But, I can't but think that, if that was the plan, why do they not say that? Rather, they call them 'legacy armies' and talk about giving them rules 'for old times sake'. That sounds like they're winding them down, not lining them up for a second wave. They could easily have projected a quite different message there had they wished to. Perhaps it's just poor PR and clumsy wording, but short of that, I incline to the pessimistic view unfortunately. But each to his own interpretation.
@@DrBlaxill they did show us minis for Kislev so I have to believe we'll see them. Probably as an expansion scenario box. There have been rumors floating about a re-release of Island of blood and others, so that may be the plan for green skins. I am anticipating a series of scenario related releases that focus small, on a specific events, but as you say, GW has not been the most reliable as smart business decisions go!
These issues are substantially more important than the basing dilemma people are umming and ahhhing about. It will be much harder to play a vanilla legacy army against say, The Empire with flash new embellishments than it is ripping the bases off of 30 year old Troll Slayers.
Good point- I agree. The base thing has also just got less important gameplay wise because they've now said they're getting rid of base-to-base and just letting everyone fight.
There is this rumor going around that in the future maybe not initially that GW wish to keep the Age of Sigmar and Warhammer The Old World miniatures completely separate, So that say my Age of Sigmar Soulblight Gravelords will at first be able to be used as a Deathrattle army (I think this will fall under 'Vampire Counts') in Warhammer The Old World iniatially but maybe not in the future (for official tournaments anyways). I dunno what is going on to be honest exactly. 3:55
It makes sense, although I don't think they'll be bringing over some of the wackier factions I have noticed that a lot of the new Sigma releases just look like upgrades for old world ranges, like the new free Guild Knights that to me look like fantastic Empire cavalry with a steam tank aesthetic. We've got new goblin Wolf riders and the new undead dead stuff looks like it can go straight into fantasy.
Yes, this is a key point actually which I should have covered. What is the 'AOS Bridgeability' like of various factions. For some the models might work quite well- but in some cases the aesthetic is too high fantasy or they don't rank up.
As somebody who isn't invested in Warhammer Fantasy Battles, and likes the setting as an RPG setting but not where the necessities of being a wargame setting took it. I would have honestly preferred that the limited the focused factions more than they did, and put the energy into creating a good set of rank and flank unit based combat rules, which are balanced and engaging without having to add lots of special rules and fluff, and have the complexity in the places where it gives the best bang for buck. I don't think recreating Warhammer Fantasy Battles is or should be the point of the exercise. I don't think they will be re-releasing models for the non focus factions, however I think the whole demon range, Skaven range and significant parts of the Dark Elf range, vampire range are still used in Age of Sigmar, and will be available. There will most likely be some units that will require kitbashing (which honestly is a positive for me - I like everybodies army to look and feel different). Interestingly the new Age of Sigmar human models look like a better match for what the empire should look at the time the Old World is set than the old Warhammer Fantasy models, I am curious see what they do about that?
Any new edition is as a positive imho. One thing to note: Old World is done by Forge World and as such with the exception of a few starting products it won't take much space in the GW stores or get much promotion there, similar to Necromunda, Blood Bowl and such. Forge World caters to 'veteran' players and isn't under pressure to get new people into the hobby and this comes with its own up- and downsides. If Old World sparks sufficient interest I have no doubt they'll bring back the legacy factions (see Blood Bowl) - but if not a lower number of factions reduces the complexity and as such the relative costs for them which again results in less pressure on the team, which I count as a positive as well.
Great video, while I agree with most of your points, I have to disagree that fixed charges and pre-measuring is boring. Since WFB ended I‘ve been playing KoW and fixed charges work great. You can position accurately, plan out charges and feel like you are in control. Your opponent does the same and it turns into a fun back and forth of moving/counter-moving. Thanks to the scenarios and the fact that someone always has the speed advantage, it very rarely becomes a mexican stand-off. I‘d be happy if ToW takes this approach.
I've also played some KOW and like the game- although its a very different creature indeed to Fantasy. I think that this pre-measuring plus fixed charges works there because KOW is essentially a much simpler game based on unit trades (that's not to say that's a bad thing- it's just different). Not as many crazy things happen and you can, like chess, plot out sequences of unit exchanges with much more certainty than with Fantasy. There's also of course no fleeing in the game and in your turns, only you roll dice. However, perhaps it would just be different and the game would end up as a hybrid between Fantasy and KOW. For some people, that might be ideal.
Let’s look at the economics of it, because we know that money drives GW. We have a ton of Seraphon models being produced for AoS. They could add a narrative story for the Old World, and we would buy into the awesome new Seraphon models, rebranded as “Lizardmen”, and buy them all up. You have two settings, or narrative stories, using the same base models: it would lead to more sales to have them in your narrative of the new game. I think that if you follow the money, they will just release the models into the new Old World army lists, come out with Army Books for them, and push them. Same for Chaos, Skaven, Empire as ‘Cities of Sigmar’, etc. So stay positive! I think this game will have a LOT of room to grow…. This is just the beginning. (I hope!)
That's a good argument, and it's the obvious point I missed. That where AOS creates models that are very plausible OW ports (some are, some aren't) then the GW investment required to bring them back is pretty small- and thus there's an additional incentive to put them in as proper armies. However it would be a strange quirk of fate if (say) GW are selling the same models under two different names. Seraphon packed with round bases and Lizardmen with square!
@@DrBlaxill Plenty of AoS units still come with both bases lol I suppose it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to simply include the WHFB names on the boxes alongside the AoS names. Skaven, Lizardmen and Vampire Counts are pretty much the only factions not included in ToW that are also virtually untouched by the move from WHFB to AoS.
I think the cautious approach is a good one. It has that feels that "new" armies will come out eventually I stead of all of them at once. It is a way to check the waters and to stretch releases across a period of time. Also great for narrative, and meanwhile the army's not in focus can still be playing. I can't wait for vamps great return. At least it feels better than play 8ed I think.
Extremely interesting considering that the whole thing starts in the Border Princes, right? I think that we get a narrative that starts with the Tomb Kings coming up through the Border Princes, and heads into Bretonnia from there. Opens up the Dogs of War for a revival right there.
Good point. However, while Dogs of War have been an actual army at points, they've also been a repositary of mercenaries to hitch onto existing armies- so perhaps existing armies might get access to them.
Was hoping you would make a vid on the issue as I was curious about your view.. I´m not too worried about the "Core" and the others. Ravening Hordes was good, balanced. A nice time. But agreed, best used against each others. I interpreted it, also, as not the focus, now.. If the game is successful, they will se the spotlight on them.. But then again, I play Orcs & Goblins - always a book first or second during an edition. And then quickly power creept.. Still hopeful, positive.. We´ll see.
I don't think it's safe to assume that the pdf factions will have models re-released, especially not any time soon. 9 (core) factions worth of kits is already a crazy amount of retooling and logistics, etc. From a sheer manufacturing limitation perspective, I'll be surprised if even the 9 core factions even get all their old models supported right away. If they do then it's a massive achievement. Also, regarding the pdf rule viability question. Ultimately it will come down to how closely TOW cleaves to older fantasy edtions, particularly 8th. If it is very similar, you may in fact see an almost 1 to 1 direct port of older rules over, which could be good or bad depending on faction. If the rules are a significant departure, then it's much more likely that they will be more vanilla, less playtested etc, as you point out. Moreover, like Horus Heresy, this game won't have the competition treatment that 40k gets, where things are frequently updated and rebalanced, the emphasis will be on narrative, so brace yourselves for rules and points that are going to need community support to make it more viable. My 2 cents.
Some good follow on points there. I don't know much about the logistics about the technical feasibility of reissuing the 8th ed ranges. My instinct is that they surely would do this- but maybe that's not a given as you say. I also like your point about the rule porting. If it's 8th ed reheated, then they can just port the old rules. However all rumours I've read suggest it's going to be a cocktail of different versions- and if that's the case legacy PDFs ware likely to only come in vanilla flavour.
The rumor I heard is that GW factories are already a max capacity and atm they cannot afford to alot more production to the old world and hence the reduced list of supported armies.
Played Warmachine/Hordes when it was first released & destroyed a few people. I gave it up because there weren't any other players in my home town. There's a game store about 30 miles away now & I'll probably start playing The Old World when it comes out. I'm not a fan of futuristic settings, which is why I never wanted to play 40K. But this seems drastically different. I just don't want to spend cash on a game that gets discontinued. I just hope it doesn't eventually get discontinued. I don't like the idea of hard reboots.
If they're going to do it, pre-measuring has got to go. I'd keep random charges, but they want to double up, it's time to make us put down our tape measures. (That rumour I've been told about a couple of times by 'in the know' people but I wouln't take it that seriously yet)
@@DrBlaxill How does that even work? Me and my friends got precious few WHFB games in b4 the end times. But like you measure something (say confirm a range for a unit to be able to shoot) how are you NOT supposed to notice how other units measure in relation as you lay the measuring tape out? 😅 Mby we will house rule it. Anyways good content man 👍
Yep, random charge ranges are quite a good innovation. Speed up movement phases because you aren't constantly trying to put your unit 8.1 inches from this and 7.9 inches from that. I think I'd prefer a D3 random roll rather than 2D6 though.
@@benneem D3 in general should be more utilized- for example I think all cannons should 'scatter' from the initial hit point D3" to prevent sniping individuals. I say this as a Dwarf player 😅
@@Tartersauce101 they attempt to do something like that in the Warhammer Armies Project rules, but I'm not quite happy with the specific implementation there. The WAP cannon rules have the strange effect where a unit that is 12" away causes the angle of the cannon shot to deviate 4 times more than when shooting at a unit 48" away!
Not to sound too mean but we Bretonnians have had to wait since 6th ed for any sort of refresh/update, I'm sure pdf armies can wait a year or two for new goodies (not like vampire counts and lizardmen just had a huge model refresh or anything)
Great video I think your pessism is correct. We shouldn't forget, that they promised cathay as a faction and heavily hinted at kislev, so every one expected more factions than in 8tg Edition. Now we get even less
I think we'll hear something more on the 'new' armies point. Again, if there were going to be new armies maybe, they could have said that and did not. A lot of my pessimism though could be explained by a poorly worded article...that's what I'm hoping for.
The announcement personally didn't bother me at all, with all the fuss I assumed the PDF factions were being completely ignored. But obviously with free PDF rules we can still play them which is all I really want... Obviously with model support. As a non-competitive beer and pretzels gamer I'd actually prefer to have a PDF faction, you save money on the book and in a funny sort of way I like being the underdog if GW does their normal power creep sort of thing to sell their codexes.
I think at the beginning when it's pdf rules for all the game even be at its best- before the power creep begins. That would be most analogous to ravening hordes in 6th ed.
@@DrBlaxill I didn’t play 6th edition, but I think I know what you mean from the indexes from the start of eighth edition 40k. It was simpler, balanced to some degree, and tricked me into thinking 40k was going to be a great game. Quite honestly we should of ignored the codexes that ruined the game with pay to win rules and stuck with the index books. Maybe a lesson for the old world?
Well I don't think it's fair to say Lizard man aren't going to get any new units, they've just got a heap of wonderful new units, a new slann, new Kroxigor, new Salamanders, new Saurus Warrors (which unfortunately don't rank up even on bigger bases :/) and beautiful new Chameleon Skinks. We even a underworld's lizard man squad team thing with fantastic proxies for a lot of the classic lizard lords like a really cool Oxyotl standing up on his stick with his blowpipe and a easily convertible Gor-Rok with a weapon swap.
True- there's an uneven port across with the AOS models which might be adaptable- and some of them could easily be from the old world if the AOS design isn't too 'out there'. I suppose I mean- dedicated OW models.
@@DrBlaxill Yeah, the new lizardmen releases have been quite fortunate that none of them are flying on dolphins or wearing cow heads. And I think it’s a great value army for new players if they can jump on the start collecting boxes that are still floating around.
I want to start playing this when it comes out. It seems like GW is all over the place. It seems like they don't have a cohesive vision as a company. I don't want to spend a thousand dollars on a game if it ends up getting discontinued. That's the only worry I have
When we had that 1st article 3 years ago I was rather happy but with each new bit of info/news article I'm seeming losing interest and becoming rather jaded and cynical toward it. Though I guess it doesn't help matters that I have got big into WAP 9th since then and have a nice local playerbase and an extended London group which makes me think I really don't need to jump over to TOW for my WhFB fix.
You and me both, to be honest. WAP and T9A are also little communities that some gamers have found happiness in- which one imagines will see players leave them when TOW comes out.
I found the vc not being supported odd, I would of thought having vlad trying to be emperor would of been around that time. Given how popular daemons are, it’s just so odd.
It's set just decades before the siege of Praag.. Vlad and his kin are absolutely, most definitely not around at this point. He "died" around 2050 (Siege of Altdorf, the event you seem to be referring to) and wasn't resurrected until the End Times 500 years later. From the latest article, we know it's set after the Vampire Wars, so the rest of them are also "dead", Mannfred coming back in 2505 and Isabella during the End Times. Konrad died during the second Vampire Wars and never returned. There's basically a gap between 2145IC and 2505IC where all the Von Carsteins aren't around. Praag happens around 2300 and ToC seems to be set within 100 years of that. So definitely no Vampire Counts about.
@@rubeniscool I find it odd setting at that time when it’s going to exclude an entire race. As others have pointed out, they aren’t the online bloodline either Plus side is we are probably going to see some old chaos characters from champions of chaos. Arbaal, Valnir, possible count modrek the damned seem likely characters. Harry the hammer could be another (given he’s now in warhammer 3).
@@markbedwell3100 which is why they're still included via legacy pdfs. True they weren't the only bloodline, but they were the most influential and the strongest, with other families taking their cue from them. After the Vampire Wars, the vampire population where pretty much obliterated and the rest went into hiding. There was a 400 year period where you just didn't get any conflicts related to Vampires. Not until 2505, or 3 years after Karl Franz became emperor that you had any real Vampiric influence returning. And then it was only Mannfred. We only had minis for the other vampires because the WHFB timeline was pretty wide and we were given the ability to play in pretty much any era. Same reason we had a mini for Marius Leitdorf who was already dead by 2522-5, the official time one of WHFB. The only other notable Vampire btw was Merovech of Mousillon but that doesn't help us either because he died before Vlad and he too didn't return until Louen Leonceour was King of Bretonnia, well after the great war against Chaos.
@@rubeniscool that isn’t why they are legacy, they are legacy because people had the armies, much like they did chaos dwarfs. It’s amazing your only focusing on the negative part of my post in your response. Any who, have a lovely day.
"For old times sake" ... well, the whole thing is called Warhammer: The OLD World. They are going all in on old stuff and nostalgia, they should embrace it rather than look down on it.
Yeah really hope they kill off Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre kingdoms. Find it annoying that they have goblins/orcs. They should only have their own race then they could be allowed in the game. Other wargames like Warmachine have no random charges and allowed to measure before. It works great. Never got annoyed by it. Magic will most likely focus a lot on movement that increases charges then.
I hope they hold to this idea of a low ebb of Chaos. Having it step back a bit should make the world seem richer.
and set the ground work for narrative interest if/when they later get to the Great War
That's one of the things I'm most looking forward to
It would be a nice change of pace for once.
The first thing I noticed in that article was the fact that they were only talking about the first wave of rules and books. Sounded to me that they'll be releasing minis, rules and supplements much like they do in HH, so narratively. It's just that our story begins several decades before the GWAC and takes place in and around the border princes.
I got the feeling this means they'll be adding on to the roster in terms of rules and minis as the story progresses and the venue changes. After all we were teased Kislevites and Cathay, not to mention all the faction coat of arms on the Old World Map.
So these core factions are the ones we'll see in the first wave, with more implied to come in subsequent waves. The pdf legacy serving as an index until we get the rest.
Well put- that's the counter interpretation, yes. I hope its right, but my reading of their language (and the absence of saying that the legacy armies might get some future tlc when it would have been very easy to) pushed me into the pessimist column there. Let's both hope you're right though!
I've been wrong before but I get the feeling if things go well good things will happen down the line, and we have a whole generation Warhammer total War potential players. An example of which is my twin brother who has treated my miniature obsession with a mixture of complete disinterest to mockery. But after 10 years of being obsessed with Warhammer total War he's bought his first empire miniatures over the last couple of months.
And I agree I very much get the feeling they are testing before they fully commit. I mean who knows this could be massive. I'm hoping with the bigger base sizes the outlay won't be as frightening to new players.
Its going to be all about the money as usual. If it sells they will expand.
@@dannyhalas9408 As an Empire player, I'm definitely pro-bigger bases lol Those 6th ed multipart state troopers were a complete arse to base properly, and the 7th ed state troopers were even more awkward, particularly spearmen and halberdiers lol
Across the board it kind of felt that a lot of units were on a base size too small.. it worked for monopose 5th ed minis, but once you started getting more dynamic pose options even minis like Orcs felt too big for 25mm
@@rubeniscool Yes! It’s a bit of a pain to rebase but seeing then all ranked up nicely makes it all worth it. The tiny square bases that came with the kits look ridiculously small.
Andy Hoare being in charge gives me some hope. he wrote the most balanced books in 6th/7th.
Wood elves had some pretty evil things going on in 4th edition lore. Read the part about luring victims to the Glade of Woe for dark rituals on page 9 of their army book.
They clearly aren't supposed to be "good". I think people just think of them as good because they are green loving, one with nature, elves - like hippies with bows. But that's not them, they are clearly based on the notion of a D&D-esc druid or something more like the pagan rituals portrayed in The Wicker Man.
Remember woodlands can be beautiful pleasant places, but they can also be dark and sinister places. Similarly nature can be full of bountiful growth or poisons agressive danger. I think that's what Wood Elves are supposed to be, a middle ground that can't fully be trusted, like a wild animal.
I'm not familiar with the Lore, but have Wood Elves ever gotten out of the woods and gone on a total invasion of Bretonnia(as an example)?
Love your videos. Always looking forward to hear you talking about warhammer. Thanks.
Greetings from Spain 🇪🇸
As a Lizardmen player I kinda had already accepted this was coming so I'm not very disappointed in this confirmation.
On the whole it's probably a good idea for The Old World design and development team to focus on fewer factions and try to make the best products and rules that they can. Then if successful they could start releasing new factions.
For example they could repeat the "Lustria" supplement with Lizardmen, Skaven, and Dark Elves featured. Perhaps one day they could do a far east "supplement" with Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, and Cathay! The big one would of course be Asavar Kul's incursion which could see a big campaign book with Kislev and Daemons getting models.
Basically this is similar to the trajectory the Total War: Warhammer factions were developed.
I think the strangest relegation to "pdf" is Vampire Counts. I liked it when Von Carsteins weren't the only ones that were featured prominently.
EDIT: hmm I thought of an important question for the community. What do we anticipate will be the norms of proxies/3rd party miniatures for units that have rules but are very difficult to source the "official" models for? For example if someone wanted to play as Chaos Dwarfs...
I wonder if there really is ANY difference between PDFs and the army books / supplements other than a cash grab for the latter?
Warhammer players - and good game design - doesn't want fancy army rules as AoS and 40K have descended into. The Army list with a single quick army rule is entirely what the cook ordered.
Lizardmen, Skaven, and Dark Elves - as well as Ogre Kingdoms, Undead, all have their entire model ranges available to buy - often with brand new updated plastics - from GW right now as we speak. It's more or less all there under their "AoS rebranding" but it's the same stuff. You can even save a massive amount of cash if you are lucky and a Start Collecting box is still available.
A fine analysis my dear Dr.
I really liked your video. It was nice to see a more detailed analysis, also being from an old time player’s perspective is refreshing.
As another old time player I have miniatures from many of the factions and an interest in many of the factions. Luckily some are still being considered core and will get new miniatures and some love but unfortunately some are now being called legacy, which I don’t like the sound of, such as vampire counts. Sadly I’m not convinced they will re-release any kits for “legacy” factions but I would love to be wrong. I would also love it if this was more of a round one thing and that those “legacy” factions just need to wait their turn but the wording in their announcement didn’t inspire my with great confidence. Realistically it is a lot of factions to support for a game release so a staggered approach is fine but that isn’t what they really said it was. Assuming some part of their original game plan is still happening there will be some staggered approach taken as Kislev won’t get a look in until they want to give Chaos more of the spotlight.
Ultimately a positive is that no matter what ends up happening we will get access to a range of great kits that have otherwise only been available at incredibly high prices on Ebay etc and even then very difficult to source. I’m also rather curious which miniatures will come out in metal since they did mention that some would, some of the best classics were metal such as dwarves and undead…having said that I don’t think metal will be on the cards for units but could be a thing for some characters?
You're philosophy is similar to mine (perhaps an old time player thing). Let's see what happens- we still know relatively little, even after these announcements!
I tell the guys from Warhammer Chaos and Conquest online that the Undead Skeletons are Skeletons from everybody's closets! LOL! I like those armies. They're fun to go after! Great video. It's interesting learning about different Warhammer games. We can learn a lot from them all. Keep us posted Dr. Blaxill!!!
Good video and awesome picture behind you.
it's the original 🙂
Brilliant take as always. Think me being a long beard im leanjng towards sticking to renaissance. Its well supported and growing community who love the game for what it was. Its like an ode to previous editions. But i will ofc give this new stuff a go.
100% agree. We want the Old World for the old memories and mechanics. I hope they don’t lean too far away from what they deem old, because a lot of us like that stuff and no longer feel supported by it. Great video as always.
I recently got into Warmaster Revolution with the advent of 3D printers it is quite avordable and works really well on a 6 x 4 table. Also rules are free and Army builder is free. but i do miss the old 8th edition ruleset despite the fact i was using bretts and Skaven in older codexes.
I think the main reasons for the divide between core and pdf factions are commercial.
If you look at the pdf factions, with the exception of chaos dwarfs, all can be bought currently at the GW store in the AoS section. Ogres, demons, skaven, dark elves, they are all there.
Some, like Vampires and Lizardmen have also been upgraded. So anyone can actually buy a Fantasy army for those factions at the moment.
Meanwhile, with the exception of Warriors of Chaos and Beastmen, the core factions have had their miniatures discontinued. We need them back at the store if we want to play them.
It will be interesting, when Orcs and Goblins get released, next summer according to rumours, to see what they do with those models that are still on sale in the AoS store. Night goblins and Trolls, will they come in different boxes with different bases, do they ignore what's on sale for AoS and simply release older models? It remains to be seen.
When we see what they do then, we shall have a clearer picture about Chaos Warriors, who did get AoS upgrades, Beastmen, who are used as is in AoS, as well as the pdf armies presuming there are plans for them in the future as well.
Really enjoy your content Dr Luke.
im so glad you released a video about this! I traded for a huge ogre army 2 days before this announcement RIP
Who are you looking at replacing the Ogres with?
I've been building a dwarf army out of the available GW kits in the age of Sigma range. Didn't really play much of eighth edition fantasy and have only just got round to reading the last army book... And fuck man I hate their rules, 3 inch movement and loads of artillery which will win or lose you the game based on luck not skill. Looking at some strategy guides my worst fears were confirmed, corner camping formations... Basically the sort of share I do on total war to cheese the AI!
Basically by making it all about me (Sorry about that) I'm thinking about how important it is to do some research before committing to the faction. I really like the dwarf range and I'm enjoying painting them but I'm already thinking second faction that might be more fun on tabletop. Or something to bring to the table if my opponents get bored of being shot every game. Ogres were on the list, You can still buy their range, cool lore, low model count army.
@@dannyhalas9408 oh no i totally understand the conundrum! Ive been back and forth with who I wanted to start for old world, and I was very close to going all in on dark elves like I used to have back in the day, glad that I did not! I am going to play orcs and goblins going into old world, as I do have a decent size goblin army for AOS and it would be fairly easy to add a unit of black orcs and call it a day.
i would really like to start high elves, but I feel a bit in limbo due to GW posting on facebook that 'factions that are not currently included may show up later', so the ogres may have their time in the sun afterall!
Doctor Luke! We need your new Old World video on Psychology! Hope you are well and ty for the content!
It is nice to have that divide between AoS versions and Fantasy versions of the armies, so the Empire doesn't have the Ogre riding marshall, or Chaos doesn't have the three-headed dragon thing that Archaon now rides, or the Beastmen don't have...
wait, Beastmen haven't got anything new in AoS.
I will be impressed if TOW aligns with 6th edition closely, as in no random charges, no premeasuring, and hopefully many more mechanics that makes 6th the Queen of editions :)) Still, my expectations of the new team channeling Rick and the gang are low, and I can see TOW only becoming a "campaign supplement" for our precious 6th. My group is certainly not rebasing! The narrative of the timeframe is intriguing, though, with chaos ebbing, the Skaven merely a tale to scare children, the vampire lords scattered, etc. I was mainly excited for the rerelease of OOP models to strengthen a few depleted units in the collection. With Vampire Counts as a "legacy" faction, meaning no old stuff will be returning, I will still have to hunt on eBay, unfortunately. Thank you for the video and sharing your insight :)
Ruben nailed it. This is the first wave.
I hope you're right. But, I can't but think that, if that was the plan, why do they not say that? Rather, they call them 'legacy armies' and talk about giving them rules 'for old times sake'. That sounds like they're winding them down, not lining them up for a second wave. They could easily have projected a quite different message there had they wished to. Perhaps it's just poor PR and clumsy wording, but short of that, I incline to the pessimistic view unfortunately. But each to his own interpretation.
@@DrBlaxill they did show us minis for Kislev so I have to believe we'll see them. Probably as an expansion scenario box. There have been rumors floating about a re-release of Island of blood and others, so that may be the plan for green skins.
I am anticipating a series of scenario related releases that focus small, on a specific events, but as you say, GW has not been the most reliable as smart business decisions go!
These issues are substantially more important than the basing dilemma people are umming and ahhhing about. It will be much harder to play a vanilla legacy army against say, The Empire with flash new embellishments than it is ripping the bases off of 30 year old Troll Slayers.
Good point- I agree. The base thing has also just got less important gameplay wise because they've now said they're getting rid of base-to-base and just letting everyone fight.
Thank you for Your insight it is appreciated as always!
There is this rumor going around that in the future maybe not initially that GW wish to keep the Age of Sigmar and Warhammer The Old World miniatures completely separate, So that say my Age of Sigmar Soulblight Gravelords will at first be able to be used as a Deathrattle army (I think this will fall under 'Vampire Counts') in Warhammer The Old World iniatially but maybe not in the future (for official tournaments anyways).
I dunno what is going on to be honest exactly. 3:55
It makes sense, although I don't think they'll be bringing over some of the wackier factions I have noticed that a lot of the new Sigma releases just look like upgrades for old world ranges, like the new free Guild Knights that to me look like fantastic Empire cavalry with a steam tank aesthetic. We've got new goblin Wolf riders and the new undead dead stuff looks like it can go straight into fantasy.
Yes, this is a key point actually which I should have covered. What is the 'AOS Bridgeability' like of various factions. For some the models might work quite well- but in some cases the aesthetic is too high fantasy or they don't rank up.
As somebody who isn't invested in Warhammer Fantasy Battles, and likes the setting as an RPG setting but not where the necessities of being a wargame setting took it.
I would have honestly preferred that the limited the focused factions more than they did, and put the energy into creating a good set of rank and flank unit based combat rules, which are balanced and engaging without having to add lots of special rules and fluff, and have the complexity in the places where it gives the best bang for buck. I don't think recreating Warhammer Fantasy Battles is or should be the point of the exercise.
I don't think they will be re-releasing models for the non focus factions, however I think the whole demon range, Skaven range and significant parts of the Dark Elf range, vampire range are still used in Age of Sigmar, and will be available. There will most likely be some units that will require kitbashing (which honestly is a positive for me - I like everybodies army to look and feel different).
Interestingly the new Age of Sigmar human models look like a better match for what the empire should look at the time the Old World is set than the old Warhammer Fantasy models, I am curious see what they do about that?
Any new edition is as a positive imho.
One thing to note: Old World is done by Forge World and as such with the exception of a few starting products it won't take much space in the GW stores or get much promotion there, similar to Necromunda, Blood Bowl and such. Forge World caters to 'veteran' players and isn't under pressure to get new people into the hobby and this comes with its own up- and downsides. If Old World sparks sufficient interest I have no doubt they'll bring back the legacy factions (see Blood Bowl) - but if not a lower number of factions reduces the complexity and as such the relative costs for them which again results in less pressure on the team, which I count as a positive as well.
Warhammer Armies Project has PDF army books. We can dream!
Nice one! Will you maybe post an army showcase of ur Bretonnian Army like you did with your Chaos warriors?
Great video, while I agree with most of your points, I have to disagree that fixed charges and pre-measuring is boring. Since WFB ended I‘ve been playing KoW and fixed charges work great. You can position accurately, plan out charges and feel like you are in control. Your opponent does the same and it turns into a fun back and forth of moving/counter-moving. Thanks to the scenarios and the fact that someone always has the speed advantage, it very rarely becomes a mexican stand-off. I‘d be happy if ToW takes this approach.
I've also played some KOW and like the game- although its a very different creature indeed to Fantasy. I think that this pre-measuring plus fixed charges works there because KOW is essentially a much simpler game based on unit trades (that's not to say that's a bad thing- it's just different). Not as many crazy things happen and you can, like chess, plot out sequences of unit exchanges with much more certainty than with Fantasy. There's also of course no fleeing in the game and in your turns, only you roll dice. However, perhaps it would just be different and the game would end up as a hybrid between Fantasy and KOW. For some people, that might be ideal.
Let’s look at the economics of it, because we know that money drives GW. We have a ton of Seraphon models being produced for AoS. They could add a narrative story for the Old World, and we would buy into the awesome new Seraphon models, rebranded as “Lizardmen”, and buy them all up. You have two settings, or narrative stories, using the same base models: it would lead to more sales to have them in your narrative of the new game. I think that if you follow the money, they will just release the models into the new Old World army lists, come out with Army Books for them, and push them. Same for Chaos, Skaven, Empire as ‘Cities of Sigmar’, etc. So stay positive! I think this game will have a LOT of room to grow…. This is just the beginning. (I hope!)
That's a good argument, and it's the obvious point I missed. That where AOS creates models that are very plausible OW ports (some are, some aren't) then the GW investment required to bring them back is pretty small- and thus there's an additional incentive to put them in as proper armies. However it would be a strange quirk of fate if (say) GW are selling the same models under two different names. Seraphon packed with round bases and Lizardmen with square!
@@DrBlaxill Plenty of AoS units still come with both bases lol I suppose it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to simply include the WHFB names on the boxes alongside the AoS names.
Skaven, Lizardmen and Vampire Counts are pretty much the only factions not included in ToW that are also virtually untouched by the move from WHFB to AoS.
Perhaps the Empire will get Ogres and halflings again! 😊
I think the cautious approach is a good one. It has that feels that "new" armies will come out eventually I stead of all of them at once. It is a way to check the waters and to stretch releases across a period of time. Also great for narrative, and meanwhile the army's not in focus can still be playing. I can't wait for vamps great return. At least it feels better than play 8ed I think.
Not even a mention for Dogs of War...
Extremely interesting considering that the whole thing starts in the Border Princes, right? I think that we get a narrative that starts with the Tomb Kings coming up through the Border Princes, and heads into Bretonnia from there. Opens up the Dogs of War for a revival right there.
Good point. However, while Dogs of War have been an actual army at points, they've also been a repositary of mercenaries to hitch onto existing armies- so perhaps existing armies might get access to them.
Lo! I think I hear the mustering horn of the Fighting Cocks upon the wind! Save me a pie, lads, I'm on my way!
Was hoping you would make a vid on the issue as I was curious about your view..
I´m not too worried about the "Core" and the others. Ravening Hordes was good, balanced. A nice time. But agreed, best used against each others.
I interpreted it, also, as not the focus, now.. If the game is successful, they will se the spotlight on them..
But then again, I play Orcs & Goblins - always a book first or second during an edition. And then quickly power creept..
Still hopeful, positive.. We´ll see.
I don't think it's safe to assume that the pdf factions will have models re-released, especially not any time soon. 9 (core) factions worth of kits is already a crazy amount of retooling and logistics, etc. From a sheer manufacturing limitation perspective, I'll be surprised if even the 9 core factions even get all their old models supported right away. If they do then it's a massive achievement.
Also, regarding the pdf rule viability question. Ultimately it will come down to how closely TOW cleaves to older fantasy edtions, particularly 8th. If it is very similar, you may in fact see an almost 1 to 1 direct port of older rules over, which could be good or bad depending on faction. If the rules are a significant departure, then it's much more likely that they will be more vanilla, less playtested etc, as you point out. Moreover, like Horus Heresy, this game won't have the competition treatment that 40k gets, where things are frequently updated and rebalanced, the emphasis will be on narrative, so brace yourselves for rules and points that are going to need community support to make it more viable. My 2 cents.
Some good follow on points there. I don't know much about the logistics about the technical feasibility of reissuing the 8th ed ranges. My instinct is that they surely would do this- but maybe that's not a given as you say.
I also like your point about the rule porting. If it's 8th ed reheated, then they can just port the old rules. However all rumours I've read suggest it's going to be a cocktail of different versions- and if that's the case legacy PDFs ware likely to only come in vanilla flavour.
The rumor I heard is that GW factories are already a max capacity and atm they cannot afford to alot more production to the old world and hence the reduced list of supported armies.
Played Warmachine/Hordes when it was first released & destroyed a few people. I gave it up because there weren't any other players in my home town. There's a game store about 30 miles away now & I'll probably start playing The Old World when it comes out. I'm not a fan of futuristic settings, which is why I never wanted to play 40K. But this seems drastically different. I just don't want to spend cash on a game that gets discontinued. I just hope it doesn't eventually get discontinued. I don't like the idea of hard reboots.
I really hope they don't get rid of random charges never heard that rumor before.
If they're going to do it, pre-measuring has got to go. I'd keep random charges, but they want to double up, it's time to make us put down our tape measures.
(That rumour I've been told about a couple of times by 'in the know' people but I wouln't take it that seriously yet)
@@DrBlaxill How does that even work? Me and my friends got precious few WHFB games in b4 the end times. But like you measure something (say confirm a range for a unit to be able to shoot) how are you NOT supposed to notice how other units measure in relation as you lay the measuring tape out? 😅 Mby we will house rule it. Anyways good content man 👍
Yep, random charge ranges are quite a good innovation. Speed up movement phases because you aren't constantly trying to put your unit 8.1 inches from this and 7.9 inches from that.
I think I'd prefer a D3 random roll rather than 2D6 though.
@@benneem D3 in general should be more utilized- for example I think all cannons should 'scatter' from the initial hit point D3" to prevent sniping individuals. I say this as a Dwarf player 😅
@@Tartersauce101 they attempt to do something like that in the Warhammer Armies Project rules, but I'm not quite happy with the specific implementation there.
The WAP cannon rules have the strange effect where a unit that is 12" away causes the angle of the cannon shot to deviate 4 times more than when shooting at a unit 48" away!
Not to sound too mean but we Bretonnians have had to wait since 6th ed for any sort of refresh/update, I'm sure pdf armies can wait a year or two for new goodies (not like vampire counts and lizardmen just had a huge model refresh or anything)
Great video
I think your pessism is correct.
We shouldn't forget, that they promised cathay as a faction and heavily hinted at kislev, so every one expected more factions than in 8tg Edition. Now we get even less
I think we'll hear something more on the 'new' armies point. Again, if there were going to be new armies maybe, they could have said that and did not. A lot of my pessimism though could be explained by a poorly worded article...that's what I'm hoping for.
I like the idea of less of a focus on Chaos. Makes the other factions more prominent.
The announcement personally didn't bother me at all, with all the fuss I assumed the PDF factions were being completely ignored. But obviously with free PDF rules we can still play them which is all I really want... Obviously with model support. As a non-competitive beer and pretzels gamer I'd actually prefer to have a PDF faction, you save money on the book and in a funny sort of way I like being the underdog if GW does their normal power creep sort of thing to sell their codexes.
I think at the beginning when it's pdf rules for all the game even be at its best- before the power creep begins. That would be most analogous to ravening hordes in 6th ed.
@@DrBlaxill I didn’t play 6th edition, but I think I know what you mean from the indexes from the start of eighth edition 40k. It was simpler, balanced to some degree, and tricked me into thinking 40k was going to be a great game. Quite honestly we should of ignored the codexes that ruined the game with pay to win rules and stuck with the index books. Maybe a lesson for the old world?
Well I don't think it's fair to say Lizard man aren't going to get any new units, they've just got a heap of wonderful new units, a new slann, new Kroxigor, new Salamanders, new Saurus Warrors (which unfortunately don't rank up even on bigger bases :/) and beautiful new Chameleon Skinks. We even a underworld's lizard man squad team thing with fantastic proxies for a lot of the classic lizard lords like a really cool Oxyotl standing up on his stick with his blowpipe and a easily convertible Gor-Rok with a weapon swap.
True- there's an uneven port across with the AOS models which might be adaptable- and some of them could easily be from the old world if the AOS design isn't too 'out there'. I suppose I mean- dedicated OW models.
@@DrBlaxill Yeah, the new lizardmen releases have been quite fortunate that none of them are flying on dolphins or wearing cow heads. And I think it’s a great value army for new players if they can jump on the start collecting boxes that are still floating around.
I want to start playing this when it comes out. It seems like GW is all over the place. It seems like they don't have a cohesive vision as a company. I don't want to spend a thousand dollars on a game if it ends up getting discontinued. That's the only worry I have
Dogs of War is still my favorite faction!
I think they will bring all armies back in time as a time line.
Just a note high elves in blood bowl are a legacy team with no new models and one of the best teams in the 2020 rules
Yeah, with GW PDF releases sometimes the inverse in true. The Horus Heresy legacy PDF's have some of the most utterly broken units in the game.
When we had that 1st article 3 years ago I was rather happy but with each new bit of info/news article I'm seeming losing interest and becoming rather jaded and cynical toward it. Though I guess it doesn't help matters that I have got big into WAP 9th since then and have a nice local playerbase and an extended London group which makes me think I really don't need to jump over to TOW for my WhFB fix.
You and me both, to be honest. WAP and T9A are also little communities that some gamers have found happiness in- which one imagines will see players leave them when TOW comes out.
Worf the wait!
Dont know which of the GW-People make 6th and 7th Edition but I think 6e and 7e was the best!
well Lizardmen just had some killer new models released
The most important question here is where did you get your jacket ?
You forgot Tilean... sorry Mercenaries
Pessimism toward Games Workshop is always the safe position to take. We already know they will screw this up, we are just waiting to see how.....
I found the vc not being supported odd, I would of thought having vlad trying to be emperor would of been around that time. Given how popular daemons are, it’s just so odd.
It's set just decades before the siege of Praag.. Vlad and his kin are absolutely, most definitely not around at this point. He "died" around 2050 (Siege of Altdorf, the event you seem to be referring to) and wasn't resurrected until the End Times 500 years later. From the latest article, we know it's set after the Vampire Wars, so the rest of them are also "dead", Mannfred coming back in 2505 and Isabella during the End Times. Konrad died during the second Vampire Wars and never returned.
There's basically a gap between 2145IC and 2505IC where all the Von Carsteins aren't around.
Praag happens around 2300 and ToC seems to be set within 100 years of that. So definitely no Vampire Counts about.
@@rubeniscool I find it odd setting at that time when it’s going to exclude an entire race. As others have pointed out, they aren’t the online bloodline either
Plus side is we are probably going to see some old chaos characters from champions of chaos. Arbaal, Valnir, possible count modrek the damned seem likely characters. Harry the hammer could be another (given he’s now in warhammer 3).
@@markbedwell3100 which is why they're still included via legacy pdfs. True they weren't the only bloodline, but they were the most influential and the strongest, with other families taking their cue from them.
After the Vampire Wars, the vampire population where pretty much obliterated and the rest went into hiding. There was a 400 year period where you just didn't get any conflicts related to Vampires.
Not until 2505, or 3 years after Karl Franz became emperor that you had any real Vampiric influence returning. And then it was only Mannfred.
We only had minis for the other vampires because the WHFB timeline was pretty wide and we were given the ability to play in pretty much any era. Same reason we had a mini for Marius Leitdorf who was already dead by 2522-5, the official time one of WHFB.
The only other notable Vampire btw was Merovech of Mousillon but that doesn't help us either because he died before Vlad and he too didn't return until Louen Leonceour was King of Bretonnia, well after the great war against Chaos.
@@rubeniscool that isn’t why they are legacy, they are legacy because people had the armies, much like they did chaos dwarfs.
It’s amazing your only focusing on the negative part of my post in your response. Any who, have a lovely day.
"For old times sake" ... well, the whole thing is called Warhammer: The OLD World. They are going all in on old stuff and nostalgia, they should embrace it rather than look down on it.
Exactly. It's a nostalgia product in large part- and nothing wrong with that. Old times are part of the point!
Yeah really hope they kill off Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre kingdoms. Find it annoying that they have goblins/orcs. They should only have their own race then they could be allowed in the game. Other wargames like Warmachine have no random charges and allowed to measure before. It works great. Never got annoyed by it.
Magic will most likely focus a lot on movement that increases charges then.
2025 release at best I believe.