Corvus Belli has the entire Infinity rule book as a free PDF download. You can also buy a paperback. Which I did because I prefer looking through a book instead of scrolling through my phone.
One of the biggest things that really drew me into AoS over 40k was both the models, and more importantly the ease of access in terms of warscrolls and rules; While piracy or 3rd party software like battlescribe was always an option, what piqued my interest was just how easy it was to read about different armies and think about what I could get into next
Having read through 3rd edition 40k and 6th edition whfb recently I noticed how GW actually encouraged people do build their own terrain, Kitbash units etc. Having a good time is what it’s all about
Aidan Quiett yeah but only if to buy twice to kitbash because the amount of spare parts as leftovers from newer boxes like necromunda gangs is almost zero. Comparing it to other manufacturers that give you things like 10 spare heads and weapons i get the impression that this is on purpose
@@jenslorbeer5307 The multipart eradicator kit has like 8 heads for just 3 guys, and necromunda is forge world isnt it? Trying to compare the 2 brands just doesnt work
They just hit my radar because of the models. Really love their overall look and styling. Plus, werewolves in a scifi setting? Hell yes. I'm more into the painting than playing, but having watched a game or two on UA-cam, it looks pretty neat. I'm going to need more terrain, though. Even when I have enough, it won't be enough.
@@jjpeloquin I'm 95% painting 5% playing as well, so I get what you mean. Infinity has one of the best rule sets I've seen though. The company sells inexpensive terrain kits to go with the many scenes in the game. Something like $30 for a terrain kit that will fill a 3x3 table
Infinity the game is my game of choice. It’s wargaming on hard mode in many ways, painting and models are high quality making you want to push your limits. There so many tactics and options that is overwhelming if you’re new but CodeOne simplifies much of that to give you a taste of it.
@@markjohnsvideos On the other hand you don't need to buy dozens and dozens of models to get a running army, even if the minis are individually more expensive, the entry price is much lower than 40k, and if you're into collecting, well, personally I got the entirety of the miniatures of a sectorial (a subfaction) for around 500€ and I'll hardly ever need to buy anything for that faction ever again.
I've been playing 40k for 20 years and I deeply regret having to buy all those manuals, given that I would have preferred to buy more minis, rather than books that after some years are useless. I still buy the SM Codex, because I like their lore, but as for the rulebook, CA, etc, I now avoid them (I have the 9th edition rulebook just because I've found it in the Indomitus Box, the cost of which I further reduced by selling the Necron part). On the other hand, for Infinity, which I've been playing since 2015, I've bought all the manuals. Not only because I like their lore more than 40k's one, but also because their rules are for free and this makes me want to support them more. I know it may sound strange, but the fact that their are willing to give away their rules and updates for free (their army builder is official and totally free and works very well) makes me look at them with a more favorable eye and so I buy their rules even if I could avoid it.
You're exactly right! In 2017, I was disgusted at having to buy the $65 8th edition rule book, only to see that (once again) more than half the book was fluff and background garbage that I didn't need. On top of that, I was thoroughly disgusted with the game. I went back to 2nd Edition last year, and am loving it.
@@cavemanbum I never left 2nd edition 40k! 3rd, 4th, 5th ed were such dumpster fires IMO i gave up on any new rules release. dont have to worry about codex creep either :D
I made a similar comment about Infinity. A great game with great minis from a great company who gives everything away for free except the minis. I was amazed that they didn't get a nod in this video.
@@TraitorLegions top quality game rules with top quality minis from a top quality company! I also really like their expanded universe game "Aristeia". Sort of like their bloodbowl. Free rules for that too!
This is part of the reason I found games like Gaslands or A Billion Sons so appealing. It was a great gateway for my kitbashing love to marry to some neat games. No model line but what you make. Sometimes that feels like it’s own freedom.
That's what sold me on Gaslands. I get genuinely excited thinking of possible builds when I spot a display bin full of random hotwheels. A nice addition is I don't get stressed about 'ruining' an expensive model with a poor paintjob anymore, it's just a cheap toy car.
I'm so glad I found this channel a few years ago. I have also moved into skirmish games and indie systems. It's way more fun for me to build a few small crews, to kitbash, and to experiment. I have 3 full AOS armies, and a full 40k army that rarely get used. I was super frustrated for a long time, wishing I could have a more narrative experience with Warhammer. I tried skirmish, I tried killteam, but everything was too min/max and all of my friends and opponents just wanted to *win*, not have a fun experience. Taking those same players and playing a game of Frostgrave, where the emphasis is no longer on winning, but on the safety of your warband and the loot you can find, has totally changed the way we play. Frankly, I think it's a healthier gaming environment for me.
My first steps out of GW games and into Frostgrave was like “wait, I can use anything?” Taking models from different companies and ranges and making a unique warband is so much fun, I don’t think I could ever go back to 40K. Plus, everything is SO much cheaper. A box of infantry is ~$25 instead of $50+.
That's why I want to get into Frostgrave and Stargrave, just take what you like! Mix some Necromunda minis with old I-Kore ones, give them a leader from Infinity. Take models you like!
I guess it always comes down to this core question: "how much do we need to entice people to pay for our products?" As the behemoth, GW know that 40k rules and models both sell. People will pay for both. No added sweetener is required. After the falling sales of WFB, giving away AoS rules to attract people was a simple way for GW to entice people to buy the new range of models. Smaller companies need to compete with GW. The only way that you can even get folks to look at your products, let alone buy them, is to entice customers through free rule sets. If every company could guarantee sales without free rules, they would!
I think GW, as well as being the 800lb gorilla, has the advantage of an enormous IP with a shed-load of fluff that is as much of a draw as the gameplay and miniatures. Most Warhammer fans don't just want the rules and stats - they want the stories (loads of stories!), the artwork, the whole caboodle, and GW provide and sell that both in their rulebooks and Codexes/Battletomes.
I came here to say exactly this. You've got an industry frontrunner in 40k, and everything else (incl. Sigmar) has to compete with it. Free rules is one way to get people interested. Some more modern miniature games, like X-Wing or Dust 1947, give you rules in the model kit and the assumption is that a new edition is far away so those rules will last a long time. X-Wing 2e has even modernized that further by having the model points only in the app, so as to not necessitate new rules to balance them. These kinds of things are VERY appealing to me as a consumer, so I'm more interested in these games than 40k where I have to buy two new rulebooks every 3 years.
Having to buy the rules over and over is what wound up driving me away from 40k and GW in general. Their strategy is to appeal to the sunk cost fallacy - people figure "I've already bought a lot of the models, I suppose I'll have to buy the books if I want to keep using them". It's up to each individual to decide what threshold of churn they'll tolerate, or how much they're willing to spend on new models to keep their army if not competitive, at least fairly equal on the table. Some of us just decide not to keep throwing good money after bad and get off the ride. But if GW gave away the rules and the stats for the units, and all you had to buy were the models? Of course I'd have kept playing, at the very least using what I already have. Sure, they're a business and they are in it to make money, but if someone stops playing completely and isn't spending any money on the game at all any more, how does that help GW's bottom line?
One of the primary reasons I haven't gotten into 40K is because of GWs insane practice of spreading out rules across multiple books, magazines, pdfs, etc. As someone outside of the hobby, it's a nightmare just trying to figure out how to get started, so I just didn't. I play Warhammer Underworlds and plan to eventually play some Warcry, but for now it's just too much of a hurdle for me to justify.
Free rules can engender a lot of good will too. One of the reasons I have Stargrave and it’s expansion pre ordered is that Osprey and Joe Muculloh gave away first edition Frost grave and a solo expansion free at the start of the pandemic. That was just cool as hell in my book and it led me to try a system that I now like quite a bit. Not only was I excited for a sci Fi version of the rules, but it’s one of the few times I legitimately felt a company deserved my money for being a good company.
As a long time WHFB player, I can say that back in the day, army books releases for each army were seldom (at best) and model releases were not rapid fire mode as they're now. The whole game didn't feel like a money sink-hole as it is now and you could play without buying a new book for years. Now you have yearly releases of General handbook, chapter approved, codes, battletomes, rulebooks, some-weird-name addendum. Players are buying paper to field units and you see people at tournaments with piles of books (SM players? Anybody?) I believe that if you want to do that and you're ok with the continuous obsolescence cycle, than knock yourself out. It's not for me: I just buy a snapshot of the game (and supplements) at the time I play and will play in that time capsule for as long as my gaming group allows. I have 3rd Ed and 5th edition WHFB, 1st edition AoS and 8th edition 40k. It's roughly 3 books each and that's it. On the contrary, free rulesets generally allow me to use all the models I want or in some cases to buy limited number from the manufacturer. Meanwhile, I will get updated rules whenever they are released and I can concentrate on the game strategy more that game combos. I like to play with plastic soldiers, not mixing units until I find the most efficient combo. TL:DR GW games are getting closer to Magic the Gathering than wargaming 😂
I think this resonates with a lot of players. The old days of buying into a game system, and building up a force over years, has been replaced with the constant curn and fear of minis being out of date before you've even got them.
@@TimewornMatt yeah.. and if you think how slowly I paint, my minis are always obsolete. It's a race I cannot win so I just sit by the track and grab something here and there. I bought into necromunda dark uprising: looks like a more static game 👍
I like One Page Rules. They (well, _he,_ really) have sets of fantasy and sci-fi rules _started_ life as a stripped down way to play 40K and Warhammer. They're free to download, and the core rules for each literally take up one side of a sheet of A4 (the expanded rules are an additional page). It's become a lot more since then, with quite a few additional rulesets. They do now have their own models (2D and 3D) that you can buy to print, and there's extra stuff (like points calculators) that you can access by joining the Patreon. But every bit of that is optional; the rules have _always_ been free, and you can use whatever models you like.
And as a bonus, it really caters to those who would otherwise be snared by the Sunk Cost Fallacy. When they see "Hey, there are other rules that I can play using the GW models I already bought", they are more than willing to drop a few bucks on a ruleset. I know I did.
You can look into business concepts such as "loss leader" or "vendor lock-in"... (and more generally "the first one is free") ...but at the end of the day companies are giving rules away for free because they feel they can't reach enough audience if they charge for them. That's the ugly truth. It's not the size of the company, it's the popularity of the specific game. AoS and 40K illustrate this perfectly: WFB was dying when they made the switch and they wanted to get as many people aboard as possible. With 40K there is no such need, its popularity guarantees whatever they put out will be bought in sufficient numbers.
That's what keeps me from having other armies, needing yet another Codex that becomes obsolete in a couple of years . I would gladly pay for the new rule book, but the data sheets should be included with the purchase of the models.
One of the major reasons why Infinity is my main game is because all the rules are available online. There's a wiki made by the players, which was lauded by Corvus Belli, and there's also a free army maker. I got four armies in Infinity, and I always knew beforehand what units I needed to buy for my armies. Likewise, I recently dipped my feet in Malifaux, who also have everything available online, so I knew exactly what I needed to buy. I also happen to play Team Yankee, and that was much more painful to get into, since I had to buy the rulebook to figure out how army compositions work, and also what units I needed for my army. I manage to eh... circumvent this, shall we say, so I could figure out what models I needed, but it shouldn't have to be that way, in my opinion. I used to play 40K back in 5E, but when they went to 6E and then less than a year after went to 7E, which completely trashed my army concept, and would've forced me to buy more models to re-make my army, I washed my hands clean of GW and I've never looked back. I love the models and the brands of the company, but the way they handle things on the business end... urgh.
I'm really glad to see so many Infinity comments on this video. The game is so good and the company's business model so refreshing. And of course, the stunning miniatures!
With GW, I think - and this is just me guessing - what dictates their decisions most, when it comes to pricing, is "what we can get away with". They charge a premium for their products - above and beyond what other companies charge for similar products - because they know that people will pay. They've got their virtual monopoly, so they don't need to be competitive. They've conditioned their loyal customers to accept the prices as "normal", and to do as much as possible to prevent people from knowing that it doesn't _have_ to be this way. It's also why their box sets - Indomitous notwithstanding - seem to charge more for less content. They're pushing things further, trying to gouge a little more profit from the customers. Seeing just how much farther they can go before even their base decides to rebel. (Which is why people need to be more vocal about this kind of thing; if customers don't make their displeasure known, it will just become the new normal). Age of Sigmar was in a different place, starting out, than 40K was. 40K has always been GW's golden child, the property that always made them money. They didn't need to even restrain themselves when it comes to monetization. Warhammer Fantasy, by contrast, was doing very poorly. It wasn't profitable (at least by GW's standards). And they were getting ready to destroy the original game and start it over from scratch. That was never going to be met without resistance. There was always going to be wailing and gnashing of teeth. If they approached Age of Sigmar the way they do 40K - which is to say, in a predatory manner - there was the possibility that the potential customers would simply not buy it. That if they showed up with a brand new game (the one that replaced the one they loved, mind) and demanded they also fork over tons of money for rulebooks and warscrolls and the like, the irate fans might simply say "no". There was a real possibility that Age of Sigmar would fail outright, and kill their control of the fantasy wargaming market entirely. That they would _never_ be able to recover, or spend the next few decades struggling to catch up to other fantasy wargames that would arise to fill the void. Age of Sigmar's base rules being free probably had a lot to do with not poking the bear that was their customers any more than they already were. They tried to smooth things over, by lowering the barrier to entry. (It wasn't totally successful - the fans were _pissed_ - but they tried.)
Yup, the whole Kill Team Pariah Nexus made my Space Marines, my Necrons and my brother's Deathwatch lists go beyond the usual 100 pts we used to play. I was painting a 100pt tau list but now I have to buy extra models because I don't have enough to reach the 125 pt mark, and that's such a big bummer that I am switching to Grimdark Future Firefight. So yeah, the issue here is not having to buy the points updates, but rather the updates making my lists unplayable against each other.
@@pedrobastos8132 I think it's not even that (though it's a factor). It's just that people don't like having their earlier purchase invalidated. They already bought the core rule book. Why do they need to buy it again? Let alone _every single year._
I’ve been basically waiting to get the ultramarines codex as long as I can cause you gotta get two for em, Ths codex then whichever supplement. Fortunately most of the stats are on BattleScribe
I started on Rangers of SD in PDF and eventually bought the Deluxe book to support those efforts. Printing my own minis. Only so many hobby dollars to go around.
I'm currently looking at RoSD as a good game to start my son out with. I was surprised that there wasn't a standard book available, just the Deluxe one and the Kindle edition. Is that due to covid hitting printing, do you know, or a business model?
It's getting to a breaking point with GW, asking $60 for 6 pages of supplemental rules to my 6 to 8 week old codex, or worse new codex, is a kick in the pants.
for me on my limited budget it comes down to i either: - buy the rule books and expansion books or - i buy the models i legit can't buy both due to their costs
This. A lot of people with slightly more disposable money don't even understand this and try to say if you have the money for one you have the money for both.
You might like Battletech to me one of the lowest investment games around. The 'A Game of Armored Combat' box set (usually can be found for 50$) comes with 8 models, maps, punchout terrain, and the intermediate rule set (along with lots of other goodies). Being a skirmish sized game very rarely will you use more than 4 Mechs per side. After that all you need to do is buy additional Mechs as you see fit or if you have a 3d printer there are bunches of Mechs you can simply print. Also every gaming group I have ever seen has no issue with proxying because battletech is not really a WYSIWG game as there are way too many variants of each Mech to make that feasible.
That’s why I play Kill Team and Warcry. I have painted armies for Space Marines (Black Templar), Tyranids, Imperial Guard, Deathwatch, Death Guard, Chaos (Black Legion), AdMech, Necrons, Nighthaunts, Skaven, Stormcast Eternals, and Nurgle - but since they’re for skirmish games, none of those armies are more than 15 models. It gives you tons of choices. Thanks for watching!
so Kill team and Warcrafy, extra specialist and game variant rules that you also have pay, if you have the codexes and the 40k rulebook. oh yeah and we can even pay for patches (chapter aproved) and beta test (indexes) Apocalypse datasheets are also free, and the game plays like netpic (which is good!)
Once this channel introduced me to Gaslands (which is awesome) and now you peak my interest again, sneakily on the side in a video about different business approaches.
Back around 2nd thru 5th ed 40k I would get all the Codexes (Codices?) The price shift when GW switched to hardback format pressed me into focusing in the factions I own armies for. Now I buy a codex when I think I will play that faction before the next edition rolls out.
Where I draw the line is when they sell you the rules, sell you the models, and then sell you the rules for the models. Like when they come out with new models or tweak data sheets after book was published.
I'm actually 100% evidence to your line of thinking! Haven't bought a codex for 40k in maybe a decade. I always hated and still do, the fact you need so many books and chapter approved and this and that before you can even play. In fact, I haven't played since 5th ed. Now, when I discovered as you said all Warscrolls and rules for AOS were on the GW website, I immediately bought and am finishing my 2k points of Deathrattle Skellingtons in Feb. I even bought the Battletome later, as it contains more than just the taste the site gives you. I just can't justify buying so many books that will be useless a year or two later, that cost nearly as much as my models... Unless I play like, Tyranids or Orks, which let's be fair, actually DO NEED BOOKS and never get them.
I think a huge 3rd option that I love is Flames of War: more of an al' a carte option. You need the core rulebook (which is really cheap). You then have 1 of 4 options for your army stats: You can buy your army book, each nation/theater has its own book, so I play D-Day Americans (theres like a global campaign meta releasing in a semi-historical order, but my d-day paras could technically play against the Afrikacorps), that has everything you need. You can exclusively buy their models, each box comes with a corresponding stat card, (but you do run into issues with boxes from previous editions and this isn't future proof). You can buy a deck of cards that corresponds to your nation/theater, these deck has all of the stats needed to listbuild and for each unit. My favorite option, you can pay like a dollar on their website to unlock your specific "company" (like a US Para company, or a Sherman Tank Company, or an Armored rifle platoon), and their listbuilder will have all of the stats for that company (which include support like tanks, planes, etc). I use a combination of all 4, I love the cards as luxury item and I use a lot of non-battlefront minis to play with. The books are always full of wonderfull fluff and art work, and the online list builder is a good way to build a few opposing forces for when you run demo games. It's also a really good program, I've purchase a few different companies so that I can throw together a couple of different lists for different play styles, but you dont have to pay for anything you don't intend to ever use.
I worked out it would cost over £100 for the books alone if I wanted to get back into 9th (not including next year's chapter approved or proper chaos codex when that comes out). I have now switched to Grimdark Future and am probably close to that in terms of patreon payments but I feel like that money is "worth it" more.
Nothing in a Games Workshop shop is priced reasonably. But anyway... their business model is very successful. They sell to you directly with 40% more margin, they sell to 3rd parties in bulk with less 40% margin, those shops normally sell at a 20% discount over RRP, the truth is that GW makes money from all fronts. It’s a smart strategy, an no there’s no real benefit of being a loyal customer of a GW shop, you can buy the miniatures somewhere else and still come to the shop to play on their tabletop or paint miniatures with help
There are only two miniature wargames I would consider playing right now. BattleTech, and One Page Rules. BT isn't free, but I already have PDF's for it that used to be available at a time when it was free. One Page Rules is free, and even more they have very, very cheap paper standup "minis" you can print out using a printer.
@RagDollRat indeed, and let's say you just want the bare minimum. You need that codex and someone of your group that's gonna play, or yourself, needs the core book. Being generous, that's still over $100 before you get into the actual hobby portion. Huge hump for new people to get over to get into the hobby.
@@Bluecho4 It really makes no sense to get mad at games companies. It's very straightforward. They get to run their businesses any way they please, and you get to choose to support them or not. If you don't like them, play something else. The only thing toxic about all this is the attitude that entitled gamers have about it.
@@dannypockets I disagree. Consumers have rights too. They are entitled to complain about a company's predatory business model, and push back against it. Especially when a company has a borderline monopoly, and wields outsized power in the market and the relationship between seller and buyer. Voting with one's wallet doesn't cut it. Customers need to make it known when what a company is doing is unfair or scummy. You don't rectify a bad situation by just shrugging your shoulders and saying "lol, just don't buy it". That is a dismissive attitude towards genuine problems and legitimate complaints. And I'm tired of corporate apologists using such statements to shut down dissent.
I could get on board more with the Warhammer rules if it was an all in one book that lasted 1-2 years. Having multiple books coming out a year is too much, even if they are optional
I'm done with 40K, I love the game and my God I love the miniatures but I'm done with the way they do business. So, I 3D print models from my minifactory and use the One page rule set. DONE! LOVE ur videos THANKS!!!
I fell out of the hobby of wargaming due 10 years ago due to the community in my area really only played old historical games that were impossible to find the books for or Warhammer. I played Imperial Guard and at the time GW started making it more expensive to run that army. Plus it was always a pain to keep track of other faction armies due to you really had to buy the book or borrow the book for the newest faction update. I discovered One page games' Grimdark Future game system, which the pdfs are free and you can use any minis you like. Plus it's a lot easier to set up, keep track of factions, and doesn't have the constant arms race the GW rules have. And this inspired me to do mini conversions with bits to make a army of Valhallan ice warriors with a bunch of WW2 minis that are half the price of GW's.
Just a quick note about companies that offer free rules: most of the bigger companies doing this, like Privateer Press and Corvus Belli, will give you the rules for free, but keep all the fluff and lore in the physical books. Warcradle Studios, however, gives you the rulebook AND the lore absolutely free for ALL of their games. They also even have every unit card available for free, as well as free options to download almost any accessory you’d need to get started. You can download both the Action and Adventure card decks to print off by yourself if you wanted; the only thing you would need to supply yourself is some d10s (or a dice rolling app) and some models (or some appropriate proxies) to try everything out before spending a dime on anything related to the game.
I’ve always seen games workshop as a subscription service, you could if you wanted have your same army from twenty years back and it more or less still works. Gw keeps its cash flow up by selling books. If I want to play the current rule set then I sub in with the latest book.
i've had this argument last week, i've got into 40k last year and i still cannot understand the idea that you need to buy so many books to play the game. and not only that, when a new etidion, rules or codex for you army arrives the books that you already have are worth nothing or is at least missing some rules, death guard for example their codex is not even one year old and there are rules for the army outside of the codex. both rule and codexes should be online so they can be updated faster, should be free because people would spend more money on miniatures.
One of the things I like, if not love, with SAGA is that they sell a watertight Ruleset and special dices. They are 100% decoupled from the Minis. They do not produce any. Every time they release a new ÄRA (more or less a an Expansion) it is all about adding gaming value and mechanics and not about serving the Power Creep to promote Modell releases. There Business Model rely on giving you good rules and someone else relies on giving you the best fitting Models. This is so perfect for me as player
I want to get into 40k and the dance of book rules and codexes is pushing me back. I even heard that a Kill team 2.0 is coming so now I'm not even sure about getting the rule book for kill team!
There are also companies like Kallistra, who give free rules and much of their games are miniature ambiguous (Hordes and Heroes Fantasy). However, their miniatures are awesome and terrain is modular so you can create different battlefield every game
If I didn't feel like I had to pay a subscription to 40k or risk having the rug pulled from under me in terms of new rulebooks coming out I'd probably still be playing it.
Corvus Belli's Infinity has free rules and the app is so good that they don't even print unit rules. It prints your list comples with all weapons in the army, as well as a "courtesy list" for your opponent that removes the hidden information like lieutenant and special deployments.
It's the reason why I moved on to historicals because besides having to buy both rules and models....I can be safe that the rules won't change because it's a one time purchase compared to 40k where I have to play catch up with it with my own money.
I think if you take all that time/energy you spend (not you specifically, but us fans in general) hem-hawing about how terrible GW's pricing is, and place it into researching other companies that give you more bang for your buck, you'll be happier person in general. After deep-diving Privateer Press's "Warcaster" the last few weeks, i've found quite a nice alternative to 40k, that plays even better than 9th edition.
i belive it was WHFB 8th ed since the fan made version is called 9th age when GW did endtimes and went AoS instead of continuing a system that didnt sell enough
I've been playing miniatures wargames since the late '70s. FWIW, I don't play games that require me to use specific model lines, though I will sometimes buy miniatures from companies who have made models specifically for the games I play. But that latter purchase is purely esthetic; I buy them because I like the sculpts. Note that historical miniatures have nearly always had separate companies making models and rules. If you're playing DBM, or Command Decision, or Napoleon's Battles, or Age of Reason, you get to pick not only the company you buy the figures from, but what scale miniatures you're going to use. (I'd recommend talking to your friends before the latter unless you're planning to build both sides _and_ the terrain, though.) The same has pretty much always been true of fantasy and SF miniatures games as well: Fantasy Rules, Full Thrust, Dirtside, Hordes of the Things, .... But what GW has been able to do by going completely vertical is capture the entire revenue stream from a captive market. Miniatures games, like CCGs, depend a great deal on network effect to get games. DBM for a long time was essentially _the_ competition game for ancients and medievals, in part because it's a pretty good game (and was excellent and extremely innovative when new) that plays quickly, and in part because it was the game that had the most players. And by having the most players, it was the most attractive to new players as well. It was a self-perpetuating circle. The same is true of GW; their games have always been both good enough* and available in enough places that they have maintained a critical mass of players. * FWIW, I've never liked any descendant of Warhammer. I don't like the mechanisms, I don't like the world, and I don't like the game play. (I bought a copy of Warhammer at Origins '86 in LA and didn't much like it then. It didn't get better with time.) But the market penetration is an indication that "good enough" with a very strong network really is good enough.
Free Rules are great. I like to try before I buy. Its how I got into Deadzone and all those other Mantic games. I even built my own game board and purchased some D8's to play Deadzone. After playing the free rules, I brought a big box of their models.
Just got my Deadzone Starter in the mail last week. Have a few more Battletech minis to finish up and then I will be starting on Deadzone. Looks to be a fun skirmish game with a whole lot less investment than a GW game.
I am the perfect example of if 40k made their rules free, they would get more models sold. I first got interested in the game during the pandemic from a friend who had a couple models. But i'm broke. But i DO have a pc, and i had tabletop sim on steam. So instead of buying books and models, i joined a community that knew the rules or had the rules themselves, and played in tabletop sim with them, learning the game. Now, with 9th edition in full swing, i'm planning to buy my first models and paint set next week. I never would have even considered buying anything from them, had i not gotten a taste of the game for free with people that knew it, and played it in a virtual space first. The stuff is pricey. It's not something you just jump into randomly. Especially if you have extremely limited funds for entertainment like i do. I had to be very sure i enjoyed the game and the miniatures first. And after playing on table top and watching battle reports and painting videos and techniques for over a year now, i can confidently say, i really enjoy it, and i'm super excited to buy my first models with the recruit edition on GW.
I've started looking into other companies and their tabletop games because of this. Either getting the rulebook for free to even be able to approach their games or not having a fixed miniatures gives me the creative want to customize things, unlike GW which discourages using anything other then what they offer.
I stopped buying Warhammer (and 40k) with the start of Age of Sigmar. They needed to release the new rules free or no one of my gaming circle(and the others i have spoken with) would have made the step. The change in playstyle was big enough to warrant that as it has deterred many i talked with. I think that's more the point, why they did not sell those rules at the start. That said, i have tested a few other wargames now, and prefer to recommend those one can at least have a look into the rules ahead of the time (ie. CMON, FantasyFlight...) just to get a feeling wether or not the person would like the groundrules.
To be fair they put those in Start Collecting boxes etc.. and since the base rules are free, you can start playing without buying any extra rules. But all the basic datasheets should be free, rules like in the Indexes they did with 8th.
Outlands allows you to use any 5 models you want even though it has a sci fi spaghetti western feel. I've seen Cyberpunk, apocalyptic and even nuns with guns being used
Correct me if I'm wrong but Necromunda is the most expensive small skirmish game out there right now. How many books and cards do you need to play at minimum? I think it's ~$100 before you even get miniatures. Of course you probably need ALL the books because [Insert special table or rule here]
GW needed to get people to try AoS, due to it being such a jarring change from WFB - thus giving the initial rules away. They were not alienating their existing 40k base with the new 40k, so they didn't need to hook people with free rules. I'd not be surprised if GW tweaked the AoS core rules in a couple of years time to invalidate the old PDF and moved to the same model with that game as 40k, given the success of AoS. They now have the fantasy feeder games in place too, which helps them there.
Its not a wargame, but I have bought so many more pathfinder products then I have for any other rpg system including several editions of dnd, mostly because their business model involves making it easy to play. I recently started playing 40k again and if I am honest, I would not have if wahepdia and battlescribe didn't exist. GW got a whole lot of dollars in sales from me because I could try before I buy, I even have bought the codexes because I wanted to, but if I had to buy the codex before I even started figuring out if I wanted to play a given army, I never would have started.
I really wanna play WH40k but all the books you have to buy really puts me off because I'd have to get like books for 2 factions just to be able to play at home. My other option would be Legion or Kill Team, but Kill Team is dead at my FLGS and I am somewhat skeptical of getting another Star Wars minis game after how my X-Wing hobby ended with the release of 2e
I have 500ish points of guard. 500 points of marines. 100 ish points of tau and necrons. Mostly bought for fun to paint. Haven't played a single game yet because of the cost of rules. $100 for me just to get started with one faction? Probably won't even have all the rules and they'll be incomplete or outdated within 1-3 years. I didn't know age of sigmar had free rules. I just assumed it was like 40k. Probably will start a AOS army now.
I see the advantage also to not only the PDF rule sets but also the companies that have their rules on Kindle for sale. I personally am willing to drop a few dollars to buy an electronic version to see if I like the rules. I figure if nothing else I am paying for entertainment for the amount of time it takes me to read the rules.
I am trying 40k out as a hobby (the pariah nexus got me... lesson learned about doing research before buying) and thanks for these videos. Just wish I had made a smarter first purchase. Oh well the models look cool at least.
The only reason why I didn't join the hobby earlier is that it's always NOT a good time to buy into 40K rulebooks. this edition is probably going to get new version soon, or this codex is pretty old, or that OP model just hit the shelfs and is overdue for a nerf... the minis prices I don't mind that much, I can take it slow, but the fact that I don't play for 2 years and everything I own is now obsolete? screw that!
Thank you for broadening my awareness of other tabletop science fiction games. Stargrave ... we have to wait on for its release? Boo ... :) Overall, very good contrast on free vs pay models for gaming.
I'm thinking you might be paying for rulesets partly because there is lore incorporated into the books. The fluff can add to the feel of the specific game you are purchasing (in my opinion). Something from GW has a lot that goes into the fluff, where as something printed by osprey has less lore and usually less other fluffy stuff.
You could give away the rules for free and sell the books through the fluff. But that would make less money. I’m since the 3rd edition no longer interested in the fluff, cause overall, it’s always the same. And with the Primaris Marines they destroyed the fluff anyway.
@@bavarianbenkenobi7265 that makes sense since you've been in it so long. For me it's all kind of fresh since I've only been at it for almost two years, but I have already been bombarded with space marines, so I get that lol
Honestly, the lore in the Wrath of Kings book (from CMON five years ago) was one of my favorite pieces of fiction ever. I loved it, and it was included in the free download. Thanks for watching!
I wonder if it has to do with the age of the games. I have lots of 40K miniatures that are decades old so I don’t have to buy that many miniatures, but Sigmar is newer and so there is still a lot of model buying?
I have been a board gamer for a while and always intrigued by war games. After researching a bit I decided to buy Star Wars Legion over WH 40K because I don’t have an attachment to the lore but what baffled my mind was that I needed to buy a rule book. I think the HW models look great but I don’t like buying the parts and the manual separately.
Studies have shown that piracy increasing sales of merchandising etc. So not only would Games Workshop sell more models, if they went to a digital only rule set they could also have a much better game system, being to update and errata much quicker and easier than they do now.
The caveat with the AoS rules is the warscrolls dont give you the points cost or any of the army rules. So you really can't play without your battletome
I wish they actually stuck with the free rules thing like they promised. It would have made aos that much better than anything on the mainstream market.
Paying $115 for a codex and a rule book and still having nothing to play with is the reason I will not play 40k. Plus the fact I dont know which codex I should even buy because I dont know which army I want to play.
I can see how they decided the flagship IP gets kept at “max squeeze” levels of monetization. It’s a shame since the “eh, just keep it alive” logic worked well for fantasy- franchising to a Total War and the rules situation is great for the game. Wasn’t fantasy under threat from Kings of War (which also had free rules) when they made the Age of Sigmar call?
Age of Sigmar is still a harder sale. With 40k, they seemingly cannot make models fast enough so there's no need to entice people to buy more models. It seems like their strategy is geared towards selling the big boxes. I was really sold on the Indomitable box. There's a lot there but because of it, they can mass produce a line of figures and "force" people to build with those units instead of having to have supplies of a bunch of niche units if everyone just built piecemeal.
If games workshop would stop charging us for books and updates to their game...id play it. But the greed is just too obvious and insulting so i cant keep on buying new editions stuff...how hard is it to just get the game right and stop updating it jesus Christ... so hard to follow
It is like game consoles. The companies make so much money off of the games and "live" services that they could give the console away for free and still make a killing. Or printer companies give away their printers because ink is so expensive.
I gave up on GW with the new editions coming out all the time which totally changes the game and army lists all the time. Tried to keep up but with not that many games played per year it was too expensive for what I got. With the same money I can get a plastic army for other games.
9th edition 40k rules are free. You can also view all of the data sheets from previous codices in the 40K app but as new codices are released for 9th edition, each one of them comes with a digital code that you can use in the app to get the entire codecs electronically for free.
@corrinavatan We'll have to disagree on the intention here. I just felt it was relevant to point out that between 8th edition, as Atom discussed in the video, and 9th edition, things changed. Sounds like you still aren't ok with the change, which is fine, but we all have our opinions on whether or not the change was enough and opinions are not something I care to debate about.
@@eldritchseer I really agree with you. Of course you can play the latest edition of 40K just with the free rules and then buy some of Gws models. Then you have both the core rules and the datasheets. Sure you can’t play a Matched play game but that isn’t the only way to play 40K.
I 100% agree with you I'm having to change my army list because I'm not paying 30 dollars to run 1 guy in my army when I've already spent 100 dollars on books
A hundred? Jesus I’ve been playing GW games since the late eighties. I could put a down payment on a new house if I had the money back all the GW books I have bought.
GW gave away rules for AoS to attract people because it wasn't an established game. They know people will pay for 40k rules because it's a decades established game. No surprise they didn't give the rules away for free, and even if they did, I don't think it would translate to higher sales for them.
That's why I like AoS from the beginning, the rules and warscrolls are free so I can start playing and if I want to go deeper with an army I can buy a battletome.
The most controversial model on the tabletop? The business model! XD
Loled
Only true for GW
This is so GW it hurts
Ba-Dum-Tsss
LOL! funny! they make great minis but jeez the prices and practices are so frustrating sometime
GW moments after giving anyone something for free: "I immediately regret this decision."
Corvus Belli has the entire Infinity rule book as a free PDF download. You can also buy a paperback. Which I did because I prefer looking through a book instead of scrolling through my phone.
The infinity line seems to be rules are free but you can pay for fluff. I like it.
I wish I could buy Codexes though.
One of the biggest things that really drew me into AoS over 40k was both the models, and more importantly the ease of access in terms of warscrolls and rules; While piracy or 3rd party software like battlescribe was always an option, what piqued my interest was just how easy it was to read about different armies and think about what I could get into next
Having read through 3rd edition 40k and 6th edition whfb recently I noticed how GW actually encouraged people do build their own terrain, Kitbash units etc. Having a good time is what it’s all about
7th 40k and 8th fantasy still kept pushing for that, and GW still likes to show off kitbashed fan made items in their media occasionally
Deodorant stick Land Speeder from 2nd Edition..and Orks used to not have models for their vehicles in 40k.
Aidan Quiett yeah but only if to buy twice to kitbash because the amount of spare parts as leftovers from newer boxes like necromunda gangs is almost zero. Comparing it to other manufacturers that give you things like 10 spare heads and weapons i get the impression that this is on purpose
@@jenslorbeer5307 The multipart eradicator kit has like 8 heads for just 3 guys, and necromunda is forge world isnt it? Trying to compare the 2 brands just doesnt work
40k Rogue Trader you built your own vehicle and rolled up their stats like rpg characters.
I was so sure that Corvus Belli's Infinity was going to get a mention. They give away everything except the minis!
They just hit my radar because of the models. Really love their overall look and styling. Plus, werewolves in a scifi setting? Hell yes. I'm more into the painting than playing, but having watched a game or two on UA-cam, it looks pretty neat.
I'm going to need more terrain, though. Even when I have enough, it won't be enough.
@@jjpeloquin I'm 95% painting 5% playing as well, so I get what you mean. Infinity has one of the best rule sets I've seen though. The company sells inexpensive terrain kits to go with the many scenes in the game. Something like $30 for a terrain kit that will fill a 3x3 table
Infinity the game is my game of choice. It’s wargaming on hard mode in many ways, painting and models are high quality making you want to push your limits. There so many tactics and options that is overwhelming if you’re new but CodeOne simplifies much of that to give you a taste of it.
and boy do they ever not give away the minis. those things are pricy
@@markjohnsvideos On the other hand you don't need to buy dozens and dozens of models to get a running army, even if the minis are individually more expensive, the entry price is much lower than 40k, and if you're into collecting, well, personally I got the entirety of the miniatures of a sectorial (a subfaction) for around 500€ and I'll hardly ever need to buy anything for that faction ever again.
I've been playing 40k for 20 years and I deeply regret having to buy all those manuals, given that I would have preferred to buy more minis, rather than books that after some years are useless. I still buy the SM Codex, because I like their lore, but as for the rulebook, CA, etc, I now avoid them (I have the 9th edition rulebook just because I've found it in the Indomitus Box, the cost of which I further reduced by selling the Necron part). On the other hand, for Infinity, which I've been playing since 2015, I've bought all the manuals. Not only because I like their lore more than 40k's one, but also because their rules are for free and this makes me want to support them more. I know it may sound strange, but the fact that their are willing to give away their rules and updates for free (their army builder is official and totally free and works very well) makes me look at them with a more favorable eye and so I buy their rules even if I could avoid it.
You're exactly right!
In 2017, I was disgusted at having to buy the $65 8th edition rule book, only to see that (once again) more than half the book was fluff and background garbage that I didn't need.
On top of that, I was thoroughly disgusted with the game.
I went back to 2nd Edition last year, and am loving it.
@@cavemanbum I never left 2nd edition 40k! 3rd, 4th, 5th ed were such dumpster fires IMO i gave up on any new rules release. dont have to worry about codex creep either :D
I made a similar comment about Infinity. A great game with great minis from a great company who gives everything away for free except the minis. I was amazed that they didn't get a nod in this video.
@@the_elder_medium Infinity is fantastic, and I LOVE that they are still making their minis in METAL \m/
@@TraitorLegions top quality game rules with top quality minis from a top quality company!
I also really like their expanded universe game "Aristeia". Sort of like their bloodbowl. Free rules for that too!
This is part of the reason I found games like Gaslands or A Billion Sons so appealing. It was a great gateway for my kitbashing love to marry to some neat games. No model line but what you make. Sometimes that feels like it’s own freedom.
That's what sold me on Gaslands. I get genuinely excited thinking of possible builds when I spot a display bin full of random hotwheels. A nice addition is I don't get stressed about 'ruining' an expensive model with a poor paintjob anymore, it's just a cheap toy car.
I'm so glad I found this channel a few years ago. I have also moved into skirmish games and indie systems. It's way more fun for me to build a few small crews, to kitbash, and to experiment. I have 3 full AOS armies, and a full 40k army that rarely get used.
I was super frustrated for a long time, wishing I could have a more narrative experience with Warhammer. I tried skirmish, I tried killteam, but everything was too min/max and all of my friends and opponents just wanted to *win*, not have a fun experience. Taking those same players and playing a game of Frostgrave, where the emphasis is no longer on winning, but on the safety of your warband and the loot you can find, has totally changed the way we play. Frankly, I think it's a healthier gaming environment for me.
My first steps out of GW games and into Frostgrave was like “wait, I can use anything?” Taking models from different companies and ranges and making a unique warband is so much fun, I don’t think I could ever go back to 40K. Plus, everything is SO much cheaper. A box of infantry is ~$25 instead of $50+.
Same with Grimdark Future and Age of Fantasy.
That's why I want to get into Frostgrave and Stargrave, just take what you like! Mix some Necromunda minis with old I-Kore ones, give them a leader from Infinity. Take models you like!
My nostalgia for free demos has me remembering Sergeant Johnson yelling at me "You just beat the Halo Demo; not bad soldier, not bad at all!"
I guess it always comes down to this core question: "how much do we need to entice people to pay for our products?"
As the behemoth, GW know that 40k rules and models both sell. People will pay for both. No added sweetener is required.
After the falling sales of WFB, giving away AoS rules to attract people was a simple way for GW to entice people to buy the new range of models.
Smaller companies need to compete with GW. The only way that you can even get folks to look at your products, let alone buy them, is to entice customers through free rule sets.
If every company could guarantee sales without free rules, they would!
I think GW, as well as being the 800lb gorilla, has the advantage of an enormous IP with a shed-load of fluff that is as much of a draw as the gameplay and miniatures. Most Warhammer fans don't just want the rules and stats - they want the stories (loads of stories!), the artwork, the whole caboodle, and GW provide and sell that both in their rulebooks and Codexes/Battletomes.
@@mouseketeery and additional campaign books etc
I came here to say exactly this. You've got an industry frontrunner in 40k, and everything else (incl. Sigmar) has to compete with it. Free rules is one way to get people interested.
Some more modern miniature games, like X-Wing or Dust 1947, give you rules in the model kit and the assumption is that a new edition is far away so those rules will last a long time. X-Wing 2e has even modernized that further by having the model points only in the app, so as to not necessitate new rules to balance them. These kinds of things are VERY appealing to me as a consumer, so I'm more interested in these games than 40k where I have to buy two new rulebooks every 3 years.
@@grahamcrackergaming630 Just came here to say this same thing. Playing a GW game is like being on a hamster wheel that sucks money.
Having to buy the rules over and over is what wound up driving me away from 40k and GW in general. Their strategy is to appeal to the sunk cost fallacy - people figure "I've already bought a lot of the models, I suppose I'll have to buy the books if I want to keep using them".
It's up to each individual to decide what threshold of churn they'll tolerate, or how much they're willing to spend on new models to keep their army if not competitive, at least fairly equal on the table.
Some of us just decide not to keep throwing good money after bad and get off the ride. But if GW gave away the rules and the stats for the units, and all you had to buy were the models? Of course I'd have kept playing, at the very least using what I already have. Sure, they're a business and they are in it to make money, but if someone stops playing completely and isn't spending any money on the game at all any more, how does that help GW's bottom line?
One of the primary reasons I haven't gotten into 40K is because of GWs insane practice of spreading out rules across multiple books, magazines, pdfs, etc. As someone outside of the hobby, it's a nightmare just trying to figure out how to get started, so I just didn't. I play Warhammer Underworlds and plan to eventually play some Warcry, but for now it's just too much of a hurdle for me to justify.
Try middle earth sbg, low model count and all of the armies are in 2 books, with several supplements with extra but by no means nessesary content.
Evade all Gw licenced games
Free rules can engender a lot of good will too. One of the reasons I have Stargrave and it’s expansion pre ordered is that Osprey and Joe Muculloh gave away first edition Frost grave and a solo expansion free at the start of the pandemic. That was just cool as hell in my book and it led me to try a system that I now like quite a bit. Not only was I excited for a sci Fi version of the rules, but it’s one of the few times I legitimately felt a company deserved my money for being a good company.
Have you looked at Frostgrave 2nd edition yet? It's a pretty good change. I'm excited for Stargrave too!
@@jeffreykershner440 I am Interested in it, but since I’m just playing it solo at the moment, first edition worked pretty good for me.
As a long time WHFB player, I can say that back in the day, army books releases for each army were seldom (at best) and model releases were not rapid fire mode as they're now. The whole game didn't feel like a money sink-hole as it is now and you could play without buying a new book for years. Now you have yearly releases of General handbook, chapter approved, codes, battletomes, rulebooks, some-weird-name addendum. Players are buying paper to field units and you see people at tournaments with piles of books (SM players? Anybody?) I believe that if you want to do that and you're ok with the continuous obsolescence cycle, than knock yourself out. It's not for me: I just buy a snapshot of the game (and supplements) at the time I play and will play in that time capsule for as long as my gaming group allows. I have 3rd Ed and 5th edition WHFB, 1st edition AoS and 8th edition 40k. It's roughly 3 books each and that's it.
On the contrary, free rulesets generally allow me to use all the models I want or in some cases to buy limited number from the manufacturer. Meanwhile, I will get updated rules whenever they are released and I can concentrate on the game strategy more that game combos. I like to play with plastic soldiers, not mixing units until I find the most efficient combo.
TL:DR GW games are getting closer to Magic the Gathering than wargaming 😂
I think this resonates with a lot of players. The old days of buying into a game system, and building up a force over years, has been replaced with the constant curn and fear of minis being out of date before you've even got them.
@@TimewornMatt yeah.. and if you think how slowly I paint, my minis are always obsolete. It's a race I cannot win so I just sit by the track and grab something here and there.
I bought into necromunda dark uprising: looks like a more static game 👍
I like One Page Rules. They (well, _he,_ really) have sets of fantasy and sci-fi rules _started_ life as a stripped down way to play 40K and Warhammer. They're free to download, and the core rules for each literally take up one side of a sheet of A4 (the expanded rules are an additional page). It's become a lot more since then, with quite a few additional rulesets.
They do now have their own models (2D and 3D) that you can buy to print, and there's extra stuff (like points calculators) that you can access by joining the Patreon. But every bit of that is optional; the rules have _always_ been free, and you can use whatever models you like.
And as a bonus, it really caters to those who would otherwise be snared by the Sunk Cost Fallacy. When they see "Hey, there are other rules that I can play using the GW models I already bought", they are more than willing to drop a few bucks on a ruleset. I know I did.
You can look into business concepts such as "loss leader" or "vendor lock-in"... (and more generally "the first one is free")
...but at the end of the day companies are giving rules away for free because they feel they can't reach enough audience if they charge for them. That's the ugly truth.
It's not the size of the company, it's the popularity of the specific game. AoS and 40K illustrate this perfectly: WFB was dying when they made the switch and they wanted to get as many people aboard as possible. With 40K there is no such need, its popularity guarantees whatever they put out will be bought in sufficient numbers.
That's what keeps me from having other armies, needing yet another Codex that becomes obsolete in a couple of years . I would gladly pay for the new rule book, but the data sheets should be included with the purchase of the models.
One of the major reasons why Infinity is my main game is because all the rules are available online. There's a wiki made by the players, which was lauded by Corvus Belli, and there's also a free army maker. I got four armies in Infinity, and I always knew beforehand what units I needed to buy for my armies. Likewise, I recently dipped my feet in Malifaux, who also have everything available online, so I knew exactly what I needed to buy.
I also happen to play Team Yankee, and that was much more painful to get into, since I had to buy the rulebook to figure out how army compositions work, and also what units I needed for my army. I manage to eh... circumvent this, shall we say, so I could figure out what models I needed, but it shouldn't have to be that way, in my opinion.
I used to play 40K back in 5E, but when they went to 6E and then less than a year after went to 7E, which completely trashed my army concept, and would've forced me to buy more models to re-make my army, I washed my hands clean of GW and I've never looked back. I love the models and the brands of the company, but the way they handle things on the business end... urgh.
I'm really glad to see so many Infinity comments on this video. The game is so good and the company's business model so refreshing. And of course, the stunning miniatures!
Just got a Bluetooth shower speaker, now I get to shower with my fake uncle....
Wow! 👻
Weird, I like it.
Fake uncle. Funkle.
@@Nosmo90 A term that also works for Hamlet's stepdad ;)
With GW, I think - and this is just me guessing - what dictates their decisions most, when it comes to pricing, is "what we can get away with". They charge a premium for their products - above and beyond what other companies charge for similar products - because they know that people will pay. They've got their virtual monopoly, so they don't need to be competitive. They've conditioned their loyal customers to accept the prices as "normal", and to do as much as possible to prevent people from knowing that it doesn't _have_ to be this way.
It's also why their box sets - Indomitous notwithstanding - seem to charge more for less content. They're pushing things further, trying to gouge a little more profit from the customers. Seeing just how much farther they can go before even their base decides to rebel. (Which is why people need to be more vocal about this kind of thing; if customers don't make their displeasure known, it will just become the new normal).
Age of Sigmar was in a different place, starting out, than 40K was. 40K has always been GW's golden child, the property that always made them money. They didn't need to even restrain themselves when it comes to monetization.
Warhammer Fantasy, by contrast, was doing very poorly. It wasn't profitable (at least by GW's standards). And they were getting ready to destroy the original game and start it over from scratch. That was never going to be met without resistance. There was always going to be wailing and gnashing of teeth. If they approached Age of Sigmar the way they do 40K - which is to say, in a predatory manner - there was the possibility that the potential customers would simply not buy it. That if they showed up with a brand new game (the one that replaced the one they loved, mind) and demanded they also fork over tons of money for rulebooks and warscrolls and the like, the irate fans might simply say "no".
There was a real possibility that Age of Sigmar would fail outright, and kill their control of the fantasy wargaming market entirely. That they would _never_ be able to recover, or spend the next few decades struggling to catch up to other fantasy wargames that would arise to fill the void.
Age of Sigmar's base rules being free probably had a lot to do with not poking the bear that was their customers any more than they already were. They tried to smooth things over, by lowering the barrier to entry. (It wasn't totally successful - the fans were _pissed_ - but they tried.)
I don't mind buying the rules but I hate to spend money on points updates.
Yup, the whole Kill Team Pariah Nexus made my Space Marines, my Necrons and my brother's Deathwatch lists go beyond the usual 100 pts we used to play.
I was painting a 100pt tau list but now I have to buy extra models because I don't have enough to reach the 125 pt mark, and that's such a big bummer that I am switching to Grimdark Future Firefight. So yeah, the issue here is not having to buy the points updates, but rather the updates making my lists unplayable against each other.
@@pedrobastos8132 I think it's not even that (though it's a factor). It's just that people don't like having their earlier purchase invalidated.
They already bought the core rule book. Why do they need to buy it again? Let alone _every single year._
I’ve been basically waiting to get the ultramarines codex as long as I can cause you gotta get two for em, Ths codex then whichever supplement. Fortunately most of the stats are on BattleScribe
I started on Rangers of SD in PDF and eventually bought the Deluxe book to support those efforts. Printing my own minis. Only so many hobby dollars to go around.
I'm currently looking at RoSD as a good game to start my son out with. I was surprised that there wasn't a standard book available, just the Deluxe one and the Kindle edition. Is that due to covid hitting printing, do you know, or a business model?
It's getting to a breaking point with GW, asking $60 for 6 pages of supplemental rules to my 6 to 8 week old codex, or worse new codex, is a kick in the pants.
Yeah I play drukhari and I actually may be done with the game after this stunt
@@ac833 DG here, but yeah. If they're going to make us pay at least throw them in the odd White Dwarf, not an expensive bulky book.
@@Rastamahatma agree. My main wychcult is getting special rules in charadon... the same day the freaking codex comes out
Congratulations, you have seen the light and have a great time ahead of you playing non GW games :)
@@zeno6111753 sadly I love all of my chaos space marines, close to 8k painted.
for me on my limited budget it comes down to i either:
- buy the rule books and expansion books
or
- i buy the models
i legit can't buy both due to their costs
This. A lot of people with slightly more disposable money don't even understand this and try to say if you have the money for one you have the money for both.
And there are also supplements, campaign expansions etc. In the long run it is too much.
Same.
You might like Battletech to me one of the lowest investment games around. The 'A Game of Armored Combat' box set (usually can be found for 50$) comes with 8 models, maps, punchout terrain, and the intermediate rule set (along with lots of other goodies). Being a skirmish sized game very rarely will you use more than 4 Mechs per side. After that all you need to do is buy additional Mechs as you see fit or if you have a 3d printer there are bunches of Mechs you can simply print. Also every gaming group I have ever seen has no issue with proxying because battletech is not really a WYSIWG game as there are way too many variants of each Mech to make that feasible.
Yup, if you start with a codex and then proceed to buy miniatures, then once you've assembled an army the codex has most probably become outdated.
I would start all warhammer armies if not for the codices
That’s why I play Kill Team and Warcry. I have painted armies for Space Marines (Black Templar), Tyranids, Imperial Guard, Deathwatch, Death Guard, Chaos (Black Legion), AdMech, Necrons, Nighthaunts, Skaven, Stormcast Eternals, and Nurgle - but since they’re for skirmish games, none of those armies are more than 15 models. It gives you tons of choices. Thanks for watching!
I should really check Kill Team.
so Kill team and Warcrafy, extra specialist and game variant rules that you also have pay, if you have the codexes and the 40k rulebook.
oh yeah
and we can even pay for patches (chapter aproved) and beta test (indexes)
Apocalypse datasheets are also free, and the game plays like netpic (which is good!)
Once this channel introduced me to Gaslands (which is awesome) and now you peak my interest again, sneakily on the side in a video about different business approaches.
Back around 2nd thru 5th ed 40k I would get all the Codexes (Codices?) The price shift when GW switched to hardback format pressed me into focusing in the factions I own armies for. Now I buy a codex when I think I will play that faction before the next edition rolls out.
Where I draw the line is when they sell you the rules, sell you the models, and then sell you the rules for the models. Like when they come out with new models or tweak data sheets after book was published.
I'm actually 100% evidence to your line of thinking!
Haven't bought a codex for 40k in maybe a decade. I always hated and still do, the fact you need so many books and chapter approved and this and that before you can even play. In fact, I haven't played since 5th ed.
Now, when I discovered as you said all Warscrolls and rules for AOS were on the GW website, I immediately bought and am finishing my 2k points of Deathrattle Skellingtons in Feb. I even bought the Battletome later, as it contains more than just the taste the site gives you.
I just can't justify buying so many books that will be useless a year or two later, that cost nearly as much as my models... Unless I play like, Tyranids or Orks, which let's be fair, actually DO NEED BOOKS and never get them.
I think a huge 3rd option that I love is Flames of War: more of an al' a carte option.
You need the core rulebook (which is really cheap).
You then have 1 of 4 options for your army stats:
You can buy your army book, each nation/theater has its own book, so I play D-Day Americans (theres like a global campaign meta releasing in a semi-historical order, but my d-day paras could technically play against the Afrikacorps), that has everything you need.
You can exclusively buy their models, each box comes with a corresponding stat card, (but you do run into issues with boxes from previous editions and this isn't future proof).
You can buy a deck of cards that corresponds to your nation/theater, these deck has all of the stats needed to listbuild and for each unit.
My favorite option, you can pay like a dollar on their website to unlock your specific "company" (like a US Para company, or a Sherman Tank Company, or an Armored rifle platoon), and their listbuilder will have all of the stats for that company (which include support like tanks, planes, etc).
I use a combination of all 4, I love the cards as luxury item and I use a lot of non-battlefront minis to play with. The books are always full of wonderfull fluff and art work, and the online list builder is a good way to build a few opposing forces for when you run demo games. It's also a really good program, I've purchase a few different companies so that I can throw together a couple of different lists for different play styles, but you dont have to pay for anything you don't intend to ever use.
I worked out it would cost over £100 for the books alone if I wanted to get back into 9th (not including next year's chapter approved or proper chaos codex when that comes out). I have now switched to Grimdark Future and am probably close to that in terms of patreon payments but I feel like that money is "worth it" more.
Other companies: *gives free access to rules
GW: wait, thats illegal
The last time I was this early, Games Workshop prices were reasonable :)
But this was before UA-cam 🤔
when was that second edition?
Nothing in a Games Workshop shop is priced reasonably. But anyway... their business model is very successful. They sell to you directly with 40% more margin, they sell to 3rd parties in bulk with less 40% margin, those shops normally sell at a 20% discount over RRP, the truth is that GW makes money from all fronts. It’s a smart strategy, an no there’s no real benefit of being a loyal customer of a GW shop, you can buy the miniatures somewhere else and still come to the shop to play on their tabletop or paint miniatures with help
@@Severon7 And also they were never reasonable.
So, back in the 90s?
There are only two miniature wargames I would consider playing right now. BattleTech, and One Page Rules. BT isn't free, but I already have PDF's for it that used to be available at a time when it was free. One Page Rules is free, and even more they have very, very cheap paper standup "minis" you can print out using a printer.
The minis for that Mythos game do look pretty cool.
"There are other companies out there … that generally charge you for the books, and also for the miniatures."
GASP!
@RagDollRat U mad bro?
@RagDollRat indeed, and let's say you just want the bare minimum. You need that codex and someone of your group that's gonna play, or yourself, needs the core book. Being generous, that's still over $100 before you get into the actual hobby portion. Huge hump for new people to get over to get into the hobby.
@@dannypockets As they should be.
@@Bluecho4 It really makes no sense to get mad at games companies. It's very straightforward. They get to run their businesses any way they please, and you get to choose to support them or not. If you don't like them, play something else. The only thing toxic about all this is the attitude that entitled gamers have about it.
@@dannypockets I disagree. Consumers have rights too. They are entitled to complain about a company's predatory business model, and push back against it. Especially when a company has a borderline monopoly, and wields outsized power in the market and the relationship between seller and buyer.
Voting with one's wallet doesn't cut it. Customers need to make it known when what a company is doing is unfair or scummy. You don't rectify a bad situation by just shrugging your shoulders and saying "lol, just don't buy it". That is a dismissive attitude towards genuine problems and legitimate complaints. And I'm tired of corporate apologists using such statements to shut down dissent.
I could get on board more with the Warhammer rules if it was an all in one book that lasted 1-2 years. Having multiple books coming out a year is too much, even if they are optional
I'm done with 40K, I love the game and my God I love the miniatures but I'm done with the way they do business. So, I 3D print models from my minifactory and use the One page rule set. DONE! LOVE ur videos THANKS!!!
I love One Page Rules! My kiddos picked it up quick and its not too tedious.
I fell out of the hobby of wargaming due 10 years ago due to the community in my area really only played old historical games that were impossible to find the books for or Warhammer. I played Imperial Guard and at the time GW started making it more expensive to run that army. Plus it was always a pain to keep track of other faction armies due to you really had to buy the book or borrow the book for the newest faction update. I discovered One page games' Grimdark Future game system, which the pdfs are free and you can use any minis you like. Plus it's a lot easier to set up, keep track of factions, and doesn't have the constant arms race the GW rules have. And this inspired me to do mini conversions with bits to make a army of Valhallan ice warriors with a bunch of WW2 minis that are half the price of GW's.
Just a quick note about companies that offer free rules: most of the bigger companies doing this, like Privateer Press and Corvus Belli, will give you the rules for free, but keep all the fluff and lore in the physical books.
Warcradle Studios, however, gives you the rulebook AND the lore absolutely free for ALL of their games.
They also even have every unit card available for free, as well as free options to download almost any accessory you’d need to get started. You can download both the Action and Adventure card decks to print off by yourself if you wanted; the only thing you would need to supply yourself is some d10s (or a dice rolling app) and some models (or some appropriate proxies) to try everything out before spending a dime on anything related to the game.
I’ve always seen games workshop as a subscription service, you could if you wanted have your same army from twenty years back and it more or less still works. Gw keeps its cash flow up by selling books. If I want to play the current rule set then I sub in with the latest book.
That's a great philosophy
i've had this argument last week, i've got into 40k last year and i still cannot understand the idea that you need to buy so many books to play the game. and not only that, when a new etidion, rules or codex for you army arrives the books that you already have are worth nothing or is at least missing some rules, death guard for example their codex is not even one year old and there are rules for the army outside of the codex. both rule and codexes should be online so they can be updated faster, should be free because people would spend more money on miniatures.
One of the things I like, if not love, with SAGA is that they sell a watertight Ruleset and special dices. They are 100% decoupled from the Minis. They do not produce any.
Every time they release a new ÄRA (more or less a an Expansion) it is all about adding gaming value and mechanics and not about serving the Power Creep to promote Modell releases.
There Business Model rely on giving you good rules and someone else relies on giving you the best fitting Models.
This is so perfect for me as player
I want to get into 40k and the dance of book rules and codexes is pushing me back. I even heard that a Kill team 2.0 is coming so now I'm not even sure about getting the rule book for kill team!
I suspect (but don’t know for sure) that Kill Team 2.0 will come out this summer or (due to COVID) fall. That’s my guess. Thanks for watching!
@@tabletopminions love the channel! Keep it up! :)
There are also companies like Kallistra, who give free rules and much of their games are miniature ambiguous (Hordes and Heroes Fantasy). However, their miniatures are awesome and terrain is modular so you can create different battlefield every game
If I didn't feel like I had to pay a subscription to 40k or risk having the rug pulled from under me in terms of new rulebooks coming out I'd probably still be playing it.
Corvus Belli's Infinity has free rules and the app is so good that they don't even print unit rules. It prints your list comples with all weapons in the army, as well as a "courtesy list" for your opponent that removes the hidden information like lieutenant and special deployments.
10:45 you forgot the shareholders. Won't somebody think of the shareholders!
yup. only people that matter
It's the reason why I moved on to historicals because besides having to buy both rules and models....I can be safe that the rules won't change because it's a one time purchase compared to 40k where I have to play catch up with it with my own money.
I think if you take all that time/energy you spend (not you specifically, but us fans in general) hem-hawing about how terrible GW's pricing is, and place it into researching other companies that give you more bang for your buck, you'll be happier person in general. After deep-diving Privateer Press's "Warcaster" the last few weeks, i've found quite a nice alternative to 40k, that plays even better than 9th edition.
i belive it was WHFB 8th ed since the fan made version is called 9th age when GW did endtimes and went AoS instead of continuing a system that didnt sell enough
Yep, I’m pretty sure you’re right. Thanks for watching!
I've been playing miniatures wargames since the late '70s. FWIW, I don't play games that require me to use specific model lines, though I will sometimes buy miniatures from companies who have made models specifically for the games I play. But that latter purchase is purely esthetic; I buy them because I like the sculpts.
Note that historical miniatures have nearly always had separate companies making models and rules. If you're playing DBM, or Command Decision, or Napoleon's Battles, or Age of Reason, you get to pick not only the company you buy the figures from, but what scale miniatures you're going to use. (I'd recommend talking to your friends before the latter unless you're planning to build both sides _and_ the terrain, though.)
The same has pretty much always been true of fantasy and SF miniatures games as well: Fantasy Rules, Full Thrust, Dirtside, Hordes of the Things, ....
But what GW has been able to do by going completely vertical is capture the entire revenue stream from a captive market.
Miniatures games, like CCGs, depend a great deal on network effect to get games. DBM for a long time was essentially _the_ competition game for ancients and medievals, in part because it's a pretty good game (and was excellent and extremely innovative when new) that plays quickly, and in part because it was the game that had the most players. And by having the most players, it was the most attractive to new players as well. It was a self-perpetuating circle. The same is true of GW; their games have always been both good enough* and available in enough places that they have maintained a critical mass of players.
* FWIW, I've never liked any descendant of Warhammer. I don't like the mechanisms, I don't like the world, and I don't like the game play. (I bought a copy of Warhammer at Origins '86 in LA and didn't much like it then. It didn't get better with time.) But the market penetration is an indication that "good enough" with a very strong network really is good enough.
Free Rules are great. I like to try before I buy. Its how I got into Deadzone and all those other Mantic games. I even built my own game board and purchased some D8's to play Deadzone. After playing the free rules, I brought a big box of their models.
Just got my Deadzone Starter in the mail last week. Have a few more Battletech minis to finish up and then I will be starting on Deadzone. Looks to be a fun skirmish game with a whole lot less investment than a GW game.
Mythos models are great to paint! I’ve built/painted 2 squads already but yet to play the game.
I am the perfect example of if 40k made their rules free, they would get more models sold. I first got interested in the game during the pandemic from a friend who had a couple models. But i'm broke. But i DO have a pc, and i had tabletop sim on steam. So instead of buying books and models, i joined a community that knew the rules or had the rules themselves, and played in tabletop sim with them, learning the game. Now, with 9th edition in full swing, i'm planning to buy my first models and paint set next week.
I never would have even considered buying anything from them, had i not gotten a taste of the game for free with people that knew it, and played it in a virtual space first.
The stuff is pricey. It's not something you just jump into randomly. Especially if you have extremely limited funds for entertainment like i do. I had to be very sure i enjoyed the game and the miniatures first. And after playing on table top and watching battle reports and painting videos and techniques for over a year now, i can confidently say, i really enjoy it, and i'm super excited to buy my first models with the recruit edition on GW.
I've started looking into other companies and their tabletop games because of this.
Either getting the rulebook for free to even be able to approach their games or not having a fixed miniatures gives me the creative want to customize things, unlike GW which discourages using anything other then what they offer.
I didnt realize the Warscrolls were still free downloads! Thanks!!
I stopped buying Warhammer (and 40k) with the start of Age of Sigmar. They needed to release the new rules free or no one of my gaming circle(and the others i have spoken with) would have made the step. The change in playstyle was big enough to warrant that as it has deterred many i talked with. I think that's more the point, why they did not sell those rules at the start.
That said, i have tested a few other wargames now, and prefer to recommend those one can at least have a look into the rules ahead of the time (ie. CMON, FantasyFlight...) just to get a feeling wether or not the person would like the groundrules.
To be fair to GW, they put the rules of 9th for free to download. The thing that they did not do was to put the datasheet up for free.
To be fair they put those in Start Collecting boxes etc.. and since the base rules are free, you can start playing without buying any extra rules. But all the basic datasheets should be free, rules like in the Indexes they did with 8th.
Outlands allows you to use any 5 models you want even though it has a sci fi spaghetti western feel. I've seen Cyberpunk, apocalyptic and even nuns with guns being used
I got into 40k in 5th edition, and at GW's website had most of the stats on the models' entry on the website.
Another great video. Keep up the great work. 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾🤩
Correct me if I'm wrong but Necromunda is the most expensive small skirmish game out there right now.
How many books and cards do you need to play at minimum? I think it's ~$100 before you even get miniatures.
Of course you probably need ALL the books because [Insert special table or rule here]
GW needed to get people to try AoS, due to it being such a jarring change from WFB - thus giving the initial rules away. They were not alienating their existing 40k base with the new 40k, so they didn't need to hook people with free rules. I'd not be surprised if GW tweaked the AoS core rules in a couple of years time to invalidate the old PDF and moved to the same model with that game as 40k, given the success of AoS. They now have the fantasy feeder games in place too, which helps them there.
Its not a wargame, but I have bought so many more pathfinder products then I have for any other rpg system including several editions of dnd, mostly because their business model involves making it easy to play.
I recently started playing 40k again and if I am honest, I would not have if wahepdia and battlescribe didn't exist. GW got a whole lot of dollars in sales from me because I could try before I buy, I even have bought the codexes because I wanted to, but if I had to buy the codex before I even started figuring out if I wanted to play a given army, I never would have started.
I really wanna play WH40k but all the books you have to buy really puts me off because I'd have to get like books for 2 factions just to be able to play at home. My other option would be Legion or Kill Team, but Kill Team is dead at my FLGS and I am somewhat skeptical of getting another Star Wars minis game after how my X-Wing hobby ended with the release of 2e
I have 500ish points of guard. 500 points of marines. 100 ish points of tau and necrons. Mostly bought for fun to paint. Haven't played a single game yet because of the cost of rules. $100 for me just to get started with one faction? Probably won't even have all the rules and they'll be incomplete or outdated within 1-3 years. I didn't know age of sigmar had free rules. I just assumed it was like 40k. Probably will start a AOS army now.
I see the advantage also to not only the PDF rule sets but also the companies that have their rules on Kindle for sale. I personally am willing to drop a few dollars to buy an electronic version to see if I like the rules. I figure if nothing else I am paying for entertainment for the amount of time it takes me to read the rules.
I, too, decide to buy games workshop models while on the toilet.
I sometimes think about Games Workshop when I'm on the toilet too, but I don't buy any models. I pretend the customers are in the bowl already.
I am trying 40k out as a hobby (the pariah nexus got me... lesson learned about doing research before buying) and thanks for these videos. Just wish I had made a smarter first purchase. Oh well the models look cool at least.
12:41 The toilet he orders from... 😆
The only reason why I didn't join the hobby earlier is that it's always NOT a good time to buy into 40K rulebooks. this edition is probably going to get new version soon, or this codex is pretty old, or that OP model just hit the shelfs and is overdue for a nerf... the minis prices I don't mind that much, I can take it slow, but the fact that I don't play for 2 years and everything I own is now obsolete? screw that!
Thank you for broadening my awareness of other tabletop science fiction games. Stargrave ... we have to wait on for its release? Boo ... :) Overall, very good contrast on free vs pay models for gaming.
Stargrave is coming out in a month, end of April. We’re almost there! Thanks for watching.
I'm thinking you might be paying for rulesets partly because there is lore incorporated into the books. The fluff can add to the feel of the specific game you are purchasing (in my opinion). Something from GW has a lot that goes into the fluff, where as something printed by osprey has less lore and usually less other fluffy stuff.
You could give away the rules for free and sell the books through the fluff.
But that would make less money.
I’m since the 3rd edition no longer interested in the fluff, cause overall, it’s always the same.
And with the Primaris Marines they destroyed the fluff anyway.
@@bavarianbenkenobi7265 that makes sense since you've been in it so long. For me it's all kind of fresh since I've only been at it for almost two years, but I have already been bombarded with space marines, so I get that lol
Honestly, the lore in the Wrath of Kings book (from CMON five years ago) was one of my favorite pieces of fiction ever. I loved it, and it was included in the free download. Thanks for watching!
I wonder if it has to do with the age of the games. I have lots of 40K miniatures that are decades old so I don’t have to buy that many miniatures, but Sigmar is newer and so there is still a lot of model buying?
The last 12 months I've just been painting as not sure when I'll be playing. Still hoping to use new ork rules before new codex drops
I have been a board gamer for a while and always intrigued by war games. After researching a bit I decided to buy Star Wars Legion over WH 40K because I don’t have an attachment to the lore but what baffled my mind was that I needed to buy a rule book. I think the HW models look great but I don’t like buying the parts and the manual separately.
Warmahordes made me collect caps from milk-packeting, so I can try and proxy and play with friends before buying
I'd love to see some batreps for those indie games.
Guerilla Miniature Games- Ash loves indie titles and has published a few himself.
Studies have shown that piracy increasing sales of merchandising etc. So not only would Games Workshop sell more models, if they went to a digital only rule set they could also have a much better game system, being to update and errata much quicker and easier than they do now.
The caveat with the AoS rules is the warscrolls dont give you the points cost or any of the army rules. So you really can't play without your battletome
I wish they actually stuck with the free rules thing like they promised. It would have made aos that much better than anything on the mainstream market.
Less books, they said. Ha! What a joke :')
Paying $115 for a codex and a rule book and still having nothing to play with is the reason I will not play 40k. Plus the fact I dont know which codex I should even buy because I dont know which army I want to play.
Great video, very interesting viewing 👍
I can see how they decided the flagship IP gets kept at “max squeeze” levels of monetization. It’s a shame since the “eh, just keep it alive” logic worked well for fantasy- franchising to a Total War and the rules situation is great for the game.
Wasn’t fantasy under threat from Kings of War (which also had free rules) when they made the Age of Sigmar call?
GW has a captive audience and is trying to capture every penny they can
If the rules for 40k were free. I wouldn't complain about miniature prices. And I would definatly have more armies.
Age of Sigmar is still a harder sale. With 40k, they seemingly cannot make models fast enough so there's no need to entice people to buy more models. It seems like their strategy is geared towards selling the big boxes. I was really sold on the Indomitable box. There's a lot there but because of it, they can mass produce a line of figures and "force" people to build with those units instead of having to have supplies of a bunch of niche units if everyone just built piecemeal.
If games workshop would stop charging us for books and updates to their game...id play it. But the greed is just too obvious and insulting so i cant keep on buying new editions stuff...how hard is it to just get the game right and stop updating it jesus Christ... so hard to follow
Especially if such stuff they're charging us for usually gets released with typos of worse :')
It is like game consoles. The companies make so much money off of the games and "live" services that they could give the console away for free and still make a killing. Or printer companies give away their printers because ink is so expensive.
It well be interesting to see what GW's business model will be with the Warhammer Fantasy revamp.
Doom on shareware! such fond memories!
I gave up on GW with the new editions coming out all the time which totally changes the game and army lists all the time. Tried to keep up but with not that many games played per year it was too expensive for what I got. With the same money I can get a plastic army for other games.
9th edition 40k rules are free. You can also view all of the data sheets from previous codices in the 40K app but as new codices are released for 9th edition, each one of them comes with a digital code that you can use in the app to get the entire codecs electronically for free.
@corrinavatan I'm addressing the point that Uncle Atom brought up in the video. I'm not debating whether or not you get the full set of rules or not.
@corrinavatan We'll have to disagree on the intention here. I just felt it was relevant to point out that between 8th edition, as Atom discussed in the video, and 9th edition, things changed. Sounds like you still aren't ok with the change, which is fine, but we all have our opinions on whether or not the change was enough and opinions are not something I care to debate about.
@@eldritchseer I really agree with you. Of course you can play the latest edition of 40K just with the free rules and then buy some of Gws models. Then you have both the core rules and the datasheets. Sure you can’t play a Matched play game but that isn’t the only way to play 40K.
Stargrave for the win.
I 100% agree with you I'm having to change my army list because I'm not paying 30 dollars to run 1 guy in my army when I've already spent 100 dollars on books
A hundred? Jesus I’ve been playing GW games since the late eighties. I could put a down payment on a new house if I had the money back all the GW books I have bought.
GW gave away rules for AoS to attract people because it wasn't an established game. They know people will pay for 40k rules because it's a decades established game. No surprise they didn't give the rules away for free, and even if they did, I don't think it would translate to higher sales for them.
That's why I like AoS from the beginning, the rules and warscrolls are free so I can start playing and if I want to go deeper with an army I can buy a battletome.