Celestial Stats Are The Biggest Problem With Guild Wars 2 WvW.
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- Опубліковано 24 чер 2023
- As you most likely know Vallun released a video defending celestial stats in World Versus World. I disagree with his takes and everyone who agreed with him, and I think there is no reason to keep celestial stats in WvW.
If you disagree leave a comment, I am happy to debate this and I will be leaving my own pinned comment going into more depth on certain issues because I was not able to get to everything due to the video length.
The comment I left on valluns video that also serves as a tldr for this one:
In this video you admit that cele is unbalanced, yet also say it isn’t the problem? Are there op builds that aren’t cele? Yes of course, but for 75% or more of specs the most optimal build you can play is cele. Clearly it is unbalanced. And you are right that cele doesn’t do well in zergs, so why can’t we get rid of it for roaming?
From a new players perspective, I also think cele is hindering their fun in WvW roaming. While many new players gravitate towards cele because of how easy it is, many long time players do as well. This is creating a roaming experience where you run into groups of cele players which is impossible to take on as a solo player. At least when bad players group up on builds that aren’t tanky it’s possible to win a 1vX fight, and as a new player you can learn the skills to do that. As a player who abused condi Druid when I first started playing, I felt satisfaction and thought I was a good player when I won 1v1’s or twos. But now as I look back on it I know that I was super bad and still have a lot to learn, and learning the game is what keeps me playing. If a new player does not want to learn so be it, but why should they have an advantage over players who took the time to learn the game?
You should not be able to beat multiple players at once without being good at the game, but that is what cele allows you to do. Recently I played cele builds in wvw and it felt like I didn’t even have to try to beat multiple non cele players. Beating 3 bad players should be a feat of skill, not running into them and spamming skills while they literally don’t do enough damage to kill you.
More on the build aspect, many celestial builds do more damage than the power or condi variants. You mentioned perma prot ranger, but even WS sic em can’t out damage cele boonbeast. I am not even talking in the specific 1v1 of booneast vs sic em, boonbeast straight up does more burst dmg than WS sic em that runs full berserkers stats. My point here is while their are power builds that are unbalanced, not a single power build is as stupidly op as the best cele builds in the game, and many power builds are not better than the celestial versions of them.
The only way to beat cele builds are to play cele builds. Let’s face it, the best cele builds completely counter any power or condi build and you have to play cele to beat them. Does that not seem unbalanced to you?
Even if celestial was removed roaming is far from balanced. I am tempted to do a series where I give balance ideas for every class, I am far from the best player but I would like to see if as a community we can push for changes to be made in wvw. If I am not the person to do it then someone else smarter than me better take the damn torch because I am tired of nothing being done. And since nothing is being done, lets legit hand anet the patch notes on a silver platter all they have to do is code it in and we can see if it gets done. I doubt it, but the series would be fun to make anyways and I love having balance discussions :)
do it. even if some ideas are bad, it opens up discussion and gives people with alot of knowledge another platform to voice their opinions, since the forums are utterly useless for any kind of valid roaming based discussions.
So he’s telling me I should make a Cele build. Time for an update
Gl hf out there
👏🏽 Well said and great examples to validate your points made.
Cele stats were removed from the other competitive game mode: sPvP. It makes no sense that they're left in WvW; I honestly think Anet just isn't sure how to do it, since you share gear with PvE.
I mean... I wouldnt mind if celestial was tuned down in pve either. Hard content made for groups shouldnt exactly be easy to solo, and its not like you need celestial to do it if you know the mechanics of the fight. I play power untamed in pve, and while its more challenging than celestial ranger builds I can solo anything I have put my mind to. Hard or challenging content should be hard to do, period. Taking on group events alone should fall into that category, and while I get that many achievements require events that are dead I think it would be better to try and make the game more active than giving all players easy tools to solo the content because anet cant be fucked to do the harder but healthier long term solution.
@@sylver4494 Totally agree. I also think that lowering the skill floor of the game to appeal to the masses by holding their hand only ultimately makes them a worse player, regardless of the game mode you're doing it in.
Good video but for me ArenaNet don't care for roamming and small fights in WvW, they goal is to balance zerg fights.
And they fail at that too smh... tanky boon blobs exist for both roaming and zergs, nobody is happy with the wvw meta from what I hear.
Btw refering to one of the pro-cele arguments you mentioned , can someone explain how it is possible to balance the game around something different than single players (comparing a single healer spec to another healer spec, dps to another dps), so starting down up? How can you balance it around some mythical group if every groups comp, gear, numbers differ and you can tailor-make it as you wish (no strict roles enforced by the game)? Or is it just some execuse and reference to smth undefined and hard to check to justify lack of balance on the most basic level?
I roam solo in OCE time and literally all I run into is cele Harb or cele vind and as a power shatter chrono, it is so hard to win
Yeah. I feel like it's a pretty big issue. I get what they were going for with Cele gear, and I don't think they have to completely eviscerate it. But it's too good and offers too much. It was a meme when I first came back to the game and now it feels like they need to take a kind of balance pass for Cele gear for WvW specifically. They can balance for each game mode, clearly. I wonder why they can't (or just won't) specifically tune Cele down a little in WvW only. I could care less about Cele for PVE players. They can keep it exactly as is for boosted characters and all. Just tune the numbers a little (or a lot) as soon as they enter WvW. It almost seems bizarre that they haven't, frankly, as I feel like.... well, almost everyone agrees that Cele doesn't particularly feel good for the game mode long term.
Well first of all when anet plays wvw if they arent in groups they are in cele, I have seen quite a few cele ele players in the anet guild. Second of all I think they just dont grasp the full picture. Since cele is easier to play it must be good for new players, but because of how strong it is I think it alienates new players more right when they run into a veteran player playing celestial. Also vallun, an anet partner they defend now matter how toxic he is, defends the stats being in the game. And while I personally want celestial just removed because I think hybrid builds should be more creative, if they halved the stats so that it could only be used for min maxing I wouldn't have a problem with it other than it just being a boring min maxing option.
Anytime I see ANet devs in EU, they are either afk in pve or blobbing 50v20 or ppt. Vallun as a major ANet clown and holy guardian of celestial stats is a joke. Either completly remove cele from wvw or reduce it all by like 33%.. but I bet by removing/nerfing cele stats, game forums would be absolute sh!t storm and a lot of people would either stop playing or not even going to wvw without some boonball party to take over sentries and camps.
@@Olvrin exotic celestial gear I believe has a 20% stat loss from ascended, so even with a 33% loss of stats I bet ascended celestial gear would be strong. Maybe that would push it right into balance, but I take no risks! And yeah anet devs aren’t really good at their game, but they need to listen to the players who are. But here we are…
I think my favorite suggestion I have seen for Cele is to remove the toughness. Personally although I do think Cele is too strong and overall bad for the game mode, I appreciate the hybridity it (particularly the boon and condi duration) allows for in terms of making builds. Without toughness, it would have a much more clearly defined weakness. You could still make a lot of varied hybrid builds with it, but now at the risk of being squishier.
I still think that would be very strong, but much more manageable. I personally think it should just be removed, I liked it more when hybrid builds mixed a lot of stats to get their desired hybrid stats. But hey if they removed toughness, I for sure would not be complaining.
@sylver4494 Yeah I agree that mixing different stat sets was a better time. It is unfortunate how far Cele outclasss so many of the tri-stat options, and even the quad-stat ones too. If I could truly have it my way, I would like a return to tri-stat options only, but with more combos available. Sadly that will never happen but it's a nice dream lol.
@@ZaShaloc Fully agree with that, the rune changes and dragons/cele stats have almost completely kicked 3 stat gear out of the meta. Even power builds are being power crept by stats now and its very sad to see.
Good shit
"and Celestial is a very disgusting smell" my favorite part xD
Get the air fresheners
fax
Good points 👍. They should nerf cele in wvw and then start bringing down some other overperforming things too
If they remove Cele, then I don’t have an issue with them nerfing Defense trait line in Warrior and perhaps a slight buff to Strength to bring them in line. Right now, defense trait line is a bandaid to counter but is what gives us a fighting chance against Cele. I fought a few Cele players yesterday and no matter how many mistakes they made, random dodges they did for nothing, reflects they ate, ate every full counter and dagger F1 I pumped into them as well as ate my full burst combos, they still sustained through the fight. I lost some of the fights, I won some. The losses took a while, the victories took much longer.
But in each scenario I was punishing them and playing reactively, while they just stood still, dodged nothing/randomly and pushed buttons mindlessly. For a game that prides itself in its complex combat mechanics and has the utility of the dodge mechanic to add a layer of skill to fights, it sure seems to promote gameplay that is not engaging nor punishing at all if you are running Cele stat gear.
juego hace casi 11 años y el simple echo que alguien crea que una estadistica arruina mundo contra mundo me dice que no le estas prestando atencion al juego , mundo ocntra mundo se esta muriendo hace alrededor de 3 o 4 años porque no hay bance de gente en los servidores y los mapas son viejos como el juego y no pueden emparejar las horas de los jugadores y lo peor que no les importa , las alianzas no van a mejorar el juego , cada vez hay menos gente y los que quedan son puros zergs , hace años recuerdo que se quejaban de los que jugaban estadisticas de soldado y hace menos años se quejaban de los que jugaban estadisticas de expedicionario , ahora es celestial , nunca comprendi porque la gente se queja de como un enemigo arma su personaje , no lo tienen que armar como a mi mas me convenga y la idea en mundo contra mundo es matar al enemigo , no cuestionar su modo de juego , ojala dejemos de fijarnos en los rivales y veamos que a arena net mundo contra mundo no le interesa .
I used the google translate on google to read your comment, there may have been issues.
Almost everyone that I have talked to about why they are playing less or have quit mentions two things, bad balance and player mentality in the game. As I see it, that is the reason why the game mode has low population. Of course if they fixed the balance it may never have high population again, but who is to say. And the issue with bad balance, in this case celestial stats, is that it makes fights very unfun. There is not a single good build that I enjoy fighting or playing in the current meta, which is causing me and other players like me to play less or quit. Also the point of this video was not to say that celestial stats are the only problem, I even mention there are other balance issues. While I would like to see maps get updated, I think that might only get temporary involvement for wvw as people look at the new map, not solve why people are quitting. And I think I agree with you about alliances, but we will have to see how they play out when they get released in ten years.
Cele is just the best! Just dont mention TB next 😅
After celestial I am coming for trailblazers next. You have been warned.
@@sylver4494 actually i clearly remember people crying about TB 4 years ago , way before the rise of celestial.
People will figure out tanky builds, and others will cry about them... celestials or not.
In fact, 2019 condi TB mirage is one of the most hated builds of all time.
@@akhsdenlew1861 And mirage was nerfed, no? Just because people are always crying about something doesnt mean its not an issue and shouldnt be nerfed. Clearly celestial is more of an issue than trailblazers stat wise, because there is no good build to my knowledge that works better with trailblazers stats than celestial.
@@sylver4494 Druid , mirage and berserker works better with trailblazer..
And yes mirage was nerfed and celestial will be nerfed eventually or at least the overpowered versions of it .. Right now : Willbender, harbringer.
But don't underestimate the Tears around the trailblazer statline back in 2019 or something.. i remember a lot of crying around trailblazers.. like A LOT.
People just don't like condi damage in general it seems.
@@akhsdenlew1861 Druid mirage and berserker do not work better with trailblazer. Berserker is the only one that there is an argument for, druid I have tested myself and celestial was better and mirage I know the best wvw mirage NA who says celestial is better. But berserker it is up to debate, I think celestial is better because it gives it more stab duration and healing which makes it infinitely harder to kill, and trailblazers only gives it a bit more damage and damage reduction.
so many things to talk about here.
I am not really gonna say that you're wrong in your points, cus... eh , you probably are not really wrong.
There are just some points that you are missing...
And also some undisputed-historical facts in terms of roaming BEFORE the celestial meta.
Okay for starters... That cele soulbeast is NOWHERE near the tankiness of the other celestial builds.. Like literally if you gang up to this guy with 2 people, it will MELT easier than a power-sickem soulbeast...it's also meele, power sicken soulbeast can rekt u from 1500 range.
Power soulbeast will have his range, his stealth, his F2, his block, his dash and kite, his knockback... I geniunly believe that sickem soulbeast is FAR better than it's celestial counter part.
I think that's like.. the only thing i completly disagreed with in that video....
I mean come on, power soulbeast is busted in roaming and that's NO secret for years, right?
Moving on to the celestial stuff.
When people say celestial... they though of Cata, harbringer and willbender... Maybe Even revenant, but eh... i will stick to the other 3 for now.
The celestials are... very meh.
CATA was the big problem.. was it becouse of celestial? or becouse it was overtuned?
Cus it was causing problems in pvp also...
And once the nerfs occured...every cata went suddenly "poof".
this is KINDA of a proof that Stats are not the issue, but problematic builds that are busted in combination with those stats are.
Now i believe that Willbender and harbringer Celestial are like.. top of the food chain right now.
In order for celestial to deal damage, it needs MIGHT.
Without might generation, celestial does no damage.. simple as that.
Now let's try to rewind a bit.. a few years ago, before the celestial.... to a roaming era that i call "the great thief era".
So you had daredevils, worse than a pile of shit being 100% unkillable, harassing everyone who dared not to play thief with their perma stealth and their busted shadow arts bullshit FOR YEARS.
And even worse, you had deadeyes being... you know what? i won't even discuss about it cus it pisses me off already, just watch lord hizen's video.
The point is.. that i used to roam with a spellbreaker ( poor me) and 80% of the players i saw SOLO roaming, were THIEFS ONLY.
the other 10% was mesmers, and the other 10% were rangers.
I used to roam, and every day the class i fought the most was always thief.
Now if u ask me what i fought more times, i honestly don't know.. i fought reapers, harbringers, dragonhunters, druids, scepters, bladesworn, scrappers.. tons of specs...
Many of which were NOT celestial.
Many of those were power.
a few of those were pure condi even.
Now let me point out another interesting topic here, that is revolved around the playbase mostly.
I've heard a lot of the times, that roaming is kinda dead ( solo roaming) and celestial is to blame for that..
I completly disagree...80% of the solo roamers were thiefs that were hiding behind their safety-perma stealth-perma dodge -perma teleport net..
the truth is that people were afraid to go solo roaming even before the celestial meta, that's why they always chose the thief as their class.
But what about the rest .. the 20% roamers who actually roamed on normal classes that could be killed?
Honestly, i'd say FUCK off to celestials also if people had the balls to roam around solo or at least duos.
But when everytime i only see people going at packs of 3-4+ and sometimes even with supports i will go celestial ofc...
i know you don't belong to this kind of people, but you gotta understand that most people do belong in that category.. in the category that fears of going out there alone, unless if they have a very solid safety net.. and since the thief is not that broken anymore cus of the SA nerf, that safety net is NUMBERS, and for me to counter that.. i go celestial.
But in the end of the day, as long as we don't return to the thief only meta, ruled by the perma stealth/perma dodge bullshit ... i'd happily say fuck off to the celestials... i had my fun with it anyway.
Huge text, kudos to anyone who manages to read it...
Honestly thank your for your comment, this is the kind of discussion I was hoping to have.
First Ill give a brief look at celestial soulbeast, it has more healing, damage reduction, boon access (not only because of the increased boon duration, but other traits/skills it takes as well). And as for defensives, it has very similar stealth uptime. It stealths for longer than sic em but less often. And they both have similar mobility. The burst is also at 1200-900 range, compared to sic ems 1200 range burst. (point blank shot is 1200 range). It is possible you just have never encountered the build I showcased in this video, but trust me it is much tankier and harder to kill. I can go into more detail if you like, but the only advantage sic em has is its block. Which is outweighed heavily by the sustain and damage reduction that boonbeast has. But unless you would like us to debate more on this point, trust me as someone who has abused both builds that cele boonbeast is much stronger than sic em.
Now lets talk about the build examples, mainly catalyst. Catalyst still is a big issue in wvw balance wise but it is harder to play than other celestial builds so people dont gravitate towards it as much. And for your argument about how it was also overtuned in spvp, they were overtuned for different reasons. FA catalyst arguably being one of the strongest builds in spvp history was not nearly as overpowered in wvw. I would argue that in wvw it wasn't even overperforming, but its celestial variants still are. I would argue that the reason it sees less play now is because it is harder to play than the other overpowered celestial builds. Why play catalyst when harbinger is not only better but easier? Doesn't mean that catalyst isnt strong still and doesn't deserve nerfs, it just means its not in favor. And while celestial gives more might to many specs, I would argue that harbinger does not benefit much damage wise from the might it gets. Its might duration gets extended by like 2s... If it didn't have the boon duration I honestly believe it would not affect much. But that is just one build, but looking at other builds we see 5-10 more might stacks based off the boon duration from celestial. And even without might altogether, the damage celestial builds put out is too much for how much sustain or defense they have. Dagger mirage, Celestial thief, Celestial untamed/druid and berserker are all examples of celestial builds that do a lot of damage without much might while still being very tanky.
Celestial is not the only issue in wvw, something I didnt really touch on in this video because I didnt think it was relevant to the point I was making is that I think shadow arts daredevil is the most overpowered build in wvw. More overpowered than celestial. Why is this not relevant? Because it is not the biggest issue, more builds are unbalanced because of celestial. And while we can all agree that thief is cancer, us all agreeing on that point makes making a video on it meaningless. Celestial being removed would solve the most amount of issues and unbalance in the game with one change, because the thief meta can easily be balanced. Literally one trait being removed is all it would take, then we dont have any big issues with thief anymore. Thief being overpowered does not mean that celestial isnt, and I think celestial is the biggest issue because the most amount of builds and interactions are made unfun because of it. And even if celestial and that one trait were removed, we have more issues to tackle as well. But with celestial gone, even the few thief abusers I meet aren't killing my fun as much as the endless amount of celestial players are. Bad thief players are much easier to kill than bad celestial players.
And for solo roaming dying, I am apart of the camp who thinks it is dying. And while I may have joined at the wrong time to really have an opinion on it, most of the players i have noticed quitting arent thief players. Most of my in game friends who quit or play periodically dont play thief, and all the thief players I know still play actively. Anecdotal for sure, but most of the players i know who quit or play less blame celestial for it. Not thief. And thief isnt the other reason for them quitting, its just them burning out on the game as a whole.
@@sylver4494 man i don't know it seems like our experiences are like the day and the night.. totally different..
Celestial soulbeast, celestial thief? celestial Druid?
Like where the hell you find those people?
i found like 2 celestial soulbeast in my life or something...and like 1 thief.
Celestial druid is not a thing in general i believe.
Mesmers are a thing, but they are kinda useless.. they just spam invuln, stealth and they don't do any real damage.
They just exist without posing any real threat... the old condi mirage and the even older 1 shot core mesmer were a MUCH bigger threat that this joke.
The only catas i've found after the nerf were power or cannon fodders.
Harbringer is straight up broken, nothing to argue here... cele harbringer has literally perma quickness and perma protection.. that's the definition of OP.
Willbender, same idea pretty much... if i take target 1 cele willbender, he has all the boons in the game all the time.
But seriously i don't really care other for celes other than that... no joke.
And how do u find.. so many celes anyway?
most people i find are power.. always and forever.
it's just that the fight against them is not as memorable as a long ass cele duel.
A bad cele will suck big time also btw... if you are fighting 2-3 people, and 1 of them is a bad cele... u don't even notice that he is there, he doesn't know how to do damage.
A power soulbeast however, no matter how bad he is, if he stays at 1500 range and just 1-1-1 with one wolf pack on, he poses a threat still.
i think most people try to look at the matter around the equally skilled 1v1 duels too much.
But 95% of roaming, is not that.
Most of the time u fight outnumbered against relativly worse players.
Now a few words about the thief problem.
Again, our experiences seem to be day and night.
I also had tons of friends revolving around roaming.
Guess what they were all playing? thiefs.
Now they are all gone and they are ofc blaming the celestial for that... they can't 1 shot from perma stealth anymore and that bothers them.
The only reason i want cele to stay is basically cus it supresses a very abusive spec, the overpowered daredevil.
If cele gets removed, it has to go hand to hand with the "death" of daredevil as well.
Otherwise we will have to deal with a daredevil only wvw roaming meta as we have for many years.
I find it more fun to fight against different classes and specs than only 1 abusive-overpowered spec...
So the way i see it, Celestial is a necessary evil that came to supress a worse evil.
IF both evils are to be removed, i am 100% fine.
If only 1 of them gets removed, we just return to a previous problem...
There is a reason why the so called roaming guilds were basically thief guilds.
you say that mentioning the thiefs is not the point of the video, but my main arguement is basically this.
Cele supresses thiefs, and i think it's good.
@@akhsdenlew1861 Many of the specs mentioned people do not play because there are better and easier specs to play, namely harbinger. And everyone who does not play cele in my experience is grouped up, hugging some kind of objective, or will run from any 1v1 fight. Even some of the people just mentioned use cele and do the same behavior. And I will say this, your experience with cele is clearly influenced by constantly fighting bad players. Many of the best celestial builds are still not publicly known because they are not as simple as harbinger and the people looking for something overpowered to play wont want to take the time to discover the builds and pick them up. Catalyst doesn't really see play anymore, but that is because the easy versions of it lack mobility. The mobile catalyst is harder to play but trust me it is still very strong. I don't run into many boonbeasts or mesmers that give me trouble, but trust me the builds exist and are very overpowered when played well. And while a bad power soulbeast is going to be more of a threat 1vx than 1v1, it does not change the fact that boonbeast is still a lot stronger and when played well it is unkillable unless you are cele yourself. And I disagree with the bad cele is just a "bad cele", often times a bad cele player is who is giving me the most trouble in a 1vx fight compared to the bad power players. Because of recent design with specs and traits, celestial builds are a lot more spammy than power builds. And I don't think celestial or thief will ever be nerfed in wvw, I simply do not think anet cares enough about roaming balance and I think that they personally like how it all works right now. Anet has a false misonception that celestial benefits new players, but as we can tell from your comment the average bad player does not make celetial look op. its the good players who know what they are doing and will take the time to find and learn the slightly hidden and harder to play build options. But if celestial were nerfed, thief would not be far behind.
P.S I say played well for a lot of the celestial builds, but in reality it just means the player knows the build well enough to actually know what the buttons are. Things like boonbeast are still unkillable even with the player random dodging and doing a lot of other bullshit bad players do, but as long as they dont panic they wont die. As someone who has played the build and tested it in duels, dying was simply a choice unless I was fighting was fighting some other cele aids bullshit.
@@sylver4494 " in my experience is grouped up, hugging some kind of objective, or will run from any 1v1 fight. Even some of the people just mentioned use cele and do the same behavior."
Definetly agree with this, which is the main reason why some good players have also turned into the celestial side... to fight against this kind of behavior... the alternative is to go in groups as well or just jump into completly unwinnable scenarios ( objectivly speaking) and get your butt kicked 95% of the time... which is something that i have done and trust me, it gets discouraging and exhausting pretty quickly.
"Many of the best celestial builds are still not publicly known because they are not as simple as harbinger and the people looking for something overpowered to play wont want to take the time to discover the builds and pick them up. Catalyst doesn't really see play anymore, but that is because the easy versions of it lack mobility."
It could be true, i myself play a very rare celestial build that i've LITERALLY never seen before and there are 0 videos in youtube with that build included... But how many of those people you will run into while roaming?
2 times per week?
3?
In my experience the TRUE overpowered builds are also the most popular builds.. and not only in roaming ofc... but in every gamemode.
Roaming is just a small cateogry of 1 of the gamemodes, and that rule applies there as well.
If noone plays catalyst right now.. it means that the class is not good enough for the masses to pick it up.
If 2 or 3 GODLIKE players with years of experience on elementalist are able to freaking destroy everything with cata, it doesn't mean anything to me...
The problem was the pre-nerf cata, when everyone could just take cata into roaming and have a 100% to win against everything... Now, this simply doesn't apply in my personal experience.. so i have no problems with it.
I do have problems with harbringer and ironically even more so with willbender ( both cele builds and in my opinion the best builds in the game right now).
But honestly other than that... i don't really care, i don't even meet those other celestials that you say...i don't know where you are meeting them...
With the exception of harb and willbender, the rest of the fights i get are.. people grouped up with power builds and even a full minstrel support with them..
One of the most common solo roamers i've found lately , is the druid... i find a lot of druids lately so there is obviously something interesting happening there, but all the druids i asked are a mix of trailblazers and apothetcary gear... so they are not the point of this conversation.
Look i see where you are coming from...i really do... What really worries me and surprises me is how the hell you prefered the previous thief exclusive meta instead of this one?
Don't you prefer to just meet... multiple classes and specs instead of just 1?
@@akhsdenlew1861The thing is if harbinger and willbender were nerfed people would just go to the next easiest and strongest cele build. Most likely berserker, but you could stop this chain by killing celestial. After celestial is dead, there are maybe 10 builds that I think need to be nerfed, then overall we have a pretty healthy roaming state. Some builds would be better than other obviously, but it would be very manageable. A lot of these can be solved by nerfing 1 trait or traitline, defense on warrior for example being nerfed would solve all the balance issues warrior has if celestial were also dead. And to touch on druid, yes most people use trail+apoth, I have tested that setup and I do not think it is better than cele. People run that because that is what a UA-camr paper roll runs, but in my testing cele is just better. And yes I prefer what I played as a thief meta to the current one, because the meta I remember pre cele was very fun and I was not running into mostly thieves. I remember a lot of warriors, rangers, heralds, weavers, and dragon hunters as well as thief. And like I stated earlier, a bad thief player is much easier to kill than a bad cele player. The biggest point in my video is how much of a nightmare cele is to balance around, the fact that it abuses every part of the game makes it impossible to target cele without targeting things that don’t need nerfs in the crossfire. And also without celestial I don’t think a thief meta would be as bad as you think it is, bad thieves are gatekept by soulbeast, bladesworn, and vindicator. Of course a good thief will beat all of these but it’s not like a bad thief will just kill anything. And in my opinion fighting a class that I can kill if they fuck up royally is much better than fighting a bunch of classes that literally do not die if they are at their keyboard.
I understand the hate Celestial gear receives, but even if you were to flat out remove Celestial, what's next? Trailblazers? Some meta builds can still use Trailblazers and be on par with Celestial as is - so you would have hardcore bunkers fighting one another and seeing who has the most condi cleanse in the their toolkit.
New players don't like to get one shotted with some cheese crap (Dragonhunter trap camp, Druid condibombs, Thief perma stealth etc etc). I was a Celestial player, and still am on some builds (Herald and Renegade), but I did dedicate a lot of time to learn Power Scrapper, and it was very unforgiving, but I also did not feel satisfaction when I "won" a duel against a worse player who didn't know that Blocks and Dodges must be spammed when Scrapper weaponswaps into spam grenades mode, it was always "eh". But having a 5min duel against old Cele Firebrand as a Cele Weaver was kinda fun, since I knew I couldn't take him down easily and neither of us are amazing players, but neither of us were oblivious to what the other profession does.
Celestial is fine in my book.
Trailblazers, while still pretty braindead, has never reached the same level of ease that celestial currently has with the exception of *maybe* pre-nerf condi mirage. Not to mention the fact that nearly all trailblazer builds are beatable by or even have losing matchups to power builds in the current meta.
New players are going to lose fights, there's no way around that and nor should there be. All three of the builds you mentioned are non issues to anybody who has even a moderate level of skill at the game unless they're running something that is directly countered by said builds ( though nothing is countered by a full trap DH and anybody who dies to it really deserves the death ). Sure, it's not fun to jump into wvw and get steamrolled by everything, but it's a pvp game mode; it should be about skill and new players SHOULD get destroyed by people who have been playing the game for years. All cele does is teach new players that they don't have to put effort in to learning how to get better to succeed, they just have to throw the most braindead build on and they'll be fine.
As far as satisfying fights goes, if you are at a skill level high enough to beat someone every time when both people are running a power build, switching to cele isn't going to make that any more fun. You're still going to be outplaying them at every turn, the fight is still just as one sided and uninteresting, it just takes 10x as long. Even worse if they're running cele and you aren't you might even lose to that same player who you steamroll 100% of the time power vs power just because they threw on some different gear. They aren't playing any differently or better, your build just can't keep up.
Cele servers no purpose in wvw other than ANet attempting to have larger player retention, but if the players you're retaining aren't even invested enough to bother learning a build that you can't roll your face on, are they really going to stick with the game that long anyway?
Trailblazers can not be on par with celestial anymore, the last trailblazers build that was better or as good as its cele counterpart was just killed. And while I think trailblazers is dumb, when it was meta I was not asking for it to be killed like I am with cele. It is very tanky but not as tanky as cele, it has less burst damage because most condi builds cant do the burst damage that cele can. If players want to slow down the fight condi is an option, because that is what the stat type does, slows it down. Cele keeps the pace of power builds while being tankier than condi builds, which is why I think it should be removed. As for new players, my point still stands. They will have an easier time until they fight cele, in which case they will be able to do nothing against it. And again why should players be hard carried? Are there 1 shot builds that need to be nerfed of course, but being so tanky that nothing can kill you is so much worse IMO. And also if you didnt feel good when you killed people on scrapper, how do you feel good when fighting players who literally dont do enough damage to kill you? It doesn't make sense, either way a new player cant kill you but at least on scrapper if you fuck up royally you can die. The same cant be said for a cele build.
@@sylver4494also I want to add that cele gives up nothing to be as good as it is. One shot builds need to go full glass, all dmg traits/runes/sigils to hit that hard. They give up sustain for dmg. If they miss the burst or don't kill you instantly, they are a free kill.
@@FatesGuidance Thief used to 1 shot you with dura rune and SA though...
most soulbeasts would run dura and wilderness survival and still one shot you with ease.
Scrapper still one shots with nade combos even in a tanky meta ( lol) and pretty much every power build would run Dura rune.
and ofc there is no such thing as all sigils for dmg, since everyone plays cleansing and 90% plays energy as well ( both defensive).
Not to mention that any reasonable build will run at least 2 stun breaks and plenty of condi cleanse.
I am necroing this video, but these are great points.
Way back when in WoW, as the first expansion launched, a new PvP stat was introduced: resilience. Resilience reduced the effectiveness of crit by both lowering the chance of being crit and the damage of the crits received. A good chunk of the community complained that resilience killed PvP when in truth it somewhat kept most bursty specs in check and helped in bringing the PvP experience to the cusp of being enjoyable and garnering huge success in the WoW playerbase - of course as far as a PvP mode can be successful in an mmo.
I always somewhat defended Cele as a necessary evil, drawing some parallels between resilience and Celestial. But resilience was limited in scope and acted as a defense mechanism only. Celestial is poised to either be the best or not be relevant, and if this has to be the case then maybe it's better off being relegated to rings and trinkets only, to act as an optional layer of defense and offense if needed.
Another solution might be to allow a single Cele armor piece so that minmaxers can have some leeway - I'm a fan of Cele chestpiece to get close to 10% boon duration and have some leftover precision and ferocity.
The thing is, regardless of theorycrafting a solution to the problem, for new players learning to survive is an issue and Cele helps them in the quickest way possible: by gearing. Traits are more interactible and take time to be learned, and a insta dead newcomer won't stick around the pvp game modes or the game for long.
Still though with all this being said and done, Cele is an issue that needs to be taken into consideration, and discussed as such.
In reality the solution to this problem isn’t about gear stats, it’s about math. This was an argument that I heard after this video was made and posted, but if the math behind power skills and conditions were changed we could solve a lot of problems. Right now you can invest only a bit into power or conditions but get a meaningful amount of damage out of them. Damage in this game needs to be high scaling and low baseline, we can even keep damage in general about the same as it is now just the math has to be different. This probably won’t ever be done tho, this change would only be relevant to wvw roaming and it would be very time consuming to implement. So the easiest solution that will make this problem manageable is cele gear. And without cele there are still builds that keep high damage builds in check, people just forget about all the effective bunkers that exist without cele stats because cele stats do the same thing but with more damage/pressure.
@@sylver4494 oh absolutely.
I'd argue that Cele is the new bunker meta only due to the fact that damage is a fun thing to do all in all, understandably so.
About the way skills work and the power vs condition disparity, the fact that condi needs two stats for performance and power really needs three, with weakness and protection both working against power way more than cleansing or reso, creates a whole environment where I feel the discussion could take place for the overall pve experience aswell.
Things like blindness allow for skill espression and decision making. There should be more things like these spread throughout instead of blanketing buffs that make the boon system a necessary evil, as you pointed out.
@@MyFoolMind I wish that condition weapons had no conditions on their auto attacks and that the "condition on crit" were good traits and that is how condition builds got their sustained damage. Rn conditions are far too spammy. I think that blinds are a bit too easy to come by as well, but overall I agree that they are more skill based in nature. This game has a lot of issues, while I think cele is the biggest one even with it gone there are plenty of things that need to be done in. All the gamemodes have issues tbh. Speaking of pve, I also think celestial shouldn't exist there either but since its not annoying a program with how overpowered it is its not that much of an issue.
i'm absolutely fine with removing celestial completely from the game... as long as they also remove berserker, marauder and dragons with it
I am down for them to remove dragons, I don't like that stat being in the game. Assuming you aren't joking because I am not sure, why would you want to remove berserkers and marauders? In the current state of the game both of them have tradeoffs and are relatively balanced.
@@sylver4494 idk what tradeoffs they have, they are the main dps sets for every power build... i would actually like to remove them because everyone is doing too much damage anyway and i want to see how people build their toons with the other 40 attribute sets, what kind of combos are gonna become popular, how are people gonna balance for defense and offense... don't you think it's kinda sad that there are more than 40 variations of items and we use 2 of them?
@@HKRazieL The tradeoff is the zerker gear makes you a lot glassier, and marauders gear gives you more health but less damage than zerk. And there are other stats used, or at least there used to be before dragons and cele. Assassins used to be used to minmax crit chance, and valk used to be used when you had too much crit% and wanted more hp without losing damage from marauders. Marauders/dragons now does almost the same damage as zerk with a lot more hp, and it also makes using valk useless because dragons stats are better. And if you want to hate the fact that not all stat types are used, blame cele. Cele completely killed all condi stats because cele is just better, and it killed all hybrid min maxing stats because it is just better. Before cele hybrid builds used to use many stats to min max their damage and sustain, now cele min maxes for them. And honestly very few builds do too much damage in the game right now, I would only target a few builds with damage nerfs and it really is not a problem with zerk stats at all. And all of these zerk one shot builds that do a lot of damage have a big tradeoff: if you react or predict the burst they are dead. And going back to the not all stats are used, because of how many stats are in the game some of them are just bad. Who would ever use bringers stats for example? And because of the bloat of 4 stats, who would ever use sinisters over grieving? If you wanted to make stats more balanced accross the board you would need to give cele a nerf and 3 stats a buff in general.
@@sylver4494 you covered a lot of points and i disagree with most of them but i can't bother writing another wall of text... have a nice day
@@HKRazieL :(