Is The 45-70 Gov. Really That Powerful?
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- Опубліковано 3 січ 2023
- Correct me if I’m wrong, but most hunters today think of the 45-70 Govt. as a thumper. Bear protection. Good close-cover elk cartridge. Probably knock the “moo” out of moose. Why don’t we do some field tests and add some facts to these suppositions?
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Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
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All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely. - Спорт
When you reload for it, that's when you truly fall in love with it. Mild to wild. Heavy to light. Jacketed or lead. It does it all.
Couldn’t say it any better.
Nailed it. Modern powders and ballistic tip projectiles make it a hog busting machine.
Your spot on it can easily be brought right up to 458 wm if you have gun enough to hold the pressure,,aka Ruger #1 or 3,, I push a 250 gr at 2800 plus out the barrel
Hard cast... love it.
@@skenney6040 Yep, can push 430 grain cast bullets 1600 fps for Trapdoor Springfield pressure.
Handloaded to the pressures a Marlin can take a 45-70 will rock your world. Factory loads are usually loaded to be safe in the old trapdoor action.
Correct. A full house hand load is big medicine. But others are more powerful
Load it up for Ruger no1. 405gr at 2100. Lol
The Marlin is part of the problem. Step up to the 1886 platform, and the 45-90 through to 50-110 are available in a rifle with sorta controlled round feed; decent weight for the the recoil; and none of the short barrel nonsense that plagues the Marlin. Of course there are situations, in say alders, where the short barrels are appropriate.
@@HondoTrailside marlin 1895sbl is awesome for heavy bush walking. Very balanced, My brother loves his. Moose go down everytime 150 yards and in. 325gr bullets.
Handloading is the way to go. A +p loading for a strong modern firearm (ruger no1, TC encore among others) is an entirely different beast. I've shot two deer with an expanding 300gn copper bullet at ~2100fps and it literally knocks deer off their feet. They get back up, but don't go far. It would be interesting to see a comparison of different 45-70 loads from some of the more "boutique" ammo manufacturers (Underwood, Buffalo Bore....).
There’s a basic disconnect between what is the public perception of the .45-70, what it was designed to be, and what it can be.
Interesting that you chose the .30-06 to compare it with; another cartridge with a similar identity complex.
Cool video that deserves a part 2 with ammo selections from Buffalo Bore, Garrett, Double Tap or some other specialty ammo companies.
Well said. The 45-70 can be loaded across a very wide spectrum of velocities, bullet weights, and energy.
Absolutely!👍
Frontier/Hornady, light mag.180 fr.mv 2880.
1873 was a good year for cartridges. 45-70, 44-40, and 45 Colt all introduced that year. They are the oldest centerfires still made, but of course the 22 short preceded them by a couple of decades.
Yep 1873 is perhaps the most significant date in modern firearms development. 1955 is similar in the 20th century.
Didn't 44-40 come out in 1866?
@@seththomas9105 No, the Winchester model 1866 was chambered for the 44 Henry rimfire cartridge.
I remember it well. We got our telegraph installed that year and my outhouse went from Sears to JC Penney Catalogs.
If I’m being charged by a brown bear I want the 45-70 with hard cast bullets not a 3006.
Yeah the problem with the 30-06 is that it goes straight though. That 45-70 is goin to tumble inside and cause a lot of damage and stop the beast dead in its tracks
@iaiband it depends on the bullets your using in the 30/06. you can use ones that expand better . its killed lots of bears but you gotta know what your doing.
Transfer of energy VS pass thru.
@justinriley8651 a lot of bears have been killed with bows but i still wouldn't want one if a pissed off grizzly was charging at me hunting and stopping are two very different things
Yes, if loaded correctly. Buffalo Bore and others make full power loads, if your not making your own
The 45-70 really shines when you reload for it. I have a 420 gr cast bullet load that I have clocked at over 1800 fps out of a Browning limited edition run of the old 1885 high wall with a 28"barrel and it groups nicely as well. That is an absolutely fabulous load that I hunted with extensively on Kodiak Island when I lived there. It did not damage the meat because the hart cast bullet did not expand. But it penetrated deep so I felt that it would have done well against an angry bear.
I do 2095 fps. out of my BLR in 450 Marlin, no signs of pressure.
The Hi Wall will take a lot more chamber pressure than the Marlin will. I own a 38-55 Hi Wall and a .223 Lo Wall, and love them both!
I keep seeing the love of reloading. Can you offer any suggestions on how to get started? Picked up a Henry 4570 but I don't know anything about reloading etc.
@@StealthJackson12B YOU TUBE
@@StealthJackson12B Well for starters the 45-70 is really not the best to start with, but you can do it with a little skill set. Buy a good Lee cast iron press (forget the Chinese RCBS), and a good set of dies (run from Redding). I personally like Forster presses and their dies, but think there are better strait walled case dies. I mostly use Lyman for these, but will often be caught using some Forsters instead. I never had much luck with Hornaday anything, but a few folks swear by them till they get their hands on something better. The real problem with that big long case is pressures involved with sizing cases, and this is where nothing comes close to the Forster. For a powder dispenser, the old Lyman is plenty good enough. I'd recommend weighing every charge you throw, and here I use two different electronic scales made by PACT. One has the RCBS lable on it and the other is from PACT. I must have a dozen priming tools, but always go back to my K&M or the device built into the Forster press. I don't trust any of the others. Case triming can be an issue, and here I use a modified Wilson. There are others, but the Wilson works well and is cheap. You'll want to select a die that will create a good bell mouth at the end of the case (that's why I think the Lyman M die is the best). The 45-70 head spaces off the rim, so all you have to do is trim the cases to the correct length (try to cut them down towards the minimum, but all the same length). For powder, that's your call. I'd go with 4198 or AA1680, and the 1680 is what I'd be using all the time.
For a loading manual, I keep several. Yet find that I only use two or three. I use the AA manual because they have the balls to list chamber pressures. I find the Sierra a joke right along with Hogdons and Hornaday. You pick out a load that seems slightly slower than this other guy's load yet uses almost exactly the same weight of powder. Look at the barrel length! Some will intentionally down load a certain cartridge because it's not their favorite (6mm Remington comes to light). Never use a load from somebody on the internet!! Always start about midway thru the range. Never load a minimum charge in a big case (bad things can happen)
When you get this 45-70 sorted out, look at the .450 Marlin and the .458x2" and 2.25". Better in a bolt gun, but will make that 45-70 like an also run
As others have said, the cartridge's main merit is in its reloaded form. I have an M98 Siamese Mauser in 45-70 and use a wide variety of loads, including a few that close in on .458 Mag territory. While I've never had a problem downing deer on my farm, my primary goal these days is to drop them where they stand, to avoid having to hack a path through a tangle of wild roses to recover them.....and yes, even a fatally wounded deer always seem to find the worst brier/rose tangle to die in.
Yep reload that bullet ucan. Get some mind numbing power. Out of the old girl. In agood single shot
Something that is not often mentioned in comparison to "spitzer-BT" 30-06 bullets is the effectiveness in the bush. A 30-06 will deflect off twigs when shooting in the bush. The 45-70 will chug through anything and hit the target. In Alberta, Canada (Where I live) bush hunting is a way of life. The ability to pound through some heavy scrub has its advantages, not long range advantage but a bulldozer in the bush is nice to have.
The cartridge is incredibly versatile. Been loading this cartridge for decades. It shines the most with handloads. Made some of the most decisive kills of my life with it. Hard to beat at close range.
Tell me about your experiences!
Niiice!😃
The issue woth 45-70 is the 3 pressures you can load them too. Almost all factory ammo is loaded to black powder specs/trapdoor vs lever vs modern/magnum tc single shots.
The chamber pressure range from 10-50k psi. So quite a diff
Holy hell i knew the cartridge had a blk powder load but i had no idea that it varied so much. Best no load up a modern round into am old school gun that would blow it up
Here I was thinking the issue with the 45-70 was that it specializes in shooting super-heavy rounds and can't do long-range shots.
@@MrWeezy312Yep. Modern loads have warnings not to use them in older guns.
@@ThirdLawPair even in the old bp loads it could do long distance shooting it's just not they same as how we consider long range shooting now days it carries enough energy even to 1000 yards it just drops a foot ball field to do it making it harder to correct for distance.
1866 Henry was originally chambered in the 44 Henry rimfire. The 1873 Winchester was chambered for the new 44 WCF (44/40).
The Henry was made in 1860. The 1866 is a Winchester, which has a loading gate and a wooden forearm, but shoots the 44 rimfire like the 1860 Henry.
Thumbs up, also the 45 Colt came out the same year, in the Single Action Army.
The 1866 Winchester was chambered in .44 Henry. It was never chambered in a center fire cartridge. The 44-40 WCF came out with the 1873 model.
@@MrGus4440 I was scrolling through comments to see if I needed to post that correction. You guys nailed it 🍻
FYI, I think .44 rimfire ammunition was still made until sometime in the 1920’s. I know the Colt single action was made in .44 Henry too as was some of the open tops. There must have been enough people still using those guns to keep making the ammunition.
Ron, thank you for introducing me to a new and much more fun way to split wood!
I’ve been splitting wood wrong all these years!
I would love to revisit this topic with different factory-available loads for 45-70. I have an affinity for the Underwood +P Xtreme Penetrator.
that is a VERY nasty round. I use the same bullet for my 9mm carry ammo as well. cant beat it.
Always great information coming from you. I no longer hunt for big game because of my disability but I appreciate your videos.
I've only been watching your channel for a few months, but you've become my go-to for ballistic information when I'm away from my books. I'm a big fan of your channel sir and I look forward to more videos!
I love my 45-70 in the brush for deer. I use Remington green box and it works very nicely with minimal meat damage.
Asking if the 45-70 cartridge is really “that powerful,” is like bringing up the old “brush gun” and “knockdown power” talks…. Doesn’t mean diddly squat as long as you’re bringing game home imo.
Truth matters.
Correct. The question should be: "what do you need?"
There's a reason why it's 150 yrs old, and the 'slow & heavy' still relevant. It works very well with minimal meat damage. It has some limitations, so does anything else.
Sort of yes, sort of no. I see your point, but this addressing a common misconception and helping out many shooters, especially new ones buy pointing out some hard data instead of old hunting stories and opinions from folks that think a 30-30 is just as good as a30-06 or whatever other ignorant nonsense. The 45-70 is a cool, historic, cartridge capable of handling North American game, nothing more, nothing less. But some think it's a big game stopping cartridge, and that it surely isn't.
@@sinisterthoughts2896 "Stopping cartridge" is relative. Handloading an appropriate bullet in a strong rifle can get that 45-70 producing ballistics equal to a 450-400 nitro Express, and it also depends on what you are trying to stop.
@@fedup3582 Exactly where I place the top tier 45-70 level. I can't see much between it and my 450-400.
I really enjoy listening to this man's wisdom and overall knowledge.
I mean...he just shot factory loads at logs in the snow...there's no wisdom there.
@@MattSpinks perhaps you need to watch a few of his vids to grasp the meaning of wisdom. He's been there done that. Most of us can't say we've hunted boar, bear, elk, moose or much African game.
In my experience the .45-70 produces excellent blood trails but often fails to kill "instantly" in comparison to cartridges with a higher muzzle velocity. I believe it has a lot to do with temporary cavities and their effect on the central nervous system.
Try a all copper bullet in it.. it will dump them under 75 yards… I think that is where big bore “slow”rifles shine.. the goal shouldn’t be pass throughs with this caliber it should be maximum expansion and total energy dump in the animal.
I have killed 15 bucks with my 45-70 and a 405 cast bullet none took another step. Shot placement is key with any caliber. You can do the same with a 22lr.
Both 45-70 and 30.06 are great for whitetail. I use 325 grain hollowpoint in 45-70 and 180 grain pointed soft point in 30 06. Also have great performance with 158 grain hollowpoint in 357 magnum. I have hunted deer using these three calibers the most throughout my years. Caliber, load, and platform depend on the environment I'm hunting in, terrain, and my role in the hunt (passive or active).
I also like 35 Remington, 308, 270, 243, and 30-30 for whitetail. I have used or owned rifles in all of the above calibers to harvest deer. Many other great deer calibers I just have the most experience with ones listed.
We are truly spoiled to have so many excellent choices! Great, informative, and entertaining video. Thank you and keep them coming.
Tell me this. Is there anything a 45-70 can do that a 30-06 cannot?
@@ThirdLawPair Mainly for me it is about platform more than caliber. My 45-70 is a lever that is shorter and lighter than the 30 06 which is a pump that is longer, heavier, and prettier than 45-70. The 30 06 is a better, more practical, cartridge for one size fits all hunting in North America. Especially for the lower 48 states than 45-70.
However, in my experience, the 45-70 in whitetail deer, much like 243 and 357 mag, seems to transmit more energy into deer for quicker kills than 30 06 that tends to blow through the animal and not transfer the rounds energy into the animal as efficiently. Shot placement, range, and deer size being equal with both 45-70 and 30 06. If that makes sense.
In one word to answer your question, NO. There is nothing a 45-70 can do that a 30 06 cannot do. The 30 06 can do MORE than 45-70 in pure cartridge to cartridge comparison.
Greetings from Finland
Hey Ron, thanks for the Red Ryder video. I bought one immediately :) The reason handloaders love 45-70 is the great versatility. This is my setup with a modern bonded Woodleigh bullet that work well even on African and asian buffalo. I have a Miroku 1886 and 1885 High Wall.
29.000 PSI 405gr 24" barrel 1886: 1600 fps / 2300 ft.lbf (great load for everything up to deer)
43.500 PSI 405gr 24" barrel 1886: 1981 fps / 3530 ft.lbf (Great load for moose here in Sweden)
58.000 PSI 405gr 28" barrel 1885: 2188 fps / 4306 ft.lbf (more energy than 375 H&H and can also be used with solids)
You say versatility, but those are all just different types of super-heavy short-range rounds. Variations on a highly specialized round isn't really versatility.
@@ThirdLawPair It's just and example of the different power levels since this is what the video was about.
Not many calibers are able to load specifically for a 60 lbs roe deer and 2000 lbs buffalo. In Scandinavia we normally don't shoot beyond 100-150 meters. And we have strict energy limits for each type of game. By versatility I mean that we can legally load it for different types of game and find a suitable bullet for it. Examples: SD .17 to .276 / 250gr to 405gr / Copper or led / soft or hard. This is not a long range hunting caliber by any means but surely sighting in up to 200 or 300 meters are more than ok with the right bullet.
I don't know where you got your information from but a factory load 45-70 does not have more energy than a factory load 375 H&H Magnum.
@@wadewilson8011 No, I clearly wrote about different handloads for specific rifles.
Nice video, Ron. I have been using my Pedersoli Sharps 45-70 for years and I never looked back. For my kind of hunting here in the woods of Missouri, it is hard for me to walk past my Sharps and pick any other rifle. It just reminds me of a past American era and it is fun and satisfying to shoot. With a 350gr bullet at 1400fps, it always drops the deer where it stood or within feet of where it stood. Then again, I'm a sucker for my Hawken or Pennsylvania long rifle.😉
Those were light and 1 medium powered rounds. Most are loaded for trapdoors or medium for lever guns. Full bird horsepower rounds are made for single shot rifles. Shoot those and you will see and feel the difference. Grizzly, buffalo bore and some others make some real barn burners.
Several Lever guns are capable of shooting loads in excess of 2000fps
What will a 45-70 do with 500gr bullets?
You can add Underwood to that list too. They'll crush some bone.
I load the Cast Performance 405 gas checked LFN fairly hot. Work up a load, it is impressive!
Check out Garrett cartridges.
I love both calibers you tried and wouldn't feel under gunned with either. They are both my favorite cartridges. As you said, the .45-70 has over 150 years of history behind it and in it's Black Powder days, it bore the .45-110 and larger. It's probably neck and neck with the .30-30 for number of game taken with it. As for the .30-06, well, it too has over 100 years of hunting 4 legged and 2 legged creatures. As the saying goes from my military days, "Turning Cover into Concealment since 1906", as was proved by your maple stump. The point I'd take for the .45-70, over the .30-06 would be recooil. I think the .45-70 is a softer shooting caliber compared to the bolt action .30-06. I'm never someone who finds themselves having to take any long distance shots so the .45-70 would be just fine. I've never been anywhere that I had to hunt farther than 100yds. Even then, the farthest I've ever had a shot on game was under 50 yds. But, Love'm Both.
If I was going to compare the 45-70 to something more modern I would have chosen the 450 Bushmaster and 444 Marlin.
Agreed, I shoot both in single shot rifles. 45/70 and 444 are very comparable target guns at 100 + yards.
Great video Ron. Old isn't better than new designs, you have to accept in time improvements are made. But it could break bone and hide back in the 1880s and it still does- the animals aren't tougher than they used to be. But it's venerable, historic and fun. It also hurls a lot of lead so if there's any advantage to that (debate continues) it's the go-to cartridge for that. Alaska guides recommend it, as it can stop a grizzly at short range reliably. So people buy it. I might re-barrel my old '86 from 38-56 to 45-70. That's an upgrade.
That Garrett article summarized for viewers. Essentially, if you take a super hard cast bullet with a wide meplat and send it at intermediate velocity you maximize penetration on ballistics Jel. It shatters bone, but the Garrett 540 grain super hard cast will penetrate 6 ft of ballistics jel and I have tested that myself.
People have taken rhino, elephant and Cape buffalo with this round. I would take it on safari before the 500 Nitro Express.
This cartridge deserves a lot more than just nine minutes of your time
The loads you shot are all pretty mild. If you want to maximize the power of your 45-70, try buffalo bore or underwood ammo.
YES 🙌
Nice looking 30-06
it is mythological, it helps that it comes in cool variety of guns and particularly lever guns.
Not so sure about that. It had to get popular before all the variants hit the market as hard as they have recently.
@@HondoTrailside .45-70 had a great run, thanks to hand loaders and lever guns. It certainly has the mystique of of an "elephant" lever gun among the fan forums. Seen discussions that it pentrates better than a .458 win mag and so forth.
Great video Ron! As others have commented, the Rem. and Win. loads you used are pretty mild as far as what the .45/70 can do. A good deer round for sure, but even mid-level loads like a 400 gr. hard cast running about 1600 fps will split your logs easily with one shot. Great round, I have two Marlin SS Guide guns I love for big hogs, as well as deer and any Bigfoot encountered! Have a great day!
So, in your tests, the '06 cleared the log whereas the 45-70 largely remained in the log, thus the log absorbed all the energy of the 45-70. Additionally, the 45-70 makes a MUCH larger wound cavity. Now, I would certainly want the -06 if I was to take a 150+ yard shot, but under that, the 45-70 is gonna be a better deer stopper for sure. And I do hunt with both.
Penetration is more important than energy dump anyway. Give me the ‘06 all day.
@@echofoxtrotwhiskey1595 the best 45-70 loads will always out penetrate the best 06 loads inside 100 yards.
Hydrostatic cavities are a thing at rifle bullet velocities.
In my experience 38,879,000 grains @ 66 fps seems to make short work of deer.
@@-John-Doe- lol took me a second but I figured it out 😂
Yeah, there's plenty of cartridges with more power and/or more accuracy, but the 45-70 is just so much darn fun to shoot!
Kinda reminds me of the good old days.
I've shot several elk with a 45/70. I've moved to its bigger brother, the 45/90. I had a CVA Scout 45/70 reamed out to 45/90. I've developed a load pushing the 403 grain Hammer at 2300 feet per second. I can push the Hammer 250 grain to almost 3,000 feet per second. The 45/70 is wonderful, but the 45/90 is even better! The factory 45/70 loads are anemic because of the Trapdoors out there, Love the video.
I have a Miroku built Winchester 1886 in 45-90. I stopped at 2350fps with a 300gr JHP. I really feel it can safely push harder if I wanted to, but I stopped there.
As with any other cartridge, within its purpose/parameters. I have found mine a joy with history and effectiveness in brushy eastern woodland situations. I use everything from period spec loadings to gas checked "Anti TRex/Squatch Stopper/F my Shoulder" loads in moderation. It is a plain fun cartridge.
Hey Ron I love the channel.One of my favorites But…..I have to say as a guitar player myself I absolutely love the guitar intro. Really cool and fitting. The perfect choice for your channel. You do a great job. Telling us what we want to know and very entertaining and informative. As a life long hunter myself I can tell your a man who knows. Absolutely great job and keep on being great!!!! I love it!!!!
I have a 45-70 Marlin 1895 GBL that I have never hunted with and plan to use next season for eastern whitetail in thick woods and shorter ranges. I figure the Hornady Leverevolution 325gr FTX has to at least perform as well as any 30-30 out to 150 yards. This is my first lever gun so I'm excited about taking it into the field. A little off topic, but your 30-06 rifle was beautiful, especially the magnificent figured wood! How about a short rifle review sometime?
certainly more than a 30-30
As a 444 owner, I think you will be happy. If you put the bullet in the boiler room the results will be very pleasing to watch.
I think there are better bullets than the ftx, but if you plan on shooting factory ammo, chances are Hornady will be your most consistent "standard" load.
The leverevolution rounds are really great actually.
What kind of 30 30 do you have to not have that is the first kever but the 45 70?
@@phasechange5053 I don't like them in the 444 due to the cut back brass, and I don't think it is as good as the 265gr Interlock,
I've hunted many years with that 265gr Flat point, and it has always performed.
If it does well for Operator, great. It's a different bullet in a different caliber.
The problem with the 45-70 is, like the 45 Colt cartridge, loaded down due to the weak firearms of the past. Back when Ruger was chambering Number 1 rifles for the 45-70, the folks at Hornady worked up loads suited for the caliber on that rifle. I still have a copy of the Hornady handbook from the late 1970's that had the load listed - along with the strong admonition to use it ONLY in the Ruger Number 1.
Loaded to pressure levels of other, more modern calibers commonly used in the rifles, the old 45-70 went from the days of the buffalo hunters to a 458 Mag short. Sadly, the factory ammo, as well as most published reloading data for the caliber, must be tame enough to work safely in trap door Springfield rifles and the like.
It is the same thing with the 45 Long Colt, which is loaded for antique revolvers dating back to the old cap and ball conversion pieces. But, that's another story...
I have a NO3 in 45-70 that I shoot hot loads out of...it loves 500 gr hard cast flung fast 🤠
try buffalo bore or underwood ammo!
That manual has three series of loads. Trapdoor( The rifle that got Custer killed), Marlin and Ruger. I like that manual because it has loads for some of the obsolete rounds.
@@kenore4003 My Sierra 2nd edition and Lyman 49th has all three also for the real old stuff, I go to lyman 42,43 and 45, but i load for some really obscure stuff I also have the Ackley manuals as well as some german ones. If your in to the obsolete guns and reloading for them, I would suggest getting as any old ones as you can, a lot harder now days as you dont find to many at garage sales.
I love the 45-70. Most fun gun i shoot in the lever Marlin, maybe outside of a lever 22 for ammo cost reasons. Hard cast heavy lead for penetration and 300 grain TSXs for hunting.
This was a "let's test the power of the 45-70, but my shoulder really won't like any of the powerful stuff" type of video.
It is very entertaining watching people who talk down the 45-70 being this short on honesty.
My first 45-70 was a 6 1/2 pound straight stocked Ruger #3 with curved hard buttplate. The thing kicked so bad I loaded way down to below Trapdoor starting loads using Sierra 300 gr HPs to tame the recoil. I found that even at those low velocities, it did a number on deer far in excess of what the "book" energy said it should. Whenever I am hunting a spot where I do NOT want to have to track the deer (such as next to a swamp or big thick briar patch, etc.), I always use the 45-70, and after many years of hunting with it, I'm still using that lower than Trapdoor starting load and it's still dropping deer. This is one of those cases where the numbers just don't tell the whole story.
Just did a video experiment on this myself and I was surprised at the results when loaded to the original specifications (that being a 405 grain hollow base lead bullet on 70 grains of our homemade FFF blackpowder. Also the later version which was a 500 grain lead bullet on once again 70 grains of our homemade FFF) in an original trapdoor rifle when shooting through water jugs. I was astonished to find that a 30-06 full metal jacket 150 grain bullet would consistently only make it through two jugs and into the third one before it had dumped all of its energy, whereas the 45-70s would easily penetrate through seven jugs of water.
Yes, that result is due to bullet construction and velocity. A hard bullet from the 30-06 would penetrate farther, a soft one from the 45-70 less. Generally lower impact velocity and higher bullet mass contribute to deeper penetration.
Another great video. I like the 45-70 but that is because I have one of the new Ruger/Marlin lever guns and there is nothing more fun to me that shooting a lever gun.
Yes, exactly. The fun of shooting a lever gun is the actual point of a 45-70.
The 45/70 leaves room for a lot of improvement for reloaders.
That was fun. Thanks!
Great content. As many have said once you reload for it then you can really get some performance over what the trapdoor is rated for.
Which the trap door is still a great load for deer and bears in the East
I would like to see a comparison between the 45-70,and 444 Marlin.
This old timer is definitely capable of taking dangerous game, in a modern rifle with some of the premium loads. This cartridge is easily capable of 3,000-3,500 ft-lbs of energy.
I reload 300 grain Hornady HPs with IMR 4198 minimum powder charge. 2300 fps and over 3500 ft.lbs of ME. Painful to shoot. Nothing it won't put down straight away.
Hey Ron, that’s a beautiful 30/06 you’ve got there! I love stainless and walnut!
I never hit a deer with my 45-70 that didn't go down right there and not get up, works everytime
Don’t want to say anything bad about the 4570, I have a marlin cowboy version in 4570. But for hunting I like the 444 marlin better. Plenty of power and I think it shoots a little flatter. Maybe you could make a comparison between the two cartridges.
..."A little flatter" I wanted a 45-70 but when I went down that rathole of building one from specs, I stopped at optics and aborted that mission and bought something completely different solely based on trajectory of the round. There's some things you can overcome and others you cannot. Personally, and I don't mean this as a poke/jab/fight-starter, but that's an obsolete round for what I do or what I want.
I'll keep this in mind for next years log hunting season
I have had a couple of rifles in .45-70,one a Remington rolling block and the other a custom built Martini-Enfield. The rolling block was miserable to shoot, curved steel butt plate and fast drop to the butt stock, just drove it straight down into your shoulder. The Martini was a joy to shoot, roll over cheek piece, recoil pad and Lyman peep sights. A good sturdy action that could take much hotter loads than the trapdoor. From bench rest I was able to get a 5 shot group at just under an inch with a 500 gr bullet.
The crescent butt plate is made to fit your arm right at the shoulder..not on your shoulder like modern shooters are taught, don't tuck your arm in ! Look at 1800's shooter's pictures!
Your face brings me back to a more sane time brother. Lol. I think ill watch and leave the insanity behind for a while and spend time with a man that enjoys the "real world". Hope all is well with you and happy new year !
God bless 🙏
The 44-40 or 44 WCF was introduced with the 1873 Winchester. The 1866 was chambered in the 44 Henry rimfire cartridge. I really enjoy your videos. They are informative and well done.
Ron I really like your videos and your experience. I hunted and reloaded a .45-70 for 12 years. The rifle was an 1895 Marlin lever. It was an early model without the safety and pistol grip. I always got one shot kills and loved hand loading it. I took many deer and one black bear. I would have trusted it in Alaska, which I did, and Africa which I only dreamed of doing,
Ron, I have been a devotee of the 45-70 for 40 years. I took my 1895 Marlin all over the US and Canada. There are three loading levels for the cartridge. The first for the Springfield Trapdoor which was a black powder cartridge then it was loaded with Smokeless Powder at a reduced pressure and velocity. The Remington and Winchester ammo Ron shot was made for the trapdoor. The 1895 and the Henry 45-70 can Drive a 300gn bullet to 2350 fps and is safe for the Marlin and Henry rifles. The third level of power is for the single shot Ruger#1 and #3. I fired a #3 and nearly landed on my ass. Brutal loading for such a light gun. Buffalo Bore has loadings for the 1895 and the Henry. You should take a look see.
Great video Ron. I love my old 30-06 and 12 gauge I got off my grandfather both in great shape for there age. The shotgun is 1950s Remington 870 and the Rifle is a good old bolt action FN 24 chambered in 30-06 from late 40s. Both put a lot of food on the table over the years. Thanks for the great video Ron. Cheers from Canada 🍻
Ron, I think you may have created the funnest and easiest way to split logs. 👍👍
Most expensive way too
I was considering buying a 45-70 at one point. I really couldn't see any advantage over my .450 marlin. I found a great deal on a .458 win mag ( I hand load) .405 grn gas checked lead , 325 jacketed flex tip . Does anything 45-70 could, only, in a beautiful bolt action rifle.
Not a bad buy.
I have a highwall in 45-90. Hard to pass up 520-ish grain bullet with 70gr black powder pushing it to somewhere around 1200ish fps
Different type of shooting. Fun in its own way.
The only advantage is ammo availability. If you handload, 450 marlin and 4570 are basically the same
A 458 is a significant step above the 45-70. But the 1886 will do 45-09, through to 50-110.
The problem with the bolt is that on dangerous game it is shrinking in popularity because the reality is that in self-defense duty, in Africa, the ranges are getting so short, out of deference to the clients and the law, that there is no way to get a second shot off unless one has a Double. Levers might be OK also, certainly faster than bolts, but just not as accepted, even though they were used in Africa as long as they have been in the US, just not used heavily. I suppose, also, they weren't used in the stopping role.
Don’t forget the Leigh bullet in. The underwood ammo as well. They do a great job of splitting the difference between HP and hard cast with both wound change diameter and penetration. Bigger wound channel than HC and more penetration than HP. Great for hunting in areas where something big w8th claws could surprise you and a short range higher velocity shot is needed on short notice…
My first deer rifle was a Marlin 1895 in this caliber. My second deer rifle was a Ruger #3 that I traded the 1895 for in this caliber. My third deer rifle was a Handy Rifle in this caliber.
I figured out I only needed 1 shot
The leverevolution loads from Hornady are a game changer in my opinion. 325 grain moving at 2000 fps is no joke.
Out of my Marlin dark I chronoed it at 1900 fps.
I get 1,900 fps out of my Marlin with 405 JSPs. Elmer Keith got 2,000 fps with 405s in a Winchester 1886 back before you were born. The game hasn't been changed, unless you (incorrectly) think that pointy, short bullets turn your 45-70 into a long range rifle.
@@shawnwells5719 I meant it in because off the shelf, most 400 grain loads are around 1200-1400 fps, Very few off the shelf loads approach what this round can do in a modern firearm.
As others have already mentioned, the 45-70 is incredibly versatile. Potential bullet weights vary from 250gr lead-free to 600gr lead monsters. And as the video demonstrated, you can also load it at a variety of different pressures, from about 1200fps to well over 2000fps with the same bullets. At optimal range, both loadings will kill any animal you can think of, except the very largest of thick-skinned game. It's just a great overall cartridge, and the 150 year old history that comes with it certainly does not diminish the appeal.
The 30-06 has immense versatility too, including shoots long range shots.
some guys even load a round ball with a little unique for small game.
Got to tell you Ron, I am proud to see you shoot that -06! I watched the video all the way through twice, you did not mention what the brand and model that is. That is not a hunting rifle that I would take out in the woods, it is a beautiful, range gun, or cabinet queen, but you shot it! Don't scratch it please, it's simply beautiful!
Hi Ron I love your videos they are full of great information. I really love the 38 55 cartridge too and you can still find it around from time to time although it's obviously not as popular as 45 70
45-70 is my absolute favorite! I have a JM stamped custom Marlin 1895GS That the first owner had at svalbard for Polar bear protection. With handloading bullet and powder selection is when you really fall in love with it. It's just fun, old school usa and works. That being said for long range I'll just my remington 700 7mm rem mag. But for most I want to use my trusty 45-70. It will bring down and stop most animals on earth. Dinosaurs don't think so. At least not big one's. But who knows i might make a video on that. And truly test all bullets and try too make skin and bone Dinosaur thick and give it a try 👌👍🇺🇸🤠
i've shot a lot of whitetails with various 45/70 loads out of my marlin guide gun. i have the same opinion as you. i get a lot more DRT's with the 270, 30/06, etc rounds that i ever did with the 45/70. i love the 45/70 but it is not a dinosaur killer IMO. i will say this, that the 405 factory load will go through a deer and a small tree and into the ground about 18" with very little expansion or deformation. plus that huge muzzle is just plain cool.
The only way to kill a larger animal is to get more penetration
I reworked my 1873 Springfield infantry rifle and converted it into a marksman rifle. I shoot 45/70 - 500gr lead bullet using black powder. FPS is closely the same as a12-gauge rifled slugs FPS. I'm hunting deer in Florida with a max 100 yard shot and an average of 35-yard shot. I like bringing a 150-year-old rifle back to its use in an attempt to reenact a part of the past. You flip up the trapdoor and the spent cartridge comes soaring out of the chamber. Awesome!!!!!
.45-70 in its base form makes a pretty good deer cartridge for timber ranges and will hardly ruin an ounce of meat on its way through. You can warm them up in suitable rifles and take on bigger than deer size game with no problems. Its really a serious dual personality cartridge.
It's hard to bet the 30/06
This really seemed like a 30-06 vs 45-70 video and poo poo 45-70 attitude. All and all thanks for sharing your huntong experiences and opinions, we all have them!
It's hard to polish that turd. It's big, heavy, blunt, and slow. The only stuff worse are black powder muzzle loaders and this is the logical step up from that given technology for the time... Look at the trajectory charts compared to anything modern. Muzzle energy it wins, but at 50 yards, it's losing steam quick compared to that 30-06 and dropping like a rock. It's a brush gun for when you're dead-set on stealing a half-eaten banana out of the hand of an alpha silverback gorilla.
@@scottleggejr in the hands of someone who knows how to shoot it, it is a good mid range cartridge, out to 500yds. Several million buffalo would say that also
@@Bhartrampf Duly noted. I put it in my diary for if I am ever "time-traveled" to the late 1800s and am told to extinct the american buffalo. Until then, I will use something with better ballistics than an olympic shot putter.
@@Bhartrampf Extermination of a species and ethical hunting are not the same. Show me one provable instance of 45-70 taking any big game, let alone bison, at 500 yards. No matter how you cut it, it’s inefficient and out-classes.
@@echofoxtrotwhiskey1595 It all depends on what you're doing with it. Hundreds of Alaska guides aren't carrying 45-70 for the nostalgia. They are not as flat shooting as an 06 but hit much harder, are faster to handle, faster follow up shots and generally hold more ammo.
this mans voice, enthusiasm , and kind spirit make me feel like i just went to therapy
Used my 45/70 with a 300 gr XTP last week to drop a mature whitetail buck in its tracks. Classic.
Ron, I really enjoy your posts but I'm at a loss to see what you were trying to prove, it looks like apples and oranges to me.
I understand factory loads for the 45.70 are inherently low for safety and indemnity reasons, however I reload for my 45.70 and I use them next to hunters using 30.06 and .300WM and I have the emphatic proof that a 300gn flat nose soft point is head and shoulders ahead of theses .30 cal on big pigs and water buffalo in Australia's Northern Territory,
In fact I'd back my 45.70 to stop any carbon based life form short of a charging cape buffalo or bull elephant, mainly because I've never hunted them. Look forward to seeing your next post.
With proper loading and a heavy bullet? yes it is, Elmer proved that.
People get confused when they use toooooo light a bullet on large to medium game, coupled with poor shot placement, and they watch their wild boar run away after being hit. then they begin their attack on the worthless 45-70.
Ive seen guys use a 45-70 with 300 gr. bullet on wild hog, pull their shot, and hit the shoulder blade, then watch the hog run off on three legs.
Elmer Keith wrote about shooting Elk with an old BP cartridge with 500 gr. bullet, perfect heart/lung shot.
Elk was still able to run off, but not very far.
I use 350 grain bullets hand loaded at around 2000fps in my Ruger No1 which is a fairly stout load. Just love that rifle for deer in woodland situations here in the UK.
Some of us use longer barrels so the numbers will be different. We also use heavier bullets. Try a 500-grain bullet out of a 32" to 34" barrel.
Cool cartridge but from what ive seen honestly 30-06 seems to hit alot harder.
Exactly, the 30-06 is hands down a better big game cartridge.
No fun to shoot in a light lever gun....thats for sure.
Ron - i've been watching your AR cartridge videos. Been looking for an AR for deer/hogs up to 200/300 yds tops. I have a long range bolt, but pain to carry in the woods. Anyways, i was set on 300blk but then discoverd the 300 Ham'r. On paper this beats the 30-30. Also, 400 fps more than the blackout. Seems like ol' Bill Wilson finally came up with modern 30-30 AR. Would love to see/hear your review to confirm my thoughts on the 300 Ham'r.
You would probably be better off going with 308 for that distance plus ammo is easy to find
If you Prefer Semi Auto plenty up to 45, Me a BLR in 358 Win or a 308 and can get subsonic or down reload with 30-30 bullets, Light fast and sleek
6.5 grendel, or maybe 6.8spc would likely fit the bill, not sure on how big the deer you're planning on taking are, but both are good choices. 6.5 grendel with a 123 sst @ 2450 (18") has just over 1k ft-lbs and drops 16" with a 200yd zero it is within 3" of poi from 0 to 250, with a lower velocity of 2250 (12") you keep 850 ft-lbs at 300, and with the same zero you'll be withing 3" out to 230, and 9 more inches at 300. I know comparatively less about the 6.8 spc but it should be comparable, maybe harder to find ammo local if you don't reload, but if you do it can hold higher pressure due to a stronger bolt. I'm seeing it fall slightly behind the grendel ballistically with a 120 sst @2450, but that's from a 16" barrel so it likely equals out. 300blk definitely isn't my first choice for 300yds and 300hamr is better, but the grendel or spc will buck wind better ( 15mph 3 o'clock wind has grendel drift @3.8 moa vs 4.5 for the spc @300yds) the hamr with a 125 speer tnt will be about the same energy as the spc with more drift at 300 (5.2moa) and 4.6 with a 150 sst. Essentially you have similar performance number wise, you can pick your diameter, and make a choice. In my opinion grendel is a really good choice, it bucks wind really well and also does not lose much performance from shorter barrels, if you're married to 30 cal then hamr, if not then grendel is a good choice. Full disclosure I don't have any real experience with the hamr or the spc, only regurgitating info from forums and ballistic calculators, but the grendel is a favorite.
@@drakeslocum2564 short range. Looking for light, handy, small package deer rifle. Think lever action that is not a lever action. AR in 300 Ham'r seems to fit the bill.
@@WillyK51 dont care about subsonic. And dont care for a lever action.
Awesome… thanks buddy…
Fun way to split firewood. Thanks for the video, entertaining as always.
You’re missing how the 45-70 actually spent all of its energy in the target, vs the 06 passing through only spending some in the target.
That log might have stopped the 45/70 but trust me it will definitely pass through any deer or hog you use it on. And it great on moose elk and bear.
Here in Alaska, my Marlin GBL is stuffed with 430 grain hard casts. About 1800fps with 3,600 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle. A brute at both ends.
I have a custom Ruger number 3 , Barrel is only 16 inches including the muzzle brake. So actual barrel is about 13.5 inches. I drive a 300 grain hollowpoint out at a warm 2400 fps. It's my favourite Aussie Scrub rifle
The modern full power loads for 45-70 are really impressive. In comparison to a 30-06 you lose distance with the 45-70 of course, but you gain cross sectional density which is of importance when trying to get a deer size animal to drop in its tracks.
True. But your forgetting about hydro dynamic shock damage.
@@Ron-Swanson A 250gr bullet going 2100fps will be more than enough hydro-static shock.
@@JoeZelensky you would get way more at 3000 with a rapid expanding bullet
@@Ron-Swanson or if you wanna play idiot games I could use a 220 Swift and shoot a bullet over 4000fps.
That hydro static shock isn't as important as you think. Dumping all your energy into the vitals is though.
My new go to hunting rifle...2 wt so far and outstanding results. I have never had such incredible blood trails.
Great video Mr.Spomer
Alaska isnt part of canada. Alaska is part of the u.s.a. Get it right.
Reason why he says Alaska and North country of Canada is cause if you ever look at a map, Alaska butts up against the Canadian Providence of Yukon. That's why Alaskan moose and Yukon moose are the same thing just ones in Alaska and ones in the Yukon part of Canada.
@joshualake4882 to be nitpicky,Yukon is a territory not a province
@@DisturbedLunatic22 true but still right next to Alaska
I have been saving for one Ron, thank you 🙏🇺🇸🗽
These loads are factory loads which are loaded for other 45-70 like the falling block & the drop blocks get hand loads & you'll get faster velosty and the heavy weight bullet still hits harder
I use those same Remington cartridges in my H&R handi rifle for deer and they do great for me. What I like about them is that they don’t bloody up the meat because they’re moving so slow. I just get a half to three quarter inch hole through the lungs and they either drop where they stand or they may run a little bit but never very far. But I hunt in thick woods and cut over and rarely get more than a eighty yard shot.
Thanks!
Splitting fire wood, Ron Spomer style. 😁
exactly Rob.. reloading the 45-70 creates a whole different beast. 45-70 through 45-120 become just as powerful as the British big game cartridges. I load my 45-90 exactly the same as .458 winmag
Also, is much more affordable than many of the British cartridge/rifle combos.
Ron, 444 gets my vote as a better deer cartridge for many reasons, but this video was oddly timed.
Over the last month a video concerning the 444 along with several comments supporting the cartridge were attacked by 45-70 fanatics. Both rounds are inherently similar and fill the same niche, but there does seem to be something that causes 45-70 fanatics to feel personally offended if someone does not bow down to the statue that is their cartridge.
As for me, to those who quietly sit back and enjoy using it, I'm happy to see guys who are getting into shooting more traditional firearms and learning to have an appreciation for wood and steel instead of plastic and aluminum.
Thank you for the video, and your final send off comments that gave me a chuckle. Somewhere out there someone is tearing out their hair screaming because you said you've never "been blown away" by the 45-70. Happy new year, stay healthy, and keep shooting straight.