Data exposed Picard's unconscious bias (one that he wasn't aware of himself) against Data precisely because Data doesn't fit Picard's narrow concept of what being human is. IF it were ANY other member of the crew, Picard wouldn't even entertain the proposal from Maddux, even for a second. IF Picard regards Data as a valued member of his crew, then Picard was discriminating AGAINST Data in treating him differently than he would ANY OTHER member of his crew.
@@victorpradha9946 probably the only time in my entire life I have heard the term "unconscious bias" and believed its accuracy in describing the situation
Starfleet lost any possible grounds to claim Data as a piece of mechanical equipment when they accepted Data's voluntarily-submitted application to Starfleet Academy. At that moment they acknowledged his status as a sentient being with free will. You don't accept applications from appliances, you just buy them. To accept his application and later declare that he is Starfleet property would set an immensely dangerous precedent that any other being could have their personhood revoked as well.
@@goneyon: It's not _entirely_ that cut-and-dried; for instance, someone who is mentally incompetent can have their right to self-determination revoked without it being considered slavery, because it is demonstrably in their best interest; and someone who is in a permanent vegetative state is legally no longer a person and can be disconnected from life support upon medical advice without it being considered murder. But yes, for the purposes of a sentient, conscious, competent individual, revoking personhood is enslavement.
Try that argument in Britain where it is now law that, when you die, your organs will automatically be available for transplant - this changing the relationship between the state and the citizen to that of owner and possession.
@@johnhill6956: 1) There is no contradiction. After you die you are no longer legally a person. This is the law almost everywhere, including in the USA. 2) You are exaggerating. You are not forced to be an organ donor in the UK. You can opt out if you want to. The law simply says that anyone who hasn't opted-out is an organ donor by default. Better than the opt-in system we have in the USA, where millions of usable organs go to waste because the people who were born with them never gave any thought to what would happen to their bodies after they die.
He tried so hard to find some way to support Star Fleet's decision, and the moment he sees the justification break down he's so upset at what they're trying to force happen and what he allowed to reach one of his officers.
@@cheeseyoger I don't think he's angry at them here. He's angry at himself. He can sympathize with them because he agreed with them up until this conversation with Data. He'd be quite the hypocrite to be angry at them.
It's an interesting scene also because it shows how quickly Picard can be reasoned with. Give him a solid line of logic, and he concedes and is done with the conversation. Shows a lot of class.
@@stclairstclair That's idiotic; Star Trek was always in your face with Secular Humanism and generally advocated liberalism. Get your fascist crap out of here. The reason why Nu Trek sucks has nothing to do with politics (if anything it's lacking the humanism and liberalism at the core of Trek; this episode in particular). Nu Trek sucks because the writing is terrible and the show runners have made a conscious effort to destroy the characters. I get that your Redpill bullshit pushes Picard as a strong male figure (he is) but he is at his core a secular humanist and is basically the antithesis of your Redpill crap and crypto facism you lot are pushing.
P L, The only difference between what you said and them simply stating "SJWs took out all the things Gene stood for" (e.g., subtle yet impactful messages, liberalism, humanism, optimism, and good writing above all else) is that they like saying "SJW" a lot and you like saying "fascist" a lot. Honestly, I get that saying "fascist" makes it feel like you're standing up to an evil, powerful foe, but you're really just namecalling to emotionally insulate yourself from your interlocutor so you may more readily abuse them without feeling pangs of guilt (or at least, cognitive dissonance when lashing out with ad hominems and snap judgements while self-defining as a liberal, reasonable individual, unlike those backward, brutish alt-right trolls who just go around... doing what you're doing... but in fewer, smaller words, and with a slightly different set of jargon)
Picard then goes on to force Data to submit to the procedure AND propose that all Starfleet personnel be required to have their eyes replaced with cybernetic implants.
Q: Family Guy? That centuries old, still running, television show? They made quite the mockery of Picards adventures back in the day *laughs a dull cackle*
Picard tried to convince himself that Maddox's argument was reasonable. To me, this humanizes Picard. Picard is in a tight spot and convinces himself that he should compromise on what he knows is the right thing to do. In fifteen seconds, Data destroyed Picard's illusions. Picard is smart enough to know he's beaten, and you can tell he's disappointed in himself for asking Data to compromise on the first place. Brilliant scene and acting.
I think Picard was drawing upon Data's expertise in an area he lacked, as any good officer would. Picard knew it was wrong, but was finding himself swayed by the pro argument, and was hoping Data would offer an effective con.
indeed, he had felt obligated by his starfleet position to take that approach, but he felt disgusted at himself for missing the morality of his decision. TNG had quite a few episodes that were extremely well written and acted. the current star trek is filled with bad writing but still good acting. just needs more of the morality based episodes where you as the viewer yourself can learn something. make it seem this way is right knowing the viewer will agree and then bashing it truthfully and heartfelt. seems this is missing in todays writers...nobody wants to take a chance at backlash. *EDIT* makes more sense as the seasons go on that picard continuously learns to disobey starfleet...thats been a constant in the star trek universe...star fleet is not perfect and ANY command should be put up to morality based judgement and not just obeyed freely.
Exactly how I always saw it. Always loved this scene. The dramatic score drops right where Picards thin attempt falls apart and he is mad at himself for compromising.
There are many episodes of this show where after the credits roll, you feel elevated, nobler, kinder, more compassionate than you did before. You feel like you weren't just entertained, you feel more human. I struggle to think of an example of a contemporary television program that does this.
@@simsfamily298 theres 5 minues of sci-fi in Discovery mixed in with 30 minutes of people telling each other that its okay to be scared and lets be scared together!
to be honest, i'd say Brent Spiner's portrayal of the android and Starfleet officer, Lt. Cmd. "Data" is in the top20 character executions/compositions ever put on tape. little shit makes me cry all the time.
So the argument is: - Picard postulates the benefit to Starfleet (every Starfleet ship could have itself a Data) that would come from mandating the compromise of Data's sentient rights. - Data postulates the benefit to Starfleet (every Starfleet ship could have officers with Gordi-eyes) that would come from mandating the compromise of every human officer's sentient rights. Data essentially asks: Why is only he under potential mandate to have his rights as a sentient being given up, and not all human officers? Precisely because he is not human. Human rights must therefore be more valuable than non-human rights in Picard's postulate. Picard had not recognized the degree of his own bias here, and sits humbled and in shame. I thought it was fantastic how the debate eventually came down not to the logical semantics of evaluating sentient life, but to empathy: Do we want to re-institute slavery? [Enjoyed writing out this argument for myself to understand it, hope it helps others understand]
Hah! Well, yeah, I had to. Without the context of the full episode it was pretty hard to follow the argument. I watched this episode a while ago, and I don't remember missing a beat, exactly... I love TNG and am only now on season 3, but some of the conversations are a bit too abrupt to easily follow.
is this idiot serious right now? this is star trek, theres a lot more than humans...so no there is no ''human rights'' its ''sentient rights'' and data is sentient so GO FUCK YOUR SELF
He wasn't owned, he was swayed by logic, reason, and decency. This show is all class, if only our level of day to day communication could evolve to this..
When I was a kid seeing this scene I didn’t understand Picards disappointment. I thought he was mad at Data. See it again now. I realize he was mad at himself. There is too much ego in todays discussions. People that refuse to back down, simply out of spite or pride. A failing that I myself am guilty of. I too hope we can evolve to this level of dialogue, but I fear at a species level, it will get worse before it gets better.
"The Measure of a Man" was one of Star Trek's perfect episodes. It's everything Star Trek was capable of being. It's everything Gene Roddenberry hoped his series could be. It not only entertained, but made us think and feel and contemplate our own morality. Without any sci-fi battles with enemy ships and phasers and aliens... we couldn't tear our eyes away from the spectacle of a life-or-death trial of one of our most beloved characters. Rights. Slavery. Our own humanity. Respect. Friendship. It was all here.
@@rikk319 A more modernized and popular version of the old Asimov tale. Of countless robot tales. I don't think _Measure of a Man_ told the old tale as well, and I don't think it had any ideas or statements which were at all new sci-fi ... but it did reach a wider audience who consider what it said quite profound and memorable.
And the end, Picard is not proud nor angry, but extremely ashamed that he hadn't considered the problem in terms of dealing with a conscious being. For that, he is too ashamed to look Data in the eye, angry only at himself. Brilliant acting.
My biggest complaint with this episode was that Starfleet wanted to treat Data like property but, even if they had succeeded in proving that he _is,_ he's not _their_ property. They didn't create him, they didn't even fund the research that went into building him. Plus, they didn't just put him into service, he applied to Starfleet, and he attended and graduated from Starfleet Academy. By allowing him to do all that, they implicitly accepted that he was his own being and not their property.
@Jeremiah Boyd: An embryo is human, but not a person. It cannot exist without continuous life-support, and it only has the potential to gain more potential. An embryo is only one step above a brain-dead body existing in permanent vegetative state, which also cannot live without continuous life-support. Both are far removed from being a self-sustaining person with consciousness, memories, knowledge, and a web of relationships that would suffer without their presence. Even as a father of a son whom I love, I still accept that there was a time months before he was born when I would've prioritized my girlfriend's life and health if that decision had needed to be made.
I love how Picard is always shown as being able to change his mind or be convinced away from his original thinking when evidence is presented or a good argument is made. The fact that he doesn't always start out on the right side of an issue is one of the best aspects of the character.
@@wesleyorange8133 Kirk wasn't always right or headstrong and was swayed by Spock and Bones all the time. One of my favorite parts of Wrath of Khan was when Savik spoke up about security regs while Spock and Kirk ignored her which was how Khan crippled the Enterprise. Once they escaped Kirk turned to Savik and told her to keep on quoting every regulation she wants. The whole point of WoK was that Khan ignored his followers and trusted in his intellect while Kirk relied on his crew and trusted their experience. Kirk didn't beat Khan; the entire Enterprise working together beat Khan.
jarret45 Yea, every time he took over except on best of both worlds he fucked up. includding that ferengi invasion on the enterprise D where he allow a galaxy class be taken down by two bop commanded by lame ferengis
He was owned, for a character with values, ethics and philosophical awareness like Picard, his own bias being made so clear was probably about as crushing a blow as one could deliver. But like you say, it takes Picard about a second to process this and realise his mistake and he's man enough to not just admit it but fight against his own, former, position.
Picard does it AGAIN to Data when he, at first, fails to give Data a command of his own when the Federation erects a blockade from Romulan space into Klingon Territory to stop (what was theorized at the time to be) covert Romulan supply chains to the Duras family to aid them in their fight against Gowron's forces in the Klngon civil war after Gowron's instillation as the Supreme Chancellor of the Klingon Empire. Data highlights how as next in line after 1st officer Commander Riker, Data should have been given his own command. Data later proved indispensable in that capacity as he successfully exposed (by a perfectly non-violent way too) active Romulan interference (attempting to aid the Duras family) in the Klingon civil war.
This is a perfect example of how music can make all the difference in a scene. Picard's facial expression barely changes, but you know the exact moment he changed his mind by the music.
Cut yourself some slack. Most of the dialogue was written over the course of a few days, we have mere moments to speak our voice into history. As long as you never allow weakness or a lack of integrity into your speech, you will be as unstoppable as you can possibly be. If you cannot speak from a position of strength, at least never allow yourself to speak from a position of weakness. Stay strong.
Well, you can start reading more with advanced material containing complex vocabulary, which will make you seem more smart if used correctly, pompous if not. And writing helps a lot. Writing your own words and reading others will reinforce good habits for formulating good sentence structure, and will help you to find things to say when you have trouble formulating a natural conversation on your own. Perhaps start thinking about conversations and sentences before hand, and write them out and pratice them. Even if you never use them, the practice will help a lot.
Yes... i can totally see that happening. "What if there is a possibility that many more beings like yourself can be constructed?" "What if you had hair?" "-_- .... that'll be all mr. data"
Someone asked this of Gene Roddenberry - "By the 24th Century, won't baldness have been cured?" The reply was a classic humanist one, typical of the vision of how humanity could grow, that Gene put forward with Trek: "Bald? By the 24th Century, nobody will care."
Keep in mind that during this entire episode where Starfleet is debating whether or not to conduct experiments on Data and possibly kill him, he has the ability to single-handedly take over the entire ship and hold everyone prisoner. The only reason this court case happens, is because he allows it. It really illustrates Datas extreme respect for due process, even when he disagrees with the outcome.
It's questionable if "respect for due process" is the reason for that and not his complete lack of instinctual fear and the associated violent responses. You have to remember Data is not human or any other type of animal. If they forced him then he would submit and I have no reason to believe otherwise, as he was likely programmed to do under such circumstances.
@@JonesCrimson Sure, he doesn't have emotions. But he want to avoid being experimented on, and tries to leave by quitting his job. So he has a goal, and he takes every legal action available to achieve that goal. That's choices that he makes, and I don't think we are meant think he is just a slave of his programming and couldn't have made different choices if he wanted to. In the episode where Data becomes the captain of a different ship, he disobeys a direct order and takes the punishment for that, because he believed he was doing the right thing.
In an universe like ours, where every smallest event is deterministic, it's dumb to deprecate anything/anyone by saying that it's a matter of programming. It's enough to know and always remember consciously that free will is only an illusion. Instinct tells everyone that by changing one little detail in the past, it's possible to alter the future. Everyone instinctively agrees with that, but nearly everyone fails to consciously acknowledge that idea of changing the future by changing the past assumes definitely that there's no such thing as free will in those people who are meant to act accordingly to the change in the past by repeating every thought, decision and action, which aren't altered by the change in the past. The fact that free will is only an illusion is easy to understand but extremely hard to accept. Ego works that way.
@@biglightball We learned almost 100 years ago that the universe is not deterministic. See quantum mechanics. The universe itself does not know what will happen next.
When i was watching other Tv shows, i remember seeing the good guy beating someone else because they have been rude or just to make a scene. In star trek you learn no matter violence isn't the answer. So now i try to stay calm in every situation. Thanks to star trek.
@@busTedOaS Are you sure you have. Picard originally is bending over backwards to oblige Starfleet like a good captain is want to do. He still hadn't formally weighed in. During his discussion with Data, which exposes Picard's bias against Data because he isn't human by any traditional definition, Data points out how Picard would never subject any other member of his crew to such treatment. This is when the light bulb goes off in Picard's head about how disloyal he was being to his own crew that are under his command and protection. That's when Picard digs in on defending Data! Picard realized that his loyalty by means of obedience to Starfleet undercut the "rights" of his own crew member. The ending of the episode underscores Picard's realization about "rights"!
@@victorpradha9946 Just rewatched it and you are 100% right. Picard actually does change his opinion here. I completely misremembered how the episode continued. Sorry, and thank you for pointing it out!
Good point. I'm reminded of Picard's reaction when Hugh says "I will not". There, Picard immediately recognises that Hugh has become a sentient individual. On another note, I would have loved a scene or two between Data and Hugh. I could imagine Data standing up for Hugh's rights, just as he did for the Exo-Comps.
@Amirus True, the bigger challenge is in determining independent thought and no just preprogrammed responses. A better Turing test would be to offer an artificial intelligence multiple choices without a practical purpose to reduce the chance of a preprogrammed response, or even an automatic mathematical calculation. Then question the AI as to why it made the choice to rule out random selection. That said, ethical protocol for dealing with emergent intelligence should be well established before said intelligence actually emerges.
I am reminded of the 2011 Planet of the Apes movie. Caesar's first word is "no." No to the mistreatment, no to the cage, no to being property, no to everything the humans are doing. Perfect moment.
I love this Picard not because he is always right and perfect, but because of the fact that he never hesitates to consider that he is on the wrong. He is quick to apologize and he has no ego
Data's argument hit Picard where he lived. And Data was correct. It was because Data was not human. We all have prejudices. The wise ones among us are the ones who recognize that prejudice and ruthlessly reject it, as Picard did in this episode.
My biggest complaint with this episode was that Starfleet wanted to treat Data like property but, even if they had succeeded in proving that he is, he's not their property. They didn't create him, they didn't even fund the research that went into building him. Plus, they didn't just put him into service, he applied to Starfleet, and he attended and graduated from Starfleet Academy. By allowing him to do all that, they implicitly accepted that he was his own being and not their property.
I think this hit Picard because for all his (and frankly Roddenberry's) blustering about how "evolved" humans are in the 24th century we still have our bias and believe that the only way for a creature to be considered sentient is for it to be like us
@@TheSilverPhoenix100 Star Trek uses the word 'sentient' wrongly. Every animate life form on this planet is sentient. Sentient means to be able to feel. Even dogs are sentient. The word they should be using is 'sapient'. Which means to be able to intelligently converse with others
@@jonahkaun891 No bias here. Just stating facts and used dogs as an example. I suppose had I said "Even zebras are sentient, you would think I have a strange bias against zebras.
In this particular case there is a big difference. Data is way more than just a computer. He is sentient, so he should be treated like a person, not an object.
Da Name Hypothetically, if our goal as sentient beings were to be to minimize suffering in sentient beings, then would giving rights to sentient brings to prevent or minimize their suffering be a good thing to do?
We will become the Borg though, the process is well and truly in motion. Becoming interconnected at more and more levels until the self eventually means nothing.
"The Measure of a Man" was one my favorite episodes in the whole Star Trek pantheon. I loved Riker's and Picard's courtroom arguments and the way Data comforted Riker, who felt guilty, later.
When picard stands for data in the court room on the ship, his line "Now tell me, Commander, what is Data?" "I don't understand." "What is he?" "A machine!" "Is he? Are you sure?" "Yes!" "You see he's met two of your three criteria for sentience, so what if he meets the third, consciousness, in even the smallest degree? What is he then? I don't know, do you? (to Riker) Do you? (to Phillipa) Do you?" This line makes me shiver, powerful as hell!
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@@XavierBetoN Cyberpicard who'll still get old and die. I mean that sucks as far as trade-offs go. Also why didn't the "TotallyNotACopyofTheRocinante" have fwippy swippy post-production holograms instead of the hard-light holograms we've seen since TNG? I mean where's the crew-individual holconsoles instead?
I remember this scene being Cpt. Picard, feeling defeated, trying to get Data to submit to something even he did not morally agree with (accentuated with him opening the door almost manually rather than a simple 'come in'). Am I remembering this scene incorrectly?
None of the biological lifeforms ever posed a security risk hey ;) (how many times did Data save everyone by not being a lame weakling who can't even breath poison?)
The wording here is so meaningful. Picard didn't tell Data he was dismissed, just "that will be all". It was a concession of defeat rather than a command of authority.
I think the basic story was flawed because Data was accepted at the Academy, graduated with honors and granted a commission. That implies that like any other Starfleet officer he was aware of himself and his responsiblies. If he isn't a fully self aware being, why was this allowed? Data's question should have been, "If I do not have the same rights as any other member of this crew, why am I here and in this uniform?"
Grace Skerp The same thought and questions happened when they gave a ship to Data to command during a mission. Which btw turned out to save their asses and Data gets to pwn another fool that thinks they can talk to him how ever. Not saying the story is flawed I mean they talk about your question specifically when wondering if they should give Data a ship to command. And it turns out not giving him a ship(if he was a human) would be a slap in the face thus they gave him a ship(for that mission).
+Grace Skerp Yes, he could have said that. But what he said was actually a lot more powerful. He said what you said above, just not in those words. He also added the fact that if he were human, his rights would have never been questioned in the first place.
+ssjwes Well stated. Any time Data is given command, he has to pwn someone to get it or convince them he is the right choice for the job or to treat him with respect. I believe it is an analogy to racism. He has to fight for everything as if he has no rights. Even with members of his own crew. (Such as Worf treating him disrespectfully as a captain. Worf would have never treated another captain that way.)
Yeah, that was the big issue for me. His admittance into the Academy was predicated on Starfleet's acceptance that he was a sentient being. So, Maddox would've been at a disadvantage, since he'd have to argue that his initial acceptance into the Academy was a mistake (and, to a lesser extent, his subsequent promotions). The burden of proof should've been on Maddox, not Data. .... And, actually, if the ruling had been made in Maddox's favor, that would've potentially caused a lot of other bureaucratic headaches. Essentially every order he ever gave in his entire career would now be invalid. That could potentially cause some serious problems
One thing that makes this episode great is that Data is changing the way both Picard and the audience look at him. Season 1 was Data at his most robotic, that's how both the audience and his crewmates saw him.
+kylefer Forthwith and HENCEFORTH!! Whenever anyone pwns anyone with Star Trek references...it shall be known as being "Trekt!". So sayeth the Lord of Slag.
+LordSlag After seeing your comment, do you know that I have actually started using this word "TREKT!!!" captain😂😂😀😀 People don't get the reference many times but for me it's fun 👹😎
Measure of a Man was probably THE episode that made me like TNG. It had been limping along with kinda meh at best episodes. I was waiting for them to give me something that made the characters more... real? Not sure how else to put it. Then this episode came along and asked the perfect question, and put our central characters in the middle of giving us an answer.
This is one of my all-time favorite scenes, for both Data and Picard actually, but especially Picard - this scene so encapsulates one of my favorite character traits of his. It’s the quiet dignity with which he acknowledges His defeat. And yes, that is what we have here. Picard always has the higher moral standard, the better answer, and the wiser wisdom (for the most part anyway) In most of these little heart-to-heart conversations we see throughout TNG. It is rare indeed when the card does not have an answer for a point made in a conversation. Now while some, and indeed while many who hold positions of power, will rarely if ever acknowledge they are incorrect or that they have made a mistake - and in fact many will deflect from the situation with extreme anger and hostility - Picard here does what he rarely ever does, he (even if slightly) HANGS HIS HEAD, and has no reply; rare indeed. He then quietly dismisses Data. #DATA also knows the card well enough to understand, while this may be a bit of Headcanon, I think he conveys that ever so slightly with his body language. Preserving his dignity and the dignity of the office, while simultaneously always owning his own shit = gangsta
'I find myself in complete agreement with that assessment of the situation, sir'. Wonderful writing! Lesser script writers would have had Data saying 'Yes sir'.
Interesting fact: Geordi's visor is not superior to human eyes, just different. He gains some means of perception and loses others. (IIRC the later visorless eyes were more advanced and might have enabled normal human sight plus the enhancements, but that was after this scene.)
+Dᴏᴡʟᴘʜɪɴ I always wondered about Data saying that line since it's not accurate for the reasons you state. But maybe Data wouldn't understand why his comment is not accurate since he doesn't have human eyes either.
+Dᴏᴡʟᴘʜɪɴ Perhaps he means it's superior in a practical sense, for a Star Fleet officer or space traveler in general; though not as aesthetically pleasing (as Geordi laments on a few occasions, never being able to see a rainbow being an example), being able to see the upper EM-spectrum may be more useful.
Such a brilliant episode. Maddox wanted to study Data and make more beings like him. The repercussions is definitely felt in the events leading up to season one of Picard.
Picard's attempt to rationalize Maddox's intentions was very cooly demolished with a single question. Data is completely right, and Starfleet and Maddox are completely in the wrong. Starfleet acknowledged Data's sentience when they accepted his Academy application.
the part that really makes this exchange hurt is that data DOES want more androids like him and picard KNOWS that - it's just that, under these circumstances, data knows it would lead to disaster
I fear we will never get Trek back to this. A perfect episode that is philosophical and deep and the best that Star Trek has to offer. Today it is Cpt. Burnham at the Helm of the Star Destroyer Discovery blasting through cgi spectacles without any substance.
Ironically, I think there are some amazing characters and deep issues at play in the unfortunately acronymed "STD." Capt. Burnham fairly convincingly displays a lot of the symptoms of borderline personality disorder, a disorder of immaturity, where her relationships are superficial and overly dependent, and her life is constantly in crisis as she tries to project the chaos of her own inadequate childhood on the world around her. The true tragedy of STD is that instead of more mature characters helping Burnham to see the cognitive errors she is making in overly dramatizing everything she runs into, the show bizarrely celebrates her immaturity, and mind-blowingly promotes a reckless, immature, emotionally stunted individual to be in charge of everyone else. Its worse than being unhelpful; the show actively promotes poor ways of coping with the world. The TNG equivalent would be if they fired Picard and put Wesley in charge of running the ship, and then the entire crew had personality transplants and went "yeah that was a good idea, okay Wesley teach us how to be adults!"
It's amazing how our own computer screens these days are way thinner than those represented in TNG universe. They correctly predicted touch-technology, though but not that absurdly large and ridiculously-shaped 'keyboard' that Picard uses in the opening of this scene.
You know Picard is torn. He values Data as a crewmember and friend, yet he also wants the best for Starfleet and the Federation. And Data reminded him of unpleasant reality.
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I think at that moment Picard was more mad at himself for entertaining the idea than Data for calling him out.
Conflicted. Because he can see both sides.
@@julietfischer5056 conflicted at first. Not so much after he realized his error when Data questioned him.
Data exposed Picard's unconscious bias (one that he wasn't aware of himself) against Data precisely because Data doesn't fit Picard's narrow concept of what being human is. IF it were ANY other member of the crew, Picard wouldn't even entertain the proposal from Maddux, even for a second. IF Picard regards Data as a valued member of his crew, then Picard was discriminating AGAINST Data in treating him differently than he would ANY OTHER member of his crew.
@@victorpradha9946 probably the only time in my entire life I have heard the term "unconscious bias" and believed its accuracy in describing the situation
that was of course exactly why picard was pissed. he was pissed at himself. fantastic show...... writing like this doesnt exist anymore.
Starfleet lost any possible grounds to claim Data as a piece of mechanical equipment when they accepted Data's voluntarily-submitted application to Starfleet Academy. At that moment they acknowledged his status as a sentient being with free will. You don't accept applications from appliances, you just buy them. To accept his application and later declare that he is Starfleet property would set an immensely dangerous precedent that any other being could have their personhood revoked as well.
@@goneyon: It's not _entirely_ that cut-and-dried; for instance, someone who is mentally incompetent can have their right to self-determination revoked without it being considered slavery, because it is demonstrably in their best interest; and someone who is in a permanent vegetative state is legally no longer a person and can be disconnected from life support upon medical advice without it being considered murder. But yes, for the purposes of a sentient, conscious, competent individual, revoking personhood is enslavement.
Superb commentary. ❤❤❤❤
Try that argument in Britain where it is now law that, when you die, your organs will automatically be available for transplant - this changing the relationship between the state and the citizen to that of owner and possession.
@@johnhill6956: 1) There is no contradiction. After you die you are no longer legally a person. This is the law almost everywhere, including in the USA.
2) You are exaggerating. You are not forced to be an organ donor in the UK. You can opt out if you want to. The law simply says that anyone who hasn't opted-out is an organ donor by default. Better than the opt-in system we have in the USA, where millions of usable organs go to waste because the people who were born with them never gave any thought to what would happen to their bodies after they die.
@@deusexaethera Exactly. I wish it were that way in Canada. If I'm dead, use all the spare parts from me that you can salvage!
I love how utterly disgusted Picard is with himself for even entertaining the idea. Completely in character and a great moment.
And it's amazing that without a single word Patrick Stewart portrayed how deeply ashamed Picard was with himself for what he just did.
He tried so hard to find some way to support Star Fleet's decision, and the moment he sees the justification break down he's so upset at what they're trying to force happen and what he allowed to reach one of his officers.
Starfleet is a government and they act like one.
@@cheeseyoger I don't think he's angry at them here. He's angry at himself. He can sympathize with them because he agreed with them up until this conversation with Data. He'd be quite the hypocrite to be angry at them.
It's an interesting scene also because it shows how quickly Picard can be reasoned with. Give him a solid line of logic, and he concedes and is done with the conversation. Shows a lot of class.
Too bad all that Gene wanted has now been removed with the last two series. SJW prevail!
@@stclairstclair Gene was a sjw
thecianinator True, But he didn't stick it in my donkey and break it off.
@@stclairstclair That's idiotic; Star Trek was always in your face with Secular Humanism and generally advocated liberalism. Get your fascist crap out of here. The reason why Nu Trek sucks has nothing to do with politics (if anything it's lacking the humanism and liberalism at the core of Trek; this episode in particular). Nu Trek sucks because the writing is terrible and the show runners have made a conscious effort to destroy the characters. I get that your Redpill bullshit pushes Picard as a strong male figure (he is) but he is at his core a secular humanist and is basically the antithesis of your Redpill crap and crypto facism you lot are pushing.
P L, The only difference between what you said and them simply stating "SJWs took out all the things Gene stood for" (e.g., subtle yet impactful messages, liberalism, humanism, optimism, and good writing above all else) is that they like saying "SJW" a lot and you like saying "fascist" a lot.
Honestly, I get that saying "fascist" makes it feel like you're standing up to an evil, powerful foe, but you're really just namecalling to emotionally insulate yourself from your interlocutor so you may more readily abuse them without feeling pangs of guilt (or at least, cognitive dissonance when lashing out with ad hominems and snap judgements while self-defining as a liberal, reasonable individual, unlike those backward, brutish alt-right trolls who just go around... doing what you're doing... but in fewer, smaller words, and with a slightly different set of jargon)
Picard then goes on to force Data to submit to the procedure AND propose that all Starfleet personnel be required to have their eyes replaced with cybernetic implants.
rofl....in a parallel universe, that is probably exactly how it concluded!
Q: *Gets out notepad and keeps reading comments...*
And then, Picard gets fired and replaced by a robot.
Q: Family Guy? That centuries old, still running, television show? They made quite the mockery of Picards adventures back in the day *laughs a dull cackle*
hilarious!
Picard tried to convince himself that Maddox's argument was reasonable. To me, this humanizes Picard. Picard is in a tight spot and convinces himself that he should compromise on what he knows is the right thing to do. In fifteen seconds, Data destroyed Picard's illusions. Picard is smart enough to know he's beaten, and you can tell he's disappointed in himself for asking Data to compromise on the first place. Brilliant scene and acting.
I never noticed it was this deep thank u 🙏 I keep falling deeper cause of ppl like u
I always thought he just felt bad for data
I think Picard was drawing upon Data's expertise in an area he lacked, as any good officer would. Picard knew it was wrong, but was finding himself swayed by the pro argument, and was hoping Data would offer an effective con.
indeed, he had felt obligated by his starfleet position to take that approach, but he felt disgusted at himself for missing the morality of his decision.
TNG had quite a few episodes that were extremely well written and acted. the current star trek is filled with bad writing but still good acting. just needs more of the morality based episodes where you as the viewer yourself can learn something. make it seem this way is right knowing the viewer will agree and then bashing it truthfully and heartfelt. seems this is missing in todays writers...nobody wants to take a chance at backlash.
*EDIT* makes more sense as the seasons go on that picard continuously learns to disobey starfleet...thats been a constant in the star trek universe...star fleet is not perfect and ANY command should be put up to morality based judgement and not just obeyed freely.
Exactly how I always saw it. Always loved this scene. The dramatic score drops right where Picards thin attempt falls apart and he is mad at himself for compromising.
"The Measure of a Man", some of the best science fiction ever written.
They showed it in my law school ethics course.
Phoenix Franks my favorite tng episode
@@classiqueliberal8576 I can't decide if that was a joke? If not, that's extremely cool
@@buryyourdraws Not joking at all. University of Southern California law school 20 years ago.
@@classiqueliberal8576 wow, that's awesome
"Data... My name is pronounced Day-ta."
"( Humpf ) What's the difference?!"
"One is my name... The other is not."
My name is Jen. I have always pronounced it as Jin/Gin do to southern accent. I have to deal with my Yankee guy correcting me on my own name.
As someone with a difficult to spell/pronounce first name, this SENT me, and made me always side-eye Pulaski (yay for Crusher's return).
@Scooter Ryan Simple. It's my middle name. What I am called by anyone who knows me.
@witch blade agreed, Dr. Crusher all the way
Most of my coworkers can't even pronounce my name and for me as long as it's remotely close I'll respond to it
There are many episodes of this show where after the credits roll, you feel elevated, nobler, kinder, more compassionate than you did before. You feel like you weren't just entertained, you feel more human. I struggle to think of an example of a contemporary television program that does this.
Sure as hell ain't Matlock.
Try ALTA- Avatar the last Airbender. The animated series. Not the live action remake. Same feels. And no...it's not just a kids show
Try watching Picard or Discovery are pretty good to
@@simsfamily298 theres 5 minues of sci-fi in Discovery mixed in with 30 minutes of people telling each other that its okay to be scared and lets be scared together!
@@googiegress Murder, She Wrote came a little close.
Data in my eyes is the best conceived character in the history of Star Trek. Brent Spiner did a hell of a job!
to be honest, i'd say Brent Spiner's portrayal of the android and Starfleet officer, Lt. Cmd. "Data" is in the top20 character executions/compositions ever put on tape. little shit makes me cry all the time.
I really like the conversation between Data and Spock. One wants to be less human, one wants to be more human.
You are crazy. Wesley Crusher is best character in Star Trek history!! ...oh I'm from the mirror universe. I forget things are different here 🤔
@@bryanx0317 😂😂
The writers get some credit, too, but you're right - Spiner WAS data.
So the argument is:
- Picard postulates the benefit to Starfleet (every Starfleet ship could have itself a Data) that would come from mandating the compromise of Data's sentient rights.
- Data postulates the benefit to Starfleet (every Starfleet ship could have officers with Gordi-eyes) that would come from mandating the compromise of every human officer's sentient rights.
Data essentially asks:
Why is only he under potential mandate to have his rights as a sentient being given up, and not all human officers? Precisely because he is not human. Human rights must therefore be more valuable than non-human rights in Picard's postulate. Picard had not recognized the degree of his own bias here, and sits humbled and in shame.
I thought it was fantastic how the debate eventually came down not to the logical semantics of evaluating sentient life, but to empathy: Do we want to re-institute slavery?
[Enjoyed writing out this argument for myself to understand it, hope it helps others understand]
If only politics could be carried out this way with this logical of a format. I can dream can't I...
Damn you went full data on this conversation ^^
Hah! Well, yeah, I had to. Without the context of the full episode it was pretty hard to follow the argument. I watched this episode a while ago, and I don't remember missing a beat, exactly... I love TNG and am only now on season 3, but some of the conversations are a bit too abrupt to easily follow.
Thanks! I now understand what it's all about.
is this idiot serious right now? this is star trek, theres a lot more than humans...so no there is no ''human rights'' its ''sentient rights'' and data is sentient so GO FUCK YOUR SELF
He wasn't owned, he was swayed by logic, reason, and decency. This show is all class, if only our level of day to day communication could evolve to this..
Let's hope Gene Roddenberry was right and we will be like them one day
@@XxCreateFlowxX we only have a couple centuries to go, I'm sure we'll make it
When I was a kid seeing this scene I didn’t understand Picards disappointment. I thought he was mad at Data. See it again now. I realize he was mad at himself. There is too much ego in todays discussions. People that refuse to back down, simply out of spite or pride. A failing that I myself am guilty of. I too hope we can evolve to this level of dialogue, but I fear at a species level, it will get worse before it gets better.
LIBERAL STARFLEET CAPTAIN OWNED BY POSITONIC ANDROID (GONE TO WARP) (SECURITY CALLED)
That's why it's fiction
One of the very RARE instances where the writers allowed Picard to get so beatdown that he didn't even have a comeback.
cloudparter Worse then that. He had to say dismissed to end the agony. You are dismissed was the equivalent of saying I am checkmated.
I appreciate that insight
Even more than that, Data gave Picard something he could use against Maddox. That is some valuable insight indeed.
trha2222 Well put!
cloudparter Exactly why you'd never expect Picard to take that position.
"The Measure of a Man" was one of Star Trek's perfect episodes. It's everything Star Trek was capable of being. It's everything Gene Roddenberry hoped his series could be. It not only entertained, but made us think and feel and contemplate our own morality.
Without any sci-fi battles with enemy ships and phasers and aliens... we couldn't tear our eyes away from the spectacle of a life-or-death trial of one of our most beloved characters. Rights. Slavery. Our own humanity. Respect. Friendship. It was all here.
Very similar to Isaac Asimov's novel The Bicentennial Man. I think Roddenberry took more than just Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics to heart.
@@rikk319 A more modernized and popular version of the old Asimov tale. Of countless robot tales. I don't think _Measure of a Man_ told the old tale as well, and I don't think it had any ideas or statements which were at all new sci-fi ... but it did reach a wider audience who consider what it said quite profound and memorable.
Calm down, Daniel Jackson.
And now we have Discovery.
you should consider speech-writing.
And the end, Picard is not proud nor angry, but extremely ashamed that he hadn't considered the problem in terms of dealing with a conscious being. For that, he is too ashamed to look Data in the eye, angry only at himself. Brilliant acting.
well he is a little bit angry... about himself:D
"Sick bay? Please prepare to receive Captain Picard - he experienced severe burns to 100% of his ego"
Doctor Crusher - Shit I've ran out of Aloe Vera!
At the time of this episode, it would have been Dr. Pulaski, fyi...
Boris, don't be that guy.
We need more Boris in the world.
Dr. Pulaski, aka Dr. Insufferable Cold Bitch
My biggest complaint with this episode was that Starfleet wanted to treat Data like property but, even if they had succeeded in proving that he _is,_ he's not _their_ property. They didn't create him, they didn't even fund the research that went into building him.
Plus, they didn't just put him into service, he applied to Starfleet, and he attended and graduated from Starfleet Academy. By allowing him to do all that, they implicitly accepted that he was his own being and not their property.
Yeah I never got why they thought he was their property. It is just as you said.
Plus the fact he could beat their asses real good.
I see I'm not the only person who thought of this. Cool!
@Jeremiah Boyd: An embryo is human, but not a person. It cannot exist without continuous life-support, and it only has the potential to gain more potential. An embryo is only one step above a brain-dead body existing in permanent vegetative state, which also cannot live without continuous life-support. Both are far removed from being a self-sustaining person with consciousness, memories, knowledge, and a web of relationships that would suffer without their presence. Even as a father of a son whom I love, I still accept that there was a time months before he was born when I would've prioritized my girlfriend's life and health if that decision had needed to be made.
@@deusexaethera Ugh...
I love how Picard is always shown as being able to change his mind or be convinced away from his original thinking when evidence is presented or a good argument is made. The fact that he doesn't always start out on the right side of an issue is one of the best aspects of the character.
That's why I like Picard more than Kirk. Kirk was always right and always headstrong, Picard was willing to be wrong and usually graciously.
@@wesleyorange8133 Kirk wasn't always right or headstrong and was swayed by Spock and Bones all the time. One of my favorite parts of Wrath of Khan was when Savik spoke up about security regs while Spock and Kirk ignored her which was how Khan crippled the Enterprise. Once they escaped Kirk turned to Savik and told her to keep on quoting every regulation she wants.
The whole point of WoK was that Khan ignored his followers and trusted in his intellect while Kirk relied on his crew and trusted their experience. Kirk didn't beat Khan; the entire Enterprise working together beat Khan.
Phasers set to burn, not stun
+manofsan Someone please make this a meme. I would, but I don't have any talent.
But being on the recieving end of a burn can still be quite stunning.
dam roasted
lol
BBQd extra crispy
As soon as Data left, Picard slowly stood up, walked to the nearest airlock and ejected himself into space.
I have so much trust on Riker as a captain that when picard got assimilated by the borgs...i would ask for a transfer... to the borg cube..
Riker is a great commander.
jarret45
Yea, every time he took over except on best of both worlds he fucked up. includding that ferengi invasion on the enterprise D where he allow a galaxy class be taken down by two bop commanded by lame ferengis
1300l Nah bruh he's a great leader. Saved the enterprise with the Riker Maneuver in Insurrection as well.
But that's only because he had that cool joystick installed.
Data: Actually that will be all Mr. Picard.
Steven Foster Among many funny comments here, this one made me laugh out loud the hardest. Deserves more likes.
lmao
I liked this comment, then I unliked it, then I liked it again.
Twice Liked, bro.
Look at me, I am the Captain now!
“Mr Picard”
Data would NEVER disrespect a superior officer in such fashion.
...the captain was speechless in the face of such logic...
+pepe cohetes Yeah and doesnt happen often with Picard.
Nothing wrong with data's 5volts
I think thats the single best lyric for a song
but has baldness on his side
+Jaegar Ultima Considering how often Geordi has issues with that crap visor, I'd have to say it's more then a good argument against it.
Picard doesn't get owned, just pointed in the right path. Picard knows this in seconds.
He was owned, for a character with values, ethics and philosophical awareness like Picard, his own bias being made so clear was probably about as crushing a blow as one could deliver. But like you say, it takes Picard about a second to process this and realise his mistake and he's man enough to not just admit it but fight against his own, former, position.
My heart goes out to Picard in this scene. It almost makes me cry when he turns his head knowing Data is proving his own point.
Picard does it AGAIN to Data when he, at first, fails to give Data a command of his own when the Federation erects a blockade from Romulan space into Klingon Territory to stop (what was theorized at the time to be) covert Romulan supply chains to the Duras family to aid them in their fight against Gowron's forces in the Klngon civil war after Gowron's instillation as the Supreme Chancellor of the Klingon Empire. Data highlights how as next in line after 1st officer Commander Riker, Data should have been given his own command. Data later proved indispensable in that capacity as he successfully exposed (by a perfectly non-violent way too) active Romulan interference (attempting to aid the Duras family) in the Klingon civil war.
The last line ‘that will be all “MR” data’ shows Picard recognizing the error of his ways. Subtle but powerful detail.
"I believe that they used to call it a 'mike drop' in the 21st century."
It's a tricorder drop in the 24th century.
mic*
I hope Mike is okay?!?
Why not a com badge drop?
This is a perfect example of how music can make all the difference in a scene. Picard's facial expression barely changes, but you know the exact moment he changed his mind by the music.
One of the few times Picard was actually put in HIS place, rather than putting someone else in THEIR place.
Picard was like... crap I didn't even realized that premise was based on a prejudiced double-standard.
Mark Another time was when he let the borg Hugh live and the Admiral chewed him out. I agreed with her. He took it like a man though.
There are FOUR lights!
Put in his place? He’s the captain. It shouldn’t happen all that often anyway
You are correct, but he's still human, and still fallible.
"huh, why don't I have sick robot eyes"
elronman batou fully supports artificial eyes.
Why would you want sick ones?
I wish I could have at least half of the presence of mind these characters display in their dialogue in my daily life.
Cut yourself some slack. Most of the dialogue was written over the course of a few days, we have mere moments to speak our voice into history. As long as you never allow weakness or a lack of integrity into your speech, you will be as unstoppable as you can possibly be.
If you cannot speak from a position of strength, at least never allow yourself to speak from a position of weakness. Stay strong.
Well, you can start reading more with advanced material containing complex vocabulary, which will make you seem more smart if used correctly, pompous if not. And writing helps a lot. Writing your own words and reading others will reinforce good habits for formulating good sentence structure, and will help you to find things to say when you have trouble formulating a natural conversation on your own. Perhaps start thinking about conversations and sentences before hand, and write them out and pratice them. Even if you never use them, the practice will help a lot.
The cut scene right after Data leaves: "Picard to Dr. Crusher, begin the eye-replacement protocol on all crew immediately"
cut scene? its a tv show not a video game
+Steve N
*I don't think you understand what Vic C is saying.*
*Vic C is correct - cutscenes are for video games, not TV shows. So he's right.*
@@hillaryclintonsracistkaras1720 he's not saying cutscene, he's saying that a scene was cut/removed after this one
This is season 2. Dr. Pulaski is on board while Beverly Crusher is at Starfleet Medical.
@@Sf-qu3he Only because Gates McFadden was on maternity leave.
I was going to make your point, but you beat me to it.
Data just barely resisted saying "and why the hell are you still bald?"
Yes... i can totally see that happening.
"What if there is a possibility that many more beings like yourself can be constructed?"
"What if you had hair?"
"-_- .... that'll be all mr. data"
Someone asked this of Gene Roddenberry - "By the 24th Century, won't baldness have been cured?"
The reply was a classic humanist one, typical of the vision of how humanity could grow, that Gene put forward with Trek:
"Bald? By the 24th Century, nobody will care."
Yeah! YEAH! Cybernetic hair implants.
Why is baldness considered an undesirable affliction that must be cured?
Kzar Antila I'm bald and I would be more than happy to have it cured, and it's an affliction because it happens whether you like it or not
Keep in mind that during this entire episode where Starfleet is debating whether or not to conduct experiments on Data and possibly kill him, he has the ability to single-handedly take over the entire ship and hold everyone prisoner.
The only reason this court case happens, is because he allows it. It really illustrates Datas extreme respect for due process, even when he disagrees with the outcome.
Hell, he could disable everything and flee to parts unknown.
It's questionable if "respect for due process" is the reason for that and not his complete lack of instinctual fear and the associated violent responses. You have to remember Data is not human or any other type of animal. If they forced him then he would submit and I have no reason to believe otherwise, as he was likely programmed to do under such circumstances.
@@JonesCrimson Sure, he doesn't have emotions. But he want to avoid being experimented on, and tries to leave by quitting his job. So he has a goal, and he takes every legal action available to achieve that goal. That's choices that he makes, and I don't think we are meant think he is just a slave of his programming and couldn't have made different choices if he wanted to. In the episode where Data becomes the captain of a different ship, he disobeys a direct order and takes the punishment for that, because he believed he was doing the right thing.
In an universe like ours, where every smallest event is deterministic, it's dumb to deprecate anything/anyone by saying that it's a matter of programming.
It's enough to know and always remember consciously that free will is only an illusion. Instinct tells everyone that by changing one little detail in the past, it's possible to alter the future. Everyone instinctively agrees with that, but nearly everyone fails to consciously acknowledge that idea of changing the future by changing the past assumes definitely that there's no such thing as free will in those people who are meant to act accordingly to the change in the past by repeating every thought, decision and action, which aren't altered by the change in the past.
The fact that free will is only an illusion is easy to understand but extremely hard to accept. Ego works that way.
@@biglightball We learned almost 100 years ago that the universe is not deterministic. See quantum mechanics. The universe itself does not know what will happen next.
*blipity beep* "Picard to Sickbay, I need a dermal regenerator for a burn I just received."
Not a dermal re-generator, an Ego re-generator
"Blipity beep" don't know why, but seeing that in writing makes me happy.😁
Good point Data. Mr. Spock, fetch the ice cream scoops! Cyber eyes for everyone!
Marcus Ager this commment made me choke on my drink
Glad I could be of service =D
Holy crap that was a funny comment! Good one Marcus, I laughed for quite a while on that.
Whoa. I'd vote for something that would make a woman orgasm ten times in a row. Yeah, buddy. Be a chick magnet. Straight gigolo!
I'm crying right now, rubbing the tears from my eyes in laughter.
The older I grow, and the more knowledge and experience I gain, the more and more I appreciate ST:TNG. It's an astonishingly well-written TV series.
Agreed. This is my favorite episode. Surprisingly, it's in season 2; my second least favorite season of the show.
When i was watching other Tv shows, i remember seeing the good guy beating someone else because they have been rude or just to make a scene. In star trek you learn no matter violence isn't the answer. So now i try to stay calm in every situation. Thanks to star trek.
Picard must be property because he's the one who got owned!
Picard: "Well we have a problem."
Data: "I find myself in complete agreement with that assessment of the situation sir."
It's not really a "Got ya" moment, it's more like a..
"Oh fuck he's right, I gotta stop this!"
Note Data's final sentence. The analogy to Geordi does not hold since Data is not human. Picard still thinks he should do the procedure.
@@busTedOaS You really didn't get the scene at all did you!
@@victorpradha9946 Just watch the episode dude.
@@busTedOaS Are you sure you have. Picard originally is bending over backwards to oblige Starfleet like a good captain is want to do. He still hadn't formally weighed in. During his discussion with Data, which exposes Picard's bias against Data because he isn't human by any traditional definition, Data points out how Picard would never subject any other member of his crew to such treatment. This is when the light bulb goes off in Picard's head about how disloyal he was being to his own crew that are under his command and protection. That's when Picard digs in on defending Data! Picard realized that his loyalty by means of obedience to Starfleet undercut the "rights" of his own crew member. The ending of the episode underscores Picard's realization about "rights"!
@@victorpradha9946 Just rewatched it and you are 100% right. Picard actually does change his opinion here. I completely misremembered how the episode continued. Sorry, and thank you for pointing it out!
These moments where trek can make you reflect on philosophical issues without any of our own personal baggage attached is what makes it so great.
When something says “I WILL NOT” that’s when you know it’s “alive”
Good point. I'm reminded of Picard's reaction when Hugh says "I will not". There, Picard immediately recognises that Hugh has become a sentient individual.
On another note, I would have loved a scene or two between Data and Hugh. I could imagine Data standing up for Hugh's rights, just as he did for the Exo-Comps.
@Amirus True, the bigger challenge is in determining independent thought and no just preprogrammed responses. A better Turing test would be to offer an artificial intelligence multiple choices without a practical purpose to reduce the chance of a preprogrammed response, or even an automatic mathematical calculation. Then question the AI as to why it made the choice to rule out random selection.
That said, ethical protocol for dealing with emergent intelligence should be well established before said intelligence actually emerges.
I am reminded of the 2011 Planet of the Apes movie. Caesar's first word is "no." No to the mistreatment, no to the cage, no to being property, no to everything the humans are doing. Perfect moment.
I once had a Mac vocally say "It's not my fault, the printer is jammed". But it was about as sentient as a sack of bongs.
Ain't that Asimov's principle right there?
I love this Picard not because he is always right and perfect, but because of the fact that he never hesitates to consider that he is on the wrong. He is quick to apologize and he has no ego
But he didn't apologize..
Data's argument hit Picard where he lived. And Data was correct. It was because Data was not human. We all have prejudices. The wise ones among us are the ones who recognize that prejudice and ruthlessly reject it, as Picard did in this episode.
My biggest complaint with this episode was that Starfleet wanted to treat Data like property but, even if they had succeeded in proving that he is, he's not their property. They didn't create him, they didn't even fund the research that went into building him.
Plus, they didn't just put him into service, he applied to Starfleet, and he attended and graduated from Starfleet Academy. By allowing him to do all that, they implicitly accepted that he was his own being and not their property.
I think this hit Picard because for all his (and frankly Roddenberry's) blustering about how "evolved" humans are in the 24th century we still have our bias and believe that the only way for a creature to be considered sentient is for it to be like us
@@TheSilverPhoenix100 Star Trek uses the word 'sentient' wrongly. Every animate life form on this planet is sentient. Sentient means to be able to feel. Even dogs are sentient. The word they should be using is 'sapient'. Which means to be able to intelligently converse with others
@MinutemanSam Point taken about bacteria and other microscopic life forms. I should have said all macro scale animate life forms are sentient. My bad.
@@jonahkaun891 No bias here. Just stating facts and used dogs as an example. I suppose had I said "Even zebras are sentient, you would think I have a strange bias against zebras.
I have to say, that actually was, complete verbal ownage.
Questions have their way of allowing that
What made him such a great man and commander was that he was capable of learning from his mistakes and changing his opinion.
If only that happened in real life.
"Oh, I see, it is precisely because I am not human" -- ouch!
Sarah Szabo man it's getting roasty in here!
In this particular case there is a big difference. Data is way more than just a computer. He is sentient, so he should be treated like a person, not an object.
Da Name
What if I told you humans are just biological computers?
Da Name
What if something far more intelligent than us existed, but wasn't human, would that being deserve less rights than a human?
Da Name
Hypothetically, if our goal as sentient beings were to be to minimize suffering in sentient beings, then would giving rights to sentient brings to prevent or minimize their suffering be a good thing to do?
Picard: "Hmmm, not a bad ideea, all considered."
And that is how the Federation became the Borg.
whoa yes
We will become the Borg though, the process is well and truly in motion. Becoming interconnected at more and more levels until the self eventually means nothing.
@@gavsmith1980 Yes. The future will be a nightmare.
"The Measure of a Man" was one my favorite episodes in the whole Star Trek pantheon. I loved Riker's and Picard's courtroom arguments and the way Data comforted Riker, who felt guilty, later.
Apply cold water to burned area...
i think reactor coolant may be more effective
Just apply hot water :D
Mint frosting.
Dermal regenerator.
Boiling water is the best on burned skin.
1:28 ".....Sickbay? GET ME SOME CYBORG EYES"
I would say the same thing.
Hmm.... Do cyborgs also have penises?
helioseismology
how do you think they connect to 20th century PCs?
helioseismology Data is fully functional! (google for it).
ozan oğuz haktanır - I know that one. What a weird episode.
When picard stands for data in the court room on the ship, his line "Now tell me, Commander, what is Data?"
"I don't understand."
"What is he?"
"A machine!"
"Is he? Are you sure?"
"Yes!"
"You see he's met two of your three criteria for sentience, so what if he meets the third, consciousness, in even the smallest degree? What is he then? I don't know, do you? (to Riker) Do you? (to Phillipa) Do you?" This line makes me shiver, powerful as hell!
The Victory music at the end makes it even better xD
+Kenji Not so much victory as call to arms.
+hagamapama call to arms for victory ; P
Kenji not so much call to arms as call to duty.
trha2222 sounds like bullshit but I'm too lazy to look it up
The next scene Picard commits Hara-Kiri and dies with honor.
Spihk Heartbust!? Spihk Heartbust go now quickly and ask original user for sports shorts that Bozeman Hotmail Recipient found in falcon Server football locker room to ask Bozeman Hotmail Recipient's Falcon Server football Coach if Bozeman Hotmail Recipient in a Hazing Victim group by force; go!
I feel like Star Trek: Picard took this episode and went in the opposite direction.
Now it's CyberPicard for you..
I choose to recognize "All Good Things" as the real ending for TNG and its characters. Everything after is bad fan fiction.
@@MakerInMotion Except for Worf and others on DS9, I assume.
@@Karajorma I never gave DS9 a proper chance, but I heard good things.
@@XavierBetoN Cyberpicard who'll still get old and die.
I mean that sucks as far as trade-offs go.
Also why didn't the "TotallyNotACopyofTheRocinante" have fwippy swippy post-production holograms instead of the hard-light holograms we've seen since TNG?
I mean where's the crew-individual holconsoles instead?
I have done nothing but watch awesome/funny Data clips all morning what am I doing with my life.
Luther Fla Enjoying it!
You and me too
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time
It's called "learning".
To be honest... Not as much owned as put on the right track.
You pretty much cut right as Picard gets up to challenge the order from starfleet ;)
Very true
I remember this scene being Cpt. Picard, feeling defeated, trying to get Data to submit to something even he did not morally agree with (accentuated with him opening the door almost manually rather than a simple 'come in').
Am I remembering this scene incorrectly?
Yep, and ironically Starfleet's POV basically rests on the concept of being 'owned'.
Yep, and ironically Starfleet's POV basically rests on the concept of being 'owned'.
When actual matters were discussed instead of forcing what happens in someone's bedroom down everyone's throat.
Picard: "So this is what it feels like to be on the receiving end of an owning..."
Fucking obliterated.
"Mr Data - you are a clever man ... in any time period."
there was even pwnage music
Riker and Worf are playing trumpets just outside the door.
@@handsomebrick Haha xD
The whole theater really did clap
@@drewbryk You watched this in a theater?
lol
A Data for every ship would be a huge security risk, as seen how many times Data was compromised by dr. Soon, Lore or the Holodeck etc.
None of the biological lifeforms ever posed a security risk hey ;) (how many times did Data save everyone by not being a lame weakling who can't even breath poison?)
Yeah each ship apparently has a Kirk / Riker figure who is always bringing alien STDs or addictive video games on board.
"Tea. Earl Grey. With a big shot of Scotch."
The wording here is so meaningful. Picard didn't tell Data he was dismissed, just "that will be all". It was a concession of defeat rather than a command of authority.
I think the basic story was flawed because Data was accepted at the Academy, graduated with honors and granted a commission. That implies that like any other Starfleet officer he was aware of himself and his responsiblies. If he isn't a fully self aware being, why was this allowed? Data's question should have been, "If I do not have the same rights as any other member of this crew, why am I here and in this uniform?"
Grace Skerp The same thought and questions happened when they gave a ship to Data to command during a mission. Which btw turned out to save their asses and Data gets to pwn another fool that thinks they can talk to him how ever. Not saying the story is flawed I mean they talk about your question specifically when wondering if they should give Data a ship to command. And it turns out not giving him a ship(if he was a human) would be a slap in the face thus they gave him a ship(for that mission).
+Grace Skerp Yes, he could have said that. But what he said was actually a lot more powerful. He said what you said above, just not in those words. He also added the fact that if he were human, his rights would have never been questioned in the first place.
+ssjwes Well stated.
Any time Data is given command, he has to pwn someone to get it or convince them he is the right choice for the job or to treat him with respect.
I believe it is an analogy to racism. He has to fight for everything as if he has no rights. Even with members of his own crew. (Such as Worf treating him disrespectfully as a captain. Worf would have never treated another captain that way.)
Yeah, that was the big issue for me. His admittance into the Academy was predicated on Starfleet's acceptance that he was a sentient being. So, Maddox would've been at a disadvantage, since he'd have to argue that his initial acceptance into the Academy was a mistake (and, to a lesser extent, his subsequent promotions). The burden of proof should've been on Maddox, not Data.
.... And, actually, if the ruling had been made in Maddox's favor, that would've potentially caused a lot of other bureaucratic headaches. Essentially every order he ever gave in his entire career would now be invalid. That could potentially cause some serious problems
Starfleet, like the rest of humanity, is fickle. When it suited them, they were ready to deny Data's personhood.
One thing that makes this episode great is that Data is changing the way both Picard and the audience look at him. Season 1 was Data at his most robotic, that's how both the audience and his crewmates saw him.
TREKT!
+kylefer Bahahaha
+kylefer lolol
+kylefer Forthwith and HENCEFORTH!! Whenever anyone pwns anyone with Star Trek references...it shall be known as being "Trekt!". So sayeth the Lord of Slag.
+LordSlag After seeing your comment, do you know that I have actually started using this word "TREKT!!!" captain😂😂😀😀 People don't get the reference many times but for me it's fun 👹😎
P K same lol, ultimate trekkage.
Measure of a Man was probably THE episode that made me like TNG. It had been limping along with kinda meh at best episodes. I was waiting for them to give me something that made the characters more... real? Not sure how else to put it. Then this episode came along and asked the perfect question, and put our central characters in the middle of giving us an answer.
He didn't 'own' him. He guided him to greater insight by offering his own wisdom.
TNG, one the rare shows that you can watch from a television and not destroy your mind.
Well, on every second episode at least xD
Hi, i have a reality check for a Mr uhm John, Luck, Pickard...
Jean-Luc
It's a reference to what Q said in the episode where Jean-Luc "dies" and gets the chance to fix some of his past mistakes. It was misspelled purposely
8bitmantra Oh, my bad.
Tapestry, Season 6. You'll find Pickard there.
Lol clever referancr
I love the audio compression on the music at the end. Something about it is so nostalgic
Picard: “Look, Data... an eagle!”
(As Data looks away, Picard beams out of the room)
The Borg: "Damn, that´s a great idea!"
I come by every few years to watch this just because how quickly the turns the turns have tabled
This is one of my all-time favorite scenes, for both Data and Picard actually, but especially Picard - this scene so encapsulates one of my favorite character traits of his.
It’s the quiet dignity with which he acknowledges His defeat. And yes, that is what we have here. Picard always has the higher moral standard, the better answer, and the wiser wisdom (for the most part anyway) In most of these little heart-to-heart conversations we see throughout TNG. It is rare indeed when the card does not have an answer for a point made in a conversation.
Now while some, and indeed while many who hold positions of power, will rarely if ever acknowledge they are incorrect or that they have made a mistake - and in fact many will deflect from the situation with extreme anger and hostility - Picard here does what he rarely ever does, he (even if slightly) HANGS HIS HEAD, and has no reply; rare indeed. He then quietly dismisses Data. #DATA also knows the card well enough to understand, while this may be a bit of Headcanon, I think he conveys that ever so slightly with his body language.
Preserving his dignity and the dignity of the office, while simultaneously always owning his own shit = gangsta
A highlight from my favourite episode.
This is a thought-provoking, thoughtful, respectful and well acted scene. Spiner and Stewart are brilliant actors.
Data hacked Picard's surround sound to play the dramatic french horn mic drop after that last statement.
Picard spends the next few minutes on his couch thinking: “damn, Data is a smooth talker.”
Picard: Mr. Data, have you considered....
Data: *I'm about to end this whole man's career in exactly 15 seconds*
Data used a laser instead of a phaser. He didn't want to stun or kill, just burn.
"Shut up, Wesley!"
'I find myself in complete agreement with that assessment of the situation, sir'.
Wonderful writing!
Lesser script writers would have had Data saying 'Yes sir'.
Interesting fact: Geordi's visor is not superior to human eyes, just different. He gains some means of perception and loses others. (IIRC the later visorless eyes were more advanced and might have enabled normal human sight plus the enhancements, but that was after this scene.)
+Dᴏᴡʟᴘʜɪɴ I always wondered about Data saying that line since it's not accurate for the reasons you state. But maybe Data wouldn't understand why his comment is not accurate since he doesn't have human eyes either.
+Dᴏᴡʟᴘʜɪɴ Perhaps he means it's superior in a practical sense, for a Star Fleet officer or space traveler in general; though not as aesthetically pleasing (as Geordi laments on a few occasions, never being able to see a rainbow being an example), being able to see the upper EM-spectrum may be more useful.
Such a brilliant episode. Maddox wanted to study Data and make more beings like him. The repercussions is definitely felt in the events leading up to season one of Picard.
“Data schools Picard - and Picard rightfully concedes the point”
Picard: "I understand your objections... "
Data: "Want to bet?"
Picard's attempt to rationalize Maddox's intentions was very cooly demolished with a single question. Data is completely right, and Starfleet and Maddox are completely in the wrong. Starfleet acknowledged Data's sentience when they accepted his Academy application.
Or... it was his subconscious way to challenge superior intellect on the subject, to hear a solution.
I usually look forward to picard's speeches but data really put him in his place.
"Measure of a man" is with no doubts one of the best ST episodes, and probably my favorite episode of all the TV series I've ever seen
"The Measure of A Man"--the episode that finally sold me on Next Generation for good!
the part that really makes this exchange hurt is that data DOES want more androids like him and picard KNOWS that - it's just that, under these circumstances, data knows it would lead to disaster
I fear we will never get Trek back to this. A perfect episode that is philosophical and deep and the best that Star Trek has to offer. Today it is Cpt. Burnham at the Helm of the Star Destroyer Discovery blasting through cgi spectacles without any substance.
Ironically, I think there are some amazing characters and deep issues at play in the unfortunately acronymed "STD." Capt. Burnham fairly convincingly displays a lot of the symptoms of borderline personality disorder, a disorder of immaturity, where her relationships are superficial and overly dependent, and her life is constantly in crisis as she tries to project the chaos of her own inadequate childhood on the world around her.
The true tragedy of STD is that instead of more mature characters helping Burnham to see the cognitive errors she is making in overly dramatizing everything she runs into, the show bizarrely celebrates her immaturity, and mind-blowingly promotes a reckless, immature, emotionally stunted individual to be in charge of everyone else. Its worse than being unhelpful; the show actively promotes poor ways of coping with the world.
The TNG equivalent would be if they fired Picard and put Wesley in charge of running the ship, and then the entire crew had personality transplants and went "yeah that was a good idea, okay Wesley teach us how to be adults!"
RIP Picard
+Max Pankau Rest in Picard
+Uejji Lol
Picard chewing data's words. Picard-chew if you will.
he didn't
Neither Picard as role died in any series or film nor did Sir Patrick Stewart die in real-life
(Door Chime) ...Picard expecting Data at the door - yells "Come!" Against the door outside, Picard hears: * Splat!* "No. Dammit Data, Come, IN! "
Gosh, this was such an awesome show. So many fantastic episodes.
compare it to deep space 9...
Lots o' bad ones too
I can't decide which I prefer. Nostalgia makes me think TNG is more awesome.
Bald Starfleet captain gets DESTROYED by facts & logic
Gone wild gone sexual
God this generation is retarded.
Yeah I prefer the next generation way more
It's amazing how our own computer screens these days are way thinner than those represented in TNG universe. They correctly predicted touch-technology, though but not that absurdly large and ridiculously-shaped 'keyboard' that Picard uses in the opening of this scene.
You know Picard is torn. He values Data as a crewmember and friend, yet he also wants the best for Starfleet and the Federation. And Data reminded him of unpleasant reality.