Yup. Just watched the Ayoob vid. I was shaking my head. He just wants to make his (cops's) job easier. They don't care if you're innocent or guilty, they just want to go home alive.
@@LTVoyager Whether he's correct about Ayoob's character and perspective is arguable. But the fact is Ayoob's advice in this case couldn't be more wrong and is, in actuality, completely indefensible.
@@LTVoyager I will take the advice of defense attorneys who defend folks accused of citizens facing trial for defending themselves over that of Ayoob, who has never practiced law every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Ayoob's advice is based on the farcical notion that the first responders have a say in whether you will be charge or not - and that is, indeed, a most farcical notion. You are overwhelmingly more likely to say something that you will hurt your chances of avoiding charges than you are to say something that will be in the least bit beneficial. It's not complicated. STFU. Call your attorney and let him do the talking on your behalf.
@@chuckschillingvideos Most defense attorneys spend their entire career defending guilty people. Very, very rarely do they encounter someone innocent. They advise people this way because 99% of their clients are guilty of the crime they are arrested for. Unless you're dealing with an attorney whose entire practice involves (in truth) self-defense homicide cases, I would not trust them further than you can throw them.
It's important to note that if you talk to your attorney in a public place - the DA can have those witnesses testify as to what you said on the phone. SO, if you talk to your attorney, it needs to be in a place where others can't hear what you say.
@@aarons7975 no, that is not what hearsay is. Hearsay is a statement from someone that is not in the courtroom, it's like a rumor. The defendant, would be in the courtroom and anyone who heard what the defendant said first-hand can bear witness to the conversation and what they told the attorney. This does not constitute as hearsay. Hearsay is like a rumor, so if you're in court testifying against the defendant and your testimony starts with the words "Johnny told me that the defendant said x." That was from someone else's account, not yours, and that is hearsay. If you actually heard the defendant say something in person, that is admissable and you can bear witness to that in court. It's the same exact thing as if you saw someone climb in a window at a burglary. You can bear witness to what they looked like etc.
This is a great lesson that extends to life in general. Keep your trap shut. You always have a opportunity to speak your piece after you’ve had time to think about what you’re saying.
This guy is spitting straight facts. John is sort of seeing every scenario in a perfect world where everyone knows you're innocent but the attorney is right! Anything you say can and WILL be used against you.
I was assaulted at my job and the biggest mistake I made was go to the police... the officer kept implying that I was at fault even after I constantly corrected him and restated myself... in mediation they kept putting the blame on me because the officer wrote what he wanted to. Case was dismissed with no punishment towards my co-worker. The only good thing is my job did let him go.
A lot of police will do that to victims of sexual assault and rape as well. Unfortunately humans have to police themselves, and sometimes a cop is unfit and shouldn't have the job. Sometimes they're actually criminals that wear a badge because someone was dumb enough to allow them to. They're human and humans are a wide variety of things. I do think that allowing every officer the ability to arrest someone in a felony offense js something that should be reviewed. Detain, yes, formally charge with a crime, that should be changed in my opinion. A prosecutors job is to prosecute, it isn't to determine if someone committed a crime or not, that should fall to a court, but it doesn't, it falls to the police officer that showed up. A judge should make that call, and that's what is supposed to happen at an initial bail review, but that's not what happens there either. Many times a commissioner or magistrate won't ever consider dismissing charges and letting someone go, but that technically is part of the process, or at least is supposed to be, though most of them only feel like they should decide if the person gets a bail or stays in jail with no bail until a second review, so they automatically feel like it's not their job to dismiss a case. When in fact that is part of their job.
I agree 100% with what the lawyer. Police do make mistakes when reporting and recording information. Several years ago I was involved in a traffic accident, two police officers examined my jeep and told me, didn’t ask me, but told me I wasn’t wearing a seatbelt. When I told him that I always wear my seatbelt they pretty much called me a liar. When I tried to notify the other person‘s insurance I found out that the officer had completely flubbed it up, and it was up to me to straighten it out. They had written down the wrong insurance company, the wrong policy number, everything!
IMO that kind of thing is worth a formal complaint and a call to local media. I know it's a hassle when you're all ready dealing with insurance, but if we don't consistently hold them accountable the quality of policing will continue to be low.
As a member of Firearms Legal Protection I can tell you their program is top notch in value and gives you direct access to Mr. Victor for council which would normally costs THOUSANDS just to speak with him let alone hire for defense. 100% recommend them.
Agree everything you say to your attorney is privileged (With limited exceptions)with one important caveat - do not speak to your attorney in the presence of a third-party i.e. the cops. If you are on the phone make sure the LEO cannot overhear you talking to your attorney. Everything you say in the presence of a police officer investigating a crime is admissible into evidence.
@@steveonrock But would they use what you said to try to gain evidence against you? Not legal but if they hear it they may use it without disclosing the fact that they heard it.
@@phillhuddleston9445 I think it's because he said the police are required to give you "space" (e.g. go off to another room unheard) to talk with your attorney
@@ErrantChordier Good luck with that one because I seriously doubt the police are going to give anybody any kind of "space".Even at police stations what people say is always recorded.What the police do is not always in line with what the police must do/should do.If you are ever unfortunate enough to be taken by police to the police station and placed in an interrogation room always keep in mind that the fact that you may be left alone in a police station interrogation room is no guarantee that what you say even if just thinking aloud will not be recorded.
I'm so glad you put Ayoob's recommendations up to a head-on challenge since he is so well known for his good advice! Mr Victor's advice seems great as well. I like the simplicity of Mr. Victor's advice, but I also really like Mr. Ayoob's thinking that you might be the only one at the scene able to point out key details while they are fresh (look under that bush for his knife!). Mr Victor summed it up well by saying it is hard to have a blanket statement that applies to every situation...but then asserted that not talking is always correct :) Hearing both in contrast was a great way to get me thinking critically. Thanks for the education!!
Well said. But I'm going with Mas Ayoob's advice. To not state you were the victim or point out evidence isn't logical and, rightly or wrongly, makes one "appear" guilty in many people's eyes. (Prosecutor: "Is it true you mentioned NOTHING about.... when LE arrived?" etc.) As a juror, I'd find that strange. Granted, you shouldn't say much. Mas is a true self-defense expert and has testified successfully in many self-defense court cases. Even my USCCA self-defense insurance card says to state you were attacked, feared for your life, and had to defend yourself, and to point out witnesses and evidence. Then request medical assistance if you need it, and state you will cooperate fully after you speak with your attorney. I've attended several gun law seminars that had self defense attorneys speaking, and they gave the same advice as Ayoob. So did my local firearm course instructor. This attorney just doesn't ring my chimes, but that may just be me. Isn't he the one who was confused and thought, or certainly implied that he thought, the right to carry meant it was okay to brandish or threaten the victim in one of the early videos? "Criminal defense" expert does not necessarily equate to "Self-defense" expert. (One of my children is an attorney, btw.) In general, criminal clients aren't there because they were involved in a self-defense scenario; they were caught committing a crime and probably shouldn't say a word. I mean no disrespect and don't doubt he's a fine criminal defense attorney, as he described himself in this video. I'm glad to see John debate sometimes in these "John's Briefs" videos, as when John was advocating for carrying with a round in the chamber and the attorney was advising not to do that. The self defense attorneys that I've heard speak all said they carry with a round chambered, btw, as does my child who is an attorney. Yes, I know legal opinions can differ; I just often don't agree with his.
abc No way, dude. Never talk to the police, I’ve NEVER heard any attorney say it’s ok to talk to a cop right after an incident happened. DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE. They are not your friends. In your 911 call you would have said something like “someone broke into my house and I discharged my firearm” for example. That’s enough. Let them handcuff you and take you in, an arrest is not a charge.
@@c0mputer An 'arrest' is part of your record until you die. Anyone requesting a background check on you (i.e. applying for a job) will see that 'arrest'. Whether you are charged or booked or anything after the fact... the 'arrest' will remain. That alone will provide you with lots of issues down the road.
This is almost the same thing my cousin told me who is an Attorney. The cops only need to hear one word, "You will speak with my Lawyer. I am remaining silent as is my right." Then let them cuff you and take you to the station for processing. DO NOT TALK WITH ANYONE OTHER THAN YOUR LAWYER AND OBEY THEIR ADVICE!
I like your advice. People think that the goal is not to be arrested, cuffed and taken to jail. Nothing you say will stop that from happening. The fight is in court for your innocence NOT to avoid going to jail.
Haven't started the video yet but already liked. I'm an AZ resident and have been following Marc and watching/listening to his lectures/videos for several years and been subscribed to John's channel for the last few years, awesome to see you 2 doing something together!
Public criticism can be awkward (constructive or otherwise). I am glad John’s ego is as secure as Mr. Victors advice. As a “Talker” I needed to hear this. Thank you.
Yeah their favorite trick is to not ask questions but make statements, usually inflammatory. You'll be tempted to correct them and that's the same thing as spilling your guts during questioning.
Cops are professionals at interviews they have done it hundreds of times as most of us are a complete novice. So u are so outmatched u need your own professional because we don’t know all the pitfalls/traps... FYI
@@kasimjarkai7807 Actually there are several laws that can be put against you for lying to the police. You just decided to be lazy and lie out your ass instead of searching for something that would taken 5 seconds to google. www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defense/crime-penalties/lie-police-friend.htm
What about when it's non lethal, you're the victim, the perp is blabbing so the cop is under pressure to respond to their (lying) complaint, and the cop just wants something from you at the scene so they can understand what happened and decide whether to charge or arrest someone?
This is a GREAT video!!! Awesome work. Those miranda rights are legit. ANYTHING you say CAN and WILL be used AGAINST you. Never says it will be used to help you lol.
For legal reasons, nothing you say can be used to help you in court. It will be used against you, and cannot be used to help you. Read that again a few more times and let it sink in deep!
@@rosebarnes9625 Yep 100%. Info you shared that may be helpful in court will be considered "hear say" in the court and will be dismissed. If it hurts you...game on. It's crazy. [Hear Say - Noun - information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor.]
Marc Victor did an outstanding job explaining the proper response. When I was a new officer I had the opportunity to speak to a local prosecutor and ask him what he would do if involved in a shooting. His response was “there is no way you are going to talk your way out of this and not get cuffed and taken down to the police station regardless of how perfectly justifiable it was. So there is no benefit for you saying anything at the scene. Secondly, anything your attorney says on your behalf can’t be used against you so shut up and let your attorney do all the talking.” As I progressed in my career and got more experience I realized how right he was. So many times I witnessed people giving statements in the heat of the moment and they didn’t realize they were contradicting themselves or the evidence. None of that works to your favor.
Your attorney can say things to authorities that YOU cannot. They are “members of the Court.” You are not. “I will respectfully REFUSE to speak to you. I want my attorney.” Say nothing more. There is ENORMOUS TEMPTATION to be verbose. This is an entirely normal behavioral phenomenon. Take some deep breaths. Control your breathing. Accept the handcuffs. Be prepared to be pushed into the squad car. Concentrate on relaxing. SAY NOTHING. Everything you say will be held against you. I mean everything. Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
John, I really can't thank you enough for posting up videos with information like this, PRICELESS!!! Thank you so much! I look forward to watching and learning more. Be safe! Randy
John, another great interview! As I have said elsewhere, firearms are perhaps the 2nd most politicized aspect of American life. The "life after defensive force" for the rest of your life really depends upon the jurisdiction and the politics of firearms (e.g. District Attorney's future campaigns, U.S. Attorney's future political aspirations). Great advise. I, too, carry several participating attorneys' phone numbers, and the 800 number for my firearm defensive risk financing (e.g. insurance). Keep up the great work.
Great video and discussion, John. The more I hear this stuff the more it gets ingrained in me, so hopefully I do all the right things, if I'm ever involved in "a situation." Thank you for the great work you do!
Pete Gonzales Marc this was a very helpful information that made a lot of sense to me about not talking to the police after a self defense shooting.Thank you for your attorney advice.
Thunder Ranch, cadre: Clint Smith advises CCW-gun owners to clearly state they are the victim & want to press charges/ID the attacker-attackers at the scene. It helps establish you as the victim or defender. I'd add it's a + that this AZ atty brings up how sworn LE may lie or distort things at the scene. I'd add that 911-dispatch centers are TRAINED to keep a CCW user/shooter talking. They want to have a "spontaneous remark".
My experience has been they already have set in their mind when they arrive who is the "perp" and who is the "victim" and nothing you say will change thier mind... you may be able to cement what they thought (either way) but if they arrive thinking you are the "perp" you will never change that by talking....
So . . . that's one of the *hidden costs* of being a a firearms owner / carrier. Having an attorney on retainer *CONSTANTLY* . . . *BEFORE* any life threatening situation happens to you. Once it happens and you *don't* have a lawyer in your "corner" ??? . . . i wouldn't want to be in that position to say the least.
Fun Fact: things you say to police BEFORE they read your Miranda rights can still be used against you. Its difficult but not impossible to get that stuff thrown out of court.
I was trained by my step brother who is retired state police & was a range instructor for several years of that. He trains to tell the officers responding to say nothing except "I want to comply but will say nothing at this time until I speak to my lawyer." Put that on repeat like a record player & say nothing else. You will get cuffed & stuffed & say NOTHING until you speak to lawyer then let him do the talking after that. Great advice John!
@@chuckschillingvideos Funny how so much can change from 11 months ago when I left that comment. That was training in a "normal" America & i agreed with it. Now, i think i would just be mute & deaf 😉
@@RomeoGSP Oh, I totally get it. Ideally, we would all be rewarded for doing the "right, conscientious" thing and cooperating with police and investigators at the scene. But that's just not how things work these days - at least not something you can bet your freedom upon.
I love Masad Ayoob, but this is brilliant in how quickly an attorney who's actually defended people in court shuts down the simplicity with which so many of you subscribe to his "principles", say this, don't say that based on his teachings. I have been waiting for someone to show the other side of what IU preachers and here it is. When John says of course if you murdered someone shut up, if it was a bad shoot don't say anything but like this attorney points out, in that moment you may not know whether it was a good or bad shoot, plus you're not the subject matter expert on the thing, that's going to be the prosecutor who chooses to try or not try you. I like this fellows initial approach far better than the standard "say this don't say that" even those who in the past make such bold claims as most cops don't know anything about the laws regarding the use of deadly force, which is absolutely not true.
I don’t know Arizona law, but there is one very important consideration for attorney-client privilege. If you make statements to your attorney with third-parties present then the third parties may be called to testify and that hearsay testimony may come in (statements against penal interest, excited utterance, etc). Just something to think about if you do decide to call your attorney at the scene.
After a critical incident you are most likely experiencing fight or flight symptoms. An adrenaline dump causes energy to course your body. Jittery, shakey, pacing, tremors etc. Your body wants to find ways to burn off that energy. It is very natural to want to pop off at the mouth. That can jam you up unintentionally. "I am invoking my right to counsel."
So say your with your spouse or family and they were there for the entire event, should they keep their mouth shut as well or should they cooperate as a "witness" and explain what they seen from their point of view?
I'd like to see a good answer for this as well. I would think they shouldn't say anything either, although I'm not sure if there are any legal pitfalls or requirements with them being witnesses.
Anyone at the scene is a potential suspect and therefore entitled to exercise their 5th Amendment rights. That may change over time, but at the scene anyone who cares about you will keep their mouths shut until counsel is obtained.
None say anything and that shd be discussed with family before an incident. At a family meeting. If x ever happens do not speak to the police. We will speak to attorney first
I'd really like to hear the same discussion on what to say when you call 911. I think there are two versions that need to be discussed. (1) A post shooting call to 911 and (2) a pre shooting call to 911. For example you hear someone breaking in and you call 911 but during the call the situation escalates to a self defense shooting.
I guess UA-cam reads my comments because the next time iIopened UA-cam the top suggested video was "How Your 911 Call Can Get You Sent to Prison (John’s Briefs) | ASP Extra"
If you are in any doubt as to the correct course of action, just keep rewinding the bit where it is said that if the police find themselves in a legally questionable position they are specifically told/instructed not to say anything until a lawyer turns up.
I took a CCW class years ago and the instructor told us a story about a student who was convinced the police would force her to say something no matter what. Turns out she’d been watching too much tv. He followed that up with another story about a man who said he was too distressed to talk, and that was it.
I'm a cop and I agree. You never ever talk to the police, even if you happen to be one. Doesn't mean you have to be a jerk, you just don't talk until you talk to a lawyer. Ever. Period.
I think people are mistakenly trying to avoid going directly to jail. Or if they don't have a lawyer or money; sitting in Jail until you do get assigned one. Once again stack your chip$ and support system ahead of time. His advice is great.
One thing I think he should have added: remember, after demanding to speak to your lawyer, when you shut up: *STAY* *SHUT* *UP.* Sometimes the cops will be like "well, I gotta take you to the station", "hey, you want some Burger King on the way?" -- they might try to open you up, because if you start talking *on your own,* that's still just as admissible. The cop is no longer allowed to question you about the events after saying you want the lawyer, but if you can't remember to keep your own mouth shut, that's on you.
Active Self Protection Extra wait so you dont believe in registering your firearm? How come, if anything it'll only cover your ASP even more having had a record of being trained to carry a registered firearm..
I totally agreed with Mas. He seemed reasonable, minimum, middle of the road. It seems absolutely correct. I think I'll need lots of these videos to sway me. Maybe the best answer is ask the cop "do you think I need to call my lawyer?" If he says yes, then listen to him. If he says no, then you k ow he's out to hang you and say even less.
All good advice. Even if you’re absolutely justified, you may not even remember the conversation you have with the cop/detective at the scene. You’ll be too stressed out. Let your calm, cool headed lawyer, do the communicating for you.
If the bodycam of an officer picks up your conversation with a lawyer (whether or not it was an accident that the officer got close enough for the body cam to pick it up) would that be fruit of the poisonous tree and not admissible because you're talking with your attorney?
Also keep in mind that the 911 operator IS NOT required to give Maranda Warnings and everything you say in ON TAPE. The State's Attorney will listen to it and what you say "can be used against you"
These are great videos and it’s very awesome that you guys do them for gun owners. Because it is such a touchy subject. I guess best or worst case scenario everybody should put up at least one or two cameras that record with motion outside and inside their house in order to prove the intentions of the perpetrator. But also, they can be used against you if you do something wrong or try to plant evidence. So, don’t do anything stupid if you decide that you want to put these cameras up… Because if there is video evidence of you doing anything out of the ordinary, it will be held against you. As well as, if those video cameras were working the day before and up to or even through the shooting and then mysteriously stop working… Again, evidence against you. Making it look like you purposely unplugged the cameras to hide something. Which is the awesomely incredible knowledge that these guys are teaching you About absolutely making sure that firing upon an individual is the last case scenario. Basically, make sure it’s you or them, with no question as to the validity of your gun fire. I’ve got cameras up in my homes and my condo specifically for this purpose. Especially with what is happening in the world right now, and just to make sure that all of my bases are covered if those worst case scenarios were to come up. I will absolutely warn anybody who is not welcome in my home who decides that they are going to enter and threaten me that they will have a very quick 25 to 40 rounds coming at them if they choose to do so. Which is the best thing you can possibly do. Warn them and maybe even take a warning shot to let them know you’re serious. What I have in my homes is one magazine that is loaded with two or three blanks that are just as noisy as the actual ammo, to let them know what could happen to them very soon if they don’t choose to make the right decision. Then every bullet after that is a real one. So they have two or three opportunities to turn around and figure something else out. Which I suggest everybody does. One magazine that has two or three blanks and the rest being actual ammo. Which is a good warning to anybody who is illegally entering your home that they may have come to the wrong location. So thank you guys for doing these. They are very informative and let people know that it’s not OK if they decide to open fire on somebody who is outside stealing a bicycle from the property. And maybe that is legal in some states, I don’t know. But you better have a very good reason for firing upon and possibly killing that person in front of you.
concealed carry class summed it up - cops don't need a statement from you at the scene but they'll want one. they have a thousand other things to do while you wait for a lawyer, such as identify and talk to witnesses, forensics, investigation actions, surveillance cameras in the area, etc. Just ask for the lawyer and that's it as he states in the video.
TL DR summary invoke right to remain silent, request attorney, request medical attention at scene, have contact information for attorney on your person.
Awesome and great vid. Great points and yes shutting up is the best thing. I know many offenders that I work with that admit their mouths were a part of their downfall
This is such a great video. As a law-abiding 'good guy' i've always felt it was sort of a challenge or aggressive thing to say "I wanna talk to my lawyer"". This video has really opened my eyes and I actually feel a little bit safer for having seen it. The biggest take away from this is that saying i want my lawer is just par for the course for cops and not seen as some sort of admission of wrong doing.
Oh, no! Do not think that at all!! It is most definately what they do, but they are not happy at all that their "suspect" or "perp" is declining their opportunity to incriminate themselves under the intense interviewing skills they have been taught and use every day.
I think ideally, the situation to be in, is if the immediate evidence that this was Defense of life from immediate harm that the responding officers decide not to press charges and let you go. I've seen that happen several times but you can't count on that so this is a good talk about it. Who were those lawyers that say on repeat? "If a cop wants to question you, shut the f*** up. If they wanna search your vehicle, decline and shut the f*** up. If they want to talk about your day, tell them you're not here to talk about your day and shut the f*** up. Never talk to police."
Not making a statement to the police until later and through an attorney is the same advice all law enforcement and justice system professionals give their children and loved ones. They also have that as a privilege as a matter of policy or procedure in many cases but you don't.
Does having a self defense lawyer on speed dial give the wrong impression to jurors and will prosecution use that to say you were looking for trouble or you wouldn’t have a lawyer before the fact
This is an excellent contrast between how a cop looks at things and how a lawyer looks at things.
Yup. Just watched the Ayoob vid. I was shaking my head. He just wants to make his (cops's) job easier. They don't care if you're innocent or guilty, they just want to go home alive.
Massad Ayoob wrong, Marc Victor right.
@@LTVoyager Whether he's correct about Ayoob's character and perspective is arguable. But the fact is Ayoob's advice in this case couldn't be more wrong and is, in actuality, completely indefensible.
@@LTVoyager I will take the advice of defense attorneys who defend folks accused of citizens facing trial for defending themselves over that of Ayoob, who has never practiced law every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Ayoob's advice is based on the farcical notion that the first responders have a say in whether you will be charge or not - and that is, indeed, a most farcical notion. You are overwhelmingly more likely to say something that you will hurt your chances of avoiding charges than you are to say something that will be in the least bit beneficial. It's not complicated. STFU. Call your attorney and let him do the talking on your behalf.
@@chuckschillingvideos Most defense attorneys spend their entire career defending guilty people. Very, very rarely do they encounter someone innocent. They advise people this way because 99% of their clients are guilty of the crime they are arrested for. Unless you're dealing with an attorney whose entire practice involves (in truth) self-defense homicide cases, I would not trust them further than you can throw them.
It's important to note that if you talk to your attorney in a public place - the DA can have those witnesses testify as to what you said on the phone. SO, if you talk to your attorney, it needs to be in a place where others can't hear what you say.
Ok, but that should be dismissable as being hearsay then right?
@@aarons7975 no, that is not what hearsay is.
Hearsay is a statement from someone that is not in the courtroom, it's like a rumor.
The defendant, would be in the courtroom and anyone who heard what the defendant said first-hand can bear witness to the conversation and what they told the attorney. This does not constitute as hearsay.
Hearsay is like a rumor, so if you're in court testifying against the defendant and your testimony starts with the words "Johnny told me that the defendant said x." That was from someone else's account, not yours, and that is hearsay.
If you actually heard the defendant say something in person, that is admissable and you can bear witness to that in court.
It's the same exact thing as if you saw someone climb in a window at a burglary. You can bear witness to what they looked like etc.
@@ethan.... interesting
This is a great lesson that extends to life in general. Keep your trap shut. You always have a opportunity to speak your piece after you’ve had time to think about what you’re saying.
This guy is spitting straight facts. John is sort of seeing every scenario in a perfect world where everyone knows you're innocent but the attorney is right! Anything you say can and WILL be used against you.
I was assaulted at my job and the biggest mistake I made was go to the police... the officer kept implying that I was at fault even after I constantly corrected him and restated myself... in mediation they kept putting the blame on me because the officer wrote what he wanted to. Case was dismissed with no punishment towards my co-worker. The only good thing is my job did let him go.
A lot of police will do that to victims of sexual assault and rape as well. Unfortunately humans have to police themselves, and sometimes a cop is unfit and shouldn't have the job. Sometimes they're actually criminals that wear a badge because someone was dumb enough to allow them to. They're human and humans are a wide variety of things. I do think that allowing every officer the ability to arrest someone in a felony offense js something that should be reviewed. Detain, yes, formally charge with a crime, that should be changed in my opinion.
A prosecutors job is to prosecute, it isn't to determine if someone committed a crime or not, that should fall to a court, but it doesn't, it falls to the police officer that showed up. A judge should make that call, and that's what is supposed to happen at an initial bail review, but that's not what happens there either. Many times a commissioner or magistrate won't ever consider dismissing charges and letting someone go, but that technically is part of the process, or at least is supposed to be, though most of them only feel like they should decide if the person gets a bail or stays in jail with no bail until a second review, so they automatically feel like it's not their job to dismiss a case. When in fact that is part of their job.
I agree 100% with what the lawyer. Police do make mistakes when reporting and recording information. Several years ago I was involved in a traffic accident, two police officers examined my jeep and told me, didn’t ask me, but told me I wasn’t wearing a seatbelt. When I told him that I always wear my seatbelt they pretty much called me a liar. When I tried to notify the other person‘s insurance I found out that the officer had completely flubbed it up, and it was up to me to straighten it out. They had written down the wrong insurance company, the wrong policy number, everything!
IMO that kind of thing is worth a formal complaint and a call to local media. I know it's a hassle when you're all ready dealing with insurance, but if we don't consistently hold them accountable the quality of policing will continue to be low.
@Red Neck Yet the words of police officers in the courts are always taken as law without question even when police officers are lying,right?
@@nelsonechevarria7009 not necessarily.
But if you flib up the facts or story they got YOU. funny how that works.
As a member of Firearms Legal Protection I can tell you their program is top notch in value and gives you direct access to Mr. Victor for council which would normally costs THOUSANDS just to speak with him let alone hire for defense. 100% recommend them.
IM IN MARYLAND WHY DONT THEY OFFER SERVICE IN MARYLAND? WTAF?
Do they operate in the northeast?
New Jersey tries every trick in the book to keep these firms out of the state.
Agree everything you say to your attorney is privileged (With limited exceptions)with one important caveat - do not speak to your attorney in the presence of a third-party i.e. the cops. If you are on the phone make sure the LEO cannot overhear you talking to your attorney. Everything you say in the presence of a police officer investigating a crime is admissible into evidence.
Negative! That point was covered in this video.
@@steveonrock But would they use what you said to try to gain evidence against you? Not legal but if they hear it they may use it without disclosing the fact that they heard it.
@@phillhuddleston9445 I think it's because he said the police are required to give you "space" (e.g. go off to another room unheard) to talk with your attorney
@@ErrantChordier Good luck with that one because I seriously doubt the police are going to give anybody any kind of "space".Even at police stations what people say is always recorded.What the police do is not always in line with what the police must do/should do.If you are ever unfortunate enough to be taken by police to the police station and placed in an interrogation room always keep in mind that the fact that you may be left alone in a police station interrogation room is no guarantee that what you say even if just thinking aloud will not be recorded.
I'm so glad you put Ayoob's recommendations up to a head-on challenge since he is so well known for his good advice! Mr Victor's advice seems great as well. I like the simplicity of Mr. Victor's advice, but I also really like Mr. Ayoob's thinking that you might be the only one at the scene able to point out key details while they are fresh (look under that bush for his knife!).
Mr Victor summed it up well by saying it is hard to have a blanket statement that applies to every situation...but then asserted that not talking is always correct :)
Hearing both in contrast was a great way to get me thinking critically. Thanks for the education!!
Well said. But I'm going with Mas Ayoob's advice. To not state you were the victim or point out evidence isn't logical and, rightly or wrongly, makes one "appear" guilty in many people's eyes. (Prosecutor: "Is it true you mentioned NOTHING about.... when LE arrived?" etc.) As a juror, I'd find that strange. Granted, you shouldn't say much. Mas is a true self-defense expert and has testified successfully in many self-defense court cases. Even my USCCA self-defense insurance card says to state you were attacked, feared for your life, and had to defend yourself, and to point out witnesses and evidence. Then request medical assistance if you need it, and state you will cooperate fully after you speak with your attorney.
I've attended several gun law seminars that had self defense attorneys speaking, and they gave the same advice as Ayoob. So did my local firearm course instructor.
This attorney just doesn't ring my chimes, but that may just be me. Isn't he the one who was confused and thought, or certainly implied that he thought, the right to carry meant it was okay to brandish or threaten the victim in one of the early videos? "Criminal defense" expert does not necessarily equate to "Self-defense" expert. (One of my children is an attorney, btw.) In general, criminal clients aren't there because they were involved in a self-defense scenario; they were caught committing a crime and probably shouldn't say a word. I mean no disrespect and don't doubt he's a fine criminal defense attorney, as he described himself in this video.
I'm glad to see John debate sometimes in these "John's Briefs" videos, as when John was advocating for carrying with a round in the chamber and the attorney was advising not to do that. The self defense attorneys that I've heard speak all said they carry with a round chambered, btw, as does my child who is an attorney. Yes, I know legal opinions can differ; I just often don't agree with his.
abc No way, dude. Never talk to the police, I’ve NEVER heard any attorney say it’s ok to talk to a cop right after an incident happened. DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE. They are not your friends. In your 911 call you would have said something like “someone broke into my house and I discharged my firearm” for example. That’s enough. Let them handcuff you and take you in, an arrest is not a charge.
@@c0mputer An 'arrest' is part of your record until you die. Anyone requesting a background check on you (i.e. applying for a job) will see that 'arrest'. Whether you are charged or booked or anything after the fact... the 'arrest' will remain. That alone will provide you with lots of issues down the road.
@@abc-wv4in Me too. ACLDN member!!!!!!!
This is almost the same thing my cousin told me who is an Attorney. The cops only need to hear one word, "You will speak with my Lawyer. I am remaining silent as is my right." Then let them cuff you and take you to the station for processing. DO NOT TALK WITH ANYONE OTHER THAN YOUR LAWYER AND OBEY THEIR ADVICE!
I like your advice. People think that the goal is not to be arrested, cuffed and taken to jail. Nothing you say will stop that from happening. The fight is in court for your innocence NOT to avoid going to jail.
Haven't started the video yet but already liked. I'm an AZ resident and have been following Marc and watching/listening to his lectures/videos for several years and been subscribed to John's channel for the last few years, awesome to see you 2 doing something together!
Public criticism can be awkward (constructive or otherwise). I am glad John’s ego is as secure as Mr. Victors advice. As a “Talker” I needed to hear this. Thank you.
Yeah their favorite trick is to not ask questions but make statements, usually inflammatory. You'll be tempted to correct them and that's the same thing as spilling your guts during questioning.
I was told that researching this kind of stuff is a waste of time, time well spent. Thank you ASP
Glad to help!
Cops are professionals at interviews they have done it hundreds of times as most of us are a complete novice. So u are so outmatched u need your own professional because we don’t know all the pitfalls/traps... FYI
Cops are allowed to lie & you aren't, 1 lie or mispoken word that can be spun can bury you. Expect to sit in jail for up to 48 hours without charge.
@@kasimjarkai7807 Actually there are several laws that can be put against you for lying to the police. You just decided to be lazy and lie out your ass instead of searching for something that would taken 5 seconds to google.
www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defense/crime-penalties/lie-police-friend.htm
Cops are not expert interviewers, however prosecutors are experts at twisting words. But they can't twist words you didn't speak.
One word...... LAWYER!
What about when it's non lethal, you're the victim, the perp is blabbing so the cop is under pressure to respond to their (lying) complaint, and the cop just wants something from you at the scene so they can understand what happened and decide whether to charge or arrest someone?
This is a GREAT video!!! Awesome work. Those miranda rights are legit. ANYTHING you say CAN and WILL be used AGAINST you. Never says it will be used to help you lol.
Yeah, it's a warning for a reason. :)
For legal reasons, nothing you say can be used to help you in court. It will be used against you, and cannot be used to help you.
Read that again a few more times and let it sink in deep!
@@rosebarnes9625 Yep 100%. Info you shared that may be helpful in court will be considered "hear say" in the court and will be dismissed. If it hurts you...game on. It's crazy.
[Hear Say - Noun - information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor.]
Marc Victor did an outstanding job explaining the proper response. When I was a new officer I had the opportunity to speak to a local prosecutor and ask him what he would do if involved in a shooting. His response was “there is no way you are going to talk your way out of this and not get cuffed and taken down to the police station regardless of how perfectly justifiable it was. So there is no benefit for you saying anything at the scene. Secondly, anything your attorney says on your behalf can’t be used against you so shut up and let your attorney do all the talking.” As I progressed in my career and got more experience I realized how right he was. So many times I witnessed people giving statements in the heat of the moment and they didn’t realize they were contradicting themselves or the evidence. None of that works to your favor.
Yeah that part about what your attorney says not being able to be held against you is important.
Invoking the right to stay silent & have an attorney, is the highest leverage
Your attorney can say things to authorities that YOU cannot. They are “members of the Court.” You are not.
“I will respectfully REFUSE to speak to you. I want my attorney.”
Say nothing more. There is ENORMOUS TEMPTATION to be verbose. This is an entirely normal behavioral phenomenon.
Take some deep breaths. Control your breathing. Accept the handcuffs. Be prepared to be pushed into the squad car. Concentrate on relaxing. SAY NOTHING.
Everything you say will be held against you. I mean everything.
Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
Wow! I have been carrying for a long time, and never had to defend myself with a firearm. This is an eye opening video. Thank you
John, I really can't thank you enough for posting
up videos with information like this, PRICELESS!!!
Thank you so much! I look forward to watching
and learning more.
Be safe!
Randy
Thanks Randy!
USCCA member here
Ditto. Can't put a price on peace of mind.
Me too.
Me too.
Are you able to tell how much they pay out per year? How many cases are won vs lost? How can you tell?
John, another great interview! As I have said elsewhere, firearms are perhaps the 2nd most politicized aspect of American life. The "life after defensive force" for the rest of your life really depends upon the jurisdiction and the politics of firearms (e.g. District Attorney's future campaigns, U.S. Attorney's future political aspirations). Great advise. I, too, carry several participating attorneys' phone numbers, and the 800 number for my firearm defensive risk financing (e.g. insurance). Keep up the great work.
Great video and discussion, John. The more I hear this stuff the more it gets ingrained in me, so hopefully I do all the right things, if I'm ever involved in "a situation." Thank you for the great work you do!
That's the goal!
Great information!
Hadn’t though this deep about the after fight.
Thinks for the tips
Wow, I had not thought of most of that..thank you, sir.
Never talk to the police.
PERIOD
John, outstanding video and advise!! Thanks bud, keep up the great work!!
"The system doesn't care about you", absolutely true! And, there is no justice, only the law, and the law is not justice, in the USA.
Pete Gonzales Marc this was a very helpful information that made a lot of sense to me about not talking to the police after a self defense shooting.Thank you for your attorney advice.
Extremely informative 18 minutes, you can tell he has been doing this for awhile. Thank you
Another great video! I have seen Marc in a lot of videos, the guy is great!
I love these videos! They cover what I believe as an often overlooked part of self defense.
Thanks! That's why we're making them...to put that info out there.
John is 100% SPOT-ON, CORRECT!
Very valuable information thanks
Excellent video, John. I had just watched your interview with Massad and was confused...this cleared it up for me, thank you.
Never underestimate the power of taking a deep breath
These videos are great. The legal battle happens as soon as the round leaves the gun.
Before, really. What you did and said prior to the use of force matters, and will make a difference to the investigators and the prosecutors.
One of the best and most important videos you have uploaded!
Tremendous advice! Nothing you say will help you but anything you say can and WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU. Keep it zipped.
Thanks for this excellent advice.
Glad to help!
Thunder Ranch, cadre: Clint Smith advises CCW-gun owners to clearly state they are the victim & want to press charges/ID the attacker-attackers at the scene. It helps establish you as the victim or defender.
I'd add it's a + that this AZ atty brings up how sworn LE may lie or distort things at the scene. I'd add that 911-dispatch centers are TRAINED to keep a CCW user/shooter talking. They want to have a "spontaneous remark".
My experience has been they already have set in their mind when they arrive who is the "perp" and who is the "victim" and nothing you say will change thier mind... you may be able to cement what they thought (either way) but if they arrive thinking you are the "perp" you will never change that by talking....
The first time I've ever disagreed with John, great video!
So . . . that's one of the *hidden costs* of being a a firearms owner / carrier. Having an attorney on retainer *CONSTANTLY* . . . *BEFORE* any life threatening situation happens to you. Once it happens and you *don't* have a lawyer in your "corner" ??? . . . i wouldn't want to be in that position to say the least.
Yep.
Fun Fact: things you say to police BEFORE they read your Miranda rights can still be used against you. Its difficult but not impossible to get that stuff thrown out of court.
This is awesome. The details are king.
I finally went ahead and sign up for US law shield
I was trained by my step brother who is retired state police & was a range instructor for several years of that. He trains to tell the officers responding to say nothing except "I want to comply but will say nothing at this time until I speak to my lawyer." Put that on repeat like a record player & say nothing else. You will get cuffed & stuffed & say NOTHING until you speak to lawyer then let him do the talking after that. Great advice John!
Hell no. That's way too much to remember. Just say nothing. Nothing at all.
@@chuckschillingvideos Funny how so much can change from 11 months ago when I left that comment. That was training in a "normal" America & i agreed with it. Now, i think i would just be mute & deaf 😉
@@RomeoGSP Oh, I totally get it. Ideally, we would all be rewarded for doing the "right, conscientious" thing and cooperating with police and investigators at the scene. But that's just not how things work these days - at least not something you can bet your freedom upon.
Seen a lot of interrogation footage of guys who think they committed a justified shooting and then talked themselves right into prison. Lawyer first.
I love Masad Ayoob, but this is brilliant in how quickly an attorney who's actually defended people in court shuts down the simplicity with which so many of you subscribe to his "principles", say this, don't say that based on his teachings. I have been waiting for someone to show the other side of what IU preachers and here it is. When John says of course if you murdered someone shut up, if it was a bad shoot don't say anything but like this attorney points out, in that moment you may not know whether it was a good or bad shoot, plus you're not the subject matter expert on the thing, that's going to be the prosecutor who chooses to try or not try you. I like this fellows initial approach far better than the standard "say this don't say that" even those who in the past make such bold claims as most cops don't know anything about the laws regarding the use of deadly force, which is absolutely not true.
Great advice and video! Keep up the great work!
Thank you! Will do!
I don’t know Arizona law, but there is one very important consideration for attorney-client privilege. If you make statements to your attorney with third-parties present then the third parties may be called to testify and that hearsay testimony may come in (statements against penal interest, excited utterance, etc). Just something to think about if you do decide to call your attorney at the scene.
I thought about that as well. Never speak in front of police. Everything will be used against you.
After a critical incident you are most likely experiencing fight or flight symptoms. An adrenaline dump causes energy to course your body. Jittery, shakey, pacing, tremors etc. Your body wants to find ways to burn off that energy. It is very natural to want to pop off at the mouth. That can jam you up unintentionally.
"I am invoking my right to counsel."
So say your with your spouse or family and they were there for the entire event, should they keep their mouth shut as well or should they cooperate as a "witness" and explain what they seen from their point of view?
I'm surprised you haven't gotten a response/answer yet. It's been a year!
I'd like to see a good answer for this as well. I would think they shouldn't say anything either, although I'm not sure if there are any legal pitfalls or requirements with them being witnesses.
Anyone at the scene is a potential suspect and therefore entitled to exercise their 5th Amendment rights. That may change over time, but at the scene anyone who cares about you will keep their mouths shut until counsel is obtained.
None say anything and that shd be discussed with family before an incident. At a family meeting. If x ever happens do not speak to the police. We will speak to attorney first
No.
They also request an attorney.
Not everybody has an attorney to talk too so they would have to find one.most wont help without money
I'd really like to hear the same discussion on what to say when you call 911. I think there are two versions that need to be discussed. (1) A post shooting call to 911 and (2) a pre shooting call to 911. For example you hear someone breaking in and you call 911 but during the call the situation escalates to a self defense shooting.
I guess UA-cam reads my comments because the next time iIopened UA-cam the top suggested video was "How Your 911 Call Can Get You Sent to Prison (John’s Briefs) | ASP Extra"
This guy sounds responsible.. lol I love you John.
Marc Victor is a great guy & attorney.
This is GREAT info, thanks John.
If you are in any doubt as to the correct course of action, just keep rewinding the bit where it is said that if the police find themselves in a legally questionable position they are specifically told/instructed not to say anything until a lawyer turns up.
They're pretty much told universally not to make a statement immediately.
Nothing you say at the scene can help you - it can only hurt you.
I think Massad’s rationale for talking to law enforcement is solid!!!
I took a CCW class years ago and the instructor told us a story about a student who was convinced the police would force her to say something no matter what. Turns out she’d been watching too much tv. He followed that up with another story about a man who said he was too distressed to talk, and that was it.
I hate to say it but I totally agree with the lawyer... the law and cops ,prosecutors u just don’t know. Just be quiet as possible.
I'm a cop and I agree. You never ever talk to the police, even if you happen to be one. Doesn't mean you have to be a jerk, you just don't talk until you talk to a lawyer. Ever. Period.
I think people are mistakenly trying to avoid going directly to jail.
Or if they don't have a lawyer or money; sitting in Jail until you do get assigned one.
Once again stack your chip$ and support system ahead of time.
His advice is great.
Excellent channel John .
God bless .
awesome content, I just changed my card to say I want to speak to my attorney.thank you guys!
Our pleasure!
One thing I think he should have added: remember, after demanding to speak to your lawyer, when you shut up: *STAY* *SHUT* *UP.* Sometimes the cops will be like "well, I gotta take you to the station", "hey, you want some Burger King on the way?" -- they might try to open you up, because if you start talking *on your own,* that's still just as admissible. The cop is no longer allowed to question you about the events after saying you want the lawyer, but if you can't remember to keep your own mouth shut, that's on you.
People have *such* a hard time shutting up. Cortisol left over after a defensive gun use causes logorrhea, and that's hard to fight.
This was a great discussion
Great video, all registered owners of firearms should watch this. Thanks.
Registered!? EW!
Active Self Protection Extra wait so you dont believe in registering your firearm? How come, if anything it'll only cover your ASP even more having had a record of being trained to carry a registered firearm..
Active Self Protection Extra that was my literal response reading this comment
Med Life has history taught you anything?
ACLDN Member here.
Good stuff. Thank you for this.
Very informative video. Thank you!
"I feared for my life"... then, "I need to contact my attorney before I answer any questions". That's it PERIOD.
Remember that first sentence is not a magic formula.
Very valuable insight. Thanks!
Always always always go with what a lawyer says over what non lawyer experts say.
ASP Extra why isn't Marc Victor on the show anymore? He is my favorite lawyer you've ever had on show.
He’s busy doing his own thing and running for office and changing the world with his live and let live movement.
I totally agreed with Mas. He seemed reasonable, minimum, middle of the road. It seems absolutely correct. I think I'll need lots of these videos to sway me.
Maybe the best answer is ask the cop "do you think I need to call my lawyer?" If he says yes, then listen to him. If he says no, then you k ow he's out to hang you and say even less.
😂
This is great very helpful information thankyou
You're welcome!
been waiting for this one, thanks!
All good advice. Even if you’re absolutely justified, you may not even remember the conversation you have with the cop/detective at the scene. You’ll be too stressed out. Let your calm, cool headed lawyer, do the communicating for you.
If the bodycam of an officer picks up your conversation with a lawyer (whether or not it was an accident that the officer got close enough for the body cam to pick it up) would that be fruit of the poisonous tree and not admissible because you're talking with your attorney?
Also keep in mind that the 911 operator IS NOT required to give Maranda Warnings and everything you say in ON TAPE. The State's Attorney will listen to it and what you say "can be used against you"
Yep.
Looking for a similar vid for someone trained in martial arts and the injuries to an attacker during a self defense event.
These are great videos and it’s very awesome that you guys do them for gun owners. Because it is such a touchy subject. I guess best or worst case scenario everybody should put up at least one or two cameras that record with motion outside and inside their house in order to prove the intentions of the perpetrator. But also, they can be used against you if you do something wrong or try to plant evidence. So, don’t do anything stupid if you decide that you want to put these cameras up… Because if there is video evidence of you doing anything out of the ordinary, it will be held against you. As well as, if those video cameras were working the day before and up to or even through the shooting and then mysteriously stop working… Again, evidence against you. Making it look like you purposely unplugged the cameras to hide something.
Which is the awesomely incredible knowledge that these guys are teaching you About absolutely making sure that firing upon an individual is the last case scenario. Basically, make sure it’s you or them, with no question as to the validity of your gun fire.
I’ve got cameras up in my homes and my condo specifically for this purpose. Especially with what is happening in the world right now, and just to make sure that all of my bases are covered if those worst case scenarios were to come up. I will absolutely warn anybody who is not welcome in my home who decides that they are going to enter and threaten me that they will have a very quick 25 to 40 rounds coming at them if they choose to do so. Which is the best thing you can possibly do. Warn them and maybe even take a warning shot to let them know you’re serious. What I have in my homes is one magazine that is loaded with two or three blanks that are just as noisy as the actual ammo, to let them know what could happen to them very soon if they don’t choose to make the right decision. Then every bullet after that is a real one. So they have two or three opportunities to turn around and figure something else out. Which I suggest everybody does. One magazine that has two or three blanks and the rest being actual ammo. Which is a good warning to anybody who is illegally entering your home that they may have come to the wrong location.
So thank you guys for doing these. They are very informative and let people know that it’s not OK if they decide to open fire on somebody who is outside stealing a bicycle from the property. And maybe that is legal in some states, I don’t know. But you better have a very good reason for firing upon and possibly killing that person in front of you.
Sounds like a good way to start a gun fight..
concealed carry class summed it up - cops don't need a statement from you at the scene but they'll want one. they have a thousand other things to do while you wait for a lawyer, such as identify and talk to witnesses, forensics, investigation actions, surveillance cameras in the area, etc. Just ask for the lawyer and that's it as he states in the video.
TL DR summary invoke right to remain silent, request attorney, request medical attention at scene, have contact information for attorney on your person.
Shut up and lawyer up, be polite, stay firm, say I want to speak to my attorney.
Great video great information
Thanks!
Great information here. I've had legal protection insurance for several years now. Helps me sleep at night. ;-)
Good advice. I wish I could see what’s on the back of his card. 🤔
Probably have to pay for it.
How do u feel about firearms legal vs uscca?
Awesome and great vid. Great points and yes shutting up is the best thing. I know many offenders that I work with that admit their mouths were a part of their downfall
NEVER USE SOMEONE ELSE'S PHONE TO HAVE A PRIVLAGED DISCUSSION!!!!! I can not stress that enough.
This is such a great video. As a law-abiding 'good guy' i've always felt it was sort of a challenge or aggressive thing to say "I wanna talk to my lawyer"". This video has really opened my eyes and I actually feel a little bit safer for having seen it. The biggest take away from this is that saying i want my lawer is just par for the course for cops and not seen as some sort of admission of wrong doing.
Oh, no! Do not think that at all!!
It is most definately what they do, but they are not happy at all that their "suspect" or "perp" is declining their opportunity to incriminate themselves under the intense interviewing skills they have been taught and use every day.
Or, you could get a rookie Cop that doesn't have enough experience, when someone asks for an attorney....
I think ideally, the situation to be in, is if the immediate evidence that this was Defense of life from immediate harm that the responding officers decide not to press charges and let you go. I've seen that happen several times but you can't count on that so this is a good talk about it. Who were those lawyers that say on repeat? "If a cop wants to question you, shut the f*** up. If they wanna search your vehicle, decline and shut the f*** up. If they want to talk about your day, tell them you're not here to talk about your day and shut the f*** up. Never talk to police."
Police pretend to be your friend like a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Great content
Not making a statement to the police until later and through an attorney is the same advice all law enforcement and justice system professionals give their children and loved ones. They also have that as a privilege as a matter of policy or procedure in many cases but you don't.
Does having a self defense lawyer on speed dial give the wrong impression to jurors and will prosecution use that to say you were looking for trouble or you wouldn’t have a lawyer before the fact
Sad to learn FLP does not have any services in TN. Any other suggestions?
They're on their way.
Thank you
I would like to have seen Mas’ arguments put more specifically to this guy.
ua-cam.com/video/Hjm6FRzE35I/v-deo.html
@@ASPextra cheers