Good topic, and well informed take. Two BIG comments on this. 1) The assumption that what you say at nomikai stays there and it is the only place people can be open and honest is true for middle managers up, but not for subordinates. Kohais are expected to still use keigo, make sure superiors drinks are full, arrange stuff with staff, and take the shit of the bosses, and yeah, for work drinks in my early years here, I found that alcohol just added to the stress of an already stressful experience. I learned a few months in that people who didn't like to drink, or attend altogether would say "I REALLY want to drink but I'm taking cold medicine" to get out of it and so I perpetually used it, eventually accepting the "social tax" that comes with that. However that then comes to point two: 2) In my 25 years, there has been a MAJOR shift in drinking culture in Japan. In the early 2000s it was mandatory, enforced, and even poor Japanese folks without the enzyme to process alcohol would go and people regularly got sick. Then in the late 2000s with what seemed to my view to coincide with govt campaigns around power harassment, suddenly mandatory karaoke and stuff disappeared, and drinking parties suddenly had pitchers of tea in equal number to beer, and half my colleagues would join but choose not to have alcohol. This is what I saw in Tokyo. And it corresponded with seeing far less "Shibuya Meltdown" scenes in public. And then in the 2010s it went a step further, with new hires not only not drinking, but not even showing up! And as you alluded to, by around 2020, the government was seemingly starting to worry that youth non-drinking was going to put Japan's beer megacorporations out of business and was talking about how to encourage young people to drink. Nomikais now are generally more privately arranged, and I only attend full work functions a couple of times per year. And at those, a significant proportion of people, including older people, stick to tea. I think it is a dramatic and positive cultural change in Japan, although I think it also means people are also less connected. That said, I'm aware you're in Kagoshima which probably has a more robust drinking culture surviving than Tokyo does. But I'm glad the old style pressure to drink has nearly gone. Love your videos always sir!
Very interesting comment for someone who just moved to Japan, thank you! You said, the rule "what happens at a nomikai stays at a nomikai" isn't really true. Could you expand on that from your personal experience? I don't work in a Japanese company (yet, thank god), but I enjoy getting to chat with people in Japanese I meet at bars. And they are definitely a lot more open after drinking alcohol. Although, in my personal experience, Taxi drivers have been a good ressource as well. They seem to have a lot less of a filter then other people and will just tell you anything from the heart, once you start talking to them a little.
@@seregruin The rest of point 1 past the 1st half of the 1st sentence expands on that from their personal experience. They don't say "isn't really true", you need to re-read it. ~"is true for middle managers up, but not for subordinates. "
> That said, I'm aware you're in Kagoshima I was under the impression that Dogen lives in the outskirts of Beppu, and he spent many years at Ritsumeikan APU, also in Beppu
@@unixtreme I think the comedy skits ahnd their dry humor on different aspects of Japanese culture greatly compliment more serious and nuanced videos lyke this'n. Knowing someone has a propensity towards goofy humor, but can reign that in to be straightforward ahnd to the point once in a while is an enticing dynamic 🤙
I bet it would be easily possible to make a comedy skit out of responding to an invitation to nomikai with a rant about honne, insinuation about ulterior motives, etc. (itself demonstrating the ranter's honne in a socially unexpected situation!)
I came to realize that this is part of the reason why many anime are so over the top. They are loud, bombastic, they roll their tongue aggressively in their speech, they do all these things because this is what many Japanese people themselves want to do. It’s a form of escapism from their own societal woes. Seeing that helped me understand why we in America don’t have that kind of escapism in media as much. We have different societal issues, and our own media addresses those instead.
Yeah I've had the impression for a long time that Japanese entertainment can get so weird and wacky because it was an outlet for the people living in a very socially conservative society to vicariously have weird and wacky adventures. But it kind of gets a little sad when you see so many modern Japanese romances and romcoms are just about simple relationships. Like it appeals to Japanese people who are so lonely that they dream about just having simple and basic relationships.
@@DavidCruickshank to be fair, that genre was around long before it became a manga/anime fad. A Connecticut Yakee in King Arthur's Court is over 100 years old. The John Carter of Mars books and copycats were very popular in the pulp era
"We accept foreigners, provided the foreigner is doing their best to act like us." Such an important, core concept of assimilation that bears repeating. Whether you're a tourist or want to consider this place your home - either is ok, but a home needs to be loved and respected all the time. This requires devotion and can be difficult! Both ways require honesty. Good video.
I came in here thinking i'd hear a joke with a punchline at the end. I left learning about cultural differences between Japan and the US. Great video Dogen-sama!
@@Dogen A lot of people seem to be asking the same question: Is it acceptable to just get a non-alcoholic drink (especially if I have medical issues)? How about doing another video that addresses that question, if not just for more of that sweet ad and sponsorship revenue? Haha. "For you non-drinkers, Tippsy's snack set especially tastes great with メロン soda!" I'm under the impression that some commenters feel that Japan is this unreasonable rigid monolith of conformity that would rather have foreigners go to the hospital or get arrested for DUI before accepting a refusal to order alcohol at a nomikai. Lol. Btw, moved back to Japan in September and your video on earthquakes has helped me to start my emergency preparations!
I think there's actually more to it than just "blowing off steam" or "being part of the group" (though those are definitely factors). You hinted at it a few times but didn't seem to actually explicitly make the connection: Situations like these where people can actually speak honestly with each other are also *required for 建前 to actually work properly,* too. They are opportunities for Japanese people to _learn_ about their friends and coworkers _so that they can properly consider their needs and feelings_ the rest of the time. If my coworker is bothered by cigarette smoke, how do I know to avoid smoking around her, if she doesn't tell me? But she'll never tell me normally, so I'll never know that that's something I should be considering. If my other colleague is going through a messy breakup, that's something he's not going to be broadcasting to the whole office. Arguably, it's none of my business and I shouldn't even ask, even if I suspect something. But then how can I be considerate of him and try to support him, if I don't even know what's going on in his life? That's what these parties are really for. They allow the people involved to actually _understand_ each other _so that they can be properly considerate of each other's needs_ in the outside, everyday world, even though they're not allowed to tell people what their needs are there. There is an unspoken agreement that "what happens here stays here", but everyone also knows that's not actually true. They will never actually say it, but they do still (usually) remember, and that's actually important and necessary too. This is the mechanism that _allows people to be kind to each other._ (And this is why if you don't participate, it's not just antisocial, but it actually _makes life harder_ for the people around you, because you are taking away from them one of the only tools they know how to use to know that they are being properly considerate and polite towards you the rest of the time, which is such an important thing to them, and it can just make them feel like they are walking through a minefield, or even like they are a social failure every time they try to interact with you.)
As a Japanese, I can say one thing. I do not drink alcohol and I do in fact deviate from groups from time to time. There’s a lot of judgement going on around you and some of them would literally just talk behind your back near you on purpose just to bash you a little bit. However, as a science student I don’t feel angry or feel the need to get revenge or anything. Since the group wants to push my social standing to low and they can’t, that’s what I call “the way of the weak”. Whether I’m weak or strong doesn’t matter as I only need to participate in emergencies. Whatever they say is just a small chemical reaction for them to release themselves from stress. Yes, earthquake is scary. Yes tsunami is scary and yes, volcano eruptions are scary. If they want to complain and use me to release their stresses through words, they can freely do so and I do welcome that. However if they get physically violent, I would not hesitate to disable them immediately. Once you live in Japan for a long time, you’ll keep hearing “空気を読めよ”. But trust me on this one, if you something is going to go wrong when you do what they do, don’t hesitate to ask them specifically what they want to do and for what purpose. It’s a small courtesy and if you don’t want to do it. Don’t hesitate to say no. Does that mean you’ll have less friends later? Absolutely. However you should also know how to not let all your emotions out just because I said that you don’t have to say yes to certain situation. What you need is not a fool proof method to stop you from getting forced to do something and let you let your emotions out. What you need is knowledge. The more you show yourself, the more they judge you. It’s human nature to judge something different. Whether it’s for the good or for the bad. But please remember if you’re a foreigner, even if you’re from a different culture; everyone here are a living organism with a brain that works just like everyone. Rejecting such culture to just say “Oh that’s Japanese” is the same as saying “Oh that’s how a cow does it, we’re better. We’re humans. We’re more alive”. It may not be your intentions but that’s what saying that carries. I also know that currently, people have short attention span so they like to simplify everything. But please I beg you with my knees and forehead on the ground. Please try to learn and think. This problem is not just with foreigners but Japanese people as well. I cannot count as to how many times I see someone end up with depression due to oversimplification in social settings. Some of them know this fact and used it to rise in social settings by getting rid of those with abilities while they themselves do not have such abilities. Ruining not just the place itself but the people working there. All for 1 month of feeling good and high.
see that's the odd thing... those habits you say? they're definitely present in itlaian culture as well. wanting to fit in is even strogner than in american culture and here it happens in all ranges of age, but not as much as japanese.. because despite the expectations being something present on a group-level (i.e. the southern italian mindset of "live and let live" which can bring rise to lots of illegal stuff just getting the pass "because it's not that bad at the end of the day, just live and let live") on a wider cultural and accademical level everyone knows that it's not a nice thing, that ostracism like that isn't the fault of the individual wo goes against the group's accepted norm, but an issue with society, so if you end up having that issue, as long as it's possible to do something about it, you won't be ignored for it, you will be addressed and, hopefully, gain the demanded respect. if you don't? well... i'm an autistic person, although i only got diagnosed at 17 years old my mother knew i had issues, but we just couldn't figure out what for the longest time. when i was a kid, apparently my mother would get oftne called from the principal due to not so much mmy misbehaviour, but rather due to a attitude that they perceived as isolationism(although i did do that when ii felt bullied, most of the time i just didn't want to or know how to interact with other kids. but that's the thing, the principal DID call, and wanted to hlep, even if they didn't really manage to do much if anything at all. later, i would one time have a stomach ache and call my mother to go back home, the language and math teacher present scolded and humiliated me in front of the class. legally speaking i could have very well sued her even though sueing is much harder in italy than i.e. usa, and i would have been in the right both legally and morally. in yet another school in middle school, as due to my habits in past schools at this point i just didn't care anymore, i both wasnt' doing physical activity nor cared much anymore about trying to do well at school academically, while it was a rather shoddy attempt, no classmate ever bothered me for that and the teachers sometimes did try to figure out what was my issue and help me in some very small and unforunately inconsequential ways. (admittedly, in middle school it's the teachers that get harrassed by kids rather than kids harrassing other kids...) in high school? while i only did 3 months of it, it started off with me being generally bullied by a small group of kids, i don't recall the specifics but i was often compared to a special needs dude in my class due to my (obviously, given i was often sleeping in class at that point) scores and behaviour. between one day where me and that guy had a fight and i admitted to my only friends there that i held back from actually hurting the guy by purposefully fighting inefficiently and most importantly(this i heard well long after i quit school) as apparently the kids there started thinking i was poor and generally an insufficient lifestyle at home, they started being far more friendly. maybe it was fear(although i was the one that "lost" in that latercation) but most likely? i think they just realized i had good reasons, my own reasons to go against the grain and not allow others to disrespect me, and that was enough to have people change their attitude. from what i'm hearing about japan though... a selective change in aptitude is not something you can expect from japanese people, EVEN if they end up understanding you and your needs or wants, even if them being polite is actually achieving the opposite result they intend to aim for with you/for the situation. i just can't like that and in some cases, find it hard to apoogize such behaviour, if these people(and i'm not saying just japanese people, but any person which doesn't match what i'm going to say next) are owners of a brain good enough that can analyze situations and act accordingly, form relationships and understand how different individual beings can be, ranging from personality to cultural background, from medical needs to life background, then what stops them from adjusting their habits and social expectations accordingly? respect is a mutual benefit "you get as much respect as you give, you give as much respect as you get"; if another person wants me to respect their culture, personality and behaviour, i expect them to do the same for my own, but i find that latter part is almost never done.
Interesting take. My take would be USA: You need to drink with me because drinking makes you cool (even though it doesn't) Japan: Drink with me so we can get to know each other.
I'd agree with point one (disclaimer: I don't drink, but people still invite me and it's not like anyone in America actually thinks drinking is the point) But for point two I do think it's really interesting to think about, at least from my experience with my Japanese friends, that they do have some paranoia about not knowing the real thoughts of their friends or colleagues if they can't drink with them. Like one of them once legitimately asked me about how we don't have the same drinking culture in America, and if not, how do you know what you're friends are thinking. I was pretty shocked by that, but it clicked. Our cultures are different in so many ways, it's so interesting.
Wow, there is so much excellent cultural information packed into this one! Just one point about recent changes in drinking culture here. Compared with 20 years ago when I first got here, there is considerably less pressure to consume alcohol now. It’s totally normal, for example, to go “drinking“ and just drink oolong tea. At least among my coworkers, they don’t seem to have any difficulty opening up and sharing their feelings without the help of alcohol. (Not to say that none of them get drunk and rowdy - some do!)
Love your nuanced take on Japanese drinking culture, feel like it's so in line with my personal experience in Japan as well. I appreciate these different style videos of how you break down rather complex Japanese Culture in a logical and easy to understand way. It’s my favorite video of yours yet, hope you keep on making more of these :)
In my experience, you don't need to drink alcohol, per se. Any drink works as long as you participate in the afterparty (or nijikai or sanjikai whatever). I remember drinking barley tea and they were completely fine with it, although everyone else did get drunk, and some even getting waaaay too drunk to even stand. What's important is that when someone invites you, accept the invitation even if you don't want to go. You'd be surprised about what you'll learn about the culture and yourself.
飲みニケーション was recommended to me by a host while I was staying in Japan as a great way to meet Japanese people, and the reason why didn't exactly click in my mind until after watching this video. Makes so much sense now though, thanks Dogen!
I lived 2 years in Japan with no drinking. I think it doesn't really matter if you drink or not, what is important is to go to the drinking parties! I went to many nomikais, and even if I had no alcohol it was a real bonding experience with my Japanese mates.
Exactly! I worked in Yokosuka for three years and saw the same thing. If you’re able to loosen up with people at drinking events (as if you were drinking) without drinking then you earn the same social credit because you showed up and were part of the team building/social catharsis.
Great video Dogen. I think this is a great point. I thikk for those who cant drink, ordering a oolong tea us a way to at least join in on the festivities. Of course there is a difference when as you say, "let your guard down" and actually partack.
As a Muslim who had an interest in living in Japan for a period of my life, this is probably one of the biggest concerns we have. I respect the actual value that a nomikai brings between people in Japanese society, and can see how not participating could make it difficult for people around you. Especially the point another commenter said about nomikai's being the place where people can let you know how to be considerate around them, and for you to share how they should be considerate around you. At the same time, I don't see myself being able to be flexible on this matter. Alcohol is religiously prohibited for us, and many of us, myself included, extend that prohibition to being in the presence of alcohol. I can't be comfortable in a nomikai even if I were to just drink tea and others drank alcohol. I consider myself to be equally Muslim and American. I express American culture just as much as I maintain my religious beliefs. It leads to uncomfortable situations at times, but it's not too difficult to have that here. If I were in Japan, I would like to embrace the local culture in the same way and meet them in the middle so to speak. I'm just not sure how I would go about doing that in regards to things like nomikais. One of many reasons that keep me from seriously considering moving to Japan, I suppose.
If you have a religious reason or an alcoholic past (thus not touching anymore alcohol at all) then you can state it and take soft drinks. Sure you will still deviate from japanese norms and older people might find it bad, but for a specific reason and hey you can't control bits of intolerance in Japanese society. You can also take a alcohol free beer, that is mainly the first drink which is standardized to be a beer And for everyone else: you don't have to drink **much**
@watariboshi Excuse the long response. You're welcome to stop before the part after the TLDR, portion, haha. Shorter response to your concern: Your experience with Japanese culture and nomikais with be result of 1) the nature of the company you work for, 2) your willingness to find plenty of other opportunities to meet people in the middle before ever going (or turning down an invitation to) a nomikai, and 3) your faith and prayers that God can soften the hearts of your colleagues and can help you navigate complex social situations. TLDR Portion (my personal experience, don' t have to read) It's great that Dogen mentioned that some "many Japanese people learned English or other languages because they want an out from Japanese culture because they're tired of the ostracism the alienation that comes from going against the grain." I taught at a large eikaiwa company from 2007 to 2009 and not sure if my Japanese students and coworkers fit this description of wanting an out. But I went to several nomikais and was invited by students to places where alcohol was served (if you want good chicken wings, you'll be going to places where alcohol is served). When I explained that I didn't drink for religious and personal reasons, in their sincere, relaxed half-drunkeness, they praised me for not drinking, and were even a little curious about it. I even told them the story about how my dad used to drink before getting religious and how he gave me advice when I was teenager to never touch alcohol and how I followed his advice ever since. Kinda hard for any reasonable Japanese person to tell a grown man not to respect sound advice from his father. Haha. About half of my coworkers and [adult] students didn't drink at the parties. I do believe that the combination of circumstances surround my employment and the fact that I had spent time with students coworkers prior to any drinking parties created an exceptionally rare situation where the pressure to drink and the negative consequences of not drinking were practically non-existent. So I can't guarantee to you or anyone that you'll be as lucky as me. I've been back in Japan now since mid-September of this year and I now work as an English teacher in a public school. This video just reminded me to RSVP to an end of year party for school staff. I'm pretty sure there will be alcohol there. Haha. Anyway, I am hoping that 15 years after attending my last nomikai, I'll still find people who will be both understanding and even a little fascinated by my decision not to drink. If you ever decide to come to Japan, if you keep your faith in God and pray that He'll give you wisdom to navigate social situations so you neither compromise your standards nor offend others (it is possible especially with His help), you'll be fine. We can't (and shouldn't worry) about changing people's minds, but we can always ask God to touch hearts, and living the parts of our religion that makes us warm and attractive people gives us plenty of mileage to work with. Anyway, I'm happy to be back in Japan and hope you have an opportunity to visit find out for yourself if this place is for you :) If you made it this far, thanks for reading. I guess I needed to type this so I'll be prepared for my next nomikai. Cheers mate! (holding up a cold glass of orange juice on the rocks)
Added note: This time around, I think I have the added advantage of living in a town that is heavily reliant on cars, and laws here regarding DUI's are severe. So being the designated driver for myself and maybe others will remove reason for colleagues to pressure me into drinking ;)
I am so glad to hear someone who really understands the culture say this! I have experienced it many times, but I always wondered if I was affecting the group dynamic as a 外人. At the same time, how else does a consensus driven culture come to decisions when you can't disagree with the boss? 飲み会！
I have an American non-drinking friend in Tokyo. He recently even became Japanese citizen. I never had the impression he felt any social stress because of drinking and we always respected his choice. But he rarely joined nomikais and seems like a (boring? no he is a very intersting character) outsider in the company. But I think he couldnt care less 🙂
Great advice, and great video. Just experienced my first nomikai situation 2 weeks ago and had a great time. The way they open up after a few drinks feels oddly rewarding.
This feels like a fair and reasonable cultural assessment and it also feels rather sad. No one should have to drink alcohol in order to be themselves, regardless of societal expectations. How crass would it be to say, "Alcoholism killed two of my uncles so I choose not to drink but I am happy to accompany you,"? I assume it would rub the wrong way, lol. I don't say that upfront here but I have been tempted. When I was in middle school, I realized that every friend at our lunch table (6-8 people) had an alcoholic parent, a few of which were reeeeeally abusive. My best friend had the phone number to the bar her mom frequented and she'd have to call and beg her to come home - she basically parented her younger brother when she was 12. My other best friend has had more than three years of therapy to undo the damage his POS father did to him after the daily handles of vodka. I understand why people drink, I really, really do, but I am *viscerally* repulsed by it. I had my gallbladder removed when I was 16, so when I'm invited out to drink in the US and I don't want to divulge all of the above, I just say it pains my liver. Which it does. Frankly, I'll accept the ostracism and hope to bump into other sober people. I also don't want to get stuck taking care of anyone vomiting, either. It was bad enough that my dad stained the hallway wall with red wine. Ugh.
Gonna drop a 2 beers deep “hontoe knee” or whatever 🤠 but this was probably the most succinct coverage of this topic I’ve watched to date. I’ll probably keep the link to this one on hand for future travel buddies 🍻 ~degozaru
Eloquently put. Your point about "whether or not you're accepted in Japan depending on how many cultural boxes you check" particularly resonated with me. I feel like that same point applies to whatever country one might find themselves living in - albeit with the caveat that some of those boxes might feel a bit more foreign for someone coming to Japan from abroad (I know some of those did for me when I first started living here). My experience drinking in Japan is a bit different since I work doing sales for a sake brewery and drinking with clients is a must. However, when I was teaching English back in the day I made sure to take part in the nomikai whenever possible. Admiteddly I'm not sure to what degree this affected my relationships with my coworkers, but if I were working an office job I feel like it might have made more of a difference. Thanks always for the wonderful videos Dogen.
Really interesting topic and I enjoyed the video very much and share your opinion completely. You mentioned it in your video that it does not so much count for the younger generation and I would probably agree from my personal experience however I am not sure if that is actually true. Getting to know the friends of my wife was completely different from the friends that I made and that is probably just because what you also said, those that speak english are more likely to have a more open mindset and personality.
Okay, as an ex-alcoholic who refuses to drink, I still enjoy GOING to a pub or izakaya, grabbing a soda or a tea/coffee and having a nice conversation with the drinking group. That is how I do things, and I am happy with this lifetyle. Also no more headaces and unnecesary arguments with friends and family :P Its not like you HAVE TO drink with the japanese, you have to ATTEND the nomikai, order your genmaicha and enjoy the idiots getting drunk around you :D Also its way more rewarding to actually remember the event, and next day you can be just as productive as always without any hangover. Drinking just because "they expect you to" is bad because it can really end up being a health concern. Its not like you are asked to eat sushi with them, they ask you to drink POISON on a regular basis. Anyways, I just wanted to get this out of my head, nice video as always.
Went to Japan for 3 weeks. Not a big drinker, but I don't avoid it. Yeah, people seemed happier talking when drunk - and typically irritated with me otherwise lol
12:52 This just feels like a universal statement for any culture. If someone moves to a new culture, buht doesn't really assimilate, yeah the locals of that culture won't see them as apart of their culture. Japan is certainly a special case, through it's isolationism, cultural particulars ahnd ethnic homogeneity, but the principal still holds I believe throughout nearly all cultures at a base level. Really appreciated this video btw, as it helped fill in the blanks for me to the reason for so many mandatory drinking parties I hear about there. Thanks 🤘🤘
My teacher introduced me to your channel back in high school, and while I've since discontinued studying Japanese as a language, I've stuck around with the channel because of your wit and insight. I've really enjoyed watching your videos lately, keep it up!
I absolutely love the center of this video being how you can truly love someone, by joining in on something they do, with your whole heart, looking for connection. Making meaningful relationships is not always comfortable. Thanks for sharing! I feel like this has cleared up a lot of confusion for me on this topic, even though I’ve heard about it a hundred times.
The most well rounded video on Japanese culture I’ve ever seen. Interestingly I work for a global US company in Japan, my Japanese colleagues are “less Japanese” than others, they certainly don’t mince words when they have a problem say with a product manager or otherwise lol. Probably explains why many of them want to stay in the gaishikei realm.
all of your japan commentary has been wonderful to hear! after years of consuming content related to japan on youtube I haven't heard insight as good as yours is in these longer videos (OH MY GOODNESS YOU WERE A NINJA IN UNIVERSITY INCREDIBLE MOVES)
Dogen, outstanding! Really hit the nail on the head in this very insightful message! I lived in Japan only 2 years, some time ago, and I did definitely find drinking was very much a social lubricant and an "inhibition-reduction" ingredient. Most of the time this seemed very positive, to open up honest conversation. However, there were also times, I felt, that Japanese colleagues (could be kohai-sempai) would use alcohol as an excuse to express themselves overly rudely to others, who were obligated to forgive and forget the rudeness, because it was said in a state of intoxication! Personally, I had a bit of trouble with that.
I like that you explained the sponsor why why you put it at the beginning, rather than just tried to sneak it in with some clever joke like most UA-camrs.
An interesting topic, and as someone who enjoys a beer and has no qualms about going to a bar on his own, has made me re-consider some of my drinking experiences in Japan. I’ve ended up having an absolute blast a few times with suddenly uninhibited Japanese people in bars once they realised I had more than the basics in Japanese and would crack on with a few beers. One time being when they discovered I played rugby to a decent level in England, at which point I was informed they were watching the game that was coming up on the TV with me 😂. Several hours of Karaage, beers and drunken selfies followed.
I have never heard a more concise and well explained reason for the honne and tatemae before, as well as for the drinking parties. You have completely shifted my perspectives for the better Dogen. Thank you greatly.
Beautifully articulated, my same feeling here. As a fully foreign family living for some years here, they want to include you, provided you do/act as much as possible the "japanese way". The tricky part is understanding what the "Japanese way" is without anybody advicing on it, and then when you know, not loosing your identity or overextending yourself. Not easy, but rewarding ❤
Major major point: Turning down offers of going drinking WILL negatively affect you. It doesn't matter if you drink or not. It's being part of the group in that situation that is important. Eventually you will just not be asked and never accepted into the group.
Yeah, my experience has been that people who go drinking and drink oolong cha are still seen as group participants. Though that might not be a ton of fun to be sober while your bosses get wasted and talk shit. 😂
I'm at an international dorm right now. And i had a reunion once i moved in. They explicity told us ( and couldn't stress that more than enough) that forcing someone to drink was a BIG no no and that no one should be excluded because his refusal to drink. Considering the culture behind 飲み会 and my opinion on alcohol ( it's basically poison for the brain, it sucks that it is well percieved in almost every culture of the world...) I was gladly suprised.
Thank you❤ I love this type of videos❤ I'm really happy I'm able to lear about Japanese life style, culture and other when I can't go there, but it's possible thanks to you 😊
This was a really good video dogen, thanks. Helps reaffirm my plans of spending a lot of time at small bars to improve my japanese and hopefully make friends there
Really appreciate others talking about this and making videos about it; this subject used to get brought up in conversations back in the day as well but now with a more organized youtube and more people watching these videos, hopefully this can be used as a "beginner's course" of sorts on the kind of culture and ideas behind the japanese way of life and their parties / online presence.
As always, great video. I’m always happy when I see a notification about a new video from Dogen. For those who don’t usually drink, but can do it safely, Dogen is spot on. Having a drink with coworkers or clients helps things move forward. As a person who can’t drink, I probably pay the price for turning down alcohol. However, I did close a $1Mil software deal without consuming a drop of alcohol.
This is how I introduced your video in my International cafe on Line and in Facebook: I don't drink alcohol--much; occasionally a glass or a few cups of sake. The new evidence sweeping the health and medical communities is conclusive--it poisons you, if you drink on a regular basis, ruining your dopamine levels, increasing your chances of cancer and heart disease and shrinking your brain--and this is not alcohol use disorder sufferers, it is everyone who drinks regularly--no matter how little. But this is a fascinating video. And, the author is like me; he only drinks several times a year. Dogen, when I return to Japan, in a few weeks, can I go out with coworkers and not drink?
A very insightful view on drinking culture. I like you tackling these serious issues. Very sound judgement and articulation in expressing our western drinking cultural differences. Great video!
Interesting. Makes me think of drinking culture in Eastern European countries where we also bond over drinking. Probably has roots in constant historical strife, too - just of a different nature.
I have gout and I'm also really allergic to the most common treatment, but I learned the word for gout in japanese and when I went to a nomikai my co-workers were very understanding and after some beers they did not pressure me to continue drinking or anything. We had a blast and I cannot wait to go with them again (we work in different countries 😅)
I found this video really insightful, and it was interesting to consider my own experience in Japan in this narrative. Ultimately after years of living there I felt like “I will never be fully accepted here, I’ll always be an outsider to them.” But your point about “how many boxes you check” makes me realize there may have been inflexibilities in my own word view that prevented me from checking all the boxes. Maybe I wasn’t fully accepted because I didn’t really fully conform. I often checked the boxes that were convenient or interesting for me, but not things like long meetings, working late, volunteering on my day off, etc.
gotta leave my big comment 😅 btw I feel like Dogen becomes a so confident and strong minded person when he starts speaking English! i would like even to hear more English / american speaking videos besides Japanese! i just reminded how beautiful English actually is! - the sad thing about alcoholism in Japan is that its an alcoholism - as a female i can just adding that japanese mens using alcohol as an way to " make it out with a girl " approach a girl - a date starts mainly 98 % in drinking enviroments. even i would say 99% they use alcohol to asking approaching - if she wants to date them - they use alcohol to be able to even have a conversation with a woman - or in bars and hostessclubs - they use alcohol or sometimes pretend as if they where drunk as an excuse to get closer to the lady's seat or acting as if they would accidentially not been in controll over emotions due to the alc. them pretending to not remember what they did? and the excuse to hear oh?! i did that? oh i dont remember sorry i have a wife actually - i was just drunk..... thats what i seen from many customers saying in hostessclubs to their clients. alcohol is used as a excuse to cross boundarys and whenever something goes wrong in terms of ( cheating ) or relationships boundarys are crossed the term " oh sorry i was just drunk " is widely acceptable and the norm... that makes it really sad society - thats why there exist all these hostessclubs - mens believe aslong they drunk all is allowed and excuse to get closer to other females while beeing engaged or married - by saying i dont remember sorry - i was drunk i was another person that " nightout " ( i guess for ladys that goes too as well) - japanese have issues to set boundarys in general - and same that goes for the alcohol. ( i worked as hostess in Japan and i have seen all these married mens with kids and wallpapers of kids on their phones, cheating on their wifes in girls bars & Hostessclubs ) - btw. the most unattractive thing about a guy is if he cant be men enouth to say " no " against the norm - thats probably why, i might never be ever attracted to japanese guys as a foreigner female.
I moved to Japan at the beginning of the year and am out here in a rural part of Kitakyushu since May. I never went out to drink back in America, but have drank more in the past few months of being here than I probably have in my entire life before coming to Japan. I think, for me at least, a lot of it comes from not needing to worry about driving, and people in general just being way more chill here. I know that there's always some exception, but not having someone randomly try to start a fight with me for no reason or worry about getting shot out in the French Quarter in New Orleans makes being able to relax and have a few drinks much much easier.
Your last sentence was the most important one: Provided the foreigners trying their best to act Japanese. It packs so much to explain about the Japanese society.
So the Japanese and the Irish have a lot in common in this respect. More difficult to get to know them if you don’t drink with them. Not impossible but a lot more difficult. Thanks for your insights Mr O Donnell!
Yes, if you do not drink, some Japanese people will not see you as a friend. Yes, if you dont drink, you may never see your Japanese colleagues 本音 The real question is, are you willing to compromise your personal beliefs for others approval? You could compare it to high school. Are you going to take a hit of that joint just to be apart of the cool kids? Are you going to drink just so you could be accepted by your Japanese community? Me personally, if someone is willing to exclude you cause of your hestinacy to take drugs (yes, alcohol is a drug), then that is a reflection on their character. I lived in Japan for 3 years and spoke Japanese at a conversational level (n4). I made tons of Japanese friends. Admittingly, most of my Japanese friends were rebels in Japanese society, and western minded in a sense. But I liked them. Whether I met them in Japan, or the west, I wouldve been friends with them regardless. Cause we enjoyed each others company. Not being friends with Yamamoto-san cause I didnt show up to the 飲み会, i wasnt losing any sleep over that
@@TragicGFuel I was able to hold fun conversations when I barely had N5. The JLPT may be terrible to rank your language skills, but if you know half the N4 words and grammar you can communicate somewhat. Your speaking ability develops from listening and speaking, so practice is all it takes. I do know a ton of foreigners who can barely pass N3 but have way better communication skills than someone with N1. For example, most workers who came under the ssw visa have just n4, but they work alongside the Japanese without problems.
Excellent! I stayed with a Japanese family for a month while I studied Japanese. And even in their home we rarely got into topics of their inner thoughts. Thank you for explaining those two different parts, the inner for outer thought process!
Good topic, and well informed take. Two BIG comments on this.
1) The assumption that what you say at nomikai stays there and it is the only place people can be open and honest is true for middle managers up, but not for subordinates. Kohais are expected to still use keigo, make sure superiors drinks are full, arrange stuff with staff, and take the shit of the bosses, and yeah, for work drinks in my early years here, I found that alcohol just added to the stress of an already stressful experience. I learned a few months in that people who didn't like to drink, or attend altogether would say "I REALLY want to drink but I'm taking cold medicine" to get out of it and so I perpetually used it, eventually accepting the "social tax" that comes with that. However that then comes to point two:
2) In my 25 years, there has been a MAJOR shift in drinking culture in Japan. In the early 2000s it was mandatory, enforced, and even poor Japanese folks without the enzyme to process alcohol would go and people regularly got sick. Then in the late 2000s with what seemed to my view to coincide with govt campaigns around power harassment, suddenly mandatory karaoke and stuff disappeared, and drinking parties suddenly had pitchers of tea in equal number to beer, and half my colleagues would join but choose not to have alcohol. This is what I saw in Tokyo. And it corresponded with seeing far less "Shibuya Meltdown" scenes in public. And then in the 2010s it went a step further, with new hires not only not drinking, but not even showing up! And as you alluded to, by around 2020, the government was seemingly starting to worry that youth non-drinking was going to put Japan's beer megacorporations out of business and was talking about how to encourage young people to drink.
Nomikais now are generally more privately arranged, and I only attend full work functions a couple of times per year. And at those, a significant proportion of people, including older people, stick to tea. I think it is a dramatic and positive cultural change in Japan, although I think it also means people are also less connected. That said, I'm aware you're in Kagoshima which probably has a more robust drinking culture surviving than Tokyo does. But I'm glad the old style pressure to drink has nearly gone.
Love your videos always sir!
Very interesting comment for someone who just moved to Japan, thank you!
You said, the rule "what happens at a nomikai stays at a nomikai" isn't really true. Could you expand on that from your personal experience?
I don't work in a Japanese company (yet, thank god), but I enjoy getting to chat with people in Japanese I meet at bars. And they are definitely a lot more open after drinking alcohol.
Although, in my personal experience, Taxi drivers have been a good ressource as well. They seem to have a lot less of a filter then other people and will just tell you anything from the heart, once you start talking to them a little.
@@seregruin The rest of point 1 past the 1st half of the 1st sentence expands on that from their personal experience. They don't say "isn't really true", you need to re-read it.
~"is true for middle managers up, but not for subordinates. "
> That said, I'm aware you're in Kagoshima
I was under the impression that Dogen lives in the outskirts of Beppu, and he spent many years at Ritsumeikan APU, also in Beppu
@@illiiilli24601 actually I noticed that after the comment - no idea why I thought all this time he was in Kagoshima!
@@illiiilli24601I think Beppu too
I really appreciate these more serious videos more than the comedy skits as fun as they are haha.
Both are great!
Agreed love both. But I got a little tired of the skits and this is a very interesting watch.
@@unixtreme I think the comedy skits ahnd their dry humor on different aspects of Japanese culture greatly compliment more serious and nuanced videos lyke this'n. Knowing someone has a propensity towards goofy humor, but can reign that in to be straightforward ahnd to the point once in a while is an enticing dynamic 🤙
I bet it would be easily possible to make a comedy skit out of responding to an invitation to nomikai with a rant about honne, insinuation about ulterior motives, etc. (itself demonstrating the ranter's honne in a socially unexpected situation!)
I came to realize that this is part of the reason why many anime are so over the top. They are loud, bombastic, they roll their tongue aggressively in their speech, they do all these things because this is what many Japanese people themselves want to do. It’s a form of escapism from their own societal woes.
Seeing that helped me understand why we in America don’t have that kind of escapism in media as much. We have different societal issues, and our own media addresses those instead.
日本人の深層心理とその解釈は違っています。そもそも 私たち日本人は、皆さんが考えるような抑圧された日々を送ってはいません。大きな災害が度々襲ってくるが故に鈍感力が高まってしまい、日々かなりお花畑に過ごしています。アニメの表現が過剰なのは、ただ凝り性な人間が多く手を抜くことが出来ないだけです。
Yeah I've had the impression for a long time that Japanese entertainment can get so weird and wacky because it was an outlet for the people living in a very socially conservative society to vicariously have weird and wacky adventures.
But it kind of gets a little sad when you see so many modern Japanese romances and romcoms are just about simple relationships. Like it appeals to Japanese people who are so lonely that they dream about just having simple and basic relationships.
I think it speaks volumes that "isekai" is a Japanese invention.
@@DavidCruickshank to be fair, that genre was around long before it became a manga/anime fad. A Connecticut Yakee in King Arthur's Court is over 100 years old. The John Carter of Mars books and copycats were very popular in the pulp era
@@fattiger6957 Don't be so sure. This is exactly why many Japanese are fed up with a foreigner
"We accept foreigners, provided the foreigner is doing their best to act like us." Such an important, core concept of assimilation that bears repeating. Whether you're a tourist or want to consider this place your home - either is ok, but a home needs to be loved and respected all the time. This requires devotion and can be difficult! Both ways require honesty. Good video.
When in Rome do as the Romans do.
I came in here thinking i'd hear a joke with a punchline at the end. I left learning about cultural differences between Japan and the US. Great video Dogen-sama!
Cheers!
Yes!! But then I also appreciated his self-deprecating joke about "people who wear the same clothes every day". 😂
@@Dogen A lot of people seem to be asking the same question: Is it acceptable to just get a non-alcoholic drink (especially if I have medical issues)? How about doing another video that addresses that question, if not just for more of that sweet ad and sponsorship revenue? Haha. "For you non-drinkers, Tippsy's snack set especially tastes great with メロン soda!" I'm under the impression that some commenters feel that Japan is this unreasonable rigid monolith of conformity that would rather have foreigners go to the hospital or get arrested for DUI before accepting a refusal to order alcohol at a nomikai. Lol. Btw, moved back to Japan in September and your video on earthquakes has helped me to start my emergency preparations!
@@yuuu2ooob891 Will try to do this!
I think there's actually more to it than just "blowing off steam" or "being part of the group" (though those are definitely factors). You hinted at it a few times but didn't seem to actually explicitly make the connection: Situations like these where people can actually speak honestly with each other are also *required for 建前 to actually work properly,* too.
They are opportunities for Japanese people to _learn_ about their friends and coworkers _so that they can properly consider their needs and feelings_ the rest of the time. If my coworker is bothered by cigarette smoke, how do I know to avoid smoking around her, if she doesn't tell me? But she'll never tell me normally, so I'll never know that that's something I should be considering. If my other colleague is going through a messy breakup, that's something he's not going to be broadcasting to the whole office. Arguably, it's none of my business and I shouldn't even ask, even if I suspect something. But then how can I be considerate of him and try to support him, if I don't even know what's going on in his life?
That's what these parties are really for. They allow the people involved to actually _understand_ each other _so that they can be properly considerate of each other's needs_ in the outside, everyday world, even though they're not allowed to tell people what their needs are there. There is an unspoken agreement that "what happens here stays here", but everyone also knows that's not actually true. They will never actually say it, but they do still (usually) remember, and that's actually important and necessary too. This is the mechanism that _allows people to be kind to each other._
(And this is why if you don't participate, it's not just antisocial, but it actually _makes life harder_ for the people around you, because you are taking away from them one of the only tools they know how to use to know that they are being properly considerate and polite towards you the rest of the time, which is such an important thing to them, and it can just make them feel like they are walking through a minefield, or even like they are a social failure every time they try to interact with you.)
it kind of blows that they have to structure this gathering of vital information around doing an activity that makes some people physically ill though
Im already a social minefield, so really this is no different from my normal life.
Damn, Japan is just Nightmare Mode for introverts or misanthropes, huh?
o.o
@@LemonRush7777 tatemae is definitely one of the reasons people become hikikomori
Never understood this concept until I left Japan, love the video and I get your decision for placing ad at the start
お酒一切飲まない日本人です。
飲み会文化はまだまだ残ってるとは思いますが、昔と比べれば自分みたいな人でもかなり生きやすくなったと思います。
そんな私でも、お酒は飲みませんが飲み会には積極的に参加します。お酒飲まないと本音喋らない日本人が多いのは本当にその通りで、お酒飲まない席で日本人に本音を喋らせたり一緒に深い話をするのにはちょっとした技術が要りますし、時間も結構かかります。
男性同士である場合はそうなのかもしれませんが、女性の場合はハードルはそんなに高くないと思いますよ。女性の方が社交的ですし、お酒の席ではなく普段の会話から距離を縮めますので。
@t.k.8892 Nice profile picture. It's a good record, and alcohol even pairs nicely with it
As a Japanese, I can say one thing. I do not drink alcohol and I do in fact deviate from groups from time to time. There’s a lot of judgement going on around you and some of them would literally just talk behind your back near you on purpose just to bash you a little bit.
However, as a science student I don’t feel angry or feel the need to get revenge or anything. Since the group wants to push my social standing to low and they can’t, that’s what I call “the way of the weak”. Whether I’m weak or strong doesn’t matter as I only need to participate in emergencies. Whatever they say is just a small chemical reaction for them to release themselves from stress. Yes, earthquake is scary. Yes tsunami is scary and yes, volcano eruptions are scary. If they want to complain and use me to release their stresses through words, they can freely do so and I do welcome that. However if they get physically violent, I would not hesitate to disable them immediately.
Once you live in Japan for a long time, you’ll keep hearing “空気を読めよ”. But trust me on this one, if you something is going to go wrong when you do what they do, don’t hesitate to ask them specifically what they want to do and for what purpose. It’s a small courtesy and if you don’t want to do it. Don’t hesitate to say no. Does that mean you’ll have less friends later?
Absolutely.
However you should also know how to not let all your emotions out just because I said that you don’t have to say yes to certain situation. What you need is not a fool proof method to stop you from getting forced to do something and let you let your emotions out. What you need is knowledge. The more you show yourself, the more they judge you. It’s human nature to judge something different. Whether it’s for the good or for the bad. But please remember if you’re a foreigner, even if you’re from a different culture; everyone here are a living organism with a brain that works just like everyone. Rejecting such culture to just say “Oh that’s Japanese” is the same as saying “Oh that’s how a cow does it, we’re better. We’re humans. We’re more alive”. It may not be your intentions but that’s what saying that carries. I also know that currently, people have short attention span so they like to simplify everything. But please I beg you with my knees and forehead on the ground. Please try to learn and think.
This problem is not just with foreigners but Japanese people as well. I cannot count as to how many times I see someone end up with depression due to oversimplification in social settings. Some of them know this fact and used it to rise in social settings by getting rid of those with abilities while they themselves do not have such abilities. Ruining not just the place itself but the people working there. All for 1 month of feeling good and high.
see that's the odd thing...
those habits you say? they're definitely present in itlaian culture as well.
wanting to fit in is even strogner than in american culture and here it happens in all ranges of age, but not as much as japanese..
because despite the expectations being something present on a group-level (i.e. the southern italian mindset of "live and let live" which can bring rise to lots of illegal stuff just getting the pass "because it's not that bad at the end of the day, just live and let live") on a wider cultural and accademical level everyone knows that it's not a nice thing, that ostracism like that isn't the fault of the individual wo goes against the group's accepted norm, but an issue with society, so if you end up having that issue, as long as it's possible to do something about it, you won't be ignored for it, you will be addressed and, hopefully, gain the demanded respect.
if you don't? well...
i'm an autistic person, although i only got diagnosed at 17 years old my mother knew i had issues, but we just couldn't figure out what for the longest time.
when i was a kid, apparently my mother would get oftne called from the principal due to not so much mmy misbehaviour, but rather due to a attitude that they perceived as isolationism(although i did do that when ii felt bullied, most of the time i just didn't want to or know how to interact with other kids.
but that's the thing, the principal DID call, and wanted to hlep, even if they didn't really manage to do much if anything at all.
later, i would one time have a stomach ache and call my mother to go back home, the language and math teacher present scolded and humiliated me in front of the class.
legally speaking i could have very well sued her even though sueing is much harder in italy than i.e. usa, and i would have been in the right both legally and morally.
in yet another school in middle school, as due to my habits in past schools at this point i just didn't care anymore, i both wasnt' doing physical activity nor cared much anymore about trying to do well at school academically, while it was a rather shoddy attempt, no classmate ever bothered me for that and the teachers sometimes did try to figure out what was my issue and help me in some very small and unforunately inconsequential ways. (admittedly, in middle school it's the teachers that get harrassed by kids rather than kids harrassing other kids...)
in high school? while i only did 3 months of it, it started off with me being generally bullied by a small group of kids, i don't recall the specifics but i was often compared to a special needs dude in my class due to my (obviously, given i was often sleeping in class at that point) scores and behaviour.
between one day where me and that guy had a fight and i admitted to my only friends there that i held back from actually hurting the guy by purposefully fighting inefficiently and most importantly(this i heard well long after i quit school) as apparently the kids there started thinking i was poor and generally an insufficient lifestyle at home, they started being far more friendly.
maybe it was fear(although i was the one that "lost" in that latercation) but most likely? i think they just realized i had good reasons, my own reasons to go against the grain and not allow others to disrespect me, and that was enough to have people change their attitude.
from what i'm hearing about japan though... a selective change in aptitude is not something you can expect from japanese people, EVEN if they end up understanding you and your needs or wants, even if them being polite is actually achieving the opposite result they intend to aim for with you/for the situation.
i just can't like that and in some cases, find it hard to apoogize such behaviour, if these people(and i'm not saying just japanese people, but any person which doesn't match what i'm going to say next) are owners of a brain good enough that can analyze situations and act accordingly, form relationships and understand how different individual beings can be, ranging from personality to cultural background, from medical needs to life background, then what stops them from adjusting their habits and social expectations accordingly?
respect is a mutual benefit "you get as much respect as you give, you give as much respect as you get"; if another person wants me to respect their culture, personality and behaviour, i expect them to do the same for my own, but i find that latter part is almost never done.
@スイミル Thank you so much for sharing your experiences on this topic
USA: I wanna drink with you because I like you.
Japan: You have to drink with me so that you will like me.
* drinks internally *
True honest japanese opinion incoming: i hate you, gaijin-kun!
You: F@ck.
Interesting take. My take would be
USA: You need to drink with me because drinking makes you cool (even though it doesn't)
Japan: Drink with me so we can get to know each other.
@gmanjapan alcohol has always been known and kept being imbibed due to its socially lubricant quality
I'd agree with point one (disclaimer: I don't drink, but people still invite me and it's not like anyone in America actually thinks drinking is the point)
But for point two I do think it's really interesting to think about, at least from my experience with my Japanese friends, that they do have some paranoia about not knowing the real thoughts of their friends or colleagues if they can't drink with them. Like one of them once legitimately asked me about how we don't have the same drinking culture in America, and if not, how do you know what you're friends are thinking.
I was pretty shocked by that, but it clicked. Our cultures are different in so many ways, it's so interesting.
Wow, there is so much excellent cultural information packed into this one! Just one point about recent changes in drinking culture here. Compared with 20 years ago when I first got here, there is considerably less pressure to consume alcohol now. It’s totally normal, for example, to go “drinking“ and just drink oolong tea. At least among my coworkers, they don’t seem to have any difficulty opening up and sharing their feelings without the help of alcohol. (Not to say that none of them get drunk and rowdy - some do!)
Haha, expected to find you here. Definitely your type of video. Actually… haven’t you made something like this before?
@@DoctorEbot I think you have me confused with another Japan-based foreign UA-camr. 😂
It is the kind of thing I would make though. 🍻
Love your nuanced take on Japanese drinking culture, feel like it's so in line with my personal experience in Japan as well. I appreciate these different style videos of how you break down rather complex Japanese Culture in a logical and easy to understand way. It’s my favorite video of yours yet, hope you keep on making more of these :)
In my experience, you don't need to drink alcohol, per se. Any drink works as long as you participate in the afterparty (or nijikai or sanjikai whatever). I remember drinking barley tea and they were completely fine with it, although everyone else did get drunk, and some even getting waaaay too drunk to even stand.
What's important is that when someone invites you, accept the invitation even if you don't want to go. You'd be surprised about what you'll learn about the culture and yourself.
飲みニケーション was recommended to me by a host while I was staying in Japan as a great way to meet Japanese people, and the reason why didn't exactly click in my mind until after watching this video. Makes so much sense now though, thanks Dogen!
Is 飲みニケーション an actual fun term for drinking together and talking used in Japan or are you joking? Serious question.
@@froodmood would love to know this too @andythedandy
@@froodmood it's a real term. at least it was when i was there over 10 years ago
@@leoryzap It is very much a real term that is used there!
I lived 2 years in Japan with no drinking. I think it doesn't really matter if you drink or not, what is important is to go to the drinking parties! I went to many nomikais, and even if I had no alcohol it was a real bonding experience with my Japanese mates.
Exactly! I worked in Yokosuka for three years and saw the same thing. If you’re able to loosen up with people at drinking events (as if you were drinking) without drinking then you earn the same social credit because you showed up and were part of the team building/social catharsis.
上下関係のある人たちとの飲み会だとだいたい座る位置が決まってるし、村の祭りだと年長の老人たちが弁当の蓋を開けるまで他の人たちは開けてはいけなかったりするし、世話役がいない時は一番下の人がみんなのお酒や食事の減り具合を見て、追加のお酒や食事が必要かどうかを聞いたりしなきゃいけなくて、大変なんよなぁ
Great video, makes total sense. Didn't know my man was a tricker! 🤜
Once a tricker always a tricker!
I had this on in the background and the mention of tricking made me perk up. Haven't heard a reference to tricking in ages.
Great video Dogen. I think this is a great point. I thikk for those who cant drink, ordering a oolong tea us a way to at least join in on the festivities. Of course there is a difference when as you say, "let your guard down" and actually partack.
As a Muslim who had an interest in living in Japan for a period of my life, this is probably one of the biggest concerns we have.
I respect the actual value that a nomikai brings between people in Japanese society, and can see how not participating could make it difficult for people around you. Especially the point another commenter said about nomikai's being the place where people can let you know how to be considerate around them, and for you to share how they should be considerate around you.
At the same time, I don't see myself being able to be flexible on this matter. Alcohol is religiously prohibited for us, and many of us, myself included, extend that prohibition to being in the presence of alcohol. I can't be comfortable in a nomikai even if I were to just drink tea and others drank alcohol.
I consider myself to be equally Muslim and American. I express American culture just as much as I maintain my religious beliefs. It leads to uncomfortable situations at times, but it's not too difficult to have that here.
If I were in Japan, I would like to embrace the local culture in the same way and meet them in the middle so to speak. I'm just not sure how I would go about doing that in regards to things like nomikais.
One of many reasons that keep me from seriously considering moving to Japan, I suppose.
If you have a religious reason or an alcoholic past (thus not touching anymore alcohol at all) then you can state it and take soft drinks. Sure you will still deviate from japanese norms and older people might find it bad, but for a specific reason and hey you can't control bits of intolerance in Japanese society.
You can also take a alcohol free beer, that is mainly the first drink which is standardized to be a beer
And for everyone else: you don't have to drink **much**
Your loss.
@watariboshi
Excuse the long response. You're welcome to stop before the part after the TLDR, portion, haha.
Shorter response to your concern: Your experience with Japanese culture and nomikais with be result of 1) the nature of the company you work for, 2) your willingness to find plenty of other opportunities to meet people in the middle before ever going (or turning down an invitation to) a nomikai, and 3) your faith and prayers that God can soften the hearts of your colleagues and can help you navigate complex social situations.
TLDR Portion (my personal experience, don' t have to read)
It's great that Dogen mentioned that some "many Japanese people learned English or other languages because they want an out from Japanese culture because they're tired of the ostracism the alienation that comes from going against the grain." I taught at a large eikaiwa company from 2007 to 2009 and not sure if my Japanese students and coworkers fit this description of wanting an out. But I went to several nomikais and was invited by students to places where alcohol was served (if you want good chicken wings, you'll be going to places where alcohol is served). When I explained that I didn't drink for religious and personal reasons, in their sincere, relaxed half-drunkeness, they praised me for not drinking, and were even a little curious about it. I even told them the story about how my dad used to drink before getting religious and how he gave me advice when I was teenager to never touch alcohol and how I followed his advice ever since. Kinda hard for any reasonable Japanese person to tell a grown man not to respect sound advice from his father. Haha. About half of my coworkers and [adult] students didn't drink at the parties.
I do believe that the combination of circumstances surround my employment and the fact that I had spent time with students coworkers prior to any drinking parties created an exceptionally rare situation where the pressure to drink and the negative consequences of not drinking were practically non-existent. So I can't guarantee to you or anyone that you'll be as lucky as me.
I've been back in Japan now since mid-September of this year and I now work as an English teacher in a public school. This video just reminded me to RSVP to an end of year party for school staff. I'm pretty sure there will be alcohol there. Haha. Anyway, I am hoping that 15 years after attending my last nomikai, I'll still find people who will be both understanding and even a little fascinated by my decision not to drink.
If you ever decide to come to Japan, if you keep your faith in God and pray that He'll give you wisdom to navigate social situations so you neither compromise your standards nor offend others (it is possible especially with His help), you'll be fine. We can't (and shouldn't worry) about changing people's minds, but we can always ask God to touch hearts, and living the parts of our religion that makes us warm and attractive people gives us plenty of mileage to work with.
Anyway, I'm happy to be back in Japan and hope you have an opportunity to visit find out for yourself if this place is for you :)
If you made it this far, thanks for reading. I guess I needed to type this so I'll be prepared for my next nomikai. Cheers mate! (holding up a cold glass of orange juice on the rocks)
Added note: This time around, I think I have the added advantage of living in a town that is heavily reliant on cars, and laws here regarding DUI's are severe. So being the designated driver for myself and maybe others will remove reason for colleagues to pressure me into drinking ;)
ikinari "Mikan tabemasu? (do you like oranges?)" out of nowhere. Love it.
I am so glad to hear someone who really understands the culture say this!
I have experienced it many times, but I always wondered if I was affecting the group dynamic as a 外人.
At the same time, how else does a consensus driven culture come to decisions when you can't disagree with the boss?
飲み会！
Actually a lot of people raise disagreements with boss at 飲み会！
@@Dogen Yeah, I was just amazed that it was literally glass touches lips before the truth started flowing.
That was another really well done video.
I have an American non-drinking friend in Tokyo. He recently even became Japanese citizen. I never had the impression he felt any social stress because of drinking and we always respected his choice. But he rarely joined nomikais and seems like a (boring? no he is a very intersting character) outsider in the company. But I think he couldnt care less 🙂
Great advice, and great video.
Just experienced my first nomikai situation 2 weeks ago and had a great time. The way they open up after a few drinks feels oddly rewarding.
This feels like a fair and reasonable cultural assessment and it also feels rather sad. No one should have to drink alcohol in order to be themselves, regardless of societal expectations.
How crass would it be to say, "Alcoholism killed two of my uncles so I choose not to drink but I am happy to accompany you,"? I assume it would rub the wrong way, lol. I don't say that upfront here but I have been tempted.
When I was in middle school, I realized that every friend at our lunch table (6-8 people) had an alcoholic parent, a few of which were reeeeeally abusive. My best friend had the phone number to the bar her mom frequented and she'd have to call and beg her to come home - she basically parented her younger brother when she was 12. My other best friend has had more than three years of therapy to undo the damage his POS father did to him after the daily handles of vodka.
I understand why people drink, I really, really do, but I am *viscerally* repulsed by it.
I had my gallbladder removed when I was 16, so when I'm invited out to drink in the US and I don't want to divulge all of the above, I just say it pains my liver. Which it does. Frankly, I'll accept the ostracism and hope to bump into other sober people. I also don't want to get stuck taking care of anyone vomiting, either. It was bad enough that my dad stained the hallway wall with red wine. Ugh.
Perhaps you could just say that you don't (or can't, only a small lie) drink when invited, and give the explanation if/when it comes up at the event?
Some other commenters have said they attend the meetups and just drink tea.
Gonna drop a 2 beers deep “hontoe knee” or whatever 🤠 but this was probably the most succinct coverage of this topic I’ve watched to date. I’ll probably keep the link to this one on hand for future travel buddies 🍻
~degozaru
Eloquently put. Your point about "whether or not you're accepted in Japan depending on how many cultural boxes you check" particularly resonated with me. I feel like that same point applies to whatever country one might find themselves living in - albeit with the caveat that some of those boxes might feel a bit more foreign for someone coming to Japan from abroad (I know some of those did for me when I first started living here).
My experience drinking in Japan is a bit different since I work doing sales for a sake brewery and drinking with clients is a must. However, when I was teaching English back in the day I made sure to take part in the nomikai whenever possible. Admiteddly I'm not sure to what degree this affected my relationships with my coworkers, but if I were working an office job I feel like it might have made more of a difference.
Thanks always for the wonderful videos Dogen.
Another outstanding video. Really enjoying the longer content. Keep it up!!
Really interesting topic and I enjoyed the video very much and share your opinion completely. You mentioned it in your video that it does not so much count for the younger generation and I would probably agree from my personal experience however I am not sure if that is actually true. Getting to know the friends of my wife was completely different from the friends that I made and that is probably just because what you also said, those that speak english are more likely to have a more open mindset and personality.
Okay, as an ex-alcoholic who refuses to drink, I still enjoy GOING to a pub or izakaya, grabbing a soda or a tea/coffee and having a nice conversation with the drinking group. That is how I do things, and I am happy with this lifetyle. Also no more headaces and unnecesary arguments with friends and family :P
Its not like you HAVE TO drink with the japanese, you have to ATTEND the nomikai, order your genmaicha and enjoy the idiots getting drunk around you :D Also its way more rewarding to actually remember the event, and next day you can be just as productive as always without any hangover.
Drinking just because "they expect you to" is bad because it can really end up being a health concern. Its not like you are asked to eat sushi with them, they ask you to drink POISON on a regular basis.
Anyways, I just wanted to get this out of my head, nice video as always.
always think its cool to see the tricking clips spliced into the videos every now and then Dogen-san!!
Went to Japan for 3 weeks. Not a big drinker, but I don't avoid it. Yeah, people seemed happier talking when drunk - and typically irritated with me otherwise lol
12:52 This just feels like a universal statement for any culture. If someone moves to a new culture, buht doesn't really assimilate, yeah the locals of that culture won't see them as apart of their culture.
Japan is certainly a special case, through it's isolationism, cultural particulars ahnd ethnic homogeneity, but the principal still holds I believe throughout nearly all cultures at a base level.
Really appreciated this video btw, as it helped fill in the blanks for me to the reason for so many mandatory drinking parties I hear about there. Thanks 🤘🤘
Top notch commentary! I love your cultural analyses and stories
Appreciate it James.
My teacher introduced me to your channel back in high school, and while I've since discontinued studying Japanese as a language, I've stuck around with the channel because of your wit and insight. I've really enjoyed watching your videos lately, keep it up!
I absolutely love the center of this video being how you can truly love someone, by joining in on something they do, with your whole heart, looking for connection. Making meaningful relationships is not always comfortable. Thanks for sharing! I feel like this has cleared up a lot of confusion for me on this topic, even though I’ve heard about it a hundred times.
The most well rounded video on Japanese culture I’ve ever seen.
Interestingly I work for a global US company in Japan, my Japanese colleagues are “less Japanese” than others, they certainly don’t mince words when they have a problem say with a product manager or otherwise lol. Probably explains why many of them want to stay in the gaishikei realm.
all of your japan commentary has been wonderful to hear! after years of consuming content related to japan on youtube I haven't heard insight as good as yours is in these longer videos
(OH MY GOODNESS YOU WERE A NINJA IN UNIVERSITY INCREDIBLE MOVES)
Dogen, outstanding! Really hit the nail on the head in this very insightful message! I lived in Japan only 2 years, some time ago, and I did definitely find drinking was very much a social lubricant and an "inhibition-reduction" ingredient. Most of the time this seemed very positive, to open up honest conversation. However, there were also times, I felt, that Japanese colleagues (could be kohai-sempai) would use alcohol as an excuse to express themselves overly rudely to others, who were obligated to forgive and forget the rudeness, because it was said in a state of intoxication! Personally, I had a bit of trouble with that.
I'm still ordering apple juice, Dogen!
I like that you explained the sponsor why why you put it at the beginning, rather than just tried to sneak it in with some clever joke like most UA-camrs.
An interesting topic, and as someone who enjoys a beer and has no qualms about going to a bar on his own, has made me re-consider some of my drinking experiences in Japan.
I’ve ended up having an absolute blast a few times with suddenly uninhibited Japanese people in bars once they realised I had more than the basics in Japanese and would crack on with a few beers.
One time being when they discovered I played rugby to a decent level in England, at which point I was informed they were watching the game that was coming up on the TV with me 😂. Several hours of Karaage, beers and drunken selfies followed.
Love the content here. Thanks for doing something like this that gives insights to Japanese culture
9:18 It seems to me that European society used to be more like this, and that this is how the concept of the "court jester" emerged.
I have never heard a more concise and well explained reason for the honne and tatemae before, as well as for the drinking parties. You have completely shifted my perspectives for the better Dogen. Thank you greatly.
One of the most reasonable and level-headed videos that I seriously appreciate. Thank you
5:17 you meant averse Dōgen Sensei, but thats okay; 英語上手ですね！
Beautifully articulated, my same feeling here. As a fully foreign family living for some years here, they want to include you, provided you do/act as much as possible the "japanese way". The tricky part is understanding what the "Japanese way" is without anybody advicing on it, and then when you know, not loosing your identity or overextending yourself. Not easy, but rewarding ❤
Wow! This was really thoughtful and well-put. It really helped having you compare American and Japanese culture to explain things.
This is likely one of the best videos you have made. Very insightful and honest.
4k video that's crazy
cheers haha
Thats more than 20 pixels!
loved this video, as an american with a couple japanese online friends this is very informative!
What a presentation. I am astonished how you articulated the cultural difference 本質的に。 Best video ever, thanks!
Major major point: Turning down offers of going drinking WILL negatively affect you. It doesn't matter if you drink or not. It's being part of the group in that situation that is important. Eventually you will just not be asked and never accepted into the group.
I was wondering this. I'm willing to watch other people drink but not drink myself.
@@Seacle14 just drink tea at the 飲み会
@@UnimportantAcc I will.
Then im screwd
Yeah, my experience has been that people who go drinking and drink oolong cha are still seen as group participants. Though that might not be a ton of fun to be sober while your bosses get wasted and talk shit. 😂
I'm at an international dorm right now. And i had a reunion once i moved in.
They explicity told us ( and couldn't stress that more than enough) that forcing someone to drink was a BIG no no and that no one should be excluded because his refusal to drink.
Considering the culture behind 飲み会 and my opinion on alcohol ( it's basically poison for the brain, it sucks that it is well percieved in almost every culture of the world...)
I was gladly suprised.
For what it's worth, this can be directly applied to the culture in South Korea, too.
Felt the same while I lived there!
@@Dogen I used to be a hagwon English teacher. I can verify the push for after-work drinks.
Please continue this style of video!
Modern korea is just aping what japan went through at this point
Video is so on point! Just comes down to how much of your own identity you're willing to sacrifice to have a more comfortable life here
And again, you nailed it. As someone who does not drink, I often felt like something was missing, despite trying my best at fitting in otherwise.
Fantastic video essay, Dogen. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you❤ I love this type of videos❤ I'm really happy I'm able to lear about Japanese life style, culture and other when I can't go there, but it's possible thanks to you 😊
This was a really good video dogen, thanks. Helps reaffirm my plans of spending a lot of time at small bars to improve my japanese and hopefully make friends there
Dogen Sensei, Please make more of these videos to enlighten us with your tremendous knowledge of Japanese culture. 🙌
Really appreciate others talking about this and making videos about it; this subject used to get brought up in conversations back in the day as well but now with a more organized youtube and more people watching these videos, hopefully this can be used as a "beginner's course" of sorts on the kind of culture and ideas behind the japanese way of life and their parties / online presence.
This was very insightful. Thank you!
I'm impressed with your understanding of the Japanese culture. Not an easy topic, but you explained it very well. Good content.
Awesome to see yet another video anout in-depth culture aspects 🙌🏻
As always, great video. I’m always happy when I see a notification about a new video from Dogen.
For those who don’t usually drink, but can do it safely, Dogen is spot on. Having a drink with coworkers or clients helps things move forward. As a person who can’t drink, I probably pay the price for turning down alcohol. However, I did close a $1Mil software deal without consuming a drop of alcohol.
amazing video, very very insightful.
Dogen you were already great but this kind of content just shows your storytelling abilities to its fullest - viva Dogen!
That makes a lot of sense. Great summary, I hadn’t considered the social implications.
This is how I introduced your video in my International cafe on Line and in Facebook:
I don't drink alcohol--much; occasionally a glass or a few cups of sake. The new evidence sweeping the health and medical communities is conclusive--it poisons you, if you drink on a regular basis, ruining your dopamine levels, increasing your chances of cancer and heart disease and shrinking your brain--and this is not alcohol use disorder sufferers, it is everyone who drinks regularly--no matter how little. But this is a fascinating video. And, the author is like me; he only drinks several times a year.
Dogen, when I return to Japan, in a few weeks, can I go out with coworkers and not drink?
Superbly appreciative of this semi longform content! I'm visiting Beppu next month!!!
Dogen has that insight to talk about Japanese culture in a very understandable way at length.
A very insightful view on drinking culture. I like you tackling these serious issues. Very sound judgement and articulation in expressing our western drinking cultural differences. Great video!
Honestly, I like just getting the ad out of the way at the start :)
Interesting. Makes me think of drinking culture in Eastern European countries where we also bond over drinking. Probably has roots in constant historical strife, too - just of a different nature.
Great thoughtful video, thank you for sharing this with us.
I have gout and I'm also really allergic to the most common treatment, but I learned the word for gout in japanese and when I went to a nomikai my co-workers were very understanding and after some beers they did not pressure me to continue drinking or anything. We had a blast and I cannot wait to go with them again (we work in different countries 😅)
Cheers, mate!
This video is so well done ❤ I'm looking forward to similar ones
I found this video really insightful, and it was interesting to consider my own experience in Japan in this narrative.
Ultimately after years of living there I felt like “I will never be fully accepted here, I’ll always be an outsider to them.” But your point about “how many boxes you check” makes me realize there may have been inflexibilities in my own word view that prevented me from checking all the boxes. Maybe I wasn’t fully accepted because I didn’t really fully conform. I often checked the boxes that were convenient or interesting for me, but not things like long meetings, working late, volunteering on my day off, etc.
gotta leave my big comment 😅 btw I feel like Dogen becomes a so confident and strong minded person when he starts speaking English! i would like even to hear more English / american speaking videos besides Japanese! i just reminded how beautiful English actually is! - the sad thing about alcoholism in Japan is that its an alcoholism - as a female i can just adding that japanese mens using alcohol as an way to " make it out with a girl " approach a girl -
a date starts mainly 98 % in drinking enviroments.
even i would say 99%
they use alcohol to asking approaching - if she wants to date them - they use alcohol to be able to even have a conversation with a woman -
or in bars and hostessclubs - they use alcohol or sometimes pretend as if they where drunk as an excuse to get closer to the lady's seat or acting as if they would accidentially not been in controll over emotions due to the alc.
them pretending to not remember what they did? and the excuse to hear oh?! i did that? oh i dont remember sorry i have a wife actually - i was just drunk..... thats what i seen from many customers saying in hostessclubs to their clients. alcohol is used as a excuse to cross boundarys and whenever something goes wrong in terms of ( cheating ) or relationships boundarys are crossed
the term " oh sorry i was just drunk " is widely acceptable and the norm... that makes it really sad society - thats why there exist all these hostessclubs -
mens believe aslong they drunk all is allowed and excuse to get closer to other females while beeing engaged or married -
by saying i dont remember
sorry - i was drunk i was another person that " nightout "
( i guess for ladys that goes too as well) - japanese have issues to set boundarys in general - and same that goes for the alcohol.
( i worked as hostess in Japan and i have seen all these married mens with kids and wallpapers of kids on their phones, cheating on their wifes in girls bars & Hostessclubs ) -
btw. the most unattractive thing about a guy is if he cant be men enouth to say " no " against the norm - thats probably why, i might never be ever attracted to japanese guys as a foreigner female.
I moved to Japan at the beginning of the year and am out here in a rural part of Kitakyushu since May. I never went out to drink back in America, but have drank more in the past few months of being here than I probably have in my entire life before coming to Japan. I think, for me at least, a lot of it comes from not needing to worry about driving, and people in general just being way more chill here. I know that there's always some exception, but not having someone randomly try to start a fight with me for no reason or worry about getting shot out in the French Quarter in New Orleans makes being able to relax and have a few drinks much much easier.
You nailed it! I couldn’t agree almost every information about Japanease cultural mind from social media.
You are perfect, I agree 100%.
Came here for the beer. Got floored by your knowledge. GREAT VIDEO (from some dumb east coast American that just got home from Tokyo).
I like seeing a variety of videos like this from you! Great choice of topic!
I’d love to hear the Japanese Buddhist perspective and especially as it relates to the fifth precept of not drinking.
Your last sentence was the most important one: Provided the foreigners trying their best to act Japanese. It packs so much to explain about the Japanese society.
Seems very similar to Sweden actually! Really like these videos Dogen cheers
So the Japanese and the Irish have a lot in common in this respect. More difficult to get to know them if you don’t drink with them. Not impossible but a lot more difficult. Thanks for your insights Mr O Donnell!
Thank you Dogen! These videos are fascinating and very helpful. Keep em coming 🥰
Yes, if you do not drink, some Japanese people will not see you as a friend.
Yes, if you dont drink, you may never see your Japanese colleagues 本音
The real question is, are you willing to compromise your personal beliefs for others approval?
You could compare it to high school. Are you going to take a hit of that joint just to be apart of the cool kids?
Are you going to drink just so you could be accepted by your Japanese community?
Me personally, if someone is willing to exclude you cause of your hestinacy to take drugs (yes, alcohol is a drug), then that is a reflection on their character.
I lived in Japan for 3 years and spoke Japanese at a conversational level (n4). I made tons of Japanese friends. Admittingly, most of my Japanese friends were rebels in Japanese society, and western minded in a sense.
But I liked them. Whether I met them in Japan, or the west, I wouldve been friends with them regardless. Cause we enjoyed each others company.
Not being friends with Yamamoto-san cause I didnt show up to the 飲み会, i wasnt losing any sleep over that
Yamamoto-san could be a G tho
N4 is conversational?
@@Dogen Maybe I don't want to be friends with a G, especially if that's the requirement for entry.
@@TragicGFuel I was able to hold fun conversations when I barely had N5. The JLPT may be terrible to rank your language skills, but if you know half the N4 words and grammar you can communicate somewhat. Your speaking ability develops from listening and speaking, so practice is all it takes. I do know a ton of foreigners who can barely pass N3 but have way better communication skills than someone with N1. For example, most workers who came under the ssw visa have just n4, but they work alongside the Japanese without problems.
@@shiroi5672 ig i had a different meaning of conversational, I would say it is being able to talk about stuff without making obvious mistakes
I’ve always known that Japan was a collectivist culture but I have never heard it explained with such detail and nuance. 👌🏼 I learned a lot! Thanks!
Liked that you put the ad first, nice decision and video
Serious video is always welcome Dogen sir
Excellent! I stayed with a Japanese family for a month while I studied Japanese. And even in their home we rarely got into topics of their inner thoughts. Thank you for explaining those two different parts, the inner for outer thought process!
I just noticed now that your ears are pointy, and I can't stop imagining you as an elf ever since I saw this video.
Extremely illuminating. Thank you for sharing.
Incredibly insightful video, thank you so much Dogen!!!
who would've thought fitting in and respecting the culture could get you so far!