Resolved: The Government Should Cut Off All Funding to Colleges and Universities
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- Опубліковано 23 тра 2018
- Should all government funding of higher education be abolished?
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On May 14, 2018, that provocative resolution was debated by economists Edward Glaeser and Bryan Caplan, author of the new book, The Case Against Education: Why the Education System is a Waste of Time and Money. Two main arguments dominated the discussion. First, was the humanistic question: Is government support needed to foster new ideas and cultural expression? Second, the economics of the matter: Does the hundreds of billions in annual government funding to American universities and colleges benefit the country by boosting the earnings and productivity of its citizens?
Caplan is a professor of economics at George Mason University, research fellow at the Mercatus Center, and adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute. His other books include The Myth of the Rational Voter and Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids: Why Being a Great Parent is Less Work and More Fun Than You Think. He holds a Ph.D. in economics from Princeton University.
Edward Glaeser argued against the resolution. A professor of economics at Harvard University, where he has taught since 1992, Glaeser has served as director of the Taubman Center for State and Local Government, and director of the Rappaport Institute for Greater Boston. His academic work has focused on zoning, housing policy, and urbanism, and he's the author of the 2012 book Triumph of the City: How Our Greatest Invention Makes Us Richer, Smarter, Greener, Healthier, and Happier.
The Soho Forum, which Reason sponsors, is a monthly Oxford-style debate, meaning that the audience votes before and after the proceedings, and the debater who has moved the most people prevails. In this case, Caplan won by convincing 12 percent of the audience to switch over to his side.
The opening act was comedian Dave Smith, host of the podcast Part of the Problem.
Visit the archive of past Soho Forum events.
Next month, watch law professors Randy Barnett and Michael Dorf debate the following resolution: "The U.S. Constitution should be interpreted and applied according to the original meaning communicated to the public by the words of the text." The debates are held at the SubCulture Theater in Manhattan's East Village. Tickets here.
To listen to an audio podcast version of the Soho Forum, subscribe to the Reason Podcast at iTunes.
"Massive" by Podington Bear is licensed under a Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 International License.
Produced by Todd Krainin.
It bears repeating that being against government education is not the same as being against education.
Straight White Male No it isn't, not even a little bit. I'm also against the Gov being the primary provider of food, clothing, and housing, not because I want the poor and working classes to go around naked and starving but because the free market has a track record of providing more goods and services to more people at lower cost than Gov.
09mrmarshall The public schools in America we're created to produce obedient soldiers and factory workers. In case you hadn't noticed the public schools are doing a horrible jjob of educating the poor.
To recap then we agree that withholding education is bad for the poor and that the current public education system is doing exactly this (your excuses for why not withstanding). You support this system that we both agree is keeping the poor down and I oppose it in favor of a free market system that I believe would provide better education to nearly everyone, including the poor. I'm not claiming that a free market system would be perfect, that's an absurd strawman, only that it is the best system currently known for providing the most goods/services to the most people and therefore would serve education far better than the existing broken system.
Also, schooling isn't education. It is fake education. Government schooling even worse because it is compulsive and subsidized fake education.
@09mrmarshall Charter schools on average do better.. So do private schools. I think schools in general disenfranchise a good percent of people, my public highschool removed all trade classes except for ceramics.. Schools see college as the only route, I can remember numerous times when teachers said, 'that kid isn't going to college' as an insult. Most careers require refined skills and narrow knowledge, while college teaches mostly general knowledge(especially undergrad). I enjoyed my history and psych classes I was required to take, but I could have learned history and psych on my own time. A four year degree really could be condensed to 1-2 years. Also, lectures are a really poor way to learn, imo, the best way is by doing.
Caplan got more reaction out of the audience than the comedian did
Caplan is a funny dude
that wasn't a comedian that was dave smith
He is funny cause he is right
The comedian was a joke ironically.
The shortened title in my sub feed was "resolved; the government should stop all funding"
I was like, "that seems a bit extreme, but I'm open to it in principle..."
Sure, privatize all of the things. Check out David Friedman's Machinery of Freedom if you haven't already seen it.
Stopping all funding is cool!
James Adams then everyone have to pay even more and owe even more money (if they can even get financing since without guaranteed return they won't Finance student without any credit history) to get educated. We already have people who can't pay their student loans. Lol
College tuitions went up entirely due to the Federal government funding student loans. Get rid of government financing and college tuitions would fall back again. I graduated in 1977 with a Masters of Science and my father was able to pay for it entirely out of pocket.
David Hunt actually this is opposite of what actually happened. Government cut spending and banks took over but banks won't Finance without guaranteed return so government guaranteed the banks and that's why you cannot file bankruptcy on student loan.
Most of the people I know with college degrees haven't cracked a non-fiction book since graduating. So much for "learning how to learn" and "higher education."
I did... partly because I was unemployed when I graduated in 2010...
I also did, but I believe I would have done it regardless of going or not through college. (That's just the nature of the IT market)
I read a lot more non fiction prior to getting a BA. After a second master’s, I pretty much only watch UA-cam videos
Never in my life have I seen such a civil yet impassioned debate. What a relief! Kudos to Bryan and Ed!
If higher education was so beneficial to society, imagine how amazing we'd be if all of our students didn't have to drag themselves to classes and actually spent those 4 years seeking true higher education. If I could get my 5 years of college back and spend it on something more enriching than silly classes, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
The problem with colleges is that you only realize how useless the whole ordeal is after you get your diploma. No one really cares about the information you were able to retain, only that you are a fast learner and can deliver what the master wants from you.
Higher education has its place, but its stupid to push everyone into it and look down upon people that don't go.
Travis Tarp like on the movie: good will hunting. People drop $160,000 on a worthless degree when they could have spent $1.50 on late fees at the public library
The question i want to ask 3 years after the fact is what is the ultimate goal of education and is there a diminishing return to education. If there is a society that has had no mass education and introduce mass education occurs there is going to be a return.
Like what streaming video games & screaming like a madman ???
Nearly every person I know with college degrees has lots of debt, few skills, and a job that does not require their degree or training (or lack thereof).
That is most likely a product of your environment. Every person with a degree that I know directly used their skills gained in college in their careers and have been very successful. But that is because I have been successful enough that all my close coworkers and neighbors are also successful.
If I worked in a low skill trade in a low to mid-income area, most likely all the college graduates I knew would have not used their degree to become successful. If they had, they wouldn't work with me or live close to me.
Government is best at misallocating capital and suppressing freedom.
This applies to government in education: running schools, backing student loans and any and all other funding for education.
What happens when companies misallocate capital and what happens when governments does it?
Government does not protect your freedom that is the problem, it slowly takes it away, little by little, law by law, regulation by regulations, tax by tax.
@@2vnews902 Business go bankrupt, if it's government, they just get more funding via taxpayer's so, in that sense, inefficiency in business means bankrupt.
it's not just a government problem...the problem is school itself. It needs to be gotten rid of. Period. This is not a government vs free market issue so good job, pseudo intellectual libertarian mentally deficient parasite...social democracy is still the only way to go...maybe the brilliant Chicago School would say different, the existence is which is EXACTLY WHY education is BS...or at least a big part of the reason 😂😂
Comedian is done at 11:05.
Thank you, it was upsetting my stomach watching him pause for non existent laughter...
Comedian?
Who whould skip Dave Smith ;)
Is this peak libertarian humor?
he bombed like he was a Nobel peace prize POTUS
I know PhDs I wouldn't trust to take my order at chick fill a. I know people without a degree id trust to design a ship. It's all about the metrics used to determine competency.
I like how the debate was effectively a question of, "Should we eliminate federal funding for higher education or simply slash it to a small percentage of its current level?" I'd be happy if the ideas of either of these people were implemented because they are both going in the right direction. Just as I would vote for any spending bill that reduces spending overall (not just a reduction in the amount of increase). I'm not going to vote no on a reduction because it doesn't reduce as much as I would like. I'm happy to take baby steps.
Noel Fallstrom i thought the same thing myself lol, just debating the degree...
That said i would advise you don't vote for anything, especially anything or anyone on ballots... voting for who won this debate i cam support ;)
Tocqueville mentioned how super educated americans were. Jefferson complained that college students barely spoke Latin and barely read Greek. Clearly public education has greatly advanced our standards.
The pro government support of colleges sounds simply like the "who will build the roads" argument.
"Studies have shown that roads allow people to travel faster, farther than in areas where there aren't roads. Therefore, government must provide roads."
Exactly! In my community, we paved the road that has mutile holes and cracks on it. Yes it was expensive, but we did it 1/4 of the price in only 3 months.
Edward is actually quite reasonable and rational. I'd consider him a moderate. I'd wish they would have gotten a third party who wanted to massively expand government education spending.
Well, it's the SoHo forum, so it's hard to find someone sufficiently big-government who'd be willing come down and get booed by libertarians for an hour.
This was a really great debate, thank you so much for hosting it on UA-cam Reason.
Standup ends at 11:04
Thanks. I heard two minutes from him. Not really funny.
Who the fuck does stand up before a debate lmao
Wow I’ve actually cited some of Mr. Glaeser’s work in research for college papers. That’s cool to see him in person here. And I remember Mr. Caplan from his time on the Rubin Report.
Government involved equals: Inflation of prices, expectations and self-worth.
I am currently studying Actuarial MATHEMATICS (don't confuse that with Actuarial Science) at a good value university. In order to get a Bachelors you need at least 120 Credit Hours. I am going to be very honest. Only about 57 CREDIT HOURS are useful for my career. I include three courses for economics, and an upper level English course that allowed me to put some BS about actuarial studies in my resume.
I seriously think the USA should stop with the whole "we want a well rounded student." Learning about classical literature and the arts won't make me a better candidate for a job. How about you save me and other tax payers money so that once I ACTUALLY get a good job I can go to museums and travel to learn about the humanities ?
It felt nice to get that off my chest.
The main argument for this classes, and I encourage you to see William Derezwitchs talk in Aspen about what is college for, is that those classes align with religious studies and philosophy are meant to be used to give you a space to become a “moral being”. Colleges in the past had this as a main mission rather than getting you a job.
> Vietnam ranks at the top of science, math and reading, yet they are extremely poor country. The reason why Japan, Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan became wealthy is because of their economic model called The East Asian Economic Model which is a form of State Capitalism. An export-driven model. It has nothing to do with education.
> Russia scores higher than US on Math, Science and Reading, yet Russia is a lot poorer than the US.
> The reason why some of the former Warsaw Pack countries are now rich and democratic is not because of better schooling, which does play a role, but it is mostly because they were successful in reforming their judicial system and opening up their economy. There are a lot of specific factors that need to be looked at that varies depending on the country. Kazakhstan did not had a change in their political elite after the fall of communism, the same oligarchs remained in power, and they are a lot more dependent economically on Russia.
> Abolishing government funding for universities does not mean abolishing higher education. Most of the top universities in the US are private.
> Education and Schooling are two different things.
> More schooling does not mean more productivity. Japan ranks at the top of every education index, yet they are 5 times less productive than America.
That creepy uncle we all have... uncle Sam... this is fiscal harassment, they keep touching my assets!
The problem is people that are skilled in the labor force don’t like training people that could replace them or oversaturate the market. If we could find a good way to train people up from the people who are already skilled. But I think the most important thing is for people to find their own creative skill that they enjoy doing.
Excellent thoughts from Caplan.
The hug at the end was awesome.
I went to college right out of high school. I had a good GPA and a pretty good SAT (3.5 and 1250 respectively). I went for a major in Comp Sci, and I failed my first two semesters. I wasn't ready both mentally and physically to be doing these things, but I got almost a full ride from the pell grant, a few other grants, and a small amount of stafford loans. Now I'm going back for a different major after some time to mature and I'm surprised that I still am eligible for pell grants and fed sub loans. It's ridiculous that I qualify, and of course I am happy. But do I really qualify for these?
Its not that all higher education is bad but possibly many degrees don't give people employable skills.
When I saw the thumbnail for this video, I thought the guy with the glasses was Andy Dick.
I've watched a few Soho Forum Debates and I think the public questions in this one were the best I've ever seen.
For example the guy who is saying why children are taught art and music when they don't know how to write or read.
He is completely ignorant of the very elementary science who points out how music and arts contribute to academic success.. ..This is elementary...
"Separate college and state" .. best line
Great (and, importantly, civil) debate - thanks for uploading it. Is Edward Glaeser related to the comedian Will Arnett, by any chance? Once I'd spotted the similarity, I couldn't stop seeing it!
That's interesting, because I was convinced he looks like Marc Evan Jackson instead.
Prosperity due to Capitalism led to more spending on education, not vice versa. Absolutely true.
I've met too many people where I try to start a conversation with them on that main subject that there college major is about and they are not interested in conversing about it. You'd think if your going to college for something you'd be obsessed over it enough to talk for hours on it but I guess not.
true....... absolutely true!!!
The Soho Forum broadcasts its live events only to Facebook, not UA-cam. If you want to view past videos, you are required to have a Facebook login. Nope nope nope, hey Soho, get a clue.
Get your tinfoil hats out, people
Why should I have to pay for a service I’m not using?
lmao why did they start the debate with a standup routine
year after year …. questions are not time limited … and … there is no “kill switch” both debaters were very awesome
Loved both of them this was great
me reading the title: yus pls want
me 2 minutes in: oh god who is this man like why pls no _skips to the debate start at __12:40_
bless you for that timestamp
"If it were mostly signalling, someone would have figured out a cheaper signal long ago." But would it be legal to discriminate on that signal like you can on education? Anyone is going to get laughed out of court saying that they were discriminated against when the guy that got the job has a PhD vs their GED, but an industry certificate might not fair so well - particularly if there is 'limited availability' of the certificate e.g. Employee-only....
That guy needs to meet some of these "highly educated" Chinese kids. I've never met kids so good at getting high grades while at the same time being dumber than stumps. It is truly frightening. They are taught how to pass tests, not how to think, and it shows.
I've also met intelligent people that are awful at social interactions, or they show a complete dependency on their parents
What's wrong with working your way through college? You'll have a greater appreciation and spend your most labor productive years doing more manual work.
Edward Glaeser claims that the difference between Seattle and Detroit is that Seattle has 50% college grads, while Detroit is 12%. So if we take half of the high school grads in Detroit and throw them into college and force them to get passing grades, that fixes the problem?
I second the motion!
Also, this is like watching Lebron play 1 vs 1 basket basketball against Ben Shapiro. Caplan's arguments are infinitely better.
They really should have left the 'comedy' out. The guy is clearly a poor storyteller, and I'd like to think that there are better libertarian comedy lines than generalisations like 'aren't college kids just the worst' ffs
"Bad ideas just kind of dont go anywhere..." What on Earth kind of a statement is that? The Gulag was first an idea.
Poor people need financial freedom, not the college debt.
What if you had an entire country of Lawyers or Doctors or Engineers?
vs.
A diverse population of every level of education/skill/occupation/etc.?
Please provide an example of where the government successfully anticipated market trends and put programs in place, on time on budget, and delivered 100% of expected results. Two constraints: examples cannot involve military-industrial complex, nor can they involve dumb luck.
Yes! Until new agreements are made regarding charging insane amount of tuition. And having staffs with high diversity of opinions.
If separation of church & state is a good idea, then separation of education & state is an even more imperative idea. If all institutions of education were to enjoy the same privileges and immunities that institutions of religion enjoy,... respect for education would again become the norm rather than being regarded as the trash bin it is treated as today.
Religion is faith-based. Education is the only path to success in a competitive world.
Education from the state is also faith based. If you don't think it is then you're already in the religion of statism.
"Education is the only path to success in a competitive world." Perhaps, but this isn't a debate about the value of 'education'; it's a debate about whether certain organisations in the USA should receive public funding.
Here: The whole thing has been resolved in Finland : ua-cam.com/video/ZwD1v73O4VI/v-deo.html
Maybe universities are like political parties. Leave one in power too long, they develop all sorts of bureaucracy and cover ups. Maybe each uni should only be funded for 4 years, with funding after the term prioritised for new unis if any, and going in a sort of turn based cycle if not. It's just a thought, sorry to offend, I don't actually know much about the logistics in running a uni
Who gives a fuck? Shouldn't we be focused on the trillion dollar war machine? Education spending is peanuts by comparison.
I've seen some of the videos at the SOHO forum. I will watch this but I'm already betting that no one will mention basic education. IMHO, Higher Education dos not equal better citizens - good basic and high school education are the most important.
Of course, I would also bet no one will mention the subsides that enter college through DARPA and other defense contracts.
Now ... I just started hearing and I cannot confirm I'll be able to get to the end.
Brazil had this writer, theater critic and foreign news analyst who had only high school. His name was Paulo Francis. From 18 to 25 years of age, he read 8 hours a day. He was the foreign analyst for TV Globo, had a full page on O Estado de São Paulo (the oldest newspaper in Brazil) and was part of the Manhattan Connection show on a cable channel owned by TV Globo. That was the end of his career - he started as a theater and literature critic at age 25.
This first lecturer already shows why Trump got elected. "I'm more successful than all of them" is Trump's moto - success is the most important thing. He's also talking about his own experience as if it were the average experience - considering there's such a thing as "average experience". Well ... just found out he was not one of the debaters ... I guess I might watch it to the end.
More comments will follow ...
can't they stop argue, and show data?
50% of college students shouldn't even be in college let alone my tax payor dollars paying for it.
Udemy, Coursera, Next-U and other remote training sites will eventually overcome high EXPENSIVE college.
Neither party's presentation was rich in evidence.
Good grief, can we kill the opening stand up routine and just get to the good stuff?
no 'opening acts' please .
Government funding or not, I feel like education desperately needs a revolution.
In my personal experience there's just so much waste, and so little focus on stuff that actually matters.
After I finished formal education I discovered a love for learning which is much greater than when that was able to dedicate full time to it.
One video I love on this matter is "The Most Humiliating Event In Michio Kaku's Life":
ua-cam.com/video/bAzQGzYecqk/v-deo.html
So what are you doing to change it??
@@AcidiFy574 Non-governamental education is getting better and better all the time.
UA-cam is fantastic for learning things.
As for working "within the system"... I don't really have high hopes for this approach. I just think the incentive structure is all messed up. My hope is that more and more parents start to home-school.
@@DiogoVKersting How about this then ?
Make education free (Freedom+cost-free)
& how many YT tutorials are just honeypots to get you to sign up for a crappy bootcamp
@1:27:00 That is actually something I would get behind!!!! If actually reward citizens being lawful... they will be ! What a concept!!!!
@1:28:35 That's a lot like saying: "How in the heck are we going to cut out that greed gene from the gene pool?"
We should cut off all funding to Colleges and Universities except for stem programs.
Good way to ruin STEM fields
I'm just looking for some fudge to pack, some stool to push in
Bryan Caplin has recently once again been confirmed in his observations here. Harvard is but a hedge fund masquarding as an institution of higher learning.
Do they address mis-education.
Don't cut off funding to Universities. Cut off funding to the trash fire that are humanities departments.
I don't get Ed's point for Microsoft Bill is a drop out
State funded schooling is designed to school not educate.
Except it does educate. It just doesn't teach.
Learning facts, figures, and dates is useless if you don't understand what they mean.
Flame Fusion If the state pretends to teach the children pretend to be educated.
cool hand What? 😂😂😂
Flame Fusion My point exactly.
One word applied to most of the arguments: Inflation
Inflation of prices, expectations and self-worth.
Actually it's because of government cuts. Since Reagan American has cut their public education a lot. As far as highschool, American spends a lot on sports and transportation.
nope
Look up stave the beast strategy. Also yes. You won't find any country in the world that invest so much in sports and no other country has school bus system.
Meaningless.
Just rephrase "government funding" with "theft" and the argument becomes much more clear.
The statement “more educated countries are more productive” is really a fallacy. That doesn’t mean that becoming more educated will turn your country more productive. As the other speaker says, we are now getting college degrees to do the same things our parents did with high school degrees. Secondly, formal secondary education is not the only education there is. You can be highly competent in your field with on the job training and have never been to college. It is clear that we have way too many kids going to college, and because of that and the government subsidies, it’s completely unaffordable.
Why don’t more debates have a comedy session before the debate?
Why arent presidential or any debates between politicians this intellectual?
There is nothing in the way of federal funding that is small and doesn't do some damage.
Sensei
Powerful people don’t care u criticize. Nothing gonna change
There are objectives markers scientifically accepted and internationally highly esteemed to evaluate an education system.
And according to these markers countries who have well funded public education, not focus on tests but on educational freedom with respected and well paid teachers with some kind of tenure have the best educational outcomes .Finland for example - per ALL objective high quality markers they they gave the best education .....PIsa results etc - check it out ......
End of public financing for education, by no means imply the end of all learning. It actually implies end of education and beginning of learning.
that comedy warm-up was the weirdest thing I’ve been encountered in the last 30 minutes
At first I thought this was Jordan Peterson vs Sam Hyde
Correlation isn't causation. Perhaps rich countries have the most people going to school, than spending tens of thousands to be schooled leads to riches. Until you try, it's impossible to know for sure, but government spending on government schools could perhaps be much better used by redistributing the wealth rather than providing the "service." Variety is the spice of life and drives innovation to meet actual needs rather than any one-size-fits-all tyranny. Education is useful, but government manages to ruin it and make it tired and never-changing.
Lastly, there's the law of diminishing returns. Most of the gains of the poorest nations were to create basic literacy, which is likely a big gain over being illiterate. Less so when it becomes gender studies, perhaps, or teaching trigonometry to everyone regardless of any interest. Also, I'd bet those poor nations also received huge funding from investors to build industry, as it's unlikely more graduates from primary school somehow create great new industries and businesses.
Who told this guy he was funny? He's like the kid in my high school who *thought* he was funny but refused to believe his friends when they said he wasn't. This was painful to watch for 5 minutes....
I think a question should be added is WHAT ARE PEOPLE STUDYING? "People make more money when they are educated."
Do this. Get data for three groups of people: hs diploma only, 4 year degree in STEM, and 4 year degree in humanities. I bet you will see people in STEM will do overwhelming do better than those with a hs diploma only with LITTLE variance in earnings. The humanities group will probably make on average SLIGHTLY more than those with a hs diploma only.
People who are doing well with a humanities degree are doing a job they could have done even without degree and just plain job experience. Or they had an epiphany and got a STEM degree. LOL!!!
ought you be forced to pay for the education of others, or ought you not be forced? you can argue utility all day without touching on the fact that you are forced. your opinion matters as much to the tax collectors as the preferences of broiler chickens to not be hung upside down and have their throats slit. as borat says before bagging his bride to be "consent not required..."
If high schools did a good job there would be a very limited need for college. If college education was such a successful endeavor that was deserving of federal funding the graduation rate would not be 50 percent and we would not have a cumulative student loan crisis of 1.5 trillion dollars. Probably only about 10 percent of the people in universities actually deserve to be there. The rest are wasting their time and money that doesn't belong to them. Using public funding to make college more accessible to poor folks, but financially enslaving everyone else for decades at the same time is not a good idea.
Some kids would rather commit suicide than learn math. How can schools fix that problem? Assisted suicide options?
Excellent discussion. Of course a Ed went to Harvard. Look at what we wears lol.
It is common sense that the education controlled by a small group of elite at the top, will direct into a specific direction which will only benefit the status quo.
Edward brings up his "feelings" way too much for a Harvard professor, but maybe not
Excellent defense of very controversial point.
Caplan slaughtered this guy. I wouldnt call this a debate!
yeah .. you should go to one of the most expensive schools in the world ESPECIALY when you're poor
And the Harvard guy dropped the ax and picket the whip up! haha
I must tell, however, that there's a country in the world who's made a incredible magic: increase years of education without any change in productivity: Brazil, where I live and was born. When Lula (PT - Workers Party) was president, he fired the biggest figure, from his own party, who has championed education since forever and hired someone else. What did he do? Gave semaphores to everybody but no education. We now have more people with college degrees than people who can read complex texts in Portuguese. But ... this is Brazil ... where magic is reality and when you add the Propaganda machine that party still has to the mix ... you get even bigger magic.
in norway a capenteter earn almost the same as a colleges graduete true his lifetime
hawk eye Stong unions, and highly progressive taxation make sure of it.
hurkamur1 haddent it been for the unions the carpenter had earned more. My point is low education can give almost the same pay. And there sosal skills are not lower.
@@hawkeye2644 Yeah. People want free education but these countries in Europe actually have decent returns from NOT going to college DESPITE college being FREE
LOL the Aleppo joke!
No, cut out corporate welfare, and unnecessary/unconstitutional wars. Invest MORE in higher education.
This dude skinny dude seems like he is probably correct. But his sureness about himself probably scares people away
Probably, but as you alluded to, truth does not care about his attitude.