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Living in northern Maine and running a range of diesel equipment, this is a subject near and dear. Never really thought about the higher density of cold air affecting its compressibility, but that makes perfect sense. I got away from ether for a while due to concerns about cylinder wall wash down, but have begun using again - sparingly - now that some claim “lubricity”. Hope springs eternal, my fellow simian.
Hi could you please do a video about de acert engine? It's very common as I'm sure you know in the trucking world with the C15s. I know the CAT answer is not to do it. You don't have to endorse it but could you give a review on what you know and what you've seen in your experience? For example rebuilding an MXS acert to a single turbo 6nz type of setup
I work on big 645 and 710 locomotive engines, and these have NO glow plugs. Locomotives typically stay running all winter long and never shut down. Locomtives don't run antifreeze. Some of them have air starters and some have electric starters. GE's have an inverter starting system, which means no physical starter. EMD's have either air, electric, or both. The only good way to start them when cold is with hot water. The engines have to be prefilled with hot water, then started. On rare occasions, we take rags soaked in diesel fuel, put them in the air boxes, and light the rags on fire to get enough heat into the cylinder to light them off. I've had calls from the fire department asking if we had a fire emergency when cold starting a locomotive. 😂 Such good times!
My great grandfather used to tell us about back in the 30s living on the farm and dealing with motors in the winter. He said they used to have to drain the oil on the car when they got home from anywhere and keep it in the house next to the wood stove to keep it warm. And then quick fill it up right before they’d start it or it would never start in the cold on its own. I can’t imagine!
My grandma's dad did the same thing with his old Internationals and Model Ts--if it's cold enough (didn't happen all the time where he was, but it did happen) you just dump the oil into a galvanized tub (not the good one!) and then transfer it into an old milk can (also not a good one!) Sit that puppy next to the nice, hot stove and you'll have no troubles. The 30s were rough, for sure.
That was interesting to read, reminded me of a memory. During winter, my dad used to drain the water from his tractor, and filled it up with warm water before use. Needless to say, that engine was toast anyway, mismatched piston, rings installed in wrong order, cracked head... We ran it until the liner O-rings started leaking. It's been rebuilt since, and starts easy enough, despite being a pre-chamber engine.
I found a way to make my diesel easy to start in the winter, I take my RV down south and don't go back north until summer. I realize many folks, as in not retired like me, don't have that option so this was good stuff to know. Keep the good stuff coming buddy.
I became familiar with the manifold flame system used on the M48 and M60 Army tanks that used the Continental 1790 engine. There was a flame generation device located in a steel section of the intake manifold where a hand pump operated by the driver along with energizing the starter solenoid would allow a spark igniter to build a flame in the intake. The electrical interlock with the starter solenoid was needed to prevent igniting the fuel if air was not moving in the intake. I have seen this system used on some European diesels also.
Going back in time to when we used pony motors to start the main diesel, one of the strategies to a good start, was not to be in a hurry. Squatch 253 is a proponent of the "get the cylinders good and hot before sending in the fuel" way of doing things. That thing, is to let the pony motor spin over the big engine on compression for a while, letting some heat accumulate in the cylinders, before introducing what will be relatively "cold" fuel. This applies in all seasons, but is crucial in the cold. Spraying the "cold" fuel, even in the summertime, into a cylinder where the rings might be tired, the valves may not be sealing well, whatever the reason, when you spray the fuel in, if things aren't hot enough in there already, the "cold" fuel is going to cool things right down and make compression ignition a whole lot harder. Yes, in warm weather, if after the engine has been running already, you have a better chance of getting the big engine to fire on the first strokes, and it can be a success with injectors sending fuel instantly, but the warm-up-the-cylinders-first idea is a tested, proven method. Fast-forward to today with modern, computer-controlled fuel injection diesel engines, and you will find that the ECM's are programmed to let the engine spin over a few complete revolutions before telling the injection system to begin firing. That gives the cylinders the best chance to build a little heat before the "cold" fuel start spraying in. It might seem counter-intuitive to the beginner to be wasting battery cranking power allowing the engine to roll over several revs before firing, but that is the reasoning behind it.
Ive been working on diesel engines for about 4 years now , I’m only 19 , I like to think I’m knowledgeable on the subject but you have been an invaluable resource in my journey to learning how these machines work , and it seems like I still learn something new every time you post one of these videos
I work on Carrier reefer units. If I may ask, I’d like to know how you connect to the ECU on these. The connector has a ton of pins but most of them are not used in the harness. Is it over the CAN wires? Special adapters? What software do I need? Thanks and God bless 🙏🏻
@@markm0000 it’s all proprietary software, connectors, and computer programs. Yes it’s probably the two wire square connector that uses CAN. I do not work on those industrial units but they’re very similar to tractors. Blessings to you!
Working in Upstate New York I have had a little experience with these problems both in the Army, Fort Drum, and working for SWIFT, Syracuse, as a mechanic. In the Army, I have had several different cold weather start systems Glow Plugs, and Either Start systems, and the best I experienced was in the old Deuce and a half trucks. They installed a spark plug into the intake and the firing of the spark plug would preheat the air. I never had one not start on the first try. When I worked for SWIFT Corporate would not let us cut the fuel in the wintertime. Jonestown PA could but according to them, it was not cold enough in Syracuse NY to require that. I would spend 12 hours a day outside rescuing gelled-up trucks in the yard. Pull the fuel filters and see the jello diesel sludge, replace fuel filters, and add Rescue 911 to the fuel, and the filter wait for a half hour, then start the truck and get the driver on their way. We were having issues above freezing one day and my manager questioned my intelligence because "there is no way these trucks are gelled up it 's not cold enough". I told him that you do realize that it is 36F with a wind chill of 20-something out. Trucks are not affected by windchill. Okay, buddy that big giant heat sink of an aluminum fuel tank sitting on the side of the truck is not being cooled below freezing while that wind is whipping around it. Has anyone ever heard of an air-cooled engine? Aluminum is a great conductor of cold. Take a warm beer place it on ice and spin it around a couple of times, you will have a cold beer pretty quick. This is why I was outside working in the big freeze, he thought it was punishment when to me it was a reward to be away from the idiot.
Josh, as this is a "Topic Video" I wanted to chime in with my years and years of accumulated knowledge on them there ornery Diesels. I've had some experience with both glow plug and non glow plug diesels. 1). Early on I used to change the starting fluid cans on the Cummins 250's as a pm person at a huge truck leasing company out of Birmingham Alabama.(I worked in Detroit, Michigan) We also had "pellets" for the 2 cycle GM's. 2). I have a Ford Super Dexta 3 cylinder Perkins Diesel tractor that has a glow plug in the intake manifold. My local Ford Tractor Authorized repair guy says it actually makes a Diesel Fire inside the intake manifold. I thought it only vaporized the diesel fuel, but I've seen enough farmers light a wad of cotton dipped in Diesel on a coat hanger and hold it over the intake to start cold Diesels, that I'm inclined to believe him. 3). Later I had an opportunity to purchase a GM 350 Diesel car that was only two years old real cheaply but wouldn't start. Having farmer cousins with lots of experience with all things Diesel, they told me to get the biggest batteries I could find under the hood, & it'll always start. I bought two 1175 CCA batts called "ICE BREAKERS" from a drugstore turned auto parts store. They were bigger than anything on the market. Then I learned about glow plugs, and mine weren't working. The first thing I did was put a manual override "doorbell button" on the solenoid. Then I had to learn the GM glow plug system used 6volt glow plugs for quick heat up times. That means you don't just turn them on, you pulse them just enough to get the engine going. After a while I owned 4 GM Diesel powered cars at the same time with similar problems, because I could buy them relatively new for small money. I found out GM recommended a minimum 600rpm cranking speed to create heat for initial combustion. And even though you could blow a head gasket immediately using starting fluid, I found that you could use it if you only gave it just the tiniest tiny tiny shot. Then I learned when wife ran out of fuel to put a hose from the BBQ grill propane tank in the air inlet w/ just the tiniest tiny tiny shot of starting fluid and I could start up a dry fuel system and run it on propane coming directly off the propane tank with no regulator until the engine was running on it's own fuel. BTW, when I have a fuel pump issue on PETROL/ GASOLINE cars, the propane/ starting fluid deal works well enough to drive it away on the propane. You wouldn't want to do it in traffic, but out here in bug tussle, I drove my 1998 Yukon 5.7L gasoline Vortec 10 miles to a nice warm shop when it was 20°F outside, to replace the fuel pump using only my 20# BBQ grill tank. Sometimes I get them running on propane and hammer on the gas tank and if the pump comes back to life, the engine will chug like the choke's on, thus getting one more shot at driving it a bit further. I have run enough Diesels in cold climate to know all about running Kerosene below 10°F to avoid waxing or gelling. Some places told me I'm gonna blow my car up, but for the last 36yrs of my working life I worked with the engineers who developed the GM 350 Diesel and I got the skinny on it. The stations who didn't want me to put Kerosene in my car fuel tank weren't paying road tax on it as it wasn't a road fuel. What they weren't telling me was the truth: Kerosene is just Diesel cracked further or refined a little more until the wax is removed, as in Jet Fuel. The Truth Will Set You Free, if you take the time to learn it. Thanks for the channel Josh, it's always very interesting to see a professional walk right thru issues of such technical detail as you do. I'm old now, so I don't do much, but you take me places where I used to go daily. Thank You for going thru all the effort to video edit and post. ben/ michigan PS, have you ever used a snow blower? If you do you'll never look back.
No sound on earth can replace that engine firing up! Gave me goosebumps! I'm glad you keep her up and running. It's all about vapor pressure and flashpoint. As a hazardous materials specialist, I already knew. Your explanation is on point and very easy for anyone to understand. Great job!
I enjoy your videos. They help me understand a diesel engine better. I drive a bus for our church. We had an International with the DT466. That engine didn't like the cold at all. If it was much under 50f and you didn't plug it in, good luck getting it started. I replaced the glow plug solenoid because it wasn't working. That helped, but not enough. We sold it and it ended up in Florida. It should start fine there. We where blessed with two 2009 IC buses with the Maxxforce DT (I know not many would call that engine a blessing). I have them on a timer to run the block heater and a battery maintainer for 6 hours Sunday morning. Even though they will start in the cold, I figure its got to be better on them to use the block heater. Thanks for the videos.
i have an old ford school bus with air start. Its got the new holland 7.8 turbo diesel. Ive never seen another school bus with air start. But its service life was up near seattle wa. My only thought was it was for cold weather start ups. It does spin over fast! I actually really like it. I can run the bus with a little pickup battery because there are no large 12v loads. Just gotta make sure you have good pressure in the tank.
Josh, Keep up the great videos! 2016 unknown to me a lighting strike came close to my truck when at home. Took out all 6 injectors. Tow truck driver smelled the starting fluid and flipped out . Told him either leave or tow ,but no bit****g. He towed. Arrived at dealer and Service writer asked. I asked how would you check failed start if you was a simple O-O/ He answered same. I mean 2 shots and it wont? To the shop it goes! $6800 tow, injectors, R&R. All 6 failed electronics.
The formulation of mixing of chemicals are different for gasoline and diesel in the winter. There are highly aromatic or another way of saying it is quickly vaporizing additives in gasoline to help start in colder months. One proof of this is when you have old gas in your generator or snowblower and it is cold it will be hard to start if using old gas. Pour fresh gas in and it will usually start right up as long as everything else is maintained properly. Diesel doesn't have this advantage and relies on compression and heat to start the oil burning. When cold, the clearances change and get worse which again exasperates the problem. And my 3406 never had a problem starting even down to -20, but below that I never shut it off when on the road.
I run Rotella oil in my diesels (5.9 Cummins and 3 cylinder Kubota) and I have found that switching from the T-4 (summer use) to T-5 or T -6 (semi/ full synth) for winter use makes them MUCH easier to start when it's cold. Keeping them "plugged in" (coolant heater in 5.9, magnetic/ block heater on Kubota) makes a HUGE difference, as did moving to a lower elevation (not a practical answer, but I noticed a big difference) Finally I run an additive in cold weather (Power Service white bottle).
Alaska- run an extension cord to vehicles with 12 Guage wire to a 4 way outlet. 1 outlet has like a 2 amp trickle charger for batteries, 1 to oil pan heater pad, 1 to transmission fluid heater pad, and 1 to engine block heater. -70 Fahrenheit no problem. Set on a timer to start warming up 2 to 4 hours prior to wanting to start engine. Leave for work at 6am, set timer for 4am. Also saves a ton of money on electric bill! Lol
I used to always plug my truck in , now i no longer do this ,,I bought an APU very first thing when i bought my 1977 peterbilt 359 ,,this particular truck has a 12V71 2 stroke detroit and it won't start unless plugged in ,, i program the APU computer with the time i want to start my engine and 30 minutes before i get ready the APU starts up , it runs an oil pan heater and also the cabin heat ,,and because the APU shares coolant with the truck engine , no block heater necessary ,plus the APU warms the truck batteries and charges them too ,,so even when it's negative 40 outside i jump in the truck and crank the engine and it's just like it's 90 deg outside ,, all 3 of my trucks have an APU now and i won't ever own another truck without one ,most APU units will also automatically start regularly to keep the trucks batteries charged
Space heaters. I'm lucky now all the equipment is in the shop, but back in the day you would fire up a 150,000 btu space heater, put an old parachute or tarp around the machine before you would even attempt to start an engine.
I used to know a guy who drove a tracktor in stead of a car (he was an artist...) He had painted it white. Anyway, he made a small bonfire under the engine in the winter before starting it. That worked.
An important thing to understand about diesel vs gasoline is the flash point. What is actually being burned is vapor from each. Diesel must be approx 125d F to flash off as gasoline is only around 55dF.
I feel silly. I just experienced this last week. I have a 6.5 Detroit Diesel and drove about 300 miles to find a hood and bumper (for a different vehicle). After 30 minutes in sub-freezing weather, I was ready to hit the road, and I turned the engine but no start. I asked the junk yard for permission to park my truck there for a few days. My plan was to get to a bus station, get home, get another truck + trailer, and tow the 6.5 back home. Guy instead offered to give me a jump. I'm like, "Battery's fine, something wrong with the engine, or fuel, or something". So guy hopes in my truck, glows it, and fired it up without a jump. Despite 300 miles on the freeway, 30 minutes in below freezing weather was enough to cool the engine enough that it needed to be glowed. I felt silly.
Here in northern Europe, we use auxiliary heaters that run on diesel and heat the coolant, used for both heating the engine and cab, set it on a timer and it's nice and warm in the morning. Blockheaters are very common on smaller vehicles like cars and pickup trucks, plug the vehicle into an outlet and a coil in a water passage heats the coolant.
I have a remote start, she goes out and starts the truck right after she makes me breakfast, also plows the snow off the driveway. took 32 years to train her but is working good now.
Thanks for this very clear video. Many videos show big diesel cold starts (locomotive or generators), with much smoke, explosion sound and sometimes flames pouring from exaust. It looks like cylinders start one by one in fact.
Not much to add, other than the reason the oil viscosity in the cold is important, is that a diesel relies on the engine turning over fast enough to generate enough heat for ignition to happen. If it turns over too slow it doesnt make the heat quick enough, and it doesnt kick off. Running a trickle charger on the batteries over night when its cold also helps.
My current diesel merc that i had since new is 7 years old and has started 100% of the time for those 7 years. even through snow storms, -10, always starts first time. Probably about 3000 starts. Seems modern diesels are very good in cold weather!
A Canuk here from the Moyie River Valley... a bunch of miles north of your Idaho location. Usually in February we hit our low of lows...minus 20 to minus 30 F. My '03 Ram 3500 5.9 Cummins is a champ and with about 1 to 2 hours of block heater on..will fire with ease. Also, I swap out 15 weight Rotella oil from summer use to 5 weight Rotella for winter.. Just as a note of comparison..prior to using the block heater for a couple of years the Cummins fired up as normal, the block heater simply made the warm up for my ass in the seat a bit more comfortable.
GM dealer tech here light duty mostly 4cyl turbo and 5.3… love the content and I learn a lot especially on the diag and tear down videos. Would definitely watch the long formats as well. Thank you
Man. You rock. Rarely do I watch all the way through. I got a diesel Jeep Gran Cherokee and it’s been cold as hell. Had to get it jumped some mornings. Makes sense about the battery and how you described the intake. Thank you man!
Cat Cold Weather packages still generally come with an Ether solenoid setup- the ECM controls a dose sprayed into the inlet. So it gets to determine when and how much, so it can minimize potential for damage.
Older farmers would light fires under the oil pans to get machinery to start. It's a miracle more of them didn't burn down considering most of them were slobbery oily messes
It's been a long time since I've been around large trucks I've ran diesel pickups for years I have a old 2000 Ford F350 4wd powerstroke diesel it starts in the winter but not real easy northern Michigan gets cold in the winter my 2016 Ford F250 powerstroke diesel it starts great no matter the temperature I've never plugged it in
Appreciate your channel. 84 Mercedes TD inline 5 owners manual says crank till the oil pressure rises. This because the crank rpms are faster than idle. Many don't understand the starter is made for this. Man its a massive starter. :)
good explanation. winter diesel helps prevent gelling. the biodiesel will increase chance of gelling since its very hygroscopic. a followup on additives may be helpful as well. or use of pan heaters, block heaters, or battery heaters can also help
You forgot to mention those crappy indirect injection diesels that inject into a combustion chamber before the explosion enters the cylinder, they require glow plug starts even in summer.
Not true, John. A neighbor has a diesel tractor with indirect injection and he has absolutely no trouble starting it for most of the year. I have a 6.9L International IDI engine in a pickup truck and same thing: no problem starting until the winter weather arrives.
We will use a hair dryer to blow hot air into the intake if we have a problem starting. I have started a 1968 #60 Hough with a v6 cummins ( 352 I think, the hardest damn engine to start I have ever seen, can be 95 out and needs a little shot of starting fluid)when it is -30 and sitting in an unheated shed. Had a 1000watt tank heater on 24-7 to keep the engine from getting totally cold. A 200 amp battery charger is hooked up , a warm can of starting fluid(a couple of short shots) and the hair dryer blowing hot air into the intake.
My Perkins diesel has a diesel fueled flame heater in the intake. Fortunately it is disabled in marine applications. I keep it in south Florida for easy starting 👍
I run in British Columbia and Alberta Canada, and see plenty of cold temps. At a certain point, its just easier to leave em running. Note with DPFs etc, bump up idle rpm to 1100ish to ease sooting. For gelling, knowing what your diesel is rated to is key. They'll blend in kerosene or such. Know your LTO number (low temperature operability). The after msrket anti gel works well, know your dosing--biodiesel blends need 200% dosing! Cold start PRO trick, have some spare diesel, warm it however you want (hot water immersion works well, with an old howes jug), add some nice warm diesel into your fuel filter/water seperator RIGHT before starting. 100% helps, I've cold started a cold-soaked -32c engine with no heaters this way, 2nd try. She was unhappy and oil pressure took a lot of buzzing and STOP ENGINE to quiet down....
I know on my older VW diesel they had choke looking thing for cold and winter starts. I think it was for opening the air intake the whole way open after the glow plugs were done because back then, the glow plugs were not that great.
Makes sense why some of the old-timers up here in the Northern Rockies talk about draining their oil every night and adding it back into the system in the morning. 😑
Yah: if it's the difference between getting a motor started or not, draining the oil is not terrifically inconvenient in this instance. I'm not sure I'd like to do this on my semi truck I have which has 12 gallons of oil; but on a car where there's only five quarts.....
I use a Maxwell Ultracapacitor bank in my 73 6-71 powered IH semi. It replaces 2 lead acid batteries and is not effected by temperature. 7000 CCA baby!!!!
I own a GMC with a LML Duramax, I live in Canada so it tends to get cold. I baby my truck, so it lives in the garage. When I’m going to use it I plug it in, this activates the block heater, oil pan heater and transmission pan heater, did I say I baby it? This eliminates the glow plug cycle and also the intake heater once running, this saves the batteries and fuel. I use Rotella T6 0W-40 in the engine. I drive a school bus with the MaxForce diesel, I’ve never had a problem starting in the cold, some drivers do because they don’t understand diesel engines.
Our diesel pusher RV w/ a glow plug equipped Cummins L9 has an Aqua-hot diesel fired boiler onboard which provides unlimited hot water to the coach along with hydronic heat that can also pre-heat the engine coolant using a segregated circulation pump. Also from the factory, has an electric block heater. Can use both at once. We head to warmer climes during winter so not used very much but good to know it is there and why.
Gelling occurs when paraffin wax within diesel fuel solidifies and bonds together at extremely low temperatures. There are products to add to the fuel tank to help from this happening. Summer time Diesel #2 is sold, and winter in extream cold areas, Diesel #1 is sold. generally cut with kerosene.. Do not use Ether and Glow Plugs together. Disable the GP`s first. Engines that require a Valve Adjustment, do it before winter starts. Make sure you have 2 good batteries, with clean connections, good cables with no corrosion. Clean connections at Starter relay, and on the Starter. An old tired starter usually won`t turn the engine over fast enough, and cuts your chances of starting. A tired high mileage engine will have lower compression, and will be more difficult to start. I have had Diesels since oct 81, when I bought an 82 Datsun KC with the Nissan SD-22 Diesel engine. still have it, put over 480K miles on it. 97 bought my first Mercedes Diesel 85 300D Turbo, still have it 80 240D, 82 240D, 84 300SD and 4 others in the yard. 86 and a 85 Ford f250 6.9 Diesel 4- spds. 84 JD 950 3 cyl Yanmar 2012 Kioti CK30 On the 86 F250, when the GP`s were not working and forgot to plug in the Block Heater. A HF Heat gun shoved down the intake a minute or so, she will light right off. Be sure to remove the Filter element, or you will have extra heat when it catches fire.... Usually the older engines used in cars and light trucks are IDI engines, Indirect Diesel Injection. They have a swirl Chamber the fuel is injected into to, and where the tip of the GP is. Larger trucks are Direct Injection. where the fuel is injected right onto the Piston. The Dodge Cummins is one, from 89 - to around 99 then went to the electronic garbage as all new Diesels are, computer controlled. The International DT 466 I saw mentioned in the comments, does not have Glow Plugs, We got 2 new trucks back in 80 we drove for 15 years or so both auto trans, then we got a 95 466 5-spd 2 spd Diff I drove for 10 years before I retired. NO GP`s. The other crew got a 96, and first year with the Computer, never liked driving it. Josh like your topic, will help a lot of people to sort of understand these Engines.
I got a job at the local John Deere dealership last year and was surprised to find that they still use ether on new equipment. Coming from a New Holland dealer I found that weird. Lots of the 10+L engines in CNH equipment uses 24V for starting and they all use a pre-heater or glow plugs.
Some cold start strategies. Cold start on 1970's + / - diesel International tractors / backhoes. US market used ether , Euro market used a diesel fueled electrically ignited intake heater ( flame plug ) If you really want to get obscure, there is a 1940's International engine that had a second intake valve that opened into a chamber fed by a gasoline carb. Yep, the engine started on gasoline then switched over to diesel. I've seen an engine that had a way to add gasoline to the engine oil as a way to thin it out. This was an oil fill just below the gasoline fuel valve. Small single cylinder Yanmar engines have a port on the intake where you add engine oil in order to raise compression ratio for better cold start. Hatz engines have a plug that leads to the cylinder where you put a flammable rod into the plug, light it , insert plug into cylinder then start the engine.
Ive got a skidsteer with a 4.5L 4cyl NA john deer diesel that doesnt not have any cold start aids. If its below freezing, it needs to be plugged in to start. If its plugged in and below like 10⁰F you are gonna need ether, or brake clean, or whatever your choice of starting fluid is.
Very uncommon now but the old compression release was great. Takes 2 guys to start it. 1 to work the lever and another to work the key. There were some bypasses that could be done to start it if you're alone
The Army's F5070 AKA International Pavestar 20-ton dump trucks had a compression release lever and in 1999 to 2002 Kingston NY, Reserse unit that still had these Vietnam area vehicles, it would take three of us to start one in the winter. One lying across the front left tire pulling the lever, one to spray either, and the other to turn the key. Heaven help us if it needed to be jumped without another one running because they never upgraded them to 24V systems and they were the only 12V systems we had besides our POVs
Thats why these newer model trucks have there apus hardline to the trucks. Theres plus and negatives about that. Keeps coolant flowing to temp and real big negative is when u spring a coolant leak your screwed. I had 1.2 million miles on my 579 last winter got down to -20 didnt start it for 2 weeks cranked right up. Keep the injectors maintained change fuel filters regularly during winter. And youll have no problems.
Definitely a good topic for this time of year. Thermostart is actually pretty common in agriculture and Perkins. Glowplugs were used primarily in pre combustion engines. Engineers used to believe that the heavy iron parts of the engines would soak up the heat of the compression cycle. Timing advancement and higher injection pressure really seems to help. Thinner oil certainly increases starting RPM. Maybe diesel fuel won't burn in a puddle on the ground but dip a rag in it and light away.
The compression along with the real culprit, rind cylinder stiffness with cold oil on the cylinder walls. we have quite a number of diesels of all the major makes. Some heat the water in the head. They work eventually but not as easy as those with the block heater placed near the bottom of the cylinder liners. This leaves us to believe the cold oil on the cylinder walls is a big source of the drag on the starter. We have a 1993 Mack truck an E7 that will start below zero cold without block heat. The newer electronic E7 is good, but not like the 93 model. We attribute this to the extra amps being diverted to the computer. The Cat engines we have are good too, but the C9 HUI engine can be a pain. The record for that old Mack is -12 deg. in a cold building.
Years ago I work at a place that had a 1981 kubota and it had to have the the glow plugs if it was below 75 degrees … in South Carolina , my 7.3 is a struggle to start in the cold but the skid loader will start without glow plugs below freezing
I have a 6kW Kubota generator that requires a few seconds of glowplug even on a warm day. That's because it has been through a few owners, has over 11,000 hours on it and the compression isn't what it used to be. This is something I can live with, though, as the unit is so dependable.
It's actually quite simple. It really boils down to the vapor pressure and the flash point of aliphatic % hydrocarbons. The vapor pressure is easily explained via a logarithmic graph which explains the depressed pressure at lower temperatures. The flash point of these same hydrocarbons is around 125° F which is easily obtained within the cylinder, as per the ideal gas law. However, depressed vapor pressure and temperature make the spontaneous ignition of diesel prolonged.
Diesel while being flammable is also a very stable substance, diesel fuel needs 2 things to properly burn; compression (AND LOTS OF IT), and heat... so basically in cold weather performing a cold start you are relying on the heat made by the compression friction to start the motor.
I know that newer auto diesel engines will run a thinner oil all year around or they have it specified for the winter. Ford recommends 10w30 for summer but only if fuel is not B5 or B20, other wise its 5w40-T6. Cummins 6.7L is 10w30 summer and 5w40 T6 winter, however, 5w40 T6 is a lot cheaper so most run this year around.
Just to add a couple of diesel engine cold starting aids -- The Cummins engines of six decades past could be spec'd with a compression release lever, which when engaged, would allow the engine to initially turn over much faster, thus heating the combustion chamber quicker. Release the lever and all other conditions being favorable, the engine would start. Also, #1 diesel fuel, as opposed to #2 diesel, could be purchased in the colder climates to aid the starting process.
When you made the comment about diesel engines really drawing the amperage to crank over, that reminded me of an item I have noticed in a few random videos from the states of highway tractors that were using three batteries in a battery box that is designed for four batteries. Is this a theme you have noticed on trucks in the shops you've worked at or perhaps its prior owners having cut corners all they can and eliminated one battery. I've never seen such a thing on any trucks I have looked at or owned up here in Alberta. Battery capacity as in number of batteries ( and health along with sound connections ) is everything in cold weather as one needs all the help one can get to ensure a reliable starting diesel ( along with the block heater, the correct oil viscosity and so on )
My neighbor (80) has a 1965 580 Case backhoe. no glow plugs. I have seen it start immediately from 80 f down to 0 F. I am baffled. It only idles while working, so much power, I've never heard it misfire or run erratically. It is crazy. Sips diesel fuel but boy it is heavy and only two wheel drive.
I plug my Dodge Cummins in when it hits 32°F or colder for ease of starting. The reason batteries seem weaker in cold climates is cause the cell activity in the battery is slower. Batteries discharge at a faster rate in hot climates as the cell activity is much more active.
Air temperature effects the air density,cold is more dense this means more air in the same volume making the air fuel mixture’s different, more air to compress the more resistance, all the other mentioned items are true also , pre heaters on air intake depends on the type you may not want to use ether . Ether is highly ignitable ( low heat ) that probably why it works well in the cold . Keep it on the toasty side.
I have a Manitou with a Perkins 1103A-33 Engine, it doesn't like to start, even with 40 seconds on the glow plugs ( I fitted new glow plugs and they do work) it is easier to start in summer.
Very informative thank. Always enjoy your CAT vids especially, as I run a 6NZ ... funnily enough in New Zealand. Not sure if you've covered this- direct and indirect injection/pre combustion advantages/disadvantages. 😊
Before watching the video, I'm going to problems building enough heat to ignite the fuel. At fifty below, on Cat 651b it took about 5 minutes of glow plugs to ether to ignite and usually a whole can of ether to get the engine running. Pony motor start on on a D9g was a completely different story
The glow plugs aren't really on the cylinder, they are in the precombustion chambers. My favorites were the IH tractors that started on gas, and then changed over to diesel. Also a higher cetane value will make them start easier. (Cetane is sort of the apposite of octane in function)
That tractor reminds me of my gfs massey in any temp, that thing wont catch up for nothing without at least 30 or 40sec of plugs. My 3400 kubota will usually fire on the first or second crank without even touching the plugs
@@AdeptApe I have had a kubota B7200 since new ( 1985 model ) and it always has been completely useless to start even at 70f without the use of the glow plugs. Even plugging in the block heater its still not hot enough to start without the use of the glow plugs. The only time it will start without glow plugs is if it was just shut down from operating temperature and restarted within minutes. While it seems rather ridiculous, that is the way it is with my model and perhaps yours falls into that similar category ( I assume they are indirect injection ? ). I used to use it during the winter to run a grain auger, as long as it was plugged in, I also use 0W40 synthetic, and use the glow plugs for what is probably 30 seconds, it started fine. I would not worry at all about yours, if she runs fine when warmed up its all good ( hopefully you do have a block heater on yours as well )
That's good to know, I figured I just was a bad Diesel owner lol. It will not start without those glow plugs. It's a noisy, clackily little guy, but I love my tractor. Actually got it stuck today, had a 2 foot mound of snow in front of me and my 5ft scraper blade piled with snow. Got stuck between both piles and even in lowest gear with it in 4x4 and diff lock it would just spin on the slushy wet snow. We had about 8" of snow and it was raining, super fun. Got it unstuck though and it's safe and sound in the garage now. Thank you for the info.
@AdeptApe no worries, I'm actually super impressed how much yall push with those turf tires given that all we're dealing with is mud and I'm about to fire my industrial tires
The word you were looking for in the comparison between gasoline and diesel is called volatility. Since gas engines use and external ignition system, and since is is so volatile, an open flame or spark will ignite it. Diesel runs on compression ignition. As you compress anything, you raise the temperature. Diesel needs between 62-98 degrees C. Now think about sub 0c/32f temps. Back when I was in Northern BC, we were used to -40 temps. (c and f meet at -40.) We would run tiger torches under the oil pans to warm the oil. We would also use propane injection to get the engines running, till they had enough heat to burn the diesel proper. Most winters, we would run them 24/7. Another good point you made is how batteries have much less power the colder they are. Another reason I think EV cars are stupid! The faster you can spin the engine, the greater chance is has to start. Have a great day! o7 PS - I am a Mechanic of 35+ years. I am self employed, and run my own shops. I fix everything and anything, as well as doing classic car restorations. I am on a 95 acre farm, and fix everything here, including tractors, some of which are from the 50's, and a couple of modern ones. I grew up on farms, and learned at a very young age, in very harsh conditions. It was all about survival back then, and it has served me well to this day. Just know, that anyone here can do it too! Take your time, be patient, even if you have to walk away every once in a while. Everyone should be able to do at least the very basics. That knowledge can save you.
Volatility is not necessarily a measure of how easily something will burn. Some chemicals such as 2,4D ester are extremely volatile but are not flammable at all. Ask any cotton grower who has had his cotton poisoned by a volatile broad leaf chemical that was applied miles away. I don’t know if he had trouble starting his tractor though. Jeff
I've worked outside my whole life and the guys that are in a hurry have the most trouble. Two sets of cables, a 270+ amp alternator, and some time will even make a old two stroke start.
What's up do you have to cut counter bores to do a rebuild or a overhaul a mechanic told me if you don't cut counter bores you can do a complete overhaul or rebuild I'm talking Cummins, Detroit, caterpillar thanks I'm company driver still learning thanks
Great video! I have also found that by the time I get my hands on an old diesel, they’ve been run hard and put up wet, with lower compression than when they were new. The best bet is to have hot batteries and a good leak free fuel system.
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Living in northern Maine and running a range of diesel equipment, this is a subject near and dear. Never really thought about the higher density of cold air affecting its compressibility, but that makes perfect sense. I got away from ether for a while due to concerns about cylinder wall wash down, but have begun using again - sparingly - now that some claim “lubricity”. Hope springs eternal, my fellow simian.
Does a c13 KCB have glow plugs?
Hi could you please do a video about de acert engine? It's very common as I'm sure you know in the trucking world with the C15s. I know the CAT answer is not to do it. You don't have to endorse it but could you give a review on what you know and what you've seen in your experience? For example rebuilding an MXS acert to a single turbo 6nz type of setup
I work on big 645 and 710 locomotive engines, and these have NO glow plugs. Locomotives typically stay running all winter long and never shut down. Locomtives don't run antifreeze. Some of them have air starters and some have electric starters. GE's have an inverter starting system, which means no physical starter. EMD's have either air, electric, or both. The only good way to start them when cold is with hot water. The engines have to be prefilled with hot water, then started. On rare occasions, we take rags soaked in diesel fuel, put them in the air boxes, and light the rags on fire to get enough heat into the cylinder to light them off. I've had calls from the fire department asking if we had a fire emergency when cold starting a locomotive. 😂 Such good times!
My great grandfather used to tell us about back in the 30s living on the farm and dealing with motors in the winter. He said they used to have to drain the oil on the car when they got home from anywhere and keep it in the house next to the wood stove to keep it warm. And then quick fill it up right before they’d start it or it would never start in the cold on its own. I can’t imagine!
My grandma's dad did the same thing with his old Internationals and Model Ts--if it's cold enough (didn't happen all the time where he was, but it did happen) you just dump the oil into a galvanized tub (not the good one!) and then transfer it into an old milk can (also not a good one!) Sit that puppy next to the nice, hot stove and you'll have no troubles. The 30s were rough, for sure.
That was interesting to read, reminded me of a memory. During winter, my dad used to drain the water from his tractor, and filled it up with warm water before use. Needless to say, that engine was toast anyway, mismatched piston, rings installed in wrong order, cracked head... We ran it until the liner O-rings started leaking. It's been rebuilt since, and starts easy enough, despite being a pre-chamber engine.
Doing that in 30s was a brilliant thing. People I know in himalayas recommend it till date not known what 0W grade oil can do
I found a way to make my diesel easy to start in the winter, I take my RV down south and don't go back north until summer. I realize many folks, as in not retired like me, don't have that option so this was good stuff to know. Keep the good stuff coming buddy.
Can I find this at my local parts store? Haha
Most of us born in the last forty or so years will never know retirement.
@@ProleDaddy
I became familiar with the manifold flame system used on the M48 and M60 Army tanks that used the Continental 1790 engine. There was a flame generation device located in a steel section of the intake manifold where a hand pump operated by the driver along with energizing the starter solenoid would allow a spark igniter to build a flame in the intake. The electrical interlock with the starter solenoid was needed to prevent igniting the fuel if air was not moving in the intake. I have seen this system used on some European diesels also.
Going back in time to when we used pony motors to start the main diesel, one of the strategies to a good start, was not to be in a hurry. Squatch 253 is a proponent of the "get the cylinders good and hot before sending in the fuel" way of doing things. That thing, is to let the pony motor spin over the big engine on compression for a while, letting some heat accumulate in the cylinders, before introducing what will be relatively "cold" fuel. This applies in all seasons, but is crucial in the cold.
Spraying the "cold" fuel, even in the summertime, into a cylinder where the rings might be tired, the valves may not be sealing well, whatever the reason, when you spray the fuel in, if things aren't hot enough in there already, the "cold" fuel is going to cool things right down and make compression ignition a whole lot harder.
Yes, in warm weather, if after the engine has been running already, you have a better chance of getting the big engine to fire on the first strokes, and it can be a success with injectors sending fuel instantly, but the warm-up-the-cylinders-first idea is a tested, proven method.
Fast-forward to today with modern, computer-controlled fuel injection diesel engines, and you will find that the ECM's are programmed to let the engine spin over a few complete revolutions before telling the injection system to begin firing. That gives the cylinders the best chance to build a little heat before the "cold" fuel start spraying in.
It might seem counter-intuitive to the beginner to be wasting battery cranking power allowing the engine to roll over several revs before firing, but that is the reasoning behind it.
Funny over the pond we call them Donkey Engines.
Common rail engines also need a crank revolution because the ECU doesn't know the crank position, unlike in a fully mechanical engine
Ive been working on diesel engines for about 4 years now , I’m only 19 , I like to think I’m knowledgeable on the subject but you have been an invaluable resource in my journey to learning how these machines work , and it seems like I still learn something new every time you post one of these videos
I just rebuilt that exact model Kubota (L245D). That’s what I do full time (Kubota Technical), also I’m a full time Pastor. Have a blessed day.
You do the lords work 24/7!
I work on Carrier reefer units. If I may ask, I’d like to know how you connect to the ECU on these. The connector has a ton of pins but most of them are not used in the harness. Is it over the CAN wires? Special adapters? What software do I need? Thanks and God bless 🙏🏻
@@markm0000 it’s all proprietary software, connectors, and computer programs. Yes it’s probably the two wire square connector that uses CAN. I do not work on those industrial units but they’re very similar to tractors. Blessings to you!
Hi sir
Working in Upstate New York I have had a little experience with these problems both in the Army, Fort Drum, and working for SWIFT, Syracuse, as a mechanic. In the Army, I have had several different cold weather start systems Glow Plugs, and Either Start systems, and the best I experienced was in the old Deuce and a half trucks. They installed a spark plug into the intake and the firing of the spark plug would preheat the air. I never had one not start on the first try. When I worked for SWIFT Corporate would not let us cut the fuel in the wintertime. Jonestown PA could but according to them, it was not cold enough in Syracuse NY to require that. I would spend 12 hours a day outside rescuing gelled-up trucks in the yard. Pull the fuel filters and see the jello diesel sludge, replace fuel filters, and add Rescue 911 to the fuel, and the filter wait for a half hour, then start the truck and get the driver on their way. We were having issues above freezing one day and my manager questioned my intelligence because "there is no way these trucks are gelled up it 's not cold enough". I told him that you do realize that it is 36F with a wind chill of 20-something out. Trucks are not affected by windchill. Okay, buddy that big giant heat sink of an aluminum fuel tank sitting on the side of the truck is not being cooled below freezing while that wind is whipping around it. Has anyone ever heard of an air-cooled engine? Aluminum is a great conductor of cold. Take a warm beer place it on ice and spin it around a couple of times, you will have a cold beer pretty quick. This is why I was outside working in the big freeze, he thought it was punishment when to me it was a reward to be away from the idiot.
Winter starting a Cummins 335 smallcam with a decompression lever was a dream starting in the winter.
Josh, as this is a "Topic Video" I wanted to chime in with my years and years of accumulated knowledge on them there ornery Diesels. I've had some experience with both glow plug and non glow plug diesels. 1). Early on I used to change the starting fluid cans on the Cummins 250's as a pm person at a huge truck leasing company out of Birmingham Alabama.(I worked in Detroit, Michigan) We also had "pellets" for the 2 cycle GM's. 2). I have a Ford Super Dexta 3 cylinder Perkins Diesel tractor that has a glow plug in the intake manifold. My local Ford Tractor Authorized repair guy says it actually makes a Diesel Fire inside the intake manifold. I thought it only vaporized the diesel fuel, but I've seen enough farmers light a wad of cotton dipped in Diesel on a coat hanger and hold it over the intake to start cold Diesels, that I'm inclined to believe him. 3). Later I had an opportunity to purchase a GM 350 Diesel car that was only two years old real cheaply but wouldn't start. Having farmer cousins with lots of experience with all things Diesel, they told me to get the biggest batteries I could find under the hood, & it'll always start. I bought two 1175 CCA batts called "ICE BREAKERS" from a drugstore turned auto parts store. They were bigger than anything on the market. Then I learned about glow plugs, and mine weren't working. The first thing I did was put a manual override "doorbell button" on the solenoid. Then I had to learn the GM glow plug system used 6volt glow plugs for quick heat up times. That means you don't just turn them on, you pulse them just enough to get the engine going. After a while I owned 4 GM Diesel powered cars at the same time with similar problems, because I could buy them relatively new for small money. I found out GM recommended a minimum 600rpm cranking speed to create heat for initial combustion. And even though you could blow a head gasket immediately using starting fluid, I found that you could use it if you only gave it just the tiniest tiny tiny shot. Then I learned when wife ran out of fuel to put a hose from the BBQ grill propane tank in the air inlet w/ just the tiniest tiny tiny shot of starting fluid and I could start up a dry fuel system and run it on propane coming directly off the propane tank with no regulator until the engine was running on it's own fuel. BTW, when I have a fuel pump issue on PETROL/ GASOLINE cars, the propane/ starting fluid deal works well enough to drive it away on the propane. You wouldn't want to do it in traffic, but out here in bug tussle, I drove my 1998 Yukon 5.7L gasoline Vortec 10 miles to a nice warm shop when it was 20°F outside, to replace the fuel pump using only my 20# BBQ grill tank. Sometimes I get them running on propane and hammer on the gas tank and if the pump comes back to life, the engine will chug like the choke's on, thus getting one more shot at driving it a bit further. I have run enough Diesels in cold climate to know all about running Kerosene below 10°F to avoid waxing or gelling. Some places told me I'm gonna blow my car up, but for the last 36yrs of my working life I worked with the engineers who developed the GM 350 Diesel and I got the skinny on it. The stations who didn't want me to put Kerosene in my car fuel tank weren't paying road tax on it as it wasn't a road fuel. What they weren't telling me was the truth: Kerosene is just Diesel cracked further or refined a little more until the wax is removed, as in Jet Fuel. The Truth Will Set You Free, if you take the time to learn it. Thanks for the channel Josh, it's always very interesting to see a professional walk right thru issues of such technical detail as you do. I'm old now, so I don't do much, but you take me places where I used to go daily. Thank You for going thru all the effort to video edit and post. ben/ michigan PS, have you ever used a snow blower? If you do you'll never look back.
Snowblower is what happens on a ski resort if a guy is lucky enough
Happy day's.
No sound on earth can replace that engine firing up! Gave me goosebumps! I'm glad you keep her up and running. It's all about vapor pressure and flashpoint. As a hazardous materials specialist, I already knew. Your explanation is on point and very easy for anyone to understand. Great job!
I enjoy your videos. They help me understand a diesel engine better. I drive a bus for our church. We had an International with the DT466. That engine didn't like the cold at all. If it was much under 50f and you didn't plug it in, good luck getting it started. I replaced the glow plug solenoid because it wasn't working. That helped, but not enough. We sold it and it ended up in Florida. It should start fine there. We where blessed with two 2009 IC buses with the Maxxforce DT (I know not many would call that engine a blessing). I have them on a timer to run the block heater and a battery maintainer for 6 hours Sunday morning. Even though they will start in the cold, I figure its got to be better on them to use the block heater. Thanks for the videos.
What timer are you using that can deal with all the amps that a block heater draws?
@@michaeldunagan8268 I used a contactor as well. The timer just controls the contactor.
@3:26.....Diesel sparkplug for ARD aftertreatment
i have an old ford school bus with air start. Its got the new holland 7.8 turbo diesel. Ive never seen another school bus with air start. But its service life was up near seattle wa. My only thought was it was for cold weather start ups. It does spin over fast! I actually really like it. I can run the bus with a little pickup battery because there are no large 12v loads. Just gotta make sure you have good pressure in the tank.
Josh, Keep up the great videos! 2016 unknown to me a lighting strike came close to my truck when at home. Took out all 6 injectors. Tow truck driver smelled the starting fluid and flipped out . Told him either leave or tow ,but no bit****g. He towed. Arrived at dealer and Service writer asked. I asked how would you check failed start if you was a simple O-O/ He answered same. I mean 2 shots and it wont? To the shop it goes! $6800 tow, injectors, R&R. All 6 failed electronics.
The formulation of mixing of chemicals are different for gasoline and diesel in the winter. There are highly aromatic or another way of saying it is quickly vaporizing additives in gasoline to help start in colder months. One proof of this is when you have old gas in your generator or snowblower and it is cold it will be hard to start if using old gas. Pour fresh gas in and it will usually start right up as long as everything else is maintained properly. Diesel doesn't have this advantage and relies on compression and heat to start the oil burning. When cold, the clearances change and get worse which again exasperates the problem.
And my 3406 never had a problem starting even down to -20, but below that I never shut it off when on the road.
I run Rotella oil in my diesels (5.9 Cummins and 3 cylinder Kubota) and I have found that switching from the T-4 (summer use) to T-5 or T -6 (semi/ full synth) for winter use makes them MUCH easier to start when it's cold. Keeping them "plugged in" (coolant heater in 5.9, magnetic/ block heater on Kubota) makes a HUGE difference, as did moving to a lower elevation (not a practical answer, but I noticed a big difference) Finally I run an additive in cold weather (Power Service white bottle).
IIRC old PSA diesels used a heating element built into the fuel filter.
Alaska- run an extension cord to vehicles with 12 Guage wire to a 4 way outlet. 1 outlet has like a 2 amp trickle charger for batteries, 1 to oil pan heater pad, 1 to transmission fluid heater pad, and 1 to engine block heater. -70 Fahrenheit no problem. Set on a timer to start warming up 2 to 4 hours prior to wanting to start engine. Leave for work at 6am, set timer for 4am. Also saves a ton of money on electric bill! Lol
I used to always plug my truck in , now i no longer do this ,,I bought an APU very first thing when i bought my 1977 peterbilt 359 ,,this particular truck has a 12V71 2 stroke detroit and it won't start unless plugged in ,, i program the APU computer with the time i want to start my engine and 30 minutes before i get ready the APU starts up , it runs an oil pan heater and also the cabin heat ,,and because the APU shares coolant with the truck engine , no block heater necessary ,plus the APU warms the truck batteries and charges them too ,,so even when it's negative 40 outside i jump in the truck and crank the engine and it's just like it's 90 deg outside ,, all 3 of my trucks have an APU now and i won't ever own another truck without one ,most APU units will also automatically start regularly to keep the trucks batteries charged
Space heaters. I'm lucky now all the equipment is in the shop, but back in the day you would fire up a 150,000 btu space heater, put an old parachute or tarp around the machine before you would even attempt to start an engine.
I used to know a guy who drove a tracktor in stead of a car (he was an artist...) He had painted it white.
Anyway, he made a small bonfire under the engine in the winter before starting it. That worked.
An important thing to understand about diesel vs gasoline is the flash point. What is actually being burned is vapor from each. Diesel must be approx 125d F to flash off as gasoline is only around 55dF.
I feel silly. I just experienced this last week. I have a 6.5 Detroit Diesel and drove about 300 miles to find a hood and bumper (for a different vehicle). After 30 minutes in sub-freezing weather, I was ready to hit the road, and I turned the engine but no start. I asked the junk yard for permission to park my truck there for a few days. My plan was to get to a bus station, get home, get another truck + trailer, and tow the 6.5 back home. Guy instead offered to give me a jump. I'm like, "Battery's fine, something wrong with the engine, or fuel, or something". So guy hopes in my truck, glows it, and fired it up without a jump. Despite 300 miles on the freeway, 30 minutes in below freezing weather was enough to cool the engine enough that it needed to be glowed. I felt silly.
Indirect diesels need glow plugs to start even in 75F
@@fastinradfordableyup seems like 50° and below my 7.3 idi wanted them
Glowplugs operate even at warm temperatures for a reason
Thank you for sharing the experience
Always glad to see you post
Here in northern Europe, we use auxiliary heaters that run on diesel and heat the coolant, used for both heating the engine and cab, set it on a timer and it's nice and warm in the morning.
Blockheaters are very common on smaller vehicles like cars and pickup trucks, plug the vehicle into an outlet and a coil in a water passage heats the coolant.
Same in Northern North America..😂
The you all's, well that's a different thing. When they go North, all bets are off.😂
I have a remote start, she goes out and starts the truck right after she makes me breakfast, also plows the snow off the driveway. took 32 years to train her but is working good now.
Long as you treasure and service her regular?@@camshaftP16
I put a Webasto boiler in my sailboat. It worked so awesome. Thank you
Thanks for this very clear video. Many videos show big diesel cold starts (locomotive or generators), with much smoke, explosion sound and sometimes flames pouring from exaust. It looks like cylinders start one by one in fact.
Not much to add, other than the reason the oil viscosity in the cold is important, is that a diesel relies on the engine turning over fast enough to generate enough heat for ignition to happen. If it turns over too slow it doesnt make the heat quick enough, and it doesnt kick off. Running a trickle charger on the batteries over night when its cold also helps.
My current diesel merc that i had since new is 7 years old and has started 100% of the time for those 7 years. even through snow storms, -10, always starts first time. Probably about 3000 starts. Seems modern diesels are very good in cold weather!
Main component is cranking speed. A slow crank won't build enough heat.
A Canuk here from the Moyie River Valley... a bunch of miles north of your Idaho location. Usually in February we hit our low of lows...minus 20 to minus 30 F. My '03 Ram 3500 5.9 Cummins is a champ and with about 1 to 2 hours of block heater on..will fire with ease. Also, I swap out 15 weight Rotella oil from summer use to 5 weight Rotella for winter.. Just as a note of comparison..prior to using the block heater for a couple of years the Cummins fired up as normal, the block heater simply made the warm up for my ass in the seat a bit more comfortable.
GM dealer tech here light duty mostly 4cyl turbo and 5.3… love the content and I learn a lot especially on the diag and tear down videos. Would definitely watch the long formats as well. Thank you
Thanks for your show 🙏
Man. You rock. Rarely do I watch all the way through. I got a diesel Jeep Gran Cherokee and it’s been cold as hell. Had to get it jumped some mornings. Makes sense about the battery and how you described the intake. Thank you man!
Cat Cold Weather packages still generally come with an Ether solenoid setup- the ECM controls a dose sprayed into the inlet. So it gets to determine when and how much, so it can minimize potential for damage.
Older farmers would light fires under the oil pans to get machinery to start. It's a miracle more of them didn't burn down considering most of them were slobbery oily messes
The hardest part is dragging the half dead batteries across the frozen yard. After a few beers. With only one leg.
Ole peg getting it done lol
It's been a long time since I've been around large trucks I've ran diesel pickups for years I have a old 2000 Ford F350 4wd powerstroke diesel it starts in the winter but not real easy northern Michigan gets cold in the winter my 2016 Ford F250 powerstroke diesel it starts great no matter the temperature I've never plugged it in
Appreciate your channel. 84 Mercedes TD inline 5 owners manual says crank till the oil pressure rises. This because the crank rpms are faster than idle. Many don't understand the starter is made for this. Man its a massive starter. :)
We have a 5.9 Cummins in front end loader that will start with touch of a button hot or cold. No heaters, ether.
good explanation. winter diesel helps prevent gelling. the biodiesel will increase chance of gelling since its very hygroscopic. a followup on additives may be helpful as well. or use of pan heaters, block heaters, or battery heaters can also help
You forgot to mention those crappy indirect injection diesels that inject into a combustion chamber before the explosion enters the cylinder, they require glow plug starts even in summer.
Not true, John. A neighbor has a diesel tractor with indirect injection and he has absolutely no trouble starting it for most of the year. I have a 6.9L International IDI engine in a pickup truck and same thing: no problem starting until the winter weather arrives.
We will use a hair dryer to blow hot air into the intake if we have a problem starting. I have started a 1968 #60 Hough with a v6 cummins ( 352 I think, the hardest damn engine to start I have ever seen, can be 95 out and needs a little shot of starting fluid)when it is -30 and sitting in an unheated shed. Had a 1000watt tank heater on 24-7 to keep the engine from getting totally cold. A 200 amp battery charger is hooked up , a warm can of starting fluid(a couple of short shots) and the hair dryer blowing hot air into the intake.
My Perkins diesel has a diesel fueled flame heater in the intake. Fortunately it is disabled in marine applications. I keep it in south Florida for easy starting 👍
I run in British Columbia and Alberta Canada, and see plenty of cold temps. At a certain point, its just easier to leave em running. Note with DPFs etc, bump up idle rpm to 1100ish to ease sooting.
For gelling, knowing what your diesel is rated to is key. They'll blend in kerosene or such. Know your LTO number (low temperature operability). The after msrket anti gel works well, know your dosing--biodiesel blends need 200% dosing!
Cold start PRO trick, have some spare diesel, warm it however you want (hot water immersion works well, with an old howes jug), add some nice warm diesel into your fuel filter/water seperator RIGHT before starting.
100% helps, I've cold started a cold-soaked -32c engine with no heaters this way, 2nd try. She was unhappy and oil pressure took a lot of buzzing and STOP ENGINE to quiet down....
I know on my older VW diesel they had choke looking thing for cold and winter starts. I think it was for opening the air intake the whole way open after the glow plugs were done because back then, the glow plugs were not that great.
Makes sense why some of the old-timers up here in the Northern Rockies talk about draining their oil every night and adding it back into the system in the morning. 😑
Yah: if it's the difference between getting a motor started or not, draining the oil is not terrifically inconvenient in this instance.
I'm not sure I'd like to do this on my semi truck I have which has 12 gallons of oil; but on a car where there's only five quarts.....
I use a Maxwell Ultracapacitor bank in my 73 6-71 powered IH semi. It replaces 2 lead acid batteries and is not effected by temperature. 7000 CCA baby!!!!
I own a GMC with a LML Duramax, I live in Canada so it tends to get cold. I baby my truck, so it lives in the garage. When I’m going to use it I plug it in, this activates the block heater, oil pan heater and transmission pan heater, did I say I baby it?
This eliminates the glow plug cycle and also the intake heater once running, this saves the batteries and fuel. I use Rotella T6 0W-40 in the engine.
I drive a school bus with the MaxForce diesel, I’ve never had a problem starting in the cold, some drivers do because they don’t understand diesel engines.
Our diesel pusher RV w/ a glow plug equipped Cummins L9 has an Aqua-hot diesel fired boiler onboard which provides unlimited hot water to the coach along with hydronic heat that can also pre-heat the engine coolant using a segregated circulation pump. Also from the factory, has an electric block heater. Can use both at once. We head to warmer climes during winter so not used very much but good to know it is there and why.
Gelling occurs when paraffin wax within diesel fuel solidifies and bonds together at extremely low temperatures. There are products to add to the fuel tank to help from this happening.
Summer time Diesel #2 is sold, and winter in extream cold areas, Diesel #1 is sold. generally cut with kerosene..
Do not use Ether and Glow Plugs together. Disable the GP`s first.
Engines that require a Valve Adjustment, do it before winter starts.
Make sure you have 2 good batteries, with clean connections, good cables with no corrosion. Clean connections at Starter relay, and on the Starter.
An old tired starter usually won`t turn the engine over fast enough, and cuts your chances of starting.
A tired high mileage engine will have lower compression, and will be more difficult to start.
I have had Diesels since oct 81, when I bought an 82 Datsun KC with the Nissan SD-22 Diesel engine. still have it, put over 480K miles on it.
97 bought my first Mercedes Diesel 85 300D Turbo, still have it
80 240D, 82 240D, 84 300SD and 4 others in the yard.
86 and a 85 Ford f250 6.9 Diesel 4- spds.
84 JD 950 3 cyl Yanmar
2012 Kioti CK30
On the 86 F250, when the GP`s were not working and forgot to plug in the Block Heater.
A HF Heat gun shoved down the intake a minute or so, she will light right off.
Be sure to remove the Filter element, or you will have extra heat when it catches fire....
Usually the older engines used in cars and light trucks are IDI engines, Indirect Diesel Injection. They have a swirl Chamber the fuel is injected into to, and where the tip of the GP is.
Larger trucks are Direct Injection. where the fuel is injected right onto the Piston.
The Dodge Cummins is one, from 89 - to around 99 then went to the electronic garbage as all new Diesels are, computer controlled.
The International DT 466 I saw mentioned in the comments, does not have Glow Plugs, We got 2 new trucks back in 80 we drove for 15 years or so both auto trans, then we got a 95 466 5-spd 2 spd Diff I drove for 10 years before I retired. NO GP`s.
The other crew got a 96, and first year with the Computer, never liked driving it.
Josh like your topic, will help a lot of people to sort of understand these Engines.
I got a job at the local John Deere dealership last year and was surprised to find that they still use ether on new equipment. Coming from a New Holland dealer I found that weird. Lots of the 10+L engines in CNH equipment uses 24V for starting and they all use a pre-heater or glow plugs.
Some cold start strategies.
Cold start on 1970's + / - diesel International tractors / backhoes.
US market used ether , Euro market used a diesel fueled electrically ignited intake heater ( flame plug )
If you really want to get obscure, there is a 1940's International engine that had a second intake valve that opened into a chamber fed by a gasoline carb. Yep, the engine started on gasoline then switched over to diesel. I've seen an engine that had a way to add gasoline to the engine oil as a way to thin it out. This was an oil fill just below the gasoline fuel valve.
Small single cylinder Yanmar engines have a port on the intake where you add engine oil in order to raise compression ratio for better cold start.
Hatz engines have a plug that leads to the cylinder where you put a flammable rod into the plug, light it , insert plug into cylinder then start the engine.
Ive got a skidsteer with a 4.5L 4cyl NA john deer diesel that doesnt not have any cold start aids. If its below freezing, it needs to be plugged in to start. If its plugged in and below like 10⁰F you are gonna need ether, or brake clean, or whatever your choice of starting fluid is.
Very uncommon now but the old compression release was great. Takes 2 guys to start it. 1 to work the lever and another to work the key. There were some bypasses that could be done to start it if you're alone
The Army's F5070 AKA International Pavestar 20-ton dump trucks had a compression release lever and in 1999 to 2002 Kingston NY, Reserse unit that still had these Vietnam area vehicles, it would take three of us to start one in the winter. One lying across the front left tire pulling the lever, one to spray either, and the other to turn the key. Heaven help us if it needed to be jumped without another one running because they never upgraded them to 24V systems and they were the only 12V systems we had besides our POVs
can u talk more about the ones that ignite diesel in the intake? never heard of that before.
Thats why these newer model trucks have there apus hardline to the trucks. Theres plus and negatives about that. Keeps coolant flowing to temp and real big negative is when u spring a coolant leak your screwed. I had 1.2 million miles on my 579 last winter got down to -20 didnt start it for 2 weeks cranked right up. Keep the injectors maintained change fuel filters regularly during winter. And youll have no problems.
Thank you for another informative video post.
Don’t forget that those old Detroit Diesel 2-strokers use straight 40wt year-round. My loader has a heat can so I plug it in for an hour in cold
Definitely a good topic for this time of year.
Thermostart is actually pretty common in agriculture and Perkins.
Glowplugs were used primarily in pre combustion engines.
Engineers used to believe that the heavy iron parts of the engines would soak up the heat of the compression cycle.
Timing advancement and higher injection pressure really seems to help.
Thinner oil certainly increases starting RPM.
Maybe diesel fuel won't burn in a puddle on the ground but dip a rag in it and light away.
The compression along with the real culprit, rind cylinder stiffness with cold oil on the cylinder walls. we have quite a number of diesels of all the major makes. Some heat the water in the head. They work eventually but not as easy as those with the block heater placed near the bottom of the cylinder liners. This leaves us to believe the cold oil on the cylinder walls is a big source of the drag on the starter. We have a 1993 Mack truck an E7 that will start below zero cold without block heat. The newer electronic E7 is good, but not like the 93 model. We attribute this to the extra amps being diverted to the computer. The Cat engines we have are good too, but the C9 HUI engine can be a pain. The record for that old Mack is -12 deg. in a cold building.
Years ago I work at a place that had a 1981 kubota and it had to have the the glow plugs if it was below 75 degrees … in South Carolina , my 7.3 is a struggle to start in the cold but the skid loader will start without glow plugs below freezing
I have a 6kW Kubota generator that requires a few seconds of glowplug even on a warm day. That's because it has been through a few owners, has over 11,000 hours on it and the compression isn't what it used to be. This is something I can live with, though, as the unit is so dependable.
It's actually quite simple. It really boils down to the vapor pressure and the flash point of aliphatic % hydrocarbons. The vapor pressure is easily explained via a logarithmic graph which explains the depressed pressure at lower temperatures. The flash point of these same hydrocarbons is around 125° F which is easily obtained within the cylinder, as per the ideal gas law. However, depressed vapor pressure and temperature make the spontaneous ignition of diesel prolonged.
Diesel while being flammable is also a very stable substance, diesel fuel needs 2 things to properly burn; compression (AND LOTS OF IT), and heat... so basically in cold weather performing a cold start you are relying on the heat made by the compression friction to start the motor.
I know that newer auto diesel engines will run a thinner oil all year around or they have it specified for the winter. Ford recommends 10w30 for summer but only if fuel is not B5 or B20, other wise its 5w40-T6. Cummins 6.7L is 10w30 summer and 5w40 T6 winter, however, 5w40 T6 is a lot cheaper so most run this year around.
A good battery is the key!
Just to add a couple of diesel engine cold starting aids -- The Cummins engines of six decades past could be spec'd with a compression release lever, which when engaged, would allow the engine to initially turn over much faster, thus heating the combustion chamber quicker. Release the lever and all other conditions being favorable, the engine would start. Also, #1 diesel fuel, as opposed to #2 diesel, could be purchased in the colder climates to aid the starting process.
And there was me thinking it was just so it spun over easier with that big flywheel.
When you made the comment about diesel engines really drawing the amperage to crank over, that reminded me of an item I have noticed in a few random videos from the states of highway tractors that were using three batteries in a battery box that is designed for four batteries. Is this a theme you have noticed on trucks in the shops you've worked at or perhaps its prior owners having cut corners all they can and eliminated one battery. I've never seen such a thing on any trucks I have looked at or owned up here in Alberta. Battery capacity as in number of batteries ( and health along with sound connections ) is everything in cold weather as one needs all the help one can get to ensure a reliable starting diesel ( along with the block heater, the correct oil viscosity and so on )
My neighbor (80) has a 1965 580 Case backhoe. no glow plugs. I have seen it start immediately from 80 f down to 0 F. I am baffled. It only idles while working, so much power, I've never heard it misfire or run erratically. It is crazy. Sips diesel fuel but boy it is heavy and only two wheel drive.
Good stuff man , thanks again
I plug my Dodge Cummins in when it hits 32°F or colder for ease of starting. The reason batteries seem weaker in cold climates is cause the cell activity in the battery is slower. Batteries discharge at a faster rate in hot climates as the cell activity is much more active.
many years ago in the freezing cold we would build a fire under the oil pan and jump it off
Air temperature effects the air density,cold is more dense this means more air in the same volume making the air fuel mixture’s different, more air to compress the more resistance, all the other mentioned items are true also , pre heaters on air intake depends on the type you may not want to use ether . Ether is highly ignitable ( low heat ) that probably why it works well in the cold . Keep it on the toasty side.
I have a Manitou with a Perkins 1103A-33 Engine, it doesn't like to start, even with 40 seconds on the glow plugs ( I fitted new glow plugs and they do work) it is easier to start in summer.
That is a sweet Kubota sir
Webasto, nuff said
As always, very informative.
3126 are hard cold starting. If it's going to be near zero, the block heater's plugged in.
Can you also talk about the v8 cat 3408? Great videos btw!!
Very informative thank. Always enjoy your CAT vids especially, as I run a 6NZ ... funnily enough in New Zealand.
Not sure if you've covered this- direct and indirect injection/pre combustion advantages/disadvantages. 😊
Thanks for sharing it
My Mentor Adept Ape
👍
ACCOMPLISHED Adept Ape
From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧 ⏰️ 07:47am Good Morning 🙏 🌄
Before watching the video, I'm going to problems building enough heat to ignite the fuel. At fifty below, on Cat 651b it took about 5 minutes of glow plugs to ether to ignite and usually a whole can of ether to get the engine running. Pony motor start on on a D9g was a completely different story
All 5 of my B7100s you have to turn the key to the left for glow plugs.
Hey Josh, how about do a video on fuel tank and in-line fuel heaters for dealing with cold weather operations to prevent jelling.
Easy answer
Warm weather- oil nice and liquidy flow through engine nice
Cold weather- oil turn to slushie, does not flow through engine nice
Great tutorial!👍😎
Quite excellent. Thank you.
The glow plugs aren't really on the cylinder, they are in the precombustion chambers. My favorites were the IH tractors that started on gas, and then changed over to diesel. Also a higher cetane value will make them start easier. (Cetane is sort of the apposite of octane in function)
Non-IDI engines have the glow plugs in the cylinders.
7.3 powerstroke direct injection have the glow plugs in the cylinder
G'day Josh, Think "fire triangle" Fuel, Oxygen, Heat. The three things needed for a fire. cheers from down under.
Awesome, I love the detail. I was wondering Josh, what is happening when a diesel engine is addicted to ether?
DT466 international 2005 it's hard to start that one and it doesn't have glow parts. Just a warmer
The old Volkswagen diesel Rabbits needed glow plug help in the summertime .
These ran very well economical my dad ran 1 for 13 years
International made a crawler 6cyl diesel
With carburetter and distributer
For petrol cold starting then diesel when worm
Never had anything throw a fit like s 6.9 or 7.3 ford with even 1 bad glow plug😂😂😂😂
That tractor reminds me of my gfs massey in any temp, that thing wont catch up for nothing without at least 30 or 40sec of plugs. My 3400 kubota will usually fire on the first or second crank without even touching the plugs
Not mine, probably needs new nozzles would be my guess, but who knows, she runs.
@@AdeptApe I'd like to see someone refresh a fuel system on an old tractor like that just to see how they run like new
@@AdeptApe I have had a kubota B7200 since new ( 1985 model ) and it always has been completely useless to start even at 70f without the use of the glow plugs. Even plugging in the block heater its still not hot enough to start without the use of the glow plugs. The only time it will start without glow plugs is if it was just shut down from operating temperature and restarted within minutes. While it seems rather ridiculous, that is the way it is with my model and perhaps yours falls into that similar category ( I assume they are indirect injection ? ). I used to use it during the winter to run a grain auger, as long as it was plugged in, I also use 0W40 synthetic, and use the glow plugs for what is probably 30 seconds, it started fine. I would not worry at all about yours, if she runs fine when warmed up its all good ( hopefully you do have a block heater on yours as well )
That's good to know, I figured I just was a bad Diesel owner lol. It will not start without those glow plugs. It's a noisy, clackily little guy, but I love my tractor. Actually got it stuck today, had a 2 foot mound of snow in front of me and my 5ft scraper blade piled with snow. Got stuck between both piles and even in lowest gear with it in 4x4 and diff lock it would just spin on the slushy wet snow. We had about 8" of snow and it was raining, super fun. Got it unstuck though and it's safe and sound in the garage now. Thank you for the info.
@AdeptApe no worries, I'm actually super impressed how much yall push with those turf tires given that all we're dealing with is mud and I'm about to fire my industrial tires
The word you were looking for in the comparison between gasoline and diesel is called volatility. Since gas engines use and external ignition system, and since is is so volatile, an open flame or spark will ignite it.
Diesel runs on compression ignition. As you compress anything, you raise the temperature. Diesel needs between 62-98 degrees C. Now think about sub 0c/32f temps. Back when I was in Northern BC, we were used to -40 temps. (c and f meet at -40.) We would run tiger torches under the oil pans to warm the oil. We would also use propane injection to get the engines running, till they had enough heat to burn the diesel proper. Most winters, we would run them 24/7.
Another good point you made is how batteries have much less power the colder they are. Another reason I think EV cars are stupid! The faster you can spin the engine, the greater chance is has to start.
Have a great day! o7
PS - I am a Mechanic of 35+ years. I am self employed, and run my own shops. I fix everything and anything, as well as doing classic car restorations. I am on a 95 acre farm, and fix everything here, including tractors, some of which are from the 50's, and a couple of modern ones. I grew up on farms, and learned at a very young age, in very harsh conditions. It was all about survival back then, and it has served me well to this day.
Just know, that anyone here can do it too! Take your time, be patient, even if you have to walk away every once in a while. Everyone should be able to do at least the very basics. That knowledge can save you.
Volatility is not necessarily a measure of how easily something will burn. Some chemicals such as 2,4D ester are extremely volatile but are not flammable at all. Ask any cotton grower who has had his cotton poisoned by a volatile broad leaf chemical that was applied miles away. I don’t know if he had trouble starting his tractor though. Jeff
I've worked outside my whole life and the guys that are in a hurry have the most trouble. Two sets of cables, a 270+ amp alternator, and some time will even make a old two stroke start.
What's up do you have to cut counter bores to do a rebuild or a overhaul a mechanic told me if you don't cut counter bores you can do a complete overhaul or rebuild I'm talking Cummins, Detroit, caterpillar thanks I'm company driver still learning thanks
I was waiting on you to explain why semi trucks don’t need glow plugs to start. They produce more heat than pickups diesel.
Great video!
I have also found that by the time I get my hands on an old diesel, they’ve been run hard and put up wet, with lower compression than when they were new. The best bet is to have hot batteries and a good leak free fuel system.