I've always said Dave is the AA of debt. He OD'd on debt when he was younger and does his best to totally abstain. AA can be great for a lot of folks - but not everyone is an alcoholic
It absolutely boggles my mind that Dave never considers Sequence-of-Return Risk. Telling people that they can safely withdraw 8% is utterly insane and very dangerous.
@@nathanrice7352 I don't know about that. I know a lot of people who "follow" him in some sense of the word, and even people who teach his class, but disagree with parts of his advice. I'm not sure I know anyone who actually does everything he says to do.
@@hopelessdecoy What's sad is you are not wrong, he has literally given this advise reference student loan interest freezes. Students have had 0% loans for many years now and his advise was literally to do everything you can to get out of that debt "before it's to late and the interest rate kicks in". Meanwhile basic common sense tells you that you could instead put all of that money into a 100% safe high interest rate savings account on standby for the day that interest rate comes back. That way you get a modest 4% or so return in the mean time, and even get the chance to see that debt be forgiven (it's not going to be forgiven... but you still might as well wait to see).
@@CHRIS-tg5cn I very much advocated setting aside the money and not ignoring the debt. Yes, it COULD be forgiven, me holding no hope for that coming to fruition doesn't change the fact it COULD happen. It's called being wrong, and only a moron doesn't plan for that possibility.
This is why Warren Buffet says to stick to what you know when giving advice. Dave knows getting out of debt. He knows nothing about intelligent investing. Most likely, he's gotten too used to being hailed as the foremost authority for everything financials, and it's gone to his head.
8% withdraw makes complete sense. If you are getting a 12% return and 4% is going to inflation why would I use a 4% withdrawal rate and have it growing 4% a year in perpetuity? Now sure if you're dumb enough to invest in things like bonds or money market accounts and get no rate of return. 4% might work but if you are getting a good rate of return it would be asinine to only withdraw 4%
Great show fellas. I’ve followed the Ramsey plan to get out of debt but once I was completely debt free I pivoted to the Money Guys school of thought. Thanks for the balanced approach.
Hey @ryanw9510. 100% come in piece. I too followed Ramsey plan to get out of debt. Curious if you are back to debt such as using credit cards? Promise I'm only asking out of curiosity. I don't know many people who know how to control their finances.
@@jefferydoherty7368Jeff I appreciate your approach, haha. I will finish baby step 2 next month, but will definitely keep my credit cards. None of my debt has ever been cc related and I have $10-15k in rewards through regular spending.
@@jefferydoherty7368Good question. I currently do use credit cards and I'm that small percentage of people that is disciplined enough to pay off my credit card every month but I only did that once I was debt free. I never had a credit card before while doing Dave's baby steps. I technically do have debt again but it's because I purchased a rental property. It's a totally different type of debt and Dave doesn't teach about rental property; only purchasing property as a primary residence. I always knew I wanted to get into real estate so I know I'd have to pivot my thinking once I was out of debt. My real estate philosophy is like Robert Kiyosaki of "Rich Dad, Poor Dad". Rental property debt is good debt so long as you don't overleverge yourself and put a good downpayment down. I pick a good tenant, they pay off the debt for me, they have a place to stay and in 30 years I own it out right and it's more income. It all depends on your goals. Dave Ramsey's plan will have you working until your 65 and I wanted to retire early. I was never that type of person that was hardcore "dont use credit cards" and I've taugh several FPU classes. I enjoy the simple perks that come with it for making everyday purchases that I would already be making. If you can't handle using a credit card don't use it. Avoid it at all costs. If you have the discipline to not get into debt then go ahead. I know that was long winded but hopefully it answered your question.
@jefferydoherty7368 I can tell you as someone who follows Dave for the baby steps, now I still use a credit card, but I pay it off daily. I don't carry a balance longer than a day, yet I still get my 2% cash back. I don't like using a debit card, now someone has direct access to my cash and my bank account. That is stupid. And my bank account doesn't give me 2%. 2% isn't making me rich as Dave says but I ain't leaving 2% cash back on the table.
Same for me. I was a huge Ramsey fan and he helped me get credit cards paid and car loans. But after COVID, Dave is mean now. Not the same Dave. I'm taking his advice with a grain of salt, which pushes me to the Money Guys. My new favorite content on UA-cam. Keep it up folks!
Dave: I make 11% no matter what on investments. Also Dave: Paying off 3% loan is always the fastest path to wealth. That's a pretty simple math equation to evaluate
We don’t know what the future is but SP500 early 1871 to 2023 (152 yrs) incl reinvested dividends avg ~9.17% per yr. Adjusted for inflation ~6.89% per yr. DCA per month higher return vs lump sum. (Official data org site 2023)
I just want to point out how classy it was for the Money Guy Team to find a video that had the same advice as the recent 8% withdrawal viral moment without sensationalizing it.
Dave was my starting point in personal finance at 18 and the reason I paid my way through college debt free and remain debt free at 28. The Money Guy Show is for those who have thrown off their training wheels and are indeed, financial mutants. Both have a place in the PF world and do great good for society.
I would actually argue that's not right either. Following the FOO from the Money Guy Show will set you up just as well when starting out, without the need for some epiphany at some point to keep you from following Dave too far down the bone headed route of 8% withdrawal rate, or using 401k to pay a low interest home loan off.
The scary thing is when people follow Dave's advice on investing and withdrawing something like 8% annually, and end up running out after the first decade.
I hope one of them is that you shouldn't take an employer match while in debt. I vehemitely disagree with that one. I refuse to pass up a risk free 50-100% rate of return.
Doing so (declining the match) is saying you’d do the same job for less money. It’s part of your total compensation. It’s like saying you should decline health coverage because that too lowers your paycheck
@@brianmcg321 you can be in debt without being on the verge of bankruptcy. There is actually a long way between these two financial points for most people.
His point is that the average person that has debt isn’t as smart as they think they are. They are better off just putting everything on debt than messing with a match.
The Ramsey brand is in decline. Dave should recognize that times have changed and the data that TMG presented is real and is sound logic. He can be stubborn and protect his ego or he can recognize that maybe he isn't always giving out the best advice. You either change with the times or you are stagnating.
His brand is actually larger than ever because more people than ever are in debt and struggling right now. His advice i still think is good for like 90% of people. Most people need very simple advice
@@Davefitz04 Some of his advice is good. But advising an 8% withdrawal rate is not. And when your own daughter is cringing at what you are saying then something is wrong. He can't keep saying crap like 8% withdrawal rate and 12% returns etc etc.
“I’ve been involved in a number of cults both as a leader and a follower. You have more fun as a follower but you make more money as a leader.” - Creed Bratton
I’m glad that I found Dave when I was younger. It helped me avoid some big pitfalls when I was in my 20s. But damn… he gets so cynical and is so close-minded. When Dave jumps down people’s throats because they have a different understanding or have an idea, that strays from his “gospel,” it just becomes such an unnecessarily negative exchange. Thanks Money Guy(s) for bringing a more positive, constructive angle!
He has helped a lot of people. The problem is, and this is common, with fame and adulation he's acquired a big head and an "I'm the expert how dare you challenge me" attitude.
Dave should recognize that times have changed and the data that TMG presented is real and is sound logic. 8% is not the best withdrawal rate, it has been a rollercoaster over 4 weeks been think how to diversify $100,000 market capital.
redicting short-term market movements is extremely difficult in reality. It also essentially requires the investor to be right twice: they must perfectly time both their entrance to and exit from the market.
4:26 I could not agree more. The more episodes of the Ramsey show I watch, the more I realize how quickly Dave jumps to an answer instead of digging for more information. Everyone's situation is different, yet Dave treats all of them in the same way. Where's the nuance? Where's the value that Dave is bringing to the table? All he does is give them a cookie cutter answer to a very complicated question.
Couldn’t agree more. But how much of doing that might borderline on giving personal financial advice, meaning there might need to be legal, financial and contractual situations set up to create a working relationship? Would need to consider those, and guardrails of what regulators would require
This is why I love you guys. Absolutely the best advice out there. Dave has two problems. 1. He has a one size fits all approach. 2. He makes money by funneling people to his businesses. It’s dangerous to give 50 year olds the same advice as 22 year olds and he does it all the time. The reason he has to defend mutual funds over the S&P is because his financial advisors won’t make any money if you just buy VOO on your own. Hes entertaining but not sound financially.
Dave’s advice is absolutely amazing for people who are bad with money and dont understand how things work. It fixes any current problems they have before getting worse, brings them back to stable ground and prevents them from getting into more trouble. However, if you are good with money and looking to optimize/make your plan more efficient, Dave is not the person to help you do that. His priority is helping people fix mistakes they made and providing them with a stable plan, not optimizing financial decisions.
While the audience that benefits from his advise is in fact those that are in debt and have no idea how the system works, the problem with dave is he does not advertise this as his target audience. He advertises his target audience as any and all, and that his advise is all encompassing. He claims NOBODY can use a credit card beneficially, ALL debit is bad, and the list goes on. It's all generalizations that work to make things simple for the uninformed, but they never tell the whole picture.
@@LegDayLasThe thing is, the people who shouldn't be listening to Dave's advice already aren't listening to his advice. If Dave said his advice is suboptimal for clever people, his audience will think, "I'm clever. I'm going to get into good debt and make a ton of money." Dumb people don't think they're dumb, so no-one will listen to you if you say your advice is for dumb people. However, if you say your advice is for everyone, smart people will realise that's not true, but dumb people won't. So, dumb people will end up following Ramsey's advice, which is good because his advice will benefit them, whilst smarter people will do their own thing.
@@me-myself-i787 I 100% agree it is in Daves best interest to spread half truth's, because his target audience would infact hurt themselves thinking they are "the exception".
You mean like advising.them to give thousands of dollars to scammers (who pay Ramsey for his endorsement) to get them out of their timeshares and then criticize the media for exposing the scammers? Everything Dave says is tainted by his self interest. He is not a fiduciary.
Yup, this is my favorite video from y'all so far. I subscribe to both schools of thought. I think Ramsey is superior for people who are bad with money. They need those strict guide rails for their path of success. And I think y'all are superior for the financial mutants trying to min/max their resources within reason. Seeing a comparison video between these schools of thought is awesome, and super valuable to me. Would love to see more of this type of content!
I agree with this comment, Dave Ramseys idea of buying a car in cash is annoying to me. The FOO gives you the flexibility of a 3 year loan, that works a lot better for my family
Brian and Bo are good at funding a happy medium on paying cash for a clunker vs an absurd 72 mo car loan on a car that is more than 8% of gross income.
@@robertmillikan600 84 months is slowly becoming the new norm. 😅 By the time my kids are ready to buy their first car they will be deciding if they want a 15 or 30 year fixed loan. 💀
I feel bad for the guy who has a bad credit score and can't get an apartment. You can build and improve credit score without incurring debt. Get whatever crappy card you can get, put a dinner on it every month and pay it off. The on time payments help, as does having a low percentage of your limits borrowed against. Not being able to get an apartment is a problem that needs fixing, and Dave just went on a debt rant.
I just put one recurring monthly payment (car insurance, life insurance, internet, water/trash utility, netflix subscription etc) on each card and set them to autopay. I never have to think about them again but have a credit score right around 800. I haven't had to use my credit score in years, but once you get set up it takes basically no effort and costs nothing, so might as well keep it high.
Dave calling people IDIOTS (and his biblical mumbo jumbo) is why I jumped shipped from listening to him. You two are RESPECTFUL and most people respond better to your approach 👍🏽😎
Brian and Bo are definitely a breath of fresh air. I'm a huge fan of them and Clark Howard. All 3 are extremely intelligent and respectful of their listeners
Great show! I always say Dave is great for getting out of debt. Once out of debt follow the FOO and Ramit's principals to live a rich life today and tomorrow 😊
Loved this one! It's important that bigger creators challenge some of Dave's more... unusual... takes, because he delivers them with such confidence that people less educated in personal finance often take his word as the gospel truth without thinking twice. Brian and Bo handled these topics with great tact and diplomacy!
For those that still don't get why the 8% withdrawal rate is a terrible idea, watch Rob Berger's video posted 8 days ago titled "Dave Ramsey Says the 4% Rule is 'Stupid' --8% 'Perfectly Comfortable'" He will explain the problem in even more detail.
I saw his rant against the 4% withdrawal rate (stating it should be 7% or 8%) and was somewhat surprised. I like Dave and think he has done an excellent job helping people get out of debt. HOWEVER, someone of his statute needs to be extremely careful giving advice outside of his expertise. People blindly following this advice could be in serious trouble at the first downturn, or worse entering retirement in a down market. Speaking to all online pundits, please, please, be careful about the advice you give; people’s livelihoods are at risk.
The biggest thing that always gets me about Dave is how inflammatory and just straight up rude he can speak about people. I get sometimes people need to hear it a la Caleb Hammer route, but man he can just pull out the "idiot" from out of nowhere and completely change the tone of the message. I don't like it And mega props to TMGS for never doing this - love it
"He jumped to a conclusion without getting all the details". That statement describes Dave to a tee. He has a set standard in his mind and any deviation from that is frowned upon. There is no "one size fits all" for most finance questions. Getting out of debt, yes, but once you're past that point, there are nuances that only you can answer.
I love your videos guys. I love the fact that you keep your videos unbiased and focus on the topics you disagree and you lay out the reasons why with facts. All of this is done in a friendly, respectful and constructive way. Love it! Thank you for what you do.
You two are too kind to Dave for his bad advice in these scenarios but that's also the reason people would be wiser to listen to your content. It's your humility that makes you better at your job.
Paying off your home early is step 6 of Ramsey's Baby Steps, AFTER saving 15% of your income for retirement and saving up a college fund for your kids.
I often joke that Dave taught me how to do a budget therefore he'll always have a special place in my heart. In other words, if not for him helping me with the basics, i would've never looked for folks like who encouraged me to save 21% of my income + the 4% match. Of course i don't agree with him on everything anymore and I'm not sure why he said to pay off the house with asking what baby step they're on since that's actually the 6th (2nd to last) baby step. Anyway, I'm grateful I found him when I did and also grateful for finding you when I did. Thanks!
I've been watching TMG for a little while now, but this video in particular is really helpful to me because of the differentiation between habits to become wealthy versus habits to stay wealthy. Hearing this made me rethink paying down my 4% auto loan as quickly as possible and instead use the extra cash I'd been throwing at it to invest and put those dollars to better work. Brian and Bo really know their stuff, and consider all the details of a situation before giving advice. Love these videos
"I just feel like he jumped to a conclusion without really diving into the details to know what the best answer would've been." That my friends sums up the Ramsey show.
When I was 22 and 23 I listened to Dave all the time. I actually had the feeling that Dave was too simplistic and wrong some of the time. I see this channel can dig deeper and tell me why. Thank you!
Thank you for this one...I've always liked Dave Ramsey, but one thing I've struggled with is this idea that you should always get by completely without debt. I've got a mortgage and a bit of debt for a business, no credit cards, no vehicle loan, no misc debt, but I'm working to pay off the business debt and the amount owed is far less than the assets of the business so I was struggling with this idea that I shouldn't have any debt. I felt like I was failing because I couldn't purchase this equipment that costs tens of thousands without debt even though the equipment has more value than the debt and it brings in enough money to pay for itself plus helping to pay for more equipment etc. This was a huge relief to hear that maybe I wasn't completely out there as long as I'm being smart about this and not getting out ahead of myself with the debt and working to get rid of the debt.
This is why I am so glad I found you guys! I needed guidance for someone who is good with money! I also really appreciate the grace in taking account the current economic challenges! We are saving for a house and it’s rough out here!
Giving these quick one size fits all answers is what made Dave successful. For people who are in really bad situation, someone who is wealthy providing simple solutions is quite useful. For those who take more notice or are more analytical about their finances, nuance and questioning is really important. What is best on an individual level can vary widely.
Thank you for going through these! I'm a little upset you didn't go through the actual clip, although you did mention the withdrawal rate, his question about coast fire was a good one to address.
Dave has done alot of good for alot of people. But he's one of those guys who is so abrassive and perscriptive, that he inspires you to look for alternatives. Where he is making his error is assuming a 12% return in perpetuity is consistent. If you choose to withdraw 8%, you will most likely need at least 1 year worth of funds to ride out the downturns. Finances are a funny thing: it is very individual so tryimg to apply "one size fits all" is a silly thing to try. If 3 or 4% works for you do that. If 8% works for you, do that. Just do it all with your eyes open to data relevant to you and your situation. Don't rely purely on Dave, reddit or even the Money Guys.
I heard this on Dave's show and immediately had the same response as you guys. I made a similar comment. Dave was really out to lunch on that advice. I was really surprised by it. Funny that I'm watching this now confirming what I thought and commented on.
Love both The Money Guys as well as Dave. There is definitely a difference in target audience, and I really appreciate you guys for breaking this down and seeing how the granular specifics compare. Keep it up!
From that chart you showed on the trinity study (at 24:16 ), it looks like a 100% stock portfolio has an equal or higher chance of success for all possible withdrawal rates and the more bonds you add the lower your chance of success. If that's accurate, then why do you recommend a mixed portfolio?
I started my financially literacy journey with Dave Ramsey and luckily graduated to the Money Guy Show but one thing that Dave does better and I have continued in my journey is a monthly budget. With a monthly budget, my husband and I always know exactly where our money went and is going. We have no surprises. It’s the tool that really allows you to build that financial discipline muscle.
Thanks guys. Really appreciate this video. It helps me have peace of mind with my decision to just continue my mortgage payments as usual and focus on contributing to my retirement accounts instead. I'm only 33, so I making my money work for me in the market for the next 30 years just makes more sense to me than paying off a 3.75% mortgage early.
@personal5936 I made the comment with much consideration. It's the consequence of disseminating misinformation. Look at all the comments of people here saying that dave helped them get out of debt, but when it came to wealth building, they had to go elsewhere for info. They did that because they knew they were being misinformed.
26:50 😳 8% withdrawal rate?! Ok, that was insane. My goal is 4% to allow for inflation, but 3% would be optimal. I also don't expect 10% increase in my portfolio, but 6% because that is the economic forecast.
Yes, he has set up his company like that. There are articles regarding his disdain for gossip and the lengths he goes to to curtail it at his company. It's kind of wild.
8% safe-withdrawal rate and count on average of 12% return....AVERAGE...dangerous term to use....Sadly with that attitude, Dave would be the 6' tall guy that drowned crossing a river that's only 5'3" deep......
I can relate more to Brian, I had zero money my mother died I was with no place to live so I borrow money to get me a little house to live somewhere but I did not have enough money to right out buy the house so I went into debt. Today I have only cost of living paid off everything but I had to use bank money to get rolling in life. I think more people are that way I now have excellent credit score but only have 2 cards with zero balance have the cards to order stuff online is why I have credit cards I do not really need credit cards but it seems to be better to use cards online pay them off so that been my personal experience. I got to say credit is what got me where I am at and being careful how I handle my credit cards and how I handle my money. Plus many thing appear to have double-edge swords in life. It just how each individual handle it. thanks for the video.
I agree with you on debt. It is a very dangerous tool. However the temptations that come along with using Credit Cards can be too much to overcome for people that are in the middle of a financial crisis. A large portion of those who listen to Dave Ramsey and follow his principals follow him because they are right in the middle of a financial crisis. So it makes perfect sense, on a psychological level, to tell them to totally avoid credit cards to give them the best chance at success.
I think it's important to know that if asked between two choices, Dave will always choose the one with no debt because of his personal/religious anti-usury moral framework. Even if it's not the best for the individual. That's why he never hears the full story if the question is a clear debt vs no debt choice.
@@gabriellecurboy8890 This is a topic that matters, and I know the conversation has already helped people grow in understanding of retirement planning. I cannot wait for the Money Guys to make a charitable outreach to Dave on this front.
I love the money guys. A few lessons here. Don’t blindly follow any one persons advice. Be skeptical of what you hear on the internet. What worked for Dave might not be best for you. Nothing is guaranteed in life especially money related. Great episode guys ❤
I do thank Dave’s teaching when I was trying to get out of the cycle of debt. I was able to focus and have an easy rulebook to get there. Unfortunately, I have outgrown him when my financial picture became more complicated and stopped following his teachings explicitly.
What about pausing retirement investing, especially when you have an employer match to pay off high interest credit card debt? Dave talks about that and I've done that. A couple times and I still don't know how I feel about it.
Dave is great for people who are terrible with money, and terrible for people who are good with money
Well said
Nice job , that's 100 accurate.
Yes he has a one size fits all approach that doesn't work well for financial mutants
Well said
I've always said Dave is the AA of debt. He OD'd on debt when he was younger and does his best to totally abstain. AA can be great for a lot of folks - but not everyone is an alcoholic
Situation to situation, never one-size-fits-all!
So true 👍
It absolutely boggles my mind that Dave never considers Sequence-of-Return Risk. Telling people that they can safely withdraw 8% is utterly insane and very dangerous.
With how many people follow Dave, that's MILLIONS of people who have drained their retirement because of it.
Didn't Dave just say that very recently? I'm not sure how anyone could have drained their retirement account in a couple of weeks.
@@nathanrice7352 I don't know about that. I know a lot of people who "follow" him in some sense of the word, and even people who teach his class, but disagree with parts of his advice. I'm not sure I know anyone who actually does everything he says to do.
He’s been saying this for decades.
@@JeanValjean875he said it recently, but he’s been saying it for years, maybe decades
The three guarantees in life:
1. Death
2. Taxes
3. Bo being so excited about the day’s episode
😂 @ #3
Dave would still tell people to pay off the mortgage even if they had a .1% interest rate.
He does it with 0% interest rates lol I think if the rate was negative and it pays itself off he'd still tell you to rush it.
@@hopelessdecoy What's sad is you are not wrong, he has literally given this advise reference student loan interest freezes. Students have had 0% loans for many years now and his advise was literally to do everything you can to get out of that debt "before it's to late and the interest rate kicks in".
Meanwhile basic common sense tells you that you could instead put all of that money into a 100% safe high interest rate savings account on standby for the day that interest rate comes back. That way you get a modest 4% or so return in the mean time, and even get the chance to see that debt be forgiven (it's not going to be forgiven... but you still might as well wait to see).
@@LegDayLas u literally contradicted yourself and your point: keep the debt around so it’ll be forgiven even though it won’t be.
@@CHRIS-tg5cn I very much advocated setting aside the money and not ignoring the debt.
Yes, it COULD be forgiven, me holding no hope for that coming to fruition doesn't change the fact it COULD happen. It's called being wrong, and only a moron doesn't plan for that possibility.
@@CHRIS-tg5cnYou clearly didn't read his comment. He explicitly said to keep the money in a safe investment so the debt can be paid in a hurry.
His 8% withdrawal advice for retirement is imo dangerous and negligent. Even his daughter tried to reign Dave in and Dave wouldn't have it
This is why Warren Buffet says to stick to what you know when giving advice. Dave knows getting out of debt. He knows nothing about intelligent investing. Most likely, he's gotten too used to being hailed as the foremost authority for everything financials, and it's gone to his head.
Well said! I would gain respect for Dave if he said "consult with a fee only financial advisor for any questions regarding a safe withdrawal rate."
8% withdraw makes complete sense. If you are getting a 12% return and 4% is going to inflation why would I use a 4% withdrawal rate and have it growing 4% a year in perpetuity? Now sure if you're dumb enough to invest in things like bonds or money market accounts and get no rate of return. 4% might work but if you are getting a good rate of return it would be asinine to only withdraw 4%
@@b.m.4066 What happens to your portfolio in a multi year bear market at an 8% withdrawal rate? Google sequence of returns risk.
@@b.m.4066did you watch this episode?
Great show fellas. I’ve followed the Ramsey plan to get out of debt but once I was completely debt free I pivoted to the Money Guys school of thought. Thanks for the balanced approach.
Hey @ryanw9510. 100% come in piece. I too followed Ramsey plan to get out of debt. Curious if you are back to debt such as using credit cards?
Promise I'm only asking out of curiosity. I don't know many people who know how to control their finances.
@@jefferydoherty7368Jeff I appreciate your approach, haha. I will finish baby step 2 next month, but will definitely keep my credit cards. None of my debt has ever been cc related and I have $10-15k in rewards through regular spending.
@@jefferydoherty7368Good question. I currently do use credit cards and I'm that small percentage of people that is disciplined enough to pay off my credit card every month but I only did that once I was debt free. I never had a credit card before while doing Dave's baby steps. I technically do have debt again but it's because I purchased a rental property. It's a totally different type of debt and Dave doesn't teach about rental property; only purchasing property as a primary residence. I always knew I wanted to get into real estate so I know I'd have to pivot my thinking once I was out of debt. My real estate philosophy is like Robert Kiyosaki of "Rich Dad, Poor Dad". Rental property debt is good debt so long as you don't overleverge yourself and put a good downpayment down. I pick a good tenant, they pay off the debt for me, they have a place to stay and in 30 years I own it out right and it's more income. It all depends on your goals. Dave Ramsey's plan will have you working until your 65 and I wanted to retire early.
I was never that type of person that was hardcore "dont use credit cards" and I've taugh several FPU classes. I enjoy the simple perks that come with it for making everyday purchases that I would already be making. If you can't handle using a credit card don't use it. Avoid it at all costs. If you have the discipline to not get into debt then go ahead. I know that was long winded but hopefully it answered your question.
@jefferydoherty7368 I can tell you as someone who follows Dave for the baby steps, now I still use a credit card, but I pay it off daily. I don't carry a balance longer than a day, yet I still get my 2% cash back. I don't like using a debit card, now someone has direct access to my cash and my bank account. That is stupid. And my bank account doesn't give me 2%. 2% isn't making me rich as Dave says but I ain't leaving 2% cash back on the table.
Same for me. I was a huge Ramsey fan and he helped me get credit cards paid and car loans. But after COVID, Dave is mean now. Not the same Dave. I'm taking his advice with a grain of salt, which pushes me to the Money Guys. My new favorite content on UA-cam. Keep it up folks!
Dave: I make 11% no matter what on investments. Also Dave: Paying off 3% loan is always the fastest path to wealth. That's a pretty simple math equation to evaluate
"But but the math doesn't matter, it's all behavioral!!" That's probably Dave's response.
Also says you don't get a pass on math.
Dave Ramsey helps many people get out of debt. Everyone needs to evaluate any advice other people offer.
We don’t know what the future is but SP500 early 1871 to 2023 (152 yrs) incl reinvested dividends avg ~9.17% per yr. Adjusted for inflation ~6.89% per yr. DCA per month higher return vs lump sum.
(Official data org site 2023)
$1 in 1871 is around 20 something today; however that is the governments numbers; not the actual numbers. @@jmc8076
I just want to point out how classy it was for the Money Guy Team to find a video that had the same advice as the recent 8% withdrawal viral moment without sensationalizing it.
Dave was my starting point in personal finance at 18 and the reason I paid my way through college debt free and remain debt free at 28. The Money Guy Show is for those who have thrown off their training wheels and are indeed, financial mutants. Both have a place in the PF world and do great good for society.
I would actually argue that's not right either. Following the FOO from the Money Guy Show will set you up just as well when starting out, without the need for some epiphany at some point to keep you from following Dave too far down the bone headed route of 8% withdrawal rate, or using 401k to pay a low interest home loan off.
The scary thing is when people follow Dave's advice on investing and withdrawing something like 8% annually, and end up running out after the first decade.
I hope one of them is that you shouldn't take an employer match while in debt. I vehemitely disagree with that one. I refuse to pass up a risk free 50-100% rate of return.
Doing so (declining the match) is saying you’d do the same job for less money. It’s part of your total compensation. It’s like saying you should decline health coverage because that too lowers your paycheck
People on the verge of bankruptcy: “but what about my match”
Lol. What a joke.
That's step 2 of the FOO, right after you save enough money so your deductible (or largest deductible) is covered.
@@brianmcg321 you can be in debt without being on the verge of bankruptcy. There is actually a long way between these two financial points for most people.
His point is that the average person that has debt isn’t as smart as they think they are. They are better off just putting everything on debt than messing with a match.
The Ramsey brand is in decline. Dave should recognize that times have changed and the data that TMG presented is real and is sound logic. He can be stubborn and protect his ego or he can recognize that maybe he isn't always giving out the best advice.
You either change with the times or you are stagnating.
I think he has an aging demographic of folks that are stuck in their ways anyway. Ride the wave into the sunset.
His brand is actually larger than ever because more people than ever are in debt and struggling right now. His advice i still think is good for like 90% of people. Most people need very simple advice
@@Davefitz04 Some of his advice is good. But advising an 8% withdrawal rate is not. And when your own daughter is cringing at what you are saying then something is wrong. He can't keep saying crap like 8% withdrawal rate and 12% returns etc etc.
Lol seems like he’s still going strong 30 years later and the times must not have changed much
@@WeBeatMedicare6969 Let me know how that 8% withdrawal rate works out for ya.
You guys are too nice, it's totally valid to hate on Dave well deserved in many cases.
Agreed, and although he doesn't name anyone specifically, he seems to be hating on The Money Guy's advice.
Simple, ramsey is an idiot with idiot believers
Yes, he indirectly called them Certified Pharisees. Imo that is totally backhanded and classless of Dave.
“I’ve been involved in a number of cults both as a leader and a follower. You have more fun as a follower but you make more money as a leader.”
- Creed Bratton
I’m glad that I found Dave when I was younger. It helped me avoid some big pitfalls when I was in my 20s. But damn… he gets so cynical and is so close-minded. When Dave jumps down people’s throats because they have a different understanding or have an idea, that strays from his “gospel,” it just becomes such an unnecessarily negative exchange.
Thanks Money Guy(s) for bringing a more positive, constructive angle!
He has helped a lot of people. The problem is, and this is common, with fame and adulation he's acquired a big head and an "I'm the expert how dare you challenge me" attitude.
When you only have 1 tool in your toolbox every problem has the same solution. The important lesson is to be wise with everything you do.
Perfect timing for this show...8% withdrawal rate is absolutely dangerous advice.
Dave should recognize that times have changed and the data that TMG presented is real and is sound logic. 8% is not the best withdrawal rate, it has been a rollercoaster over 4 weeks been think how to diversify $100,000 market capital.
redicting short-term market movements is extremely difficult in reality. It also essentially requires the investor to be right twice: they must perfectly time both their entrance to and exit from the market.
It all comes down to Ramsey is like high school, and you guys are teaching us at the graduate school level --Thanks!
4:26 I could not agree more. The more episodes of the Ramsey show I watch, the more I realize how quickly Dave jumps to an answer instead of digging for more information. Everyone's situation is different, yet Dave treats all of them in the same way. Where's the nuance? Where's the value that Dave is bringing to the table? All he does is give them a cookie cutter answer to a very complicated question.
Couldn’t agree more. But how much of doing that might borderline on giving personal financial advice, meaning there might need to be legal, financial and contractual situations set up to create a working relationship? Would need to consider those, and guardrails of what regulators would require
@@andykleschick2047 his whole life has been borderline, in my opinion. 😅
He used to do a much better job of listening to and caring about people and their individual situations. He's become a bit less nice over the years...
And then quotes scripture!
This is why I love you guys. Absolutely the best advice out there. Dave has two problems. 1. He has a one size fits all approach. 2. He makes money by funneling people to his businesses.
It’s dangerous to give 50 year olds the same advice as 22 year olds and he does it all the time.
The reason he has to defend mutual funds over the S&P is because his financial advisors won’t make any money if you just buy VOO on your own. Hes entertaining but not sound financially.
Dave always jumps to his standard answers without knowing the facts. That’s Dave!😂
Never let facts get in the way of pontificating.
Is he still telling people to get a $1000 car?
@@frank13621Fill it with rice and beans, beans and rice.
@@frank13621 Yes, get a $1000 car, and then get another $1000 car when that last one takes a shit in a month, and repeat.
It's such a lazy approach, but it keeps the checks coming in.
Dave’s advice is absolutely amazing for people who are bad with money and dont understand how things work. It fixes any current problems they have before getting worse, brings them back to stable ground and prevents them from getting into more trouble.
However, if you are good with money and looking to optimize/make your plan more efficient, Dave is not the person to help you do that. His priority is helping people fix mistakes they made and providing them with a stable plan, not optimizing financial decisions.
While the audience that benefits from his advise is in fact those that are in debt and have no idea how the system works, the problem with dave is he does not advertise this as his target audience. He advertises his target audience as any and all, and that his advise is all encompassing. He claims NOBODY can use a credit card beneficially, ALL debit is bad, and the list goes on. It's all generalizations that work to make things simple for the uninformed, but they never tell the whole picture.
@@LegDayLasThe thing is, the people who shouldn't be listening to Dave's advice already aren't listening to his advice. If Dave said his advice is suboptimal for clever people, his audience will think, "I'm clever. I'm going to get into good debt and make a ton of money."
Dumb people don't think they're dumb, so no-one will listen to you if you say your advice is for dumb people.
However, if you say your advice is for everyone, smart people will realise that's not true, but dumb people won't. So, dumb people will end up following Ramsey's advice, which is good because his advice will benefit them, whilst smarter people will do their own thing.
@@me-myself-i787 I 100% agree it is in Daves best interest to spread half truth's, because his target audience would infact hurt themselves thinking they are "the exception".
You mean like advising.them to give thousands of dollars to scammers (who pay Ramsey for his endorsement) to get them out of their timeshares and then criticize the media for exposing the scammers? Everything Dave says is tainted by his self interest. He is not a fiduciary.
The core difference between the shows is Dave Ramsey is for folks who are bad with money and the money guy show is for folks who are good with money.
Not really. All American folks are bad with money
Will one of these be his 8% safe withdraw rate?
I'll be shocked if it isn't.
I believe (MG team correct me if wrong) This was prerecorded before the Ramsey rant. So we’ll see if they cover his past 8% comments.
It's been the hottest topic all week!
Oh you know it is coming. This was the biggest ooooooof in Ramsey history.
Use me as an “I knew Bo would be so excited” button
Yup, this is my favorite video from y'all so far.
I subscribe to both schools of thought. I think Ramsey is superior for people who are bad with money. They need those strict guide rails for their path of success. And I think y'all are superior for the financial mutants trying to min/max their resources within reason.
Seeing a comparison video between these schools of thought is awesome, and super valuable to me. Would love to see more of this type of content!
Agree & your comment about comparing 🍎 to 🍎 instead of 🍎 to 🍊 is a great learning opportunity.
I agree with this comment, Dave Ramseys idea of buying a car in cash is annoying to me. The FOO gives you the flexibility of a 3 year loan, that works a lot better for my family
Brian and Bo are good at funding a happy medium on paying cash for a clunker vs an absurd 72 mo car loan on a car that is more than 8% of gross income.
@@robertmillikan600 84 months is slowly becoming the new norm. 😅
By the time my kids are ready to buy their first car they will be deciding if they want a 15 or 30 year fixed loan. 💀
@@robertmillikan600 exactly. I just bought a new car at 5% for 36 months, put down $10,000 so the payment is really manageable
I feel bad for the guy who has a bad credit score and can't get an apartment. You can build and improve credit score without incurring debt. Get whatever crappy card you can get, put a dinner on it every month and pay it off. The on time payments help, as does having a low percentage of your limits borrowed against. Not being able to get an apartment is a problem that needs fixing, and Dave just went on a debt rant.
I just put one recurring monthly payment (car insurance, life insurance, internet, water/trash utility, netflix subscription etc) on each card and set them to autopay. I never have to think about them again but have a credit score right around 800. I haven't had to use my credit score in years, but once you get set up it takes basically no effort and costs nothing, so might as well keep it high.
You can get debit cards now that improve your credit. They borrow on purchase and it's linked to your bank account which then pays it off that day
I got a credit card when i was 18, with a $400 limit. I was able to buy a house at age 22.
It amazes me how Dave can be so confidently wrong.
He appeals to a certain type of person that prefers confidence over facts.
Dunning-Kruger Effect
@jmg567 I was going to say the exact same thing, but you beat me to it! 🤣
Pride, hubris, & arrogance. The name calling of CFPs as "Certified Financial Pharisees" shows how judgmental and insecure Dave is.
@@travis1240 He appeals to stupid people, and then, like the predator he is, sells them junk to enrich himself.
There’s a phrase for that… ‘con man’
Dave calling people IDIOTS (and his biblical mumbo jumbo) is why I jumped shipped from listening to him. You two are RESPECTFUL and most people respond better to your approach 👍🏽😎
Brian and Bo are definitely a breath of fresh air. I'm a huge fan of them and Clark Howard. All 3 are extremely intelligent and respectful of their listeners
The dopamine that I get from you guys reacting to Dave’s opinions is crazy. I need more of this content please!!
Great show! I always say Dave is great for getting out of debt. Once out of debt follow the FOO and Ramit's principals to live a rich life today and tomorrow 😊
Loved this one! It's important that bigger creators challenge some of Dave's more... unusual... takes, because he delivers them with such confidence that people less educated in personal finance often take his word as the gospel truth without thinking twice. Brian and Bo handled these topics with great tact and diplomacy!
For those that still don't get why the 8% withdrawal rate is a terrible idea, watch Rob Berger's video posted 8 days ago titled "Dave Ramsey Says the 4% Rule is 'Stupid' --8% 'Perfectly Comfortable'"
He will explain the problem in even more detail.
I saw his rant against the 4% withdrawal rate (stating it should be 7% or 8%) and was somewhat surprised. I like Dave and think he has done an excellent job helping people get out of debt. HOWEVER, someone of his statute needs to be extremely careful giving advice outside of his expertise. People blindly following this advice could be in serious trouble at the first downturn, or worse entering retirement in a down market. Speaking to all online pundits, please, please, be careful about the advice you give; people’s livelihoods are at risk.
The biggest thing that always gets me about Dave is how inflammatory and just straight up rude he can speak about people. I get sometimes people need to hear it a la Caleb Hammer route, but man he can just pull out the "idiot" from out of nowhere and completely change the tone of the message. I don't like it
And mega props to TMGS for never doing this - love it
"He jumped to a conclusion without getting all the details". That statement describes Dave to a tee. He has a set standard in his mind and any deviation from that is frowned upon. There is no "one size fits all" for most finance questions. Getting out of debt, yes, but once you're past that point, there are nuances that only you can answer.
Ramsey is much better at marketing than he is personal finance.
I have 500k mortgage for 15 years at 2.25%. I'm not moving or selling for a long while.
Brian spoke like a TRUE CFP(R) professional in this episode lol. Appreciating these takes after passing the exam!
I love your videos guys. I love the fact that you keep your videos unbiased and focus on the topics you disagree and you lay out the reasons why with facts. All of this is done in a friendly, respectful and constructive way. Love it! Thank you for what you do.
You two are too kind to Dave for his bad advice in these scenarios but that's also the reason people would be wiser to listen to your content. It's your humility that makes you better at your job.
If Dave can make 12-13% return he should show his books and prove it. He can't.
Give it to Buffet, and BRK-B is in this ball park.
@@mrjuvy49 they pick single stocks
As an european investor I just started following this channel for financial knowledge that you guys share, just love it ! Keep it up 🔥
His worst advice was to payoff a mortgage if you can, Regardless of where the interest rate is at.
No paying off a mortgage is good if you have a high rate or if you have nothing better to do. It just shouldn't be a #1 priority.
@@hopelessdecoyunderstandable, but Ramsey pushes paying off a mortgage, even if on a low interest rate was my point.
Id argue his advice for retirees to live off a 8% safe withdrawal rate is his absolute worst advice.
Paying off your home early is step 6 of Ramsey's Baby Steps, AFTER saving 15% of your income for retirement and saving up a college fund for your kids.
He even says that for 0% debt, people actually take advice from that guy
I often joke that Dave taught me how to do a budget therefore he'll always have a special place in my heart. In other words, if not for him helping me with the basics, i would've never looked for folks like who encouraged me to save 21% of my income + the 4% match. Of course i don't agree with him on everything anymore and I'm not sure why he said to pay off the house with asking what baby step they're on since that's actually the 6th (2nd to last) baby step. Anyway, I'm grateful I found him when I did and also grateful for finding you when I did. Thanks!
Dave has gone full boomer yelling at clouds for some time now.
I've been watching TMG for a little while now, but this video in particular is really helpful to me because of the differentiation between habits to become wealthy versus habits to stay wealthy. Hearing this made me rethink paying down my 4% auto loan as quickly as possible and instead use the extra cash I'd been throwing at it to invest and put those dollars to better work. Brian and Bo really know their stuff, and consider all the details of a situation before giving advice. Love these videos
Dave Ramsey is intro to algebra and you guys are advanced calculus.
FOO > Baby Steps
100%!
"I just feel like he jumped to a conclusion without really diving into the details to know what the best answer would've been."
That my friends sums up the Ramsey show.
We get it Dave, you don’t like credit scores and debt because you went bankrupt. Some of us know what we’re doing
Dave is Intro to Personal Finance. TMG are 400-level classes.
lol could you imagine he hates credit cards because he knows he’d spend all his money on them
Nobody in America does.
When I was 22 and 23 I listened to Dave all the time. I actually had the feeling that Dave was too simplistic and wrong some of the time. I see this channel can dig deeper and tell me why. Thank you!
Thank you for this one...I've always liked Dave Ramsey, but one thing I've struggled with is this idea that you should always get by completely without debt. I've got a mortgage and a bit of debt for a business, no credit cards, no vehicle loan, no misc debt, but I'm working to pay off the business debt and the amount owed is far less than the assets of the business so I was struggling with this idea that I shouldn't have any debt. I felt like I was failing because I couldn't purchase this equipment that costs tens of thousands without debt even though the equipment has more value than the debt and it brings in enough money to pay for itself plus helping to pay for more equipment etc. This was a huge relief to hear that maybe I wasn't completely out there as long as I'm being smart about this and not getting out ahead of myself with the debt and working to get rid of the debt.
This is why I am so glad I found you guys! I needed guidance for someone who is good with money! I also really appreciate the grace in taking account the current economic challenges! We are saving for a house and it’s rough out here!
Yes follow these guys I wish I had listened top any one back in the 70's
Giving these quick one size fits all answers is what made Dave successful.
For people who are in really bad situation, someone who is wealthy providing simple solutions is quite useful. For those who take more notice or are more analytical about their finances, nuance and questioning is really important. What is best on an individual level can vary widely.
You guys pull your punches too much with Ramsey. 💥🥊
I like to listen to you both. So glad to see your channel getting bigger and bigger! You guys deserve it!!!
Thank you for going through these! I'm a little upset you didn't go through the actual clip, although you did mention the withdrawal rate, his question about coast fire was a good one to address.
Dave is very black and white, like his religious thoughts there is no room for critical thinking.
There's no room for critical thinking in 21st century America
Dave has done alot of good for alot of people. But he's one of those guys who is so abrassive and perscriptive, that he inspires you to look for alternatives. Where he is making his error is assuming a 12% return in perpetuity is consistent. If you choose to withdraw 8%, you will most likely need at least 1 year worth of funds to ride out the downturns.
Finances are a funny thing: it is very individual so tryimg to apply "one size fits all" is a silly thing to try. If 3 or 4% works for you do that. If 8% works for you, do that. Just do it all with your eyes open to data relevant to you and your situation. Don't rely purely on Dave, reddit or even the Money Guys.
Y’all are fantastic 🙌🏼 Thanks for breaking this all down and ALWAYS going into detail.
The look on Bo's face when Dave's talking 8%.......... 😂😂😂
Great video! Thank you for explaining the "other side" of things!
I heard this on Dave's show and immediately had the same response as you guys. I made a similar comment. Dave was really out to lunch on that advice. I was really surprised by it. Funny that I'm watching this now confirming what I thought and commented on.
Love both The Money Guys as well as Dave. There is definitely a difference in target audience, and I really appreciate you guys for breaking this down and seeing how the granular specifics compare. Keep it up!
Shots fired
By Dave, yes. He indirectly called them morons with calculators who live in their parent's basement.
Loved this episode! One of the strongest in a while and great data analysis 📈 📊
I've been waiting for this one!! Love ya guys
Dave is great for motivation and helping people get out of doubt! Afterwards it may be better to seek more in depth financial advice!
From that chart you showed on the trinity study (at 24:16 ), it looks like a 100% stock portfolio has an equal or higher chance of success for all possible withdrawal rates and the more bonds you add the lower your chance of success. If that's accurate, then why do you recommend a mixed portfolio?
I was wondering the same thing.
I started my financially literacy journey with Dave Ramsey and luckily graduated to the Money Guy Show but one thing that Dave does better and I have continued in my journey is a monthly budget.
With a monthly budget, my husband and I always know exactly where our money went and is going. We have no surprises. It’s the tool that really allows you to build that financial discipline muscle.
Thanks guys. Really appreciate this video. It helps me have peace of mind with my decision to just continue my mortgage payments as usual and focus on contributing to my retirement accounts instead. I'm only 33, so I making my money work for me in the market for the next 30 years just makes more sense to me than paying off a 3.75% mortgage early.
Feels like I’ve been waiting 8 hours for this!
I think you guys are too soft on Dave, absolute nonsense coming out of his mouth
Thank you for doing a show about these takes from Dave Ramsey.
You guys are great. Good show, thanks.
This is a long time coming. The guys are being polite about it, but Dave's advice is making his audience more ignorant and poorer
ignorant and poorer that’s just too far
@personal5936 I made the comment with much consideration. It's the consequence of disseminating misinformation. Look at all the comments of people here saying that dave helped them get out of debt, but when it came to wealth building, they had to go elsewhere for info. They did that because they knew they were being misinformed.
26:50 😳 8% withdrawal rate?! Ok, that was insane. My goal is 4% to allow for inflation, but 3% would be optimal. I also don't expect 10% increase in my portfolio, but 6% because that is the economic forecast.
Dave is intellectually lazy and it's apparent that he's created a culture around him where no one can disagree with him.
Yes. He's dogmatic about his own advice, which is IMO not helpful
Yes, he has set up his company like that. There are articles regarding his disdain for gossip and the lengths he goes to to curtail it at his company. It's kind of wild.
@@muezzus2626I would love to work in an environment where gossiping is prohibited!
@@marietaylor5174 To the point where a gun is pulled out at a meeting regarding gossip spread? No thanks
Americans in general are intellectually lazy.
8% safe-withdrawal rate and count on average of 12% return....AVERAGE...dangerous term to use....Sadly with that attitude, Dave would be the 6' tall guy that drowned crossing a river that's only 5'3" deep......
Great show!
I can relate more to Brian, I had zero money my mother died I was with no place to live so I borrow money to get me a little house to live somewhere but I did not have enough money to right out buy the house so I went into debt. Today I have only cost of living paid off everything but I had to use bank money to get rolling in life. I think more people are that way
I now have excellent credit score but only have 2 cards with zero balance have the cards to order stuff online is why I have credit cards I do not really need credit cards but it seems to be better to use cards online pay them off so that been my personal experience.
I got to say credit is what got me where I am at and being careful how I handle my credit cards and how I handle my money. Plus many thing appear to have double-edge swords in life. It just how each individual handle it. thanks for the video.
Brian, your journey to success reminds me of my dad's in a lot of ways. It makes me feel more comfortable with you.
You guys rock and I love this show!!
"Is that a butt bank" literally laughing out loud over making dinner because I'm listening as I cook.
My kid thinks I'm crazy now
Dave is good at getting people out of debt and fixing problems. You guys are better at planning to avoid problems in the first place.
I agree with you on debt. It is a very dangerous tool. However the temptations that come along with using Credit Cards can be too much to overcome for people that are in the middle of a financial crisis. A large portion of those who listen to Dave Ramsey and follow his principals follow him because they are right in the middle of a financial crisis. So it makes perfect sense, on a psychological level, to tell them to totally avoid credit cards to give them the best chance at success.
I always thought Dave's "DO BETTER THAN THE S&P500 EVERY YEAR" was a bit unrealistic.
Only 7% of financial advisors beat the S&P 500 and those "great" advisors change over time. Index funds are better.
Please dont sugar coat it 🙏
Bro if you have under 5% mortgage who cares about paying it off
I think it's important to know that if asked between two choices, Dave will always choose the one with no debt because of his personal/religious anti-usury moral framework. Even if it's not the best for the individual. That's why he never hears the full story if the question is a clear debt vs no debt choice.
The full story is almost always one he's heard a thousand times before in his 30 year career.
Maybe I’ve missed it, but I’ve never heard him bring up any anti-usury viewpoints. He just keeps repeating “the borrower is slave to the lender”
You all rock! I am excited for this show. I really really hope it helps Dave and his listeners.
Thanks for starting a much needed conversation!
@@gabriellecurboy8890 This is a topic that matters, and I know the conversation has already helped people grow in understanding of retirement planning. I cannot wait for the Money Guys to make a charitable outreach to Dave on this front.
Great videos guys! I love how data heavy it was. Yall really went into the weeds for this one.
I love the money guys. A few lessons here. Don’t blindly follow any one persons advice. Be skeptical of what you hear on the internet. What worked for Dave might not be best for you. Nothing is guaranteed in life especially money related. Great episode guys ❤
I do thank Dave’s teaching when I was trying to get out of the cycle of debt. I was able to focus and have an easy rulebook to get there. Unfortunately, I have outgrown him when my financial picture became more complicated and stopped following his teachings explicitly.
The distinction between get wealthy and stay wealthy behaviors is so important! Love the clarification here.
given this trinity study, why do you recommend a more cautious portfolio when nearing retirement?
Do more of these PLEASE
Dave will be watching and ranting. Just buy the market. VTI.
What about pausing retirement investing, especially when you have an employer match to pay off high interest credit card debt? Dave talks about that and I've done that. A couple times and I still don't know how I feel about it.