Can we talk about the fact that the current TCR is pretty much the only mainstream race bike with a traditional stem/bar combo and normal cable routing? And it scores very good stiffness scores in the real benchmark lab test from "Tour Magazin " compared to all other mainstream brands!? I think classic cable routing is a very good feature for an amateur with the ability to change bars and stems super easily. All objective lab tests with a TCR are pretty good, and the price is still competitive despite your questionable analysis. So for me the TCR is still an obvious choice as a benchmark
All my road bikes are TCRs :). I am 6' 5" and I weight 186lb. My favorite is the 6th gen TCR and I do find gen 8 and 9 a bit flexy and overpriced framesets. The specs are only stating weight to stiffness ratio, but it is deceiving, because 6th gen is heavier but overall it is much stiffer. TCR is an awesome for its value but the new 2023 frameset is 4400 USD. Instead of paying 4400 bucks for Toyota TCR, I will buy Rolls-Royce Alpe D'huez for 6K.
@travelersimports6915 I don't know what Tour Magazin you read, but N/mm or N/° are not weight related to me. But I agree with the other points! Although recently Tour Magazin testet a new Time ADHX frame and the lab test results were not very impressive. I am the first one to admit that lab test results with a sample size of one have probably limited meaning when it comes to the actual ride feel, but it is the best we got. No one else publishes objective lab test data. Everything else is based on: " oh it feels so stiff "
Famous TCR quote: the one that is lighter than me, not as stiff. The one that is stiffer than me, not as light. Giant seems don't really like the 1 piece combo idea. Even flagship propel come with 2 piece which I love. My local dealer even allow the buyer to custom stem and handlebar now when getting frameset only.
@@MS-bw7yt Haha. I agree there is some level of bro science in those reviews. Thank you for the info, I will do more research and rent for a day before ordering it in 2024. I skipped 2021, 22 and 23. I am going for Rolls Royce, this time :) P.S. Thru-Axle is stiffer. JK
Still tough to beat the Giant TCR value. I recently got the Di2 105 12 speed with carbon wheels for US$3,500. What bike is a better value with electronic shifting and carbon wheels?
Just today, I got a TCR advanced with DI2 105 12 speed with stock alu wheels for 2500 euro. Even if I throw in another 1500 for very good charbon wheels, it's still cheaper than most if not all of what other brands can deliver. About 8-9 years ago, Canyon had a (admitted, Ultegra) DI2 rim brake bike for 2800 euro with low Mavic wheels. Now you get a 105 DI2 disc brake bike for 2500 euro with (rubbish) Giant wheels. So even with all the inflation, prices haven't really gone up, but the current Giant deals are not going to last for long, this isn't their 'normal' price so enjoy while you can.
Rim brake TCR Advanced Pro is going for $1800 in the US. Comes with 105. Ready to race out the door - upgrade as necessary. Disc brake is $400 more. Can't be beat.
They're so nearly race ready, but those pr2 wheels are really bad. Can you race on them, yes. Does that make them "race ready"? No. Giant needs to offer the same builds with better wheels. Right now there's a $1500 jump to get a budget race wheelset, the slr2, that would retail in the $700-$900 range. That's the major value loss right there.
Could you please tell me what the difference between an Advanced grade carbon fork and an Advanced SL grade carbon fork would likely be in terms of rider comfort, stiffness, weight etc.? Basically, the only thing you couldn't change or upgrade over time between the Advanced and Pro models on the Giant lineup. Regarding their naming conventions, I dont see what difference there is in their finishing kit between DFuse SL on their Pro models and DFuse SLR on their SL models. Very confusing. Cheers!
The Pro and SL use the overdrive fork. A 1.5” steerer that considerably stiffens the front end. I don’t know why only Giant need a bigger steerer and stem to achieve this. The standard advanced suffers from torsional flex and feels very soggy when you are breaking and turning into a corner, or out of the saddle on a steep surge or a hill.
@@Mapdec Thanks for the reply! Is that ALL Advanced models across the range and years, including the 2024's? Hard to know what all the differences are between models in their lineup. I wonder where the new Defy leaves the TCR. Seems there is now a gap between the Defy and Revolt I suppose.
Giant is still bang for buck in the Netherlands right now. A TCR Advanced with 105 Di2 for 2499€ is a bargain. With a set a carbon wheels from Giant for 2899€ 😅.
Bought a new TCR 20 years ago when it first came out. Alu frame, carbon blade forks and carbon Burrows seat post, Ultegra group set. Best value for money bike I’ve ever had. When looking at ‘value for money’ you need to compare warranties as well.
Ok, We know you hate Giant. Give us an option for Giant TCR Advanced Pro 1. Ultegra with very good below 1500g wheelset, with dual sided power meter for 3.8k (EUR), retailing around 3.4k. I would like to know what you suggest.
Well that bike in the UK is £4599 and for that y could custom build the same bike for cheaper. You can get a LOOK 785 with rival eTap for the same price.
There seems to be quite some price and availability discrepancies across Europe. @Mapdec The Giant bike would in Denmark normally cost around €4200. The 2023 model is on sale for around €3500 - though not that many left in stock it seems. I would definitely not be able to build a similar custom bike in Denmark for even the normal selling price of the Giant The Look 785 doesn't seem to be available anywhere in Denmark. I would have to buy it mailorder in Germany. Not a huge fan of buying a bike online - but I agree that the specs for the bike look (pun intended) interesting for the price. I still think I would have to look quite a bit to find a better bargain than then Giant TCR Advanced Pro 1 here in Denmark
the shade towards giant is always a little surprising to me. I get that they're not the "sexy" brand but the performance per dollar is obviously still there, at least in US dollars.
This entire conversation needs a big caveat on what market you're talking about. In Australia and NZ for example giant bicycles are much lower cost. While other brands are the same as your UK prices. Giants are like 30-40% cheaper here in Australia
The industry spent the last five years evangelizing electronic groupsets, the years prior cheapifying carbon frames to sell all cyclists on them, and recently decided carbon cockpits and storage bays in oversized tubing are essential features. Bike designers are bored and tasked with making do it all machines while they are met with shrugs and shock at asking prices that consumers respond with “for a bike?” The social media fueled diminution of mechanical put them in a bind. Many now make frames that cannot take cable routing. They abandoned that segment and that segment says no right back at them.
I purchased a 2020 tcr with 105 groupset in 2021 as a stock clearance from a bikeshop. £1400 love it. Only bits ive changed are carbon wheelset 38mm. The only bits i want to change are handlebars (seem to thin and uncomfortable). And charge spoon saddle ive got ready to fit.
Rumors are that Sora, Claris, & Tiagra are to become Cues for drop bars. Further guessing like the flat bar Cues, there will be multiple gearing options.10sp and 11sp at least? Perhaps that will reinforce 105 as the recommended sweet spot group or maybe Road Cues will look good and offer undeniable value?
It looks like you could be right. Reputation isn’t built in a season though. It looked like Ribble, Dolan, and Orro all had a shot and didn’t make it stick.
Yep, the Van Rysel EDR are solid options, starting a bit over 2000€ for carbon frame, 105 groupset and a set of Fulcrum alu wheels that I guess are decent. The Ultegra version is around 2700€ with carbon wheels. Still available in both rim and disc brakes, even though I think it's going to be replaced soon and become discs only as it is Van Rysel oldest plateform.
Don't give mega chains like Decathlon your $. The reason their bikes are as cheap as they are comes down to their business model. Give the big ticket item away at a scrape above cost and make the profit on all the accessories you'll buy to go along with it. Bottles, cages, pump, kit etc. All garbage tier (but a few pennies cheaper than a proper one) with a huge profit margin. The bike will be assembled by a kid who doesn't have a clue which will lead you to spending a bunch of $ on parts and servicing as it all inevitably falls apart, creaks or rattles. Support the local bike shop that supports your local cycling scene.
The issue here is Giant’s pricing in the UK & the perception of some people that Giant is supposed to be ‘cheap’. In where I live, the 105 tcr is far less than the UK’s Tiagra version. Now into the cheap vs expensive territory, that money is supposed to go to R&D. I trust Giant’s R&D far more than some overpriced newcomers (or snobbish old brands that rely on BS marketing). Their wheels are also very good quality wise. They just don’t bear fancy / unique brand names.
With new bike prices doubling in many cases inside about 3 years my money would be spent on a little used second hand bike from the Covid lockdown days👍 When you see some have only done a few hundred miles and in the case of rim braked bikes are often a quarter of the pre telephone number prices - what's not to love about preloved?? Yes, if you can afford the current prices buy new and support the struggling cycle industry, god knows it needs it right now😬 Great podcast, much like your videos, not afraid to air your opinions - good or bad🙏
Interesting. I never thought the caad13 would be called too stiff, since many complained it gave up the rigidity for compliance. I thought the caad13 was way more comfortable than my titanium and allez, granted those bikes back were back from around 2010.
I had a CAAD13 before it was replaced under warranty and compared to the CAAD12 I also had, there was definitely a different ride. If anything the CAAD13 felt a little more comfy, a bit larger (despite being the same general size) and a little bit less sharp than the 12. I probably wouldn't have raced the 13, but I would and have raced the 12. But the 13 was probably a better one to choose for all day rides.
What happened that caused you to warranty it? Thanks for your feedback. I do hear that quite a bit that the caad12 is just a little sharper than caad13. All I can say is that it delivers power a lot better than my older bikes and I don't feel as beat up bumpy roads even on stock wheels. Looking forward to replace stock wheels with something better so the ride is more lively
So the paint started bubbling around the down tube cable port. Then there was more bubbling paint under the top tube. There was no quibbling from the shop (kudos to SigmaSports!) or Cannondale, but the only downside was I had to wait 12 months for a replacement frame! My CAAD 12 is similarly getting a little flakey paint round the cable ports also, but that's a few years older. Had a few frames now with defective finishes - Orbea, Cannondale, Rockrider..... I had SRAM Etap fitted to the CAAD13 so there were no cables to potentially rattle about in the downtube and no faffing with the internal routing other than brake hose. Was my first choice for a big day out but I've moved on since 😉🤦🤣
There’s absolutely no justification for a doubling in price after 3 years. The amount of cope in the comments section is crazy. Almost everyone is getting ripped off and I can guarantee you that none of you would pay these prices for a bike if you bought in the cash which many don’t as the UK has several 0% finance options which dilutes the purchase day outlay
Lots of components at crazy sale prices atm after Wiggle collapse... Just built up a Ridley Noah SL with 105 11 speed mechanical and rim brakes, Vision wheels, Deda cockpit and Prologo saddle for just over 1,500 uk pounds. All new old stock...👍
I picked up a TCR Advanced PRO 0 with Ultegra 12 speed DI2 for $3150 Its the 2022 Amber Glow color which I like. I sent the left crank arm to 4iiii for a power meter. Tell me of a better deal out there?
Love your honest sit down conversations. If the Giant folks get ruffled....oh well. You have poked Cannondale in the past and I have a Cannondale SSE. It is what it is. The cost of all things have gone insane due to supply. Maybe one day it will stabilize again.
"When you outgrow a Giant TCR..."? Puzzling to me to say you're getting much by swapping components from a TCR to a Look/Time. The TCR is a world tour bike.
The look Jake was referring to has not been launched yet. The Time is defo premium. We didn’t mention that at all. And yes. Teenagers grow faster than they can wear out a bikes components.
@@dadonlees I think he was putting it forward as an idea. It’s a podcast. A friendly chat that we recorded for your enjoyment. It’s not a carefully scripted and edited review. That will come.
One thing for Giant is that they are ubiquitous. You can find a Giant TCR anywhere. If I had to recommend a bike to someone, the only four brands that I know they can find near them are Trek, Specialized, Cannondale and Giant. Unfortunately, this means that, for me, a benchmark bike has to come from one of those four, so Allez Sprint or Emonda ALR 5.
When I started racing I was on downtube shifters, when everybody else was using STI, didn't stop me winning and upgrading after 5 crits. I don't believe kids need disk brakes or Di2 to be competitive, find a good deal on used bike that fits well and save the money for down the road
@@MapdecI reckon they completely ruined the Defy. It was a nice gimmick free and comfortable endurance bike. But now it’s a race bike aimed at TCR riders and they’ve gone for that godawful cables through the stem crap - totally ruined shift feel and looks stupid. Guess I’ll keep my 2015 Defy after all…
My ‘cheap’ set-up is a Tarmac SL6 with Tiagra R4720, Roval C38 carbon wheels and Challenge Paris-Roubaix tires. Can’t really fault Tiagra, apart from it being 10-speed. But living in a flat country, that’s not a problem.
Nice video, i felt like you are reading my mind haha. I have a 2019 giant tcr advanced 2. Upgraded to ultegra group set and zipp 303s wheels. Question is where do I go next. I am thinking of getting another bike but I am struggling to decide whether to get an endurance bike or another race bike. I feel like my TCR is my race bike and get an endurance bike for those rides more than 100miles.
The latest Scultura 5000 will have 105 12 speed mechanical and should cost arround 2.5-2.6k in pounds looking at the euro/pound conversion rate. The old one has crazy deals at the moment. Costing less then your TCR "benchmark" with the old 11 speed mechanical Ultegra. I know for a fact that the wheels and hubs ain't landfall quality either. Obviously a set of carbon wheels will transform that bike. Also it's being raced professionally and succesfully. (Bahrain Victorious. And they still make stiff long aero bike. Which should get an upgrade in a year or 2.
Gents, I 💯 agree. I have found prices to have gone up too much. Hambini did a good review on a TCR. The BB area was not uniform. This would mean poor power transfer. It just never compares in feel to: Scott addict SL7 Cervelo Time Look In a 2021 TCR advanced I felt disappointed in how it felt lacklustre. The propel of 2018 felt far faster, but so much more harsh on the road feedback. Shimano are overdue an update, in Sora to Tiagra. Expect it to be like old 105, as new 105 is 12 speed. Sram red is expected to be lighter & nicer. I like the aesthetics of Force, but disappointed by its not as lightweight as I expected for a follow up. Sram is the only groupset that is like BMW, you can’t allows tell which series it is - when you have say AXS eTap dérailleurs. This in combination with how insignificant weight differences are means, you can buy a sram rival bike & just upgrade the chainset to gain the most difference (eg sram red). Everything is easily interchangeable. Seasons greetings & happy new year from Mearns Cycling Club! ❤
Wait. Are you talking about new Defy when you say it's ugly? Because if yes I must totally disagree. Previous Defy wasn't pretty but I think new Defy looks great.
The fact that some very well known UA-camr reviewers own the TCR says something about this bike. It’s raced regularly on the circuit and has the pedigree of years of development. It’s compared against the Tarmac favourably and is not some lower tier brand that you seem to be insinuating. The fact that Giant phoned you concerning your previous comments in my mind sets them apart from other brands in how they treat their customers. This is backed by their excellent warranty. It’s a shame that you’ve approached this topic like you have. Will watch with interest your future videos on other brands
No one said it was a poor bike. We are questioning its established position as an easy recommendation in grass roots racing category now that the prices have risen so much.
@@Mapdec ok, but I still think you need to review how you approach this subject as I really didn't seem to pick up positives on this. I feel Giant isn't overpriced, probably not as good value. But then look at how the Tarmac has risen to unaffordable prices.
@@MapdecI don’t believe the Giant have ever stated that the TCR is the benchmark bike for grassroots cyclists or riders; it’s just that they tended to be good value for money compared to other brands, get good reviews and feedback, and the TCR frame design helps more people adapt the position as they grow (in the case of youngsters) or sell the bike on. In addition , all bikes have become much more expensive over the years, some brands even more so than Giant, so to attack one brand or frame in the regard is a little unfair and perhaps petulant.
Totally agree with the op. I’ve had many Giant bikes and as they’ve been so good I’ll continue buying them. Yet every time I watch this channel and he mentions Giant it’s always in some over critical way! Implying that they’re not up to scratch compared to over brands! Really grinds my gears.
I don't agree with the characterisation of the 2023 Propel as an out-and-out aero bike. At the Advanced Pro level size M I think the difference between the TCR and Propel frameset is well under 200g. This is why there's a strong chance the 2024 TCR will be the same frameset again, as the Propel is now their racing platform. The TCR perhaps being defined as a more enthusiast level bike with easy maintainability and (relatively) good value for its weight.
Would be interesting for Hambini to compare the TCR ADV SL and the TCR ADV... I love my 2023 TCR ADV SL #savetherimbrake From the retail side Giant's warranty have always been top notch. I feel like the brand Giant doesn't give you a "special" feeling when owning one. Regardless of the RRP are Giants ever put in the same category as Pinarello, Spesh etc...
Cannondale needs to abandon ai offset, stop speccing horrid cannondale 1 cranks, and go back to full length seatstays. So basically just re-release the caad12 disc with a sane bb standard. Of course the wheels are still the value killer on the 13. Meh wheels with straight gauge spokes aren't the ticket to racers hearts.
The talk was fun to listen to, even though I tend to disagree. Remember when you were talking about the Propel as being a good entry-level bike for those who are starting out sometime this year in one of your videos? Well, I bought one, and it was everything you said about it. I even had it upgraded, and it has been fun riding it. I also have to mention the rant about the TCR reminds me of when Apple introduced the Apple wheels, and everyone was ranting about how expensive they were. But later, I learned that it was a marketing gimmick by Apple. Could this be a similar thing happening here? Because from the comments, I think quite a few people don't fully agree with your outlook on the TCR. It was fun, and I'm looking forward to more. I am currently stuck in the comments section, haha.
People should be able to buy a good bike that will make them happy for around £2000... I remember 12-13 years ago a thousand pounds were a lot of money for a carbon bike.
It is really reassuring to hear people talk which are highly gifted technicians, but didn't loose contact to the everyday reality of most people. You speak clearly about a situation many parents face: They have child who loves to ride and they want to give a bike as a present. For the money available to average families it's nearly impossible to find a good package. In the price range up to 2500€ (which is a lot) you find mostly cheating packages which cheap parts for bottom brackets or wheel sets. I enjoy your talks and presentation of high end bike, but please continue to stay advocates for the average man. This talk is an excellent format, entertainting, but full of interesting points.
Had a TCR advanced 1 2020. I'm 198cm tall und 95kg. The bike was the scariest I've ever ridden. The seatpost was terrifyingly flexing from side to side. I sidegraded for an entry level titanium bike and didn't ever look back. Keep up the great work!
If 'competitive' is the key word, I think the discussion just highlights that we need the UCI and British Cycling to step in and impose equipment rules, especially for juniors and amateurs, something along the lines of: • aluminium or steel only, no carbon frames • round frame tubes only • aluminium wheels only • external cable routing only • 10 (or 11?) speed mechanical only groupset • 11-12 kg minimum weight Approved bikes must available and in stock at retail prior to the season, with maximum retail prices along the lines of: • £800 - under 15s and cat 4 • £1500 - under 19s and cat 3 • £3000 - under 23s and cat 2 • €5000 - Continental series • €7500 - ProSeries and World Tour
Can you both get on the same page as to what, exactly, are the differences between advanced disc and advanced pro disc framesets? If the difference is truly just the steerer diameter, that's not going to turn a noodle into a race-stiff frame. It's your memory, not mine, but it sure sounds like the flex you're describing is a BB/seatpost/rear triangle characteristic, not a head tube/ steer one. You described a very flexy frame, so either they both have the same shit riding frame, your memory might be tainted by time (and a bit of bitter taste from the price and a bad wheelset?), or there truly is a significant difference between the two. Giant uses the same description for both frames. So I, as a consumer looking for a new bike, would love an official answer that isn't a guess. Right now neither of you seem to agree, and we're on video 3 without a definitive answer. Call Giant for us and let us know? I've seen a couple long term reviews which showed praise on the tcr advanced pro, including David Arthur, so I'm a bit concerned if they have the same frame... Fwiw while we're here, Peak Torque, in his SL review, calls the ISP too stiff, and recommends the advanced pro as a better, more comfortable, riding bike for typical roads, saying the SL is better suited for F1/car tracks. He's a big boy putting out big power, so if something is basically too stiff for him, it's too stiff for 99%, right? I'm 100% with you on the value lacking. 20% Inflation + greedflation has been REAL these past 3 years.Funny thing is, I see giant as the brand offering the most for the money, in this fucked timeline. You cannot get carbon frame, sub ~1500g carbon wheels ~40mm, dual (or even single) PM, and ultegra anything, for $4k or less anywhere but Giant, as far as I'm aware. If you can, tell us how we get those specs for that price. Canyon aeroad cf SL is close at $3.8k w/o pm, and with 1700g wheels, and likely about a pound heavier overall. The detuned sl6 with tiagra comes with pretty mundane wheels and no frills for $2500, the Emonda ALR gets you a 20+ pound package as well for $2,300 with 105, but still in need of a race wheelset and PM. The Allez sprint disc comp isn't going to get there at 3k with bad wheels, and the $1700 frame is overpriced by the cost of a 105 groupset. If the tcr advanced pro disc 1 didn't have hookless rims, I'd already have it on a 0% interest installment plan, let's put it that way. If I can get the same frame w/ 1.125" steerer, and 105 with crap wheels for $2,300? That's equal or better than the competition. Did the 2019 really come with carbon wheels for sub 2k? That seems unlikely. All hinges on whether or not the frames are noodles. Can you get a test ride on an advanced with decent wheels and report back? Oh, and FFS, which Look are you talking about at the end, because i dont see any builds under 5k on their website...
Good comment. It doesn’t help that the advanced frame also comes with quite flexy wheels. The frame is the same, only the fork and headset are different. I feel the flex on steep hills. Mostly out of the saddle type efforts. It’s not bad, but I would prefer if it felt more rigid like other bikes I’m used to. There is a new look that we are not allowed to speak about on its way. It’s not really comparable, but it looks very surprising for the price. Stay tuned.
Thanks for the reply and confirmation. I'm eagerly awaiting a follow-up in which y'all try to home in on the new benchmark. Don't be afraid to start with a frameset, either! Enough of us nerds watching your channel already have everything we need to build a bike in our garages. I respect your dedication and openness. As someone around your weight I can also appreciate the difference between a stiff and not so stiff rear end when out of the saddle. How about cannondale just puts the CAAD12 back into production with a bsa 68 or bb86? That'll do for me! You've well and truly scared me off the caad13 by this point.
Yeah. Possibly. A good upgrade for 90kg rider is a set of custom wheels. Speak to your LBS. I would build rear wheel with stiffer spokes and maybe a higher spoke count.
I enjoyed this convo and I like this MCW content. But I am getting a bit annoyed some cycling content. That CAM/Hambini Giant TCR content was completely pointless. Conclusion. Giant make good bike frames.
@Mapdec wireless shifters for easier bar/stem changes, too! Just a quick bleed of the brakes, and you're off! Far easier than pissing about with cables.
You guys have really good rapport! Well suited to this podcast malarkey. Do you think there's more of a market for 2nd hand bikes that have been professionally refurbished? There's certainly no shortage on the likes of Marketplace going for peanuts, but as you say you need a bit of expertise.
I own a 2023 TCR Advanced Disc 1 with Ultegra group set paid £2300 as the 2024 version was coming out so had a discount of £700. The bike ride is quite smooth and fast although the aluminium wheels let the bike down a little in terms of speed. The sizing of the Giant range is difficult to get right so I would recommend getting a bike fit. Some upgrades that would make the TCR bike significantly better would be carbon wheels with 28 or 30mm tires. Thicker handlebar and better quality bar tape. In terms of benchmark bike I would pick the Trek Emonda AL4 or 5 or maybe the Cude Attain GTC with 105 group set. Also Boardman SLR 8.8 for pure value for money.
If you grew up on the fabulous ride of the Caad 9 made is USA version, the Caad 10 and the Caad 12, the Caad 13 was a step in the wrong direction. They tried to make it look all aero like the Alez Sprint, but it just made it too harsh and the paintwork and welds is not as good as the models that made the CAAD name famous.
As a small business owner you could have a clue, that bike prices are not driven by UK inflation but rather by wages in China. We were stellar 30 years of cheap stuff mass produced in China but those days are gone now. We need to stop ranting about bike prices going up and accept that not everyone can afford mid range 8k bike just like not everyone can afford entry level sports car or 98 inch oled tv
What happened to the shimano group set to replace everything on the cheapend? I forget the name but it was called Eles or elves or ends of something similar . meant to replace all the lowend stuff with something compatible forgive the grammar
Just picked up the TCR with the 42mm carbon wheels and Wireless Rival for $3500 US. Moved over from a good aluminum frame. Literally everything about this frame is better than the aluminum. More power transfer, more comfortable, smoother, faster.
Got a giant tcr advanced 2 Rim brake version for £1500 then I put some hunt carbon wheels on it. I love it no issues at all . If I was going to buy another bike what bike would recommend ? With a budget of £4000 All this giant bashing is crazy I am a bit confused in my opinion giant bikes are good value for money All the bikes all are overpriced anyway my father is carbon engineer and been has working with carbon for over a decades Plus my friend owns a famous bike shop in central london so I know what the mark up is for the retail stores I love you channel keep up the fantastic work
I almost bought one in late 2020, but I figured only a small handful know the reason I dropped the thought, but it's definitely not because it's a Giant.
thanks for the chat...nice be be relatively short (and not too rambling) ....am already several steps above your benchmark conversation but would like to be able to recommend a benchmark to younger riders, and s I get older , I may well find myself climbing back down the ladder to lower tiers....
Great video. The Giant TCR isn't the benchmark bike anymore, but for me more important is that they are also falling to customers. I'm a TCR owner and had recently bad luck with my seatpost, it broke in a transportation. I called almost all Giant retailers in Berlin and reached also other stores in European cities and it seems that Giant will have them available again in April 2024. Seriously 5 months???? And it's a bike that I bought in 2021, the Giant TCR Advanced KOM model. I'm totally disappointed.
Emonda ALR with 105 appeals to me greatly. I think if you are talking about a benchmark also serving junior racing, with gearing requirements tiagra is not an issue anyway. 12t smallest cogs make sense in that situation and many 10 speed cassettes have that option. It's a bummer that $1500 once got you so much bike and now it seems to only get you an entry level road frameset. I have little interest in paying 4k for a bike even with a good wheelset. I'd like to see the big companies take better advantage of their scale and offer good rides for 2-3k on the high end, it doesn't seem impossible to me.
Never buy a Giant early in the year. They produce in such volume they always have excess left and come autumn prices are heavily reduced every year. 2018 I got the Defy SL, the last year they made it until 2024. Mechanical Ultegra, carbon wheels and carbon bars. Brand new it was reduced from about 3600 to 2300. Speedplay pedals and a Brooks Cambium but it only weighs 7.6kg. The price now for the new SL is £10k or so. Yes it is electronic. However, the relative price increases partly reflect costs but mostly the additional complicated parts that are now fitted, which cost more and more to service. The size of the costs do not reflect the improvement in performance, which is marginal at best.
Benchmark bike for someone to get into racing is still a rim brake bike with R7000 groupset. That's it. Light and fast. 2024 benchmark endurance bike is a modern disc brake bike with new 12-speed R7100 mech groupset.
The old alloy Defy (with dropped stays) was a blast to ride, I owned 2 of them (blue and yellow). You could easily get it below 7.2kg with Ultegra and some Mavic alloy wheels. It was crazy light at the time 🤯 because this was a Fred endurance staple. The only carbon component was the factory fork.
For reference my 2018 M/L TCR Advanced rim brake frame is 1110g bare (no bearings, seatpost clamp or water bottle bolts but includes internal cable routing guides and derailleur hangers) a bit heavier than expected. Maybe someone could weigh an Advanced Pro to see if there is any difference. I suspect that maybe the paint is a little lighter but that's about it. I have both alloy steerer and OS carbon forks so will be able to do a test and comparison of forks in same frame when I get the build done (about 140g weight difference between forks).
Why though? There should be bike for any price as long as someone buys it. Problem is not 15k bikes, problem is cyclists somehow think that they should be to afford any bike. Can everyone afford most expensive house, car, tv or etc?
@@vitskr1 Well, sure. But mostly I think these discussions are about mass produced carbon bikes popping out of molds rather than artisanal customs that could be of unlimited price. It takes R&D, labor etc of course but the large companies with the greatest ability (my interpretation) to serve this middle ground of entry level performance bikes seem to be instead stocking bikes that are equipped at the 3k+ range for 105 on their "lower tier" framesets.
This is a really weird complaint. Everything you are complaining about is true with other brands. Take Time for example, ADH21, ADH01, ADH 2023, ADHX, ADH45, ADHWTF with Dyneema and without damper. What is what I can't tell either. BMC SLR01, SLR, SLR02 One, SLR01 Five, SLR One 02. Specialized based model and mid range with nearly the same crappy wheelsets. I don't get the point of this video except "Giant" is not "sexy enough" even though they make very good bikes that rival or better the other name brands that they also produce for. I am guessing you are not a Giant AD? By the way Time ADH owner here.
Boardman road bikes are almost all great value bikes. The ADV range is excellent. There are so many bought on cycle to work there are fantastic bargains to be had on little used bikes, almost new condition. My winter bike is an ADV 8.6 upgraded to an 11spd hydraulic groupset from my previous bike. Cost me peanuts in all and is a great ride. The 8.9 is improved by way of thru axles and the 9.0 is a fantastic choice for ultra events.
Good rant or exchange ! On the affordable scale I have always found Merida to be good value,not sure what would be a benchmark now as the last bike I bought new was in 2012. A Merida Warp5 TT alloy with FSA & Shimano Ultegra, rim brakes. A Giant TCM yellow & black mtb hardtail I had mid 90s was a good bike.All of the Giant TCRs I tried flexed too much or had other issues.
I've never ridden one (nor serviced) and their QC may be questionable, but Canyons have always seemed like a very good valued bikes out of box. If I was on a tight budged, Id be definitely looking at one of AL ones..
How come we get whole bikes much cheaper in India but shimano and other part prices are 2-3x more costly compared to UK? For example we can get TCR Adv 3 for 1900 pounds but a shimano 105 7100 12 speed mechanical groupset costs 800 pounds here in India. For 850 you can get 105 di2 in UK 😮😮😮
Id say the Trek Emonda AL5 Disc is _'almost'_ perfect. 105 R7000. The real thing that lets the bike down are the Bontrager Paradigm SL wheels which are pretty heavy. A 31-38mm aluminium or carbon set of hoops would have made it an absolute no brainer. Trek even calls the Emonda AL5 a 'race-ready road bike' - I mean you could race on an old 60s or 70s vintage Peugeot but that doesnt make it the idea candidate for it (unless it was a vintage race) Looking around a bit more. The Specialized Allez Sprint Comp gets my vote. Comes with DT Swiss R470 rims. Although it is significantly more expensive than the AL5 but its a definitely a bike I could just pick up and race. Still shallow at 23mm but 530g lighter than the Paradigm SL's ::EDIT:: Also no way am i calling the Allez Sprint great or even good value. I think its terrible value for money. The AL5 would be a better choice if you had a set of carbon wheels ready to go or ready to purchase. The difference is about £700-800 between the bikes and thats £700-800 you could spend on wheels if you take the AL5. The Bontrager's you could probably flog them on ebay for £150-200??
Rose XLite04 can be good value for money, the 105 di2 is currently missing from the shop. The mechanical ultegra (2x11) is currently selling for 2900€, at 7.8 kg this seems good.
It really feels like 105 mechanical carbon and disc brake has become a terrible deal. I can get a Rose Pro SL (an alloy frame, but a very nice one) with 105 and rim brakes for 1100 EUR right now. I've had one for a few years and it's absolutely brilliant. Meanwhile if you want carbon and disc brakes you're looking at close to 3k and the wheels and finishing kit will be equal or worse. Maybe it's all a decoy effect play in order to sell more 105/Ultegra Di2 carbon-wheeled bikes for 4-5k which honestly feels like a way better deal.
If it's a matter of bang for buck entry level bike worth racing then I say definitely go aluminum. 2023 Emonda ALR is a very overlooked bike and even has clever internal cable routing on an aluminum frame. Any American crit rider has taken a close look at the Allez Sprint if they don't already have one. Personally I recently added a CAAD10 to my stable and I'm impressed with how it holds up to my other top spec carbon bikes, although there is a weight difference - It's not the same but it's a good ride.
I was going to buy it for almost 3000€ this year but realized I don’t want to pay more than I believe it should cost. So I ended up spending more but for a bike that genuinely costed more
Lost a lot of integrity with this one. Propel sl is 6.9kg and comes with the best 'stock wheels' and finishing kit you could hope for. Final straw was mentioning Look as a benchmark bike 😅. Not sure how you're flexing your tcr. I'm only slightly lighter and considerably more powerful than you and mine doesnt flex
You haven’t seen the LOOK Jake mentioned. It’s not a benchmark, but it’s going to raise some eyebrows. Flex a tcr easily. Get on a 20% hill and give it some beans.
@@Mapdec I know you like these look and time bikes, but they are niche brands. Judging by most comments on here, A lot of people disagree with your assessment. Not many 20% hill near me, but I max out over 1700w and don't notice any flex with winspace wheels
Good dialogue guys, lots of good input from Jake, which is nice to see from a young guy who's just getting started in the business. I can see why you've let him do some videos on his own.
I doubt the TCR would get updated soon. The development priority is on the Propel world tour bike. Giant will only keep the TCR alive as legacy product line. Similar to the Specialized Allez. Since the TCR is the race bike that made Giant known worldwide.
Trek with a rear entry hole!!! Best sound bite from that. With the prices the way they are the bench mark should be a second hand, two your old bike with ultegra. You're going to get a great bike cheap with a great group set and can upgrade when need to at a good price even if you take to lbs to do the work
I still ride my bike which I bought in 2018. That is a Btwin - before it was called a van rysel. With a mavic wheelset and a complete ultegra groupset. I don't remember exactly how much it cost, but I think it was around €1200
Can we talk about the fact that the current TCR is pretty much the only mainstream race bike with a traditional stem/bar combo and normal cable routing? And it scores very good stiffness scores in the real benchmark lab test from "Tour Magazin " compared to all other mainstream brands!? I think classic cable routing is a very good feature for an amateur with the ability to change bars and stems super easily. All objective lab tests with a TCR are pretty good, and the price is still competitive despite your questionable analysis. So for me the TCR is still an obvious choice as a benchmark
All my road bikes are TCRs :). I am 6' 5" and I weight 186lb. My favorite is the 6th gen TCR and I do find gen 8 and 9 a bit flexy and overpriced framesets. The specs are only stating weight to stiffness ratio, but it is deceiving, because 6th gen is heavier but overall it is much stiffer. TCR is an awesome for its value but the new 2023 frameset is 4400 USD. Instead of paying 4400 bucks for Toyota TCR, I will buy Rolls-Royce Alpe D'huez for 6K.
@travelersimports6915 I don't know what Tour Magazin you read, but N/mm or N/° are not weight related to me. But I agree with the other points! Although recently Tour Magazin testet a new Time ADHX frame and the lab test results were not very impressive. I am the first one to admit that lab test results with a sample size of one have probably limited meaning when it comes to the actual ride feel, but it is the best we got. No one else publishes objective lab test data. Everything else is based on: " oh it feels so stiff "
Famous TCR quote: the one that is lighter than me, not as stiff. The one that is stiffer than me, not as light. Giant seems don't really like the 1 piece combo idea. Even flagship propel come with 2 piece which I love. My local dealer even allow the buyer to custom stem and handlebar now when getting frameset only.
@@MS-bw7yt Haha. I agree there is some level of bro science in those reviews. Thank you for the info, I will do more research and rent for a day before ordering it in 2024. I skipped 2021, 22 and 23. I am going for Rolls Royce, this time :) P.S. Thru-Axle is stiffer. JK
Don't forget with all the external cables it still beats a Canyon ultimate in an aero test.
Still tough to beat the Giant TCR value. I recently got the Di2 105 12 speed with carbon wheels for US$3,500. What bike is a better value with electronic shifting and carbon wheels?
Just today, I got a TCR advanced with DI2 105 12 speed with stock alu wheels for 2500 euro. Even if I throw in another 1500 for very good charbon wheels, it's still cheaper than most if not all of what other brands can deliver. About 8-9 years ago, Canyon had a (admitted, Ultegra) DI2 rim brake bike for 2800 euro with low Mavic wheels. Now you get a 105 DI2 disc brake bike for 2500 euro with (rubbish) Giant wheels. So even with all the inflation, prices haven't really gone up, but the current Giant deals are not going to last for long, this isn't their 'normal' price so enjoy while you can.
@@l.d.t.6327great deal! Same prices for the sale in the Netherlands right now. Limited time though.
Rim brake TCR Advanced Pro is going for $1800 in the US. Comes with 105. Ready to race out the door - upgrade as necessary. Disc brake is $400 more. Can't be beat.
Perfect timing. I'm planning to buy that bike tomorrow. Trying to figure out wheel upgrade.
Just ordered recently and picking it up from the shop soon.
@@acemodean Great buy!
@@memcore1312 happy riding
They're so nearly race ready, but those pr2 wheels are really bad. Can you race on them, yes. Does that make them "race ready"? No. Giant needs to offer the same builds with better wheels. Right now there's a $1500 jump to get a budget race wheelset, the slr2, that would retail in the $700-$900 range. That's the major value loss right there.
Could you please tell me what the difference between an Advanced grade carbon fork and an Advanced SL grade carbon fork would likely be in terms of rider comfort, stiffness, weight etc.? Basically, the only thing you couldn't change or upgrade over time between the Advanced and Pro models on the Giant lineup. Regarding their naming conventions, I dont see what difference there is in their finishing kit between DFuse SL on their Pro models and DFuse SLR on their SL models. Very confusing. Cheers!
The Pro and SL use the overdrive fork. A 1.5” steerer that considerably stiffens the front end. I don’t know why only Giant need a bigger steerer and stem to achieve this. The standard advanced suffers from torsional flex and feels very soggy when you are breaking and turning into a corner, or out of the saddle on a steep surge or a hill.
@@Mapdec Thanks for the reply! Is that ALL Advanced models across the range and years, including the 2024's? Hard to know what all the differences are between models in their lineup. I wonder where the new Defy leaves the TCR. Seems there is now a gap between the Defy and Revolt I suppose.
Giant is still bang for buck in the Netherlands right now. A TCR Advanced with 105 Di2 for 2499€ is a bargain. With a set a carbon wheels from Giant for 2899€ 😅.
Where? :)
Bought a new TCR 20 years ago when it first came out. Alu frame, carbon blade forks and carbon Burrows seat post, Ultegra group set. Best value for money bike I’ve ever had. When looking at ‘value for money’ you need to compare warranties as well.
Ok, We know you hate Giant. Give us an option for Giant TCR Advanced Pro 1. Ultegra with very good below 1500g wheelset, with dual sided power meter for 3.8k (EUR), retailing around 3.4k. I would like to know what you suggest.
Well that bike in the UK is £4599 and for that y could custom build the same bike for cheaper. You can get a LOOK 785 with rival eTap for the same price.
@@Mapdecleave dumbass Brexit and maybe you'll have rest of the world pricing
Rival etap or ultegra…. Hmmm
There seems to be quite some price and availability discrepancies across Europe.
@Mapdec
The Giant bike would in Denmark normally cost around €4200. The 2023 model is on sale for around €3500 - though not that many left in stock it seems. I would definitely not be able to build a similar custom bike in Denmark for even the normal selling price of the Giant
The Look 785 doesn't seem to be available anywhere in Denmark. I would have to buy it mailorder in Germany. Not a huge fan of buying a bike online - but I agree that the specs for the bike look (pun intended) interesting for the price.
I still think I would have to look quite a bit to find a better bargain than then Giant TCR Advanced Pro 1 here in Denmark
@@Mapdec£3699 on their website at the moment unless I got the model wrong.
Currently Giants can be bought 30-40% off the retail price so mid spec is 2000-2500 gbp. That in context is a fair price for the bike.
hell yeah
the shade towards giant is always a little surprising to me. I get that they're not the "sexy" brand but the performance per dollar is obviously still there, at least in US dollars.
That’s the thing we are questioning. Usually Giant is the go to for value, but we struggle to see it these days.
Honestly, a good benchmark would be the Merida Reacto low tier series. Incredible value and readily upgradeable
How many tiers are there for reacto? Never look into merida.
2 different frames 3 vs 5
This entire conversation needs a big caveat on what market you're talking about. In Australia and NZ for example giant bicycles are much lower cost. While other brands are the same as your UK prices. Giants are like 30-40% cheaper here in Australia
whats a merida scultura 6000 worth in the UK? seems like a pretty good platform. 105 DI2. 4k Australian pesos.
The industry spent the last five years evangelizing electronic groupsets, the years prior cheapifying carbon frames to sell all cyclists on them, and recently decided carbon cockpits and storage bays in oversized tubing are essential features. Bike designers are bored and tasked with making do it all machines while they are met with shrugs and shock at asking prices that consumers respond with “for a bike?” The social media fueled diminution of mechanical put them in a bind. Many now make frames that cannot take cable routing. They abandoned that segment and that segment says no right back at them.
I purchased a 2020 tcr with 105 groupset in 2021 as a stock clearance from a bikeshop. £1400 love it. Only bits ive changed are carbon wheelset 38mm. The only bits i want to change are handlebars (seem to thin and uncomfortable). And charge spoon saddle ive got ready to fit.
Rumors are that Sora, Claris, & Tiagra are to become Cues for drop bars. Further guessing like the flat bar Cues, there will be multiple gearing options.10sp and 11sp at least?
Perhaps that will reinforce 105 as the recommended sweet spot group or maybe Road Cues will look good and offer undeniable value?
I enjoy the honesty, much better and more informative than sponsored videos.
I think Van Rysell are going to surprise everyone. And the range starts at prices and specs that could be the new benchmarks at a number of levels.
It looks like you could be right. Reputation isn’t built in a season though. It looked like Ribble, Dolan, and Orro all had a shot and didn’t make it stick.
Yep, the Van Rysel EDR are solid options, starting a bit over 2000€ for carbon frame, 105 groupset and a set of Fulcrum alu wheels that I guess are decent. The Ultegra version is around 2700€ with carbon wheels. Still available in both rim and disc brakes, even though I think it's going to be replaced soon and become discs only as it is Van Rysel oldest plateform.
Ah-A. Here it comes!
Don't give mega chains like Decathlon your $. The reason their bikes are as cheap as they are comes down to their business model. Give the big ticket item away at a scrape above cost and make the profit on all the accessories you'll buy to go along with it. Bottles, cages, pump, kit etc. All garbage tier (but a few pennies cheaper than a proper one) with a huge profit margin. The bike will be assembled by a kid who doesn't have a clue which will lead you to spending a bunch of $ on parts and servicing as it all inevitably falls apart, creaks or rattles.
Support the local bike shop that supports your local cycling scene.
Absolutely, support the local bike shop instead of the monster international one; Yes.@@KD_cycling
The issue here is Giant’s pricing in the UK & the perception of some people that Giant is supposed to be ‘cheap’. In where I live, the 105 tcr is far less than the UK’s Tiagra version.
Now into the cheap vs expensive territory, that money is supposed to go to R&D. I trust Giant’s R&D far more than some overpriced newcomers (or snobbish old brands that rely on BS marketing). Their wheels are also very good quality wise. They just don’t bear fancy / unique brand names.
By what performance metric is Dura ace a level below sram red and super record?
Weight and price, admittedly SRAM Red needs an update to retain that supremacy. The shifting performance these days is negligible
With new bike prices doubling in many cases inside about 3 years my money would be spent on a little used second hand bike from the Covid lockdown days👍
When you see some have only done a few hundred miles and in the case of rim braked bikes are often a quarter of the pre telephone number prices - what's not to love about preloved??
Yes, if you can afford the current prices buy new and support the struggling cycle industry, god knows it needs it right now😬
Great podcast, much like your videos, not afraid to air your opinions - good or bad🙏
What's wrong with CAAD13 besides looks and breaking away from traditional caad geometry? Is it too heavy? Not stiff enough?
It’s probably too stiff to be fair. It’s quite a noisey and erratic ride. Also the welds look terrible. Caad 4 still my fave.
Interesting. I never thought the caad13 would be called too stiff, since many complained it gave up the rigidity for compliance. I thought the caad13 was way more comfortable than my titanium and allez, granted those bikes back were back from around 2010.
I had a CAAD13 before it was replaced under warranty and compared to the CAAD12 I also had, there was definitely a different ride. If anything the CAAD13 felt a little more comfy, a bit larger (despite being the same general size) and a little bit less sharp than the 12. I probably wouldn't have raced the 13, but I would and have raced the 12. But the 13 was probably a better one to choose for all day rides.
What happened that caused you to warranty it?
Thanks for your feedback. I do hear that quite a bit that the caad12 is just a little sharper than caad13. All I can say is that it delivers power a lot better than my older bikes and I don't feel as beat up bumpy roads even on stock wheels. Looking forward to replace stock wheels with something better so the ride is more lively
So the paint started bubbling around the down tube cable port. Then there was more bubbling paint under the top tube. There was no quibbling from the shop (kudos to SigmaSports!) or Cannondale, but the only downside was I had to wait 12 months for a replacement frame! My CAAD 12 is similarly getting a little flakey paint round the cable ports also, but that's a few years older. Had a few frames now with defective finishes - Orbea, Cannondale, Rockrider.....
I had SRAM Etap fitted to the CAAD13 so there were no cables to potentially rattle about in the downtube and no faffing with the internal routing other than brake hose. Was my first choice for a big day out but I've moved on since 😉🤦🤣
There’s absolutely no justification for a doubling in price after 3 years. The amount of cope in the comments section is crazy. Almost everyone is getting ripped off and I can guarantee you that none of you would pay these prices for a bike if you bought in the cash which many don’t as the UK has several 0% finance options which dilutes the purchase day outlay
Lots of components at crazy sale prices atm after Wiggle collapse...
Just built up a Ridley Noah SL with 105 11 speed mechanical and rim brakes, Vision wheels, Deda cockpit and Prologo saddle for just over 1,500 uk pounds. All new old stock...👍
I picked up a TCR Advanced PRO 0 with Ultegra 12 speed DI2 for $3150 Its the 2022 Amber Glow color which I like. I sent the left crank arm to 4iiii for a power meter. Tell me of a better deal out there?
The UK pricing is different. Giant charges the Brits a premium.
Love your honest sit down conversations. If the Giant folks get ruffled....oh well. You have poked Cannondale in the past and I have a Cannondale SSE. It is what it is. The cost of all things have gone insane due to supply. Maybe one day it will stabilize again.
"When you outgrow a Giant TCR..."? Puzzling to me to say you're getting much by swapping components from a TCR to a Look/Time. The TCR is a world tour bike.
The look Jake was referring to has not been launched yet. The Time is defo premium. We didn’t mention that at all. And yes. Teenagers grow faster than they can wear out a bikes components.
@@Mapdec So Jake was recommending a bike which has not been released, and have not ridden?
@@dadonlees I think he was putting it forward as an idea. It’s a podcast. A friendly chat that we recorded for your enjoyment. It’s not a carefully scripted and edited review. That will come.
@@dadonleesshills !
One thing for Giant is that they are ubiquitous. You can find a Giant TCR anywhere. If I had to recommend a bike to someone, the only four brands that I know they can find near them are Trek, Specialized, Cannondale and Giant. Unfortunately, this means that, for me, a benchmark bike has to come from one of those four, so Allez Sprint or Emonda ALR 5.
When I started racing I was on downtube shifters, when everybody else was using STI, didn't stop me winning and upgrading after 5 crits. I don't believe kids need disk brakes or Di2 to be competitive, find a good deal on used bike that fits well and save the money for down the road
The new defy looks brilliant, especially for an endurance frame. Surely your on about the old model?!
For me the proportions are wonky, and the lines don’t really flow. Nice paint work though. It’s personal thing.
@@MapdecI reckon they completely ruined the Defy. It was a nice gimmick free and comfortable endurance bike.
But now it’s a race bike aimed at TCR riders and they’ve gone for that godawful cables through the stem crap - totally ruined shift feel and looks stupid.
Guess I’ll keep my 2015 Defy after all…
My ‘cheap’ set-up is a Tarmac SL6 with Tiagra R4720, Roval C38 carbon wheels and Challenge Paris-Roubaix tires. Can’t really fault Tiagra, apart from it being 10-speed. But living in a flat country, that’s not a problem.
Nice video, i felt like you are reading my mind haha. I have a 2019 giant tcr advanced 2. Upgraded to ultegra group set and zipp 303s wheels. Question is where do I go next. I am thinking of getting another bike but I am struggling to decide whether to get an endurance bike or another race bike. I feel like my TCR is my race bike and get an endurance bike for those rides more than 100miles.
TCR advanced SL frameset
Merida Scultura. But I understand you dont see many around.
It’s weird. We really don’t.
The latest Scultura 5000 will have 105 12 speed mechanical and should cost arround 2.5-2.6k in pounds looking at the euro/pound conversion rate.
The old one has crazy deals at the moment. Costing less then your TCR "benchmark" with the old 11 speed mechanical Ultegra. I know for a fact that the wheels and hubs ain't landfall quality either.
Obviously a set of carbon wheels will transform that bike.
Also it's being raced professionally and succesfully. (Bahrain Victorious.
And they still make stiff long aero bike. Which should get an upgrade in a year or 2.
Gents, I 💯 agree.
I have found prices to have gone up too much. Hambini did a good review on a TCR. The BB area was not uniform. This would mean poor power transfer. It just never compares in feel to:
Scott addict
SL7
Cervelo
Time
Look
In a 2021 TCR advanced I felt disappointed in how it felt lacklustre. The propel of 2018 felt far faster, but so much more harsh on the road feedback.
Shimano are overdue an update, in Sora to Tiagra. Expect it to be like old 105, as new 105 is 12 speed.
Sram red is expected to be lighter & nicer. I like the aesthetics of Force, but disappointed by its not as lightweight as I expected for a follow up.
Sram is the only groupset that is like BMW, you can’t allows tell which series it is - when you have say AXS eTap dérailleurs. This in combination with how insignificant weight differences are means, you can buy a sram rival bike & just upgrade the chainset to gain the most difference (eg sram red). Everything is easily interchangeable.
Seasons greetings & happy new year from Mearns Cycling Club! ❤
Wait. Are you talking about new Defy when you say it's ugly? Because if yes I must totally disagree. Previous Defy wasn't pretty but I think new Defy looks great.
Trouble is my 2014 TCR is lighter than the new ones
The fact that some very well known UA-camr reviewers own the TCR says something about this bike. It’s raced regularly on the circuit and has the pedigree of years of development. It’s compared against the Tarmac favourably and is not some lower tier brand that you seem to be insinuating. The fact that Giant phoned you concerning your previous comments in my mind sets them apart from other brands in how they treat their customers. This is backed by their excellent warranty. It’s a shame that you’ve approached this topic like you have. Will watch with interest your future videos on other brands
No one said it was a poor bike. We are questioning its established position as an easy recommendation in grass roots racing category now that the prices have risen so much.
@@Mapdec ok, but I still think you need to review how you approach this subject as I really didn't seem to pick up positives on this. I feel Giant isn't overpriced, probably not as good value. But then look at how the Tarmac has risen to unaffordable prices.
@@MapdecI don’t believe the Giant have ever stated that the TCR is the benchmark bike for grassroots cyclists or riders; it’s just that they tended to be good value for money compared to other brands, get good reviews and feedback, and the TCR frame design helps more people adapt the position as they grow (in the case of youngsters) or sell the bike on.
In addition , all bikes have become much more expensive over the years, some brands even more so than Giant, so to attack one brand or frame in the regard is a little unfair and perhaps petulant.
Totally agree with the op. I’ve had many Giant bikes and as they’ve been so good I’ll continue buying them. Yet every time I watch this channel and he mentions Giant it’s always in some over critical way! Implying that they’re not up to scratch compared to over brands! Really grinds my gears.
Specialized Allez with 105 group set?
I absolutely love the look of the new defy and would love one 😮
Fair enough.
I’ve got a 2020 Defy, hate the look and much prefer the new one.
I don't agree with the characterisation of the 2023 Propel as an out-and-out aero bike. At the Advanced Pro level size M I think the difference between the TCR and Propel frameset is well under 200g. This is why there's a strong chance the 2024 TCR will be the same frameset again, as the Propel is now their racing platform. The TCR perhaps being defined as a more enthusiast level bike with easy maintainability and (relatively) good value for its weight.
Would be interesting for Hambini to compare the TCR ADV SL and the TCR ADV... I love my 2023 TCR ADV SL #savetherimbrake From the retail side Giant's warranty have always been top notch. I feel like the brand Giant doesn't give you a "special" feeling when owning one. Regardless of the RRP are Giants ever put in the same category as Pinarello, Spesh etc...
Hopefully, Cannondale come with a CAAD 14 with 105. If priced right, could be the benchmark bike. I Love my CAAD 12 105.
Cannondale needs to abandon ai offset, stop speccing horrid cannondale 1 cranks, and go back to full length seatstays.
So basically just re-release the caad12 disc with a sane bb standard.
Of course the wheels are still the value killer on the 13. Meh wheels with straight gauge spokes aren't the ticket to racers hearts.
Right now in the US, advanced pro 2 with 105 is 1800+ a free helmet. Can you suggest a good rim brake compatible wheelset upgrade? Thank you.
To be honest rim brake wheels are a tough shout. Maybe the Reynolds. Depends how steep your hills are for braking heat
The talk was fun to listen to, even though I tend to disagree. Remember when you were talking about the Propel as being a good entry-level bike for those who are starting out sometime this year in one of your videos? Well, I bought one, and it was everything you said about it. I even had it upgraded, and it has been fun riding it. I also have to mention the rant about the TCR reminds me of when Apple introduced the Apple wheels, and everyone was ranting about how expensive they were. But later, I learned that it was a marketing gimmick by Apple. Could this be a similar thing happening here? Because from the comments, I think quite a few people don't fully agree with your outlook on the TCR. It was fun, and I'm looking forward to more. I am currently stuck in the comments section, haha.
105 is definitely the groupset of the people.
So very much well said!
People should be able to buy a good bike that will make them happy for around £2000... I remember 12-13 years ago a thousand pounds were a lot of money for a carbon bike.
It is really reassuring to hear people talk which are highly gifted technicians, but didn't loose contact to the everyday reality of most people. You speak clearly about a situation many parents face: They have child who loves to ride and they want to give a bike as a present. For the money available to average families it's nearly impossible to find a good package. In the price range up to 2500€ (which is a lot) you find mostly cheating packages which cheap parts for bottom brackets or wheel sets. I enjoy your talks and presentation of high end bike, but please continue to stay advocates for the average man. This talk is an excellent format, entertainting, but full of interesting points.
Had a TCR advanced 1 2020. I'm 198cm tall und 95kg.
The bike was the scariest I've ever ridden. The seatpost was terrifyingly flexing from side to side. I sidegraded for an entry level titanium bike and didn't ever look back.
Keep up the great work!
If 'competitive' is the key word, I think the discussion just highlights that we need the UCI and British Cycling to step in and impose equipment rules, especially for juniors and amateurs, something along the lines of:
• aluminium or steel only, no carbon frames
• round frame tubes only
• aluminium wheels only
• external cable routing only
• 10 (or 11?) speed mechanical only groupset
• 11-12 kg minimum weight
Approved bikes must available and in stock at retail prior to the season, with maximum retail prices along the lines of:
• £800 - under 15s and cat 4
• £1500 - under 19s and cat 3
• £3000 - under 23s and cat 2
• €5000 - Continental series
• €7500 - ProSeries and World Tour
I think we will discuss this comment in the next podcast. Thank you.
I'd go with an Merida Scultura 5000
I haven’t seen many, but look good on paper
Can you both get on the same page as to what, exactly, are the differences between advanced disc and advanced pro disc framesets? If the difference is truly just the steerer diameter, that's not going to turn a noodle into a race-stiff frame. It's your memory, not mine, but it sure sounds like the flex you're describing is a BB/seatpost/rear triangle characteristic, not a head tube/ steer one. You described a very flexy frame, so either they both have the same shit riding frame, your memory might be tainted by time (and a bit of bitter taste from the price and a bad wheelset?), or there truly is a significant difference between the two. Giant uses the same description for both frames. So I, as a consumer looking for a new bike, would love an official answer that isn't a guess. Right now neither of you seem to agree, and we're on video 3 without a definitive answer. Call Giant for us and let us know?
I've seen a couple long term reviews which showed praise on the tcr advanced pro, including David Arthur, so I'm a bit concerned if they have the same frame...
Fwiw while we're here, Peak Torque, in his SL review, calls the ISP too stiff, and recommends the advanced pro as a better, more comfortable, riding bike for typical roads, saying the SL is better suited for F1/car tracks. He's a big boy putting out big power, so if something is basically too stiff for him, it's too stiff for 99%, right?
I'm 100% with you on the value lacking. 20% Inflation + greedflation has been REAL these past 3 years.Funny thing is, I see giant as the brand offering the most for the money, in this fucked timeline. You cannot get carbon frame, sub ~1500g carbon wheels ~40mm, dual (or even single) PM, and ultegra anything, for $4k or less anywhere but Giant, as far as I'm aware. If you can, tell us how we get those specs for that price.
Canyon aeroad cf SL is close at $3.8k w/o pm, and with 1700g wheels, and likely about a pound heavier overall. The detuned sl6 with tiagra comes with pretty mundane wheels and no frills for $2500, the Emonda ALR gets you a 20+ pound package as well for $2,300 with 105, but still in need of a race wheelset and PM. The Allez sprint disc comp isn't going to get there at 3k with bad wheels, and the $1700 frame is overpriced by the cost of a 105 groupset.
If the tcr advanced pro disc 1 didn't have hookless rims, I'd already have it on a 0% interest installment plan, let's put it that way. If I can get the same frame w/ 1.125" steerer, and 105 with crap wheels for $2,300? That's equal or better than the competition. Did the 2019 really come with carbon wheels for sub 2k? That seems unlikely.
All hinges on whether or not the frames are noodles. Can you get a test ride on an advanced with decent wheels and report back?
Oh, and FFS, which Look are you talking about at the end, because i dont see any builds under 5k on their website...
Good comment. It doesn’t help that the advanced frame also comes with quite flexy wheels. The frame is the same, only the fork and headset are different. I feel the flex on steep hills. Mostly out of the saddle type efforts. It’s not bad, but I would prefer if it felt more rigid like other bikes I’m used to.
There is a new look that we are not allowed to speak about on its way. It’s not really comparable, but it looks very surprising for the price. Stay tuned.
Thanks for the reply and confirmation. I'm eagerly awaiting a follow-up in which y'all try to home in on the new benchmark. Don't be afraid to start with a frameset, either! Enough of us nerds watching your channel already have everything we need to build a bike in our garages.
I respect your dedication and openness. As someone around your weight I can also appreciate the difference between a stiff and not so stiff rear end when out of the saddle.
How about cannondale just puts the CAAD12 back into production with a bsa 68 or bb86? That'll do for me! You've well and truly scared me off the caad13 by this point.
So as a 90kg rider is there any point in me uprgrading from an emonda alr to to an entry carbon frame as ill find it too flexy?
Yeah. Possibly. A good upgrade for 90kg rider is a set of custom wheels. Speak to your LBS. I would build rear wheel with stiffer spokes and maybe a higher spoke count.
The frameset is £1800 for the advanced pro model. Much better value than everything else on the market right now for frameset only
Don't know about the UK prices, but the newest frames here in the US dropped $250 from last year. A sign of things to come, I hope.
I enjoyed this convo and I like this MCW content. But I am getting a bit annoyed some cycling content. That CAM/Hambini Giant TCR content was completely pointless. Conclusion. Giant make good bike frames.
Cube Agree C:62, 105 di2 for £3k. That can't be far off benchmark worthy.
It’s in with a shout.
@Mapdec wireless shifters for easier bar/stem changes, too! Just a quick bleed of the brakes, and you're off! Far easier than pissing about with cables.
You guys have really good rapport! Well suited to this podcast malarkey. Do you think there's more of a market for 2nd hand bikes that have been professionally refurbished? There's certainly no shortage on the likes of Marketplace going for peanuts, but as you say you need a bit of expertise.
2nd hard market is very appealing right now. I think it would be hard to find a profit it refurbishing them and holding items in stock
I own a 2023 TCR Advanced Disc 1 with Ultegra group set paid £2300 as the 2024 version was coming out so had a discount of £700. The bike ride is quite smooth and fast although the aluminium wheels let the bike down a little in terms of speed. The sizing of the Giant range is difficult to get right so I would recommend getting a bike fit. Some upgrades that would make the TCR bike significantly better would be carbon wheels with 28 or 30mm tires. Thicker handlebar and better quality bar tape. In terms of benchmark bike I would pick the Trek Emonda AL4 or 5 or maybe the Cude Attain GTC with 105 group set. Also Boardman SLR 8.8 for pure value for money.
CANYON offers excellent value-for-money bikes. 😎💯👍
Giant naming is bad... compared to what? The different tiers within a model are differentiated by numbers, what could be more simple.
Great chat guys, would love to see more of them.- can you qualify your comments about the CAAD 13, all the reports when it launched rated it highly?
If you grew up on the fabulous ride of the Caad 9 made is USA version, the Caad 10 and the Caad 12, the Caad 13 was a step in the wrong direction. They tried to make it look all aero like the Alez Sprint, but it just made it too harsh and the paintwork and welds is not as good as the models that made the CAAD name famous.
As a small business owner you could have a clue, that bike prices are not driven by UK inflation but rather by wages in China. We were stellar 30 years of cheap stuff mass produced in China but those days are gone now. We need to stop ranting about bike prices going up and accept that not everyone can afford mid range 8k bike just like not everyone can afford entry level sports car or 98 inch oled tv
Very true.
Quality second hand rim brake bikes 🇬🇧👍🏻
The best are the older Specialized Tarmacs with rim brakes, if you know you know
What happened to the shimano group set to replace everything on the cheapend? I forget the name but it was called Eles or elves or ends of something similar . meant to replace all the lowend stuff with something compatible forgive the grammar
We are still waiting for Shimano to announce Road CUES
Just picked up the TCR with the 42mm carbon wheels and Wireless Rival for $3500 US. Moved over from a good aluminum frame. Literally everything about this frame is better than the aluminum. More power transfer, more comfortable, smoother, faster.
Got a giant tcr advanced 2 Rim brake version for £1500 then I put some hunt carbon wheels on it. I love it no issues at all .
If I was going to buy another bike what bike would recommend ? With a budget of £4000
All this giant bashing is crazy I am a bit confused in my opinion giant bikes are good value for money
All the bikes all are overpriced anyway
my father is carbon engineer and been has working with carbon for over a decades
Plus my friend owns a famous bike shop in central london so I know what the mark up is for the retail stores
I love you channel keep up the fantastic work
‘Another bike’ isn’t really enough info to say. Give us a call if we can build something for you
@@Mapdec excellent
I almost bought one in late 2020, but I figured only a small handful know the reason I dropped the thought, but it's definitely not because it's a Giant.
thanks for the chat...nice be be relatively short (and not too rambling) ....am already several steps above your benchmark conversation but would like to be able to recommend a benchmark to younger riders, and s I get older , I may well find myself climbing back down the ladder to lower tiers....
Like this keep it up find the bike around the 2k and the 3k keep going up ??
Oh. That’s a nice idea.
The new propel is actually a lightweight aero bike. It’s what Jayco have been riding.
Great video. The Giant TCR isn't the benchmark bike anymore, but for me more important is that they are also falling to customers. I'm a TCR owner and had recently bad luck with my seatpost, it broke in a transportation. I called almost all Giant retailers in Berlin and reached also other stores in European cities and it seems that Giant will have them available again in April 2024. Seriously 5 months???? And it's a bike that I bought in 2021, the Giant TCR Advanced KOM model. I'm totally disappointed.
You can get it online, eBay and such for a $150 new.
The TCR is a nice bike. If you like one just buy it. Life is too short.
Emonda ALR with 105 appeals to me greatly. I think if you are talking about a benchmark also serving junior racing, with gearing requirements tiagra is not an issue anyway. 12t smallest cogs make sense in that situation and many 10 speed cassettes have that option.
It's a bummer that $1500 once got you so much bike and now it seems to only get you an entry level road frameset. I have little interest in paying 4k for a bike even with a good wheelset. I'd like to see the big companies take better advantage of their scale and offer good rides for 2-3k on the high end, it doesn't seem impossible to me.
Yes but maybe with an upgraded set of wheels than what they offer on alr 5. That's what I did.
Never buy a Giant early in the year. They produce in such volume they always have excess left and come autumn prices are heavily reduced every year. 2018 I got the Defy SL, the last year they made it until 2024. Mechanical Ultegra, carbon wheels and carbon bars. Brand new it was reduced from about 3600 to 2300. Speedplay pedals and a Brooks Cambium but it only weighs 7.6kg. The price now for the new SL is £10k or so. Yes it is electronic. However, the relative price increases partly reflect costs but mostly the additional complicated parts that are now fitted, which cost more and more to service. The size of the costs do not reflect the improvement in performance, which is marginal at best.
I bought a new TCR in September, and in December, there was a 7% discount.
@@dadonlees the later you leave it the more you tend to get. Maybe model specific but the 2023 Defy Advanced I have been looking at are 30-40% off.
Do you Know if the new TCR is coming in 2024?
I cant believe you commentors are saying this crap! These guys are speaking nothing but truth. Isnt that what you wanted? Truth?
well, its our truth, and if we dont share it, it can't be challenged.
Benchmark bike for someone to get into racing is still a rim brake bike with R7000 groupset. That's it. Light and fast.
2024 benchmark endurance bike is a modern disc brake bike with new 12-speed R7100 mech groupset.
Fully agree with rim brakes and r7000 105! Can’t beat it on price.
The old alloy Defy (with dropped stays) was a blast to ride, I owned 2 of them (blue and yellow). You could easily get it below 7.2kg with Ultegra and some Mavic alloy wheels. It was crazy light at the time 🤯 because this was a Fred endurance staple. The only carbon component was the factory fork.
To be fair, the new propel is quite light compared to other aero frames
Yeah. It’s quite telling the pro team chose the TCR though. I wonder if the propel will last beyond a new TCR model
@@Mapdec Which pro team are you talking about?
@@Mapdec I think you're confused. Jayco pro team use the propel not the TCR. The Propel SL is about 6.9kg and aero at the front
I love my TCR
And so you should
For reference my 2018 M/L TCR Advanced rim brake frame is 1110g bare (no bearings, seatpost clamp or water bottle bolts but includes internal cable routing guides and derailleur hangers) a bit heavier than expected. Maybe someone could weigh an Advanced Pro to see if there is any difference. I suspect that maybe the paint is a little lighter but that's about it. I have both alloy steerer and OS carbon forks so will be able to do a test and comparison of forks in same frame when I get the build done (about 140g weight difference between forks).
CUBE also so make some sensible bikes at realistic prices. Quality is better than most bikes available.
What about lapierre xelius,?
No bike should be more than 8K
5k is already too much
A short time ago 5k would be a dura ace dream build bike, now somehow these are 8-15k. Outrageous.
Why though? There should be bike for any price as long as someone buys it. Problem is not 15k bikes, problem is cyclists somehow think that they should be to afford any bike. Can everyone afford most expensive house, car, tv or etc?
@@vitskr1 Well, sure. But mostly I think these discussions are about mass produced carbon bikes popping out of molds rather than artisanal customs that could be of unlimited price. It takes R&D, labor etc of course but the large companies with the greatest ability (my interpretation) to serve this middle ground of entry level performance bikes seem to be instead stocking bikes that are equipped at the 3k+ range for 105 on their "lower tier" framesets.
Totally agree a mass produced bike made in the far east ain't worth more than 5k tops and that would be dura ace etc
This is a really weird complaint. Everything you are complaining about is true with other brands. Take Time for example, ADH21, ADH01, ADH 2023, ADHX, ADH45, ADHWTF with Dyneema and without damper. What is what I can't tell either. BMC SLR01, SLR, SLR02 One, SLR01 Five, SLR One 02. Specialized based model and mid range with nearly the same crappy wheelsets. I don't get the point of this video except "Giant" is not "sexy enough" even though they make very good bikes that rival or better the other name brands that they also produce for. I am guessing you are not a Giant AD?
By the way Time ADH owner here.
Great point. Every brand is guilty of model range bloat at some level. I think Time have ditched a lot of that now, but I totally take your point.
Vitus Vitesse EVO Rival AXS?
Boardman 8.9 ADV?
No 16yo would ride a Boardman. 🤷♂️
@@Mapdec Cause it’s a crappy bike?
Boardman road bikes are almost all great value bikes. The ADV range is excellent. There are so many bought on cycle to work there are fantastic bargains to be had on little used bikes, almost new condition. My winter bike is an ADV 8.6 upgraded to an 11spd hydraulic groupset from my previous bike. Cost me peanuts in all and is a great ride. The 8.9 is improved by way of thru axles and the 9.0 is a fantastic choice for ultra events.
@@richardgate1571 I’ve got the 8.9 adv as my first bike used for 500 quid. I love it. Can I put road tires on the wheels it comes with for summer
@@kulchatha4657 no, for the same reason a 17yo would rather buy a Saxo with dents than drive their mum’s Skoda.
Good rant or exchange ! On the affordable scale I have always found Merida to be good value,not sure what would be a benchmark now as the last bike I bought new was in 2012. A Merida Warp5 TT alloy with FSA & Shimano Ultegra, rim brakes. A Giant TCM yellow & black mtb hardtail I had mid 90s was a good bike.All of the Giant TCRs I tried flexed too much or had other issues.
I've never ridden one (nor serviced) and their QC may be questionable, but Canyons have always seemed like a very good valued bikes out of box. If I was on a tight budged, Id be definitely looking at one of AL ones..
How come we get whole bikes much cheaper in India but shimano and other part prices are 2-3x more costly compared to UK? For example we can get TCR Adv 3 for 1900 pounds but a shimano 105 7100 12 speed mechanical groupset costs 800 pounds here in India. For 850 you can get 105 di2 in UK 😮😮😮
Well guys into selling bikes and building bikes won't say canyon it is the value brand.
Id say the Trek Emonda AL5 Disc is _'almost'_ perfect. 105 R7000. The real thing that lets the bike down are the Bontrager Paradigm SL wheels which are pretty heavy. A 31-38mm aluminium or carbon set of hoops would have made it an absolute no brainer. Trek even calls the Emonda AL5 a 'race-ready road bike' - I mean you could race on an old 60s or 70s vintage Peugeot but that doesnt make it the idea candidate for it (unless it was a vintage race)
Looking around a bit more. The Specialized Allez Sprint Comp gets my vote. Comes with DT Swiss R470 rims. Although it is significantly more expensive than the AL5 but its a definitely a bike I could just pick up and race. Still shallow at 23mm but 530g lighter than the Paradigm SL's
::EDIT::
Also no way am i calling the Allez Sprint great or even good value. I think its terrible value for money. The AL5 would be a better choice if you had a set of carbon wheels ready to go or ready to purchase. The difference is about £700-800 between the bikes and thats £700-800 you could spend on wheels if you take the AL5. The Bontrager's you could probably flog them on ebay for £150-200??
Rose XLite04 can be good value for money, the 105 di2 is currently missing from the shop. The mechanical ultegra (2x11) is currently selling for 2900€, at 7.8 kg this seems good.
It really feels like 105 mechanical carbon and disc brake has become a terrible deal. I can get a Rose Pro SL (an alloy frame, but a very nice one) with 105 and rim brakes for 1100 EUR right now. I've had one for a few years and it's absolutely brilliant. Meanwhile if you want carbon and disc brakes you're looking at close to 3k and the wheels and finishing kit will be equal or worse. Maybe it's all a decoy effect play in order to sell more 105/Ultegra Di2 carbon-wheeled bikes for 4-5k which honestly feels like a way better deal.
If it's a matter of bang for buck entry level bike worth racing then I say definitely go aluminum. 2023 Emonda ALR is a very overlooked bike and even has clever internal cable routing on an aluminum frame. Any American crit rider has taken a close look at the Allez Sprint if they don't already have one. Personally I recently added a CAAD10 to my stable and I'm impressed with how it holds up to my other top spec carbon bikes, although there is a weight difference - It's not the same but it's a good ride.
I was going to buy it for almost 3000€ this year but realized I don’t want to pay more than I believe it should cost. So I ended up spending more but for a bike that genuinely costed more
What about cube bikes?
Some good stuff in there, but spend some time trawling the over complicated range and avoid some of the lemons.
The Fuji SLA 1.3 with 105 groupset for $2000 is a fantastic deal and a benchmark bike for new racers out there.
Ohh. Good shout
Lost a lot of integrity with this one. Propel sl is 6.9kg and comes with the best 'stock wheels' and finishing kit you could hope for. Final straw was mentioning Look as a benchmark bike 😅. Not sure how you're flexing your tcr. I'm only slightly lighter and considerably more powerful than you and mine doesnt flex
You haven’t seen the LOOK Jake mentioned. It’s not a benchmark, but it’s going to raise some eyebrows. Flex a tcr easily. Get on a 20% hill and give it some beans.
@@Mapdec I know you like these look and time bikes, but they are niche brands. Judging by most comments on here, A lot of people disagree with your assessment.
Not many 20% hill near me, but I max out over 1700w and don't notice any flex with winspace wheels
Could be so with heavy riders. I'm 74kg and ride an XL base model advanced. Flex is minimal
Good dialogue guys, lots of good input from Jake, which is nice to see from a young guy who's just getting started in the business. I can see why you've let him do some videos on his own.
New TCR confirmed for 2024, let’s go! Good discussion guys.
I doubt the TCR would get updated soon. The development priority is on the Propel world tour bike.
Giant will only keep the TCR alive as legacy product line. Similar to the Specialized Allez. Since the TCR is the race bike that made Giant known worldwide.
I know it's being updated, unless people from Giant Australia are speaking from their rectums...@@iMadrid11
Trek with a rear entry hole!!! Best sound bite from that. With the prices the way they are the bench mark should be a second hand, two your old bike with ultegra. You're going to get a great bike cheap with a great group set and can upgrade when need to at a good price even if you take to lbs to do the work
The best cheap bike is the van rysel EDR. 1200 euro and shimano 105
Have you ridden one?
Their XL geometry is way too small for their largest bike
I still ride my bike which I bought in 2018. That is a Btwin - before it was called a van rysel. With a mavic wheelset and a complete ultegra groupset. I don't remember exactly how much it cost, but I think it was around €1200