Guide to the Seven Heavens of Mount Celestia | D&D Planescape

Поділитися
Вставка
  • Опубліковано 21 лис 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 124

  • @PsychedelicScrafty
    @PsychedelicScrafty 7 місяців тому +42

    the production quality in these is so good

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  7 місяців тому +4

      I'm actually surprised to see someone say that, but I'll take it.

  • @gii7851
    @gii7851 7 місяців тому +15

    FIRST! What a coincidence that I just got done watching all your D&D videos and boom, a new one dropped just 58 seconds ago. Thanks for doing what you do!

  • @ChrisJones388
    @ChrisJones388 7 місяців тому +16

    Thanks for keeping 2e Planescape alive.

  • @gabrieldixon9621
    @gabrieldixon9621 7 місяців тому +10

    I've been loving these. I'd love to see a video on Arborea, as it feels less intuitive as to what it has to offer as an afterlife.

  • @tomfoolery5680
    @tomfoolery5680 4 місяці тому +4

    Please, please, pretty please would you cover Dark Sun?
    Athas has always been my favorite setting. The lore is deep and it's by far the most disticnt D and D setting imo.

  • @djcothra4201
    @djcothra4201 6 місяців тому +17

    Such a good and useful guide! I am considering running a shorter campaign where all the PCs are evil, trying to climb celestia to assassinate higher level archons. However, on their way up, they gradually lose more of their evil selfish traits and eventually become good instead, forgetting their original mission

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  5 місяців тому +2

      That sounds like a cool campaign!

    • @bbd121
      @bbd121 Місяць тому +1

      I think I'm going to steal this idea.

    • @djcothra4201
      @djcothra4201 Місяць тому

      @@bbd121 lets go

  • @Joanropo
    @Joanropo 7 місяців тому +8

    Elysium, please. In my homebrew world, the patron deity of the kingdom where my players are, has his own realm in Elysium and it would help greatly to my lore to know more about it. Love your content, I can't believe you read all those books from planescape. You are amazing and thank you for sharing!

    • @robertwalker-o4t
      @robertwalker-o4t Місяць тому

      I’d have to second that. Pelor is my go to good aligned God I use for my settings and I believe he dwells there .

  • @e.e5377
    @e.e5377 Місяць тому +4

    Youre criminally underrated. I hope your sub count and views climb to match the other "big" DnD loretubers. Youre like the Luetin09 of DnD/planescape for me, appreciate you.

  • @Druidic_Brujo
    @Druidic_Brujo 7 місяців тому +21

    “Warmpth” took me out 🤣🤣
    I don’t know why that was so funny

  • @radyoung779
    @radyoung779 3 місяці тому +4

    I bought Planescape when it first came out. My friends and I tied together all the campaign setting with it. I think Planescape is still my favorite D&D content because you can go completely nuts with it or keep things relatively grounded.

  • @KanadeStar
    @KanadeStar 7 місяців тому +6

    Absolutely thrilled to see another planescape video from you. Haven’t rooted this hard for a small UA-camr in a while, keep up the amazing work man!

  • @talkingmudcrab718
    @talkingmudcrab718 7 місяців тому +2

    This was great. I've been going thru some tough shit lately and this was really relaxing and enjoyable to listen to.

  • @nathanpfirman625
    @nathanpfirman625 7 місяців тому +3

    Finally a channel that covers the whole of Mount Celestia. I like where D&D has been going recently. They've been going back to the importance of the planes of existence in planescape. I love seeing the "whole" of the story not the individual tiny little stories that make it up.

  • @MajorCinnamonBuns
    @MajorCinnamonBuns 4 місяці тому +2

    These are clearly the definitive videos on D&D planes. Love what you're doing, Hope you get around to doing all of them.

  • @nonemo138
    @nonemo138 4 місяці тому +18

    Came here to learn how to mount Celestia. Was sorely disappointed.

  • @joekiker2296
    @joekiker2296 7 місяців тому +2

    As a DM for a little group of friends, these are SO helpful. thanks so much!!!

  • @ginogarcia8730
    @ginogarcia8730 7 місяців тому +4

    heck yeah 1 hour of lore?? count me in

  • @not-a-theist8251
    @not-a-theist8251 7 місяців тому +1

    I really liked your dive into the history of allignement. That was very interesting.

  • @nathanaelthomas9243
    @nathanaelthomas9243 7 місяців тому +2

    Awesome video! I’ve watched many videos on Mount Celestia and this has been my favorite so far. I appreciate that you include so much detail especially the various locations and NPCs one might find. It really helps to imagine the place and what it would be like.

  • @erbhastings
    @erbhastings 7 місяців тому +14

    Don't stop Wade! Your voice is... *chef's kiss*

  • @KrunchieBlaque
    @KrunchieBlaque 5 місяців тому +2

    I’m on a fucking tour rn. Watching all of your old stuff. All of it’s so good man

  • @CharlotteMimic
    @CharlotteMimic 5 місяців тому +1

    I listened to this like a podcast and I loved it

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  5 місяців тому +1

      Glad you loved it, got another one coming in 12 hours.

  • @cascadianone
    @cascadianone 7 місяців тому +3

    Requesting a video about Elysium, thank you!

  • @philipphein8350
    @philipphein8350 7 місяців тому +2

    Thanks for your in-depth look into and analysis of Mount Celestia. I appreciate it. It would be great if you did that with the other realms of D&D as well.

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  7 місяців тому +1

      It may take a while, but that's the plan if these videos keep getting views.

  • @BobKnarly
    @BobKnarly 6 місяців тому +1

    These are some of the best lore videos ive ever watched please keep making them

  • @pleasedontmakemefamous8301
    @pleasedontmakemefamous8301 7 місяців тому +1

    Dude im so happy you've done another. So sick

  • @shaydvil7905
    @shaydvil7905 6 місяців тому +2

    I love the... "Holistic" (get it?) way you managed to summarize everything that's in Mount Celestia! If I may suggest, could you talk about the layers of the Abyss next? Great video!
    Edit: Oh whoops, you already mentioned it towards the end

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  6 місяців тому +1

      Working on an Abyss video now!

    • @nathanpfirman625
      @nathanpfirman625 5 місяців тому

      There's actually not that many videos talking about the abyss's layers themselves.

  • @llewelynshingler2173
    @llewelynshingler2173 7 місяців тому +5

    Mount Celestia, despite being a Paradise Dimension, it seems Closer to Dante's Purgatorio, Mountain where repentent sinners are cleasned of Evil.

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  7 місяців тому +2

      That's a good point. I definitely should've mentioned that in the video. It's like a combination of Dante's Purgatorio and Paradiso. It's like Paradiso in names and themes, but like Purgatorio in that way you mentioned where you purge yourself of sin, but also it's a freaking mountain island. Can't believe I missed that.

  • @chrisstorrer
    @chrisstorrer 4 місяці тому +1

    long story but i bought the planescape campaign setting box by mistake when i was a boy, i was so disturbed by what i found lol. thanks for these videos

  • @goblinbxtch7540
    @goblinbxtch7540 6 місяців тому +1

    I know it's going to take some time with how extensive these videos are, but I'm so keen for (hopefully) the rest, they're amazing resources! I've watched all of every dnd video you've made so far and they're so good man keep it up.

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  6 місяців тому +2

      Glad you like them! But yeah they do take some time. This one I'm working on now has been taking an incredibly long time, at this point my goal is to have it up by the end of next month.

    • @goblinbxtch7540
      @goblinbxtch7540 5 місяців тому

      @@WadeAllen001 Yayy can't wait, but no rush! Will be here when it's ready :)

  • @alvaro701
    @alvaro701 Місяць тому +1

    incredible job

  • @jppitre
    @jppitre 7 місяців тому +1

    Hell yeah another banger lore video for my campaign

  • @shimianto
    @shimianto 7 місяців тому +1

    Love the video style and how clear and detailed you are with each topic. Both this and the Baator video! Subscribed :)

  • @andrewwaybright8758
    @andrewwaybright8758 3 місяці тому +1

    I’d like one on the Neutral Good plane!

  • @paulodutra5289
    @paulodutra5289 6 місяців тому +1

    In the original video about the Outer planes, you talked about the cristal spheres, where it's possible to live other words like planets and solar systems. I think it would be cool if you presented the cosmology of the prime material present in the Spelljammers series of books

  • @NelsonReyesJr
    @NelsonReyesJr 7 місяців тому +1

    Fantastic work!!!

  • @100iqgaming
    @100iqgaming 7 місяців тому +2

    please do every plane in turn, idc if it takes 10 years i want this level of discussions for the planes idk about like arcadia

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  7 місяців тому

      At my current rate doing every plane would take 2 years. If these videos keep getting views I'll do it.

  • @cernunnos_lives
    @cernunnos_lives 7 місяців тому +7

    Shout out to Lord Demogorgon. The only thing keeping what's in your toilet and the Abyss from overflowing is Asmodeus. The unholy plunger 🪠 of the Nine Hells.

    • @rickyevans2697
      @rickyevans2697 4 місяці тому

      Shout out to Demogorgon! And Dungeoncast!

  • @gatesthree
    @gatesthree 5 місяців тому +1

    Thank you for these

  • @Primal-Mythos
    @Primal-Mythos 6 місяців тому

    Would be interested to see video guides on either Elysium or Ysgard 😁

  • @Scimi325
    @Scimi325 7 місяців тому +2

    I'd love to watch a video about Elysium

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  7 місяців тому

      Elysium seems like the clear favorite so far in these comments. Though in my last video I had the most votes for the Abyss, so maybe Abyss next and Elysium after that.

  • @eruantien1549
    @eruantien1549 7 місяців тому

    Astral plane! It's changed so much

  • @Safier_Poochy
    @Safier_Poochy 7 місяців тому +4

    In Fizban's Treasury of Dragons there is the Elegy of the First World. It describes how the two primeval creatures Bahamut and Tiamat created the entire first world. Probably the Prime Matter plane itself. The other gods and their creation seize the first world. Eventually the first world splinters into all the other worlds of the Prime. Bahamut became the Angel of the Seven Heavens and Timat a captive of Avernus.
    This story has some similarities with the story of Jazirin and Ahriman. Two Lawful primeval beings who created the three cosmic truths and the Outland.
    I imagine both stories are real. Jazirin and Ahriman as creators of the Outer Plane and Bahamut and Tiamat as creators of the Prime. Now all that's missing are two Lawful primeval creatures who created the Inner Planes.
    The Lady of Pain is probably the Silent Guardian of these 6 primeval creatures.

    • @JazzyBassy
      @JazzyBassy 7 місяців тому +1

      Bigby's Treasury of Giants adds an addendum to the myth of the Elegy. It shows the possibility of Annam All-father being that Primeval shaper of the Inner Planes.
      The myth of Diancastra's Saga contains a claim that Bahamut and Tiamat heralded the First World, but the sundered fragments were collected by Annam, who scattered and nurtured their seeds, shaping them and connecting them into the worlds of the Material Plane of today and giving rulership of them to his sons (Until they lost it and he retreated in disappointment). Beyond that there is this section:
      "Other sagas claim Annam was similarly instrumental in the creation of the Inner Planes, slowly sorting the tumult of the Elemental Chaos until the four Elemental Planes took shape. These sagas explain the giants’ close ties to the elemental forces of air, earth, fire, and water by pointing to Annam’s early efforts in the Elemental Planes."
      Later on in Diancastra's saga, Diancastra, daughter of Annam, is tasked to bring Pure Perfection to prove herself at the request of divinity. She goes to the Elemental Chaos and grabs a mote of chaos, which Annam is baffled by and starts shaping it into various elemental terrains, dissatisfied each time. She says: “Forsake your cunning craft! Chaos is a canvas for creation, unbounded, Perfectly imperfect and unformed. You cannot perfect potential.”
      This shows that the primeval giants can naturally take Elemental Chaos and use it as a canvas that they can transform into anything. I think the Elemental Chaos was already there, and there hasn't been a primeval creator of it. My interpretation is: Annam is the one that divided the Inner Planes organized sections of Water, Fire, Air, Earth, and their intersections, as a painter would segment their palette's paint; he and his sons would then use this elemental palette to paint the ecology of the worlds.
      Of course, it's a myth, but it fits with the elemental connection of giants, and them being a counterpart to Dragons. Diancastra tells Bigby that that the chosen myth and Bigby's interpretation of it are reasonable ones.
      I have a theory that the Elemental Chaos is not actually an intentionally created plane, but an elemental landfill that gathers the elements of destroyed worlds like a black hole. A few factions and places in the book describe doomsday theories of worlds dissolving into The Elemental Chaos if things go wrong. We can see a catacylsm in the sundering of the First World; perhaps all the elements of the terrain and Dragon magic of the First World dissolved into the Elemental Chaos. This leaves survivors of the First World as the Primordials of the Inner Planes; the Elementals as their creations; and Giants as the recyclers, organizers, and painters of the Inner Planes.

    • @Safier_Poochy
      @Safier_Poochy 7 місяців тому

      I haven't read Bigby Presents: Glory of the Giants. But I wasn't that far off the mark with my guess. Then we have 5 or 6 primeval creatures. Jazirin and Ahrima create the Outer Planes, presumably first. Bahamut and Tiamat created the Prime Matter Plane. All-father Annam created the Inner Planes. And of course the Lady of Pain, she probably silently watched over the creation of the multiverse. None of the three myths contradict each other, so I think there is some truth to these three myths.

  • @geofftottenperthcoys9944
    @geofftottenperthcoys9944 7 місяців тому

    There are some VERY good netbooks out their for 2nd ed Planescape, I use a few of them.

  • @joshuasuggs2379
    @joshuasuggs2379 7 місяців тому +1

    I love these videos

  • @nikospolitis5635
    @nikospolitis5635 7 місяців тому +1

    Excellent!

  • @curspry4050
    @curspry4050 7 місяців тому +1

    God i love these, make more!

  • @nathanpfirman625
    @nathanpfirman625 7 місяців тому +1

    I believe dying on Mount Celestia as a petitioner means you are reborn their. While dying on other planes means oblivion. So the opposite of the nine hells. I feel like the hells and the mountains of Celestia are just inverted versions of each other.

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  7 місяців тому

      Do you know where you heard that? Because I haven't seen it anywhere.

    • @nathanpfirman625
      @nathanpfirman625 5 місяців тому

      Not sure but I think Mr. Rhexx said it.

  • @docdeezer
    @docdeezer 7 місяців тому +67

    babe wake up new Wade Allen just dropped

    • @minecraft101is
      @minecraft101is 7 місяців тому +5

      Fr

    • @foggy227
      @foggy227 4 місяці тому

      Yay, I can wake up just to fall asleep again

  • @goblinbenjo4326
    @goblinbenjo4326 6 місяців тому +1

    Its my sleepover i get to pick the movie

  • @emilyonearth5354
    @emilyonearth5354 7 місяців тому +1

    DnD utilizing real world religion makes me feel like I'm having a stroke, I astral projected hearing "the eightfold path" during a video on dnd

  • @firstnamelastname7244
    @firstnamelastname7244 7 місяців тому

    You know, given how often a place in Mount Celestia will have a property like "you can't hide secrets" or whatever, this place is basically hell for most rogues.

  • @Safier_Poochy
    @Safier_Poochy 7 місяців тому

    I think that Bahamut/Paladine and Tiamat/takhisis are just avatars of the same unknown divine entity. The avatars are independent of each other but come from the same divine source.

  • @yellowrose0910
    @yellowrose0910 7 місяців тому

    AD&D 1e had full two-axis alignment as well

  • @chronochrome7837
    @chronochrome7837 7 місяців тому

    As a fairly neutral aligned individual, I think the 'dee-vah' pronunciation is quite appropriate.

  • @neceon4586
    @neceon4586 7 місяців тому +2

    LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

  • @LambdaFan34
    @LambdaFan34 7 місяців тому +1

    GOOOOOOOO

  • @81Earthangel
    @81Earthangel 7 місяців тому

    Is there a list of adventures for each of the planes?

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  7 місяців тому

      Not that I'm aware of. But the Planes of Law, Planes of Chaos, and Planes of Conflict books that describe each plane in detail include 3 short adventures for each plane. Then there are also the books of compilations of adventures such as Tales from the Infinite Staircase or The Well of Worlds. They're not really listed by plane though, and most adventures involve visiting multiple planes.

  • @carolxs
    @carolxs 7 місяців тому

    The Seven Heavens are less interesting than The Nine Hells for the same reason everyone prefers Dante's first book (Inferno) over the others: there is little to no conflict in the heavens, everyone is beautiful and perfect =P Nice video though. I find it confusing that Eladrin are now considered Fey.

  • @oguzhanozgenc7843
    @oguzhanozgenc7843 7 місяців тому

    Oh wow a lot of angels for my evil campaign group to slay! yay!

  • @123Jakeism
    @123Jakeism 4 місяці тому +1

    👌🏽👌🏽👌🏽

  • @gustavopaez6368
    @gustavopaez6368 3 місяці тому

    To be a ruler and then become a servant, that is something that will happen in Heaven, it is the highest test of humility and service

  • @kevinjustason
    @kevinjustason 3 місяці тому

    The guardinals

  • @Vanished_Mostly
    @Vanished_Mostly 5 місяців тому

    I forgive you.

  • @yaelz6043
    @yaelz6043 7 місяців тому

    Oh hey its that one afterlife no DnD player ever goes to.

  • @jacksonhelm9976
    @jacksonhelm9976 15 днів тому

    how does it feel to be peak

  • @canned3880
    @canned3880 2 місяці тому +1

    You have a great voice, tired of all the ais reading off the wiki

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  Місяць тому

      I really hate those AI voice videos.

  • @jonnyboy7941
    @jonnyboy7941 7 місяців тому +1

    hmmm a tad too furry for my tastes. Give me the good old angels and demons from pre she who must not be named days.

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  7 місяців тому

      Yeah it is surprisingly furry, but the angels still do basically exist in the form of Aasimon.

  • @CharlotteMimic
    @CharlotteMimic 5 місяців тому +1

    1:04:50 opinion: women dwarves should also have beards

  • @seantracey9935
    @seantracey9935 3 місяці тому +1

    I'll never understand the pronunciation junkies who have to leave the commets, "its said like this"
    Maybe do your own channel and stop being so critical to someone who is actually doing something. Rant over.

  • @mortuusponduus7879
    @mortuusponduus7879 2 місяці тому

    51:08, hey friend, i hate to say it but… that’s AI art

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  2 місяці тому +1

      Damn. I've been trying to avoid AI art. I see so much of it while making these videos that usually I can tell. I guess I didn't look at the picture long enough, because now that I am I can see a few weird things about it.

    • @mortuusponduus7879
      @mortuusponduus7879 2 місяці тому

      @@WadeAllen001 it’s ok, I figured it was just cause there wasn’t a lot of information on the group in question, I love the videos, great quality overall. If you get the chance to change it that’s great, if not it’s understandable, I’d just make a disclaimer so people know.

  • @johnmobley9369
    @johnmobley9369 7 місяців тому

    Did he say warmth wrong? Guess we’re both Doofin

  • @osirisgem
    @osirisgem 7 місяців тому

    I was excited for this, but at about 7 mins now and all you are talking about is a subject entirely of it's own and not at all relevant as Im am 100% certain anyone clicking on this video already knows this, or doesn't care, likely because it's so off topic that it almost feels like clickbait, if one can even create such a thing with this topic.

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  7 місяців тому +2

      There are timestamps, skip to what you care about. But I appreciate the feedback. So far I got one person who says they really appreciated that history of alignment part, and now one person who really didn't, so I can't be sure yet if it was a bad idea to include it. But I don't think everyone does already know about it. And the reason I included it is because in my previous videos I got lots of comments from people asking me to talk about the differences between editions. I also didn't think it was off topic or irrelevant, because it's about what lawful good means and how alignment works, which matters a lot for the outer planes and what type of characters go to the plane in question.

  • @yellowrose0910
    @yellowrose0910 7 місяців тому

    "Child-Sacrifice Alignment Problem". Liok at it differently: is not the *act* but the *reason*. Do you follow the rules of Society (whatever that society is)? Then you'd be Lawful and sacrifice in the sacrifice culture and not sacrifice in the not sacrifice culture. Too many people instinctively equate Lawful with Good and Lawful Good with Goodness.

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  7 місяців тому

      But it seems like you're one-dimensionalizing lawful good and lawful evil into just lawful. If sacrificing in the sacrifice culture and not sacrificing in the anti-sacrifice culture just makes you lawful, then what makes you good or evil? You know what I mean? If a lawful good character goes to Baator and participates in torturing lemures because it's allowed by the culture, they're no longer lawful good, they've become lawful evil.

  • @harpiesd96
    @harpiesd96 7 місяців тому +1

    Don't be so hard on yourself over your pronunciation of "warmth" 😅. I think the only times pronunciation really matters is with proper nouns, all other discrepancies can just be called "your dialect," which I think people can be understanding of.

  • @MoonGoblin
    @MoonGoblin 4 місяці тому

    Really, Deva isn't pronounced 'day-vuh'? That's how it's pronounced in the source they got it from (Hinduism)
    With something like Sigil, I can accept the made-up pronunciation because it's a completely made-up place (although that was legitimately a mistake that a writer made and just doubled down on, like this)
    This is different tho cuz it's already the term for the mythological being they're describing. They don't wanna admit they got the pronunciation wrong, I guess?
    Also, giving it the pronunciation 'diva' kinda brings the connotations of that word along with it and I think that undercuts their seriousness a bit :/

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  4 місяці тому

      I agree with you. I still pronounce it "day-vuh" despite what the D&D source books say. I keep my own personal pronunciations for things where I think they sound better or make more sense, but I use the pronunciations listed in the books for my videos so people can't say I pronounced something wrong (or at least so it happens less because inevitably there's something I still pronounce wrong or D&D itself offers conflicting pronunciations).

    • @MoonGoblin
      @MoonGoblin 4 місяці тому

      @@WadeAllen001 Right on. I do the same. Some original words are confusing to pronounce and have no guide to pronouncing them though... *cough cough* dragon names *cough cough*

  • @ETthehorse
    @ETthehorse 7 місяців тому

    5E Planescape was more of a money grab then a product about the planes. 2nd Edition is so much better written with god game design vs 5E which has zero updated lore, no continuity, poor writing and bad game design sadly.

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  7 місяців тому

      Yeah I was pretty disappointed that there was essentially nothing at all in those 5e Planescape books about the Outer Planes.

  • @gerardoalvarado8425
    @gerardoalvarado8425 7 місяців тому

    So you forcefully have to be a furry to move up in Mt Celestia, lame 😒

  • @ChrisGrahamkedzuel
    @ChrisGrahamkedzuel 7 місяців тому

    Seriously using an image from Shadowlands for Mertion? blech.

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  7 місяців тому

      Lol it was a bad expansion, but the art and visuals of WoW are always great.

  • @Safier_Poochy
    @Safier_Poochy 7 місяців тому

    I think that Bahamut/Paladine and Tiamat/takhisis are just avatars of the same unknown divine entity. The avatars are independent of each other but come from the same divine source.

  • @carolxs
    @carolxs 7 місяців тому +2

    The Seven Heavens are less interesting than The Nine Hells for the same reason everyone prefers Dante's first book (Inferno) over the others: there is little to no conflict in the heavens, everyone is beautiful and perfect =P Nice video though. I find it confusing that Eladrin are now considered Fey.

    • @WadeAllen001
      @WadeAllen001  7 місяців тому +1

      Yeah I did worry about that, that this video will get less views simply because heaven is less interesting than hell. Glad you still liked it though. And yeah I should've mentioned that Eladrin are fey in later editions, native to the Feywild instead of Arborea.

    • @firstnamelastname7244
      @firstnamelastname7244 7 місяців тому +1

      I think I'm one of the few people who find descriptions of heaven/paradise more interesting than descriptions of hell.

    • @carolxs
      @carolxs 7 місяців тому

      @@firstnamelastname7244 well descriptions are one thing, but in terms of story and narrative, for me, the most interesting stories from Heavens are those where celestials fall or are tricked =P