The Purpose of the Universe
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
- The Michael Shermer Show # 391
Why are we here? What’s the point of existence? On the ‘big questions’ of meaning and purpose, Western thought has been dominated by the dichotomy of traditional religion and secular atheism. In his pioneering work, Philip Goff argues that it is time to move on from both God and atheism. Through an exploration of contemporary cosmology and cutting-edge philosophical research on consciousness, Goff argues for cosmic purpose: the idea that the universe is directed towards certain goals, such as the emergence of life.
In contrast to religious thinkers, Goff argues that the traditional God is a bad explanation of cosmic purpose. Instead, he explores a range of alternative possibilities for accounting for cosmic purpose, from the speculation that we live in a computer simulation to the hypothesis that the universe itself is a conscious mind. Goff scrutinizes these options with analytical rigour, laying the foundations for a new paradigm of philosophical enquiry into the middle ground between God and atheism. Ultimately, Goff outlines a way of living in hope that cosmic purpose is still unfolding, involving political engagement and a non-literalist interpretation of traditional religion.
Shermer and Goff discuss: • living in a computer simulation • the universe itself as a conscious mind • cosmic purpose • fine-tuning • free will • consciousness (the ground of all being?) • morality and the Is-Ought Fallacy • What is my purpose in life? • religious vs. secular answers to the purpose question • awe and how to be spiritual but not religious.
Philip Goff is Professor of Philosophy at Durham University. His research focuses on consciousness and the ultimate nature of reality. Goff is best known for defending panpsychism, the view that consciousness pervades the universe and is a fundamental feature of it. On that theme, Goff has published three books, Consciousness and Fundamental Reality, Galileo’s Error: Foundations for a New Science of Consciousness, and a co-edited volume, Is Consciousness Everywhere? Essays on Panpsychism. Goff has published many academic articles, as well as writing extensively for newspapers and magazines, including Scientific American, The Guardian, Aeon, and the Times Literary Supplement. His new book is Why: The Purpose of the Universe.
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It seems to me thoughts of meaning and purpose are nothing more than human ideas. Why should the laws of the universe fit our ideas? The universe just is. Pretty simple methinks.
Yeah. Not sure why so many people have such problem with this. My thoughts are that it’s just ‘human exceptionalism.’
@@geordiedog1749 That's about it, my friend. We are a somewhat arrogant mob aint we.
It's always the only explanation that a materialist have "it's what it's !!" ... why not then 2 electrons ? a stone ? a banana rotating in space for eternity ? Universe is too elegantly simple and yet rich to say "it's what it's dont sting my materialist bubble !!"
@@francesco5581 Not quite sure what you’re trying to say? What is too simple or too rich, exactly? I feel a ‘puddle analogy’ coming on here!
@@geordiedog1749 or there is a consciousness behind the universe or there is chance . Chance does not care to have a starting set and neither to create something complex , elegant and rich ... is clear now ??
I just wonder why anyone would give a shit about what happens in a few billion years.
I am paraphrasing here, but I wrote the thought down some time ago.
“If we look at human history, we're born with original sin. God could just forgive the sin we never committed, but instead he sacrificed his son Jesus, who was actually just himself in the flesh, because Christians are monotheists. So the only way to avoid eternal punishment for sins we never committed by this all-loving God is to accept his son... who's actually himself as our savior. So God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself; this is barking mad." Michael Shermer
This idea has been formulated by many people, and we just pass it on to one another. Theists pass along their ideas too, in their churches & other places, with the difference being they pay no attention to the many refutations of their ideas, and they keep repeating them.
As soon as I can afford a new armchair, I will also figure out the purpose of the universe.
Apologies, I'll be needing to steal this comment
In other words, who cares? If so, I'm with you. Such matters are irrelevant to our daily lives just as it is for any other species of animal. I do think the universe is interesting though. But nothing more.
We are the universe, the one. We are it's eyes and ears. When our body dies our self dissolves back into the universe, the one, the all, the everything. If you look for a god you will find yourself, you are god, you are a part of the one, the living universe as are we all, everyone, part of the one, it's living senses.
God.
Became man, so man could become God.
We come here to be what we are not, so we can go home and know it for the first.That's the reason for the duality
I want Phillip to describe what this actually means for society
If consciousness is foremost
He seems to just spout words without telling us the underlying truth
Oh come on! "What this actually means for society" is for you to decide for yourself. As is the "underlying truth" - this philosophy not science.
The Purpose is too FEEL bliss
But at the moment "we are letting out imagination run away with itself" and hence feeling an increasing fear
She always has the final word ,
I just wanted to say that the conversation between Michael and Philip was absolutely fascinating! I was so engrossed in their discussion that I barely noticed the time fly by. It's nice to see some different viewpoints on these topics, and I'm looking forward to picking up Philip's book.
Speaking of time flying, though... Did anyone else notice the monumental number of ads in this video? There was one every six minutes! I get that creators need to make a living, but maybe next time could try a different approach. Perhaps fewer, longer ads or even just some sponsor mentions woven into the conversation for a smoother viewing experience. 📚👍
Holy cow! Something is wrong here. "Goff argues for cosmic purpose: the idea that the universe is directed towards certain goals, such as the emergence of life." Wrong. There is no "end game" or "goal" or "cosmic purpose" of the universe. The universe exists and has always existed. Not our "small" observable universe, but the larger, perhaps call it "mother", Universe from which other universes possibly emerge.
Life happened on this planet by trial-and-error. Humans are just another branch on the tree of evolution. Evolution is not goal-oriented. There is no God-being. The Universe/universe comes with processes that maintain its existence; physics studies these processes.
Lots of assertions, but what is your response to my *arguments*?
@@philipgoff7897 Thanks for responding. My post reflects my current views on these topics. I just purchased your book, "Why? The Purpose of the Universe." When I read it, I'll respond here with my thoughts on your arguments.
I am familiar with your views on panpsychism and consciousness in "Galileo's Error." I disagree with that too! I am currently a strict physicalist. The brain and only the brain produces consciousness. Humans are strictly an evolutionary organism, nothing more. The larger, one and only, Universe of fundamental energy has "always" ("time doesn't exist in nature") existed. Our observable universe came from it. Yes, just claims.
There is not a *word* of your comment that isn't spot on.
". . . consciousness is a tight, bright spotlight roaming over a restless ocean of mind. Elsewhere in that ever-changing sea of perception and feeling, things change without conscious intent."
- David Berreby (2005), Us and Them: The Science of Identity
Thank you for thy attending unto our OWN! Love you Too! Remember thy shared I AM and came with conversations just for thee! Cherish! Why? Students will say what is conversations without another? Nor what is a Covenant without to share with another?
Can’t believe they did this whole podcast without touching upon psychedelics
Do not mess with your brain. Stay away from drugs.
So can panpsychism
The conference-affair example misses the point about free will entirely.The simple proof for this is that Harris, to whom the example is directed, would agree with all you have said. The question is whether if EVERYTHING WAS THE SAME, might it not have gone the same way. The compatibalist says even if it would always go the same way given those same conditions we could still act freely so long as--to give one popular compatibilist assay--we are doing what we WANT to do
The word "universe" is a placeholder that we use to mean something like "absolutely everything, including time, space, matter, and absolutely every other phenomenon that exists. Given that ws know that consciousness exists, the Universe is therefore conscious. It didn't "become conscious" after life appeared, as such time lines are fragmented understanding. Remember, the Universe is everything all in one thing, and that includes all time, by definition.
I am not making a declaration of a belief or theory.....im just saying that simply conceptualizing of the Universe implies that it is conscious. Not in some parts but not in others....again, we are talking about the Universe, everything at once.
It seems the universe has no purpose. So, we should create our own purpose and meaning,
Love Dr. Goff!
Why? The pointless question.
So long as we’re aware, the Universe is aware of itself.
So you think miniscule us is important to the universe?
@@robguyatt9602 What is the point of a universe that no-one can see?
@@nevbarnes1034 If nobody knows it exists, it has no purpose you can understand. But we can see our universe, definitely our world, and clearly how all life wants to live and reproduce.
@@homewall744 ...So we are in the interesting position of _giving meaning to the universe._ Minuscule us are doing quite a job there.
That was fun and thought provoking, especially since Phil’s accent sounds so much like The Beatles!
That's so cute!
I wasn't expecting to be lectured on marxism on the topic of the purpose of the universe, specially naïve points where the reasoning is always built on jealousy.
Am I the only one who can't even understand what people mean when they talk about the the universe having a "meaning"?
Another HIT! Thanks, Michael!
People are still enslaved by jobs, our society is based on it. Give people just enough to pay bills so they have to work whether they want to or not.
somewhat humorously, the advert that played in front of the video content was one promoting Jordan Peterson/Daily Wire
I think ads are at least somewhat tailored to the user. I got a cheesy spiritual ad, an online therapy one, and a gadget that tells you whats wrong with your car ...
1:16:20
To his point, it may indeed prove to be true, that human beings are the Center of the universe, in terms of spiritual intelligence.
I’m hoping we develop the science to send ASI bots to populate the universe and report back to us their findings.
Perhaps in the next 20 years or so.
The destructive irrational meanness can’t create minds too!
Because there has to be something; because there's no such thing as "nothing".
If determinism is true, What John says is what he is determined to say. And the universe will "eventually" effectivly recycle if there are a limited amount of possible configurations and enough time. Like in a CCC with a limited amount of ways fundamental forces can manifest.
I don't see the existence of evil and suffering to be arguments against God. Such arguments are narrowly anthropomorphic. I think a stronger argument is simply that if God intends the world to be as it is, 'He' has to be more complex than his creation. Then how did he come to be? If he just has a minimal 'purpose' and lets it evolve then he has no way to prevent evil, but then how did he know what to fine tune even to get to that minimal position?
What's the point of the universe if God _IS_ there?
39:00 Does Michael also absolutely condemn male genital mutilation? Why not?
_"We are committed to bodily autonomy for everyone...."_
What is an intelligent life? Asked unto all the Who am I concerning intelligent life? Unto all the shared I AM hold still. Let ALL noises to come forth! Specially unto all the Who am I scientists, technologies, mathematicians, nor men molding iron nor elements! Nor all religions nor all Feet come forth! Heirs will say while providing space and room to grow! Indeed HEIRS! Nevertheless the True Owner will take time no longer! If so! Quaking, trembling, shaking, hide us from HIM! Hiers will say why hide? Unto the little child "i" sitting with the AM? Who love with patience, mercy, and grace! Judgment and Justice is HIS THRONE? Will washed thy FEET to be given New feet! To be made NEW! Comes with wiping thy tears from your eyes! To turn TO TEARS OF JOY! Heirs will say remembering ye once born, to crawling, to walking, and till now thy feet resting upon the NEW very tip of time! Mileage from thy feet is recognize! HEIRS WILL SAY becareful requiring someone's life? Why? Will required thy lives from thee! Will be removed upon all HIS FOOTSTOOL! Becareful! Heirs and Angels who persevere commanded to keep watch! To soothe or grieve the COMFORTER! Same measure will be given. If my Heirs comes unto thee will say who are you? What is WHO am I? What is commanding unto these same minds? What is sustainable? While many looking for sustainable! Look at thy Feet resting upon? Why desired all thy feet without for thy feet to rest upon? Preserve
My beloved many who am I have set their own! If the True Owner comes unto thee! Hungry! Feet and nations are like TREES! Can be kept nor pluck out!
Because an absolute need to visualize and observe itself. It became man because if you're happy and you know, clap your hands, but if you don't know sadness, you don't know, happy so in the absolute you decide to press the button surprise and you end up here. This is from Allen Watts, the last quote which I think is Pro film so where in a existence of duality, because we got bored being everything and the absolute, so we had to be the opposite of that, to really know, how great it is to be excellent.It's all illusion
does subjective experience go on with universe to the end?
Either a god exists or not
Their is no middle ground
Goff gets his "god" idea entirely wrong because he holds to the absurd notion that the creator "god" is love, kindness, charity, helpful, all knowing, all present, for all time. Clearly, if there's a creator god, those are human notions, but unrelated to godly notions.
Goff is not the brightest knife in the drawer. It's a waste of time.
When will philosophers be able to go beyond the usual popular simplistic pseudo-metaphysics and begin to open their minds toward something slightly more sophisticated?
Probably when they no longer care if what they have to say gets ‘peer reviewed’
The universe is a finite closed physical system.
WTF, the fine tuning argument is a compelling argument for the existence of a god? That's ridiculous. It's just another god of the gaps argument.
He didn't say that. He just said that some kind of God(s) could be a potential explanation, no?
@@EffectiveAgainstSuffering God(s) are a explanation for absolutely everything and therefore useless.
Why does the Universe exist? God did it.
Why did the apple fall from the tree? God did it.
Why didn't it rain for 3 month? God did it.
EVERY question could be answered with "God did it." and the answer has zero explanatory power.
Morality is as relative as time and space.
Hermetic thinkers spelled it all out long ago.
Alex O’Connor and this guy seeming too think we have too give a yard to religion… no
Anything initiated at the quantum level, as we understand the universe to be, does not come about with purpose!
no, because chance would not make difference between having purpose or not regarding any quantum activity (and btw what cause all quantum stuff to be there at the beginning ???). And if you remove an intelligent first causation then you have to rely all on determinism... And determinism require a first set very very very precise to cause a so elegant and complex reality.
@@francesco5581
If the initial conditions of the universe are random, then there is no purpose baked into the system.
@@_a.z its true but that does not explain an elegant, complex, stable, universe... also the initial condition why are there if there is not "push" from a consciousness ? they poffed into reality for what ???
@@francesco5581
If you take away absolutely everything, virtual particles will still pop into and out of existence. They can be unstable and inflate into a universe, according to one of the best theories.
Our universe is largely very hostile to life but it may be the way it is because that's just how particles behave, or their could be a multiverse of chances to give rise to one that supports intelligent life.
@@francesco5581
Matter + energy + time = complexity
That's just an observation.
Phenomenal time = phenomenal complexity, at least in certain small pockets where conditions are right.
there isnt any - it just is. It just exists. 14:57 are you going to push back against that nonsense?! Michael - your a skeptic! How can you let him get away with saying that? WTF??? okay... so he clears it up himself I guess... :/ IDK.
Presactfully. We ain't so special as we would like to think :)
"it just exist" is the answer that an incompetent father would give to the son that ask why something happens.
Maybe he's happy to have a respectful discussion with people he disagrees with (heaven forbid).
@@robguyatt9602 we arent special but consciousness is. Since a reality without an observer basically (philosophically) does not exist.
@@francesco5581 So what you are saying is the universe did not exist for billions of years before life evolved to the point where consciousness arose. You have a paradox there my friend.
We can't control the expansion of the universe, but our minds will die a sad heat death if we don't confront the unknown and let it expand to infinity.
maybe we can figure out how to make a universe or stop heat death, but our brains will run out - unless we can figure out how to stop that as well, but at some point I think we will get board - but it will be awhile!
Seems to me you are smokin some good shit.
The universe is just necessity and chance.
There are just physical particles.
*"The universe is just necessity and chance. There are just physical particles."* Such an intolerable thought to so many, but I suspect it's because they were fed a magical story early on in life, and anything less is a huge letdown. Imagine being notified you had won a billion dollars, and all the newfound confidence you gained about your chances of living a magnificent life.... only to be told there had been a mistake.
@@science212 Ok? 🤔
Religion people don't understand the facts.
But we need to change that. @@chikkipop
Free will is an illusion but yes, we do need the rule of law, just one influenced by the knowledge of the development of the individual. We as a society need to step in long before it gets to the punitive. Much more knowledge on consciousness and development will be needed first. My 2 cents...
That which is, that is nothing in particular (actual), is by definition everything in general (potential).
God = Life
Life eternally actualizes infinite potential, because only Eternity can fully embrace Infinity.
The abstract (Heaven) called Love can be expressed concretely (Earth) as a smile, hug, etc, thereby uniting Heaven and Earth.
Silly.
@@chikkipop ?
Hour and a half in....is is just me or are they NOT talking about any universal purpose?
'So much gratuitous suffering' in the universe, yet it's the antinatalists who have the 'extreme view'?
What is consciousness? Consciousness of men own demise, understanding, nor world views? Or Consciousness of the little child "i" sitting with the AM. God of the Living. Consciousness what is thy reasons? Can't exist without shared thy I AM! While many who am I claiming! Many who am I claiming with many NOISES! IN FRONT OF THE LITTLE CHILD "i" sitting with the AM. Not knowing even creation itself can't exist in front! Of WHO? Some will say who are you? Heirs and our Beautiful will say ye all know? Documents for thee all. Resting upon no one can uproot nor shaken but here to stay for good. How and Why? Aren't ye all IN FRONT? What is fainting? Heirs and our Beautiful will say fainting will be removed! How's thy conversations given just for thee? Rest FILLED overflowing enough to quench many gnashing of Teeth separation from conversations with God of life for the living. Heirs will say required REST! Resting while moving forward. To remind and comes with comfort unto all the gnashing of teeth separation without rest! While HEIRS AND ANGELS KNOWS THE commands given since...
Passing on this one. Had enough of Goff. See y'all next time.
Just another human theory on the Meaning of life add it to the list. Nobody knows, Nobody ever will know.
You might find out when your dead or possibly not!
Just enjoy the dance.
It’s not inadequate too think the god of the Bible is nonsense
35:55 Thank you.
Why is Philip wearing lipstick?
It's just my natural beauty
The universe is too elegant, too meaningful, too rich to be here by chance. Without an intelligent first causation all is based on the first set due to have to rely on determinism ... and without a creator of any kind why that first set was there ? how it could have the deterministic ability to create a so rich experience ?
And where did your creator come from, then? At best this argument just kicks the can down the road a wee bit.
@@geordiedog1749 a consciousness out of time does not need a creator since it does not follow the flow of time. Also a consciousness can have an answer for that, randomness not .
@@francesco5581 With respect, sir, but that is just gobbledegook. It’s a mishmash of the Kalam and CS Lewis (or B S Lewis as I prefer:) and it’s nothing but pseudoscience, mysticism and old fish wives blether. Science, that’s the thing that makes the machine you’re reading this on work, gives us the best insight and it doesn’t include any evidence of being outside of time. It might be the case - I don’t know and neither do you - but there’s no evidence for what you say.
@@That-Bond-Babe OK. What bit is it that you have bother with? Obviously, being an astrophysicist helps here!:) I am not. Plus, I’m terrible at maths.
@@That-Bond-Babe Why? What is it about natural processes that you don't understand? Clearly, your choice of wording loads the meaning; a "canvas" has been "painted" is a phrase that suggests intention where there is no reason whatsoever to suppose any.
some of the ideas here are reminiscent of Robert Pirsig: 'The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower.'
The purpose of the Universe is to be the "body" of a living being.^
But for the fact that all indications are that the universe is entirely indifferent and purposeless, I'd agree with you.
Are you alive? Yes? Now, when you say you are alive, specifically WHAT do you claim is alive? Could you be alive without the rest of the universe? Nope. So yea, the purpose of the universe is to keep you alive. @@chikkipop
@@prestonbacchus4204 Oy. A comment so silly it doesn't even deserve the reply I just typed out.
Probably you do not understand. You live on earth. Earth is a planet in the Milky Way galaxy. The Milky Way galaxy is held together by the gravity and electromagnetism associated with the rest of the universe. In other words, you would not be alive or even have a body without the rest of the universe.@@chikkipop
@@prestonbacchus4204 Tell ya what. I'll just leave you with your comment and let you think some more about it. 😇
If I can choose heads or tails using a random number generator, I must have free will. My brain wouldn't make that choice normally, but I could, thus choose 100% without any clear other mind controlling me.
👍
Richard Dawkins can't explain everything?
I guess atheism is BS then
I wonder if Philip is working on his post retirement future with an eye on a Templeton Foundation chair somewhere. Maybe I'm being too cynical and unfair.
This guest is the kind of guy that makes people dislike philosophy by spewing a bunch of nonsense and pretending it's deep.
Asking "Why should we care about what we like?" is the same as asking 'why should we eat?' Because, if we didn't, we wouldn't be here to care about anything at all.
Waste of time. Couldn't finish it.
Yes, it was total nonsense.
woo woo nonsense
A few words (like a Chinese proverb) can sum up a situation much better than a 500 page book. "Shall we accept good from Elohim and not trouble/evil?" Job 2:10 (bible) and I am not even a Christian!
Didn’t care much his perspectives and found his delivery to be riddled with condescension and arrogance. Seems like his wish thinking is overriding his reason/logical thinking.
It all depends on what lens you are viewing things through. Utilitarianism is one of the better ideas society came up with. Unless your the poor bastard who’s being sacrificed for the greater good
The God of the gaps or the argument(s) of the gaps, the emperor/author has no clothes. 🤷♂️
It's impossible to watch this or anything else, bc of all the ads. YT has gone too far this time!
I agree; it's a black mark on what is otherwise a terrific interview.
Watch on google chrome on iphone. No ads ever.
Why bother about the end of the universe? Make your own life and enjoy what you like!
I like this one.
11:32 Ler friends be wrong.