Same for Eridan i guess? I think I can't help with Vriska as she got tons of help and people willing to do so, and we got one good Vriska who was later bullied by new Vriska
He should've been handled by a less cynical writer. Or Hussie should've just dropped the "haha! I'm gonna troll my readers!" -schtick, entirely. Sober Gamzee was never deep, he was meant to catch the readers off guard and nothing more! Basically Gamzee was turned into a twist-villain, in the worst possible way. You were MEANT to turn on him and that's why I hate how Gamzee went sober. If he was supposed to be something more than "haha, your favorite character was actually evil, the whole time! GOTCHA!" He wouldn't have killed anyone, without remorse. His friendships with the others wouldn't just have been thrown out of the window.
Honestly, I always felt deeply uncomfortable with the way Gamzee was treated by the narrative and this video really made me point down what was that, because at the time I could not understand what it was. Great video!!
I'm reading Homestuck for the first time, and I found myself really enjoying Gamzee as a character and weirdly relating to him a little bit. I don't know that much about the fandom but it makes me kinda sad that perception of him is mostly negative. This is a great video, I'm glad there are other people out there who enjoy the character!
Honestly despite all the problematics aspects I still see Gamzee as an extremely relatable character because alot of my thought processes are extremely similar to him and i feel a sort of comfort in seeing pretty much any scene with him because feeling like im able to relate to him makes me feel less isolated in a sort of sense
Gamzee was always my favorite and I hated how he was constantly mistreated by the author and the fandom. I related to him being a queer neurodivergent kid at the time and I kinda saw him as being Latino (considering clowns are very popular entertainers in Mexican culture and I myself am of mixed Latin heritage) but I definitely agree there was a lot of anti-blackness rolled up in his character and I want him to be given a sincere chance to heal. I know Hussie and his staff will never allow that to happen, but a girl can hope or write a fix-it fic.
i love homestuck, but its sad. So honestly i kinda like to pretend their all just silly preteens who simply are just silly kids who are NOT dead or very traumatized
I haven't watched this video quite yet but Gamzee is one of my favorite characters and it SUCKS how characters in Homestuck get treated with respect and dignity despite and throughout their addictions unless they're black-coded. The lalondes get SIGNIFICANT respect and are VERY well handled addiction narratives (to me at least) and Terezi gets treated with concern and respect and a "this isn't you" thing with her Own addiction plotline and Gamzee just becomes a punching bag for hussie. It sucks.
So inspiring! I've been dealing with gamzee as weird villain no one likes for so long due to the way the fandom perceives him that I had actually forgotten how tragic his life was, once you disregard the "well he is a drugged clown, he deserves to suffer right? :D" aspect of it. However he is at that tragic point where nor the author nor the fandom desire to explore the possibilites that entitles, what a shame, but "Doctor, He is Pagliacci" indeed. I really like your content, it's not easy to explore a new facet of Homestuck and having it actually make sense, great work!
thank you!! like we mentioned in the video, these aren't new ideas so much as stuff that has been overlooked by the fandom at large for years, but the point of this video was exactly what you said: introducing people who hadn't heard of them to these ideas. glad you enjoyed it :33 there is much more to come
The anthy, raven, and especially homura connection is expanding my mind in the best possible way, especially in the parallels found in the fandom’s general distaste for the extreme actions taken of traumatized children in their respective stories. Thank you for the video! It’s really important that stuff like this gets written.
This is giving me the courage to write the Gamzee fix-it fic I've dreamed about for years. I also would like to make a serious argument for classism as part of the way the narrative treats Gamzee. Despite his high-ranked caste, they're shown to live in relatively poor conditions and there's definitely intentional invocations of the 'white trash' (i hate that racist term but its one that has been used with Gamzee by the fandom so i'm using it to clarify my point.) cliche that is often unfairly assigned to both addicts and juggalo culture. Gamzee is treated as though his living conditions are somehow a moral failing - that they just need to 'try harder' and 'be better.' Growing up in a poor white family as the child of two addicts, a lot of the things said to and about Gamzee both in text and by fans was eerily familiar. It's only further compounded by their black-coding and i honestly think that some especially distasteful members of fandom tried to justify their racism by claiming 'juggalos are white trash!' so they didn't have to address the fact that gamzee is black-coded. There's also an extreme victim blaming angle when it comes to both the neglect from his lusus and the bullying (and sexual harassment from equius) that he received from the other trolls. When the fandom was in its hayday this was so bad that the victim blaming often spilled over to his fans culminating in gore spam and intentional triggering :( I'm not very good with my words, so if anyone reads this please let me know if i'm making sense.
Gamzee was automatically my favorite character when he was introduced and I'm glad that someone is finally putting him in a good light! I just wanna hug my perfect clown boyo :o3
Even though Anthy is villianized by the characters within RGU (and by the fans), in the end she is shown to be a victim deserving of love. I say "and by the fans" because "anthy was the real villian" or "akio didn't do anything wrong" was a disturbingly common sentiment back in the 2000s (hell I still see it sometimes). This is similar to how the homestuck fanbase has treated Gamzee. But does RGU itself treat Anthy the same way Homestuck treats Gamzee? This purely personal opinion, but I see Anthy's portrayal as empathetic and nuanced. By the end of RGU she frees herself from the coffin (her learned helplessness) and leaves Ohtori. Even though RGU can be difficult and even painful to watch at times, the ending Anthy is given is uplifting. She is free from Akio, she is leaving Ohtori, and she is going to find Utena, the first girl to genuinely care for her wellbeing. Very disturbing things happen to both anthy and utena during the events of RGU, but a lot happens off screen. This is a conscious attempt to not objectify them. If the directors had shown them in such a way it would be going against the very things RGU is meant to criticize. I don't think Gamzee (or any character or anything in Homestuck imo) is treated with such care. Gamzee's character essentially gets thrown into the garbage when hes locked in a fridge in act 6. Like stated in the video, Andrew hussie vehemently hates Gamzee despite writing him (see: homestuck book author commentary). The webcomic itself treats him like a joke character with no acknowledgement of his past traumas, struggles with substance abuse, and mental illness. I know this video didn't say that anthy is treated as a joke, but I think the difference in the way their narratives treat them should be acknowledged. Anyways sorry for rambling and thanks for this video. Love a good homestuck analysis that compares it w other media
i was always really attached to gamzee when i was really into homestuck but i could never articulate it! the way you broke down all of these aspects of gamzee was really helpful! :o) 💜
Gamzee is one of my favorite characters i’ve seen in any piece of media, and he’s been my favorite homestuck character for around a year now. This is a really great video that shows the flaws within his character and how people JUST see the bad in him! I’d love to see more videos, if you’re still active.
Gamzee could've worked far better, if Hussie didn't just retcon him being a sweetheart to everyone around him, into something along the lines of "t'was AAAALLL just an act, bro~" , when he got sober. as in "Gamzee's friendships were never genuine, he was just friendly, because he got stoned and would've killed every single one of his 'friends' with glee, if he would've always been sober from the beginning, LMAO!" this just felt like Hussie being spiteful, just for the sake of it. and the fandom being like: "nonono! it was Lil Cal who drove him mad! he DID care about his friends, at some point" seem to forget what kind of author Andrew Hussie is. so many plotpoints in this comic only exist, so Hussie could troll his own readers! and retconning a sweet and caring character into a total psycho, who was always evil, from the very beginning, just "because you can"?... yeah that seems really on-brand for Hussie.
@@avathorman5781 i haven't seen any hints of him being a "killer clown", ever before he got sober from Sopor-Slime. unless i'm mistaken. but remember: this is Hussie, we're talking about: he LOVES to mess with his audience, even at the sacrifice of the quality of his writing! At least that's what he used to do, back then.
@@avathorman5781 ...i don't think, they interacted that much, tbh. i mean, i could totally see the Chill Gamzee being a trio with Equius and Nepeta. But for that to happen, we would've needed a pre-established relationship between all 3 of them, including a friendship between Nepeta and Gamzee. And if you want that, you'd either have to look into fan-media or make your own fan-adventure, i'm afraid.
I just got into homestuck and didn't even get to the trolls yet but found out Gamzee is my patron troll, did a ton of research and I love em and their potential. sad that it seems people overlooked it also so glad that this video was made ONE MONTH AGO IN 2021 skndskndisnskskaks I feel less alone
i really love gamzee, not just cuz i kin him but i also cuz he is a pretty interesting and misunderstood character, i hate how hussie handled him post act 5. this is a very good video btw
Hot take: no matter how scary Sober Gamzee was, at first, it actually ruined his character, in hindsight. Gamzee's reason for killing is literally just "LMAO killer clown!" Gamzee's character-depth actually completely evaporated, as soon as he got sober. He was far deeper, when he was a total goofball, in my opinion. He had abandonment issues and underneath his chill and funny attitude was an underlying sorrow. There were ZERO hints that he was a relentless killer, if he didn't eat Sopor-pies all the time, prior to this. Karkat knew that he was a "high blood", literally everyone knew this and none of them ever said: "let's hope that he never goes sober or he'll turn against us" unless I'm mistaken.
oh my god i just realized. aranea had more foreshadowing and actual reason for her sudden face-heel turn. motherfucking aranea "game over" serket. this entire webcomic was just a really big one-off fluke huh
@@novameowww it's also funny how even the silliest characters of Problem Sleuth got treated more respectfully than most of the cast of Homestuck. And Problem Sleuth was far more comedic!
Oh hey welcome back to the vid!!! This video owes pretty much everything to black and nonblack nonbinary Gamzee fans who taught me a lot about Homestuck, and Gamzee is a cool enby in my book :3 the people who made this script possible are also writing Gamzee's route for the New Game Plus visual novel i'm directing if you want more good enby gamzee soon :33
this is a super interesting deepdive. as a white person with a middle-class upbringing, the black-coding for gamzee was extremely noticeable and the fact that he's addicted the substances and involved in a cult-like cause also wasn't lost on me. there's definitely room i think for cult membership and drug abuse to be explored in minorities, but it really wasn't played sympathetically in homestuck--like you guys said, it seemed more comical in gamzee's case. i was also astounded at the vitriol i've seen for gamzee, considering he was a manipulated and abused teen.
i personally attribute all the hatred on Gamzee, to being retconned into a one-dimensional villain, who "actually never cared about any of his friends". i'm not against Gamzee getting sober, i'm rather very much against writing Gamzee's friendships as a "mere result of being high". and the idea that Gamzee only gets calm around Karkat, because of "troll genetics" is just conceptually stupid. it feels like Hussie, trying to shove as many reasons as possible down your throat to NOT view Gamzee in any sort of sympathetic light, whatsoever. Gamzee's writing after act 5 just feels like: "Yeah you'd THINK that Gamzee genuinely cares and has some good in him... BUT ACTUALLY-" in hindsight, the scene where Gamzee just murders Equius and Nepeta without any remorse, is one of the worst scenes in the comic. not because it's badly executed, but because of the negative impact it had writing-wise, on the rest of the comic.
Looking back at Gamzee (and many other homestuck characters, but Gamzee is most relevant here,) there is a point where their suffering would have felt good to see in the text, many characters are driven to dark places and do horrible things in this comic, but there is also a point where that becomes wholly intolerable. Seeing Caliborn repeatedly beat upon Gamzee, seeing him riddle him with bullets and more, it does not make me laugh, it makes me hate Cal, gets me more thoroughly invested in despizing him just like the scene where he played chess, (but without _any_ of the admiration brought about by his rules-lawyering from that scene.) Did Gamzee hurt others horribly? Yes. That does not in any way reduce my sympathy for the clown, _especially_ since, in homestuck, death is essentially meaningless.
also I might be biased but I'd argue Twice also checks off the "gay or otherwise not straight criteria" due to all the scenes of him and Giran, as well as the cigarette detail
I was obsessed with Raven when I first watched Teen Titans- Teen Titans was my first big media hyperfixation & Raven my first big character hyperfixation, and Gamzee the most recent one, and I had never considered any paralells between them until I watched this. But when you explain it it makes sense. And it's just caused me to have another big revelation like months later lmao. If Raven is Gamzee then Robin is Karkat HEAR ME OUT ON THIS Firstly bc Raven & Robin are moirails (and if you watched Teen Titans and read Homestuck and don't see see this then you need to watch it again) but also because- he's the one that gets so neurotic trying to manage everything and everyone, the leadership/hero complex and the stress that comes from it, the stubbornness and impatience for when other people mess things up/Do Things Wrong, the way he cares too much, even Red (TM). Theyre literally the red and purple omfg. I color picked the shades of red and purple from the silhouettes in the Teen Titans intro and in the panel with Karkat and Gamzees silhouettes jumping at each other and its like. almost the same. And then with the End arc where shes locked in this "deal with the devil" situation Robin's the one that steps up to try to hold her back from it. It's like. Raven and Robin are the good ending. and Gamzee and Karkat are the bad ending. Does that make sense? like this is the same potential except one goes right and the other goes horribly wrong and the potential is wasted because hussie is a jerk. I think I might just be losing my mind?I think it might just be all the brainrot I have about both of them? All four of them? The moirallegiance brainrot that I've ALWAYS had even before I knew what moirallegiance was?? ughhh. someone tell me i'm not totally insane right now
oh god i just realized something else. robin has this sort of intensity that's almost always present, like he gets worked up about things and doesn't know how to chill, but it's relatively less dangerous compared to raven's. then raven has a much more dangerous intensity to her but it's almost always dormant, it only comes out once in a while but then when it does it's really bad. like normally shes totally calm but. buried deep under that shes ridiculously powerful and it scares people. something about kanaya's "dangerous people can be important" spiel and and and.... malchior's spiel about being powerful and different being seen as 'dark' or demonized.... can we add "really OP" to the list of gamzee traits? I HAVE BRAINROT
As someone majorly outside of fandom, I am disappointed to learn that fandom has such a boring and hateful interpretation of Gamzee. This video explores so many areas of Gamzee that I think often get overlooked but also things that I had never thought about when it comes to the character. The inability to die gives Gamzee a lot more depth, especially when that death is coming at the hands of the person he is meant to serve, and I am glad that you covered that. This was also the first time that I heard of Gamzee is black coded, I always saw him as the myriad of white juggalo bros that I knew from my teen years who had mastered the art of punching holes in the dry wall, but I am a white dude and people like me often don't catch things like black coding. I am so glad that you all are making this, you are making the kind of videos I wish I could make but am too scared to do.
I recently re-entered the fandom as an adult, and I'm astonished that I didn't realize he was black coded as a kid. I recently reread a lot and remembered all his dialogue and I was just like... Yeahhhhhh this is hussie trying to 'sound black' like a parody of aave.
anthy is indian y'all 💀i was just waiting like. no she's not black catch the bindi often on her and dio's forheads. it always irks me when ppl get her confused but besides that amazing video (so far lol haven't finished yet) ok edit after finishing: YES PINKIE'S BLACK. that's the other thing that irks me when they make her white like -_- she's got an afro open ur eyes thanks
Thank you for this video, This was actually an issue I had with Homestuck when I was reading it while it came out. Gamzee always felt like a victim of culture, like all the trolls were. He was handled like soo horribly, Gamzee and Karkat should have continued with thier Diamond relationship and figured things out, It always felt like it was over shadowed with Vriska and Terezi when honestly Gamzee overcoming the horrible "crown" of social demands of his being with the support of his friend and over coming would have been a great story to parallel with it. but nope Gamzee was just kinda thrown in the bad bin and ignored. Now don't get it twisted, Gamzee was just as bad as Vriska at that point (though we don't know if Gamzee had a childhood full of murdering countless others like Vriska did), but felt like Gamzee at least had a handle on things till finally he was kicked too far and broke after everything that happened.
Back when I first watched this video, I refused to acknowledge how genuinely amazingly written and awesome it is, because of hateful biases impressed upon me by my father. Disregard any of these previous, cringey, deluded, 15-year-old Savy comments. That part of me is long gone, and I've very happy to be the version I am now.
Hey, I’m really fuckin proud of you. It takes a lot of growth to be able to admit something like that, and I wish you much growth and prosperity and love.
You're very welcome! The person working on Act 8 right now, Momo, was invaluable to the process of making this video and I'm honored they let me use their art :)
I'm trying to apply these character analyses to Supernatural and this one is so hard lmao because 1) there are SO FEW NONWHITE PEOPLE IN SPN, and 2) EVERYONE is insane, has one or more "evil side"s, a connection to satanism, no concept of the fourth wall and an addiction to murder/blood/etc. this is a show where 2/3 OF THE MAIN CHARACTERS ARE THE GAMZEE *AND* THE VRISKA and they are THE TWO WHITEST MEN ALIVE. ....that being said, Billie is a pretty solid Gamzee in spn as well.
I'm not going to apologize for it,but Akechi Goro is a Gamzee.Points 1 and 2 apply(Even if he shouldn't be part of the police in the first place,dude is 17),4,5,6,7 as well ,can"t say one way or the other about 8,9 is also applicable,and 11 should be self explanatory to anyone who played P5.What gets me the most about Gamzees is how little agency they're often given.Gamzee gets stuck in a fridge,and is outright abused by Caliborn,something which apparently had to happen for the game to start in the first place,and Akechi could be killed at any point if he wasn't useful to Shido anymore,since he could just die outside of the metaverse.
i never thought i'd see the day when i'd start considering myself kinda like gamzee, and yet here i am. i'm now realizing how generally messed up i am which is uh,,, f u n
While I don't see gamzee as totally innocent (Optimistic duelist's vids on him and his arc are great) he's nonetheless a tragic character and arguably as deep and empathy worthy as all the other characters. Hussie and a lot of the fandom don't take him and his story seriously enough (Both haters and the 'gamzee is a pure innocent bean' crowd)
Shadowsight warrior cats checklist bc a few of them match up: Purple: I draw him with purple eyes so fuck you thats a yes for me "Oppressing himself": not really Meta knowledge: he is given a propecy no-one else knows in the first book of the arc so um *Yes.* Narrative punching bag: 100 percent yes. Unable to die: yeah hes died like twice now Too young for this trauma: abso-fucking-lutley Deal with the devil: maybe?? Ashfur is the one who gave him the propechy and hes the bad guy in the arc Black or black coded: not really hes a cat Homosexual: not cannonically but i wanna belive hes gay and in love with rootspring but im biased "Evil side": no but shadowsight is definetly mentally ill Happy but traumatized out of it: YES YES YES YES 100 TIMES YES.
Please please just play Persona 2 and think about Sudou for like 5 minutes and you'll realize what happened to Gamzee. He's just fucking Sudou Persona 2 but like younger.
Everything u guys say Is so fucking big brained, but I don’t know about the gay part, a lot of the characters and homestuck end up in gay relationships, but they’re not punished for it, so I guess I’m kind of confused what you’re trying to say?
The biggest piece of evidence I'd point out here is that the gamkar pale moment was retconned. There is a lot of homophobic language and acts thrown at the gay and bi men specifically (dave and Karkat never got together officially in the original comic, gamzee's attraction to tavros is played as a joke, rufioh and horrus' relationship is a Huge Joke, Horrus/Gamzee/Dirk all being portrayed as predators, etc). They're punished subtly, but it's there.
@@BlenditMedia Rufioh and Horuss' relationship is bad and toxic, that does not make it a joke. It's one of the most sincerely portrayed parts of the dancestor story. Which is noteworthy because the dancestor story itself is largely a joke. Dirk is absolutely not portrayed as a predator. He's portrayed as overbearingly clingy. Though Lil Hal is very predatory, and if you see him as part of Dirk then I suppose you can make that claim. They are two separate entities, but with Hal's insistence on presenting himself as the flesh Dirk, it can be difficult to separate their actions and words from each other. Dirk also thinks of himself as a predator, but his thoughts on the matter are unreliable because that kid hates himself so much he cannot conceive of the idea that he might not be a terrible person. Brain Ghost Dirk, who is a representation of Jake's subconscious, refers to himself as Jake's boyfriend after Dirk has already broken up with Jake, which shoots holes in the credibility of the idea that Jake was bullied into the relationship or that he didn't like Dirk. Dave coming to terms with his bisexuality is basically his main narrative arc and it was in progress long before the retcon (I'm pretty sure I can pinpoint the moment where his homophobia turns from a joke to undeniably an intentional aspect of his characterisation, and it's in Act 5 Act 2). Dave and Karkat not being mentioned as officially together is a result of Dave's lingering internalised homophobia, which will not allow him to reveal his relationship with Karkat to his friends, particularly John. It doesn't mean they weren't together, or that we're meant to infer any less, since one of Dave's last lines in the entire story is asking Dirk how to come out to his friends. And Karkat's last lines in the comic are a rambling monologue about Dave and how he hopes he's okay. It's also factually incorrect that Gamzee only exacts violence on others when mind-controlled. Though it can be argued that he is always under the influence of LE, so the distinction between mind-controlled and not mind-controlled is blurry. And for the record, I don't believe Gamzee is irredeemable. Up until I read in the Epilogues I was interested in the idea that he might get a redemption arc, but where I quit it seemed the Epilogues squandered that opportunity.
![How To Determine a Vantas [CC]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/jnPHBtaFEt8/mqdefault.jpg)
![How To Determine a Vantas [CC]](/img/tr.png)
If anyone acts up in the comments, your message will be deleted and you will be hidden from my channel forever :) no racism on this video!!
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Content Warning: Gamzee
Listen you always gotta be sure people know what they're getting into
honk.
@@Somoutogomea honk.
@@Einascherungspuppe :o)
@@Somoutogomea :o)
Gamzee is not a bad person he Is just misunderstood, also he is a CHILD. he should have had more help from his friends
Same for Eridan i guess? I think I can't help with Vriska as she got tons of help and people willing to do so, and we got one good Vriska who was later bullied by new Vriska
@@ShinyShilla(vriska) is the only true vriska i recognise
He should've been handled by a less cynical writer. Or Hussie should've just dropped the "haha! I'm gonna troll my readers!" -schtick, entirely.
Sober Gamzee was never deep, he was meant to catch the readers off guard and nothing more!
Basically Gamzee was turned into a twist-villain, in the worst possible way. You were MEANT to turn on him and that's why I hate how Gamzee went sober.
If he was supposed to be something more than "haha, your favorite character was actually evil, the whole time! GOTCHA!" He wouldn't have killed anyone, without remorse. His friendships with the others wouldn't just have been thrown out of the window.
Honestly, I always felt deeply uncomfortable with the way Gamzee was treated by the narrative and this video really made me point down what was that, because at the time I could not understand what it was. Great video!!
Thanks! Glad we could help clear stuff up :)
I'm reading Homestuck for the first time, and I found myself really enjoying Gamzee as a character and weirdly relating to him a little bit. I don't know that much about the fandom but it makes me kinda sad that perception of him is mostly negative. This is a great video, I'm glad there are other people out there who enjoy the character!
Honestly despite all the problematics aspects I still see Gamzee as an extremely relatable character because alot of my thought processes are extremely similar to him and i feel a sort of comfort in seeing pretty much any scene with him because feeling like im able to relate to him makes me feel less isolated in a sort of sense
im being serious when i say this too, literally EVERY seen with Gamzee, this includes murderstuck.
Autism
Gamzee was always my favorite and I hated how he was constantly mistreated by the author and the fandom. I related to him being a queer neurodivergent kid at the time and I kinda saw him as being Latino (considering clowns are very popular entertainers in Mexican culture and I myself am of mixed Latin heritage) but I definitely agree there was a lot of anti-blackness rolled up in his character and I want him to be given a sincere chance to heal. I know Hussie and his staff will never allow that to happen, but a girl can hope or write a fix-it fic.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one deep enough in gamzee brainrot to put him and Pinkie Pie in the same category
i love homestuck, but its sad. So honestly i kinda like to pretend their all just silly preteens who simply are just silly kids who are NOT dead or very traumatized
I haven't watched this video quite yet but Gamzee is one of my favorite characters and it SUCKS how characters in Homestuck get treated with respect and dignity despite and throughout their addictions unless they're black-coded. The lalondes get SIGNIFICANT respect and are VERY well handled addiction narratives (to me at least) and Terezi gets treated with concern and respect and a "this isn't you" thing with her Own addiction plotline and Gamzee just becomes a punching bag for hussie. It sucks.
So inspiring! I've been dealing with gamzee as weird villain no one likes for so long due to the way the fandom perceives him that I had actually forgotten how tragic his life was, once you disregard the "well he is a drugged clown, he deserves to suffer right? :D" aspect of it. However he is at that tragic point where nor the author nor the fandom desire to explore the possibilites that entitles, what a shame, but "Doctor, He is Pagliacci" indeed. I really like your content, it's not easy to explore a new facet of Homestuck and having it actually make sense, great work!
thank you!! like we mentioned in the video, these aren't new ideas so much as stuff that has been overlooked by the fandom at large for years, but the point of this video was exactly what you said: introducing people who hadn't heard of them to these ideas. glad you enjoyed it :33 there is much more to come
The anthy, raven, and especially homura connection is expanding my mind in the best possible way, especially in the parallels found in the fandom’s general distaste for the extreme actions taken of traumatized children in their respective stories. Thank you for the video! It’s really important that stuff like this gets written.
This is giving me the courage to write the Gamzee fix-it fic I've dreamed about for years.
I also would like to make a serious argument for classism as part of the way the narrative treats Gamzee. Despite his high-ranked caste, they're shown to live in relatively poor conditions and there's definitely intentional invocations of the 'white trash' (i hate that racist term but its one that has been used with Gamzee by the fandom so i'm using it to clarify my point.) cliche that is often unfairly assigned to both addicts and juggalo culture. Gamzee is treated as though his living conditions are somehow a moral failing - that they just need to 'try harder' and 'be better.' Growing up in a poor white family as the child of two addicts, a lot of the things said to and about Gamzee both in text and by fans was eerily familiar. It's only further compounded by their black-coding and i honestly think that some especially distasteful members of fandom tried to justify their racism by claiming 'juggalos are white trash!' so they didn't have to address the fact that gamzee is black-coded.
There's also an extreme victim blaming angle when it comes to both the neglect from his lusus and the bullying (and sexual harassment from equius) that he received from the other trolls. When the fandom was in its hayday this was so bad that the victim blaming often spilled over to his fans culminating in gore spam and intentional triggering :(
I'm not very good with my words, so if anyone reads this please let me know if i'm making sense.
If you ever write that fic, let us know. I would love to read it
Wait, Equius sexually harassed Gamzee?!
I'm so sorry for this but Mort from the madagascar franchise is a Gamzee
Gamzee was automatically my favorite character when he was introduced and I'm glad that someone is finally putting him in a good light! I just wanna hug my perfect clown boyo :o3
im scared uwu
@@Einascherungspuppe *g o o d*
@@Somoutogomea y e s
CLOWN BOYO 😭 -Gamzee
“Delicious. Finally, some good fucking food.”
I generally dislike homestuck now but my love for Gamzee still remains
Omg finally! I love gamzee so much and i get so mad at people just seen him as the "bad guy" "worst troll", lov the vid ❤️❤️🤡
glad you liked it!!! we are here for the clowns :o)
Everyone get into the clown car
I could weirdly relate to both gamzee and tavros so I hope (if you have not made it all ready) you make a video like this on tavros
We'll see..... };)
Even though Anthy is villianized by the characters within RGU (and by the fans), in the end she is shown to be a victim deserving of love. I say "and by the fans" because "anthy was the real villian" or "akio didn't do anything wrong" was a disturbingly common sentiment back in the 2000s (hell I still see it sometimes). This is similar to how the homestuck fanbase has treated Gamzee. But does RGU itself treat Anthy the same way Homestuck treats Gamzee? This purely personal opinion, but I see Anthy's portrayal as empathetic and nuanced. By the end of RGU she frees herself from the coffin (her learned helplessness) and leaves Ohtori. Even though RGU can be difficult and even painful to watch at times, the ending Anthy is given is uplifting. She is free from Akio, she is leaving Ohtori, and she is going to find Utena, the first girl to genuinely care for her wellbeing. Very disturbing things happen to both anthy and utena during the events of RGU, but a lot happens off screen. This is a conscious attempt to not objectify them. If the directors had shown them in such a way it would be going against the very things RGU is meant to criticize. I don't think Gamzee (or any character or anything in Homestuck imo) is treated with such care. Gamzee's character essentially gets thrown into the garbage when hes locked in a fridge in act 6. Like stated in the video, Andrew hussie vehemently hates Gamzee despite writing him (see: homestuck book author commentary). The webcomic itself treats him like a joke character with no acknowledgement of his past traumas, struggles with substance abuse, and mental illness. I know this video didn't say that anthy is treated as a joke, but I think the difference in the way their narratives treat them should be acknowledged.
Anyways sorry for rambling and thanks for this video. Love a good homestuck analysis that compares it w other media
i was always really attached to gamzee when i was really into homestuck but i could never articulate it! the way you broke down all of these aspects of gamzee was really helpful! :o) 💜
Gamzee is one of my favorite characters i’ve seen in any piece of media, and he’s been my favorite homestuck character for around a year now. This is a really great video that shows the flaws within his character and how people JUST see the bad in him! I’d love to see more videos, if you’re still active.
This video has been ghostwritten by Kankri
Gamzee could've worked far better, if Hussie didn't just retcon him being a sweetheart to everyone around him, into something along the lines of "t'was AAAALLL just an act, bro~" , when he got sober. as in "Gamzee's friendships were never genuine, he was just friendly, because he got stoned and would've killed every single one of his 'friends' with glee, if he would've always been sober from the beginning, LMAO!"
this just felt like Hussie being spiteful, just for the sake of it.
and the fandom being like: "nonono! it was Lil Cal who drove him mad! he DID care about his friends, at some point" seem to forget what kind of author Andrew Hussie is. so many plotpoints in this comic only exist, so Hussie could troll his own readers!
and retconning a sweet and caring character into a total psycho, who was always evil, from the very beginning, just "because you can"?... yeah that seems really on-brand for Hussie.
Wait, you’re saying that Gamzee was ALWAYS caring towards his friends BEFORE he got “retconned”?
Even when he wasn’t eating his Sopor Pies, not to mention?!
@@avathorman5781
i haven't seen any hints of him being a "killer clown", ever before he got sober from Sopor-Slime.
unless i'm mistaken.
but remember: this is Hussie, we're talking about: he LOVES to mess with his audience, even at the sacrifice of the quality of his writing! At least that's what he used to do, back then.
@@LegomicromanAnd did Gamzee and Nepeta really get along well? Please tell me they did.
@@avathorman5781 ...i don't think, they interacted that much, tbh.
i mean, i could totally see the Chill Gamzee being a trio with Equius and Nepeta. But for that to happen, we would've needed a pre-established relationship between all 3 of them, including a friendship between Nepeta and Gamzee.
And if you want that, you'd either have to look into fan-media or make your own fan-adventure, i'm afraid.
Amazing video !! Gamzee Understanders Rise Up
thank you!!! i'm glad you enjoyed it :)
I just got into homestuck and didn't even get to the trolls yet but found out Gamzee is my patron troll, did a ton of research and I love em and their potential. sad that it seems people overlooked it
also so glad that this video was made ONE MONTH AGO IN 2021 skndskndisnskskaks I feel less alone
Welcome to the fandom!! A lot of us are still here; there was even an online convention this past weekend called Stuck At Home Convention!
sahcon.com/
Sent here from the vriska video. I ever thought I needed itachi gamzee but here we are
you're welcome :o) (glad u enjoyed!!)
i really love gamzee, not just cuz i kin him but i also cuz he is a pretty interesting and misunderstood character, i hate how hussie handled him post act 5. this is a very good video btw
it hurts me seeing hussie wrangle gamzee like that, can't get my mind off them for a long time
Hot take: no matter how scary Sober Gamzee was, at first, it actually ruined his character, in hindsight.
Gamzee's reason for killing is literally just "LMAO killer clown!"
Gamzee's character-depth actually completely evaporated, as soon as he got sober. He was far deeper, when he was a total goofball, in my opinion.
He had abandonment issues and underneath his chill and funny attitude was an underlying sorrow.
There were ZERO hints that he was a relentless killer, if he didn't eat Sopor-pies all the time, prior to this.
Karkat knew that he was a "high blood", literally everyone knew this and none of them ever said: "let's hope that he never goes sober or he'll turn against us" unless I'm mistaken.
oh my god i just realized. aranea had more foreshadowing and actual reason for her sudden face-heel turn. motherfucking aranea "game over" serket.
this entire webcomic was just a really big one-off fluke huh
@@novameowww it's also funny how even the silliest characters of Problem Sleuth got treated more respectfully than most of the cast of Homestuck.
And Problem Sleuth was far more comedic!
my main clown man... gamzam maraca...
Goose Maraca
as a nb gamzee kinnie, you have no idea how happy it made me that you used they/them pronouns for gamzee
As a black, nb, neurodivergent, gamzee kinnie this entire video is amazing (I was raina gregory in the premiere chat)
Oh hey welcome back to the vid!!! This video owes pretty much everything to black and nonblack nonbinary Gamzee fans who taught me a lot about Homestuck, and Gamzee is a cool enby in my book :3 the people who made this script possible are also writing Gamzee's route for the New Game Plus visual novel i'm directing if you want more good enby gamzee soon :33
this is a super interesting deepdive. as a white person with a middle-class upbringing, the black-coding for gamzee was extremely noticeable and the fact that he's addicted the substances and involved in a cult-like cause also wasn't lost on me. there's definitely room i think for cult membership and drug abuse to be explored in minorities, but it really wasn't played sympathetically in homestuck--like you guys said, it seemed more comical in gamzee's case. i was also astounded at the vitriol i've seen for gamzee, considering he was a manipulated and abused teen.
i personally attribute all the hatred on Gamzee, to being retconned into a one-dimensional villain, who "actually never cared about any of his friends".
i'm not against Gamzee getting sober, i'm rather very much against writing Gamzee's friendships as a "mere result of being high". and the idea that Gamzee only gets calm around Karkat, because of "troll genetics" is just conceptually stupid. it feels like Hussie, trying to shove as many reasons as possible down your throat to NOT view Gamzee in any sort of sympathetic light, whatsoever.
Gamzee's writing after act 5 just feels like: "Yeah you'd THINK that Gamzee genuinely cares and has some good in him... BUT ACTUALLY-"
in hindsight, the scene where Gamzee just murders Equius and Nepeta without any remorse, is one of the worst scenes in the comic. not because it's badly executed, but because of the negative impact it had writing-wise, on the rest of the comic.
omg i have gotten so much shit from my friends for feeling bad for Gamzee. ;0; Thanks for making this vid!
You're welcome!!! Gamzee is a cool character who got absolutely crushed by the narrative. Please enjoy being clownliker (affectionate)
This made thoughts in my head make sense, genuinely thank you for this
Looking back at Gamzee (and many other homestuck characters, but Gamzee is most relevant here,) there is a point where their suffering would have felt good to see in the text, many characters are driven to dark places and do horrible things in this comic, but there is also a point where that becomes wholly intolerable.
Seeing Caliborn repeatedly beat upon Gamzee, seeing him riddle him with bullets and more, it does not make me laugh, it makes me hate Cal, gets me more thoroughly invested in despizing him just like the scene where he played chess, (but without _any_ of the admiration brought about by his rules-lawyering from that scene.)
Did Gamzee hurt others horribly? Yes.
That does not in any way reduce my sympathy for the clown, _especially_ since, in homestuck, death is essentially meaningless.
wooooah i loved this video sm these convos r very much needed !!!!!!!!
a good character analysis of both Gamzee AND Twice?? immediate like and sub
also I might be biased but I'd argue Twice also checks off the "gay or otherwise not straight criteria" due to all the scenes of him and Giran, as well as the cigarette detail
So that's why I related to gamzee (And probably tavros to an extent) and pinkie pie, and amethyst, so much growing up
6 Juggernaut Star Scours the Universe was such a surprise hit
I was obsessed with Raven when I first watched Teen Titans- Teen Titans was my first big media hyperfixation & Raven my first big character hyperfixation, and Gamzee the most recent one, and I had never considered any paralells between them until I watched this. But when you explain it it makes sense.
And it's just caused me to have another big revelation like months later lmao.
If Raven is Gamzee then Robin is Karkat HEAR ME OUT ON THIS
Firstly bc Raven & Robin are moirails (and if you watched Teen Titans and read Homestuck and don't see see this then you need to watch it again) but also because- he's the one that gets so neurotic trying to manage everything and everyone, the leadership/hero complex and the stress that comes from it, the stubbornness and impatience for when other people mess things up/Do Things Wrong, the way he cares too much, even Red (TM). Theyre literally the red and purple omfg. I color picked the shades of red and purple from the silhouettes in the Teen Titans intro and in the panel with Karkat and Gamzees silhouettes jumping at each other and its like. almost the same.
And then with the End arc where shes locked in this "deal with the devil" situation Robin's the one that steps up to try to hold her back from it.
It's like. Raven and Robin are the good ending. and Gamzee and Karkat are the bad ending. Does that make sense? like this is the same potential except one goes right and the other goes horribly wrong and the potential is wasted because hussie is a jerk.
I think I might just be losing my mind?I think it might just be all the brainrot I have about both of them? All four of them? The moirallegiance brainrot that I've ALWAYS had even before I knew what moirallegiance was?? ughhh. someone tell me i'm not totally insane right now
oh god i just realized something else. robin has this sort of intensity that's almost always present, like he gets worked up about things and doesn't know how to chill, but it's relatively less dangerous compared to raven's. then raven has a much more dangerous intensity to her but it's almost always dormant, it only comes out once in a while but then when it does it's really bad.
like normally shes totally calm but. buried deep under that shes ridiculously powerful and it scares people.
something about kanaya's "dangerous people can be important" spiel and and and.... malchior's spiel about being powerful and different being seen as 'dark' or demonized.... can we add "really OP" to the list of gamzee traits?
I HAVE BRAINROT
YOUR BRAINS ARE SO HUGEEEEE
Thank you!!! This is the result of several months of being lovingly infodumped to by my favorite clowns
Thank you for doing my baby boy Gamzee good lke this
Thank you :o)
:(
MEWTWO IS GAMZEE!!!!
I just realized that one of my OCs could be a Gamzee…
As A gAmZeE fIcTIve; ThANk yoU. I'm tIRed oF tHe cRAppY wAys mY sOuRCe, mE, aNd pEOplE whO reLaTE aRe sHOwN. /Gen -Gamzee
As someone majorly outside of fandom, I am disappointed to learn that fandom has such a boring and hateful interpretation of Gamzee. This video explores so many areas of Gamzee that I think often get overlooked but also things that I had never thought about when it comes to the character. The inability to die gives Gamzee a lot more depth, especially when that death is coming at the hands of the person he is meant to serve, and I am glad that you covered that. This was also the first time that I heard of Gamzee is black coded, I always saw him as the myriad of white juggalo bros that I knew from my teen years who had mastered the art of punching holes in the dry wall, but I am a white dude and people like me often don't catch things like black coding. I am so glad that you all are making this, you are making the kind of videos I wish I could make but am too scared to do.
I recently re-entered the fandom as an adult, and I'm astonished that I didn't realize he was black coded as a kid. I recently reread a lot and remembered all his dialogue and I was just like... Yeahhhhhh this is hussie trying to 'sound black' like a parody of aave.
Welp, thanks for making me care. : (
So is Damara also a Gamzee?
You know? Yes. Yes she is. Especially because they're both girls ♥
anthy is indian y'all 💀i was just waiting like. no she's not black catch the bindi often on her and dio's forheads. it always irks me when ppl get her confused but besides that amazing video (so far lol haven't finished yet)
ok edit after finishing: YES PINKIE'S BLACK. that's the other thing that irks me when they make her white like -_- she's got an afro open ur eyes thanks
what a good discussion of gamzee!!!
I love finding new Homestuck content creators. S/o to funk mclovin.
🥺 thank yoooooou
This was a lovely video.
Thank you!!!
Thank you for this video, This was actually an issue I had with Homestuck when I was reading it while it came out. Gamzee always felt like a victim of culture, like all the trolls were. He was handled like soo horribly, Gamzee and Karkat should have continued with thier Diamond relationship and figured things out, It always felt like it was over shadowed with Vriska and Terezi when honestly Gamzee overcoming the horrible "crown" of social demands of his being with the support of his friend and over coming would have been a great story to parallel with it. but nope Gamzee was just kinda thrown in the bad bin and ignored.
Now don't get it twisted, Gamzee was just as bad as Vriska at that point (though we don't know if Gamzee had a childhood full of murdering countless others like Vriska did), but felt like Gamzee at least had a handle on things till finally he was kicked too far and broke after everything that happened.
I just seen toki wartooth in the on the thumbnail of a homestuck video and I clicked on it
i am very co fused
Back when I first watched this video, I refused to acknowledge how genuinely amazingly written and awesome it is, because of hateful biases impressed upon me by my father. Disregard any of these previous, cringey, deluded, 15-year-old Savy comments.
That part of me is long gone, and I've very happy to be the version I am now.
Hey, I’m really fuckin proud of you. It takes a lot of growth to be able to admit something like that, and I wish you much growth and prosperity and love.
@BlendItMedia Wow, I never expected an actual response. Thank you for the kind words, I will take them to heart ❤️
I'd honestly even argue that Alastor and Blitzo are Gamzees for their respective media
hes just like me fr fr
Cutely walks in circles in pissy girl style*
gamzee
can anyone tell me where the picture of gamzee in the thumbnail is from?
From Act 8! Specifically this page: mspfa.com/?s=14278&p=141
@@BlenditMedia thanks!!
You're very welcome! The person working on Act 8 right now, Momo, was invaluable to the process of making this video and I'm honored they let me use their art :)
hOnK
idk :0)
Im surprised you didn't touch on the allegory of gamzee to hussie
For Beastars the bear Riz seems more like the intended gamzee-type in the narrative than Legoshi imo 🐻
I'm trying to apply these character analyses to Supernatural and this one is so hard lmao because 1) there are SO FEW NONWHITE PEOPLE IN SPN, and 2) EVERYONE is insane, has one or more "evil side"s, a connection to satanism, no concept of the fourth wall and an addiction to murder/blood/etc. this is a show where 2/3 OF THE MAIN CHARACTERS ARE THE GAMZEE *AND* THE VRISKA and they are THE TWO WHITEST MEN ALIVE. ....that being said, Billie is a pretty solid Gamzee in spn as well.
I'm not going to apologize for it,but Akechi Goro is a Gamzee.Points 1 and 2 apply(Even if he shouldn't be part of the police in the first place,dude is 17),4,5,6,7 as well ,can"t say one way or the other about 8,9 is also applicable,and 11 should be self explanatory to anyone who played P5.What gets me the most about Gamzees is how little agency they're often given.Gamzee gets stuck in a fridge,and is outright abused by Caliborn,something which apparently had to happen for the game to start in the first place,and Akechi could be killed at any point if he wasn't useful to Shido anymore,since he could just die outside of the metaverse.
mmm.. clown
honk :o)
i never thought i'd see the day when i'd start considering myself kinda like gamzee, and yet here i am. i'm now realizing how generally messed up i am which is uh,,, f u n
my favorite sg character is a gamzee, damn
kaworu nge is a somewhat gamzee............
While I don't see gamzee as totally innocent (Optimistic duelist's vids on him and his arc are great) he's nonetheless a tragic character and arguably as deep and empathy worthy as all the other characters. Hussie and a lot of the fandom don't take him and his story seriously enough (Both haters and the 'gamzee is a pure innocent bean' crowd)
Shadowsight warrior cats checklist bc a few of them match up:
Purple: I draw him with purple eyes so fuck you thats a yes for me
"Oppressing himself": not really
Meta knowledge: he is given a propecy no-one else knows in the first book of the arc so um *Yes.*
Narrative punching bag: 100 percent yes.
Unable to die: yeah hes died like twice now
Too young for this trauma: abso-fucking-lutley
Deal with the devil: maybe?? Ashfur is the one who gave him the propechy and hes the bad guy in the arc
Black or black coded: not really hes a cat
Homosexual: not cannonically but i wanna belive hes gay and in love with rootspring but im biased
"Evil side": no but shadowsight is definetly mentally ill
Happy but traumatized out of it: YES YES YES YES 100 TIMES YES.
I don't get it
ur mom
honk.
Clown
@@Somoutogomea honk
@@CircusSabre clown
Hi, the Daft and Momo thing about how to write Gamzee respectfully is now an error 404. Is there another link to where I can find it?
Please please just play Persona 2 and think about Sudou for like 5 minutes and you'll realize what happened to Gamzee. He's just fucking Sudou Persona 2 but like younger.
Everything u guys say Is so fucking big brained, but I don’t know about the gay part, a lot of the characters and homestuck end up in gay relationships, but they’re not punished for it, so I guess I’m kind of confused what you’re trying to say?
The biggest piece of evidence I'd point out here is that the gamkar pale moment was retconned. There is a lot of homophobic language and acts thrown at the gay and bi men specifically (dave and Karkat never got together officially in the original comic, gamzee's attraction to tavros is played as a joke, rufioh and horrus' relationship is a Huge Joke, Horrus/Gamzee/Dirk all being portrayed as predators, etc). They're punished subtly, but it's there.
@@BlenditMedia Rufioh and Horuss' relationship is bad and toxic, that does not make it a joke. It's one of the most sincerely portrayed parts of the dancestor story. Which is noteworthy because the dancestor story itself is largely a joke.
Dirk is absolutely not portrayed as a predator. He's portrayed as overbearingly clingy. Though Lil Hal is very predatory, and if you see him as part of Dirk then I suppose you can make that claim. They are two separate entities, but with Hal's insistence on presenting himself as the flesh Dirk, it can be difficult to separate their actions and words from each other. Dirk also thinks of himself as a predator, but his thoughts on the matter are unreliable because that kid hates himself so much he cannot conceive of the idea that he might not be a terrible person. Brain Ghost Dirk, who is a representation of Jake's subconscious, refers to himself as Jake's boyfriend after Dirk has already broken up with Jake, which shoots holes in the credibility of the idea that Jake was bullied into the relationship or that he didn't like Dirk.
Dave coming to terms with his bisexuality is basically his main narrative arc and it was in progress long before the retcon (I'm pretty sure I can pinpoint the moment where his homophobia turns from a joke to undeniably an intentional aspect of his characterisation, and it's in Act 5 Act 2). Dave and Karkat not being mentioned as officially together is a result of Dave's lingering internalised homophobia, which will not allow him to reveal his relationship with Karkat to his friends, particularly John. It doesn't mean they weren't together, or that we're meant to infer any less, since one of Dave's last lines in the entire story is asking Dirk how to come out to his friends. And Karkat's last lines in the comic are a rambling monologue about Dave and how he hopes he's okay.
It's also factually incorrect that Gamzee only exacts violence on others when mind-controlled. Though it can be argued that he is always under the influence of LE, so the distinction between mind-controlled and not mind-controlled is blurry. And for the record, I don't believe Gamzee is irredeemable. Up until I read in the Epilogues I was interested in the idea that he might get a redemption arc, but where I quit it seemed the Epilogues squandered that opportunity.