💡Generative AI tools like Microsoft 365 Copilot offer amazing potential for businesses. 🛑But are you using them in a way that keeps you and your business safe? 👉Check out our new course Responsible AI for Business Users where you will learn why AI gets stuff wrong and what to do about it alongside many of the other risks of using these tools! learn.brightideas.agency/courses/responsibleai
I just drafted dozens and dozens of docs for a new project in Loop. Was impressed. But in the end, when it came down to it, I decided I couldn't trust it and started moving all into OneNote. Because when I release the project to the team, and they take their cue from me and start adding their own components, I have no way of knowing where those components started off, are stored, and ultimately how much I can rely on them to never disappear with crucial information. People leaving the company, IT changing retention policies. Can't risk it. I NEED the parts consolidated in one location.
I've tried both and (Loop and OneNote) and cannot get away with either of them. I find Obsidian to be amazing, though, especially the graph view of the linkages. This lends an extra level to the organisation, especially when it comes to things like designing databases or similar structural linkages.
Very True. Sometimes I feel I am missing some data too or when I copy data comp from page to page as some nested info does not get copy like: 1. comments inside lists 2. Open Details View Row within DataGrid but it is amazing still, I think it is very powerful idea shareable comp, however we should not be using loop heavily as still in beta
I work in an organization where the 80/20 rule of software utilization (80% of users only take advantage of 20% of an application or platform's capabilities) is practically law. I see a small handful of people making effective use of the Loop app, but I know quite lot who are using Loop components. The integration between the Tasks component and Planner makes it an obvious choice for creating and assigning action items in meetings. The list components are fantastic for (as you demonstrate) crowd-sourcing meeting agendas. So, in our org (and I'd wager many others), it's going to take folks a few years to really utilize Loop components, by which time a lot of the shortcomings will have been addressed. Now, I'm not saying that MS shouldn't have held out a bit on the Loop app and waited until it was more fully-developed. Chances are, as you imply, there will be people who try it, hit a wall due to a missing capability, and never come back. But, that's true of any technology. Personally, I'm more annoyed by other "barely finished yet generally available" updates (like the AI-powered flow editor) than an app that barely anyone is going to use.
Thanks for watching. Eventually the industry might find a balance between Google’s approach of “in beta for years at a time” and Microsoft’s “any level of available is generally good enough”. Until then this will continue to be a problem.
Maybe. I’m not sure the tool itself is necessarily going to reduce organization, but on a company-wide basis the management limitations of the technology may well do. Thanks for watching.
I'm not a fan of Loop Components for the very simple reason is it doesn't prevent duplication of effort or data. It is also really easy to create Loop Components and not be able to find them again, and because they don't have a name, what do you search for? These problems become clearer the more Loop Components you create; very quickly, you can find that the Loop App can get overloaded and attempts to become better organised subside because you cannot see what is connected to what with any ease. Notion also hadn't solved this problem but made it easier to find Databases by naming them and the ability to use Tags, so with just a small amount of discipline, you can see all the databases you are authorised to see. However, Apps like Coda are far more mature at handling data, with the ability to create relationships between databases and so offer the small business owner a much easier and cheaper way to organise data. For now Loop isn't ready to handle anything more than a simple list.
Thanks for watching. Managing components at scale is not something I had considered as a significant problem but I think you’re probably right. Can you share more of your experience on this?
I love loop. The solution is only 3 months old given the open access date and it really shines. I have trust that the issues you mention will soon be resolved especially the access to externals. It would be intresting to see how Loop components can be created or edited by tapping into automation via access in MS Graph and possibly PowerAutomate later on. AI integration might soon give us search feedback of loop components and even become a boilerplate or Scafolding tool for Loop Workspaces.
Thanks for watching. I agree that these issues will probably be resolved… but I firmly believe the period during which to resolve such issues is before general release. I’m not holding my breath on any useful API for this either, unless I’ve missed something nothing has been announced to date. I hope things continue to develop quickly.
I could not agree more. Well said and thought out. Integration is definitely the key to this, not just fancy tools. I would have thought that Ms would have integrated Loop directly with SharePoint (the collaborative nature being a big hint in its name...).
Loop (the app) works with SharePoint embedded. I think this different approach is perhaps at the core of some of the confused implementation outside of the app itself.
The limitations involved with external O365 tenants is not at all surprising or unusual. Unfettered exchange between separate tenants ARE a security issue. Just ask an InfoSec professional at bank, or any other enterprise business. This is ESPECIALLY concerning with an app as openly "promiscuous" as MS Loop. The opportunities to inadvertently create a privacy or security incident by sharing (leaking) confidential notes, documents, contact info, login credentials, or business relationship changes with through external tenants is very real and needs to be dealt with VERY carefully.
Why would you leave one note? The loop components are great for linking OneNote to other things but it can’t replace OneNote. There’s just not enough functionality.
True, the lack of possibility to share in an easy manner with externals is a pain. You can add them manually as viewers on loop, but haven't been able to get them to see any Loop content when not on our tenant. However, if they go on your tenant, then they can read/write on Loop pages.
Thank you very very much for this video. Because of your measured and thorough review I can explore Loop and know what issues I'm going to run into. Right now, Loop seems to be the best compromise between what my team needs and asking my team to learn another app.
I thought this video was helpful and insightful. It also put words to what had been bothering me about Loop that I couldn’t articulate. Nevertheless, I’m going to see if my business can exploit Loop in other ways: ways that maybe Microsoft did not advertise or intend. That’s the real fun with new tech anyway; you get it to do something unexpected!
I think the pros in general would be cost. Microsoft has created a dependency on its array of suites that companies who are traditional and working on a strict budget would rather work on that series of suite based on one paid subscription without worrying about paying for other 3rd party apps.
Loops integration with SPO is frustrating me and emerging adopters. No one wants to ‘own’ Loop Workspaces, with the risk of critical businesses collaboration information disappearing when they leave the company. It’s also failing with surfacing Loop content in SPO site pages. This is a significant design flaw.
Thanks for a useful summary. Loop and a 'fluid framework' promise much, however from personal experience the unreliability of synchronisation between Planner tasks and their instantiation as Loop components mean Loop is 'one to watch' for the future but not quite ready for prime time.
I fully agree with your point of view. The feature looks attractive initially but there is a lot of friction about deciding which app is best for each usage case when using the loop app in a productivity system. The purpose of the app and its integration in the Microsoft ecosystem system is not clear
You have a lot of valid points there at this point in time. I still have architectural issues with the way Teams was setup and works. You didn't mention the fact that we still don't have any admin tools for loop workspaces. Looks like Microsoft went off on a journey but without a map. That said the Loop team have asked for feedback a lot over the past few years. At the end of the day it is a long journey to get to that maturity of a product where it does what it set out to do. One keep element is the reduction of context switching and reduced duplication of information. The speed at which this has been going has been really slow regarding what I would call the fundamentals. I would rather they focused on getting the basics right. Least we forget it has taken decades to get most of the Office apps to where they are today.
Thanks for watching. Recently, for many apps, this is largely true. I do think the pace of significant change is making it harder to keep track of what should be where though.
Thanks for watching. I appreciate your different opinion, but it is not correct to suggest all the limitations highlighted were resolved or pre-announced. Many issues such as the governance of Loop assets continue to need robust resolutions that do not entirely exist at this point. This is important for organizations choosing to use these tools to know.
have you heard of "perfectionists".. This is what this video sounds like :) - Loop is indeed pretty useful in its current form. Is it perfect? NO.. will it ever be perfect? NO .. Progress over perfection is a better approach -- almost always -- ... And you Should never ever use a tool based on how enriched it looks with its features. It should all depend on the value it's bringing to the team/org. I see Loop still brings a ton of value for the majority of O365 users in typical mid/large-size organizations.
Thanks for watching. If expecting a set of integrated tools gets common management and collaboration features is perfectionism, then I guess I’m a perfectionist.
@@brightideasagency many features in there def provide excellent collaboration opportunities. of course, it does not cover all aspects and should be evaluated based on specific needs and value analysis (true for any tool). It may not work for some but it does work for many. (like any other tool). It has room to improve- absolutely and some of your suggestions are great and will be useful for many use-cases. But i still think it has a lot for many.
Does Microsoft ever fix anything? There are problems with Excel that have been driving me crazy for 30 years. They are the equivalent of a textbook publisher who changes things just enough to force everyone to buy new, whether the changes have improved anything or not.
I think yes, they do. There are definitely for example aspects of the new Teams app that respond to previous issues and user feedback. However, there are so many features, unless your pet broken feature is someone's priority to fix, it can take a while (perhaps 30 years).
I also wonder about Mac integration. Microsoft/Apple haven’t fixed an at least ten year old bug that displays all Exchange contact’s birthdays off by a day. Outlook for Mac is simply not a replacement for the native apps.
@@brightideasagency Was trying out the workspace, could not delete one without an error message. Then I was thinking, ok.. the obvious use case is to link it to a meeting of Outlook or a mail, create something out of a mail. How to do that? I would expect to have something like my calendar shown there with the recent Teams meetings or tasks... Nothing. My problem is that MS is doing a lot of small apps to cover one side of the problem but they don't seem to be properly integrated together. It's a patchwork of mediocre tools acting like empty shells with a nice pink-blue gradient. I have to deal with other tools of the set: Viva Goals (meh..), Azure Devops (is quite catastrophic compared to Jira), ...
Yes, Loop integration is indeed a patchwork. There are new experiences powered by Copilot where the right solution is a Loop component (meeting agenda for example) where this isn’t the output that gets created. For Loop to work it must be much more seamlessly integrated across M365
A small suggestion. You might want to consider recording sitting a lower backed chair. Maybe it's just me, but I find it distracting trying to figure out if you have a superhero neck, or is it just your chair. LOL!
Having a manager who loves Onenote when I have a real dislike from the day it was realised, creating text boxes? Really? So early 2000's. So where is the backend file that stores the data, is it the same as Onenote? What if the creator of an entry works of USB? Or deletes it by accident. So much that hasn't been thought through. Onenote was a poor excuse for note taking app and MS could have done so much better.
If the only place you have your files is on a USB stick then you’re asking for trouble whether it’s Word docs or a OneNote notebooks - it’s the storage that’s the issue not the file format. What solution do you use? I like OneNote and use it daily.
The intent is certainly similar, but the execution much more aligned with where we stand now in terms of web technology primacy. Loop/Fluid as a generalized tooling, probably has a lot more to offer than OLE if deeply integrated into each app. The execution of it in building a new Loop app and seemingly de-prioritizing the broad and equal integration across M365 is where I see the misstep. And several months on from this video, and post the announcement of Loop-based Copilot Pages, my concerns remain substantially the same.
It’ll be quietly killed off in the next reorg/rebrand. The #1 enemy of fancy collab apps is email attachments. The vast majority of M365 users can barely share OneDrive folders, they simply don’t care about elegant abstractions. Slack took off because it offered users a paradigm they were already familiar with, texting. Loop is a bridge too far.
💡Generative AI tools like Microsoft 365 Copilot offer amazing potential for businesses. 🛑But are you using them in a way that keeps you and your business safe? 👉Check out our new course Responsible AI for Business Users where you will learn why AI gets stuff wrong and what to do about it alongside many of the other risks of using these tools! learn.brightideas.agency/courses/responsibleai
I just drafted dozens and dozens of docs for a new project in Loop. Was impressed. But in the end, when it came down to it, I decided I couldn't trust it and started moving all into OneNote. Because when I release the project to the team, and they take their cue from me and start adding their own components, I have no way of knowing where those components started off, are stored, and ultimately how much I can rely on them to never disappear with crucial information. People leaving the company, IT changing retention policies. Can't risk it. I NEED the parts consolidated in one location.
I've tried both and (Loop and OneNote) and cannot get away with either of them. I find Obsidian to be amazing, though, especially the graph view of the linkages. This lends an extra level to the organisation, especially when it comes to things like designing databases or similar structural linkages.
Very True.
Sometimes I feel I am missing some data too or when I copy data comp from page to page as some nested info does not get copy like:
1. comments inside lists
2. Open Details View Row within DataGrid
but it is amazing still, I think it is very powerful idea shareable comp, however we should not be using loop heavily as still in beta
So refreshing to get a nuanced and intellectually curious product review. Thank you!
Thanks for watching. Your feedback is appreciated.
I work in an organization where the 80/20 rule of software utilization (80% of users only take advantage of 20% of an application or platform's capabilities) is practically law. I see a small handful of people making effective use of the Loop app, but I know quite lot who are using Loop components. The integration between the Tasks component and Planner makes it an obvious choice for creating and assigning action items in meetings. The list components are fantastic for (as you demonstrate) crowd-sourcing meeting agendas. So, in our org (and I'd wager many others), it's going to take folks a few years to really utilize Loop components, by which time a lot of the shortcomings will have been addressed.
Now, I'm not saying that MS shouldn't have held out a bit on the Loop app and waited until it was more fully-developed. Chances are, as you imply, there will be people who try it, hit a wall due to a missing capability, and never come back. But, that's true of any technology. Personally, I'm more annoyed by other "barely finished yet generally available" updates (like the AI-powered flow editor) than an app that barely anyone is going to use.
Thanks for watching. Eventually the industry might find a balance between Google’s approach of “in beta for years at a time” and Microsoft’s “any level of available is generally good enough”. Until then this will continue to be a problem.
My initial thoughts; loop will make disorganised staff slightly more organised and highly organised staff less organised. 😂
Maybe. I’m not sure the tool itself is necessarily going to reduce organization, but on a company-wide basis the management limitations of the technology may well do. Thanks for watching.
I'm not a fan of Loop Components for the very simple reason is it doesn't prevent duplication of effort or data.
It is also really easy to create Loop Components and not be able to find them again, and because they don't have a name, what do you search for?
These problems become clearer the more Loop Components you create; very quickly, you can find that the Loop App can get overloaded and attempts to become better organised subside because you cannot see what is connected to what with any ease.
Notion also hadn't solved this problem but made it easier to find Databases by naming them and the ability to use Tags, so with just a small amount of discipline, you can see all the databases you are authorised to see.
However, Apps like Coda are far more mature at handling data, with the ability to create relationships between databases and so offer the small business owner a much easier and cheaper way to organise data.
For now Loop isn't ready to handle anything more than a simple list.
Thanks for watching. Managing components at scale is not something I had considered as a significant problem but I think you’re probably right. Can you share more of your experience on this?
I love loop. The solution is only 3 months old given the open access date and it really shines. I have trust that the issues you mention will soon be resolved especially the access to externals. It would be intresting to see how Loop components can be created or edited by tapping into automation via access in MS Graph and possibly PowerAutomate later on. AI integration might soon give us search feedback of loop components and even become a boilerplate or Scafolding tool for Loop Workspaces.
Thanks for watching. I agree that these issues will probably be resolved… but I firmly believe the period during which to resolve such issues is before general release. I’m not holding my breath on any useful API for this either, unless I’ve missed something nothing has been announced to date. I hope things continue to develop quickly.
I could not agree more. Well said and thought out. Integration is definitely the key to this, not just fancy tools. I would have thought that Ms would have integrated Loop directly with SharePoint (the collaborative nature being a big hint in its name...).
Loop (the app) works with SharePoint embedded. I think this different approach is perhaps at the core of some of the confused implementation outside of the app itself.
@@brightideasagency - I do see all of this as a way of anchoring users to Ms products. I've been feeling pretty anti-Ms lately... 🤔
Thanks for confirming it only works in my tenant, outsiders not so much.
The limitations involved with external O365 tenants is not at all surprising or unusual.
Unfettered exchange between separate tenants ARE a security issue. Just ask an InfoSec professional at bank, or any other enterprise business.
This is ESPECIALLY concerning with an app as openly "promiscuous" as MS Loop. The opportunities to inadvertently create a privacy or security incident by sharing (leaking) confidential notes, documents, contact info, login credentials, or business relationship changes with through external tenants is very real and needs to be dealt with VERY carefully.
Why would you leave one note? The loop components are great for linking OneNote to other things but it can’t replace OneNote. There’s just not enough functionality.
It seems likely this will be the direction in the long term. Remember when the simpler new OneNote app was going to be its replacement?
True, the lack of possibility to share in an easy manner with externals is a pain. You can add them manually as viewers on loop, but haven't been able to get them to see any Loop content when not on our tenant.
However, if they go on your tenant, then they can read/write on Loop pages.
Thanks for watching and for your input on this topic.
Thank you very very much for this video. Because of your measured and thorough review I can explore Loop and know what issues I'm going to run into. Right now, Loop seems to be the best compromise between what my team needs and asking my team to learn another app.
Glad it was useful. Thanks for watching and good luck with Loop.
I thought this video was helpful and insightful. It also put words to what had been bothering me about Loop that I couldn’t articulate. Nevertheless, I’m going to see if my business can exploit Loop in other ways: ways that maybe Microsoft did not advertise or intend. That’s the real fun with new tech anyway; you get it to do something unexpected!
Thanks for watching. I think that’s a good approach to take on this, it’s how we discover the best use cases.
Is there an analog clock with a second hand in the room with you? In the background I hear what sounds like a second hand clicking/sweeping around.
No. No clocks. Thanks for watching.
I think the pros in general would be cost. Microsoft has created a dependency on its array of suites that companies who are traditional and working on a strict budget would rather work on that series of suite based on one paid subscription without worrying about paying for other 3rd party apps.
This is a terrific assessment of Loop today.
Thanks for watching and for your feedback on this.
Loops integration with SPO is frustrating me and emerging adopters. No one wants to ‘own’ Loop Workspaces, with the risk of critical businesses collaboration information disappearing when they leave the company. It’s also failing with surfacing Loop content in SPO site pages. This is a significant design flaw.
I agree. Thanks for watching and sharing your experiences.
Thanks for a useful summary. Loop and a 'fluid framework' promise much, however from personal experience the unreliability of synchronisation between Planner tasks and their instantiation as Loop components mean Loop is 'one to watch' for the future but not quite ready for prime time.
Thanks for watching. I agree, much promise.
Great insight! Thank you.
Thanks for watching.
I fully agree with your point of view. The feature looks attractive initially but there is a lot of friction about deciding which app is best for each usage case when using the loop app in a productivity system. The purpose of the app and its integration in the Microsoft ecosystem system is not clear
You have a lot of valid points there at this point in time.
I still have architectural issues with the way Teams was setup and works.
You didn't mention the fact that we still don't have any admin tools for loop workspaces.
Looks like Microsoft went off on a journey but without a map. That said the Loop team have asked for feedback a lot over the past few years.
At the end of the day it is a long journey to get to that maturity of a product where it does what it set out to do.
One keep element is the reduction of context switching and reduced duplication of information.
The speed at which this has been going has been really slow regarding what I would call the fundamentals. I would rather they focused on getting the basics right.
Least we forget it has taken decades to get most of the Office apps to where they are today.
Very helpful, thank you
Thanks for watching.
Microsoft have two types of product: beta, and obsolete - nothing ever changes
Thanks for watching. Recently, for many apps, this is largely true. I do think the pace of significant change is making it harder to keep track of what should be where though.
Only a pokemon OG knows that in the ancient texts it once said: "Gotta Catch 'Em All"
😂
Please don't add background music, it is just an irritating distraction.
Thanks for the feedback
the criticisms were a bit silly, this all came and more and it was well announced....
Thanks for watching. I appreciate your different opinion, but it is not correct to suggest all the limitations highlighted were resolved or pre-announced. Many issues such as the governance of Loop assets continue to need robust resolutions that do not entirely exist at this point. This is important for organizations choosing to use these tools to know.
have you heard of "perfectionists".. This is what this video sounds like :) - Loop is indeed pretty useful in its current form. Is it perfect? NO.. will it ever be perfect? NO .. Progress over perfection is a better approach -- almost always -- ... And you Should never ever use a tool based on how enriched it looks with its features. It should all depend on the value it's bringing to the team/org. I see Loop still brings a ton of value for the majority of O365 users in typical mid/large-size organizations.
Thanks for watching. If expecting a set of integrated tools gets common management and collaboration features is perfectionism, then I guess I’m a perfectionist.
@@brightideasagency many features in there def provide excellent collaboration opportunities. of course, it does not cover all aspects and should be evaluated based on specific needs and value analysis (true for any tool). It may not work for some but it does work for many. (like any other tool). It has room to improve- absolutely and some of your suggestions are great and will be useful for many use-cases. But i still think it has a lot for many.
Good to see Holly from Red Dwarf getting work these days
Which one?
@@brightideasagency 🤦
Does Microsoft ever fix anything? There are problems with Excel that have been driving me crazy for 30 years. They are the equivalent of a textbook publisher who changes things just enough to force everyone to buy new, whether the changes have improved anything or not.
I think yes, they do. There are definitely for example aspects of the new Teams app that respond to previous issues and user feedback. However, there are so many features, unless your pet broken feature is someone's priority to fix, it can take a while (perhaps 30 years).
I also wonder about Mac integration. Microsoft/Apple haven’t fixed an at least ten year old bug that displays all Exchange contact’s birthdays off by a day. Outlook for Mac is simply not a replacement for the native apps.
This app still sucks after 7 months. It's badly implemented, full of issues, not well-thought...
What are the main issues you have experienced?
@@brightideasagency Was trying out the workspace, could not delete one without an error message. Then I was thinking, ok.. the obvious use case is to link it to a meeting of Outlook or a mail, create something out of a mail. How to do that? I would expect to have something like my calendar shown there with the recent Teams meetings or tasks... Nothing. My problem is that MS is doing a lot of small apps to cover one side of the problem but they don't seem to be properly integrated together. It's a patchwork of mediocre tools acting like empty shells with a nice pink-blue gradient. I have to deal with other tools of the set: Viva Goals (meh..), Azure Devops (is quite catastrophic compared to Jira), ...
Yes, Loop integration is indeed a patchwork. There are new experiences powered by Copilot where the right solution is a Loop component (meeting agenda for example) where this isn’t the output that gets created. For Loop to work it must be much more seamlessly integrated across M365
A small suggestion. You might want to consider recording sitting a lower backed chair. Maybe it's just me, but I find it distracting trying to figure out if you have a superhero neck, or is it just your chair. LOL!
Thanks for watching. It may well be just you, but regardless, my chair is comfortable. 😂
Having a manager who loves Onenote when I have a real dislike from the day it was realised, creating text boxes? Really? So early 2000's.
So where is the backend file that stores the data, is it the same as Onenote? What if the creator of an entry works of USB? Or deletes it by accident. So much that hasn't been thought through. Onenote was a poor excuse for note taking app and MS could have done so much better.
If the only place you have your files is on a USB stick then you’re asking for trouble whether it’s Word docs or a OneNote notebooks - it’s the storage that’s the issue not the file format. What solution do you use? I like OneNote and use it daily.
One Note poor excuse for a note taking app? Seriously have u just come back from a jolly
Loop: OLE wine in a new bottle. OLE, PubSub, OpenDoc, the dream of one container to rule them all never dies.
The intent is certainly similar, but the execution much more aligned with where we stand now in terms of web technology primacy. Loop/Fluid as a generalized tooling, probably has a lot more to offer than OLE if deeply integrated into each app. The execution of it in building a new Loop app and seemingly de-prioritizing the broad and equal integration across M365 is where I see the misstep. And several months on from this video, and post the announcement of Loop-based Copilot Pages, my concerns remain substantially the same.
It’ll be quietly killed off in the next reorg/rebrand. The #1 enemy of fancy collab apps is email attachments. The vast majority of M365 users can barely share OneDrive folders, they simply don’t care about elegant abstractions. Slack took off because it offered users a paradigm they were already familiar with, texting. Loop is a bridge too far.