Originally published in Creation 8, no 2 (March 1986): 17-20. There is an interesting prophecy in 2 Peter 3 concerning the last days of this earth’s history, and it very much relates to the whole creation/evolution issue! 2 Peter 3:3-7 (NIV) states: ‘First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, ‘where is this “coming” he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’ But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and with water. By water also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.’
@@ayetigboo That's a trivial prediction. It's extremely easy to predict that people will make fun of you. Anyone can predict they'll be made fun of eventually, nothing follows from that.
The discussion part of debate is so important, you’re correct. There was a time when I thought debate, say in the style of most of Hitch’s “gloves off” debates from the peak era of the atheist/secularist movement, was very useful/important, but I definitely can’t say that any longer. Such debates can be very entertaining, especially those Hitch debates, but they really and truly are like WWE, with people going in cheering for their own side/wrestler, getting caught up in the spectacle and ultimately not really being challenged or learning anything. For a while I didn’t see any use in formal debate whatsoever, and I still think that probably most big debates out there do little to convince ppl of anything aside from how clever “their team” is. The debate you had with Jordan Peterson is an EXCELLENT example of how I think debate can potentially challenge people, to take them beyond WWE, and make them think about they believe and why they believe it. Keep doing what you do Matt, I love these little debate clips. 🙏🏼✌🏼❤️🏴
Hey Matt, I had a terrible dream the other night that I had to debate you as a Christian apologist (I'm a fervid atheist), and it woke me up, like straight violently sit up woke me up, and I couldn't listen to you for a few days lol, and I typically watch material you're in daily. You helped me with certain critical thinking concepts, and I love the Atheist Exp. bc I grew up Catholic, had all the terrible cliche trauma's associated with that lifestyle, and spent another 20+ years confused and contemplating, and your show talks to people with that type of experience. Thanks again for all you do, we love and appreciate you!
About Meaning of Life When people talk about how religion, or Christianity in particular, give their life meaning or things like that, I find it interesting that my experience is the complete opposite. I probably wouldn't be alive today, if I hadn't become an atheist. That sounds backwards compared to the popular narrative, but it's true. I won't get into details here - mostly because it would be too much writing for a youtube comment that almost nobody will read, and partly because parts of it are too personal to talk about here - but a while back, I thought about suicide every day. I never attempted it, but I had a plan, that I think would have succeeded if I'd gone through with it. (One of the things that kept me from going through with it was that it became a big project, because I wanted the impact of my death to be as small as possible for other people. So step one would have been to quit my job well in advance, so that they'd have plenty of time to find a replacement, and that ideally my wonderful colleagues would never find out what had happened. But I'm getting off topic now.) The thing that's relevant to the topic of meaning is that meaning of life was something I thought about a lot - and prayed about a lot - at the time. What plan could God have for my life, and could I have a purpose in his plan? The lack of response to my intense prayers hurt, and no possible reply to the question of meaning of life was one that I could live up to. So... to make a long story short(ish): When I realised that the god I used to believe in doesn't exist, and that there is no meaning of life, that made wonders for my mental health. I haven't contemplated suicide for almost two years now. Instead of praying desperately to a god that doesn't answer, I can work on changing myself and try to learn to be a better person. And making music, and teach others how to play, is now meaning enough for my life. Others can find theirs, but it is good that there isn't a Meaning with capital m.
"Making music and teaching others how to play is now meaning enough for my life." You, kind sir, have made my day. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Thank you for not killing yourself. Thank you for improving my life with your comment, and with your life. Now I'm off to listen to some music.
Rikard Peterson Yeah, the idea of leaving problems behind for other people can really throw a wrench in suicide plans :p Oh, and my god damn porn collection. What will they think when they find that? Will my mom come to my house to clean it up? Oh, god damn it, my mom! How can I force her to survive me? And she stuck by me all those years despite criticism. I can't give the critics what they want. And then the biding of time... The video games I love and want to keep playing, the science I want to learn, the psychology, the philosophy of ethics, the music I write and haven't published or performed yet and my friends who are really looking forward to that. Oh, fuck, my friends! I want to be with them and share their and my music with them. I really don't want to die yet. I have so much I want to do and learn. Most of all simply loving and be loved in return (Nat King Cole), but I have an adorable cat and if I can just have one more cup of delicious uplifting coffee, that is enough to get me out of bed. Realizing that in the end nothing we do now has meaning messed me up plenty of times. It took me a lot of depressions to figure out how to deal with that, I have bipolar II disorder so I have plenty of those. I think that people underestimate the importance of going through that realization and often react too dismissive to the idea. I understand why different people have different reasons for not wanting to engage in that conversation, but I think it's too important for everyone to dismiss it. Maybe it's a good idea to have school teacher talk about it in class. I'm all for teaching basics in philosophy in grade school. I don't know if it's practical or if it's even a good idea to start that young, but I'd love to explore the idea. I learned that meaning is in the enjoyment and feeling of accomplishment, even in the smaller things, like having done the dishes. If all fails, we still love and are loved in return and on top of that we find meaning in the things we do and love. Hobbies, jobs, sports, music. But we're not born with those. We grow into them, which is one of the main reasons why people are so dismissive when someone says that in the end everything is meaningless. We assume that children can't understand because they haven't developed their personality yet and haven't learned how they want to fill in their lives, but I think that that is the best time to teach them that, because they have empathy and imagination and we can teach them what they will go through and give them tools that help them create meaning a lot faster than our generation ever did. Tell them what to look for; that meaning is in the things they enjoy and taking responsibility. If you don't know that, it's very likely you only see the problem and people telling you that you make meaning for yourself doesn't help at that time because that meaning is meaningless. You have to learn why it has meaning, which is because they are things we want. I think we'd be much better off if those things and critical thinking skills and research skills are discussed before puberty and continued on through the entire school time.
Or people who have never been indoctrinated into a theistic religion. A good part (probably the majority) of the atheist world population is Chinese - and while I don't want to portrait the Chinese as stupid or unreasonable, I think a good number of them may believe all kinds of nonsense (e.g. parts of endangered animals make you more virile). Yes, there is a growing population of informed non-believers but it's not a hard requirement for being atheistic.
Explain Stalin and Mao, killers of countless millions. Atheists are just like anyone else there are good and bad. I know an atheist that is about the most ignorant person you ever met and hateful too. When I ask some why they are atheist the replies are as ignorant as the replies I get from religious people when I ask them.
I honestly, given the choice, would have preferred to not have existed over having had the life that I've had, and the worst thing that could ever happen to me would be to hear my child say that they wished they were never born. My grief at hearing my brother say that was so intense that I developed a murder/suicide plan to save him from existing, and it was only my manic episode kicking in that stopped me from carrying it out, not any sort of rationalization. I can't for the life of me understand why any good god would have chosen to let me live over letting me not exist.
That's because there are no real gods, let alone any "good" gods or bad ones. I would hope that the joy that loving your brother/ child brings you would be enough for you to be happy in life. I'd also hope the same for your brother. Life is too rare and too precious to wish it away, if there is a cure for your suffering.
I am in the same boat. It saddens me that people like us will continue to be created so that others, who enjoy life, can exist. I feel like I am a human sacrifice who is being sacrificed for people who don't care. They are so obsessed with themselves that they don't even acknowledge the price that is being paid for their existence.. the amount of suffering and death that goes into it. Well good luck, at least it will all be over "soon"
wat zup It's possible that you only feel that way because of the pervasive attitudes of the people around you and their culture. If you're in a developing country or america, there seems to be far more value placed on money, than on happiness. You might find that your lust for life reignites itself if you spend time/ live in a different country. Any developed/ western nation except the usa places a far higher value on human health and happiness. maybe give one of them a look.
You mentioned briefly a comment about a soul and there being an afterlife. I don't believe in either of those things, but the thought of vanishing into nothingness terrifies me. It frightens me to such an extent that I'd rather be burning in a hell every single day, knowing that at least I exist. I do not know why this scares me so much but it really does. I'm a highly rational human being and it bugs me knowing this, that I as a rational human being can feel this way. Grrrr.
I can understand where you're coming from, even if I don't agree. However, I do think you'd quickly wish you couldn't experience anything at all if hell is as bad as some say. From my upbringing as a JW, hell is actually what you described - total separation from God & no existence whatsoever.
I'm going to attempt to help you down your path a bit. You'll have work to do afterward. Have you ever had a good night sleep and awoke to realize you didn't have a dream this time? What about the trillions of days and nights you remained unconscious before you were born and then awoke? Why does this nothingness not terrify you? I'm not suggesting it should. What I'm suggesting is there must be a way for you to relate to your death in the same way or similar way to you relate to those other times when you have been unconscious. Lets now look at the time you will be conscious. You have already stated that being conscious is preferable to you even if it means experiencing pain. You also implied you don't like the feeling of being terrified. I propose to you that your feelings are perfectly normal and more importantly they are a result of a perceived fear or threat of this future you envision. You have proposed two scenarios of possible futures. One future in which you burn in hell every single day but are conscious, the second in which you are unconscious. You stated that you don't believe in a soul or an afterlife but you already know what it is like to be unconscious and you are not afraid of going to sleep or of your before-life. Unpacking a bit further, this threat can only directly affect you during a time in which you will be unconscious. Forgive me for stating the obvious. Your fear is of your perception of the future, not the future itself. You know what those two futures would be like. To alleviate the fear you need to change your perception. Developing the skills needed to change a particular perception might come easy or might be very challenging. If you have had this fear for any length of time, it will be a process to be comfortable as you move forward. Google Memory Eraser Techniques. Something that helped me is a technique I like to think of like a Virtual Reality Control Panel. After you read this post, recall the feeling that terrifies you. Describe it in your mind. What properties does it have? Does it feel big, close, looming, is it dark, or colorful? Does it feel like it is a presence that is violating your personal space? Take each of those properties and imagine that you have a knob attached to each one. Write a word by each knob so you can easily identify it. By turning the knobs slowly from max 3/4 scale, imagine the properties changing in real-time toward their opposite or some neutral point. Does the feeling seem less big, not as close, less looming, or less colorful? Does the feeling feel like it is not violating your personal space as much? If you can abstract your feelings to controlling these knobs, you have created a control panel for that feeling. You can tweak those controls and observe the changes. A couple of caveats, the knobs can only be turned a little at a time, can only be turned one way, and as you turn the knobs down you will begin to feel a sense of anticipation of laughter which increases the farther you turn down each knob. As you begin to smile and then to laugh notice the effect on your perception of what was bothering you. Continue this exercise several times a day for a week or more. If you ever find the feeling is worse, take a look at the knobs and make sure they didn't accidentally get reset. If so, slowly turn the knobs back to where you left them and the corresponding properties as where you left them. As you progress you will find the knobs don't get reset as much and the terrifying feeling will give way to increasing laughter. If you feel like ridiculing that feelings go ahead. You will find that feeling becoming hard to remember with clarity and it may fade completely. But even if it doesn't, it isn't something that terrifies you any longer.
Many thanks for the effort you've put into typing this. I really appreciate the advice. I've thought about this, and have been present the argument of dream before. I think I'm fine with letting go when dreaming is because I know that I'll always come back to the waking world. I have 'faith' and to the effect of full knowledge that I will fall asleep, drift off, and wake up safe and sound, just as I have done so since birth. I know this on a conscious and subconscious level. On a side note, I'm a lucid dreamer. I get to experience all 5 senses fully, and at times, depending on how intense the dream is, I am able to inspect closely 'dream matter' , knowing 100% that I'm probing dream matter. It's actually quite an amazing feeling. The best way I can describe this is, it's like being on magic mushrooms. But in reverse. On mushrooms, you feel like you're dreaming, but you know you're awake. When Lucid dreaming, you know you;re asleep, but it feel like you;re awake. Again, I've thought about this many times regarding the dissolving of 'self' into nothingness. I've spoken to so many people about this. And it still freaks me out whenever I ponder this subject. But please understand, I don't dwell on this every day. It's only if it pops into my head randomly or in conversation. I hear of the arguments about (like Matt mentioned) you didn't know about existence billions of years before you were born, etc, but obviously, that wouldn't really matter, because you just did not exist. But after acquiring all those years of experience, of mental development, and ideas etc, now that you know all that....you will literally just disappear, and so will all your ideas and memories. It's scary. I know it's a bit puerile to think this way but, hey, we all have our little weird quirks and flawed thinking here and there. And just like some people will fear a mouse, and I'll be thinking, what's the big deal, well, others will read this and think, well I don't get it. But that's ok.
Domzdream Simply put, you will not know or be aware of your nonexistence when the lights go out for the last time. No worries. Will happen to all of us.
I get fear of dying. Or even FOMO. Nonexistence though? I've been nonexistent for about 13.7 (I think) billion years now and I'm no worse for wear. I'll worry about that when I get there.
One of the more interesting misconceptions about atheism that I've been exposed to was the idea that atheists "hate god". My wife went to a nondenominational church and I would go with her to support her because she loved to sing in the choir. We were fairly close with the pastor and his wife, went to dinners and whatnot. They would praise me about how good I am with children (I'm a father, not a weirdo btw) and I've taken a family living out of a motel to dinner. They thought I was this example of christianity or something. One day in conversation the pastor's wife said "what are those people that hate God called? Atheist right?" It tripped me out and I later heard it again at that church. When they heard I was an atheist it blew their minds because how can someone as nice (or whatever) as me, could be an atheist.
Human the finite -Atheists hate God. -Atheists don’t believe in God because they love to sin. Those are some of the stupidest misconceptions I can think of. Usually only con artists like Ray Comfort or Kirk Cameron or very ignorant Christians say stupid stuff like this.
What I'd like for religious people to understand: 1. burden of proof 2. the difference between evidence and a claim 3. independent verification 4. falsifiability 5. god of the gaps; Science converges, religion diverges. 6. The value of saying, "I don't know." when you don't know. What I'd like for religious people to do: 1. To be able to see when logic is faulty. 2. For them to read something in their holy book and to stop and really think about it. 3. For them to stop and really think about their excuses and rationalizations. 4. Take an introductory class in statistics. What do religious people want Atheists to do?
Are you going to be making a video on veganism soon? You mentioned something about that. I recommend having a discussion with Ask Yourself; he is very solid on logic and ethical consistency. I definitely don't recommend attempting to think on your feet for that, however. Cheers!
He probably won't. Matt generally tries to avoid the subject. When he had a direct discussion with Vegan Gains (a UA-camr), he essentially made a special pleading fallacy to justify his stance then attempted to muddle the conversation by quibbling and equivocation. Honestly, it was a low point for Matt and he probably doesn't even realize it. Btw I'm not vegan, vegetarian, or w/e; just listen to it for yourself. ua-cam.com/video/dkSgMNTsMws/v-deo.html
@@monsterram6617 I heard it when it happened; I follow Richard (VG). I said that he should have a discussion with Ask Yourself, who is also a UA-camr, and close friend of VG's, because, while sound on moral philosophy concerning veganism, Richard has strength more in the nutritional data and arguments for veganism. Issac (Ask Yourself), however, is a bit more concise with the moral philosophy. Ask Yourself has a few videos breaking down Matt's fallacious arguments on the topic (and other flaws/dismissiveness), and his discussion with VG. The most recent of these videos breaks down what Matt said on Talk Heathen in January, and it is on that show where Matt said he would probably be releasing a video touching on veganism. Just checking up on that. Here are the links to Issac's videos: ua-cam.com/video/SeKJhaktGG4/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/ghQCeb0Evvo/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/WBCHGpP32vo/v-deo.html
I don't buy into the idea that an afterlife is a bonus. I hate the idea of their being a choice of eternal suffering or eternal life. I know i would want to die after the first year in my eternal life. There should be a choice for not existing after death even for believers as well as for non believers because not one person ever chose to be born. The God seems immoral for giving a person the choices of eternal life or eternal suffering. I know I'm not alone in this thought as I've seen hundreds of comments question this idea of an eternal afterlife being a bonus. Anything eternal sounds like a nightmare.
Well, the idea of infinity is really hard to imagine. I actually do this little exercise for whomever asks me about infinity. I start off with demonstrating how long a year takes. Then 5 years. Then 10 years. I keep increasing the number, and all the accomplishments within that bracket of years. Then you simply put - imagine a billion X a trillion X a trillion years.... You've barely even started the hairline of infinity. Watch peoples' head explode. I think you really have to place a perspective of points for people to understand fully what eternity means. Otherwise, it's just a word that forms an idea. So for a finite sin (which is not believing in this god who by the way created this torture chamber of fire...), you get eternity in fire. That's crazy. And what's crazier is how christians will proclaim absolute love and adulation to this monstrous god. It amazes me every single time. And lastly, when I hear this new (supposedly) brilliant mind - Jordan Peterson speak about christianity and how awesome it is....it again amazes me how a guy like that can hold such an obviously stupid position on christianty. I can within minutes find almost every religion that influenced christianiy, where it came from, which year more or less, all that. It's all there on the internet, and yet he hasn't really questioned any of that. Or the moral ethics which I've just mentioned. I'm not even all that smart, and eve I can understand the basics of logical thinking, or recognition of what is moral versus what is immoral. I just don't get it.
The problem of evil/gratoutous suffering is an emotional appeal, apologists can successfully to reason it away intellectually, but many in the audience still feel the emotion, if you empathetically highlight how the apologist has to switch off his humanity, and you appeal to the audience's humanity it can be effective. (Just an idea, Not that I would presume to give you advice:) )
I shouldn't like to speak for Matt, but I rather think he's above using "trickery" to win points. As he's said many a time before, the arguments themselves stand or fall on their own merit, regardless of who is making them. And so I suspect that he'd be more inclined to provide a well-reasoned, rational argument above emotional appeals.
Are emotional tactics really "trickery"? I understand you would prefer to use intellectual agreements, but the bottom line is we are not robots, we are social animals and emotion is a large part of our behavioral regulation. Religion depends on emotional attachment as an anchor. You can present as much intellectual argument as you which but the if the audience doesn't experience cognitive dissonance in the emotional anchor at some point in their journey, everything else remains just words, cold, detached and quickly suppressed . Well worth watching - ua-cam.com/video/1SJ6AV31MxA/v-deo.html
I think my answer to the first two questions is the same: "We're all different"; Just like there are dozens different flavors of Christian, there are lots of different kinds of Atheists. If you boil down Christianity to the largest common denominator is "Jesus is pretty cool". You can't assume anything more than that until you talk to the individual Christian. Likewise, the only thing you can assume about an avowed Atheist is "doesn't buy into this 'God' stuff."
Actually, it's not "Jesus is pretty cool", It's "Jesus was God". That's the minimum required attribute to actually be called a "Christian". Even then, there are people who don't believe Jesus was real or a god and still call themselves "Christians" which makes the label meaningless. Be careful of equivocating. Most equivocations aren't justified if you really stop to consider the two elements being equivocated.
If your argument is "Christians believe that Jesus is God except for those that don't" then you are agreeing with me. I don't know why you're phrasing it like a counterpoint, but thanks for providing an example for my argument. Cheers, mate.
Were you pointing out that you must believe that Jesus is God to be a true -Scotsman- Christian, and to say otherwise is an equivocation? That didn't go over my head, it was just too silly to take seriously. No bother, and you're welcome.
Hopefully Matt can make a video (unless he's already made one so forgive me if he's done it) ...about how an intelligent man such a J Peterson can adhere to (obviously) silly religions, namely christianty, which he follows, and get away with it. He (Jordan) completely glosses over all the nasty stuff like slavery, 7 headed dragons OR even weirder writings in the bible, and just blindly keep believing in this hogwash. How can a guy so highly respected, can get away with so much nonsense. Is it because of his credentials? which lead to automatic credibility of his propositions? I mean, his ideas are no different than I've heard from both intellectuals and basic Laymen christians. Maybe it's the way he packages his arguments. All his arguments can actually easily be refuted, so why the heck is he so damn popular?
I think the biggest misconception is that atheists lack something, be it moral values, a purpose in life, etc. or that we live in constant fear of death. Also it appears to me that it depends a lot on culture and the perceived societal status, for example, a Chinese atheist is someone just different, but to a christian caucasians are evaluated differently, and think that being an atheist somehow isn't good for you and needs to be fixed, even people who appeared to be quite vocal about their beliefs don't care that much about the visiting foreigner as they do with the person who should or appear to belong to their same group, which to me suggests strongly that religion is still mostly a social construct and the search for the truth is not, even when they talk and sound convinced about it, the real purpose. Of course christians could say that is a misconception about them, that they do care more about having a common grounds for moral and societal values when they believe they're searching for the true purpose of the universe.
11:05 "God gave us over to reprobate minds" So where is our culpability in all this? I know this isn't Matt's belief, but if christians really think that THIS is true, then how exactly are we sinful, if it's god's fuck-up that left us where we are?
Matt I've been following for about two years I'm so happy that I've found the atheist experience I'm now in atheist for over two years god is bullshit he doesn't love us it's all made up I was a christian once it's a full of crap I hope I can meet u someday Matt dillahunty
Love you Matt, 3 years ago I've watched every atheist experience all the way back to your first debut. Watched everything youtube had to offer every single compilation and since that beginning 3 years ago searched your name with the "upload date" filter once a week. So every sitdown, speech, podcast, debate, every every everything I'd come meet you but what the hell would we talk about? XD Honestly you are my hero....except all that sjw identity politics trash. I just hope you don't have white guilt Like Seth ...that would be crushing xD much like his crushed channel INSTANTLY when he accepted white guilt. Much like the silence when nobody cheered for him when you set him up on stage lol. I'm an atheist on the verge of becoming a theist, I'll be calling in next time you will be on.
I'm interested to know how someone who's a hardcore fan of Dillahunty is on the verge of becoming a theist. Also, what do you mean by "white guilt"? When did Seth talk about that? His channel seems very much alive, so I don't know what you're talking about.
"except all that sjw identity politics trash" Dillahunty has stated his specific stance on this topic in several videos. Do you disagree with one of his specific beliefs or just with the association? What do exactly mean by "sjw identity politics trash" exactly? Is it primarily the ""white guilt", and if so what do you think is so wrong about it?
Logic Monkey So which tribal god do you find compelling and why? All gods ever invented have all come from various tribes of human beings who have invented their gods and each of those gods strictly reflect the culture of those tribes that invented them. They are all local and strictly concerned with tribal matters on this one planet. Planet Earth is but a teensy bit of cosmic dust in our own solar system not to mention our galaxy. Our galaxy is only one of trillions of galaxies. I don't get your perspective of how an invisible god could possible exist much less be concerned about a teensy speck of cosmic dust and one species on it. Nevermind that there is absolutely no evidence of any sort of god existing except in the imagination of incredulous and ignorant people.
@Rhonda I read about half of that before I realized You are a youtube warrior "debater" lol. I don't debate people I don't know or care about. Its a waste of my time because my time is important.
A celebration of spoken language and alliteration? Perhaps more of a scoffing at or exhaustion from too much talk. The phrasing and voice of the narrator suggests exasperation. Each verse progresses through the english alphabet: A, B, C, D, and ending with E for elephant, the only word not directly related to speech. Why elephant? Because that sound elephants make is what all speech must sound like to this broken man, desperately seeking refuge from the cacophony. Brouhaha
Matt you are my hero. I have been listening to you for about 5 years now. Thanks to you, i am no longer a Christian.
Originally published in Creation 8, no 2 (March 1986): 17-20.
There is an interesting prophecy in 2 Peter 3 concerning the last days of this earth’s history, and it very much relates to the whole creation/evolution issue!
2 Peter 3:3-7 (NIV) states: ‘First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, ‘where is this “coming” he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’ But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and with water. By water also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.’
@@ayetigboo it was smart of the authors of christianity to include a stipulation that kinda frees them up if none of their claims came true.
+This Is Not My Name
Congratulations, welcome to reality. I hope you will appreciate the freedom of the mind.
He taught me a lot on skepticism and debating. Love it.
@@ayetigboo That's a trivial prediction. It's extremely easy to predict that people will make fun of you. Anyone can predict they'll be made fun of eventually, nothing follows from that.
I love listening to you think out loud. Your clear thinking helps me frame my thoughts better.
The discussion part of debate is so important, you’re correct. There was a time when I thought debate, say in the style of most of Hitch’s “gloves off” debates from the peak era of the atheist/secularist movement, was very useful/important, but I definitely can’t say that any longer. Such debates can be very entertaining, especially those Hitch debates, but they really and truly are like WWE, with people going in cheering for their own side/wrestler, getting caught up in the spectacle and ultimately not really being challenged or learning anything. For a while I didn’t see any use in formal debate whatsoever, and I still think that probably most big debates out there do little to convince ppl of anything aside from how clever “their team” is. The debate you had with Jordan Peterson is an EXCELLENT example of how I think debate can potentially challenge people, to take them beyond WWE, and make them think about they believe and why they believe it. Keep doing what you do Matt, I love these little debate clips. 🙏🏼✌🏼❤️🏴
Great Strategy Matt! Good luck!
Hey Matt, I had a terrible dream the other night that I had to debate you as a Christian apologist (I'm a fervid atheist), and it woke me up, like straight violently sit up woke me up, and I couldn't listen to you for a few days lol, and I typically watch material you're in daily. You helped me with certain critical thinking concepts, and I love the Atheist Exp. bc I grew up Catholic, had all the terrible cliche trauma's associated with that lifestyle, and spent another 20+ years confused and contemplating, and your show talks to people with that type of experience. Thanks again for all you do, we love and appreciate you!
About Meaning of Life
When people talk about how religion, or Christianity in particular, give their life meaning or things like that, I find it interesting that my experience is the complete opposite. I probably wouldn't be alive today, if I hadn't become an atheist. That sounds backwards compared to the popular narrative, but it's true.
I won't get into details here - mostly because it would be too much writing for a youtube comment that almost nobody will read, and partly because parts of it are too personal to talk about here - but a while back, I thought about suicide every day. I never attempted it, but I had a plan, that I think would have succeeded if I'd gone through with it. (One of the things that kept me from going through with it was that it became a big project, because I wanted the impact of my death to be as small as possible for other people. So step one would have been to quit my job well in advance, so that they'd have plenty of time to find a replacement, and that ideally my wonderful colleagues would never find out what had happened. But I'm getting off topic now.)
The thing that's relevant to the topic of meaning is that meaning of life was something I thought about a lot - and prayed about a lot - at the time. What plan could God have for my life, and could I have a purpose in his plan? The lack of response to my intense prayers hurt, and no possible reply to the question of meaning of life was one that I could live up to.
So... to make a long story short(ish): When I realised that the god I used to believe in doesn't exist, and that there is no meaning of life, that made wonders for my mental health. I haven't contemplated suicide for almost two years now. Instead of praying desperately to a god that doesn't answer, I can work on changing myself and try to learn to be a better person. And making music, and teach others how to play, is now meaning enough for my life. Others can find theirs, but it is good that there isn't a Meaning with capital m.
"Making music and teaching others how to play is now meaning enough for my life."
You, kind sir, have made my day. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Thank you for not killing yourself.
Thank you for improving my life with your comment, and with your life.
Now I'm off to listen to some music.
Rikard Peterson Yeah, the idea of leaving problems behind for other people can really throw a wrench in suicide plans :p Oh, and my god damn porn collection. What will they think when they find that? Will my mom come to my house to clean it up? Oh, god damn it, my mom! How can I force her to survive me? And she stuck by me all those years despite criticism. I can't give the critics what they want.
And then the biding of time... The video games I love and want to keep playing, the science I want to learn, the psychology, the philosophy of ethics, the music I write and haven't published or performed yet and my friends who are really looking forward to that. Oh, fuck, my friends! I want to be with them and share their and my music with them. I really don't want to die yet. I have so much I want to do and learn. Most of all simply loving and be loved in return (Nat King Cole), but I have an adorable cat and if I can just have one more cup of delicious uplifting coffee, that is enough to get me out of bed.
Realizing that in the end nothing we do now has meaning messed me up plenty of times. It took me a lot of depressions to figure out how to deal with that, I have bipolar II disorder so I have plenty of those. I think that people underestimate the importance of going through that realization and often react too dismissive to the idea. I understand why different people have different reasons for not wanting to engage in that conversation, but I think it's too important for everyone to dismiss it. Maybe it's a good idea to have school teacher talk about it in class. I'm all for teaching basics in philosophy in grade school. I don't know if it's practical or if it's even a good idea to start that young, but I'd love to explore the idea.
I learned that meaning is in the enjoyment and feeling of accomplishment, even in the smaller things, like having done the dishes. If all fails, we still love and are loved in return and on top of that we find meaning in the things we do and love. Hobbies, jobs, sports, music. But we're not born with those. We grow into them, which is one of the main reasons why people are so dismissive when someone says that in the end everything is meaningless.
We assume that children can't understand because they haven't developed their personality yet and haven't learned how they want to fill in their lives, but I think that that is the best time to teach them that, because they have empathy and imagination and we can teach them what they will go through and give them tools that help them create meaning a lot faster than our generation ever did. Tell them what to look for; that meaning is in the things they enjoy and taking responsibility. If you don't know that, it's very likely you only see the problem and people telling you that you make meaning for yourself doesn't help at that time because that meaning is meaningless. You have to learn why it has meaning, which is because they are things we want. I think we'd be much better off if those things and critical thinking skills and research skills are discussed before puberty and continued on through the entire school time.
Matt is a master debater.
Matt, as a Christian i enjoy these calm videos of yours much more than the atheist experience bits. Thanks for this.
Nice thoughts, thanks for sharing.
Thanks for "words with a D", Matt! Nice to find other Crimnerds out in the wild.
Love the new set up
Matt Dillahunty, when is your book coming out? Thanks for all you do, I've been following you for a long time, I'm a big fan. Keep up the good work.
Points to the crowd... “spot the atheist”. Atheists are people that value reason and humanity over faith.
Or people who have never been indoctrinated into a theistic religion. A good part (probably the majority) of the atheist world population is Chinese - and while I don't want to portrait the Chinese as stupid or unreasonable, I think a good number of them may believe all kinds of nonsense (e.g. parts of endangered animals make you more virile). Yes, there is a growing population of informed non-believers but it's not a hard requirement for being atheistic.
An atheist is merely someone who rejects the assertion that a god or gods exist. That is all.
Explain Stalin and Mao, killers of countless millions.
Atheists are just like anyone else there are good and bad.
I know an atheist that is about the most ignorant person you ever met and hateful too.
When I ask some why they are atheist the replies are as ignorant as the replies I get from religious people when I ask them.
Love the new camera
I loved the King Crimson reference!
I honestly, given the choice, would have preferred to not have existed over having had the life that I've had, and the worst thing that could ever happen to me would be to hear my child say that they wished they were never born. My grief at hearing my brother say that was so intense that I developed a murder/suicide plan to save him from existing, and it was only my manic episode kicking in that stopped me from carrying it out, not any sort of rationalization. I can't for the life of me understand why any good god would have chosen to let me live over letting me not exist.
That's because there are no real gods, let alone any "good" gods or bad ones.
I would hope that the joy that loving your brother/ child brings you would be enough for you to be happy in life. I'd also hope the same for your brother. Life is too rare and too precious to wish it away, if there is a cure for your suffering.
I am in the same boat. It saddens me that people like us will continue to be created so that others, who enjoy life, can exist. I feel like I am a human sacrifice who is being sacrificed for people who don't care. They are so obsessed with themselves that they don't even acknowledge the price that is being paid for their existence.. the amount of suffering and death that goes into it. Well good luck, at least it will all be over "soon"
Please don't hurt yourself or anyone else. You are loved. Not by a god that doesn't exist, but by humanity that has compassion.
wat zup
It's possible that you only feel that way because of the pervasive attitudes of the people around you and their culture. If you're in a developing country or america, there seems to be far more value placed on money, than on happiness. You might find that your lust for life reignites itself if you spend time/ live in a different country. Any developed/ western nation except the usa places a far higher value on human health and happiness. maybe give one of them a look.
You mentioned briefly a comment about a soul and there being an afterlife. I don't believe in either of those things, but the thought of vanishing into nothingness terrifies me. It frightens me to such an extent that I'd rather be burning in a hell every single day, knowing that at least I exist. I do not know why this scares me so much but it really does. I'm a highly rational human being and it bugs me knowing this, that I as a rational human being can feel this way.
Grrrr.
I can understand where you're coming from, even if I don't agree. However, I do think you'd quickly wish you couldn't experience anything at all if hell is as bad as some say. From my upbringing as a JW, hell is actually what you described - total separation from God & no existence whatsoever.
I'm going to attempt to help you down your path a bit. You'll have work to do afterward.
Have you ever had a good night sleep and awoke to realize you didn't have a dream this time? What about the trillions of days and nights you remained unconscious before you were born and then awoke? Why does this nothingness not terrify you? I'm not suggesting it should. What I'm suggesting is there must be a way for you to relate to your death in the same way or similar way to you relate to those other times when you have been unconscious.
Lets now look at the time you will be conscious. You have already stated that being conscious is preferable to you even if it means experiencing pain. You also implied you don't like the feeling of being terrified. I propose to you that your feelings are perfectly normal and more importantly they are a result of a perceived fear or threat of this future you envision. You have proposed two scenarios of possible futures. One future in which you burn in hell every single day but are conscious, the second in which you are unconscious.
You stated that you don't believe in a soul or an afterlife but you already know what it is like to be unconscious and you are not afraid of going to sleep or of your before-life. Unpacking a bit further, this threat can only directly affect you during a time in which you will be unconscious. Forgive me for stating the obvious. Your fear is of your perception of the future, not the future itself. You know what those two futures would be like. To alleviate the fear you need to change your perception. Developing the skills needed to change a particular perception might come easy or might be very challenging. If you have had this fear for any length of time, it will be a process to be comfortable as you move forward.
Google Memory Eraser Techniques.
Something that helped me is a technique I like to think of like a Virtual Reality Control Panel. After you read this post, recall the feeling that terrifies you. Describe it in your mind. What properties does it have? Does it feel big, close, looming, is it dark, or colorful? Does it feel like it is a presence that is violating your personal space? Take each of those properties and imagine that you have a knob attached to each one. Write a word by each knob so you can easily identify it. By turning the knobs slowly from max 3/4 scale, imagine the properties changing in real-time toward their opposite or some neutral point. Does the feeling seem less big, not as close, less looming, or less colorful? Does the feeling feel like it is not violating your personal space as much? If you can abstract your feelings to controlling these knobs, you have created a control panel for that feeling. You can tweak those controls and observe the changes. A couple of caveats, the knobs can only be turned a little at a time, can only be turned one way, and as you turn the knobs down you will begin to feel a sense of anticipation of laughter which increases the farther you turn down each knob. As you begin to smile and then to laugh notice the effect on your perception of what was bothering you. Continue this exercise several times a day for a week or more. If you ever find the feeling is worse, take a look at the knobs and make sure they didn't accidentally get reset. If so, slowly turn the knobs back to where you left them and the corresponding properties as where you left them. As you progress you will find the knobs don't get reset as much and the terrifying feeling will give way to increasing laughter. If you feel like ridiculing that feelings go ahead.
You will find that feeling becoming hard to remember with clarity and it may fade completely. But even if it doesn't, it isn't something that terrifies you any longer.
Many thanks for the effort you've put into typing this. I really appreciate the advice.
I've thought about this, and have been present the argument of dream before. I think I'm fine with letting go when dreaming is because I know that I'll always come back to the waking world. I have 'faith' and to the effect of full knowledge that I will fall asleep, drift off, and wake up safe and sound, just as I have done so since birth. I know this on a conscious and subconscious level.
On a side note, I'm a lucid dreamer. I get to experience all 5 senses fully, and at times, depending on how intense the dream is, I am able to inspect closely 'dream matter' , knowing 100% that I'm probing dream matter. It's actually quite an amazing feeling. The best way I can describe this is, it's like being on magic mushrooms. But in reverse.
On mushrooms, you feel like you're dreaming, but you know you're awake. When Lucid dreaming, you know you;re asleep, but it feel like you;re awake.
Again, I've thought about this many times regarding the dissolving of 'self' into nothingness. I've spoken to so many people about this. And it still freaks me out whenever I ponder this subject. But please understand, I don't dwell on this every day. It's only if it pops into my head randomly or in conversation.
I hear of the arguments about (like Matt mentioned) you didn't know about existence billions of years before you were born, etc, but obviously, that wouldn't really matter, because you just did not exist. But after acquiring all those years of experience, of mental development, and ideas etc, now that you know all that....you will literally just disappear, and so will all your ideas and memories. It's scary. I know it's a bit puerile to think this way but, hey, we all have our little weird quirks and flawed thinking here and there.
And just like some people will fear a mouse, and I'll be thinking, what's the big deal, well, others will read this and think, well I don't get it.
But that's ok.
Domzdream Simply put, you will not know or be aware of your nonexistence when the lights go out for the last time. No worries. Will happen to all of us.
I get fear of dying. Or even FOMO. Nonexistence though? I've been nonexistent for about 13.7 (I think) billion years now and I'm no worse for wear. I'll worry about that when I get there.
One of the more interesting misconceptions about atheism that I've been exposed to was the idea that atheists "hate god". My wife went to a nondenominational church and I would go with her to support her because she loved to sing in the choir. We were fairly close with the pastor and his wife, went to dinners and whatnot. They would praise me about how good I am with children (I'm a father, not a weirdo btw) and I've taken a family living out of a motel to dinner. They thought I was this example of christianity or something. One day in conversation the pastor's wife said "what are those people that hate God called? Atheist right?" It tripped me out and I later heard it again at that church. When they heard I was an atheist it blew their minds because how can someone as nice (or whatever) as me, could be an atheist.
Human the finite
-Atheists hate God.
-Atheists don’t believe in God because they love to sin.
Those are some of the stupidest misconceptions I can think of.
Usually only con artists like Ray Comfort or Kirk Cameron or very ignorant Christians say stupid stuff like this.
What I'd like for religious people to understand:
1. burden of proof
2. the difference between evidence and a claim
3. independent verification
4. falsifiability
5. god of the gaps; Science converges, religion diverges.
6. The value of saying, "I don't know." when you don't know.
What I'd like for religious people to do:
1. To be able to see when logic is faulty.
2. For them to read something in their holy book and to stop and really think about it.
3. For them to stop and really think about their excuses and rationalizations.
4. Take an introductory class in statistics.
What do religious people want Atheists to do?
Are you going to be making a video on veganism soon? You mentioned something about that. I recommend having a discussion with Ask Yourself; he is very solid on logic and ethical consistency. I definitely don't recommend attempting to think on your feet for that, however. Cheers!
He probably won't. Matt generally tries to avoid the subject. When he had a direct discussion with Vegan Gains (a UA-camr), he essentially made a special pleading fallacy to justify his stance then attempted to muddle the conversation by quibbling and equivocation. Honestly, it was a low point for Matt and he probably doesn't even realize it. Btw I'm not vegan, vegetarian, or w/e; just listen to it for yourself.
ua-cam.com/video/dkSgMNTsMws/v-deo.html
@@monsterram6617 I heard it when it happened; I follow Richard (VG). I said that he should have a discussion with Ask Yourself, who is also a UA-camr, and close friend of VG's, because, while sound on moral philosophy concerning veganism, Richard has strength more in the nutritional data and arguments for veganism. Issac (Ask Yourself), however, is a bit more concise with the moral philosophy. Ask Yourself has a few videos breaking down Matt's fallacious arguments on the topic (and other flaws/dismissiveness), and his discussion with VG. The most recent of these videos breaks down what Matt said on Talk Heathen in January, and it is on that show where Matt said he would probably be releasing a video touching on veganism. Just checking up on that.
Here are the links to Issac's videos:
ua-cam.com/video/SeKJhaktGG4/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/ghQCeb0Evvo/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/WBCHGpP32vo/v-deo.html
I don't buy into the idea that an afterlife is a bonus. I hate the idea of their being a choice of eternal suffering or eternal life. I know i would want to die after the first year in my eternal life.
There should be a choice for not existing after death even for believers as well as for non believers because not one person ever chose to be born. The God seems immoral for giving a person the choices of eternal life or eternal suffering. I know I'm not alone in this thought as I've seen hundreds of comments question this idea of an eternal afterlife being a bonus.
Anything eternal sounds like a nightmare.
Well, the idea of infinity is really hard to imagine. I actually do this little exercise for whomever asks me about infinity. I start off with demonstrating how long a year takes. Then 5 years. Then 10 years. I keep increasing the number, and all the accomplishments within that bracket of years. Then you simply put - imagine a billion X a trillion X a trillion years....
You've barely even started the hairline of infinity. Watch peoples' head explode. I think you really have to place a perspective of points for people to understand fully what eternity means. Otherwise, it's just a word that forms an idea.
So for a finite sin (which is not believing in this god who by the way created this torture chamber of fire...), you get eternity in fire. That's crazy. And what's crazier is how christians will proclaim absolute love and adulation to this monstrous god. It amazes me every single time.
And lastly, when I hear this new (supposedly) brilliant mind - Jordan Peterson speak about christianity and how awesome it is....it again amazes me how a guy like that can hold such an obviously stupid position on christianty. I can within minutes find almost every religion that influenced christianiy, where it came from, which year more or less, all that. It's all there on the internet, and yet he hasn't really questioned any of that. Or the moral ethics which I've just mentioned. I'm not even all that smart, and eve I can understand the basics of logical thinking, or recognition of what is moral versus what is immoral.
I just don't get it.
In Christianity I am guilty of sin thousands of years before I am even born. How exactly is that my fault? Christianity is immoral at its heart!
oh absolutely! You're born in sin! Where's the fairness in that?! Imagine being born with a 100k bill, and having to now pay for this all your life.
haha, no thanks. Blow jobs are amazing but....for an hour at best. That would be pure hell!
Dom
I dunno, I think (assuming you didn't need to pee or poop) I might entertain one for ~a year.
The problem of evil/gratoutous suffering is an emotional appeal, apologists can successfully to reason it away intellectually, but many in the audience still feel the emotion, if you empathetically highlight how the apologist has to switch off his humanity, and you appeal to the audience's humanity it can be effective. (Just an idea, Not that I would presume to give you advice:) )
I shouldn't like to speak for Matt, but I rather think he's above using "trickery" to win points. As he's said many a time before, the arguments themselves stand or fall on their own merit, regardless of who is making them. And so I suspect that he'd be more inclined to provide a well-reasoned, rational argument above emotional appeals.
Are emotional tactics really "trickery"? I understand you would prefer to use intellectual agreements, but the bottom line is we are not robots, we are social animals and emotion is a large part of our behavioral regulation. Religion depends on emotional attachment as an anchor. You can present as much intellectual argument as you which but the if the audience doesn't experience cognitive dissonance in the emotional anchor at some point in their journey, everything else remains just words, cold, detached and quickly suppressed .
Well worth watching - ua-cam.com/video/1SJ6AV31MxA/v-deo.html
More of a Magma fan myself.
This existence is mostly misery...
I think my answer to the first two questions is the same: "We're all different"; Just like there are dozens different flavors of Christian, there are lots of different kinds of Atheists.
If you boil down Christianity to the largest common denominator is "Jesus is pretty cool". You can't assume anything more than that until you talk to the individual Christian.
Likewise, the only thing you can assume about an avowed Atheist is "doesn't buy into this 'God' stuff."
Actually, it's not "Jesus is pretty cool", It's "Jesus was God". That's the minimum required attribute to actually be called a "Christian". Even then, there are people who don't believe Jesus was real or a god and still call themselves "Christians" which makes the label meaningless.
Be careful of equivocating. Most equivocations aren't justified if you really stop to consider the two elements being equivocated.
If your argument is "Christians believe that Jesus is God except for those that don't" then you are agreeing with me. I don't know why you're phrasing it like a counterpoint, but thanks for providing an example for my argument. Cheers, mate.
What I was pointing out seems to have gone right over your head but it's not really important. Sorry to have bothered you. Thanks.
Were you pointing out that you must believe that Jesus is God to be a true -Scotsman- Christian, and to say otherwise is an equivocation? That didn't go over my head, it was just too silly to take seriously. No bother, and you're welcome.
Yeah, no, that's not the point I was trying to make. Like I said, not important enough to write novels about.
Hopefully Matt can make a video (unless he's already made one so forgive me if he's done it) ...about how an intelligent man such a J Peterson can adhere to (obviously) silly religions, namely christianty, which he follows, and get away with it. He (Jordan) completely glosses over all the nasty stuff like slavery, 7 headed dragons OR even weirder writings in the bible, and just blindly keep believing in this hogwash. How can a guy so highly respected, can get away with so much nonsense. Is it because of his credentials? which lead to automatic credibility of his propositions?
I mean, his ideas are no different than I've heard from both intellectuals and basic Laymen christians. Maybe it's the way he packages his arguments. All his arguments can actually easily be refuted, so why the heck is he so damn popular?
Domzdream Matt has a vid called “thoughts on my conversation with Jordan Peterson” that addresses a lot of what you’re asking about.
It's not just Peterson's religious beliefs that are silly. But yes, I don't understand why he's popular, either.
I think the biggest misconception is that atheists lack something, be it moral values, a purpose in life, etc. or that we live in constant fear of death. Also it appears to me that it depends a lot on culture and the perceived societal status, for example, a Chinese atheist is someone just different, but to a christian caucasians are evaluated differently, and think that being an atheist somehow isn't good for you and needs to be fixed, even people who appeared to be quite vocal about their beliefs don't care that much about the visiting foreigner as they do with the person who should or appear to belong to their same group, which to me suggests strongly that religion is still mostly a social construct and the search for the truth is not, even when they talk and sound convinced about it, the real purpose. Of course christians could say that is a misconception about them, that they do care more about having a common grounds for moral and societal values when they believe they're searching for the true purpose of the universe.
11:05
"God gave us over to reprobate minds"
So where is our culpability in all this? I know this isn't Matt's belief, but if christians really think that THIS is true, then how exactly are we sinful, if it's god's fuck-up that left us where we are?
Matt I've been following for about two years I'm so happy that I've found the atheist experience I'm now in atheist for over two years god is bullshit he doesn't love us it's all made up I was a christian once it's a full of crap I hope I can meet u someday Matt dillahunty
Because they keep using same arguments over and over
Love you Matt, 3 years ago I've watched every atheist experience all the way back to your first debut. Watched everything youtube had to offer every single compilation and since that beginning 3 years ago searched your name with the "upload date" filter once a week. So every sitdown, speech, podcast, debate, every every everything
I'd come meet you but what the hell would we talk about? XD Honestly you are my hero....except all that sjw identity politics trash. I just hope you don't have white guilt Like Seth ...that would be crushing xD much like his crushed channel INSTANTLY when he accepted white guilt. Much like the silence when nobody cheered for him when you set him up on stage lol.
I'm an atheist on the verge of becoming a theist, I'll be calling in next time you will be on.
"I'm an atheist on the verge of becoming a theist".... .... what?
I'm interested to know how someone who's a hardcore fan of Dillahunty is on the verge of becoming a theist.
Also, what do you mean by "white guilt"? When did Seth talk about that? His channel seems very much alive, so I don't know what you're talking about.
"except all that sjw identity politics trash"
Dillahunty has stated his specific stance on this topic in several videos. Do you disagree with one of his specific beliefs or just with the association? What do exactly mean by "sjw identity politics trash" exactly? Is it primarily the ""white guilt", and if so what do you think is so wrong about it?
Logic Monkey So which tribal god do you find compelling and why? All gods ever invented have all come from various tribes of human beings who have invented their gods and each of those gods strictly reflect the culture of those tribes that invented them. They are all local and strictly concerned with tribal matters on this one planet. Planet Earth is but a teensy bit of cosmic dust in our own solar system not to mention our galaxy. Our galaxy is only one of trillions of galaxies. I don't get your perspective of how an invisible god could possible exist much less be concerned about a teensy speck of cosmic dust and one species on it. Nevermind that there is absolutely no evidence of any sort of god existing except in the imagination of incredulous and ignorant people.
@Rhonda I read about half of that before I realized You are a youtube warrior "debater" lol. I don't debate people I don't know or care about. Its a waste of my time because my time is important.
Matt looks like he lost some weight.
It's only talk!! Adrian Belew with the Talking Heads in Rome keeps calling me back.
When are you going to talk about Secular Humanism and make your living off of what you do believe and support?
Wouldn't that be "only talk"? I mean, it's all "just talk", isn't it?
A celebration of spoken language and alliteration?
Perhaps more of a scoffing at or exhaustion from too much talk. The phrasing and voice of the narrator suggests exasperation. Each verse progresses through the english alphabet: A, B, C, D, and ending with E for elephant, the only word not directly related to speech. Why elephant? Because that sound elephants make is what all speech must sound like to this broken man, desperately seeking refuge from the cacophony.
Brouhaha