Which Is Better For Solar? Ground or Roof Mount? FarmCraft101 Solar
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- Опубліковано 21 бер 2019
- There are lots of factors to consider in the choice between a ground mount and a roof mount. Here I go through the pros and cons. I also touch on the utility of solar optimizers with an unshaded array.
Pros of ground mount: More efficient. Easier to work on. Easier to clean off.
Cons of a ground mount: More expensive up front. Takes up real estate. Different look.
Pros of a roof mount: Cheaper. Quick installation.
Cons of a roof mount: Less efficient. Lots of additional cost when roof needs replacing. Harder to work on, especially on steep roofs. Harder to clean panels, sometimes dangerous depending on roof pitch.
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Notes on optimizers: They help my unshaded array in a number of ways. Obviously with snow as I show in the video, but also if a bird poops on a panel. There is even variability between the panels that makes a difference. Some panels just work slightly better than others, and the optimizers allow the better performing panels to produce what they can above the weaker panels. Without the optimizers I would lose that additional production. The counter argument is that the optimizers cost money, and I might never recuperate that cost with the additional efficiency I gain, which is admittedly small (and almost impossible to quantify accurately). However, my install was done through a co-op which required that I get the same package as everybody else which included the optimizers. My overall cost for the install was much cheaper because of that, so I'm happy with it.
Iron ridge ground mount system:
www.ironridge.com/ground-base...
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My wife passed this video on to me…you know, “The Gran.” Outstanding video, thanks. Subscribed
As a solar contractor myself I agree 100% with everything you said. My system includes batteries and I am 100% off grid with a 2800sq ft house. I also have a wood boiler and love love love heating with it.
Ground mount looks like it is definitely the way to go, thanks for explaining the differences. As far as the appearance goes I think the array is a thing of beauty and would be proud to show to friends and family!
I think the same thing about how they look. They look like progress and a triumph of technology to me.
The real point for me will always be the real estate for a solar array! For someone who has the extra space! I guess that's perfectly reasonable! Try to do that on tighter environments. Much like urban environment, and the area/cost would go trough the roof, literally! ;-)
On a properly designed system the roof orientation would be spot on from the start! Although we know that most houses are not properly "designed"! Someone just slap it together in some spot and call it day! Efficient design it's in it's infancy! And the vast majority of the general population don't even have a clue about it!
Additionally, properly mounted pv's on a roof, would still work cooler! AND Save you a LOT of money on AC! Refer back to the design part! Regions with little or no snow will also change the rules o the game quite abruptly! Production and usage on the same place will also save a lot in general infrastructures. Like structure, trenching digging, conducts, cabling! And so on...
About beauty.... Come on! If it was anything close to beautiful. People would stretch tarps or set plywood panels for a look alike! LOL 😂
That's another problem with roof mount. it takes away from the aesthetics of the roof and what if you have a slate or terracotta roof? Roof mounts are to me mostly for virtue signaling wokes not people who are serious about solar and wind power. These are the same people who don't have any batteries and expect all the rest of us to pay for their solar installation.
@@stuarthirsch beauty is in the mind of the beholder. Since I like the idea of solar I notice houses with solar and love seeing it.
a normal house is just background noise I don't even notice them. I like seeing new things so I notice metal roofs and like them. But the top of houses don't really interest me I more interested in the paint job.
We, solar enthusiasts, either love the look of solar panels or we're indifferent (like me, meh). But there are people that absolutely HATE the sight of solar panels. For that reason, it's best to build your array in an inconspicuous spot on your property if you can. For those who don't have the acreage to do so, or it's just impossible to hide them without shading them....well.... to heck with the neighbors! 🤪
I did roofing for almost 30 years and I can tell you that every hole in a roof will hit your wallet, such as replacing decking with shingles. If possible so ground mount. Great video.
These a LOT of extra weight in a large solar panel setup... add to that a big snow dump..it could be enough to course serious damage to a cheaply constructed house !!!.
I’ve really enjoyed your solar power series. I appreciate the candor and lessons learned.
So much great real-world information. Thanks for putting these together.
Those reasons are exactly why I went with a ground mount system. Good video!
Nice video, never really thought about the differences between the mounts.
Very nice project. I did the same thing at home in smaller. I have
a solar tracker 2 axes of 3.6kw. Thank you for explaining the principle.
So appreciate your precious time to teach!! Excellent tips👍...
I have essentially the same 9kw, SolarEdge system. But mine is on my shop roof that was built to be optimum orientation. Going on my 6th year - LOVE IT! I agree with everything you said, good info. I got almost 16 Mwh my first full year - but I am in Calif, no snow! :)
Thanks for the update and new info Im in my 2nd month of research and still dont know enough but I am getting closer thanks to you. Probably 2 more months before I make a decision of this magnitude. 2019 is last year of 30% rebait and I atleast wont make any of the 30 or so mistakes on other installs I've seen across UA-cam. Unfortunately mine will have to be roof mounted hopefully with the actuators. You said up to 40%, even if they only get 20% they will still pay for themselves quickly and this is a long term investment. Anyways thanks again. May all your days be sunny. Well, at least over your solar panels.
Yep. Definitely the way to go if you can do it. Thanks for the video.
Great video. We agree with ground mounting of solar panels vs. roof mounting.
Finally someone that actually knows what they are talking about. Back when the MicroFit programs started to be launched it seemed like no-one took into account the reduction roof output due to heat. Good video. We get similar output with our ground mount 10Kw system. We have a two position adjustment but that does not make a huge difference. We use a string inverter which I prefer due to MTBF but at least with a ground mount its easy to replace a micro inverter. Cheers John
Well, you just helped me to decide what to do at our second home; ground mounted! I have a slope close to the house, where I can place 30 to 40 panels, in such a way they cannot be seen from the house/ terrace. That's more than on the roof, and now I also know that it's just more smart. Plus, your construction will be a blue print for mine.
OUTSTANDING VIDEO!! My roof pitch is 16/12, or 53 degrees. WAY too steep to optimize solar, since we are at 33.4 degrees N. And for the best view, the house faces 150 degrees. My solar needs to face SW (225 degrees) because our grid is 5 times more expensive from 2 to 8 PM. So, ground mount it is!
Great video and content! Thanks.
I think you are right all I have to do now is to convince my son that it is he right way to go.
If I was going to install a roof mount if let's say a ground install wasn't practical in my case I would make sure roof seating was in good shape and I would install a metal roof so that I wouldn't have to Uninstaller my roof panels in the future for a re-roof job but I haven't thought this all through about what impact having a metal roof under the solar panels. Love watching your videos john and I learn a lot, thanks
Four years ago, when I was fifteen I took part in a education programm teaching kids technology.
We build a small solar array that can rotate itself on two axis, so that it alsways faces the sun at an optimal angel.
We had a 360 light sensor and an Arduino cumputer that automatically traced the sun.
The system had two batteries one small lithium Ion battery powering the cumputer and servos aswell as one lead acid battery.
On a sunny day the small thing could completly charge the lead acid battery.
When I say Lead Acid battery I am talking about a 12Volt car battery.
Good video, answered my questions. Thanks
Your absolutely correct. people don't realize how only a few degrees difference in the way a solar panel faces its light source will diminish the efficiency of its output. It's amazing the angle of the dangle makes it all work :0
Great information, thank you.
I like the advantages of a solar power station mounted on a dedicated trailer, such as the Greentow product.
Valuable information.
Thank you.
Nice setup
Just completed our first solar setup. Only 200ah LiFePo4 batteries and 5 Renogy 100w Monocrystalline panels. However, we are definitely scaling the system. Electricity in Oklahoma isnt really high, but we have other reasons for wanting solar. Ours is on the roof, but we are considering ground mounting for the next phase. Disadvantage is distance and cable, but that may still be worth gaining the other benefits.
I’m also not too thrilled about punching holes in my roof! Especially since I invested in a metal roof 15 years ago (long life, less weight in an earthquake zone). But since I don’t have space for a ground mount, I’m working on getting wall mount brackets (aka ‘solar awning ‘ - 2 story house) for a simple grid tie system in 2019 before the credit starts decreasing. The preliminary panel upgrade is going on as we speak.
“.....and then punch holes in your new roof.” Very persuasive! About 15 years ago I had a steel roof installed with a 30 year warranty. No way am I going to punch holes in that (unless I absolutely have to).
Great Job
Yeah, and I think your array is nice looking! You could always plant a cypress screen on the north side if you wanted. In 5 years, the back side wouldn't be seen at at.
Nice video! Yes looks like ground mount is way to go if you have the realestate for it. Ground mount can be very cheap if it's simple mount made from pressure treated wood, and tiltable to adjust to season too! Only trick is to get it approved by local building dept.
Solid info.
We have 8 more similar panels than your set up. We only pay an electric bill in the 4 hottest months. We receive a paycheck from the electric company the remainder of the year.
Ours also ground mounted with an adjustable rack to optimize inclination.
Good Job.
Birds are a big problem with rooftop solar and water collection in rural areas not connected to town water. Learnt the hard way installed 4kwh roof system and ripped it down after 2 months. Found birds nesting underneath. Hugh mess and huge job to decontaminate roof, tanks pipes. Will install ground mount system next time for sure.
Nice build! Regarding choice though you could also consider that long electrical run to the house and inverter/bank and expense/loss.
Makes sense to me well done
I am in the process of cutting down a piece of forest so that I can install the solar panels, just as you described.
thanks for the information and for sharing it with us.
I subscribed years ago.
I love your tree felling videos, I learned a lot from them.
Good video and work.
I would recommend to make the pillars for the underconstruction out of bricks. Thats way cheaper, more ecological and i think it looks better.
Maybe it takes a bit longer to build it.
thanks for info
I have a 15 panel 4.2kw ground mount system with microinverters that I build and installed for $5423 before the 30% tax rebates. Annual production is 6.1 -6.25 Mw for the last 3 years. I have a canyon wall that faces south that I carved to a 38 degree angle which works great for Rapid City, South Dakota, so I lucked out for location. I use a snow rake (for a house roof) to clean off the snow in the winter. Works great!
Nice
Whose microinverter did you choose and why? Thanks
Yeah company that installed my system used 10 ft screw anchors gave me the choice between that or boring holes filling them with concrete and putting the rack post in that way needless to say I went with the screw anchors to concrete route with the post was almost $3,000 more added 2D install cost because of the price of concrete bags.
Thank you!
Excellent video, thanks for taking the time to do it. Would you mind, if time permits, discuss the cost of the system and mounts (without state or federal incentives) I'm interested in a similar system for my place in NW Ontario Canada.
Also tree "mount". Mounted elevated on poles they provide shading.
Sound advice..👍
In the South, or really anywhere with more cooling than heating days, the effect of shading the roof is not inconsequential.
Makes sense to me.
OK. You have right.
Yup as a solar installer roof mounts have so many more limitations and variables if you have the space go with ground mount ,it'll require a trench but it just takes a lil longer then running conduit
Do you tell your customers that?
Good points. I wonder how many people do both roof and ground.
SMART AND YOU HAVE TO CLEAN THEM!!!!!
For the price of optimizers for each panel I would think you could put that money in another string of solar panels and the mounting for them for another string and way out perform the benefit of optimizers . But only if no shading . Love your ground mount , about to start on mine .
Smart man. Another good option is making the panels a covering for an outdoor kitchen or porch/patio (especially in a hot climate, where you need some shade). In a hot climate your could probably go fairly low pitch.
You read my mind!! My house gets so hot over the summer, I thought placing ground panels high enough to block the sun would be the way to go…
Food for thought... most insurance companies will include the array when it's attached to the house. They will not when it's on the ground. A severe hail storm can easily destroy panels.
Well, when solar panels cost less than the racking they're mounted on, I'm willing to take that chance :)
About an hour after Sunrise I wasn't getting much power and then I tilted my panels towards the Sun and was putting out near their Max Capacity. By this calculation tracking the sun would greatly greatly increase the amount of kilowatt hours harvested.
I've never tested it myself, but according to google research it increases by up to 40%.
Roof angle is a part of it. But the other key is HEAT. Hot panels provide less electricity. Ground panels run cooler and provide more juice.
Living in a small city, I do not feel comfortable about have solar panels ground mouthed. The worst case scenarios would be theft, vandalism, land use and HOA restrictions, and space considerations. For roof installed solar panels, the best case situation would be to build a house with back of the house with a simple roof (for example, no dormers) which will face south and roof pitched at the perfect angle. Another consideration would be to have roof access through the attic through dormers in the front of the house. I would also build the roof using metal roofing materials.
My wife and I live in a rural area of Saint Clair county Michigan. We have about 12 acres and were considering a solar array on our barn roof. After watching your video, there is no doubt we will go with the ground mounted system. Curious as to how many panels would be needed to produce about $300.00 worth of electricity each month. We would prefer to be totally independent from DTE.
Awesome system! You have a pretty sharp angle on your panels....is there a time of year where the sun gets back behind the angle of the panels? If so, how much does production drop? Does it turn off completely if the sun is not shining directly into them?
great
Hello, viewed you two excellent videos on ground mounted system. I too have a rural setting and am planning a ground mount system. What ground mount system did you use. I am aware of iron ridge. Theirs appear higher off the ground. For ease of construction I like the looks of yours. Will you please explain the steps for placing the poles! I know they are deep, the poles are precisely placed to accept the horizontal piping! Too, what is the cost of your system without the battery backup?
Ground mount is definitely the way to go if you have the room. and no ground shading.
Biggest negative of groundmount is local permits. Here they mandate huge deep footings and very high-end loadings. Drives the cost so high it makes solar negative ev overall.
How do you manage during the winter time when sun exposure decrease drastically. Have you thought about combining using the wind eolien?
Just replace all the shingles around your panel array on the roof. Remember, the shingles under the panels are no longer exposed to the sun. They will last. Therefore, you shouldn't have to take your setup down.
Nice mount.
The steel will probably give up before the panels.. they work for way more than 50 years.. more than the steel will last.
Unfortunately my house would probably shade the panels in the evening killing my efficiency.
You sell the excess back to the power company?
How did you run the cabling back you home? did you have to bury 6' in trench?
have you heard/read about the sphere solar panel?
Do you need an optimizer for each panel or could you run 1 optimizer per x panels in series?
What do you mean by high winds and how mush winds you think the panels can take.160 mph winds
Optimizers are basically by-pass diodes, right? The panels won't produce at the rate of the lowest one, having one panel fully shaded can reduce the power output of the whole string by half and the missing power will be turned into heat inside the shaded panel.
Ground systems are definitely much better than roof mounted or building integrated ones and their main down-side is that they require space - which is a huge deal in an urban environment.
Can you add optimizers to existing panels?
How many kw is installed and how much are you producing on average for summer and winter months? If allowable, where is your array, ie Buffalo NY. I don’t want you getting stalked but I’m around Chicago IL and was looking at installing a little more than my tiny amount and was hoping to get a comparison. Hopefully out of here some day and I want something closer to what you have.
how much it code to run lines into your house main electric panel?
Did Ironridge sell these parts directly to you? Do you have a parts list? Happy to pay you for the parts list? How far can you put panels from your house or barn?
Would there be any gain in efficiency by just adjusting the angle of the mount seasonally? This could perhaps be done manually if the mount was built that way from the beginning and far less expensive than a tracker. Interesting vid. Been thinking about this since snow is a regular nuisance where I live.
Yes but once the extra work in making panel mounts that have at least one axis capability you may as well put an actuator on it
Travis Sanders True. Not much expense in that. Since I live at roughly 60-61 degrees north I think there’d be a lot to gain from being able to adjust the angle of the panels. Seems that ground mounts are the way to go provided you have the real estate to build it on.
I thought about adjusting the tilt, but my research showed only modest gain, and it would be a lot of work that would take much of the strength and rigidity out of my mount. We get some high winds and I opted to leave it alone so I don't have to worry about it. It certainly could be done, though.
FarmCraft101 what angle is your system? Seems low for your latitude?
How about wind, which one will take the most wind ?
What wattage are each of those panels and how many do you have?
It seems like one long row of panels on top of a chain link fence would allow a single actuator and single motorized axess at a cost-effective price.
Look up bifacial panels. They produce power on both sides to work as a fence.
@@brianfackrell4139 that would be interesting to harvest a lot of power in the morning and evening but none at noon
Either way, I choose both Ground and Roof mounts, including adding 2 wind turbines saving a stink-load of money on anyone's electric bills.
"Hey, let's go have a picnic under the solar panels!"
Or on them
@@relikvija: Haha, just about, if you could keep from sliding off!
I've read that keeping your panels cooler improves performance and lifespan. I wonder if a worthwhile system could be made to cool them? Cooling the back of the panels with water that feeds into your hot water system, needed less energy to get to the final temperature? Like using that black solar water heating sheeting fixed to the underside of the panels. Either that, or and array of peltier modules with heat syncs on the other side, to generate even more power?
Those things increase cost significantly and nullify any efficiency gains caused by cooling
@@shrujanamsyama9940 you could run the warmer water into your hot water system and reduce the amount of energy needed for your hot water.
@@dpjazzy15 Solar water heaters are over 4 times as efficient as solar panels. Evacuated tube collectors is one of the most efficient forms of solar thermal collectors with efficiency of about 85-90% of the solar energy. The measly heat gained in the back of electric solar panels is insignificant compared to what can be harnessed by thermal collectors.
The amount of equipments and tubing that are needed to be installed in cooling solar panels is more than the equipments needed for a simple solar water heater. In India, it costs just $150 to get solar thermal collector capable of heating upto 200l of water in humid tropical climates.
@@shrujanamsyama9940 so really the problem is the manufacturing price of the cooling system. Ultimately it could be a foil pouch with thermal epoxy, glued to the back of the panels with an inlet and outlet. You would use the water and pressure from the regular water main and the outlet would feed your water heater. If it's colder outside than the temperature of the panels, you could install a valve to switch between the main water and solar water. It's not about replacing a solar water heater. It's about siphoning a little more energy where you can, using a cheap and simple solution. Also improving the lifespan of the solar panels. They do better when cooler. And of course solar water heaters are really efficient, moreso than electric solar panels, but I consume more electricity than hot water and converting hot water to electricity also has significant losses.
@@dpjazzy15 There are a few problems to this idea:
- The foil pouch won't handle the pressure and hence won't remain for long
- If you have a situation where days are hot and nights are cold, you will have to switch the valve twice a day which is very inconvenient.
- To siphon energy, you will have to stick the tubings to solar panel's underneath for heat exchange as air is a very poor conductor. This is a very complicated task as the solar panels are generally very light and fragile except the frames. You can even lift a 330W solar panel using a single finger with mild difficulty (I know as I have done it).
The only way to cool solar panels will be to attach thin strips of copper conductors to act as a radiator but that will increase expense significantly as copper is expensive and making such installation will be expensive.
Now with a design change, it may be possible to have solar panels and solar water heater combined in the same panel, but that may be far worse as making the solar panels along with thermal collectors would mean the panels temperature would rise to 100 celsius as the thermal collectors will transfer some of its energy to the solar cells, far above the temperature otherwise.
how about hurricanes though
I just have to deal with the hurricane wind requirements 😢
Whose optimizer system please?
I wonder if using some house jacks, if one could adjust the angle manually.
You could do something like that, but have to make sure you don't weaken the structure which would put it at risk in high winds.
Just facing due south?
Unfortunately, some don't have the real estate for ground mounted systems.
Looks like a 3" Ironridge ground mount.
Or build a carport with panels on it
where do you leave, means which country you are
How many panels you have
Ground its Best.
I'm admittedly ignorant regarding this issue, but I was wondering about the initial cost in cable/conduit from the panels to your home. I don't recall you mentioning this factor, and obviously the distance is much shorter from roof to "point of use" than say your setup is. Using your setup as an example, [b/c of the distance], how much time would it take to recover that cost? Is the cable expensive, and is conduit even needed? BTW...thanks for the information. (:{I>
My system is a little unusual because I power 2 buildings with it. I have freezers in the shop that need power, so the wire between the buildings is really not additional cost. It would be necessary either way. The wire from the panels to the shop is an 8 gauge direct bury cable. No conduit. It's a little pricey, but because the system transmits at 360V, it doesn't have to be a huge wire, so not too bad on cost. I probably added an additional 75' of wire compared to putting the array on the roof. Maybe $150 I'm guessing.
Why not just have swivels on the top bar and bottom bar put it on a screw system to tilt. The panels.?
Who's gonna go out there every couple hours to re-adjust it? Probably more hassle than it's worth without it being automated, which is expensive as he pointed out.
wtf kind of concrete did you use that it cost 750 for those post?
Lots of it? That panel set is a huge sail. The foundation not only has to keep it upright and not sinking, but also resist being pulled out by wind loads etc. Possibly not even single post casts, but a base plate or at least base wall casts in line with the posts to also help with holding the geometry correct. One extra to list of the foundation demands. Has to hold the geometry so the panels stay in correct alignment.