How the Pro League is slowly killing Rainbow Six Siege
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- Опубліковано 19 тра 2024
- Siege is slowly being killed by the Pro League, facing one of the most intense identity crisis I have ever seen in a game.
Download link to my games:
bullhead-studios.itch.io/ - Ігри
watched the whole thing and i disagree with a lot with what you said but i understand why you think what you do. i think a lot of issues pros have regular players also have. regular players may not be as upset about it or complain as loudly but everyone who plays r6 would be heated when they die from a nade through the ground and now gotta spectate (especially new players who don’t understand cooking nades from below or know the spots) so the nade nerf makes sense. shield buff was definitely a community thing people have wanted since they have been useless for a long time and it’s a FUN loudout to run. i think this game is lacking in a casual aspect but all my irl friends who don’t play ranked still have a great time just shooting people and trying out whatever crazy idea comes to mind. if they had a better polished Arcade playlist i think that’s all itd really take and fill the times between christmas, halloween, and april fools events with other fun game modes then people can hop on and play something different that “attack vs defense”. i think the games in a really healthy spot, nothing is in the game that shouldn’t be and balancing is good enough that you can have fun or sweat your heart out.
While I don’t necessarily agree with your statements, you do present a lot of good arguments I had not considered.
I did not mention the Arcade playlist at all, truthfully I forget it’s even in the game half the time because, as you said, it’s lackluster. I agree, I think Arcade does need some new modes and features to help keep a casual side of the game entertained.
I also hadn’t thought of brand new players not knowing about ‘nade cooking, and once again, fair point, I think that’s actually a really valid argument against cooking. I still disagree with its removal but I hadn’t thought of what you said, and it makes sense.
@@varsityreviews707 yeah the skill curve felt nice and now nade kills have to be more creative. (bounced off ceilings or shooting out half of the floor and throwing them between floorboards). tbf im top 7k on console so maybe i’m biased with some of the nerf/buffs part since it makes sense on a competitive level but maybe not so much on a fun scale which is a nod to your point that it isn’t as casual friendly as it could be.
there’s been small steps like the arcade playlist but there’s a lot still missing in that aspect. the biggest issue my friends have when they started was a bunch of random settings that should be changed and it not being very descriptive or useful at all (screen shake, lean behavior, drone deployment and gadget deployment and a lot of sensitivity settings) and also the amount of time to learn maps so if there was a better casual option than the abysmal TDM/FFA game modes to just run around maps and at least learn layouts i think that’d be huge and also just remove some awful settings that make no sense like screen shake???? and keep some things consistent like just remove some of the useless options like standard drone deployment.
either way they have a lot to change to make it better for the 9-5 joe with 3 kids who just wants to play a video game and just relax but the game is still WAY healthier casually compared to a few years ago.
100% agreed.
I just don't like when they rework fun map like house
@@moneykingmm9298 they rework because "pro" which is actually noob (i can defeat them in 1v1 in old map) complains so so so so damn much about how it ruins their career
My impression with this game was that it was always meant to be some sort of live service multiplayer game, with lore updates that would've reflected Terrorist Hunt.
Would've made sense.
A credible leaker did say PvE raids were planned at one point, but cancelled. That would’ve been really cool.
Imagine weekly PvE operations that involve things like, defusing a bomb then extracting a hostage while terrorists try to stop you. Similar to Article 5 in a way
@@Tyler-vu8yr that would’ve been sick
compete to have fun, is siege now.... what a way to run a game that was never supposed to be competitive, but rather tactical
And then it changed now it is a comp shooter
The game isn't ruined, it's just built for a different audience now. You can still play ranked casually and meme around. It's what you make of it.
I'd also argue that Pro players make other aspects worse inadvertently due to Ubisoft listening to only them, such as the removal of article 5, removal of Bartlett in custom games, you can't play night maps or the old maps in customs, and nowadays it feels like ubisoft is trying their hardest to make playing defense a worse experience
Would you elaborate that last part? From my understanding most people argue that defense is TOO strong, how is ubi “trying their hardest to make playing defense a worse experience”?
While I would agree, I'm with Blink, what do you mean they're trying to make Defense a worse experience?
I haven’t watched a gaming tournament in years but I watched the pro league this year and it was absolutely phenomenal. The gameplay was r6 in full form displaying how the game was meant to be played.
This is a tactical team based shooter and it plays as such. Being a defensive sided game is not an issue either because defending is easier than attacking in nearly every game I can think of. Pushing a difficult objective in a competitive shooter isn’t supposed to be fun however, winning difficult situations is fun for the types of people r6 wants to retain.
Maps like clubhouse are easy to attack, oregon, consulate is basically the same execution as the last one.
The fun in siege isn’t for everyone, it’s a competitive shooter that attracts skillful players and reward commitment. I think arcade is a fun warm up mode but the fun for me in r6 is when I lab a site setup and it works or when I plan an attack and it works.
I can sit in custom games and lab angles or open up the map blueprints, then give strategies to my team. The joy and payoff I feel is incomparable when planned strategies work in ranked.
Even with the headshot simulator, I used to get crapped on until I hit the range daily and ran peeking drills for a month. Afterwards I started clicking heads and getting crazy one taps, and wallbangs i’d never have experienced in any other game.
This is the fun in r6 and it’s not for everyone, it also shouldn’t be for everyone.
They want a game that’s competitive and requires giving it the respect of understanding what it is you’re getting into.
In any game there’s a meta as well and there will always be one, the meta is just what most people find effective and that’s prevalent in every game.
I remember in r6 vegas 2 you’d get kicked from the game for not having a mic or rejected from clans based on your K.D lol tom clancy’s FPS games were and are always going to be sweaty and competitive, that’s why I love them and the people who are loyal to these games love them too.
i fully agree with that
I miss t-hunt. It was fun for what it was
All they do now is just nerf operators to appease the sweaty pros. The game would be truly alive if we had launch blackbeard, lion, and ela.
No, it wouldn’t be truly alive if we had launch BB and Lion. Would it be more fun? Maybe, but it wouldn’t be alive.
the COD meta have changed siege for the worst
I agree. Sometimes i just want to chill in a casual game but its even sweatier and higher MMR than my ranked lobbies... not much room for fun
This is off the cuff and I'm writing as I'm going along, but here's my (unorganized) thoughts:
Ubi's end goal for Siege was to make it competitive shooter with a pro scene. There wasn't a dedicated single player/co-op campaign like the older games, but the PvP multiplayer and barebones PvE was all there was. My interpretation of Xavier Marquis's words is that he wanted to create an authentic experience that wasn't necessarily realistic. Authenticity would be a better way to describe what Siege was going for, rather than realism.
Counter-Strike has attacking and defending, is very balanced, and it's still one of the most popular competitive games of all time. In Siege, attackers still have a lot of utilities that defenders don't have to even the odds. Unbalanced games can be fun. But in PvP, it's bad in the long term since it will create a stale meta that will get old real fast. See Vegas Famas and grenade spam like in this video. In Siege, Blackbeard, Lion, and Ela were all released overpowered and just weren't fun to play against. They had to be nerfed or there was just no reason to play other ops and the person(s) on the receiving end won't have any fun.
I think Siege can work in a competitive environment. This is anecdotal, but I also played Siege for my uni and I really enjoyed it (even though we got our asses kicked 9/10 times). It was not mindless like ranked. We actually have use teamwork and strategy to win. Playing Siege at a higher level really opened my eyes that the game can be fun AND competitive. Your experience may vary.
There are plenty of bad examples of reworks like House and Hereford (both for casual, but you get the idea). But there's also plenty of good reworks like Kanal and Oregon that make the maps more fair and fun to play in. Though, I still lament the loss of night maps and wish they were still in casual. But Pro League could just choose day maps only, so it's not their issue but Ubi's issue for being too lazy to make night versions of reworks.
Ranked changes are basically just for ranked players. Pro League doesn't use ranked to practice or for any metrics. Banning new maps and ops are just for ranked sweats that don't want to learn and be challenged. Pro League definitely use teamwork, strategies and smart plays to win. Ranked players just want to play CoD in Siege.
T-hunt was changed to essentially make it a warmup, true. But the removal all together even got Pro League complaining, as they did use it for warming up.
Zofia's self-revive was planned to be removed before that match. I don't like a single op having a special ability that others don't have. It just screams, "OC do not steal." It was confusing and went against the game's more intuitive design.
I'm pretty sure every complained about Nøkk losing silent step.
Frag grenades were a balancing hot potato like the 1.5. Both needed to be changed since they inherently changed the balance of every op they touched. Frags were nerfed because of depth charging and there was no counter-play to that. More ops could use frags like IQ (oh how I missed them) to clear out gadgets, or Deimos would be broken with cooking frags. Before the removal of cooking, the devs experimented with many different ideas. Many of which would be unbalanced and unfun.
Professional players are definitely fans of Siege. Otherwise, they could be making more money playing Counter-Strike for example.
I've heard some people talk about removing OSHS *cough MacieJay cough*, but I don't think that will ever change. Plus OSHS keeps the game balanced and fair, since even if you're not a good gunner, you can still get kills doing smart plays.
I do agree that hostage and secure should be in standard and ranked. If people don't want them, they could filter it out when that was still a thing.
Siege does have a parasite, but it's not the pros. It's the ranked CoD kids that don't understand the game and want it to be mindless. We wouldn't be talking about this if Ubi made a proper PvE standalone Siege. Outbreak and Extraction (RIP) are good in their own right, but there is still a market for PvE tactical shooters. I still really hope for the day Ubi makes another PvE Rainbow Six game again. But my ideal Siege would be the aesthetic and authenticity of launch, and the gameplay of now.
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Ubi's end goal for Siege was to make it competitive shooter with a pro scene. - Are you sure on that? I have never heard nor seen something to reflect that. Nothing in the game at launch supports this thoery.
- My interpretation of Xavier Marquis's words is that he wanted to create an authentic experience that wasn't necessarily realistic. Authenticity would be a better way to describe what Siege was going for, rather than realism. - Maybe so, but the fact remains, Siege at launch was built around realism. That's why there were so many particle effects, lighting, sound design, etc. that reflected realism.
I read all this but, a lot of flaws i disagree with and some valid ones.
As an ex-semi pro league player in old old siege before I became washed, pros got too much say.
@@varsityreviews707 There was never a dedicated campaign and it was almost always marketed as a competitive shooter. The reveal trailer was a fake competitive match. The actual alpha game play was a competitive match. Ubi copied the 5v5 format of Counter-Strike to make it a competitive shooter.
@@Maximus0451 I mean, sure maybe the original trailer showed off the multiplayer, so do most CoD trailers. But there were also trailers showing off its Terrorist Hunt mode too.
@@varsityreviews707 That is true that T-hunt did get marketing. But the lack of updates and even the (egregious) removal of content really shows where Ubi’s priorities really are. Fun fact: a creditable leaker said that PvE raids were planned, but cancelled.
My favourite era of all time was Chimera
Chimera was a masterpiece
well that was an awful waste of my time
And yet you still commented.
@@varsityreviews707 and the video was spot on. Keep it up. +1 sub
I agree things were changed because pro players didn't like something like grenades being taken away from IQ if you were there back than and it just kept snowballing things for me have gotten worst the new ui is ugly too much is going on in the screen i miss the more tactical siege not the game we have now
Nooo you need to rush through the building like you’re sonic in body armor, it’s not funnnn to play slow and tactical
@@varsityreviews707 and that's the new fucking meta lol
Such a fall from grace.
For game like r6 to have long life, it need good esport.
Dead By Daylights doing alright and it doesn’t have an esport scene
@@varsityreviews707 it does, they have community cup hosted for 9 seasons and they plays very competitively with 41K followers on twitch
I don't fully agree but I do think the pro league has caused more problems than it solved.
In most team based competitive play, alot of the changes are done with the pros in mind. Some characters are horrible in ranked but good in pro. The opposite is true. This makes developers balance the game for 2 conflicting sides
My point is is the game was never designed to be JUST a competitive shooter.
Heres a thought that just came to me. Its probably not possible, but what if they made a seperate version of the game which had these changes and updates for pro league. The other version of the game is the popular and actual game thats fun and dumb. I guess it would be complicated to manage two style projects of the same game, but it would make it fair and enjoyable for both the players and pro players. What do you think Varsity Reviews???
While I would be on board with that, going about developing that would be a nightmare. Instead I think it would be much easier to just add in "pro league rules" to competitive play that adds the nerfs.
@@varsityreviews707 Thats a more realistic alternative but still would love to see this game shift a bit more towards the players that give love to the game and the community.
@@m9dness268 I agree
Lmao holy yap this is absolutely ridiculous takes blaming everything on the pro scene. People actually blame pros for any change they don’t like it’s actually insane been playing since y3s3
Do you have a counter argument for why siege is significantly worse than its Y3S3 counterpart?
@@varsityreviews707You can only view it as being worse from your viewpoint as a casual player. From a comp standing, the game is in its healthiest state ( ignoring cheaters, which is the true killer of siege imo). Every op feels viable if properly supported. You can win either by being gifted mechanically, or by being a good igl and understanding how to read every round. I think devs saw that most of its player base was the ranked stars and competitive scene, especially before the Jynxzi resurrection that brought new light to the game. It made sense to taylor the game around ranked/comp scene since thats where their playerbase was. Now they are kind of going back to show casual more love i.e. bringing night maps back soon. I do agree that more could definitely be done to support the casual scene as long as it doesn't involve balancing.
@@mathewhsms are you serious? How many people had begged for an Azami, Fenrir and Solis nerf? How many games is Jackal not banned in? How many times is Sens and Blackbeard picked? How many pro players want one shot head shots removed and smokes immunity to his own grenades? The game is absolutely not in a healthy state competitively.
@@varsityreviews707 Would you rather have Blackboard, Lion and Ela from initial release in the game? Or how about the broken movement mechanics from the old days where beaulo peaking was prevalent? Maybe you want the utility dump meta where 2:45 seconds is spent clearing utility and there's only 15 seconds to try and do anything? Yes, in a game where there are 71 operators, some will rise to the top and others will fall. And To your point about specific ops: Azami was recently nerfed and is now in a much better state. Solis and fenrir nerf is right around the corner. Jackal is a bit oppressive but that is the purpose of bans: to remove an op you don't want to play against. You can run viable strats around Sens and the Blackboard rework is right around the corner. I've only heard a handful of pro players want 1 shot heads hots removed. And most that do support that change want it due to shots through surfaces because most people agree that you shouldn't die because Timmy in silver is randomly mag dumping a wall and gets a recoil headshot because 1 bullet landed to the head. Not really rewarding gamepley from both sides... For smoke, that change was almost universally disliked, hence why it was reverted. Yes, the game isn't perfect, I'll surrender that point to you, but it IS in its best state that it's ever been in competitively.
Can we get a link to some of your games? I just wanna see what they are like. If you don't want to share them here thats fair, I would likely not trust some rando on the internet either lol.
As for the video, some far points but it is not like the devs are hiding the fact that they are leaning into the comp side of it. While I do disagree with some of the changes that they make many are not targeted a pros and many most of the player base of happy with (of course that is kinda up for debate). I too disagree with QM being hidden behind a level, makes little sense lol.
I just realized the link to my games never showed up in the description. It's fixed now if you want to check them out. Only playable on Windows just FYI.
Are you at all related to/associated with Varsity Gaming?
I am not. Our names are an unfortunate coincidence. I started UA-cam seriously about 3 or 4 years ago and wanted to make movie and game reviews with an “athletic” theme. But I happened to be a fan of the Rainbow Six games, and after I made a video on the franchise a year ago and it got pretty good views I decided to make more videos on Rainbow Six.
That’s why a got back to bf4
i think there’s a point to be made that at high level the game isn’t actually always defence sided. because of peakers advantage and drones attacking in a high rank game is sometimes harder to defend some maps
Maybe the absolute best players are able to complete counter any artificial advantages the defense would have but that’s not really a “it’s not defense sided” argument
@@varsityreviews707 I see what you mean but I'm not just talking about the best of the best. even in ranks like emerald and above, good attacking players sometimes have an advantage against other good defending players. its map specific but yeah seige is mostly a defender sided game unless the attackers use drones and Peaker's advantage better then the defense can hold the position
@@forbest34 you're argument falls apart though because you said IF the Attackers use their drones and abuse the peaking mechanic better than the Defenders. I understand what you're trying to say, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter if the Attackers COULD have an advantage IF they do a certain thing better than the other team.
@@varsityreviews707 thats the thing, defenders cant stop you from finding out where they are when roaming, theres always going to be one of dok jackel daimos. sure the defense generally has an advantage but the way this is balanced is the pace of the round is determined by the attackers. sure if you suck at droning and suck at pre-firing common angles youre going to suck at attack, but the whole point im making about the game not being entirely defense sided because attackers can drone what ops the defense picked and change what they want to do. if you see no mute or vigil you can swap to daimos. thats one advantage the attackers have. another advantage is being able to choose what part of the map you want to take with hard breach and zoning ops. you can drone to find out where the roamers are where at the defense only has cameras that are usually shot or blown up by kali/ ashe. sure the defense starts with the advantage but attackers can take that advantage back. its kinda the whole point of the game and the reason for drones on attack in the first place. the whole point is you play defense and attack each. when you defend its your job to deny info and waste time. when you attack you have to gather info and take space. taking space is hard when youre new and dont know the maps but most players good have all the maps memorized. also ubisoft didnt balance the game to favor terrible players who dont drone, dont swing, dont pre fire. they balanced the game knowing that attackers hvae more ways of putting the advantage in their hands. again, attackers choose what wall to take, they can choose what space they want to clear and what space they want to ignore, they can find out where defenders are way easier then defenders can find them, they can swap operators in prep, also being the team that has to defend two bomb sites is sometimes a disadvantage because if the attackers pick off a few defenders, they can force the defense to have to do something by planting in safe spots, sure the attackers are forced to do stuff quickly because of the round timer but when its a 3v3 being able to plant is usually an advantage. all im saying is if you think siege is a defense sided game on every map every site, then maybe its time to watch some UA-cam guides on how to attack properly, because trust me the game is more attacker sided then its ever been.
I agree with some of this but the unbalanced state was simply not sustainable. It was fine when nobody knew how to play the game, but as people played longer all of the problems just became more and more prevalent as people learned to abuse everything. If the game was still in the same state as it was years ago, it would be genuinely an unplayable experience.
I'm not saying changes weren't necessary, but I'm saying the changes made weren't good. I'd argue if Siege ended up dying in 2019 when Warden and Nokk were released, while it wasn't the most balanced state, it would've been in a good in between state.
@@varsityreviews707 Was that before or after the changes to animation speeds? Because that was a super necessary change at least. I think their balancing team was doing great until around the time they added more scopes and it's been quite bad since. And to me it seems like they're moving into a better direction again after realizing their mistakes. I only really disagree with the nade nerf because defense literally has similar through-the-floor damage with c4.
@@hachikuji_mayoi Not sure if the movement speed was changed, I think it was slower than launch, but not what it's like now.
@@varsityreviews707 I mean lean and crouch speed
@@hachikuji_mayoi oh yeah I don’t think they were nerfed yet
dog video
Amazing video!! I never liked pros making the changes it should be the players, not pros.
1.5x deserved to be removed I hate it
Old siege is always good
1.5 removal was one of the few balancing changes that was good
@varsityreviews707 yeah, I hated 1.5 it ruined the game I quit bc of it lol
@@ULFcs valid reason to end a competitive career.
fr man.. can they stop nerving all the fun operators into the ground? Valorant has literally the exact same problem, instead of buffing certain operators, they just keep making every operator worse and worse
Problem is is pro league players don’t want a unique game, they want an aim trainer. They want to be seen like Counter Strike Players and want the game on a balanced field
Beautiful video bro, amazingly put!
Appreciate it!
I was gonna say "this guy should mention dead by daylight"
And surely you did lol
Also, i hate pro league... they got Nøkk nerfed, they suck
( also shes not worthless )
The maps being with how they are, ubisoft is still making the maps unique and balanced, so far all the new maps are actually pretty good, the map reworks kinda suck ngl... only a few are good
Now certain things that were changed were deserved...
Now with other things that were removed, the problem is they changed it and made it worse, they shouldn't have removed secure area from ranked but instead make it more balanced
They shouldn't have removed night maps and instead make the lighting actually work
Good vid
I don't they rework fun map like house
I bet the pro league won't like this video.
I don’t care if they do or don’t
Watched jt all and heavily disagree. I liked old Siege and vibe was cool but imbalance is trash and not fun. Fun is beyond subjective so arguing from it does not make your opinion any more relevant than just your opinion. I do miss the more realistic and tactical vibe but imbalance creates stagnation as evident by the Vegas 2 clip. When PL comps constituted nothing but the same ops then we have issues. Next to no one wants to play anything less than the best. As evident when I play Arcade a fourth of the players are Ash R4-C. It is a drag. Balance is pertinent and things you noted as "fun" like Nook gadget yhay circumvented too much game utility is insane. Ela launch was ridiculous and even her gadget before nerf, excluding gun nerf, was awful. You throw it like an impact flash that slowed and atunned. That ain't fun to deal with. Nor was Ela shotgun or being fragged from below. I die without a chance in the world to retaliate or interact and now I sit in spectator mode/non-inteeacying with the game for 5 minutes. That ain't fun either.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I’m not saying it shouldn’t have a competitive side, I’m saying that at the cost of taking away casual features it shouldn’t be doing that.
What an awful video. It shows a complete lack of understanding of what siege is today. The major is on right now and clearly you'd rather spit out nostalgia addled filth than create room for discussion.
I agree with this. R6 is the most popular its been in a long time. Its in such a great state right now.
We can have a discussion. What do you want to talk about?
What siege is today is basically because of esports. The current surge isn't due to ranking 2.0 or operator nerfs, but only because esports is popping more than ever. The game is indeed ran by esport champs and big influencers, but more and more players are starting to feel the game become toxic. This is just my observation, but im the average siege player it game was created for.
What is bro saying? Bro probably loves how new siege works bc he never played old siege
@jonbikaku6133 fat cap. Siege got revived because of Jinxzi. They are adding the least content of any season next season, the cheaters are at a max and the reworked maps (casual ones like house) have been terribly made. This game isn't what it used to be and without content creators like Jinxzi (btw he became #1 on twitch for awhile), this game would have died
If YOU dont have fun then DONT play
Trust me buddy, if I didn't care about the game I wouldn't be talking about it
@@varsityreviews707 all im saying is the game is still fun playing casual
@@azure8676 I never said it wasn't still fun, but it's less fun with less options now.
@@varsityreviews707 i just disagree, there's more ops better maps AND comp is good aswell
@@azure8676 the maps aren’t better though. They’re generic. The older maps might have been less balanced but they were more fun. The newer maps are more balanced but less fun. The most fun maps in the game are Lair, Nighthaven and Emerald.
I personally stopped playing after they took out zofia's ability to stand up, just because pro players whining about it while not being able to kill a dude with one hp. When the devs start taking out unique abilities from characters thats when you know the game is gonna get worse from there. Seems like nothing has changed since then and thats disappointing to be honest.
Yeah for real. By far one of the dumbest nerfs they’ve ever done
games don’t last unless they have a pro scene
Goober statement
Payday 2 is still doing strong.
Aiight bro go make elden ring or minecraft tournaments then
Dead by Daylight
And I could name millions of Single-player games lol
@@Chill_Lynx co op game
Pro league isn't killing this game, bs rank mode and cheaters are. Stop bitching about Pro League, is not the problem.
Pro league absolutely is the problem. The changes made to ranked wouldn’t have happened if the pro league didn’t keep pushing to make this game more and more competitive