@@pocahontasgirl1 First time I went to see this musical it was three months after my dad died. I didn't know much about it, my Dad was the one who wanted to go. The tickets had been for both of us to go together. That song started up and I lost it in the theater and just fell apart completely. I still can't hear that song without tearing up.
The phrase that resonated with me the most out of this whole episode was "A lot of times the monsters that we're scared of are the ones that we create by our lack of compassion". It's an incredibly thoughtful view, full of empathy and responsibility.
That is entirely the point of the book, too. Because he had all this talent and *capacity* to be a great person but was utterly ruined by society's abuse of him and then he in turn perpetuated the cycle in abusing others. Just... not bullying people solves so many problems.
God yeah, it’s also why I am so attached to the character of The Phantom tbh. Like, while I didn’t end up like him (fiction is a fun house reflection of reality), I can certainly see ways in my past that could’ve turned such. Hell I still cry like a baby at his fate, especially if I’m listening to the 25th anniversary soundtrack! It’s so good. Stab me in the heart more, ALW!
I remember when I first watched this as a teenager and I was so upset that Christine and Phantom didn't end up together. Now as an adult I rewatched it and realized what the movie was trying to do and all of the messages it was trying to get across. Definitely can't blame Christine since me too as a teenager thought Phantom was dreamy
Technically Erik was too tortured to be a partner, so I accept Christine's choice. He was abused for so long wouldn't really know how to be in a healthy relationship. I like them as friends.
That's why I don't understand why people see as canon that so called "sequel" where they make Christine and the Phantom ship actually happen. "Is so romantic!", no, is so problematic....
Yeah, I loved this when I was a teen. I remember telling people she was boring for not choosing Phantom. To be fair, the flashback is what made me sympathize with him. I also just didn't like Raoul. He was just money in a nice suit which doesn't appeal to me.
I love that you pointed out that she's more afraid of his anger than any physical deformity. Other versions and the book make so much more of his face than any other character flaw
Well the book doesn't focus on a single defect because the Phantom has many problems. His violence is explained but it isn't excused. His facial scars are also explained, but the way the Phantom addressed them was not by overcoming his trouble, but rather to wear a mask and hide in the sewers. I also think the point of the original work was not even a character analysis of the Phantom, but a criticism of theater and what essentially was "Hollywood culture" of the 1800s.
@@l_rob420I think Butler is still playing an abusive serial murdering lunatic, but the focus is more on the charisma and manipulation than the latter and we get more sympathy for him so it’s hard to see him as just a murderer.
Because of watching CinemaTherapy, the phrase "Staying means nothing if you don't have the option to leave." Has entered my consciousness and I have said it to several people in bad situations.
YES. This -- exactly this -- is what bothered me growing up in evangelical circles. Divorce was touted as some horrible evil, like you ruined your life/family/etc. When in reality, the possibility of divorce--the fact that it's always an option for partners... it gives the commitment meaning. Forbidding it and putting social pressures on staying takes away from the depth of the couple's bond and choice to stay.
AND YOU'RE ALWAYS FREE TO BEGIN AGAIN AND YOU'RE ALWAYS FREE TO BELIEVE~~~~ WHEN YOU FIND THE PLACE WHERE YOUR HEART BELONGS YOU'LL NE~~~~ VER LEAVE~~~ Did someone get the reference?
This just reminds me of the time I was talking about the musical with a woman who began ranting about how cold and cruel Christine was in rejecting Phantom. I looked at her and said, "But he KILLED PEOPLE." She paused in her rant, tilted her head thoughtfully, and then very softly said, "Oh yeh. There's that."
But Christine was certainly cold and cruel. Christine didn't deserve his love! Who with a kind and compassionate heart, would walk up and take a prosthesis off someone's face without asking first? Then run to another guy and tell him how horrid that face was! Hmm... She betrayed him every time! Honestly, I hate traitors. I don't like how she humiliated him in front of the whole audience. She took off his mask for the second time and really knew how he would react to this. And what happened, he got angry again. Yes, he killed people, but he did it because he experienced violence and cruelty as a child. Society's behavior and isolation made him that way, but he wasn't really evil. Soldiers also kill people, but no one condemns them.... I even think the Phantom was a romantic soul. Also, he was very gentlemanly considering he had no social skills! So I bet most people would have done the same thing if they were in his place....Maybe even worse.... As for the viscount, who wouldn't choose the perfect prince? It was quite predictable that they would be a couple. She clearly wanted to become a countess, because she chose money over genius. I think Christine is a typical gold digger like most females. 😆 The same fate befell Heathcliff. (Wuthering Heights ) The Phantom and Heathcliff are a lot alike as well as the romances they had with their loves, both girls chose rich men. And the Phantom isn't a psychopath! He's just madly in love... People do crazy things, when they're in love. In fact, if he was really obsessed he wouldn't have let her and Raoul go.
@@CazuhLynn When one is put on display as a sideshow freak and sexually abused by their jailer... it hardly promotes a healthy view of humanity. Sorry.
I watched this when I was younger, and I remember thinking and asking my mom "wait, why's she kissing him?" When Christine kissed the phantom. I was a confused little child. I think my mom explained it as an apology. I think her word were "she's saying I love your music, but not you." Doesn't really hit the nail on the head, but it made sense to like, six year old me.
So, uh... funny story: you know how kids sometimes have that one movie they watch over and over a thousand times? This was that movie for me Picking up plot as a small autistic child is hard, especially when there's enough visual detail to process for literal days and the nature of singing means I'm going to mishear key parts of dialogue. The intricacies of picking up on multiple aspects of body language and stringing them together into a single coherent impression is still mostly beyond me now, so as a younger version of myself I was even more clueless. ... and I didn't realize that the phantom wasn't canonically a literal angel until I was a teenager. I also picked up on zero of the creep factor until around then and didn't realize how big the age gap was until I saw this video about a decade after all my other realizations occurred. I also didn't quite get why she wanted to be with Raoul as a kid when the phantom seemed to be a much more interesting person to me Basically what I'm trying to say is that I took in all the information this film puts out backwards and now I'm an adult who unironically reads Kylo Ren fanfiction 🤣
@@madeliner1682 Actually, it makes perfect sense. Most kids are not supposed to pick up on the "adult" jokes in Disneyfilms. So, well done, you were watching the way people your age watch movies (at that time anyway.) And, yes, this film is inconsistent and confusing. Motivations are quite muddled all around. (And I agree, even though the phantom is not a very nice guy, he is definitely the most interesting one around!) Also... I think you may be one of the "real" watchers. Acting is fun, but also still fake. (Like some people will forever see through the illusions of a magician, because they will not let themselves be distracted, so the sleight of hands *does* get noticed. People with Downs syndrome are famous/feared for it!) I (autistic) absolutely dislike romantic movies, because well.. they are (obviously) faking it! (There are a few "good ones" out there, and suprisingly...they are the ones in which the characters&actors actually fancied each other romantically at that time! Or really liked each other as people and got along great as well as "playing the part of...") Bodylanguage itself is hard enough without people telling you "yes, you see one thing, but your are supposed to ignore that and believe something else entirely". That is why films etc. usually are not helping anyone actually learning to read bodylanguage and its meanings. (If anything they teach you to fall for the fakers?) Sorry, I do not know this Kylo Ren. But if it makes you happy...go for it! Maybe write some of your own as well? (Your comment had a nice flow to it, so you probably have a talent?)
@@muurrarium9460 interesting point. I guess part of why I usually don't have an emotional read on almost any movies is because my parents would tell me verbally how I was supposed to feel about it and they were never right, so now I just kinda get this gray wash of "eh, how the fuck am *I* supposed to know?" Which is another factor in why I like Kylo Ren so much, because The Last Jedi was the movie that finally got the message across to me that people do things for reasons. That realization also happened at an embarrassingly late age, and in my defense the way people behave can still seem a little nonsensical even now, but it helped a lot and its effect on my world view still has aftershocks today
Out of the multiple versions i've seen of this musical, one had the Phantom physically pause and react to Raoul's line "Why make her lie to you to save me?" and I thought that was such an amazing touch to see him start to realize he's in the wrong at that point and it eases him into the change of heart at the end. I loved it
In the 25th Anniversary version the camera makes a point to capture Ramin's Phantom's reaction, plus the reaction to "the tears I might have shed for your dark fate/grow cold and turn to tears of hate" of sheer heartbreak and realisation
@@zarayoung3781 Ramin’s performance kills me so much in that. Like there’s only so much he can do with his face because of the makeup, but his hands are doing EVERYTHING the ENTIRE TIME and I love it SO. MUCH!
Fun fact: In the Novel The Phantom of the Opera, Erik is described as corpse-like and is referred to as having a "death's-head" (human skull) throughout the story. He has no nose, and his eyes are sunken so deep in his skull that all that is seen are two eye sockets, except when his yellow eyes glow in the dark. His skin is yellowed and tightly stretched across his bones, and only a few wisps of dark brown hair are behind his ears and on his forehead. His mouth is never described in as much detail, but is referred to as a “dead mouth” by Christine, and Erik acknowledges that his mouth is abnormal when lifting up his mask to display ventriloquism. He is described as extremely thin, so much so that he resembles a skeleton. Christine graphically describes his cold, bony hands, which also either feel or smell like death. There is debate among both English and French speakers as to whether the original French word used here, sentir, was intended by Leroux to mean "smells like" or "feels like,” as the French word is used for both feel and smell depending on the context. Erik woefully describes himself to Christine as a corpse who is "built up with death from head to foot." According to the Persian, Erik was born with this deformity and was exhibited as le mort vivant in freak shows earlier in his life. Erik sometimes plays up his macabre appearance, such as sleeping in a coffin as if he is a vampire, he also costumes as the titular character from Edgar Allan Poe's The Masque of the Red Death for the masked ball.[citation needed] Lon Chaney's characterization of Erik in the silent film The Phantom of the Opera (1925) remains closest to the book in content, in that Erik's face resembles a skull with an elongated nose slit and protruding, crooked teeth. In this version, Erik is said to have been deformed at birth.
If you haven't read the phantom by Susan Kay. You're missing out on amazing look into his character. His look is held true to the original story. The book just expanded on his whole life.
One of the biggest points that wasn't pointed out but that was really notable for me was how Raoul gaslit Christine for so long telling her the phantom didn't exist when she KNEW he was real, and then used her as bait to catch him during the musical later even though she's scared and doesn't want to do it. Phantom is toxic, but don't put Raoul on a pedestal either😂
The Phantom is believed to be a legend in the opera house. Not a lot of people believe he exists, including Raoul. It's until he appears at the masquerade that Raoul soon believes Christine since there's now proof that the Phantom exists and is a real person. And then Raoul uses Christine as bait to capture him. Although Christine was scared, he tries his best to soothe her worries. And he was using her as bait for the sake of other people not getting hurt and killed.
Loving all the discourse here and I have an interesting fact to put into it. I saw Phantom on tour a few years ago and it was the restaged version, and in this version Christine actually physically slapped Raoul when he wanted her to be bait in Don Juan! There certainly were some interesting parts in that production that have changed some of my views on the show as a whole.
I think it’s important to note that for most of the story the Phantom loves Christine’s VOICE and not her person. At least at first. When she kisses him at the end, THAT is when his love turns to actually loving HER. Not lustfully but because of the expression of care. And that’s why he’s able to let her go finally at the end. It’s also why he says “It’s over now, the music of the night.” That is a deeper abandonment of his previously held ideals than people realize.
In the book, Erik isn't interested in sex at all, his view of a wife is someone who he can dress pretty and take to walks with. It's basically a child's view of what marriage is like before he learns about sexuality and procreation as he grows up.
This reminds me of one post I saw where someone redrew a scene from The Swan Princess movie with Christine saying “Is my voice all that matters to you?” and The Phantom replies “What else is there?”
"I gave you my music and this is how you repay me" is exactly the 'entitled nice guy' trope. He was nice to her (by giving her music, of his own volition) and therefore she owes him a relationship.
Playing devil's advocate, his music is him. Him saying this is the equivalent of a woman saying "I gave you my soul and you turn around and cheat on me." Totally not saying he's in the right.
@@daniellerapozo5777 you're pretty much on the money. Not that it isn't a toxic trait, but he's saying he feels cheated on, that he's committed himself to her and is hurt by her not doing the same... that is very different from someone saying "i bought you a dinner, take off your clothes"
@@daniellerapozo5777 No it's not, it's not the same thing at all, because she was not in a relationship with the Phantom, he just really wanted her to be. I guess it's the equivalent of a woman stalking a man since his childhood and devoting all her time and energy to him and then screaming that he's "cheating on her" when he finds an age-appropriate girlfriend.
@@NoESanity You're literally describing a Nice Guy, though. A Nice Guy "commits" himself to a girl who only wants to be friends with him, and when she gets a boyfriend she's actually attracted to, the Nice Guy flips out and screams that "I was your shoulder to cry on! I spent so much time and effort on you! And now you friendzone me?!" You guys are so desperately trying to make the Phantom seem morally superior, but now he looks even more like a Nice Guy.
Oh give it up. He was abused, enslaved, made to kill people in Persia to not be murderd himself… at what point exactly between that and his mother abandoning him gave him a chance to learn about healthy relationships? Oh, right. None.
I always interpreted the ending a little differently: when Christine chose to stay with the Phantom to save Raoul, Erik saw in her eyes how much she truly loved Raoul. Whether or not he was going to break the trust and to kill Raoul anyway, he realized doing so would only hurt Christine and make her miserable. I think it was that moment for the first time in his life, Erik felt compassion for someone else. Because he once lived miserably, and experienced cruelty against him. Coercing Christine to stay here with him would be repeating what happened to him as a child. And I think that's what finally made Erik break, and he let her go. I wouldn't call it a redemption arc by any means (he did commit murder after all) but it's the closure he needed all these years. I also loved the contrast between Erik's lair and the rooftop where he watched Christine and Raoul make out. The Phantom's hideout is dark, murky, and cluttered, and it feels almost claustrophobic and hard to breathe in especially with the Phantom's menacing aura. The rooftop, despite the cold and snow, has open air and space allowing Christine to breathe and be vulnerable. I don't think Erik realized it then, but I think after the kiss was when he also realized that Christine needed to be free to be alive, something he never had. Because even with the help of Madame Giry, all he was able to do was move from one cage and live in another.
The problem is, that she just didn't love the phantom. He still escaped from the theater and started a new life. If she loves him, they could run away together and live somewhere in the village. And it wouldn't be a cage, which means they could both be free.....
The part that really starts to break the phantom comes right before Raúl arrives when Christine sings “This haunted face holds no horror for me now ... It's in your *soul* that the true distortion lies ...” And Emmy Rossum’s delivery still gives me chills
I loved this movie when I was like 14. I really wanted Phantom to be with Christine, but I left it for a few years and re-watched it recently and all I could see was how afraid Christine must have been. It's amazing the difference some growth can make.
To me, the Phantom is not really loving Christine as a person, but a piece of his own lifeless artwork. He wants her to be with him, to be on the stage, and in return to love him, but he often ignores or manipulates Christine's feelings and thoughts. His controlling behaviors (which is stronger on the stage than in the movie) are a true threat. Yet, from the lyrics, we see a deeply traumatized child who just wants to be treated with kindness, who has perhaps been rejected so often that he learned to get what he wants by threatening people. It's sad, but unless the Phantom is willing to change, just like the Beast is willing to change for Belle, Christine will not be happy if she chooses the Phantom.
@@HingYok Why wouldn't she be happy with him? He was kind to her. And he loved her so much!!!! If he hadn't shown her his beloved doll (her in the wedding dress), I do think she'd have slept with him (after the music of the night). 😂😂 Well, Dude is lonely since his birth. I don't think he really knows how to handle with girls (why did she faint? She was so weak 😆)....After the song she had to kiss him... Poor Phantom, a rookie mistake ruined it for him.. ...
@@ingridmay66 Because the Phantom has this "do-as-I tell-you-or-else" thing to everyone, even to Christine in the stage version ("You will sing for me!" instead of "you belong to me!" in the masquerade). He might seem nice to her, but it's not like he cares if she's happy. Not a scene in the stage or the movie version has shown that he cares about Christine's feeling. Maybe Christine's kiss has changed him at the end, but it's too late.
I never really liked Raoul OR Phantom, but I was able to understand the Phantom's inability to let go of his pedestal vision of Christine. Understand but not approve of, of course. Honestly, the more I grow up, the more I sympathize with the stage hands and the theater owners than any of the main characters, lol!
With the final point of "he'd cling to her like a life preserver", it was like that in the book! Erik kept Christine with him for over a month. I forget how long exactly. That was how long it took him to realize she was wilting in his company and the freedom to choose was what was necessary to make her happy.
Yeah, and then later on in the book he still eventually kidnaps her a second time and Raoul and the Persian get stuck in a torture chamber which is mostly focused on mental torture (tree in the middle surrounded with six mirrors that will drive you insane). And then the choice is even way more scary, because in the theater/movie the Phantom says that Christine has to choose between him and Raoul, and if she chooses Raoul Raoul will die. In the book he has a whole bunch of explosives. If she doesn't choose Erik (the Phantom) basically EVERYONE will die and that includes hundreds of people who in that moment are visiting a play at the opera house. Reading the book just makes me laugh at how mild and sweet the Phantom is in the movie/theater. I recently read the book. Book's Phantom is much much more scary.
@@janeenschultz8502 I think this might depend on translation, because I've read a couple different translations of this book, and in none of them does he actually keep her for any length of time after the grasshopper/scorpion choice. He pulls the viscount and the Daroga from the torture chamber. Sets them out to dry as it were, and then lets them all leave. He asks her to return to him and bury his body when the newspaper prints that Erik is Dead. The only time she is kept below for any length of time in the two versions I've read is when he takes her below after she performs the first time in Carlotta's place. Book Erik is terrifying I agree. Stage Erik can be too depending on who is playing him. I've seen the stage show a number of different times, and it is always amazing to me how differently the same words/songs hit depending on who is playing the role.
@@briarbramblerose So, I just checked my version of the book and it doesn't say how long she was with him that last time. The Persian was gone and Raoul was chained up. Christine cried over and with Erik, her in pity and him in happiness. Then he let her and Raoul go.
@@janeenschultz8502 book Erik is absolutely terrifying. I've loved the stage show since I first saw it at 14, but I didn't read the book until I was 19 or 20. It really changed my perspective on the show. While I still love it, it lost a lot of the tortured romance vibe appeal it had for me as a kid. As it should have growing up anyway, since he's a deranged killer, not a tortured soul longing for beauty.
As a childhood I couldn’t understand why she chose Raul. As an adult I understand. Raul asks to share love with him, show it to everyone, take her with him everywhere. Phantom just wants her to himself. And at the end, by releasing her, he does show real love. UGH god I love this movie so much.
In the book Raoul act like a spoiled brat & is very mean towards Christine I don't like him for Christine & after "Love Never Dies" I don't like Christine with Erik either.
As an adult, I don’t get how she chose either. Like specifically We Have All Been Blind kills me with their relationship. Erik did actually want to show her off and shower her constantly with everything that made her happy. What you have to remember is that he was raised as a side show attraction and treated like absolute trash and this was in a time before self help and therapy and everything. She presents the idea of Angel of Music and he only becomes exceptionally controlling after she removed his mask and he then had to worry she would fear his appearance - what had made him the subject of rejection and abuse his entire life. Kidnapping and murder aren’t okay, but if Christine had gotten any amount of actual education and therapy had been a thing it honestly could’ve been pretty okay
@@Anne-ny3bz Did I mention he was creeping on Christine too & kept getting pissy because she was not like who he envisioned she should be when they were kids all lovey dovey when the Christine he sees before him is nothing like that? As much as I dislike Raoul they really did him wrong in the sequel musical "Love Never Dies" they paint him as a drunk & gambler they could give him his dignity & kill him off instead leaving Christine alone with a child that was never his & he never found out the truth. My idea is Christine is left with his debts & she has to keep performing to pay them off I soured on Erik because he spent 10 years never getting over Christine & treats those like Madame Giry & her daughter Meg like crap.
What's wild is that Emmy Rossum has said that she looks back on her performance and singing in this movie and is basically disappointed with herself and thinks she could have done so much better 🤯 what?! This was the first play I ever saw on stage and it was incredible. So this movie definitely has a special place in my heart.
I remember watching and reading about some of her press about it when she talked about it layer in life. She says her voice was juvenile (she was 18 during filming) and she wishes that she had done better and had a more mature and refined voice. But overall, absolutely adore her role in this movie. Wouldn't change it for anything.
She didn't do badly but was very young with an underdeveloped voice for Christine. If she'd done it in her 20s she probably would have been great. They had a similar problem with Butler, he's talented but lacked the training.
Even though I grew up with this movie, I hadn't made the connection that this is basically be a perfect mirror of my abusive ex, complete with the nearly twice my age, grooming, possessiveness, and controlling behavior. I'm still learning to give myself grace for not seeing the signs, but sometimes the Phantoms out there play the part of Raoul quite convincingly. I'm really grateful that CT made a video on this dynamic. Love isn't supposed to hurt or feel scary. Know that you aren't alone, and that you're far more resilient than you may realize. It's possible to build a peaceful and joyous life and surround yourself with people who want to celebrate your happiness and lift you up. It's never, ever too late to take your life back.
Yeah ik that feeling AND know how it is...without the part of being twice my age. i'm still learning to forgive myself as well, so we're all in this together! (:
My cousin and her groom sang "All I Ask of You" to each other at their wedding. I would have been very cringe if they couldn't pull it off, but they sang it perfectly. I couldn't believe their vocals. It was such a romantic and beautiful moment.
My mom's name is Christine. She said her and dad were gonna do all i ask of you at least for a dance in their wedding vow renewal, if they do it. Also mom was a huge Gerard Butler fan she'd start giggling and going "GERARD BUTLER SAID MY NAME."
I've fantasized doing that for my theoretical wedding reception while doing a slow waltz...... and I want essentially the Met Gala for my wedding....everything's planned... now I need to find myself a wonderful man who can sing and is cool with my crazy wedding plans lol
This is the movie I have always been obsessed since a child. And as a child I was mad at Christine for not choosing the Phantom. For me what he did (grooming and controlling her) wasn't clicking, nor were the words of the songs. I remember it was around high school, when I was doing one of my annual rewatch of the movie that everything started to click. It clicked that the Phantom preyed on a vulnerable, grieving child, that what he felt wasn't love. It also clicked that the song "Point of no Return" was of technically lust and s*x
I think he helped the girl get over the loss of her father. She was an orphan and he was an outcast, this brought them closer.... He taught her to sing.... And everything was fine until the viscount appeared. The phantom loved her very much and made it clear in the end. Unfortunately, Christine didn't love him at all... And, probably, she was very disappointed to find out that her "angel of music" is just a deformed, sad, lonely person.
@@priestessmikokikyo77 Raoul was an idiot! If Raoul truly loved her, he wouldn't have used her as bait to try and kill the Phantom.I prefer the Phantom and he was so devoted to her. But I don't feel her love for him... She doesn't even try to comfort him or hug him when he cries…. She just stares at him and thinks what will happen now... Her indifference and coldness irritate me. The Phantom looked at her when she returned and there was hope she would stay with him. Only to end up that she gives him the ring. The ring that was supposed to, from the phantom's point of view, symbolize their love. I would call that the final insult rather than love or compassion.
@@ingridmay66 I still love Erik and Christine together. he deeply loved her yes christine "used" erik to get whatever she wanted. She abandoned him and that is just unspeakable. Raoul i cant stand him in any version of Phantom
@@priestessmikokikyo77 The viscount is the perfect prince with the perfect life. And he can get any girl. But the phantom's life was so sad and hard... He suffered at the hands of a freak show whilst Raoul lived in a mansion with everything. I would like to see Raoul in the phantom's place. I bet he wouldn't be so kind... He probably would have done the same as the Phantom. In this version, the phantom could find another love, better than Christine, and be happy at last..... It's a pity they didn't show what happened to him after the final lair.
I also think not enough people remember that the Phantom of the Opera from the original book was a Universal horror movie monster for a reason. This is a horror story. Part of Christine's terror is knowing that if and when he comes for her, she'll go, whether she really wants to or not. This is not a YA romantic triangle where both options are appealing, she wants to be with Raoul but knows from experience that she can't escape. "Can I betray the man who once inspired my voice? Will I become his prey? Do I have any choice?" And playing that up is *So much more fun*
I think that’s a totally valid point, and a lot of people do forget that, but I also don’t want anyone to not know that the book is still very much ultimately about the the phantom learning the meaning of love/compassion. The phantom may be more of a monster in the book, but the complexity is still there. The madame Giry equivalent character in the book narrates the final chapters and asks the reader whether we should feel compassion for him, concluding that yes, we should, ending the book with something along the lines of, “Here was a man with a mind and heart that could have held the world, yet he had to content himself with a cellar, just because the he was ugly” (paraphrasing from memory).
Ngl, Emmy Rossum’s delivery of “I gave you my mind blindly” made me want to be a theatre major… Christine is often seen (by the other characters) as a soft spoken, wisp of a waif, but in that moment she is so strong. The “sing argument” Jonathan mentions, she’s strongly arguing with him or trying to persuade him not to harm Raoul, but just saying this line she shows her inner strength-the orphaned girl who put her trust in someone who genuinely betrayed her trust. And this is another Joel Schumacher direction because he said that the entire musical is sung, so being selective with a handful of lines that are not sung make them stand out and mean more.
You think you loved how Christine was in that one scene, your mind will be blown away by her inner strength in the absolutely amazing novel, "Phantom" by Susan Kay. I HIGHLY recommend this novel if you sincerely love this story and these characters.
It's so powerful, and I think one of Christine's most compelling character elements is how deeply she grieves. That alone should turn anyone against the idea of her being with the Phantom. He pretended to be the spirit of the person she loved most in the world, for YEARS. Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again is one of those musical theater songs that will bring me to tears every time.
Say what you will about Gerard Butler’s singing, but when he softly hits that first high note in Music of the Night, and his voice melts into the french horns behind him, that was magical. One of my favorite music moments in film. However, it’s pretty clear that-between acting and singing-Joel wanted to prioritize the former.
@@MsGlamLamb I think that's probably why people wanted Christine to choose Erik because of Gerard Butler's portrayal of him was so great. I get it if they were, Gerard's performance is mesmerizing. Obviously bad relationship, but Gerard was outstanding in this film.
@@summerrose8110 very true! And the character is very alluring. When it was written (as a romantic character, not the original, from the book), we didn't talk about abusive behavior all that much. Now a days it's a different story.
The relationships in the book are even more problematic. Also now you've said it Hugh Jackman as the Phantom is something strikes me as a real missed opportunity I wish I could see.
@@welbeckmanor Have you read the book? In the book the Phantom is much more psychotic. He forces Christine to choose between him and the entire opera house. At that same time, he puts Raoul in a torture chamber. In the book, Raoul does believe in her more quickly and there’s a little less gaslighting, but there’s a lot of jealousy between him and the Phantom.
A thing I love is how in "Point of no return", Christine reveals the Phantom to the audience (tbf, in the stage show that is, where the Phantom wears a cloak and a hood, pretending more convincingly to be Piangi - even Christine only realizes who she is singing a duett with halfway through the song), but not until he uses Raoul's words of love towards her does she go as far as to tear off his mask too. I like to read that as a moment of Christine actually (FINALLY) getting mad at the Phantom for once, seeing his attempts of manipulation for what they are. After all he's done to her, manipulating her, stalking her, threatening her and her loved ones and going as far as murdering people when he doesn't get his way... he now also has the absolute GALL to use Raoul's words as his own, proving not only that he was there, stalking them, when Raoul first said them, but also that he seems to believe that it is mearly sweet words that won Christine over to Raoul and not Raoul showing genuine love to her. The Phantom, so used to manipulating people (including Christine) to get what he wants, can't even seem to imagine Christine to truly be in love with Raoul but mearly being "more successfully" manipulated by him and that using the same words might win her back. Yet by pulling off the mask, Christine proves to him in no uncertain terms that she sees through that this time. And that she won't take it anymore.
Yeah in the 24th anniversary version they make it much clearer I think that Christine realizes the Phantom was there when Raul and her were plannung to run away and realized he was again stalking her, so that's why she disavows him like that.
After pulling his mask off, she immediately apologizes with her eyes, which the moment of, "why?", from Phantom(Erik), makes a little more heart wrenching. Christine, then at the end, sings the song with Raoul and looks back at Phantom. I hated that moment. I get that Erik was manipulating, but he did love Christine in the end.
@@kaylynnbuente4535 He loved her all his life but manipulated her because he didn't know any other way to get close to her. His situation was terrible and sad.
Not sure if you've done it, but I would love to see you discuss Westly and Buttercups relationship from the princess bride! There are definitely things they get right, but also some things that they would have to work through (not having any contact for 5 years and him being a pirate for that length of time, he would have changed a lot)
Tbf, most ppl dont rly watch Princess Bride for the main romance, it's just kinda the impetus that motivates the main plot to move forward. We watch PB for the adventure, the memes, and the great character acting. The bro bond Westley and Inigo form while trying to kill one another, Wallace Shaun being magnificent going "Inconceivable!", and of course "My name is Inigo Montoya...etc" The main romance is just kinda... there. Like its not too bad, not too great, you're kind of supposed to just accept that it's "True Love" and roll with it in order to get to the fun stuff.
Not only that but the incredible lengths to which Westley is willing to go on Buttercup's behalf -- battle a giant and a master swordsman, climb a tall cliff, dive into lightning sand, fight a giant rodent, endure torture, and even come back from the dead! Yes, she does make one or two sacrifices for him as well (such as when she agrees to go back to Humperdinck as long as he lets Westley go)...but really, he does far more for her than she ever does for him.
I was a teenager when this came out and I remember my mom using it to explain real love vs possessive love and 13 year old me didn't understand fully but now I do and I carried that lesson through my dating life.
Oh boy, complete 180 but this Phantom always reminds me of a math teacher I had that said she thought Gerard Butler looked handsome in the movie. It’s hard for me not to remember her while watching it because she had a stroke and couldn’t teach anymore.
My dad when this came out used it as “be nice to people because being ugly doesn’t mean be evil but if someone treats you like this, we’re getting rid of that real quick” but also “don’t date anybody because they all suck”
In the book (written by Gaston Laroux) we get to know more about his childhood trauma, how even his mother hated him. We also get to know that he was a murderer long before the opera, the chapters about his time in Iran is really disturbing.
Never thought I'd see Phantom of the Opera on your channel! So excited to watch this! I was OBSESSED with Phantom when I was younger (not just this movie, but every version I could get my hands on) and even wrote an entire screenplay of my own based on the book when I was 10. 🤣
When I was 19 me and my big sister took a trip to Toronto. We were able to get stand-by tickets for the show. The next day we got to tour the Theatre. The whole thing was a highlight. - Cathy (&, accidently, Steve), Ottawa/Bytown/Pimisi
Watching the Phantom break down in the movie when he sends Christine and Raoul away is heartbreaking enough, but then you realise that he's convinced that he'll be alone forever because of his facial deformity. Christine made him feel less alone.
I mean, yes, but also to Christine it was never about his face, it was his behaviour. Which interestingly, a lot of incels gripe about, they say they're too ugly to find a date or partner, but the problem is not their looks, it's their toxic views and behaviour that turns people away.
Yep. It definitely was super unhealthy for him to try to get her to love him, but at the same time I still feel really sorry for him since he's clearly got no safe, loving relationships in his life and people always react to him in either fear or disgust and rage. Christine was a safe harbor because she actually treated him with kindness, no wonder he latched on so hard to the idea of loving her and being together forever. It probably felt like getting real food after years of crumbs. Obviously that isn't an excuse to try forcing her hand in marriage and scaring the crap out of her with the crazy behavior either, but I can see why he thought it might work if the opera house let him get away with so much and he was never taught healthy relationship behavior b/c he had literally no safe model to base his love off of. Really, Christine deserves a healthy loving relationship, Raoul deserves to be served a restraining order and therapy, and Erik deserves to be served a restraining order and therapy AND serious medical care so he has a chance of one day getting his life sorted out and his views healthy enough to actually make a positive, normal relationship with anyone who ISN'T his safe spots like Madame Giry or Christine. But it's a film and a book so what can you do 🤷
Ohooo, this is where the fun begins! All I can say is as a teenager I was fascinated by the dynamic between Christine and The Phantom. Now, as an adult, I understand why she chose Raul. And, of course, as every girl with a decent vocal range I dreamt of playing Christine since I first discovered this movie 😂
I left a similar comment; younger me was obsessed with the mystery of Phantom. Now as an adult I get how Raul was the healthy relationship and she chose correctly
I totally disagree on Raoul. He bullied her into the Don Juan performance and we never see him treat her as truly equal to him. His progression in Love Never Dies didn't surprise me at all. I think the healthiest thing would have been for her to escape them both
This is why Ramin Karimloo will forever be the most amazing Phantom to ever grace the screen or stage. Man has the range needed to play The Phantom and you feel like you're ascending when he hits the money notes
For screeen - absolutely, Ramin is the best, along with his Christine Sierra. For stage in general it should be more good quality records to compare. I heard many good things about other Phantoms, starting with Colm Wilkinson, Ramin's favourite. (I'm not talking about Michael Crawford because wasn't impressed by videos with him on youtube at all, not by voice, not by acting).
And the emotion he puts into every song and scene is so moving. You feel his pain and sorrow. You’re scared when he becomes enraged. You feel sympathy when he’s pouring his soul out to Christine. He’s one of my favorite phantoms.
Like truly, you need a phantom who can give a raw human performance but at the same time he’s the angel of music who taught a child how to sing opera. He’s gotta have unreal pipes. Ramin is that phantom.
When Jonathon mentioned seeing the show in Sydney and the Phantom singing “music of the night” and “I thought I think I just got impregnated” I FELT that. When I saw Phantom live, during “music of the night” and “past the point” I thought the same thing 😂
That was me watching Peter Jöback in NYC as the Phantom in 2013. He's a Swedish pop star but hearing him do a Broadway musical live was such a treat. He was amazing.
The Phantom would be a really good subject for Villain Therapy. He obviously needs it, and it’d be interesting to see what Jonathan has to say about him as a patient.
My favorite (character) reading of the Phantom is by Lindsay Ellis, in that POTO is not a story of star-crossed lovers separated by society but a coming-of-age story of a child stuck in a 50-year-old man's body and letting Christine go was him "growing up". Since then, I can no longer see Phantom's interactions with Christine as that of a courting lover, but that of a child trying to impress his mother (kiss notwithstanding). The Phantom wants romantic love but he really needs familial love.
It's worth mentioning that in the book, part of the reason Erik was moved by the kiss was because his own mother never kissed him. Christine showed him the love and care that a mother should have had for her child.
Yeah, I think that part of him just wanted someone who would take care of him and show him the care he never received, as if he were a broken child. He was so nice at the end....
When Gerald was informed about that movie, he was sincere to the director and to Andrew Lloyd Webber about his singing abilities. He said 'I sang in a rock band, now that is a opera.. seriously am i really gonna do this?'. His rehearsal was Music of the Night and the point is that they loved him. They said that it is not gonna be easy we are going to do lots of work and exercise but you got this. So to see a actor with not so great singing experience and having the ability to make some steps further the Phantom's character and his singing abilities, for me it is just wow. And i am gonna be honest. The Phantom of the Opera is musical we can enjoy the great opera singers in musical theaters and see their singing talent. Gerald in this movie shows us with his well (after months )working voice the Phantom's emotional rollercoaster in every song. He played so damn well, he knew without hesitation that it may not go well with the singing but he tried so hard and the result was amazing. For me it is double the success because as a viewer i understand now his acting limits. From Phantom to 300 just wow, i do not know so many known well actors who choose to play in musicals. It is a risk.☺️ Thank you for analyzing this movie you were so great!!
She was cast when she was 16. If they weren’t on a film set, those two men would have been arrested for sexual assault of a minor for how they had to touch her. I’m truly disgusted that everyone involved was fine going along with this.
@@Author.Noelle.Alexandria I mean, in most of europe the age of consent is 16. Not saying that it's weird, or even disgusting at times if the age difference is as big as it was here, but technically it's not illegal. So, by european standards, she is not considered a minor. Just saying
I love Butler in this film, but Alan nails the problem with him as the Phantom. I will say, though, that 'Past the Point of No Return', especially the crescendo on the bridge, brings chills to my spine. He has this kind of raw, honest tone that's often missing from professional singers that really shines in that song.
I used to love the original novel so much. Erik is a fascinating character. When his past is revealed, and that you learn that he became what he is because it was his only way of survival. The queen he served made him kill for her enjoyement. The king tried to have him murdered so he couldn't tell the secrets of the palace he build for them... The society always treated him like a monster so he ended up thinking he was one... Until Christine appeared in his life and he started thinking he could have his "happy ever after", since she was not seeing him as a monster but a heavenly creature. The moral of the book was interesting: "Erik behave like a monster, but if the world treated him slightly better, maybe he would have turned better". If only there were more people who could see the good in him.
@Eliane R. Erik is very similar to Quasimodo. He was also abused and treated like a monster because of how he looked not just by society, but by Frollo. Until Esmeralda treated him with kindness and mercy and he felt for the first time like a human. At first he wanted a relationship with Esmeralda, but she doesn't owe him that also Quasimodo would've been an obsessed sociopath like Frollo if he went too far with her. I like them as friends way more, besides Phoebus treats Esmeralda like a human, like she is. Of course Quasimodo didn't kill anyone, so he's more likeable. And I love Adam from Beauty and the Beast because he actually DID make an effort to change his attitude towards Belle and showed her that he does have a heart. I get angry when people dismiss the film as "Stockholm syndrome" and ignore Adam's shift in demeanor.
@@summerrose8110 Totally. And IIRC Belle did a good job too holding him accountable and calling him out whenever he was acting out of line. She didn't let him get away with his behavior.
could you do the 25th anniversary as well? it’s not technically a movie, but sierra boggess’s christine is SO different and i think it makes the story feel very different. it could be a really cool discussion.
Yes! The movie is what got me into POTO but when I watched Ramin and Sierra and realized what the vocals should be like I was in love with this musical for the longest time.
I mostly liked the movie, but I only became obsessed with POTO once I watched the 25th anniversary version. The movie Christine did a good job, but I only started to love Christine’s character, when I watched Sierra Boggess’ incredible performance. She and Ramin Karimloo (and Hadley Fraser) made me listen to the album on repeat for days, while I didn’t even bother to listen to the movie ost 😅
Oh my goodness and Carlotta in that one! I love every single moment of it, her going all gooey over that ballet singer (role reversal, anybody?) and her whole Primadonna act, and goodness me, the costumes. She's the perfect Carlotta as far as I'm concerned. And Raoul in that one is splendid, too. I like the 25th anniversary version better than the movie, I'm afraid. I guess that musical just belongs on stage.
Speaking of "Aslan!" I think a video on "The Chronicles of Narnia, the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe", would be awesome! Particularly analyzing the relationship between Peter and Edmund, or on the theme of forgiveness and redemption.
I always thought that the lyrics in Phantom clearly portray Raul as the good love interest and Phantom as the bad love interest because of its references of the words "light" and "dark". Phantom's lyrics tell Christine to "turn your face away from the garish light of day. Turn your thoughts away from cold, unfeeling light and listen to the music of the night." and to "open up your mind. Let your fantasies unwind in the darkness that you know you cannot fight." He is the embodiment of darkness and just as he's trying to lure Christine into the darkness, he is trying to lure her into loving him, but that isn't what Christine wants. Christine sings that, "All I want is freedom. A world with no more night." She later sings, "turn my head with talk of summertime." This further mentions her desire to be where she can bask in the light. Meanwhile, Raul sings of light. He sings, "no more talk of darkness... I'm here. Nothing can harm you... Let me be your freedom. Let daylight dry your tears... Let me be your shelter. Let me be your light." In the lyrics of the songs, it shows that Raul is the better love interest because he understands her and wants to give Christine what she wants, not what he wants to force on her. He is the embodiment of the light.
Honestly I love Gerard as the phantom. His voice carries so much weight and intensity. Sure he wasn't a trained singer, but that makes it all the more impressive to me. It's so rough and edgy and carries the heaviness of his soul.
Yeah, I was also impressed by his talent and dedication to the role.. I love his rough and dangerous voice, because he sounds like a tormented man.👌 And his acting made me cry. 😊Unpopular opinion, although the singers have beautiful voices, but I don’t feel passion in a theatrical production.....
Yup, I was eating spaghetti when they started in on Butler's lack of range. My noodles fell with what Alan was saying. Butler is the reason why I watched this movie in the first place. I wasn't a POTO fan, I'm not a fan of Opera by any means and this style of film bores me immensely. But for me, Gerard Butler not only made it enjoyable but also made me love the film. I mean Emmy Rossum was great and has an absolutely beautiful voice, but she didn't make me like the movie. 😁
@@thepinkestpigglet7529 Sir, who pissed in your Wheaties this morning? Who hurt you? Who wronged you so egregiously that it elicited a response like that from you? Do better. I'm sure Jono and Allan would be tickled pink to know one of their followers acts like that in their comment section.
I agree - i loved the power yet simultaneous vulnerability in his voice. There was a sort of frustration that carried and fit the character perfectly. And ive had chorus teachers that weren’t amazing singers themselves - you don’t have to be to teach someone imo. He is a musical genius in his compositions and operas is how i took it. I know plenty of talented musicians who can’t sing for shit. And @The Pinkest Piglet - its a play about operas, im sure thats what she meant
Also - I dig this story because the Phantom's motives (not his actions) are highly sympathetic. His motives come from wanting to be loved despite his looks, which is pretty universal. Losing someone you're enamored with to someone else (whether they're better for the person or not) can also be pretty relatable. But I think the Phantom only experiences real love a couple of times here - he falls in love with her when she gives him back his mask, and his first real act of love is when he lets her go at the end.
I love that you point out the age difference in the actors and actress. In the original book, Christine is also very young, but Erik, the phantom, is even older. He’s old enough to be her grandfather and Raul is much closer in age. Readers also get to see Christine and Raul’s love develop as they explore the opera house.
I remember having only seen the movie and seeing the stage version, there is one little line change that makes SO much of a difference. Leading up to “All I Ask of You” before the rooftop, in the movie version Christine says “He’ll kill you, his eyes will find us there…” you being Raoul. But in the stage version she says “He’ll kill me.” And it really should have hit earlier that phantom wasn’t a bad guy, but 16-year-old me needed to hear that to be like oh shit. Like he’s not just “romantically” 🤢 jealous, he is UNHEALTHY. Gerald Butler does a bit too much sexy for the movie but it’s not his fault 😂
True. Disfigured, are you kidding me? That looked like a bad sunburn at worst; a society decades before OSHA and antibiotics (syphilis can do seriously nasty things to a human face) would have seen _a lot_ worse things. I think they hired Gerard Butler because he'd just looked sexy AF in Dracula, and then couldn't bear uglying him up. Pity about it, it makes the whole fuss about his face a bit ridiculous.
Yeah they could have made his face look a lot worse. I've always said, the good half of his face more than makes up for whatever went on with the other side 😂
My grandma tried to set me up with Patrick Wilson when they both lived in Tampa, FL about 20 years ago because she knew his father and knew we both liked musical theatre. Thank you for having such faith in me, Grandma. I would have been alright with that arranged marriage.
I just felt the need to add that Erik is not only a musical genius, he is an architectural genius as well, which contributed to his bloody past actually and really started to mess his mind.
Also in the books he was a really good assassin too. In the movie they sing "keep your hand at the level of your eyes" bc his signature assassin move was a garrotte I believe (or something similar). It's been a while since I read it.
@@StanLeeFan12 The garrote thing is actually what he picked up from all the things he did for the Shah...who he made the mirror labyrinth for.....which was the inspiration for his hideouts and traps.
When I saw it on stage The Phantom was about seven feet tall (no joke I met him at the stage door) and Christine was about five foot flat and at a really emotional part of the movie when the Phantom was on his knees the man’s head was at the same level as hers. And that really helps show how overpowering the phantom is in comparison without the creepy age difference.
So I know why Madame Giry didn't speak up!!! The novel has a little bit where she explains herself, it's a little fuzzy but he basically promises her that he'll make her daughter Meg an Empress. She believes him and basically lets him do whatever based on that promise. They don't mention it in the film, I think?
It also wouldn't make sense, in the novel, she doesn't actually know who Erik is, that role goes to the Persian, instead she is more like Christine, sincerely and blindly believing in his "magic".
Love the 'Maskerade'! So full of fun yet has the sobering sight on show business, when you can be exceptionally talented but no more that a phantom of a 'star'.
"he's lonely and he's persecuted, and a lot of people who grow possessive is because they feel they're entitled to love...and there's a difference between 'my story is sad' and 'now I get to be awful'" and THIS is exactly why I will never be a Snape apologist and why his love for Lily was actually obsession. I know you guys already did a video on Snape, but I'd love your take on Lily/Snape/James and why Lily would always choose James. Because there are a lot of parallels here
Snape was a mean person not (strictly) because he didn't get Lily, he was mean because he was a bullied and harassed kid who grew up internalizing all that anger and hate. It just also happens that his one ray of light ended up with his biggest tormentor which, you know, doesn't help either.
I think the difference is though that Snape lets Lilly go. He does resent James for it- though most of it is because the fact that James bullied him before taking his girl as the cherry on top. But he wasn't possessive of her, feel she owed him anything and didn't try to ruin her relationships. He was angry about being lonely and picked on, but he didn't feel he was owed anything from anyone because of it.
@@MsJubjubbird Yeah, I agree. I mean, I don't see his obsession with Lily as romantic, but the fact that he let her go and continued to protect her son even though he always just saw James in him makes him a very layered and therefore interesting character. He is still an awful person, though. I think what I can't forgive at all is that he was basically a Nazi and the reason he turned against Voldemort was not because he realised that his ideals were wrong, but because he went after Lily.
Am I the only person who love Gerard.B singing in the movie? I loved it because it does not sound manufactured, it sounds real and passionate.. Gerald if you see this I am a fan, I think you did excellent!
What people neglect to talk about when they dunk on Gerard Butler's singing, is that Andrew Lloyd Webber was involved in the audition process, and ALW was one of the people who chose him *because* he had a rasp to his voice, and because he sounded different from Raoul (who, if I remember correctly, is actually a lyrical tenor [yes, I really loved the making of features].). Honestly, he's exactly what I expect a guy who's been living underground for 20-ish years to sound like.
@@michaelawiseman7320 The fact ALW was involved means very little, he is not god. But also, not only is the phantom supposed to sound angeli, and know how to sing properly (hence why he can teach her in the first place) but also, one can sound much better without being classically trained, Ramin Karimloo, who would play the part only 4 years later was completely self-taught.
This movie version of the musical is quite underrated imo, not only is the "love" triangle and the difference between true love vs possessive lust incredibly well established (in comparison to some *cough* Twilight*cough* other similar stories) but it also managed to present Raoul as intelligent and carrying, Meg as a true friend and not just a side character, Mdm. Giry as incapable of seeing past the Phantom´s deformed appearance despite saving him when they were kids leading to her supporting his wrong behaviour, the "horror" of the Phantom coming from his behaviour more than his appearance, and Christine realising the situation rather quickly and waking out of her "teenage" phantasies to live and thrive in the beauties of the real world. Not to mention the movie`s cinematography, set design, costumes, acting etc.
You know what's really fun? Watching this immediately after watching Lindsay Ellis' video about POTO. Chef's kiss. Also cutting to Carlotta when Jono's throat decided to quit on him made me cackle.
Speaking of Aslan - I wouldn't mind seeing an episode on that. Particularly the arc of Edmund's betrayal and the dinamics of siblings. Right now the my most rough relationship in my family is with my sister. It'd be a neat episiode esecially considering the range of ages involved.
the movies did a good job of adding a sort of realism to the stories, about them as siblings, about them being suddenly swept into a strange land with a heavy responsibility on their heads, and the fact that they're all young children dealing with the fact that there is a war going on.
@@18Hongo lol, I don't think this is news to anyone, but sure, it is a conservative religious story with backwards stereotypes of men and women. Still a fun read, hated the movies thou
I think it’s more apparent in the stage version, but Christine absolutely thinks the phantom is a fatherly spirit. In “Wandering Child,” she says “Angel or FATHER, Friend or phantom?” And later on he chastised her and says “Too long you’ve wandered in winter, far from my FATHERING gaze.” As a kid I never caught that, but as an adult I can absolutely see how troubling this dynamic is.
It’s a mark of how much I love both phantom of the opera and cinema therapy that I’m willing to put myself through 30 minutes of Gerard Butler’s singing for this
In the book she does kiss him. But I think it’s on the cheek or forehead or something. It was the first time he’d felt compassion from another, as even his mother wouldn’t touch him. He did let her go after the kiss, but there was never anything sexual between them.
It's basically what kills him! He's so overwhelmed by that simple act of compassion that he becomes weak and dies within a few weeks or something like that!
19:32 They cut the line "He was bound to love you when he heard you sing," heavily implying that she's only lovable because he made her something to be loved. Even in his moment of heartbreak, he is trying to claim credit for her happiness and success.
One of my favourite parts in the show is the second Notes segment, in the Phantom’s letters, when he says ‘If pride will let her return to me…’ This is such a great example of him twisting the situation around to shift the blame onto Christine, and making it seem like it was her fault for ‘leaving’ him when she never even promised to stay. Like you said, he claims her achievements as his own (though obviously he still idealises her)
Nice analysis, but I've always personally thought that was Phantom referring to himself. When Christine first sang when she was younger, he thought he fell in love with her but it was actually an obsession.
@@brxzbze In the Phantom's defence, he was the one that taught her to sing in the first place. Yeah, taking complete credit for her achievements isn't right, but he deserves some of it.
It was with the flashback that I asked myself “Wait was Madame Giry in love with the Phantom when they met as children?” Because I think she might be. She’s protecting him, looking after him, she’s engaging in illegal activities for him, you don’t do that for someone you only pity. Obviously though The Phantom didn’t share those feelings but to stay in/be a part of his life she just continued to maintain the relationship they had. Then when The Phantom identified Christine as someTHING he wanted, Giry proceeded to facilitate that demand, as she always did, and if The Phantom’s demand also allows Giry to live vicariously through Christine, to finally experience The Phantom’s love and affection, so much the better. I’m probably wrong though. It was just a thought.
A lot of fan material pitches her in somewhat of a maternal role, but there are others that have romantic tension - it really depends on how much of an age gap you decide to give them and the characters work okay with both. The original lyrics to one of the songs in Love Never Dies (the bad sequel musical) has Madame Giry say “I’ve been mother to [Phantom] and Christine as much as my daughter”, so that’s pretty explicitly on the maternal end lol. But that lyric was cut in later versions anyway (but not cut from my memory - it lives there rent-free…)
I think Antoinette Giry loves him but like a little brother and she admires him for his intelligence and many talents like music, magic, architecture etc and she also feels pity for him.
I will say I am fascinated by the Phantom and Gerard Butler's performance especially the end when he's sitting by himself listening to the monkey always gets me so emotional like it's sooo sad (I know Christine made the right choice but it still gives me all the sad feels)
I adore the breakdown on how toxic the relationships are between characters. My only wish with the episode would be a further breakdown of Alan's critiques. I know the show is generally positive, but I'd love to see his thoughts on how they could improve things he alluded to like the editing and stagecraft. As a studying filmmaker, hearing a professional's opinions and examples would help tremendously in improving my work.
Hoo boy, this is a tough one. I think what really gets me on Team Raoul is that, even if Erik had courted Christine properly, he's still SO much older than her. She met both Raoul and Erik when she was a child, and Raoul is much closer to her own age. I know an age difference doesn't immediately make for a bad relationship, but it's questionable, especially when one party wasn't of age when the friendship began. Add the power dynamic of Erik being responsible for Christine's rise to stardom, and like I said, it's not just him being the Opera Ghost that makes it messy.
Raoul is 21, Christine is 20, and Erik is about ... people estimate from mid 40s to early 50s in the novel, and musical, but the film rreeally messes with the ages.
…actually…Christine is about 17, and Raul’s around 30 (literally 10 years older, especially in the book’s source material), and the Phantom is Ambiguous but no younger than 30 (if you assume Madam Giri was about 10 years older than the Phantom and roughly in her 40s-50s) NEITHER. Neitherneitherneither. (And in ALW’s Definitely Fanfic vs Adaption “Love Never Dies” it gets…worse. Rhaul’s predictably abusive, Erik is still Erik, and Meg has a mental breakdown turned “tOtALLY jEALoUSY” and murders Christine.)
Gerard Butler is a great singer for a movie. He sounds rugged, vulnerable, and also gives some sex appeal. Doing a movie is completely different than doing a Broadway musical. You have the option to show intimacy and emotions by being able to whisper or softly sing versus belting out notes as you would on stage. I think they all did a fantastic job portraying what they needed to in the movie.
I completely agree with you!!!! I really enjoyed Butler's performance in the movie. Some people don't realize that Broadway is not the same as film. I love when musical movies use somewhat amateur singers. Professionals just seem false to me....Don't get me wrong, I like Ramin, Crawford and the other opera guys, but as Broadway actors, they would not have been brilliant for a movie.
I completely agree! Controversially I feel the opposite in regards to Jackman. Fantastic voice for stage but he has less subtly which I think you need in a movie. 👀
No. Lol sorry I just really think this is a weak excuse. Like I agree with the general point that stage and movie have different requirements and stylizations etc but at the end of the day… I am positive there was someone out there who could act, had the charisma and physical appeal and subtleties, and could also fucking sing. For most roles, I would be more willing to concede some vocal ability in favor of more of anything else required, but it’s really at the top of requirements for this character more than any other I can think of, because it is part of the actual text, acknowledged in-universe in such a way that it impacts the plot, that he had a bewitchingly beautiful voice and impressive (to a bunch of opera house employees!) command of music.
im shocked you didn't talk about how Christine wanted nothing to do with the police plot (after the note song) and how raoul refused her denial or to listen to her, pushed her, minimized her fears.
@@Anne-ny3bz In Twisted, there's also one bit of Raoul's that I think is particularly essential- "Don't think that I don't care... but every hope and every prayer rely on you now" something along those lines. He doesn't dismiss her fear out of hand. He acknowledges that the situation is horrifying, but assures her that this is something that she CAN do ("You said yourself, he was nothing but a man") while also pointing out that this plan may be their only chance to be free of Erik. He loves her and fears for her but he's also not allowing himself to succumb to that. And, I think this Raoul would have run after Christine when she was abducted had he not been stuck up in a box seat, lol. What's he gonna do, yeet himself over the edge? He's not a stuntman.
This Bad Boy syndrome as a teenager till I turned 18 didn't really feel like something is wrong. So it makes sense for someone as young as Christine to not see the toxicity of the Phantom. I always read stories on Wattpad and I had fun reading them and then as I grew I started seeing the problematic nature of the Bad Boy Syndrome and how troubling the whole relationship and the message being conveyed is coupled with the Main Character who is not like the other girls and can fix that Bad Boy.
This! I used to ship the heck out of Christine and Raoul when the movie came out - I was thirteen then. And up until maybe 18 I was reading a lot of fanfiction which, in the 00's, was mostly unhealthy relationships and teenage drama. And I was not just reading it - I was buying into that stuff! Seriously getting emotionally invested into fics titled, for example, "Hatred" (and no, I'm not joking, I wish I was; the title is very telling of the fic's contents and quality). So indeed, it makes a lot of sense that a very young woman would buy into it, too. Mind you, this is not only that she doesn't have access to Internet and therapy; she was also brought up at a theatre, where drama is a huge part of life, both onstage and offstage. Of course she would never notice the red flags.
The Phantom is not a typical bad boy. He does bad things out of anger and self-defense. He has a reason for it, because society ruined his life. It's not his fault he was born deformed. As for Christine, she is not a victim. She's a demon.... little lying Delilah.... a little viper.... The Phantom was right about her.😆
@@Axiniana Hoo boy. Hatred feels like your typical wattpad story where the relationship will definitely be toxic. Buying into such stuff is scary. I don't why our minds don't see it for what it is. Why did we ship a good girl fixing a bad boy in our teens?? Your right even though Christine didn't have Internet she had the theater her whole life and worse her guardian isn't warning again such toxic relationships. I am glad Christine realised it when she did and didn't fall into that trap.
Growing up I loved this film not just because I’m a musical theater lover but because the story drew me in. Yes the Phantom is a creepy stalker in a way but back as a teen I didn’t think much of it as I do as an adult. Honestly if Raol really wanted to protect Christine he would have taken her away from the opera house but he also respected her career
I'd really like a second part where you dig into Raoul. Like, him sleeping outside her bedroom and she feels she needs to sneak past him because she can't trust him to respect her wish to visit her father's grave. Raoul not dignifying her fears about the Phantom, like when he tries to pressure her into going public at the ball or when he bullies her into performing in Don Juan in hopes of catching the Phantom. And how in that final confrontation he throws out "say you love him and my life is over". Neither relationship seems very good for Christine to me.
while raoul and christine's relationship is much healthier, i still hate him because when she was literally telling him there is a man who is obsessed with me and he's killing people, raoul's like, "oh you silly little sausage, you're imagining things" edit: IM NOT SAYING THAT SHE SHOULD HAVE BEEN WITH THE PHANTOM OMG I THOUGHT THAT WAS OBVIOUS SHE JUST DESERVES BETTER IN ALL CASES
I don't know if I agree with that - Raoul clearly knows there is a murder going on (Buquet is obviously very dead), and Christine is rather telling him that the Phantom (who everyone thought was some sort of supernatural being) is real, that he can spy on them in a way that implies that he has magical abilities, and that he'll do it again. Overall I don't think the scene is very clear and I get why it confuses people, but that's the kind of moment where I can tell Christine's part was written for Sarah Brightman, because she has a haunted Victorian girl quality to her where you constantly wonder whether she's quite right in the head.
I’ve thought on this a lot as growing up I was really interested in these kinds of stories (Phantom, Beauty and the Beast, Twilight, etc) People are so aggressively mean about teen girls and their interests, it’s just piled on all the time. So I was so into the idea of someone loving me intensely despite all of that (bonus points that the women in these stories tend to be pretty trait-less so it’s easy to self insert yourself). People were mean about my clothes, how I talked, my music, my friends, my personality just based on the fact I was a teen girl. I think it’s similar for moms, especially SAHM. I think that’s a big part of why these stories are so attractive to those demographics. It’s more than sex appeal or danger, I think it’s a response to how society treats them and helps make those women and girls more vulnerable to predators as well
I also wanted to look into the broader context of romance as a genre. Started reading the old classics from Victorian era, etc. A lot of women were in loveless marriages because families pushed their young daughters to marry a guy with money and status. These stories were those women's escapism. It was nice to sit and read about a bad boy intense-as-heck love story while hubby was overseeing his lands or whatever. But then you put the book down, knowing those books aren't reality. I think somewhere over the decades, women started to wonder why those stories were only stories and not real life. To have a good partner in life, you don't want the guys from the books either. That line got so blurry and even disappeared, and we no longer realized it was for entertainment rather than some kind of goal. This is just my theory, as I cannot tell what 17th and 18th century women felt or thought when reading those books. But even I did not realize it was a fantasy only until my late 20s. This is what I experienced in my life. I am fat and ugly and was never paid much attention by men or by anyone. It has always been that way. I wanted to be whisked away by the bad boy and be loved. Then I learned those romances were a lie. Now, I am in my 30s and will live the rest of my life without love, because I am so drawn to the unhealthy dynamic that I must avoid it entirely. I still hate everything about myself, which is only going to draw in predators. Normal dudes fit for partnership are all taken by now, and I'm honestly still not great at judging character, and would most likely be entirely turned off by someone who would treat me correctly.
@@shroomyk You're deserving of love too! I'm sure you'll find someone who cares about you, try to focus on making more friends and forming a strong group, which I'm sure will seem very difficult, but it's a very important step. Also very interesting comments about old novels, I never would've thought about that despite being a big time fan of old novels.
I was told to dress down because of my curves and when I did, attracted even more creeps because they assumed I had low self-esteem. ....Gross men tend not to believe me when I tell them that experimental finding so it's a good test.
Another detail I noticed in the movie was the candelabras (i think that's what they're called). The first time the phantom takes her down to his holy-pneumonia-batmancave, they're all gold and held by golden arms that move the light with her. After that they're just plain iron, wall-mounted, and there's cobwebs everywhere. Because she could see through the illusion then.
I loved this musical growing up. It's what made me decide to become a singer. I remember feeling so sorry for the phantom. I distinctly remember saying to my mom that I wished I could have shown him the love he needed. I definitely didn't understand how controlling he was as a child and I definitely wouldn't run into a relationship with him as an adult, but I still feel the same pity and sadness for him that Kristine did.
Why does no one notice how controlling Raoul was? He wanted to capture the Phantom and ordered Christine to lure him in. 😆 The Phantom was just very jealous because he felt the competition. He was desperately in love and did not know how to keep his beloved.
@@ingridmay66 Honestly? Raoul just seems normal for the time he was born in. Probably nicer than many guys were actually. Either way, he's less controlling than the Phantom. He didn't try to kill people to force her into anything.
I will always love the way Gerard sings as the phantom. I know he doesn’t have the most amazing voice, but the emotion in his voice (as well as that Scottish gruffness) really draws me in
I went and saw The Phantom of the Opera in England a few years ago, and this incredible thing they did with props enhanced how creepy the moment was with Phantom watching Raoul and Christine. They had this lovely sculpture that was painted in a dark gold. And it was used in many scenes of the opera house and such, but when the Phantom sings “you will curse the day you did not do what the Phantom asked of you” they turned off all the lights and suddenly, you could see the pleasant angels of the sculpture had lights strung on their faces that you couldn’t see in the light of the stage, but then when they turned the face lights on and the house lights off, their faces glowed sinister and devilish.
It's worth noting that in the book the musical is based on the phantom actually uses some form of magic influence to seduce her. It's like the effect of drugging her - not just the kreeper vibes, actual manipulation of her mind....
I haven't read the book, but I remember my eldest daughter did while in HS, and when I commented about how dark the movie is, my daughter informed me how much darker the book is!
He uses a type of gas to numb her senses so she's more "willing" to obey him, it has an exotic scent that Raoul catches on when he enters the dressing room
Problematic love triangle aside, this film cemented my love for musicals. I could care less about the plot and I don't find the phantom's obsession romantic but the music score for this especially the intro is so chef's kiss. P.S. For those who don't know this is based on a novel, spoiler alert, both Raoul and the Erik sucks a lot more and Christine only chose Raoul bc he's the lesser of two evils. In fact this is one of the rarest cases where the film is better than the novel. Edit: Film/Musical Madam Giry is actually a combination of 2 characters, Madam Giry and the Persian (who is novel only). The Persian is actually the one who is kind of Erik's guardian who knew him since childhood and applauded his genius and eventually turned against him when he turned for the worse, as for Madame Giry the reason why she's an accomplice bc in the novel the phantom prophesized that her daughter would become an empress or smth like that but in the film she has this weird fanaticism on the phantom's genius.
Yes yes yes!! In the book neither are good fits for Christine. Christine seriously deserves better but it was yee olden days and Christine needed to marry someone to take care of her 🙈🙄😑 and I am always pissed at The Persian erasure.
When I was a teenager I was alone in being on “team Raoul” as an adult I’m glad I could already sense the issues with Phantom and hope my old friends have also come around.
I’m team Christine. She can do better than either of them. Raoul is pretty, charming, and wealthy and that makes his flaws more forgivable. He is entitled, more subtly manipulative, jealous to the point of stalker-ish behavior and violence in some versions, and such a whiny immature kid (I mean he is a kid though...). So most of my opinion of him comes from the book and some of the older movies, they really made him a white knight in this movie. In the 25th anniversary musical I don’t think he actually has true romantic feelings for her until the dungeon when his life flashes before his eyes and Christine gives up her freedom for him. Puts shit into perspective 😆. It was all ego boosting and fantasy until then. I just don’t like that they downplay his problems to give her someone to end up with that doesn’t make us feel icky. Sorry I’m ranting now, I’m not arguing that phantom is a better choice, just that neither of them are good choices.And if we’re talking specifically about this movie Raoul > Literal murderer 🤷🏻♀️
As an adult, "Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again" made me so emotional. here was Christine pouring her heart out to her father's grave, her loneliness, her sorrows, her fears, and finding determination to keep going, to grow up and not be so reliant on others. and then imagine my abject disgust when the Phantom shows up at the end, singing about poor lonely little Christine it's okay I'm here now ladidaa - like, buddy, YOU'RE the problem!! there was also something that struck me about that song, where Christine alludes to how the Phantom found her when she was young, not long after she lost her father - and i realized the Phantom straight up _groomed_ her and took advantage of her vulnerable state. it always struck me as odd that people would ship them unironically (not even as like a "i like dark, messy ships" kind of way) and not pick up on that.
I want to thank you guys. Watching your channel gave me the courage to finally go seek out therapy. I am so glad I have finally taken this step for my mental health. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.
Lovely breakdown guys thank you! Would you guys cover Kubo and the 2 strings one day? I’d love to see you talking about the story of Kubo’s journey, being made to grow up fast to survive and how that effects his confidence and self-trust. Just a suggestion, if you’re looking for one 🥰
I been saying this ever since I saw the movie but I adore Patrick Wilson's Raoul. In the plays Raoul usually has a strong loud voice, which is fine, but Patrick Wilson brings such a gentle earnest quality to his musical lines because his voice is much softer. Their version of "All I Ask of You" genuinely has brought me to tears multiple times because it sounds so sincere and leaves me feeling both warm and full but also incredibly lonely because I can't have it for myself(kind of like the Phantom, go figure xD).
I think Gerard butler was perfect for the part of the phantom. Most of the people who could hit all the notes perfectly were like Raul. They needed someone with rough edges. Someone to bring grit and some unstable mystery. It worked out well. Just imagine how blah the movie would be if the part of the phantom was played by a typical opera singer, another Raul. The casting was excellent, together they were able to tell a real story.
This is perfect timing considering the broadway show closing next year. Been waiting for this episode!❤ As a teen I didn't understand why Christine did not choose the phantom but now as an adult I completely agree with her choosing Raul. Also agree the singing is not the best but the acting and sets make up for that.
@@lefish5277 It closes on Feb 18, 2023 and I wish it wasn't true. I've only ever seen it on tour so really trying to see it in NYC. Also so sweet that you and your grandma went together as loved ones make it the best night.
I think making a video on The Last Unicorn might be fun! On one hand there's the beautiful, ethereal animation style and voice acting and on the other there's so much philosophical ideology to unpack especially toward the end when she loses her immortal indifference when she turns human and tries to stay with Prince Lir.
Thank you, Ali❣️ There's another ideological debate to unpack: whether or not one's life mission should absolutely preclude listening to longings that emerge along the way.
So I was a teenager when this movie came out and I remembered all these girls in my choir class were really into this movie. The romanticizing of their relationship really left an imprint on many little girls to probably go forward in life and be willing victims to all sorts of weirdness.
I just want to thank you guys for your insightful thoughts on this positive and negative. This musical saved me from growing depression when I was 12 and again as a movie at 17 to be more independent. I still went through my hard way lessons of realizing the Phantom guys out there need help, not romance but this is still a story, movie included, that’s a source of comfort to me and so many others. It’s finally nice to hear a couple of film lovers discuss this in a constructive way! After the critics mercilessly dumped on it there was no blind over gushing or pretension bashing, just mature and hilarious discussion that we love here 😅Thank you Jon for showing you can still love this film and see its flaws and thank you Alan for admitting to not being a fan really while still acknowledging what is great about it 😊
Thank you!! I never understood when fans of the movies and the Broadway show say that Christine should have chosen the Phantom because he’s sexy and lonely and I’m like “Um, no. he’s problematic??? He killed people when things don’t go his way, he’s super jealous he has anger issues, he uses blackmail. He manipulated a young impressionable woman since she was a child. How is he the better choice? Lol
@@ChristineTheHippie Erik just needs therapy. And I disagree with the notion that he manipulated Madame Giry. He was abused while he shouldn't have killed people, although we shouldn't forget humans weren't kind to him either.
In the movie it's pretty straightforward that Raoul is better and supposed to be the choice for Christine. It isn't as straightforward in the book, which is the source material, due to even Raoul being problematic and more depth given to Erik. I do agree Raoul is the better choice because he is not as a mess as Erik, but Raoul is just a lesser evil for the most part.
The musical/novel makes it clear that Erik didn't meet Christine until she was an adult. This child tutoring thing was added for the movie. And yeah, Erik needs help, but he doesn't go after kiddos.
My legit reaction when I saw this: "OHHHHH we are doing this! Heck yeah! ❤️" I remember seeing this movie when I was in middle school, during my music summer school class. I was the only girl who saw all the red flags with both relationships. I talked to the teacher at the end of the class about all of the grooming behaviors and all of the toxicity. My teacher was very proud of me 😊
I just finished the book, the original translation from the 1900's. And honestly Raul is JUST as obsessive as the phantom in the book. Multiple times Christine tells Raul to leave her alone, and he doesn't. He hides in her dressing room. He follows her to the graveyard. He listens in at her door. And when she expresses her feelings for the phantom to Raul and how complicated it is Raul just straight up is like, "Well go be with him then!" and throws tantrums. I'm not saying the Phantom has a healthy love by any means. However in the movie, they portray Raul very differently as a protector and an unconditional love for Christine, but in the book, Raul is possessive, obsessive, and toxic. He wouldn't trap her in a dungeon, but he completely disregards her wishes for space and belittles her complicated feelings.
Raoul and Erik are equally toxic, Erik would keep her in his underground lair forever while Raoul would lock her in a gold cage. Being from high society, a marriage with Raoul would force her to leave her life as a professional singer behind and take on the role of Vicomtesse. A life with Erik and a life with Raoul are equally lonely and stunt her growth as a person. The game made by Mazm lets Christine make her own choices when she rejects Erik, either live with Raoul and you see them both living a happy life near the sea, or she decides to not stay with Raoul and discover the world by herself and let herself be who she wants to be. To me, Christine never really had a choice or even have the occasion to wonder what she really wanted because she was stuck between two toxic people who wanted to win her affection and she was forced to choose between these two forced choices.
There is actually a sequel called Love Never Dies that portrays exactly this. Raoul has forced Christine into becoming a perfect noble's wife and made her give up singing. Because he "won" against Erik, he developed a gambling problem that tanked their finances and sets up the plot of the opera as Erik has set up a show on Coney Island and, behind the mask of being the show's owner, offers to pay to have Christine sing there.
Not only that, but the movie is based on Andrew Lloyd Webber’s musical, which in turn is based on the novel. And, yes, Love Never Dies is a must simply for the fact that it picks up where Phantom leaves off, and shows that Raoul and Christine’s marriage was just as toxic as the possibility of Christine getting with her groomer
I definitely agree. Raoul only helped “save her” because he wanted her to be as drawn to him as she was erik (which wasn’t even attraction more fear with moments of wonder and curiosity but I digress) like the same stalking habits and more child like tantrums when Raoul doesn’t get his way
BEAUTIFUL video! I remember joking with my dad about how the transition from “child” to “adult” included the transition from wishing Christine went with The Phantom to being happy that she went with Raoul. I absolutely adore this movie, the songs, the performances, everything about it, but you guys (as usual) NAILED IT with the relationship dynamic analysis. 😁
The movie’s relationship ❌
:
The movie’s aesthetic ✅
the carriage and graveyard scene is
🤌
@@sgr1888 fr
@@sgr1888 the graveyard makes me cry every time. Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again is heartbreaking, but so pretty.
If you want to see the story with GOOD singing, watch the 25th anniversary recording
@@pocahontasgirl1 First time I went to see this musical it was three months after my dad died. I didn't know much about it, my Dad was the one who wanted to go. The tickets had been for both of us to go together. That song started up and I lost it in the theater and just fell apart completely. I still can't hear that song without tearing up.
The phrase that resonated with me the most out of this whole episode was "A lot of times the monsters that we're scared of are the ones that we create by our lack of compassion".
It's an incredibly thoughtful view, full of empathy and responsibility.
That is entirely the point of the book, too. Because he had all this talent and *capacity* to be a great person but was utterly ruined by society's abuse of him and then he in turn perpetuated the cycle in abusing others. Just... not bullying people solves so many problems.
God yeah, it’s also why I am so attached to the character of The Phantom tbh. Like, while I didn’t end up like him (fiction is a fun house reflection of reality), I can certainly see ways in my past that could’ve turned such. Hell I still cry like a baby at his fate, especially if I’m listening to the 25th anniversary soundtrack! It’s so good. Stab me in the heart more, ALW!
@@blissinchains
That phrase Made me think about bullying... Is sad. (Sorry if I have gramatical mistakes, English is not my native language)
Agree 100%
I remember when I first watched this as a teenager and I was so upset that Christine and Phantom didn't end up together. Now as an adult I rewatched it and realized what the movie was trying to do and all of the messages it was trying to get across. Definitely can't blame Christine since me too as a teenager thought Phantom was dreamy
Technically Erik was too tortured to be a partner, so I accept Christine's choice. He was abused for so long wouldn't really know how to be in a healthy relationship. I like them as friends.
Meanwhile Love Never Dies said SCREW IT 😅
Not to mention the phantom murdered two innocent people.
That's why I don't understand why people see as canon that so called "sequel" where they make Christine and the Phantom ship actually happen.
"Is so romantic!", no, is so problematic....
Yeah, I loved this when I was a teen. I remember telling people she was boring for not choosing Phantom. To be fair, the flashback is what made me sympathize with him. I also just didn't like Raoul. He was just money in a nice suit which doesn't appeal to me.
I love that you pointed out that she's more afraid of his anger than any physical deformity. Other versions and the book make so much more of his face than any other character flaw
The original book makes so much more of his intellect and intense violence that make him a bad dude, not his disfigured face.
Well the book doesn't focus on a single defect because the Phantom has many problems. His violence is explained but it isn't excused.
His facial scars are also explained, but the way the Phantom addressed them was not by overcoming his trouble, but rather to wear a mask and hide in the sewers.
I also think the point of the original work was not even a character analysis of the Phantom, but a criticism of theater and what essentially was "Hollywood culture" of the 1800s.
I think even at one point in the movie she says “it’s in your soul where the true distortion lies”
@@isabelledeal1338yeah the book version is an abusive, serial murdering lunatic, and that is not the guy Gerry B was playing for the movie
@@l_rob420I think Butler is still playing an abusive serial murdering lunatic, but the focus is more on the charisma and manipulation than the latter and we get more sympathy for him so it’s hard to see him as just a murderer.
Because of watching CinemaTherapy, the phrase "Staying means nothing if you don't have the option to leave." Has entered my consciousness and I have said it to several people in bad situations.
She could've left if giving the Phantom a chance. Not talking about all crushes though.
Why did I read this in Gollum’s voice.
That's awesome
YES. This -- exactly this -- is what bothered me growing up in evangelical circles. Divorce was touted as some horrible evil, like you ruined your life/family/etc. When in reality, the possibility of divorce--the fact that it's always an option for partners... it gives the commitment meaning. Forbidding it and putting social pressures on staying takes away from the depth of the couple's bond and choice to stay.
AND YOU'RE ALWAYS FREE TO BEGIN AGAIN AND YOU'RE ALWAYS FREE TO BELIEVE~~~~
WHEN YOU FIND THE PLACE WHERE YOUR HEART BELONGS YOU'LL NE~~~~ VER LEAVE~~~
Did someone get the reference?
This just reminds me of the time I was talking about the musical with a woman who began ranting about how cold and cruel Christine was in rejecting Phantom. I looked at her and said, "But he KILLED PEOPLE." She paused in her rant, tilted her head thoughtfully, and then very softly said, "Oh yeh. There's that."
But Christine was certainly cold and cruel. Christine didn't deserve his love! Who with a kind and compassionate heart, would walk up and take a prosthesis off someone's face without asking first? Then run to another guy and tell him how horrid that face was! Hmm... She betrayed him every time! Honestly, I hate traitors. I don't like how she humiliated him in front of the whole audience. She took off his mask for the second time and really knew how he would react to this. And what happened, he got angry again. Yes, he killed people, but he did it because he experienced violence and cruelty as a child. Society's behavior and isolation made him that way, but he wasn't really evil. Soldiers also kill people, but no one condemns them.... I even think the Phantom was a romantic soul. Also, he was very gentlemanly considering he had no social skills! So I bet most people would have done the same thing if they were in his place....Maybe even worse.... As for the viscount, who wouldn't choose the perfect prince? It was quite predictable that they would be a couple. She clearly wanted to become a countess, because she chose money over genius. I think Christine is a typical gold digger like most females. 😆 The same fate befell Heathcliff. (Wuthering Heights ) The Phantom and Heathcliff are a lot alike as well as the romances they had with their loves, both girls chose rich men.
And the Phantom isn't a psychopath! He's just madly in love... People do crazy things, when they're in love. In fact, if he was really obsessed he wouldn't have let her and Raoul go.
@@gr-wg2nn If you don't feel compassion for him, then you are heartless.. 😅
plus he basically groomed her ??
If you think this is healthy love, please consider getting help.
@@ingridmay66 compassion? Yes.
But accepting anything and everything without critical feedback is not the right response to that.
This story just cements in my head the term "Hurt people hurt people" while adding the caveat "Loved people love people"
With the extra extra caveat that "Loved people hurt people" and "hurt people can love people"
Sometimes hurt people love people because they don't want others to suffer the same pain they know
I can see that
He let her go because he didn't want her to live the way he lived. It is clear that he realized his mistakes.
@@CazuhLynn When one is put on display as a sideshow freak and sexually abused by their jailer... it hardly promotes a healthy view of humanity. Sorry.
I watched this when I was younger, and I remember thinking and asking my mom "wait, why's she kissing him?" When Christine kissed the phantom. I was a confused little child. I think my mom explained it as an apology. I think her word were "she's saying I love your music, but not you." Doesn't really hit the nail on the head, but it made sense to like, six year old me.
Your mum is a genious!
So, uh... funny story: you know how kids sometimes have that one movie they watch over and over a thousand times? This was that movie for me
Picking up plot as a small autistic child is hard, especially when there's enough visual detail to process for literal days and the nature of singing means I'm going to mishear key parts of dialogue. The intricacies of picking up on multiple aspects of body language and stringing them together into a single coherent impression is still mostly beyond me now, so as a younger version of myself I was even more clueless.
... and I didn't realize that the phantom wasn't canonically a literal angel until I was a teenager. I also picked up on zero of the creep factor until around then and didn't realize how big the age gap was until I saw this video about a decade after all my other realizations occurred. I also didn't quite get why she wanted to be with Raoul as a kid when the phantom seemed to be a much more interesting person to me
Basically what I'm trying to say is that I took in all the information this film puts out backwards and now I'm an adult who unironically reads Kylo Ren fanfiction 🤣
@@madeliner1682 Actually, it makes perfect sense.
Most kids are not supposed to pick up on the "adult" jokes in Disneyfilms. So, well done, you were watching the way people your age watch movies (at that time anyway.)
And, yes, this film is inconsistent and confusing. Motivations are quite muddled all around. (And I agree, even though the phantom is not a very nice guy, he is definitely the most interesting one around!)
Also... I think you may be one of the "real" watchers. Acting is fun, but also still fake.
(Like some people will forever see through the illusions of a magician, because they will not let themselves be distracted, so the sleight of hands *does* get noticed. People with Downs syndrome are famous/feared for it!)
I (autistic) absolutely dislike romantic movies, because well.. they are (obviously) faking it!
(There are a few "good ones" out there, and suprisingly...they are the ones in which the characters&actors actually fancied each other romantically at that time! Or really liked each other as people and got along great as well as "playing the part of...")
Bodylanguage itself is hard enough without people telling you "yes, you see one thing, but your are supposed to ignore that and believe something else entirely".
That is why films etc. usually are not helping anyone actually learning to read bodylanguage and its meanings.
(If anything they teach you to fall for the fakers?)
Sorry, I do not know this Kylo Ren. But if it makes you happy...go for it!
Maybe write some of your own as well?
(Your comment had a nice flow to it, so you probably have a talent?)
@@madeliner1682 The phantom is a really interesting person... I wish I could find a man like him but men like him don't exist....😂😂😂
@@muurrarium9460 interesting point.
I guess part of why I usually don't have an emotional read on almost any movies is because my parents would tell me verbally how I was supposed to feel about it and they were never right, so now I just kinda get this gray wash of "eh, how the fuck am *I* supposed to know?"
Which is another factor in why I like Kylo Ren so much, because The Last Jedi was the movie that finally got the message across to me that people do things for reasons. That realization also happened at an embarrassingly late age, and in my defense the way people behave can still seem a little nonsensical even now, but it helped a lot and its effect on my world view still has aftershocks today
Out of the multiple versions i've seen of this musical, one had the Phantom physically pause and react to Raoul's line "Why make her lie to you to save me?" and I thought that was such an amazing touch to see him start to realize he's in the wrong at that point and it eases him into the change of heart at the end. I loved it
In the 25th Anniversary version the camera makes a point to capture Ramin's Phantom's reaction, plus the reaction to "the tears I might have shed for your dark fate/grow cold and turn to tears of hate" of sheer heartbreak and realisation
@@zarayoung3781 Ramin’s performance kills me so much in that. Like there’s only so much he can do with his face because of the makeup, but his hands are doing EVERYTHING the ENTIRE TIME and I love it SO. MUCH!
I've never seen any version of this play/movie in its entirety.
I have only a rough idea of the general story, thanks to comedy riffs on the plot.
@@MonkeyJedi99 This version of the movie is on UA-cam and it's free to watch (last I checked)!
@@zettagotbored9341 I liked that they got Ramin to play Christine's father in this movie.
Fun fact: In the Novel The Phantom of the Opera, Erik is described as corpse-like and is referred to as having a "death's-head" (human skull) throughout the story. He has no nose, and his eyes are sunken so deep in his skull that all that is seen are two eye sockets, except when his yellow eyes glow in the dark. His skin is yellowed and tightly stretched across his bones, and only a few wisps of dark brown hair are behind his ears and on his forehead.
His mouth is never described in as much detail, but is referred to as a “dead mouth” by Christine, and Erik acknowledges that his mouth is abnormal when lifting up his mask to display ventriloquism. He is described as extremely thin, so much so that he resembles a skeleton. Christine graphically describes his cold, bony hands, which also either feel or smell like death. There is debate among both English and French speakers as to whether the original French word used here, sentir, was intended by Leroux to mean "smells like" or "feels like,” as the French word is used for both feel and smell depending on the context.
Erik woefully describes himself to Christine as a corpse who is "built up with death from head to foot." According to the Persian, Erik was born with this deformity and was exhibited as le mort vivant in freak shows earlier in his life. Erik sometimes plays up his macabre appearance, such as sleeping in a coffin as if he is a vampire, he also costumes as the titular character from Edgar Allan Poe's The Masque of the Red Death for the masked ball.[citation needed]
Lon Chaney's characterization of Erik in the silent film The Phantom of the Opera (1925) remains closest to the book in content, in that Erik's face resembles a skull with an elongated nose slit and protruding, crooked teeth. In this version, Erik is said to have been deformed at birth.
A proper Phantom look. Gerard was too pretty.
@@Edidin The best phantom out there is without a doubt Leonidas Frank "Lon" Chaney.
@@benderbendingrofriguez3300 Yup. No argument from me here.
Also in the book, Erik is far less charming and Raoul is much more noble.
If you haven't read the phantom by Susan Kay. You're missing out on amazing look into his character. His look is held true to the original story. The book just expanded on his whole life.
One of the biggest points that wasn't pointed out but that was really notable for me was how Raoul gaslit Christine for so long telling her the phantom didn't exist when she KNEW he was real, and then used her as bait to catch him during the musical later even though she's scared and doesn't want to do it. Phantom is toxic, but don't put Raoul on a pedestal either😂
exactly.
I agreed. Raul is abusive too.
The Phantom is believed to be a legend in the opera house. Not a lot of people believe he exists, including Raoul. It's until he appears at the masquerade that Raoul soon believes Christine since there's now proof that the Phantom exists and is a real person. And then Raoul uses Christine as bait to capture him. Although Christine was scared, he tries his best to soothe her worries. And he was using her as bait for the sake of other people not getting hurt and killed.
Loving all the discourse here and I have an interesting fact to put into it. I saw Phantom on tour a few years ago and it was the restaged version, and in this version Christine actually physically slapped Raoul when he wanted her to be bait in Don Juan! There certainly were some interesting parts in that production that have changed some of my views on the show as a whole.
she shouldve just rejected both in my opinion.
I think it’s important to note that for most of the story the Phantom loves Christine’s VOICE and not her person. At least at first. When she kisses him at the end, THAT is when his love turns to actually loving HER. Not lustfully but because of the expression of care. And that’s why he’s able to let her go finally at the end. It’s also why he says “It’s over now, the music of the night.” That is a deeper abandonment of his previously held ideals than people realize.
Ooh, I like that! Yeah, he kind of sees her like a music box!
In the book, Erik isn't interested in sex at all, his view of a wife is someone who he can dress pretty and take to walks with. It's basically a child's view of what marriage is like before he learns about sexuality and procreation as he grows up.
@@lmahu6627 Man, I didn’t remember that even being mentioned in the book! I’ll have to take another look!
This reminds me of one post I saw where someone redrew a scene from The Swan Princess movie with Christine saying “Is my voice all that matters to you?” and The Phantom replies “What else is there?”
@lmahu6627 omg finally someone clears that up 😂 😭 I felt like it was so weird that that wasn’t how the story went but then BAM there you have it
"I gave you my music and this is how you repay me" is exactly the 'entitled nice guy' trope. He was nice to her (by giving her music, of his own volition) and therefore she owes him a relationship.
Playing devil's advocate, his music is him. Him saying this is the equivalent of a woman saying "I gave you my soul and you turn around and cheat on me." Totally not saying he's in the right.
@@daniellerapozo5777 you're pretty much on the money. Not that it isn't a toxic trait, but he's saying he feels cheated on, that he's committed himself to her and is hurt by her not doing the same... that is very different from someone saying "i bought you a dinner, take off your clothes"
@@daniellerapozo5777 No it's not, it's not the same thing at all, because she was not in a relationship with the Phantom, he just really wanted her to be. I guess it's the equivalent of a woman stalking a man since his childhood and devoting all her time and energy to him and then screaming that he's "cheating on her" when he finds an age-appropriate girlfriend.
@@NoESanity You're literally describing a Nice Guy, though. A Nice Guy "commits" himself to a girl who only wants to be friends with him, and when she gets a boyfriend she's actually attracted to, the Nice Guy flips out and screams that "I was your shoulder to cry on! I spent so much time and effort on you! And now you friendzone me?!"
You guys are so desperately trying to make the Phantom seem morally superior, but now he looks even more like a Nice Guy.
Oh give it up. He was abused, enslaved, made to kill people in Persia to not be murderd himself… at what point exactly between that and his mother abandoning him gave him a chance to learn about healthy relationships? Oh, right. None.
I always interpreted the ending a little differently: when Christine chose to stay with the Phantom to save Raoul, Erik saw in her eyes how much she truly loved Raoul. Whether or not he was going to break the trust and to kill Raoul anyway, he realized doing so would only hurt Christine and make her miserable. I think it was that moment for the first time in his life, Erik felt compassion for someone else. Because he once lived miserably, and experienced cruelty against him. Coercing Christine to stay here with him would be repeating what happened to him as a child. And I think that's what finally made Erik break, and he let her go. I wouldn't call it a redemption arc by any means (he did commit murder after all) but it's the closure he needed all these years.
I also loved the contrast between Erik's lair and the rooftop where he watched Christine and Raoul make out. The Phantom's hideout is dark, murky, and cluttered, and it feels almost claustrophobic and hard to breathe in especially with the Phantom's menacing aura. The rooftop, despite the cold and snow, has open air and space allowing Christine to breathe and be vulnerable. I don't think Erik realized it then, but I think after the kiss was when he also realized that Christine needed to be free to be alive, something he never had. Because even with the help of Madame Giry, all he was able to do was move from one cage and live in another.
Your last sentence. Thank you!!
That is some solid literary analysis *nods approvingly*
You nailed it. I always thought the same
The problem is, that she just didn't love the phantom. He still escaped from the theater and started a new life. If she loves him, they could run away together and live somewhere in the village. And it wouldn't be a cage, which means they could both be free.....
There is actually a sequel to Phantom of the Opera called Love Never Dies. It has a very interesting take of what happens after The Phantom of Opera.
The part that really starts to break the phantom comes right before Raúl arrives when Christine sings
“This haunted face holds no horror for me now ...
It's in your *soul* that the true distortion lies ...”
And Emmy Rossum’s delivery still gives me chills
I can hear that line in my mind reading this. She delivers it so perfectly!!!
always loved that part as well, especially as it shows that true horrors come from actions and not appearances.
I didn't know that's what the line was, helps. Thank you
I loved this movie when I was like 14. I really wanted Phantom to be with Christine, but I left it for a few years and re-watched it recently and all I could see was how afraid Christine must have been.
It's amazing the difference some growth can make.
I still want them to be together. For me, they are the most beautiful duet in tv history.😅
To me, the Phantom is not really loving Christine as a person, but a piece of his own lifeless artwork. He wants her to be with him, to be on the stage, and in return to love him, but he often ignores or manipulates Christine's feelings and thoughts. His controlling behaviors (which is stronger on the stage than in the movie) are a true threat. Yet, from the lyrics, we see a deeply traumatized child who just wants to be treated with kindness, who has perhaps been rejected so often that he learned to get what he wants by threatening people. It's sad, but unless the Phantom is willing to change, just like the Beast is willing to change for Belle, Christine will not be happy if she chooses the Phantom.
@@HingYok Why wouldn't she be happy with him? He was kind to her. And he loved her so much!!!! If he hadn't shown her his beloved doll (her in the wedding dress), I do think she'd have slept with him (after the music of the night). 😂😂 Well, Dude is lonely since his birth. I don't think he really knows how to handle with girls (why did she faint? She was so weak 😆)....After the song she had to kiss him... Poor Phantom, a rookie mistake ruined it for him..
...
@@ingridmay66 Because the Phantom has this "do-as-I tell-you-or-else" thing to everyone, even to Christine in the stage version ("You will sing for me!" instead of "you belong to me!" in the masquerade). He might seem nice to her, but it's not like he cares if she's happy. Not a scene in the stage or the movie version has shown that he cares about Christine's feeling. Maybe Christine's kiss has changed him at the end, but it's too late.
I never really liked Raoul OR Phantom, but I was able to understand the Phantom's inability to let go of his pedestal vision of Christine. Understand but not approve of, of course.
Honestly, the more I grow up, the more I sympathize with the stage hands and the theater owners than any of the main characters, lol!
With the final point of "he'd cling to her like a life preserver", it was like that in the book! Erik kept Christine with him for over a month. I forget how long exactly. That was how long it took him to realize she was wilting in his company and the freedom to choose was what was necessary to make her happy.
Yeah, and then later on in the book he still eventually kidnaps her a second time and Raoul and the Persian get stuck in a torture chamber which is mostly focused on mental torture (tree in the middle surrounded with six mirrors that will drive you insane). And then the choice is even way more scary, because in the theater/movie the Phantom says that Christine has to choose between him and Raoul, and if she chooses Raoul Raoul will die. In the book he has a whole bunch of explosives. If she doesn't choose Erik (the Phantom) basically EVERYONE will die and that includes hundreds of people who in that moment are visiting a play at the opera house. Reading the book just makes me laugh at how mild and sweet the Phantom is in the movie/theater. I recently read the book. Book's Phantom is much much more scary.
@@ivanka-vdR I was speaking about the aftermath of the final incident, but yes, book Erik is a lot more menacing than movie Erik.
@@janeenschultz8502 I think this might depend on translation, because I've read a couple different translations of this book, and in none of them does he actually keep her for any length of time after the grasshopper/scorpion choice. He pulls the viscount and the Daroga from the torture chamber. Sets them out to dry as it were, and then lets them all leave. He asks her to return to him and bury his body when the newspaper prints that Erik is Dead. The only time she is kept below for any length of time in the two versions I've read is when he takes her below after she performs the first time in Carlotta's place. Book Erik is terrifying I agree. Stage Erik can be too depending on who is playing him. I've seen the stage show a number of different times, and it is always amazing to me how differently the same words/songs hit depending on who is playing the role.
@@briarbramblerose So, I just checked my version of the book and it doesn't say how long she was with him that last time. The Persian was gone and Raoul was chained up. Christine cried over and with Erik, her in pity and him in happiness. Then he let her and Raoul go.
@@janeenschultz8502 book Erik is absolutely terrifying. I've loved the stage show since I first saw it at 14, but I didn't read the book until I was 19 or 20. It really changed my perspective on the show. While I still love it, it lost a lot of the tortured romance vibe appeal it had for me as a kid. As it should have growing up anyway, since he's a deranged killer, not a tortured soul longing for beauty.
As a childhood I couldn’t understand why she chose Raul. As an adult I understand. Raul asks to share love with him, show it to everyone, take her with him everywhere. Phantom just wants her to himself. And at the end, by releasing her, he does show real love. UGH god I love this movie so much.
In the book Raoul act like a spoiled brat & is very mean towards Christine I don't like him for Christine & after "Love Never Dies" I don't like Christine with Erik either.
@@catspaw3092 We do not mention LND! Also it's not acknowledged as canon by Leroux's Estate.
As an adult, I don’t get how she chose either. Like specifically We Have All Been Blind kills me with their relationship. Erik did actually want to show her off and shower her constantly with everything that made her happy. What you have to remember is that he was raised as a side show attraction and treated like absolute trash and this was in a time before self help and therapy and everything. She presents the idea of Angel of Music and he only becomes exceptionally controlling after she removed his mask and he then had to worry she would fear his appearance - what had made him the subject of rejection and abuse his entire life. Kidnapping and murder aren’t okay, but if Christine had gotten any amount of actual education and therapy had been a thing it honestly could’ve been pretty okay
@@Anne-ny3bz Did I mention he was creeping on Christine too & kept getting pissy because she was not like who he envisioned she should be when they were kids all lovey dovey when the Christine he sees before him is nothing like that? As much as I dislike Raoul they really did him wrong in the sequel musical "Love Never Dies" they paint him as a drunk & gambler they could give him his dignity & kill him off instead leaving Christine alone with a child that was never his & he never found out the truth. My idea is Christine is left with his debts & she has to keep performing to pay them off I soured on Erik because he spent 10 years never getting over Christine & treats those like Madame Giry & her daughter Meg like crap.
I ALWAYS laugh when the horse appears in the tunnels and Christine rides it for like 10 seconds 😂
Same 😂
It's because the phantom is the man you wish your man could smell like
What's wild is that Emmy Rossum has said that she looks back on her performance and singing in this movie and is basically disappointed with herself and thinks she could have done so much better 🤯 what?! This was the first play I ever saw on stage and it was incredible. So this movie definitely has a special place in my heart.
I think she was fantastic, Doug Walker is an idiot. I'm guessing Emmy is a perfectionist.
She's certainly very talented, but also with no control over which take they use, or the instructions from the director.
I remember watching and reading about some of her press about it when she talked about it layer in life. She says her voice was juvenile (she was 18 during filming) and she wishes that she had done better and had a more mature and refined voice.
But overall, absolutely adore her role in this movie. Wouldn't change it for anything.
@@makaylabailor1211 I think a juvenile voice fits the character. I wouldn't change anything either.
She didn't do badly but was very young with an underdeveloped voice for Christine. If she'd done it in her 20s she probably would have been great. They had a similar problem with Butler, he's talented but lacked the training.
Even though I grew up with this movie, I hadn't made the connection that this is basically be a perfect mirror of my abusive ex, complete with the nearly twice my age, grooming, possessiveness, and controlling behavior. I'm still learning to give myself grace for not seeing the signs, but sometimes the Phantoms out there play the part of Raoul quite convincingly. I'm really grateful that CT made a video on this dynamic. Love isn't supposed to hurt or feel scary. Know that you aren't alone, and that you're far more resilient than you may realize. It's possible to build a peaceful and joyous life and surround yourself with people who want to celebrate your happiness and lift you up. It's never, ever too late to take your life back.
I’m glad you forgave yourself and realized the red flags in this movie.
"The Phantoms out there play the part of Raoul quite convincingly." Beautifully said.
Yeah ik that feeling AND know how it is...without the part of being twice my age. i'm still learning to forgive myself as well, so we're all in this together! (:
My cousin and her groom sang "All I Ask of You" to each other at their wedding. I would have been very cringe if they couldn't pull it off, but they sang it perfectly. I couldn't believe their vocals. It was such a romantic and beautiful moment.
Woooooow!! Wish I could have witnessed it 👏🥹
My mom's name is Christine. She said her and dad were gonna do all i ask of you at least for a dance in their wedding vow renewal, if they do it.
Also mom was a huge Gerard Butler fan she'd start giggling and going "GERARD BUTLER SAID MY NAME."
I've fantasized doing that for my theoretical wedding reception while doing a slow waltz...... and I want essentially the Met Gala for my wedding....everything's planned... now I need to find myself a wonderful man who can sing and is cool with my crazy wedding plans lol
This is the movie I have always been obsessed since a child. And as a child I was mad at Christine for not choosing the Phantom. For me what he did (grooming and controlling her) wasn't clicking, nor were the words of the songs. I remember it was around high school, when I was doing one of my annual rewatch of the movie that everything started to click. It clicked that the Phantom preyed on a vulnerable, grieving child, that what he felt wasn't love. It also clicked that the song "Point of no Return" was of technically lust and s*x
I think he helped the girl get over the loss of her father. She was an orphan and he was an outcast, this brought them closer.... He taught her to sing.... And everything was fine until the viscount appeared. The phantom loved her very much and made it clear in the end. Unfortunately, Christine didn't love him at all... And, probably, she was very disappointed to find out that her "angel of music" is just a deformed, sad, lonely person.
@@ingridmay66 I think she did love Erik, she just wanted her rich hansome childhood boyfriend Raoul
@@priestessmikokikyo77 Raoul was an idiot! If Raoul truly loved her, he wouldn't have used her as bait to try and kill the Phantom.I prefer the Phantom and he was so devoted to her. But I don't feel her love for him... She doesn't even try to comfort him or hug him when he cries…. She just stares at him and thinks what will happen now... Her indifference and coldness irritate me. The Phantom looked at her when she returned and there was hope she would stay with him. Only to end up that she gives him the ring. The ring that was supposed to, from the phantom's point of view, symbolize their love. I would call that the final insult rather than love or compassion.
@@ingridmay66 I still love Erik and Christine together. he deeply loved her yes christine "used" erik to get whatever she wanted. She abandoned him and that is just unspeakable. Raoul i cant stand him in any version of Phantom
@@priestessmikokikyo77 The viscount is the perfect prince with the perfect life. And he can get any girl. But the phantom's life was so sad and hard... He suffered at the hands of a freak show whilst Raoul lived in a mansion with everything. I would like to see Raoul in the phantom's place. I bet he wouldn't be so kind... He probably would have done the same as the Phantom. In this version, the phantom could find another love, better than Christine, and be happy at last..... It's a pity they didn't show what happened to him after the final lair.
I also think not enough people remember that the Phantom of the Opera from the original book was a Universal horror movie monster for a reason. This is a horror story. Part of Christine's terror is knowing that if and when he comes for her, she'll go, whether she really wants to or not. This is not a YA romantic triangle where both options are appealing, she wants to be with Raoul but knows from experience that she can't escape. "Can I betray the man who once inspired my voice? Will I become his prey? Do I have any choice?" And playing that up is *So much more fun*
The silent film is really great if people want to see another version. I think I this film does borrow some of it visually.
I think that’s a totally valid point, and a lot of people do forget that, but I also don’t want anyone to not know that the book is still very much ultimately about the the phantom learning the meaning of love/compassion. The phantom may be more of a monster in the book, but the complexity is still there. The madame Giry equivalent character in the book narrates the final chapters and asks the reader whether we should feel compassion for him, concluding that yes, we should, ending the book with something along the lines of, “Here was a man with a mind and heart that could have held the world, yet he had to content himself with a cellar, just because the he was ugly” (paraphrasing from memory).
Ngl, Emmy Rossum’s delivery of “I gave you my mind blindly” made me want to be a theatre major… Christine is often seen (by the other characters) as a soft spoken, wisp of a waif, but in that moment she is so strong. The “sing argument” Jonathan mentions, she’s strongly arguing with him or trying to persuade him not to harm Raoul, but just saying this line she shows her inner strength-the orphaned girl who put her trust in someone who genuinely betrayed her trust. And this is another Joel Schumacher direction because he said that the entire musical is sung, so being selective with a handful of lines that are not sung make them stand out and mean more.
Yes! I remember that moment and it gave me chills. She instantly redeemed any doubt I had about whether I liked this version with that one line.
You think you loved how Christine was in that one scene, your mind will be blown away by her inner strength in the absolutely amazing novel, "Phantom" by Susan Kay. I HIGHLY recommend this novel if you sincerely love this story and these characters.
@@TRONwuzhere82 I am almost to her part I’m just past Joseph bouquet’s death
It's so powerful, and I think one of Christine's most compelling character elements is how deeply she grieves. That alone should turn anyone against the idea of her being with the Phantom. He pretended to be the spirit of the person she loved most in the world, for YEARS. Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again is one of those musical theater songs that will bring me to tears every time.
Meh I always felt emmys performance was lackluster especially compared to a powerhouse like Sierra boggess
Say what you will about Gerard Butler’s singing, but when he softly hits that first high note in Music of the Night, and his voice melts into the french horns behind him, that was magical. One of my favorite music moments in film. However, it’s pretty clear that-between acting and singing-Joel wanted to prioritize the former.
What he sometimes lacks in singing, he makes up for in passion and acting. He's still my favorite.
Not to mention that Gerry is f*ing beautiful! XD
@@MsGlamLamb Truth.
He's very good at being demented characters on top of it. His performance in Law Abiding Citizen is superb.
@@MsGlamLamb I think that's probably why people wanted Christine to choose Erik because of Gerard Butler's portrayal of him was so great. I get it if they were, Gerard's performance is mesmerizing. Obviously bad relationship, but Gerard was outstanding in this film.
@@summerrose8110 very true! And the character is very alluring. When it was written (as a romantic character, not the original, from the book), we didn't talk about abusive behavior all that much. Now a days it's a different story.
The relationships in the book are even more problematic.
Also now you've said it Hugh Jackman as the Phantom is something strikes me as a real missed opportunity I wish I could see.
No way, Hugh Jackman was in "Les Misérables." And his voice is too soft for the Phantom. Gerard's roughness suits the tormented character very well.
@@ingridmay66 YES EXACTLY, Gerard's tone of voice so perfectly suits the character of the Phantom, i couldn't even describe how, but you did it for me
Interesting. In what way do you think they are more problematic in the book than in this grooming-filled film?
That one note when he screeches the "pit as dark as HEeeEEeElL!!!!" (Shudder)
@@welbeckmanor Have you read the book? In the book the Phantom is much more psychotic. He forces Christine to choose between him and the entire opera house. At that same time, he puts Raoul in a torture chamber. In the book, Raoul does believe in her more quickly and there’s a little less gaslighting, but there’s a lot of jealousy between him and the Phantom.
A thing I love is how in "Point of no return", Christine reveals the Phantom to the audience (tbf, in the stage show that is, where the Phantom wears a cloak and a hood, pretending more convincingly to be Piangi - even Christine only realizes who she is singing a duett with halfway through the song), but not until he uses Raoul's words of love towards her does she go as far as to tear off his mask too. I like to read that as a moment of Christine actually (FINALLY) getting mad at the Phantom for once, seeing his attempts of manipulation for what they are. After all he's done to her, manipulating her, stalking her, threatening her and her loved ones and going as far as murdering people when he doesn't get his way... he now also has the absolute GALL to use Raoul's words as his own, proving not only that he was there, stalking them, when Raoul first said them, but also that he seems to believe that it is mearly sweet words that won Christine over to Raoul and not Raoul showing genuine love to her. The Phantom, so used to manipulating people (including Christine) to get what he wants, can't even seem to imagine Christine to truly be in love with Raoul but mearly being "more successfully" manipulated by him and that using the same words might win her back. Yet by pulling off the mask, Christine proves to him in no uncertain terms that she sees through that this time. And that she won't take it anymore.
I adore that too!!!!
This, just all of this!!
Yeah in the 24th anniversary version they make it much clearer I think that Christine realizes the Phantom was there when Raul and her were plannung to run away and realized he was again stalking her, so that's why she disavows him like that.
After pulling his mask off, she immediately apologizes with her eyes, which the moment of, "why?", from Phantom(Erik), makes a little more heart wrenching. Christine, then at the end, sings the song with Raoul and looks back at Phantom. I hated that moment. I get that Erik was manipulating, but he did love Christine in the end.
@@kaylynnbuente4535 He loved her all his life but manipulated her because he didn't know any other way to get close to her. His situation was terrible and sad.
Not sure if you've done it, but I would love to see you discuss Westly and Buttercups relationship from the princess bride! There are definitely things they get right, but also some things that they would have to work through (not having any contact for 5 years and him being a pirate for that length of time, he would have changed a lot)
Tbf, most ppl dont rly watch Princess Bride for the main romance, it's just kinda the impetus that motivates the main plot to move forward. We watch PB for the adventure, the memes, and the great character acting. The bro bond Westley and Inigo form while trying to kill one another, Wallace Shaun being magnificent going "Inconceivable!", and of course "My name is Inigo Montoya...etc" The main romance is just kinda... there. Like its not too bad, not too great, you're kind of supposed to just accept that it's "True Love" and roll with it in order to get to the fun stuff.
Not only that but the incredible lengths to which Westley is willing to go on Buttercup's behalf -- battle a giant and a master swordsman, climb a tall cliff, dive into lightning sand, fight a giant rodent, endure torture, and even come back from the dead! Yes, she does make one or two sacrifices for him as well (such as when she agrees to go back to Humperdinck as long as he lets Westley go)...but really, he does far more for her than she ever does for him.
Omg princess bride would be amazing !
yesss!
I watch it for both. It would make a great Cinema Therapy piece!
I was a teenager when this came out and I remember my mom using it to explain real love vs possessive love and 13 year old me didn't understand fully but now I do and I carried that lesson through my dating life.
same, as a kid I would root for him, now he creeps me out lmao
I really love your profile name 🤍
Sounds like you did well in the mom-lottery!
Oh boy, complete 180 but this Phantom always reminds me of a math teacher I had that said she thought Gerard Butler looked handsome in the movie. It’s hard for me not to remember her while watching it because she had a stroke and couldn’t teach anymore.
My dad when this came out used it as “be nice to people because being ugly doesn’t mean be evil but if someone treats you like this, we’re getting rid of that real quick” but also “don’t date anybody because they all suck”
In the book (written by Gaston Laroux) we get to know more about his childhood trauma, how even his mother hated him. We also get to know that he was a murderer long before the opera, the chapters about his time in Iran is really disturbing.
Also he died so there was no way if she had a child it would be the phantom's
Hearing this sounds really interesting. What’s the book called?
@@Sweetcinnamonrollkittykitty Phantom of the Opera
@@Sweetcinnamonrollkittykitty lol
Never thought I'd see Phantom of the Opera on your channel! So excited to watch this! I was OBSESSED with Phantom when I was younger (not just this movie, but every version I could get my hands on) and even wrote an entire screenplay of my own based on the book when I was 10. 🤣
Agreed, I adore this musical, it's like Christmas has come early!
My password for all of my accounts was “Angelofmusic” for years hahah
Same here! I read and watched every fan creation and made some of my own. They are not exemplary relationships, but oh I love them so much. XD
When I was 19 me and my big sister took a trip to Toronto. We were able to get stand-by tickets for the show. The next day we got to tour the Theatre. The whole thing was a highlight.
- Cathy (&, accidently, Steve), Ottawa/Bytown/Pimisi
Same I still remember when I first listened to the tape in music class and fell in love instantly to the opening.
Watching the Phantom break down in the movie when he sends Christine and Raoul away is heartbreaking enough, but then you realise that he's convinced that he'll be alone forever because of his facial deformity. Christine made him feel less alone.
it's so frickin sad like omg stop making me emotional
Alone because of the facial deformity. NOT because he's a murderous psycho...
He's a total incel
I mean, yes, but also to Christine it was never about his face, it was his behaviour. Which interestingly, a lot of incels gripe about, they say they're too ugly to find a date or partner, but the problem is not their looks, it's their toxic views and behaviour that turns people away.
I don't remember ever wanting her to choose the phantom, but I did want him to be able to live his life.
Yep. It definitely was super unhealthy for him to try to get her to love him, but at the same time I still feel really sorry for him since he's clearly got no safe, loving relationships in his life and people always react to him in either fear or disgust and rage. Christine was a safe harbor because she actually treated him with kindness, no wonder he latched on so hard to the idea of loving her and being together forever. It probably felt like getting real food after years of crumbs. Obviously that isn't an excuse to try forcing her hand in marriage and scaring the crap out of her with the crazy behavior either, but I can see why he thought it might work if the opera house let him get away with so much and he was never taught healthy relationship behavior b/c he had literally no safe model to base his love off of.
Really, Christine deserves a healthy loving relationship, Raoul deserves to be served a restraining order and therapy, and Erik deserves to be served a restraining order and therapy AND serious medical care so he has a chance of one day getting his life sorted out and his views healthy enough to actually make a positive, normal relationship with anyone who ISN'T his safe spots like Madame Giry or Christine. But it's a film and a book so what can you do 🤷
Ohooo, this is where the fun begins! All I can say is as a teenager I was fascinated by the dynamic between Christine and The Phantom. Now, as an adult, I understand why she chose Raul.
And, of course, as every girl with a decent vocal range I dreamt of playing Christine since I first discovered this movie 😂
They had to change one of the songs since her range wasn’t broad enough to do the role as originally written.
@@Author.Noelle.Alexandria I know. I know waay too much about Phantom of The Opera in general. Help! 😂
I left a similar comment; younger me was obsessed with the mystery of Phantom. Now as an adult I get how Raul was the healthy relationship and she chose correctly
Me too
I totally disagree on Raoul. He bullied her into the Don Juan performance and we never see him treat her as truly equal to him.
His progression in Love Never Dies didn't surprise me at all.
I think the healthiest thing would have been for her to escape them both
This is why Ramin Karimloo will forever be the most amazing Phantom to ever grace the screen or stage. Man has the range needed to play The Phantom and you feel like you're ascending when he hits the money notes
Yeap, Ramin will forever be the most amazing Phantom on Broadway, but Gerard Butler will forever be the most amazing Phantom in the movie..... 😅
For screeen - absolutely, Ramin is the best, along with his Christine Sierra. For stage in general it should be more good quality records to compare. I heard many good things about other Phantoms, starting with Colm Wilkinson, Ramin's favourite. (I'm not talking about Michael Crawford because wasn't impressed by videos with him on youtube at all, not by voice, not by acting).
YES
And the emotion he puts into every song and scene is so moving. You feel his pain and sorrow. You’re scared when he becomes enraged. You feel sympathy when he’s pouring his soul out to Christine. He’s one of my favorite phantoms.
Like truly, you need a phantom who can give a raw human performance but at the same time he’s the angel of music who taught a child how to sing opera. He’s gotta have unreal pipes. Ramin is that phantom.
When Jonathon mentioned seeing the show in Sydney and the Phantom singing “music of the night” and “I thought I think I just got impregnated” I FELT that. When I saw Phantom live, during “music of the night” and “past the point” I thought the same thing 😂
That was me watching Peter Jöback in NYC as the Phantom in 2013. He's a Swedish pop star but hearing him do a Broadway musical live was such a treat. He was amazing.
Welcome to the world of every second k-pop fan
Truely amazing Sydeny production! I really hope to see it again in Melbourne if i can get there
I got to hear my high school crush singing “Music of the Night”. You can imagine my reaction as a high school drama kid.
I saw James Barbour on Broadway a few years ago and was left literally speechless, despite knowing every word and line.
The Phantom would be a really good subject for Villain Therapy. He obviously needs it, and it’d be interesting to see what Jonathan has to say about him as a patient.
Please, I'd love to see that so much
Would they do the same IP twice, though? I’d have preferred they did one with the stage show if they did do so, but they’re a film channel, so…
@@brxzbze They’ve done two different videos about Encanto, multiple about Star Wars, etc. So probably
@@hoodie2shoes273 Yeah, but again the same issue with the film/stage version. Still would love a video on the Phantom, though.
“A lot of the times, the monsters that we’re scared of are the ones we create by our lack of compassion.” That’s a quote to think about.
My favorite (character) reading of the Phantom is by Lindsay Ellis, in that POTO is not a story of star-crossed lovers separated by society but a coming-of-age story of a child stuck in a 50-year-old man's body and letting Christine go was him "growing up". Since then, I can no longer see Phantom's interactions with Christine as that of a courting lover, but that of a child trying to impress his mother (kiss notwithstanding).
The Phantom wants romantic love but he really needs familial love.
It's worth mentioning that in the book, part of the reason Erik was moved by the kiss was because his own mother never kissed him. Christine showed him the love and care that a mother should have had for her child.
Yeah, I think that part of him just wanted someone who would take care of him and show him the care he never received, as if he were a broken child. He was so nice at the end....
@@lmahu6627 Also, in the book she kissed his forehead, not his lips.
When Gerald was informed about that movie, he was sincere to the director and to Andrew Lloyd Webber about his singing abilities. He said 'I sang in a rock band, now that is a opera.. seriously am i really gonna do this?'. His rehearsal was Music of the Night and the point is that they loved him. They said that it is not gonna be easy we are going to do lots of work and exercise but you got this. So to see a actor with not so great singing experience and having the ability to make some steps further the Phantom's character and his singing abilities, for me it is just wow. And i am gonna be honest. The Phantom of the Opera is musical we can enjoy the great opera singers in musical theaters and see their singing talent. Gerald in this movie shows us with his well (after months )working voice the Phantom's emotional rollercoaster in every song. He played so damn well, he knew without hesitation that it may not go well with the singing but he tried so hard and the result was amazing. For me it is double the success because as a viewer i understand now his acting limits. From Phantom to 300 just wow, i do not know so many known well actors who choose to play in musicals. It is a risk.☺️
Thank you for analyzing this movie you were so great!!
It's wild that during filming, Emmy was only 17, while Patrick and Gerard were 30 and 34 respectively, yet they played her love interests!
I did not know that. Ew lol
She was cast when she was 16. If they weren’t on a film set, those two men would have been arrested for sexual assault of a minor for how they had to touch her. I’m truly disgusted that everyone involved was fine going along with this.
Oh - Oh no, I forgot about this and now you just re-triggered the memory of how young she actually was. Just...EWWWWWW-
@@Author.Noelle.Alexandria I mean, in most of europe the age of consent is 16. Not saying that it's weird, or even disgusting at times if the age difference is as big as it was here, but technically it's not illegal. So, by european standards, she is not considered a minor. Just saying
Historically, that was pretty accurate
I love Butler in this film, but Alan nails the problem with him as the Phantom. I will say, though, that 'Past the Point of No Return', especially the crescendo on the bridge, brings chills to my spine. He has this kind of raw, honest tone that's often missing from professional singers that really shines in that song.
He's a very good actor, I think it makes up for the shortcomings of him not being an Operatic singer
I like Butler a lot, but he's in a film with opportunity to get his singing right and do over if needed. On stage, like Ramin, there are no re-dos.
Past the Point of No Return was exquisite and breathtakingly sexy, Butler is perfect and does take my breath away
I used to love the original novel so much. Erik is a fascinating character. When his past is revealed, and that you learn that he became what he is because it was his only way of survival. The queen he served made him kill for her enjoyement. The king tried to have him murdered so he couldn't tell the secrets of the palace he build for them... The society always treated him like a monster so he ended up thinking he was one... Until Christine appeared in his life and he started thinking he could have his "happy ever after", since she was not seeing him as a monster but a heavenly creature.
The moral of the book was interesting: "Erik behave like a monster, but if the world treated him slightly better, maybe he would have turned better". If only there were more people who could see the good in him.
looking glass self
@Eliane R. Erik is very similar to Quasimodo. He was also abused and treated like a monster because of how he looked not just by society, but by Frollo. Until Esmeralda treated him with kindness and mercy and he felt for the first time like a human. At first he wanted a relationship with Esmeralda, but she doesn't owe him that also Quasimodo would've been an obsessed sociopath like Frollo if he went too far with her. I like them as friends way more, besides Phoebus treats Esmeralda like a human, like she is. Of course Quasimodo didn't kill anyone, so he's more likeable. And I love Adam from Beauty and the Beast because he actually DID make an effort to change his attitude towards Belle and showed her that he does have a heart. I get angry when people dismiss the film as "Stockholm syndrome" and ignore Adam's shift in demeanor.
@@summerrose8110 Totally. And IIRC Belle did a good job too holding him accountable and calling him out whenever he was acting out of line. She didn't let him get away with his behavior.
could you do the 25th anniversary as well? it’s not technically a movie, but sierra boggess’s christine is SO different and i think it makes the story feel very different. it could be a really cool discussion.
Ramin Karimloo’s phantom is incredible as well!
Yes! The movie is what got me into POTO but when I watched Ramin and Sierra and realized what the vocals should be like I was in love with this musical for the longest time.
I mostly liked the movie, but I only became obsessed with POTO once I watched the 25th anniversary version. The movie Christine did a good job, but I only started to love Christine’s character, when I watched Sierra Boggess’ incredible performance. She and Ramin Karimloo (and Hadley Fraser) made me listen to the album on repeat for days, while I didn’t even bother to listen to the movie ost 😅
@@flusel4949 I'm obsessed with Ramin Karimloo's and Sierra Boggess too 🤩🤩😍😍
Oh my goodness and Carlotta in that one! I love every single moment of it, her going all gooey over that ballet singer (role reversal, anybody?) and her whole Primadonna act, and goodness me, the costumes. She's the perfect Carlotta as far as I'm concerned.
And Raoul in that one is splendid, too. I like the 25th anniversary version better than the movie, I'm afraid. I guess that musical just belongs on stage.
Speaking of "Aslan!" I think a video on "The Chronicles of Narnia, the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe", would be awesome! Particularly analyzing the relationship between Peter and Edmund, or on the theme of forgiveness and redemption.
In both the books and movies, I say Edmund is easily the most interesting and complex out of the Pevensie siblings.
@@msk-qp6fn Lucy I’d my favorite!
@@bethany8734 Oh Lucy is my fave too, she's delightful!!
Yes a million times yes
I've asked them this many times, I really hope they do it at some point!
I always thought that the lyrics in Phantom clearly portray Raul as the good love interest and Phantom as the bad love interest because of its references of the words "light" and "dark". Phantom's lyrics tell Christine to "turn your face away from the garish light of day. Turn your thoughts away from cold, unfeeling light and listen to the music of the night." and to "open up your mind. Let your fantasies unwind in the darkness that you know you cannot fight." He is the embodiment of darkness and just as he's trying to lure Christine into the darkness, he is trying to lure her into loving him, but that isn't what Christine wants. Christine sings that, "All I want is freedom. A world with no more night." She later sings, "turn my head with talk of summertime." This further mentions her desire to be where she can bask in the light. Meanwhile, Raul sings of light. He sings, "no more talk of darkness... I'm here. Nothing can harm you... Let me be your freedom. Let daylight dry your tears... Let me be your shelter. Let me be your light." In the lyrics of the songs, it shows that Raul is the better love interest because he understands her and wants to give Christine what she wants, not what he wants to force on her. He is the embodiment of the light.
That is my favorite song and it is the perfect love song too.
Honestly I love Gerard as the phantom. His voice carries so much weight and intensity. Sure he wasn't a trained singer, but that makes it all the more impressive to me. It's so rough and edgy and carries the heaviness of his soul.
Yeah, I was also impressed by his talent and dedication to the role.. I love his rough and dangerous voice, because he sounds like a tormented man.👌 And his acting made me cry. 😊Unpopular opinion, although the singers have beautiful voices, but I don’t feel passion in a theatrical production.....
Yup, I was eating spaghetti when they started in on Butler's lack of range. My noodles fell with what Alan was saying. Butler is the reason why I watched this movie in the first place. I wasn't a POTO fan, I'm not a fan of Opera by any means and this style of film bores me immensely. But for me, Gerard Butler not only made it enjoyable but also made me love the film. I mean Emmy Rossum was great and has an absolutely beautiful voice, but she didn't make me like the movie. 😁
@@PinkSander phantom of the opera isnt a fucking opera
@@thepinkestpigglet7529 Sir, who pissed in your Wheaties this morning? Who hurt you? Who wronged you so egregiously that it elicited a response like that from you? Do better. I'm sure Jono and Allan would be tickled pink to know one of their followers acts like that in their comment section.
I agree - i loved the power yet simultaneous vulnerability in his voice. There was a sort of frustration that carried and fit the character perfectly. And ive had chorus teachers that weren’t amazing singers themselves - you don’t have to be to teach someone imo. He is a musical genius in his compositions and operas is how i took it. I know plenty of talented musicians who can’t sing for shit.
And @The Pinkest Piglet - its a play about operas, im sure thats what she meant
Also -
I dig this story because the Phantom's motives (not his actions) are highly sympathetic. His motives come from wanting to be loved despite his looks, which is pretty universal. Losing someone you're enamored with to someone else (whether they're better for the person or not) can also be pretty relatable. But I think the Phantom only experiences real love a couple of times here - he falls in love with her when she gives him back his mask, and his first real act of love is when he lets her go at the end.
I love that you point out the age difference in the actors and actress. In the original book, Christine is also very young, but Erik, the phantom, is even older. He’s old enough to be her grandfather and Raul is much closer in age. Readers also get to see Christine and Raul’s love develop as they explore the opera house.
I remember having only seen the movie and seeing the stage version, there is one little line change that makes SO much of a difference. Leading up to “All I Ask of You” before the rooftop, in the movie version Christine says “He’ll kill you, his eyes will find us there…” you being Raoul. But in the stage version she says “He’ll kill me.”
And it really should have hit earlier that phantom wasn’t a bad guy, but 16-year-old me needed to hear that to be like oh shit. Like he’s not just “romantically” 🤢 jealous, he is UNHEALTHY.
Gerald Butler does a bit too much sexy for the movie but it’s not his fault 😂
True. Disfigured, are you kidding me? That looked like a bad sunburn at worst; a society decades before OSHA and antibiotics (syphilis can do seriously nasty things to a human face) would have seen _a lot_ worse things.
I think they hired Gerard Butler because he'd just looked sexy AF in Dracula, and then couldn't bear uglying him up. Pity about it, it makes the whole fuss about his face a bit ridiculous.
In the book he looks like the silent movie, Lon Chany version, skeletal looking body, his whole face monstrous.
Yeah they could have made his face look a lot worse. I've always said, the good half of his face more than makes up for whatever went on with the other side 😂
My grandma tried to set me up with Patrick Wilson when they both lived in Tampa, FL about 20 years ago because she knew his father and knew we both liked musical theatre. Thank you for having such faith in me, Grandma. I would have been alright with that arranged marriage.
Haha Go Grandma
@@reikun86 Good Guy Grandma
Butler brought a great emotional performance to the role. At the end you feel his pain, and his lust turned to love for Christine.
I just felt the need to add that Erik is not only a musical genius, he is an architectural genius as well, which contributed to his bloody past actually and really started to mess his mind.
Also in the books he was a really good assassin too. In the movie they sing "keep your hand at the level of your eyes" bc his signature assassin move was a garrotte I believe (or something similar). It's been a while since I read it.
@@StanLeeFan12 The garrote thing is actually what he picked up from all the things he did for the Shah...who he made the mirror labyrinth for.....which was the inspiration for his hideouts and traps.
So true
@@StanLeeFan12 this is true
When I saw it on stage The Phantom was about seven feet tall (no joke I met him at the stage door) and Christine was about five foot flat and at a really emotional part of the movie when the Phantom was on his knees the man’s head was at the same level as hers. And that really helps show how overpowering the phantom is in comparison without the creepy age difference.
So I know why Madame Giry didn't speak up!!! The novel has a little bit where she explains herself, it's a little fuzzy but he basically promises her that he'll make her daughter Meg an Empress. She believes him and basically lets him do whatever based on that promise. They don't mention it in the film, I think?
It also wouldn't make sense, in the novel, she doesn't actually know who Erik is, that role goes to the Persian, instead she is more like Christine, sincerely and blindly believing in his "magic".
Never admit you are the one that opened the tigers cage...
For a brilliant satirical take on Phantom, and Opera in general, Terry Pratchett's "Maskerade" is an absolute must read!
I did read that book it is such a damn fun one to read. In fact a lot of Terry Pratchett books are really fun to read.
Love the 'Maskerade'! So full of fun yet has the sobering sight on show business, when you can be exceptionally talented but no more that a phantom of a 'star'.
Oh yes! One of my fave Discworld books
"he's lonely and he's persecuted, and a lot of people who grow possessive is because they feel they're entitled to love...and there's a difference between 'my story is sad' and 'now I get to be awful'" and THIS is exactly why I will never be a Snape apologist and why his love for Lily was actually obsession. I know you guys already did a video on Snape, but I'd love your take on Lily/Snape/James and why Lily would always choose James. Because there are a lot of parallels here
I was thinking Snape was the Phantom. Alan Rickman would have been a magnificent phantom.
@@LSSYLondon he would have!!
Snape was a mean person not (strictly) because he didn't get Lily, he was mean because he was a bullied and harassed kid who grew up internalizing all that anger and hate. It just also happens that his one ray of light ended up with his biggest tormentor which, you know, doesn't help either.
I think the difference is though that Snape lets Lilly go. He does resent James for it- though most of it is because the fact that James bullied him before taking his girl as the cherry on top. But he wasn't possessive of her, feel she owed him anything and didn't try to ruin her relationships. He was angry about being lonely and picked on, but he didn't feel he was owed anything from anyone because of it.
@@MsJubjubbird Yeah, I agree. I mean, I don't see his obsession with Lily as romantic, but the fact that he let her go and continued to protect her son even though he always just saw James in him makes him a very layered and therefore interesting character. He is still an awful person, though. I think what I can't forgive at all is that he was basically a Nazi and the reason he turned against Voldemort was not because he realised that his ideals were wrong, but because he went after Lily.
Jonathan exudes fanboy energy while breaking down "Point of no Return" and honestly, I love it. Don't worry, Jono. The song does it to us all.
I know right?! It’s awesome!!!
Am I the only person who love Gerard.B singing in the movie? I loved it because it does not sound manufactured, it sounds real and passionate.. Gerald if you see this I am a fan, I think you did excellent!
Same! You're not the only one who loves Gerard's singing. 👏👏👏👏
@@ingridmay66 👍
Agreed
What people neglect to talk about when they dunk on Gerard Butler's singing, is that Andrew Lloyd Webber was involved in the audition process, and ALW was one of the people who chose him *because* he had a rasp to his voice, and because he sounded different from Raoul (who, if I remember correctly, is actually a lyrical tenor [yes, I really loved the making of features].).
Honestly, he's exactly what I expect a guy who's been living underground for 20-ish years to sound like.
@@michaelawiseman7320 The fact ALW was involved means very little, he is not god. But also, not only is the phantom supposed to sound angeli, and know how to sing properly (hence why he can teach her in the first place) but also, one can sound much better without being classically trained, Ramin Karimloo, who would play the part only 4 years later was completely self-taught.
This movie version of the musical is quite underrated imo, not only is the "love" triangle and the difference between true love vs possessive lust incredibly well established (in comparison to some *cough* Twilight*cough* other similar stories) but it also managed to present Raoul as intelligent and carrying, Meg as a true friend and not just a side character, Mdm. Giry as incapable of seeing past the Phantom´s deformed appearance despite saving him when they were kids leading to her supporting his wrong behaviour, the "horror" of the Phantom coming from his behaviour more than his appearance, and Christine realising the situation rather quickly and waking out of her "teenage" phantasies to live and thrive in the beauties of the real world.
Not to mention the movie`s cinematography, set design, costumes, acting etc.
I know right?!!!
You know what's really fun? Watching this immediately after watching Lindsay Ellis' video about POTO. Chef's kiss.
Also cutting to Carlotta when Jono's throat decided to quit on him made me cackle.
Speaking of Aslan - I wouldn't mind seeing an episode on that. Particularly the arc of Edmund's betrayal and the dinamics of siblings. Right now the my most rough relationship in my family is with my sister. It'd be a neat episiode esecially considering the range of ages involved.
Yes- that would be fun to see!
Yes, that'd be informative to see. My sister is a ghosting PIA. 😆
I don't want to ruin CS Lewis for you, but The Chronicles of Narnia are basically an isekai anime featuring Jesus's fursona.
the movies did a good job of adding a sort of realism to the stories, about them as siblings, about them being suddenly swept into a strange land with a heavy responsibility on their heads, and the fact that they're all young children dealing with the fact that there is a war going on.
@@18Hongo lol, I don't think this is news to anyone, but sure, it is a conservative religious story with backwards stereotypes of men and women. Still a fun read, hated the movies thou
I think it’s more apparent in the stage version, but Christine absolutely thinks the phantom is a fatherly spirit. In “Wandering Child,” she says “Angel or FATHER, Friend or phantom?” And later on he chastised her and says “Too long you’ve wandered in winter, far from my FATHERING gaze.” As a kid I never caught that, but as an adult I can absolutely see how troubling this dynamic is.
The lyric is actually "Too long you've wandered in winter, far from my FAR-REACHING gaze."
Love that Johno went from "oop i see tongue 😳" to "just the tip 😜" in about 10 seconds
It’s a mark of how much I love both phantom of the opera and cinema therapy that I’m willing to put myself through 30 minutes of Gerard Butler’s singing for this
🤣 He needs to go to the ICU for those burns! 😂
@@AmaraJordanMusic Maybe just put a mask over it lol
In the book she does kiss him. But I think it’s on the cheek or forehead or something. It was the first time he’d felt compassion from another, as even his mother wouldn’t touch him. He did let her go after the kiss, but there was never anything sexual between them.
It's basically what kills him! He's so overwhelmed by that simple act of compassion that he becomes weak and dies within a few weeks or something like that!
Um yes there is love never dies her only child was the phantoms
Yes but they are talking about Gaston Leroux's version
@@Fanrasyfan Love Never Dies isn't canon though. Leroux's estate doesn't even acknowledge it.
@@isobelduncan is there a Leroux's estate? lol
19:32 They cut the line "He was bound to love you when he heard you sing," heavily implying that she's only lovable because he made her something to be loved. Even in his moment of heartbreak, he is trying to claim credit for her happiness and success.
One of my favourite parts in the show is the second Notes segment, in the Phantom’s letters, when he says ‘If pride will let her return to me…’ This is such a great example of him twisting the situation around to shift the blame onto Christine, and making it seem like it was her fault for ‘leaving’ him when she never even promised to stay. Like you said, he claims her achievements as his own (though obviously he still idealises her)
Nice analysis, but I've always personally thought that was Phantom referring to himself. When Christine first sang when she was younger, he thought he fell in love with her but it was actually an obsession.
@@brxzbze In the Phantom's defence, he was the one that taught her to sing in the first place. Yeah, taking complete credit for her achievements isn't right, but he deserves some of it.
It was with the flashback that I asked myself “Wait was Madame Giry in love with the Phantom when they met as children?” Because I think she might be. She’s protecting him, looking after him, she’s engaging in illegal activities for him, you don’t do that for someone you only pity. Obviously though The Phantom didn’t share those feelings but to stay in/be a part of his life she just continued to maintain the relationship they had. Then when The Phantom identified Christine as someTHING he wanted, Giry proceeded to facilitate that demand, as she always did, and if The Phantom’s demand also allows Giry to live vicariously through Christine, to finally experience The Phantom’s love and affection, so much the better. I’m probably wrong though. It was just a thought.
Interesting theory! I've loved this movie deeply for years and never thought about that.
This is the only way the relationship makes sense, but it makes you wonder why it didn’t become a more deep relationship with them.
@@sarasamaletdin4574 thank you
A lot of fan material pitches her in somewhat of a maternal role, but there are others that have romantic tension - it really depends on how much of an age gap you decide to give them and the characters work okay with both.
The original lyrics to one of the songs in Love Never Dies (the bad sequel musical) has Madame Giry say “I’ve been mother to [Phantom] and Christine as much as my daughter”, so that’s pretty explicitly on the maternal end lol. But that lyric was cut in later versions anyway (but not cut from my memory - it lives there rent-free…)
I think Antoinette Giry loves him but like a little brother and she admires him for his intelligence and many talents like music, magic, architecture etc and she also feels pity for him.
I do love that at the end it shows that the Phantom never stopped loving Christine but he respected her and Raoul's relationship.
I will say I am fascinated by the Phantom and Gerard Butler's performance especially the end when he's sitting by himself listening to the monkey always gets me so emotional like it's sooo sad (I know Christine made the right choice but it still gives me all the sad feels)
Doug Walker is a fool shitting on Gerard's performance. He's acting is super solid, this dude is phenomenal.
@@summerrose8110
They have problem with his singing, not his acting.
I adore the breakdown on how toxic the relationships are between characters. My only wish with the episode would be a further breakdown of Alan's critiques. I know the show is generally positive, but I'd love to see his thoughts on how they could improve things he alluded to like the editing and stagecraft. As a studying filmmaker, hearing a professional's opinions and examples would help tremendously in improving my work.
they might have some in the director's cut on their website. It will be posted on the 27th there, if you want to check it out.
the full director's cuts usually have more alan, he cuts himself out quite a lot!
Hoo boy, this is a tough one. I think what really gets me on Team Raoul is that, even if Erik had courted Christine properly, he's still SO much older than her. She met both Raoul and Erik when she was a child, and Raoul is much closer to her own age. I know an age difference doesn't immediately make for a bad relationship, but it's questionable, especially when one party wasn't of age when the friendship began. Add the power dynamic of Erik being responsible for Christine's rise to stardom, and like I said, it's not just him being the Opera Ghost that makes it messy.
Raoul IS her age. They are both 20. Phantom is nearly 50.
Raoul is 21, Christine is 20, and Erik is about ... people estimate from mid 40s to early 50s in the novel, and musical, but the film rreeally messes with the ages.
@@monsterenergypunk especially since the film Christine's actress was only 16 from what I'd heard
…actually…Christine is about 17, and Raul’s around 30 (literally 10 years older, especially in the book’s source material), and the Phantom is Ambiguous but no younger than 30 (if you assume Madam Giri was about 10 years older than the Phantom and roughly in her 40s-50s)
NEITHER. Neitherneitherneither.
(And in ALW’s Definitely Fanfic vs Adaption “Love Never Dies” it gets…worse. Rhaul’s predictably abusive, Erik is still Erik, and Meg has a mental breakdown turned “tOtALLY jEALoUSY” and murders Christine.)
@@Ladywizard 16 when cast, 17 during filming. With two 30-something male leads. Ick.
Gerard Butler is a great singer for a movie. He sounds rugged, vulnerable, and also gives some sex appeal. Doing a movie is completely different than doing a Broadway musical. You have the option to show intimacy and emotions by being able to whisper or softly sing versus belting out notes as you would on stage. I think they all did a fantastic job portraying what they needed to in the movie.
I completely agree with you!!!! I really enjoyed Butler's performance in the movie. Some people don't realize that Broadway is not the same as film. I love when musical movies use somewhat amateur singers. Professionals just seem false to me....Don't get me wrong, I like Ramin, Crawford and the other opera guys, but as Broadway actors, they would not have been brilliant for a movie.
I completely agree! Controversially I feel the opposite in regards to Jackman. Fantastic voice for stage but he has less subtly which I think you need in a movie. 👀
Agreed! The singing in this movie felt "real." Personally I hate the Broadway singing style because like you said it just seems false
Agreed. Hugh Jackman as the phantom would not have been as good, IMO.
No.
Lol sorry I just really think this is a weak excuse. Like I agree with the general point that stage and movie have different requirements and stylizations etc but at the end of the day… I am positive there was someone out there who could act, had the charisma and physical appeal and subtleties, and could also fucking sing. For most roles, I would be more willing to concede some vocal ability in favor of more of anything else required, but it’s really at the top of requirements for this character more than any other I can think of, because it is part of the actual text, acknowledged in-universe in such a way that it impacts the plot, that he had a bewitchingly beautiful voice and impressive (to a bunch of opera house employees!) command of music.
im shocked you didn't talk about how Christine wanted nothing to do with the police plot (after the note song) and how raoul refused her denial or to listen to her, pushed her, minimized her fears.
@@Anne-ny3bz In Twisted, there's also one bit of Raoul's that I think is particularly essential- "Don't think that I don't care... but every hope and every prayer rely on you now" something along those lines. He doesn't dismiss her fear out of hand. He acknowledges that the situation is horrifying, but assures her that this is something that she CAN do ("You said yourself, he was nothing but a man") while also pointing out that this plan may be their only chance to be free of Erik. He loves her and fears for her but he's also not allowing himself to succumb to that.
And, I think this Raoul would have run after Christine when she was abducted had he not been stuck up in a box seat, lol. What's he gonna do, yeet himself over the edge? He's not a stuntman.
This Bad Boy syndrome as a teenager till I turned 18 didn't really feel like something is wrong. So it makes sense for someone as young as Christine to not see the toxicity of the Phantom. I always read stories on Wattpad and I had fun reading them and then as I grew I started seeing the problematic nature of the Bad Boy Syndrome and how troubling the whole relationship and the message being conveyed is coupled with the Main Character who is not like the other girls and can fix that Bad Boy.
This!
I used to ship the heck out of Christine and Raoul when the movie came out - I was thirteen then. And up until maybe 18 I was reading a lot of fanfiction which, in the 00's, was mostly unhealthy relationships and teenage drama. And I was not just reading it - I was buying into that stuff! Seriously getting emotionally invested into fics titled, for example, "Hatred" (and no, I'm not joking, I wish I was; the title is very telling of the fic's contents and quality).
So indeed, it makes a lot of sense that a very young woman would buy into it, too. Mind you, this is not only that she doesn't have access to Internet and therapy; she was also brought up at a theatre, where drama is a huge part of life, both onstage and offstage. Of course she would never notice the red flags.
The Phantom is not a typical bad boy. He does bad things out of anger and self-defense. He has a reason for it, because society ruined his life. It's not his fault he was born deformed. As for Christine, she is not a victim. She's a demon.... little lying Delilah.... a little viper.... The Phantom was right about her.😆
@@Axiniana Hoo boy. Hatred feels like your typical wattpad story where the relationship will definitely be toxic. Buying into such stuff is scary.
I don't why our minds don't see it for what it is. Why did we ship a good girl fixing a bad boy in our teens??
Your right even though Christine didn't have Internet she had the theater her whole life and worse her guardian isn't warning again such toxic relationships. I am glad Christine realised it when she did and didn't fall into that trap.
@@ingridmay66 uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh well....that's some opinion.
Growing up I loved this film not just because I’m a musical theater lover but because the story drew me in. Yes the Phantom is a creepy stalker in a way but back as a teen I didn’t think much of it as I do as an adult. Honestly if Raol really wanted to protect Christine he would have taken her away from the opera house but he also respected her career
I'd really like a second part where you dig into Raoul.
Like, him sleeping outside her bedroom and she feels she needs to sneak past him because she can't trust him to respect her wish to visit her father's grave.
Raoul not dignifying her fears about the Phantom, like when he tries to pressure her into going public at the ball or when he bullies her into performing in Don Juan in hopes of catching the Phantom.
And how in that final confrontation he throws out "say you love him and my life is over".
Neither relationship seems very good for Christine to me.
while raoul and christine's relationship is much healthier, i still hate him because when she was literally telling him there is a man who is obsessed with me and he's killing people, raoul's like, "oh you silly little sausage, you're imagining things"
edit: IM NOT SAYING THAT SHE SHOULD HAVE BEEN WITH THE PHANTOM OMG I THOUGHT THAT WAS OBVIOUS
SHE JUST DESERVES BETTER IN ALL CASES
True, he did gaslight her a bit. That was unnecessary.
Christine deserved better!!!! Yes!!!!
A younger The Persian I like to joke 😂😂😂
What's with the angry edit? There are no comments about you saying she should have chosen the Phantom. LoL
@@carr0760 there was someone who did but it got filtered out i think
I don't know if I agree with that - Raoul clearly knows there is a murder going on (Buquet is obviously very dead), and Christine is rather telling him that the Phantom (who everyone thought was some sort of supernatural being) is real, that he can spy on them in a way that implies that he has magical abilities, and that he'll do it again.
Overall I don't think the scene is very clear and I get why it confuses people, but that's the kind of moment where I can tell Christine's part was written for Sarah Brightman, because she has a haunted Victorian girl quality to her where you constantly wonder whether she's quite right in the head.
I’ve thought on this a lot as growing up I was really interested in these kinds of stories (Phantom, Beauty and the Beast, Twilight, etc) People are so aggressively mean about teen girls and their interests, it’s just piled on all the time. So I was so into the idea of someone loving me intensely despite all of that (bonus points that the women in these stories tend to be pretty trait-less so it’s easy to self insert yourself). People were mean about my clothes, how I talked, my music, my friends, my personality just based on the fact I was a teen girl. I think it’s similar for moms, especially SAHM. I think that’s a big part of why these stories are so attractive to those demographics. It’s more than sex appeal or danger, I think it’s a response to how society treats them and helps make those women and girls more vulnerable to predators as well
Spot on!
I also wanted to look into the broader context of romance as a genre. Started reading the old classics from Victorian era, etc. A lot of women were in loveless marriages because families pushed their young daughters to marry a guy with money and status. These stories were those women's escapism. It was nice to sit and read about a bad boy intense-as-heck love story while hubby was overseeing his lands or whatever. But then you put the book down, knowing those books aren't reality. I think somewhere over the decades, women started to wonder why those stories were only stories and not real life. To have a good partner in life, you don't want the guys from the books either. That line got so blurry and even disappeared, and we no longer realized it was for entertainment rather than some kind of goal. This is just my theory, as I cannot tell what 17th and 18th century women felt or thought when reading those books. But even I did not realize it was a fantasy only until my late 20s.
This is what I experienced in my life. I am fat and ugly and was never paid much attention by men or by anyone. It has always been that way. I wanted to be whisked away by the bad boy and be loved. Then I learned those romances were a lie. Now, I am in my 30s and will live the rest of my life without love, because I am so drawn to the unhealthy dynamic that I must avoid it entirely. I still hate everything about myself, which is only going to draw in predators. Normal dudes fit for partnership are all taken by now, and I'm honestly still not great at judging character, and would most likely be entirely turned off by someone who would treat me correctly.
@@shroomyk You're deserving of love too! I'm sure you'll find someone who cares about you, try to focus on making more friends and forming a strong group, which I'm sure will seem very difficult, but it's a very important step. Also very interesting comments about old novels, I never would've thought about that despite being a big time fan of old novels.
@@shroomyk Don't be too hard on yourself.
I was told to dress down because of my curves and when I did, attracted even more creeps because they assumed I had low self-esteem. ....Gross men tend not to believe me when I tell them that experimental finding so it's a good test.
Another detail I noticed in the movie was the candelabras (i think that's what they're called). The first time the phantom takes her down to his holy-pneumonia-batmancave, they're all gold and held by golden arms that move the light with her.
After that they're just plain iron, wall-mounted, and there's cobwebs everywhere. Because she could see through the illusion then.
I loved this musical growing up. It's what made me decide to become a singer. I remember feeling so sorry for the phantom. I distinctly remember saying to my mom that I wished I could have shown him the love he needed.
I definitely didn't understand how controlling he was as a child and I definitely wouldn't run into a relationship with him as an adult, but I still feel the same pity and sadness for him that Kristine did.
Why does no one notice how controlling Raoul was? He wanted to capture the Phantom and ordered Christine to lure him in. 😆 The Phantom was just very jealous because he felt the competition. He was desperately in love and did not know how to keep his beloved.
@@ingridmay66 Honestly? Raoul just seems normal for the time he was born in. Probably nicer than many guys were actually. Either way, he's less controlling than the Phantom. He didn't try to kill people to force her into anything.
I will always love the way Gerard sings as the phantom. I know he doesn’t have the most amazing voice, but the emotion in his voice (as well as that Scottish gruffness) really draws me in
I can understand that
I went and saw The Phantom of the Opera in England a few years ago, and this incredible thing they did with props enhanced how creepy the moment was with Phantom watching Raoul and Christine. They had this lovely sculpture that was painted in a dark gold. And it was used in many scenes of the opera house and such, but when the Phantom sings “you will curse the day you did not do what the Phantom asked of you” they turned off all the lights and suddenly, you could see the pleasant angels of the sculpture had lights strung on their faces that you couldn’t see in the light of the stage, but then when they turned the face lights on and the house lights off, their faces glowed sinister and devilish.
It's worth noting that in the book the musical is based on the phantom actually uses some form of magic influence to seduce her. It's like the effect of drugging her - not just the kreeper vibes, actual manipulation of her mind....
If I remember correctly, it was a type of gas because it had a certain scent. I think it was even used on the Persian and Raoul at one point. 🤔
I haven't read the book, but I remember my eldest daughter did while in HS, and when I commented about how dark the movie is, my daughter informed me how much darker the book is!
He uses a type of gas to numb her senses so she's more "willing" to obey him, it has an exotic scent that Raoul catches on when he enters the dressing room
Emmy Rossum just totally nailed the musical numbers, especially "Think of me".
Problematic love triangle aside, this film cemented my love for musicals. I could care less about the plot and I don't find the phantom's obsession romantic but the music score for this especially the intro is so chef's kiss.
P.S. For those who don't know this is based on a novel, spoiler alert, both Raoul and the Erik sucks a lot more and Christine only chose Raoul bc he's the lesser of two evils. In fact this is one of the rarest cases where the film is better than the novel.
Edit: Film/Musical Madam Giry is actually a combination of 2 characters, Madam Giry and the Persian (who is novel only). The Persian is actually the one who is kind of Erik's guardian who knew him since childhood and applauded his genius and eventually turned against him when he turned for the worse, as for Madame Giry the reason why she's an accomplice bc in the novel the phantom prophesized that her daughter would become an empress or smth like that but in the film she has this weird fanaticism on the phantom's genius.
Yes yes yes!! In the book neither are good fits for Christine. Christine seriously deserves better but it was yee olden days and Christine needed to marry someone to take care of her 🙈🙄😑 and I am always pissed at The Persian erasure.
When I was a teenager I was alone in being on “team Raoul” as an adult I’m glad I could already sense the issues with Phantom and hope my old friends have also come around.
Join the club!
as a kid I rooted for the phantom so hard, obviously I realize the issues with their relationship now LMAOO
I’m team Christine. She can do better than either of them. Raoul is pretty, charming, and wealthy and that makes his flaws more forgivable. He is entitled, more subtly manipulative, jealous to the point of stalker-ish behavior and violence in some versions, and such a whiny immature kid (I mean he is a kid though...). So most of my opinion of him comes from the book and some of the older movies, they really made him a white knight in this movie. In the 25th anniversary musical I don’t think he actually has true romantic feelings for her until the dungeon when his life flashes before his eyes and Christine gives up her freedom for him. Puts shit into perspective 😆. It was all ego boosting and fantasy until then. I just don’t like that they downplay his problems to give her someone to end up with that doesn’t make us feel icky. Sorry I’m ranting now, I’m not arguing that phantom is a better choice, just that neither of them are good choices.And if we’re talking specifically about this movie Raoul > Literal murderer 🤷🏻♀️
I first saw this as a kid, and I rooted for Raoul! The phantom scared me and now I understand why.
Same!
As an adult, "Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again" made me so emotional. here was Christine pouring her heart out to her father's grave, her loneliness, her sorrows, her fears, and finding determination to keep going, to grow up and not be so reliant on others. and then imagine my abject disgust when the Phantom shows up at the end, singing about poor lonely little Christine it's okay I'm here now ladidaa - like, buddy, YOU'RE the problem!! there was also something that struck me about that song, where Christine alludes to how the Phantom found her when she was young, not long after she lost her father - and i realized the Phantom straight up _groomed_ her and took advantage of her vulnerable state. it always struck me as odd that people would ship them unironically (not even as like a "i like dark, messy ships" kind of way) and not pick up on that.
I want to thank you guys. Watching your channel gave me the courage to finally go seek out therapy. I am so glad I have finally taken this step for my mental health. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.
❤
I hope you have an amazing day and that you do what’s best for you ❤
🌻
Lovely breakdown guys thank you! Would you guys cover Kubo and the 2 strings one day? I’d love to see you talking about the story of Kubo’s journey, being made to grow up fast to survive and how that effects his confidence and self-trust. Just a suggestion, if you’re looking for one 🥰
I been saying this ever since I saw the movie but I adore Patrick Wilson's Raoul. In the plays Raoul usually has a strong loud voice, which is fine, but Patrick Wilson brings such a gentle earnest quality to his musical lines because his voice is much softer. Their version of "All I Ask of You" genuinely has brought me to tears multiple times because it sounds so sincere and leaves me feeling both warm and full but also incredibly lonely because I can't have it for myself(kind of like the Phantom, go figure xD).
Yes, I love that, too. Raoul soft boi makes just as much dramatic sense, given the specific narrative device his character serves as, if not more so.
I think Gerard butler was perfect for the part of the phantom. Most of the people who could hit all the notes perfectly were like Raul. They needed someone with rough edges. Someone to bring grit and some unstable mystery. It worked out well. Just imagine how blah the movie would be if the part of the phantom was played by a typical opera singer, another Raul. The casting was excellent, together they were able to tell a real story.
agreed. In the book the phantom taught himself how to sing, so IMO he might be a great tutor and composer, but doesn't have to be a perfect singer.
This is perfect timing considering the broadway show closing next year. Been waiting for this episode!❤ As a teen I didn't understand why Christine did not choose the phantom but now as an adult I completely agree with her choosing Raul. Also agree the singing is not the best but the acting and sets make up for that.
Dang, gotta go see it, quick.
What!?!? I’m so glad my Grammy took me to see it before she passed 😢😢 I hope someday they’ll run again so I can take my son
Wait whaaat??? For real? Oh man, I'll never get to see it ...
@@GabiBrooks There are some videos of the show, here. Maybe another company will do the show. I saw Cats in Montreal.
@@lefish5277 It closes on Feb 18, 2023 and I wish it wasn't true. I've only ever seen it on tour so really trying to see it in NYC. Also so sweet that you and your grandma went together as loved ones make it the best night.
I think making a video on The Last Unicorn might be fun! On one hand there's the beautiful, ethereal animation style and voice acting and on the other there's so much philosophical ideology to unpack especially toward the end when she loses her immortal indifference when she turns human and tries to stay with Prince Lir.
Thank you, Ali❣️
There's another ideological debate to unpack: whether or not one's life mission should absolutely preclude listening to longings that emerge along the way.
So I was a teenager when this movie came out and I remembered all these girls in my choir class were really into this movie. The romanticizing of their relationship really left an imprint on many little girls to probably go forward in life and be willing victims to all sorts of weirdness.
I just want to thank you guys for your insightful thoughts on this positive and negative. This musical saved me from growing depression when I was 12 and again as a movie at 17 to be more independent. I still went through my hard way lessons of realizing the Phantom guys out there need help, not romance but this is still a story, movie included, that’s a source of comfort to me and so many others. It’s finally nice to hear a couple of film lovers discuss this in a constructive way! After the critics mercilessly dumped on it there was no blind over gushing or pretension bashing, just mature and hilarious discussion that we love here 😅Thank you Jon for showing you can still love this film and see its flaws and thank you Alan for admitting to not being a fan really while still acknowledging what is great about it 😊
Thank you!! I never understood when fans of the movies and the Broadway show say that Christine should have chosen the Phantom because he’s sexy and lonely and I’m like “Um, no. he’s problematic??? He killed people when things don’t go his way, he’s super jealous he has anger issues, he uses blackmail. He manipulated a young impressionable woman since she was a child. How is he the better choice? Lol
Because people just see a sad character and think it's her job to.make him happy.
@@ChristineTheHippie Erik just needs therapy. And I disagree with the notion that he manipulated Madame Giry. He was abused while he shouldn't have killed people, although we shouldn't forget humans weren't kind to him either.
@@summerrose8110 I think people sometimes forget you can help empathy from someone but still acknowledge what they did is wrong.
In the movie it's pretty straightforward that Raoul is better and supposed to be the choice for Christine. It isn't as straightforward in the book, which is the source material, due to even Raoul being problematic and more depth given to Erik. I do agree Raoul is the better choice because he is not as a mess as Erik, but Raoul is just a lesser evil for the most part.
The musical/novel makes it clear that Erik didn't meet Christine until she was an adult. This child tutoring thing was added for the movie. And yeah, Erik needs help, but he doesn't go after kiddos.
My legit reaction when I saw this: "OHHHHH we are doing this! Heck yeah! ❤️"
I remember seeing this movie when I was in middle school, during my music summer school class. I was the only girl who saw all the red flags with both relationships. I talked to the teacher at the end of the class about all of the grooming behaviors and all of the toxicity. My teacher was very proud of me 😊
I just finished the book, the original translation from the 1900's. And honestly Raul is JUST as obsessive as the phantom in the book. Multiple times Christine tells Raul to leave her alone, and he doesn't. He hides in her dressing room. He follows her to the graveyard. He listens in at her door. And when she expresses her feelings for the phantom to Raul and how complicated it is Raul just straight up is like, "Well go be with him then!" and throws tantrums. I'm not saying the Phantom has a healthy love by any means. However in the movie, they portray Raul very differently as a protector and an unconditional love for Christine, but in the book, Raul is possessive, obsessive, and toxic. He wouldn't trap her in a dungeon, but he completely disregards her wishes for space and belittles her complicated feelings.
Raoul and Erik are equally toxic, Erik would keep her in his underground lair forever while Raoul would lock her in a gold cage. Being from high society, a marriage with Raoul would force her to leave her life as a professional singer behind and take on the role of Vicomtesse. A life with Erik and a life with Raoul are equally lonely and stunt her growth as a person. The game made by Mazm lets Christine make her own choices when she rejects Erik, either live with Raoul and you see them both living a happy life near the sea, or she decides to not stay with Raoul and discover the world by herself and let herself be who she wants to be. To me, Christine never really had a choice or even have the occasion to wonder what she really wanted because she was stuck between two toxic people who wanted to win her affection and she was forced to choose between these two forced choices.
There is actually a sequel called Love Never Dies that portrays exactly this. Raoul has forced Christine into becoming a perfect noble's wife and made her give up singing. Because he "won" against Erik, he developed a gambling problem that tanked their finances and sets up the plot of the opera as Erik has set up a show on Coney Island and, behind the mask of being the show's owner, offers to pay to have Christine sing there.
@@illyahrthebard3303 ah yes, the phanfiction that got published 😂
Not only that, but the movie is based on Andrew Lloyd Webber’s musical, which in turn is based on the novel.
And, yes, Love Never Dies is a must simply for the fact that it picks up where Phantom leaves off, and shows that Raoul and Christine’s marriage was just as toxic as the possibility of Christine getting with her groomer
I definitely agree. Raoul only helped “save her” because he wanted her to be as drawn to him as she was erik (which wasn’t even attraction more fear with moments of wonder and curiosity but I digress) like the same stalking habits and more child like tantrums when Raoul doesn’t get his way
BEAUTIFUL video! I remember joking with my dad about how the transition from “child” to “adult” included the transition from wishing Christine went with The Phantom to being happy that she went with Raoul. I absolutely adore this movie, the songs, the performances, everything about it, but you guys (as usual) NAILED IT with the relationship dynamic analysis. 😁