Excellent high level view of end times views, thank you. I was raised by baby Christians, saved during the 70s Jesus movement/revival and never had any deep theology to lean on. I'm SO grateful I was born to saved parents, but I've realized I must learn and truly understand an grow and live out my Faith. Both of your ministries, as well as ALL ministries you mentioned at the end, have been an incredible blessing. Praise God
Awesome! But don't get caught up in the false doctrine of Postmil. They have the millennium before the return of Christ but the Bible says antichrist rules in the Tribulation before the return. So postmils believe the antichrist was in 70ad. Who was the false prophet then and when did Jesus show up at 70ad? Postmil is false doctrine
I am a HUGE supporter of your ministry. I do have to share that what concerns me with this discussion is the lack of scripture being used to support any of these positions. There was SO much reference to the theologians that hold each position but we should not follow people, we follow Christ and the Word and there was nearly no reference to scripture to point to which position is most biblical. How do you discuss eschatology without consulting scripture?
There is a lot of scripture to support the position. Just briefly look up this perspective. I’m hoping they will do an in depth dive where I can follow them through the scriptures.
@@olegshishko oh yes! I am aware of where scripture stands on these issues. I am just disappointed they did not use scripture in this specific video ( especially given the specific topic ) to either provide support for/against each position. They only used people as examples. Saying things like " so-and-so holds to THIS position or so-and-so holds to THAT position." but not pointing to specific verses that defend or dispute each position is not wise in my opinion because it leads people to make decisions or form opinions based on WHO holds the position as opposed to what God has to say.
I read my Bible, and from what I have read Post Millennialism appears to be the least credible position. People need to stop listening to scholars and read their Bibles and do their own research.
Thanks for this episode. Even though I'm Amillennial, over the last 3 years I've come to love preaching and teaching from ministries that I now realise are all Postmillennial. Postmils like Tom Foord, Joel Webbon, & Jeff Durbin seem to preach and teach with a conviction that the gospel is powerful to convert people, and that Christianity can and should change society. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that a lot of churches here in Australia are Amillennial. When the "pandemic" happened in 2020, the vast majority of Australian churches did whatever the government said, including closing churches for long periods of time. At some stage, I'd like to look into the resources you recommended in the last couple of minutes of the video to study the Scriptures used to support Postmillennialism.
I wish there was more unity among the differing camps. We all believe Jesus is coming back in the future. We all believe we are commissioned to share the Gospel. We disagree on the timing relative to other events which may or may not even take place as we think. All the systems have short comings and I look forward to seeing Jesus surprise us with the real itinerary when he returns. I'm sure we will all be surprised much like his first coming.
That is my big problem with Pastor Joel. I wish he would see that escatology is non essential. I am concerned he is developing a cult of personality. This phenomenon happened at a church I attended and the church imploded.
Polycarp wrote on it way before Darby. If you are unaware, Polycarp is an apprentice (follower) of John the Revelator which means he probably heard the idea for a pre-tribulation rapture from John himself.
It would be nice to see a segment where the Historic (Puritan) Postmillennial view ["The Puritan Hope" by Iain Murray] is contrasted with the Postmillennial view held by many today (Wilson, Durbin, White). It appears that the modern "Postmillennialist" is really an optimistic Amillennialist.
Can you tell me a little more about the views of Iain Murray in the "The Puritan Hope"? I find myself fitting in none of their views as described, and I'm not sure their description does each position full service. Postmillenial = Already but not fully? I think the standard general belief held by premillenials would be "Already but not yet" when it comes to the Kingdom of God.
Hi, I've been amil for about 12 years. Can you recommend any book or video that discusses the main summarized points of difference between amil and post mil ? or at least a brief summary of the main scriptures used and their interpretation. The Late great planet earth version of post mil ha ha ha... teasing... but Thanks Studying Post Mil is on my do to list. I have a couple of books waiting on the shelf.
One thing I never hear discussed in any Post Mill proselytizing: how do you guys deal with Israel (Nation,ethnic, and land) in the end times and kingdom ?
The name dispensationalism is recent but the doctrine has always been there. Saying dispensationalism is new is like saying the doctrine of the Trinity came two hundreds years after the NT was written.
I am a 5 Point Calvinist. And from what I have read in the Bible pre-millennialism appears to be the most likely scenario. Post-millennialism and Amillennialism use too much of a metaphorical approach to scripture. Many of the prophecies in the old testament were LITERALLY fullfilled.
@sanders194539 agreed. I am also a five point Calvinist. Most reformed people don't realize where amil and postmil came from. The reformers got it from Augustin who got it from gnosticism and the Alexandrian school of thought who were influenced by the Greek pagans who were allegorizing their own religion.
I absolutely agree with some of what these guys are saying and absolutely disagree with other parts. I believe the Kingdom of God is already, and it is most influential when we understand the power for change that can come from the bottom up. but leaders matter too and I think we get the leaders we want too often and too often don't understand what we need, too. I like this understanding of a righteous leader, "A righteous leader is someone who can lead you in a direction you never would have wanted to go or been able to go left to your own devices, but when you get where they are leading, you found it was well worth the journey." I think we all need to awaken to our responsibility to follow the Holy Spirit's leadership in the Kingdom of God, no matter our position in social structures. I've seen amazing things happen all the way up to the top of an organization when the least in the organization obeys God's leadership. I disagree with their simple definitions of the different categories. As a person who would put myself firmly in the premillennial side of beliefs, I know I'm not alone in believing that the Kingdom of God is already here. From my point of view, we have a very important job of being the bride, finding the bride, and making the bride ready for the wedding day, under the leadership of Christ. The millennial reign is defined by Chapter 20 of Revelation as a period where Satan will be bound up and cast into the Abyss and unable to deceive the nations for the entire millennial reign while those who died in faith will reign on earth with Jesus. Satan will once again be released at the end of the millennia for a final rebellion. Look throughout history... can you find a millennia (however long that may represent) where no where in the entire world is Satan deceiving at least someone for an entire millennia? I am premillennial. I believe Christ's Kingdom is already and it is in me and it is in many through out the world and we are a real entity whose main job is to trust Jesus and find out who we are. I believe right now Christ sits on the Throne above all thrones, but that right now Satan is the ruler of the air (the worldly world). I believe we will overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony and by not loving our lives even to death and we have the millennial reign to look forward to and much much more and we have a very important job to do right now in His kingdom already.
How is a memorial to Christ via a temple system heresy anymore than communion is? This also ignores that the plain reading of the Bible says this. Even if it's wrong you can't call it heresy.
Really helpful video however one criticism is I wish there was more scripture in this discussion. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like premils use much more scripture.
Thanks guys. Interesting. So i'm an amil product of Steve Gregg's views. He is nothing like most of the pessimistic points you guys talk against. Do you know of other amil teachers who are more optimistic?
The truth is simple... Revelation 20 says that during the millennia Satan will be chained in the Abyss unable to deceive the nations until the end of the millennia. During that time, the saints will have already been resurrected and will rule and reign with Christ. What kinda complicates it, is the fact that Jesus already reigns on the throne above all thrones... but at this time, Satan is the ruler of this world. Can you say in the last 2000 years that there was a single millennia (whatever length of time that represents) when Satan wasn't deceiving anyone on the entire earth? More than than, how many resurrected saints have you seen in the flesh ruling and reigning with Christ? We haven't seen the millennial reign of Christ yet, though we can see His reign now, while we together with Him wait for our enemies to be made a footstool.
Can I ask why would "good" Christian people support the Republican Party (Trump) when you have an alternative in the Constitution Party whose platform (policies) are arguably more moral and family friendly than that of the GOP. I have the same issue with "good" Christians here in South Africa voting for our Democratic Alliance or official opposition to the ANC Like the Republican Party the Democratic Alliance in South Africa supports sodomy and abortion.
Agreed. Unfortunately most people cannot think principally and long term. The lesser evil keeps getting worse with each election. I didn’t vote Trump for both elections. He is biblically disqualified.
When you can face what the world is coming to honestly. You know it takes someone with a thick skin, guts, and a true desire to help to make a difference. The main difference Trump made in my understanding of the world is it corrected my view that the presidency is so weak a position, he's not that important, to that a person with backbone actually can make a huge difference through the position of President. Many countless people were awakened to the dark state of affairs only because they saw how ridiculously the media and deep state handled an outsider like Trump. Before Trump was elected, the deepstate could successfully be poo-pooed as a conspiracy theory... Now, anyone with a brain knows the deepstate is real and is probably more powerful than the President, though it is illegal for that to be that way.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Excellent intruduction not only to Postmilleniallism but to Eschatology in general.
Excellent high level view of end times views, thank you. I was raised by baby Christians, saved during the 70s Jesus movement/revival and never had any deep theology to lean on. I'm SO grateful I was born to saved parents, but I've realized I must learn and truly understand an grow and live out my Faith. Both of your ministries, as well as ALL ministries you mentioned at the end, have been an incredible blessing. Praise God
Awesome! But don't get caught up in the false doctrine of Postmil. They have the millennium before the return of Christ but the Bible says antichrist rules in the Tribulation before the return. So postmils believe the antichrist was in 70ad. Who was the false prophet then and when did Jesus show up at 70ad? Postmil is false doctrine
Two of my favorite reformed postmillennial Bible teachers, together. That was a treat. Thank you pastors. I am learning a lot from you.
Loved seeing Joel in your studio, Dale! Great discussion.
I am a HUGE supporter of your ministry. I do have to share that what concerns me with this discussion is the lack of scripture being used to support any of these positions. There was SO much reference to the theologians that hold each position but we should not follow people, we follow Christ and the Word and there was nearly no reference to scripture to point to which position is most biblical. How do you discuss eschatology without consulting scripture?
There is a lot of scripture to support the position. Just briefly look up this perspective. I’m hoping they will do an in depth dive where I can follow them through the scriptures.
@@olegshishko oh yes! I am aware of where scripture stands on these issues. I am just disappointed they did not use scripture in this specific video ( especially given the specific topic ) to either provide support for/against each position. They only used people as examples. Saying things like " so-and-so holds to THIS position or so-and-so holds to THAT position." but not pointing to specific verses that defend or dispute each position is not wise in my opinion because it leads people to make decisions or form opinions based on WHO holds the position as opposed to what God has to say.
Psalm 110
Watch Doug Wilson's videos on post-millennialism, he does nothing but quote Scripture to support his positions.
I read my Bible, and from what I have read Post Millennialism appears to be the least credible position. People need to stop listening to scholars and read their Bibles and do their own research.
Thanks for this episode. Even though I'm Amillennial, over the last 3 years I've come to love preaching and teaching from ministries that I now realise are all Postmillennial. Postmils like Tom Foord, Joel Webbon, & Jeff Durbin seem to preach and teach with a conviction that the gospel is powerful to convert people, and that Christianity can and should change society.
I don't know for sure, but I suspect that a lot of churches here in Australia are Amillennial. When the "pandemic" happened in 2020, the vast majority of Australian churches did whatever the government said, including closing churches for long periods of time.
At some stage, I'd like to look into the resources you recommended in the last couple of minutes of the video to study the Scriptures used to support Postmillennialism.
I wish there was more unity among the differing camps. We all believe Jesus is coming back in the future. We all believe we are commissioned to share the Gospel. We disagree on the timing relative to other events which may or may not even take place as we think. All the systems have short comings and I look forward to seeing Jesus surprise us with the real itinerary when he returns. I'm sure we will all be surprised much like his first coming.
That is my big problem with Pastor Joel. I wish he would see that escatology is non essential. I am concerned he is developing a cult of personality. This phenomenon happened at a church I attended and the church imploded.
Great informative discussion, Brothers! 🙏🏼❤️
fantastic video with great quality.
Great video guys!
Polycarp wrote on it way before Darby. If you are unaware, Polycarp is an apprentice (follower) of John the Revelator which means he probably heard the idea for a pre-tribulation rapture from John himself.
It's tradition that he was a disciple of John. No one knows for sure.
Also premillennialism has existed since the first century but Premillennial dispensationalism was created by Darby.
That is a myth.
@@sanders194539 lol you should read his writings first.
It would be nice to see a segment where the Historic (Puritan) Postmillennial view ["The Puritan Hope" by Iain Murray] is contrasted with the Postmillennial view held by many today (Wilson, Durbin, White). It appears that the modern "Postmillennialist" is really an optimistic Amillennialist.
Can you tell me a little more about the views of Iain Murray in the "The Puritan Hope"? I find myself fitting in none of their views as described, and I'm not sure their description does each position full service. Postmillenial = Already but not fully? I think the standard general belief held by premillenials would be "Already but not yet" when it comes to the Kingdom of God.
Awesome ! Sharing it out !
Great discussion
Good talk guys!!
Hi, I've been amil for about 12 years. Can you recommend any book or video that discusses the main summarized points of difference between amil and post mil ? or at least a brief summary of the main scriptures used and their interpretation. The Late great planet earth version of post mil ha ha ha... teasing... but Thanks
Studying Post Mil is on my do to list. I have a couple of books waiting on the shelf.
One thing I never hear discussed in any Post Mill proselytizing: how do you guys deal with Israel
(Nation,ethnic, and land) in the end times and kingdom ?
Have you checked out Johnny Enlows position on seven mountains. He would be good to interview:)
The name dispensationalism is recent but the doctrine has always been there. Saying dispensationalism is new is like saying the doctrine of the Trinity came two hundreds years after the NT was written.
I am a 5 Point Calvinist. And from what I have read in the Bible pre-millennialism appears to be the most likely scenario. Post-millennialism and Amillennialism use too much of a metaphorical approach to scripture. Many of the prophecies in the old testament were LITERALLY fullfilled.
@sanders194539 agreed. I am also a five point Calvinist. Most reformed people don't realize where amil and postmil came from. The reformers got it from Augustin who got it from gnosticism and the Alexandrian school of thought who were influenced by the Greek pagans who were allegorizing their own religion.
I absolutely agree with some of what these guys are saying and absolutely disagree with other parts. I believe the Kingdom of God is already, and it is most influential when we understand the power for change that can come from the bottom up. but leaders matter too and I think we get the leaders we want too often and too often don't understand what we need, too. I like this understanding of a righteous leader, "A righteous leader is someone who can lead you in a direction you never would have wanted to go or been able to go left to your own devices, but when you get where they are leading, you found it was well worth the journey." I think we all need to awaken to our responsibility to follow the Holy Spirit's leadership in the Kingdom of God, no matter our position in social structures. I've seen amazing things happen all the way up to the top of an organization when the least in the organization obeys God's leadership.
I disagree with their simple definitions of the different categories. As a person who would put myself firmly in the premillennial side of beliefs, I know I'm not alone in believing that the Kingdom of God is already here. From my point of view, we have a very important job of being the bride, finding the bride, and making the bride ready for the wedding day, under the leadership of Christ. The millennial reign is defined by Chapter 20 of Revelation as a period where Satan will be bound up and cast into the Abyss and unable to deceive the nations for the entire millennial reign while those who died in faith will reign on earth with Jesus. Satan will once again be released at the end of the millennia for a final rebellion. Look throughout history... can you find a millennia (however long that may represent) where no where in the entire world is Satan deceiving at least someone for an entire millennia? I am premillennial. I believe Christ's Kingdom is already and it is in me and it is in many through out the world and we are a real entity whose main job is to trust Jesus and find out who we are. I believe right now Christ sits on the Throne above all thrones, but that right now Satan is the ruler of the air (the worldly world). I believe we will overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony and by not loving our lives even to death and we have the millennial reign to look forward to and much much more and we have a very important job to do right now in His kingdom already.
How is a memorial to Christ via a temple system heresy anymore than communion is? This also ignores that the plain reading of the Bible says this. Even if it's wrong you can't call it heresy.
And they didn’t. They actually said the other eschatological thoughts are not heretical. 👍
Really helpful video however one criticism is I wish there was more scripture in this discussion. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like premils use much more scripture.
I would offer "Days of Vengeance" by David Chilton. It is very long, though. This conversation was definitely a flyover.
Thanks guys. Interesting. So i'm an amil product of Steve Gregg's views. He is nothing like most of the pessimistic points you guys talk against. Do you know of other amil teachers who are more optimistic?
The truth is simple... Revelation 20 says that during the millennia Satan will be chained in the Abyss unable to deceive the nations until the end of the millennia. During that time, the saints will have already been resurrected and will rule and reign with Christ.
What kinda complicates it, is the fact that Jesus already reigns on the throne above all thrones... but at this time, Satan is the ruler of this world. Can you say in the last 2000 years that there was a single millennia (whatever length of time that represents) when Satan wasn't deceiving anyone on the entire earth? More than than, how many resurrected saints have you seen in the flesh ruling and reigning with Christ? We haven't seen the millennial reign of Christ yet, though we can see His reign now, while we together with Him wait for our enemies to be made a footstool.
Can I ask why would "good" Christian people support the Republican Party (Trump) when you have an alternative in the Constitution Party whose platform (policies) are arguably more moral and family friendly than that of the GOP.
I have the same issue with "good" Christians here in South Africa voting for our Democratic Alliance or official opposition to the ANC
Like the Republican Party the Democratic Alliance in South Africa supports sodomy and abortion.
Agreed. Unfortunately most people cannot think principally and long term. The lesser evil keeps getting worse with each election. I didn’t vote Trump for both elections. He is biblically disqualified.
When you can face what the world is coming to honestly. You know it takes someone with a thick skin, guts, and a true desire to help to make a difference. The main difference Trump made in my understanding of the world is it corrected my view that the presidency is so weak a position, he's not that important, to that a person with backbone actually can make a huge difference through the position of President. Many countless people were awakened to the dark state of affairs only because they saw how ridiculously the media and deep state handled an outsider like Trump.
Before Trump was elected, the deepstate could successfully be poo-pooed as a conspiracy theory... Now, anyone with a brain knows the deepstate is real and is probably more powerful than the President, though it is illegal for that to be that way.
Replacement Theology was and is always about the Church replacing the Jews, and this is not Biblical.