Thx for having me and discussing our experience as tournament hosts! :) If the viewers have any questions about how to organize and so on, you can write me and we will try to help you! Also pls keep in mind that for us this is a mindset and cedh is not a bunch of cards but only the highest powered decks in a certain environment! :)
Hi ich wollte in naher Zukunft auch Mal beim eigenes Turnier veranstalten. Bis gerade eben hatte ich keine Ahnung wie ich ein Commander Turnier so hingenommen würde, das alle Spaß haben können. Die Liste sieht super aus. Kann man die irgendwo noch einsehen?
Im playing at this tournament every time it running for like a year now and while it seemed like it will be low power i was completely wrong Even with all these bans the powerlevel is still pretty high and having fast mana or other staple combos banned forces people to come up with new stuff. The best part is if you want a card added or unbanned you can just message dave or any of the other organizers about what card you want unbanned and why. If you can make a compelling argument and explain your reason they will vote and if it gets enough Votes it gets taken or added to the list. Alot of strategy's that seem unviable in cedh or even battlecruiser work here because of time and work put into the list. For example ive played: Unctus Combo, Syr Konrad Midrange, Arden Tana Hipster Stax and and the last tournament Necrobloom focused around abusing field of the dead and had really good success with all decks. The first tournaments went on for quite a bit longer then planned but for the last, i would say 3, tournaments they kinda perfected how everything runs and there are no big delays or anything anymore, its truly a blast to play there. Me and my friends are always looking forward to the next tournament to be announced so we can start brewing to the highest level under these limits and often try to come up with some unusual decks.
That One Ring ban sent a chill down my spine. But it makes sense. The list is aggressive but probably cuts down the number of games where you just throw up your hands because someone plays a degenerate card.
To remove fast mana all together is reasonable, it slows the game down and removes the one-sided super fast wins. So thats something a lot of "local" lists do. Easy 1-card combo commanders and efficient 2 -card combos are a problem too, so anything that can consistently win before turn 4 can be problematic if the opponents are not prepared to fight exactly against that kind of combo, and if they dont have the answer right there, they just lose. At turn 6+ anything goes, at that point any deck should be able to threaten the win, no matter what.
Fantastic concept, the banning of the most optomized cards forces diversity and deck building whose synergy and cohesion provide the basis of the decks power not necessary the power of individual "good stuff" cards. Unfortunately, it comes at the cost of removing combos and cards that are famous for being almost exclusively played in cEDH and are a tradition to the format. (Edit) I still would 100% want to try this banlist out.
Participated the first time last tournament and as a normally omega casual Commander player I had a lot of fun. Ended up placing pretty low but will be participating again in the future. If anything is is a nice "competitive" environment that actually gets me to try and build strong decks that win that don't need the same crypt/sol ring etc. in every deck no matter what commander/theme.
I am only 4 minutes into the video, but he talks about "just having fun" and "tournaments" simultanously. If you host a tournament of course people want to win on turn 2.
I totally agreee with him, I also Run tournaments at Mexico City, and also we used the leviatan list before the bans so more people can be able to enter the events
This list is waaaaay too big to be cEDH. I love cEDH, and it’s the only format I actually want to play, and to me this would NOT be fun at all. If I wanted to play without DT and fast mana, etc., I would go play standard or modern or whatever, which are lame formats, imo. Of course, to each playgroup their own, but I really, really hope WOTC doesn’t adopt this mindset, and if they do, I think my days of playing magic are done, and I’m not the only one who feels this way.
Wotc would never adopt this mindset bc it’s too aggressive and cuts everything expensive out and hurts their profits. However, you should be open to this kind of thing if you like cEDH because it’s just cedh where you get to have an actual say in deck construction. I thoroughly enjoy deck building and I also love cEDH, but current actual cEDH deck building is cookie cutter and play pattern is repetitive
This is completely OK at specific events if that area likes to play like that. Do not implement this for all of commander though. Stax/prison decks thrive in this environment. Also, with all fast mana banned, green elfball/land ramp becomes pushed by the nature of the format.
That's a great observation! Balancing an entire format for every possible playstyle is going to be a challenge for Wotc. The brackets are starting to make a little more sense to me now. They just have to figure out the placement of cards in brackets. Ideally, they cooperate with Moxfield in which they can implement a point-rankings/placement system per card, per deck, etc. I believe Moxfield has the tools for this.
Shock! Horror! A marginalized archetype returns to prominence and green gets to have the power it was supposed to be the best at (which also comes with all the counters it had normally).
I think you should suggest to ban the land instead. That would allow gitrog to be played but the true cEDH gitrog would not be legal. Maybe you can find a different cool gitrog combo.
i really like this banlist. my casual ghave deck only has an ancient tomb which i happened to crack out of a pack and a sol ring, because sol ring. actually green is strong format and a cedh version of ghave would probably be playable with such ban list. it is very close to basically the ban list we use in my play group high power casual tables, with the exception of ashaya chulane and karmic guide. i am surprised that ashnod's altar survived the ban hammer and phyrexian altar didn't especially with the amount of crazy combo lines that former can allow. also i always considered that cards like rhystic and mystic make the game worse, however the lack of fast mana probably makes it a lot fairer i suppose. based on the ban list and the goal for it to be at the fastest a turn 4 format makes sense.
The card in the banlist that surprises me is Involuntary Employment. I wonder what its specific consideration was, when cheaper things like Threaten are around. Is it just interaction with Zada or something...?
This card (also twisted fealty) can do too much with Stella Lee. We tried banning keay cards for certain commanders (clock of omens for magda) instead of banning the commander itself so people can still build around it.
Interesting to see; still goes against everything why I liked Commander in the first place: being able to play (almost) all the most powerful cards in the game. But to each their own.
I see all the good artifacts (expecially mana) e no exploration and/or burgeoning banned, for example. You're basically killing all colorless or artifact based decks and relegating ramp to green. It seems a very partial banlist. In my playgroup (high power, no cedh) colorless ramp is barely keeping an edge over landfall based deck after the bans and the real game starts at turn 3-4 and win are on turn 7-8 on average (so exaclty what you're trying to achieve). The real problem isn't the fast mana (enabler = more fun) but the ultra cheap/efficent payoffs/combos. Enabling more ramp to every deck and restricting "polarizing" payoffs you will experience even wider meta (and not just nerfed cedh)
I mean if the people who play under that list like it, then great. I personally like combo's (though I'm not a fan of them being super accessible due to a lot of rainbow mana [leading to decks playing too many efficient tutors] , fast mana and free protection) and dislike formats focussed too much on ramp->punch face, so this isn't for me.
You can definetely try it but you will run into some players who are not fluent in english and cards that are in german. But of course you are welcome here!@@crokeyza-team7257
If there was a separate ballista for cedh I would be all for this. Cedh is a format that prioritizes optimization and highly interactive playstyles. Standard edh is a long format game that is meant to be creative and unbound by a meta. If they were separated this would feel reasonable. But as long as they share the same list, this feels a bit targetted.
One of the reasons why I kinda stopped buying cards for no is that if WotC does something like that, I would quit. As far as battlecruisers go, that looks like World of Warships to me, not cedh - not even cedh content, mind you. If you are having fun, more power to you I guess (or less, whatever gets you going lol)
It's cool that you're community made a banlist to make it more fun for your community but to me this banlist sucks and way too long but commander should be what your local group wants and it still cool even though I think the list sucks
I am pretty sure I could get a couple of extra cards banned. Strip mine tho?! Why? For most people it is a budget waste land and i do not know a lot of combos with it.
If i'm understanding correctly this idea of a banlist is focused on "EDH" right? Because for cEDH is a huge downgrade in power level. Just my personal opinion.
Sundering Titan and Primordial are the kind of cards that are just on the regular banned list for very very questionable reasons. If anybody loops them or actually hard casts these, sure, they deserve to win, as there are countless way more efficient cards to play than these. Even unbanned people would hardly touch these, as they are not good cards in competitive lists.
casual is not the same as tournaments, in any sport there ar ewait times between brackets and matches. eeither you play casual or you play competitive, there is no in between.
If something turns out problematic it will get banned after the next tournament. That's how it's always been. If you have proper reasoning to unban something you can suggest an unban and they'll discuss it. He did mention like 20 times that it's a community driven banlist.
Not for me. Games too long, decks not consistant, some fun commanders banned, many fun combos banned. If that works for you then great but it's 100% not for me on many levels.
The last card you mentioned is to circumvent banning Stella Lee, which is popular and very strong. It is a different approach and we will see if it works or if its accepted better. :)
Sol ring is not the least bit questionable, if you want to ban fast mana. Just because the card is in every precon doesn’t mean it is a bad card. Sol ring is basically the same as mana crypt, except the first turn in play.
Thx for having me and discussing our experience as tournament hosts! :)
If the viewers have any questions about how to organize and so on, you can write me and we will try to help you!
Also pls keep in mind that for us this is a mindset and cedh is not a bunch of cards but only the highest powered decks in a certain environment! :)
Can you show us a few sample decks that have performed well?
Sehr cool Dave! Hat Neonramp zufälligerweise ein Archiv für die Tournierdecklisten? Und werdet ihr irgendwann auch Featurematches filmen?
Hi ich wollte in naher Zukunft auch Mal beim eigenes Turnier veranstalten. Bis gerade eben hatte ich keine Ahnung wie ich ein Commander Turnier so hingenommen würde, das alle Spaß haben können.
Die Liste sieht super aus. Kann man die irgendwo noch einsehen?
@@DoubleBeast The decklists are on Neonramps channel. There's the Moxfield link to their profile and it has all of them (and the banlist) in it!
@@DoubleBeast under the Moxfield channel there are the decks we cant link it here.
Im playing at this tournament every time it running for like a year now and while it seemed like it will be low power i was completely wrong
Even with all these bans the powerlevel is still pretty high and having fast mana or other staple combos banned forces people to come up with new stuff.
The best part is if you want a card added or unbanned you can just message dave or any of the other organizers about what card you want unbanned and why.
If you can make a compelling argument and explain your reason they will vote and if it gets enough Votes it gets taken or added to the list.
Alot of strategy's that seem unviable in cedh or even battlecruiser work here because of time and work put into the list.
For example ive played: Unctus Combo, Syr Konrad Midrange, Arden Tana Hipster Stax and and the last tournament Necrobloom focused around abusing field of the dead and had really good success with all decks.
The first tournaments went on for quite a bit longer then planned but for the last, i would say 3, tournaments they kinda perfected how everything runs and there are no big delays or anything anymore, its truly a blast to play there.
Me and my friends are always looking forward to the next tournament to be announced so we can start brewing to the highest level under these limits and often try to come up with some unusual decks.
That One Ring ban sent a chill down my spine. But it makes sense. The list is aggressive but probably cuts down the number of games where you just throw up your hands because someone plays a degenerate card.
To remove fast mana all together is reasonable, it slows the game down and removes the one-sided super fast wins.
So thats something a lot of "local" lists do.
Easy 1-card combo commanders and efficient 2 -card combos are a problem too, so anything that can consistently win before turn 4 can be problematic if the opponents are not prepared to fight exactly against that kind of combo, and if they dont have the answer right there, they just lose.
At turn 6+ anything goes, at that point any deck should be able to threaten the win, no matter what.
Fantastic concept, the banning of the most optomized cards forces diversity and deck building whose synergy and cohesion provide the basis of the decks power not necessary the power of individual "good stuff" cards.
Unfortunately, it comes at the cost of removing combos and cards that are famous for being almost exclusively played in cEDH and are a tradition to the format.
(Edit)
I still would 100% want to try this banlist out.
Participated the first time last tournament and as a normally omega casual Commander player I had a lot of fun. Ended up placing pretty low but will be participating again in the future. If anything is is a nice "competitive" environment that actually gets me to try and build strong decks that win that don't need the same crypt/sol ring etc. in every deck no matter what commander/theme.
I am only 4 minutes into the video, but he talks about "just having fun" and "tournaments" simultanously. If you host a tournament of course people want to win on turn 2.
Everytime he says the word "tournament", replace it with the word kitchen table. Feed your delusions !!!!
I totally agreee with him, I also Run tournaments at Mexico City, and also we used the leviatan list before the bans so more people can be able to enter the events
I am happy you wrote this.
This list is waaaaay too big to be cEDH. I love cEDH, and it’s the only format I actually want to play, and to me this would NOT be fun at all. If I wanted to play without DT and fast mana, etc., I would go play standard or modern or whatever, which are lame formats, imo. Of course, to each playgroup their own, but I really, really hope WOTC doesn’t adopt this mindset, and if they do, I think my days of playing magic are done, and I’m not the only one who feels this way.
Wotc would never adopt this mindset bc it’s too aggressive and cuts everything expensive out and hurts their profits.
However, you should be open to this kind of thing if you like cEDH because it’s just cedh where you get to have an actual say in deck construction. I thoroughly enjoy deck building and I also love cEDH, but current actual cEDH deck building is cookie cutter and play pattern is repetitive
This is completely OK at specific events if that area likes to play like that.
Do not implement this for all of commander though. Stax/prison decks thrive in this environment.
Also, with all fast mana banned, green elfball/land ramp becomes pushed by the nature of the format.
That's a great observation!
Balancing an entire format for every possible playstyle is going to be a challenge for Wotc. The brackets are starting to make a little more sense to me now. They just have to figure out the placement of cards in brackets.
Ideally, they cooperate with Moxfield in which they can implement a point-rankings/placement system per card, per deck, etc. I believe Moxfield has the tools for this.
Shock! Horror! A marginalized archetype returns to prominence and green gets to have the power it was supposed to be the best at (which also comes with all the counters it had normally).
This seems like a good "Bracket 4" list. Send it to Wizards!
My zada deck would rein supreme in this format
Oh yeah im the one that always nags them about unbanning gitrog since its my boy
I think you should suggest to ban the land instead. That would allow gitrog to be played but the true cEDH gitrog would not be legal. Maybe you can find a different cool gitrog combo.
I would probably build some kind of muldrotha board control deck in this meta
i really like this banlist. my casual ghave deck only has an ancient tomb which i happened to crack out of a pack and a sol ring, because sol ring. actually green is strong format and a cedh version of ghave would probably be playable with such ban list.
it is very close to basically the ban list we use in my play group high power casual tables, with the exception of ashaya chulane and karmic guide.
i am surprised that ashnod's altar survived the ban hammer and phyrexian altar didn't especially with the amount of crazy combo lines that former can allow.
also i always considered that cards like rhystic and mystic make the game worse, however the lack of fast mana probably makes it a lot fairer i suppose. based on the ban list and the goal for it to be at the fastest a turn 4 format makes sense.
This is banlist is a huge w. It actually gives people who want to play at the highest level a fun, diverse , and accessible way to play cEDH
In this enviroment Tayam thrives. He staxes them to pieces
Looks fun!
this is basically what the RC was supposed to do a decade ago...
It's an interesting apporach and I think that if you are going this way, more cards should be here, such as Tymna
I like this. I think it could be fun even if my favorite commander (gitrog) is banned
I'm pretty certain that most EDH tournaments are going to have their own ban lists too
There is a bih chance for that. But it depends. I think some will stay.
The card in the banlist that surprises me is Involuntary Employment. I wonder what its specific consideration was, when cheaper things like Threaten are around. Is it just interaction with Zada or something...?
This card (also twisted fealty) can do too much with Stella Lee. We tried banning keay cards for certain commanders (clock of omens for magda) instead of banning the commander itself so people can still build around it.
@@neonramp That's interesting! Thank you very much for the reply!
Interesting to see; still goes against everything why I liked Commander in the first place: being able to play (almost) all the most powerful cards in the game. But to each their own.
I can't believe someone banned FREAKING NARU MEHA
The Chin Queen cannot be contained lol
I despise this list. WAY too aggressive. I mean, you banned Gemstone Caverns?! Why!? So that Player 1 has an even bigger advantage?
I see all the good artifacts (expecially mana) e no exploration and/or burgeoning banned, for example. You're basically killing all colorless or artifact based decks and relegating ramp to green. It seems a very partial banlist.
In my playgroup (high power, no cedh) colorless ramp is barely keeping an edge over landfall based deck after the bans and the real game starts at turn 3-4 and win are on turn 7-8 on average (so exaclty what you're trying to achieve).
The real problem isn't the fast mana (enabler = more fun) but the ultra cheap/efficent payoffs/combos.
Enabling more ramp to every deck and restricting "polarizing" payoffs you will experience even wider meta (and not just nerfed cedh)
In this format I will play Magda or Winota. It's almost all forbidden to play something more.
These bans are worst than normal commander might as well play a land per turn.
this just seems like what “high power” is… if this came to cEDH i’d probably just stop playing it all together
I mean if the people who play under that list like it, then great. I personally like combo's (though I'm not a fan of them being super accessible due to a lot of rainbow mana [leading to decks playing too many efficient tutors] , fast mana and free protection) and dislike formats focussed too much on ramp->punch face, so this isn't for me.
Send this to blizzard. They can use it as a starting point for the list of cards that are in bracket 3 and 4
How do I send it to them? Also how do I make it standout in the millions of things sent to them?
Is fast mana really that problematic in Hearthstone?
@@cedhtvI guess the best way could be to try and let some community members know who will likely become part of the commander format panel.
@@Shamast3😂😂😂
Ayo do you guys play in english. I would love to bring my cedh atraxa, praetors voice deck. [I loose mox diamond and chrome mox]
It is a german local tournament.
@@cedhtv yea i live in france i could go there, but i was asking if they played in the english language
You can definetely try it but you will run into some players who are not fluent in english and cards that are in german. But of course you are welcome here!@@crokeyza-team7257
@@crokeyza-team7257 we mostly play in german but most of the community members speak english
If there was a separate ballista for cedh I would be all for this. Cedh is a format that prioritizes optimization and highly interactive playstyles.
Standard edh is a long format game that is meant to be creative and unbound by a meta.
If they were separated this would feel reasonable. But as long as they share the same list, this feels a bit targetted.
West Germany is a promising start.
Germany is no longer divided and there's basically no reason to mention it, it's just awkward.
It's cool that a local scene can thrive with a ban list like this but as a cedh player, no thanks lol.
It is not for everyone.
One of the reasons why I kinda stopped buying cards for no is that if WotC does something like that, I would quit. As far as battlecruisers go, that looks like World of Warships to me, not cedh - not even cedh content, mind you.
If you are having fun, more power to you I guess (or less, whatever gets you going lol)
That banlist is way too big
It’s pretty small
yeah its nothing there are literally thousends of card out there...
He wants to play casual edh lol
It's cool that you're community made a banlist to make it more fun for your community but to me this banlist sucks and way too long but commander should be what your local group wants and it still cool even though I think the list sucks
I am pretty sure I could get a couple of extra cards banned. Strip mine tho?! Why? For most people it is a budget waste land and i do not know a lot of combos with it.
It kills Basics i think thats the point.
If i'm understanding correctly this idea of a banlist is focused on "EDH" right? Because for cEDH is a huge downgrade in power level. Just my personal opinion.
Sundering Titan and Primordial are the kind of cards that are just on the regular banned list for very very questionable reasons.
If anybody loops them or actually hard casts these, sure, they deserve to win, as there are countless way more efficient cards to play than these.
Even unbanned people would hardly touch these, as they are not good cards in competitive lists.
casual is not the same as tournaments, in any sport there ar ewait times between brackets and matches. eeither you play casual or you play competitive, there is no in between.
What a terrible banlist 😂😂😂😂😂😂
What I find problematic is that some really competitive decks aren't even touched. I would 100% play Madga with this bans. She is literally untouched
i go to this tournament on the regular and yes a friend actually won with magda, after his win clock of omen got added to the list.
Clock of omens is banned
@@SheriffBaiken oh. That makes things harder. There are other wincons in Magda, but they require 10 treasures If I recall correctly
If something turns out problematic it will get banned after the next tournament. That's how it's always been. If you have proper reasoning to unban something you can suggest an unban and they'll discuss it. He did mention like 20 times that it's a community driven banlist.
@@orion6997 I just hope that not every deck that wins a tournament is named problematic
Sorry this is terrible. Why is orvar banned when it isnt even of the database anymore?
Yeah no thanks
This is a terrible idea
Banlists need to be central managed in other to keep joining in accessible
Horrible ban list
Not for me. Games too long, decks not consistant, some fun commanders banned, many fun combos banned. If that works for you then great but it's 100% not for me on many levels.
I’m not a fan of this trend
These "bans" are shit xD 😂
All bans are.
*These not 'This'
@@voluntarism335 Ty dude, my English is shit too xD
@@mrplajos4362 I also disagree
TIME WARP?! KIKI?!!
SOL RING?!?!?!
Disgracefull.
INVOLUNTARY EMPLOYMENT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Jesus, seriously, wtf
The last card you mentioned is to circumvent banning Stella Lee, which is popular and very strong. It is a different approach and we will see if it works or if its accepted better. :)
Sol ring is not the least bit questionable, if you want to ban fast mana. Just because the card is in every precon doesn’t mean it is a bad card. Sol ring is basically the same as mana crypt, except the first turn in play.
Ban all untapped lands next🤒
thank god this guy is not in charge of the banlist. this would kill the format.
No this is just thier own thing. They never planned more then that. They even play the normall cEDH as we not it aswell on different days.
>Humility
Lmfao