Many, many, many years ago a friend and myself were fishing in the middle of nowhere Montana. We had been on this little beaver pond for a few hours and hadn't caught anything, when a small football size grizzly cub emerged from the underbrush across the pond. Then a second cub emerged, shortly followed by mama (who was btw much larger than a football). As we were trying to slowly back out of the area mama took great offense to our presence and charged (if it was a bluff, it worked). My friend was of Lakota heritage and screamed something at the charging bear in what I presumed to be the Lakota language. When the bear stopped, corralled her young ones and slowly exited as fast as they appeared. Standing there dumbfounded and amazed to be alive, I asked him What the #$%^ he said to her. He simply looked at me, grinned and replied, "You just have to know how to talk to a lady!"
A 10mm (.4005" caliber) bullet going 1200fps is going to do far more internal damage than a 9mm (.357 caliber) going 1100 simply because of bullet diameter. Both of you shot better with the 10mm than the 9mm. I have the same 10mm you used in the test. The design makes handling the 10mm recoil, very very easy to handle and stay on target. 15 +1 in 10 mm vs 17 + 1 in the 9. Two extra rounds isn't really a factor. BTW I am still waiting on the 25 Creedmoor episode. Edit: THANK YOU for using the same gun, with the same type ammunition for the testing. Huge props for that!.
Absolutely agree with you there. They both fired the same pistols. And the comparison in this case was otherwise nearly identical. Follow Up, with the comments they made about just how similar this 9mm is to this 10mm, in hand, Which they explained is not true for all 9 vs 10 comparisons. Similar perhaps, but not nearly identical? Its definitely a difference we have seen in many other comparison episodes. Here and on other channels, comparing rifles for accuracy, but one fires a 6.5 creedmoor or a 223 Remington, and the other fires a 308 or a 300 Win Mag. Its just, We'll the scientist in me wants best comparisons... For best data.
My brother in Christ, a difference in 1mm diameter is negligible to a 1000-1500lbs animal. Expansion is more important but utilization of total kinetic energy and shot placement once again is the main factor
I would have really liked to see the .45ACP version of this load tested. More weight, more frontal area, but with less velocity. I was very surprised how well the 9mm did. Keep up the good work guys.
Aye, I use 9mm 158 grain FMJ for cougar/bear defense. Not hard cast but heavier and wayyyyy cheaper/more available than that buffalo bore stuff. I'm sure it penetrates less but does it penetrate the skull all the way to the spine?
Would like to see the 40 S&W tested identically to the 9mm and 10mm. Frontal area matters when shooting animals. The 9mm surprised me with it’s performance. Enjoyed this test!
Wow! Wonderful! Great job Gentlemen!! Two suggestions to add to your the great double header you already have: 1) Different brands of ammo/bullets,aka full comparison. 2) Standard factory sites vs the different Vortex sights available.
Bullet construction is indeed crucial, far more important than just caliber. I mentioned in one of my videos that a guy shot a bear in the backbone with a .375 H&H. The bullet fragmented and failed to inflict enough damage onto the spine to incapacitate it. The bear mauled him a bit but he survived.
FYI, I almost bought a M&P 10mm for bear defense. The early guns have a issue with dropping the mags and FTF with the bear loads. A few people did a deep dive on this and found it was the magazine design. The larger projectiles contact the mag release catch and don't allow it to function properly. S&W installed stronger springs on the newer guns to "fix" this issue instead of reworking the mag so the bullets don't make contact with the release. They went with the cheap fix instead of changing the tooling to fix a magazine design flaw. Many think that as the springs break in, the FTF and dropping magazine problems will return. That wasn't something I wanted in the back of my mind while out in the woods. I'm currently looking at a G40 or XDM to replace my Redhawk in 44 mag.
Thanks for doing this episode its one of your guys best that you have done. Keep them coming. Really goad you guys dove into the hard hitting buffalo bore 9mm big game bullet
NO. A blade that size that could in theory engage a bear effectively is going to weight about 1 pound. You can carry a 5 shot 357 revolver for the same weight. A blade as a backup to a gun instead of another gun is stoooopid.
29:32 I think that's really key in this scenario. Because in a hunting season, perhaps a Muzzle Load. Perhaps an Archery ticket/season. You hope to not require your emergency, defense pistol at all. You might target practice, at camp, to stay sharp. But. Ideally, you'll have bow in hand during your trip and won't need to resort to the pistol. But if it came to it. You have it, you feel confident with it. You have enough access to it, when you need it, (it's not packed)but it's not obstructing your hike, your spotting, or your other shots.
Was very surprised by these results, unfortunately here in Communist Canada as a hunter, I cannot carry a handgun for emergency back up. If I could my choice would be a 454 casull, but of these two; 10mm.
While we have our own problems, Canada should have not fought us in 1812 to 1815 and joined us against the Crown. Maybe they would not be in the same poor shape they are in today. Next revolution don't fight us so hard lol.
@@anonymousf454 well you are out of luck on comparison to modern cartridges from me, it would take all day to read my book on that, and sadly I don’t have the stock available to me to do a video, however these guys probably do so yes they should get on it. However I can quickly divulge that while there is more than meets the eye on these old cartridges especially in todays world with bullet designs, they do fall prey to the simplistic difference machine, and that is they all adhere to the old way of doing things. That is they all find improved ballistics by adding a longer column of powder and a bigger projectile out front. There’s some nuance there however, such as the most common loads of 357 being fairly light bullets compared to the 45 Colt they will travel at a good speed and can get more penetration under the right circumstances. These are also all among a lime called companion cartridges, basically something you could carry both a six gun and a carbine chambered for the same round and simplify things a great deal. Each of these also has a companion or companions that use the same bullet and either a longer or shorter case with them for either easier to shoot or more powerful loads.
@@CowboyHunterPodcastThat is a really good argument for the revolver as opposed to the two semi auto pistols. Practice with 38 or 44 special, pack 357 or 44 magnum for use.
Just yesterday shot 40 S&W 180g on my new Glock 20 G4, shot my best groups of the day. Was also shooting 115g with my Glock 26. Not surprised had a much better grip, better control with the Glock 20. Literally made me re-consider using 10mm with 40 S&W for home defense.
And simulated bone vs actual bone. Results could be very different in real life. Idk what the synthetic material is made of, but real bone is very dense, extremely strong, and very hard.
@@MylesKillis Yea, I thought it was a really cool test, but I just don't know if it's an accurate representation of how tough a real bear skull is. And I would not want to be the hiker, hunter, fisherman, or outdoorsman who finds out my 9mm didn't perform like on the podcast....lol
Nice video series guys! How about doing the same thing for wheel guns in 357 and 44 mag. These both have option to run special loads for practice. Then another video comparing your observations between the semiauto and the wheel guns.
This has probably been pointed out, and I am certain that you both know this, but a Gen 4/5 backstrap change can mitigate this to a degree in the 9 vs. 10 Glock frame. Glocks are a basically 40 year old design, and the Smith is certainly is more ergonomic, I don't find the Glock bad at all. I have not only a Glock 20 Gen4 but also the M&P with the 4.6 barrel. I did put a KKM barrel in the Glock for a fully supported chamber and Ballard cut rifling. I would bet my life on this package. As to the M&P, I found it to be under sprung, especially in the magazine spring. Wolf extra power springs seem to have remedied the feeding issue it has in stock form, In all fairness, I did buy a very early production example. And I am not yet in a place where I would trust it in the same way I do with the Glock. That said, I agree that the M&P platform gives you great value for money and certainly has the potential to be just as reliable. BTW, my preferred "Bear" load is the 220 cast load from Underwood. For more social work, it is the 135gr Nosler jhp also from Underwood. Defensive ammo cost is not and should not be a consideration. Stop at Starbucks less. What is your life worth?
“Social work”, LOL. I have seen enough factory ammo malfunction that I only fully trust my own reloads. I am not yet reloading 10mm, thus also use Underwood 220s. Play or compete with whatever, when it comes to wanting to survive, we always reach for the Glock, don’t we?!
One thing worth considering. 9mm requires you to go out of your way to find loads specifically for bear defense. Many 10mm loads are likely to be found as adequate...
Another point of consideration. I'm not sure a 9mm pistol is legal anywhere for taking game where as a 10mm can be. In the ol' pack/rifle off squatting by a tree and a deer steps out at 25 yards. A 10mm can bring venison home, ethically and legally whereas a 9mm cannot.
That’s a potentially interesting point that I hadn’t considered. I checked and 10mm does not meet my states for the overall length requirement for handgun cartridges. 1.5” is the minimum, which would make all readily accessible autos illegal for taking big game. 38 special would be about the shortest. Dangit.
@phild9813 for sure it's a very state by state thing. But for me here in CO you can (admittedly gotta be picky and buy the right stuff) meet the minimum requirements. Here the wardens will even ticket you for putting down wounded game with a non-legal pistol. I imagine that's not unique to here. Having something that meets those requirements, whatever they may be, seems very sensible to me.
@phild9813 yes a hot 10mm or 357 mag can meet the requirements. Some at sea level and more if you calculate adjusting for elevation. The underwood XTP loadings in 180 and 200gr
Loved this one! Very encouraging to see the 9mm do so well. I already have a 9 (like most people I’d imagine) So instead of spending hundreds of dollars on a new gun it sounds more effective to put that money towards some quality training
Remember, this was not real bear bone. I'm not saying it won't, but this is not conclusive if 9mm is adequate. Don't get squashed in a submarine because you thought it was good enough.
9:25 for context my 44 ruger super Blackhawk shooting hsm bear loads(305gr hard cast) is doing around 1350 and I can push 240gr Hornady xtp’s around 1400-1450fps. So a 240 at 1250 is running a little slow. And I’m sure Buffalo bore and underwood’s are hotter still
35:49 For Bear Defense specifically, If you can confidently accurately strike your intended 'a zone' target (even b zone) With your 10mm auto 200+grain Bison Bore 'cannon'. You definitely have made a compelling argument you should select it. Because, you will get more Boom per hit. More impact should relate to more flinch (or hesitation) from the animal. Greater chance to punch through the skeletal structure, fracture and fragment. Angle of impact on structure, can create deflection of projectiles, So having more power and more mass, can really affect those less than ideal strikes. In the end, you aren't going varmint hunting, firing this cartridge all day. It is you HOLY $H! T moment, and you want each round to land. Ryan. You said this Bison Bore 10mm is comparable to many 44 Remington revolver loads? Not the bison bore equivalent, perhaps, but. Bringing you so much stopping power, impact force, That I imagine you have to feel very confident. You said that you have not been in this situation. Mark recalled the charging brown bear that closed to and held at 20 yards... His confidence with the trio of 300 Calli re hunting rifles arrayed against that target, Almost certainly gave him confidence to stand tall, stare down. If you lack confidence, if you have hesitation, doubts, That could be the factor that influences your human inputs. If you are confident that your strikes will make heavy impact, and be very discouraging, and often very final resolution... That confidence could be the factor which brings you back to muscle memory, drilled confidence, and let your adrenaline enhance your performance,
I have a G20, but would need a few years of training/repetition/experience with it before trying to carry it in the field. I always have to carry the sidearm I have the most time behind, because when SHTF, you need to pull and know exactly what is going to occur and exactly how your follow-ups are going to go.
Those wheel gun magnums are always gonna pack more punch going out, along with a better bullet selection of solids, but it’s also going to hit you just as hard in return. Do you want less rounds with more punch both ways and can you hit with all of them or would you rather go to an auto with a smidge less punch but a far higher capacity to throw out there.
@@thewesternmohawk4995 it’s really the way to go I think, especially with some of the guns on the market and what can be achieved with each. Many 10mm run at about 16 rounds in a mag or up to 21, and that will get you the same ballistics as a .357 Mag but with a fatter bullet and the most you’ll get is an 8 round cylinder. I’d argue if someone is using a revolver that’s most likely what they’ll run with that being the easiest to carry and handle so double to triple the ammo for less recoil and a wider bullet a win all the way there.
Wheel gun = more reliable/no jams. Misfire? Pull the trigger/good to go. 357 mag will out penetrate both. Don't forget bear hide is thick and tough and this is BEFORE you hit the fat layer! Well before you encounter ANY bone or tissue! Also, you aren't going to get off more than a few shots, let alone, a full mag dump. More controllable than a 10mm and better penetration than a 9mm. Just my 2 cents...
@@atomicwedgie8176 wheel guns absolutely will jam and when they do you don’t get to just rack slap bang, as far as double hitting goes there’s a lot of double action guns on the market so you if it doesn’t go bang pull it again. And as far as you’ll only get a few shots maybe, but with the appropriate striker fired gun or good hammer fired semi auto you can do a mag dump in under 5 seconds.
I've got a glock 40 mos as my hunting backup and love it. Thing is a laser. Haven't had to pull it under pressure, but practice with it enough I'm confident it'll get the job done. Shooting USPSA has done wonders for my pistol shooting.
I carry a 9mm as a backup while hunting in blackbear country. Reason I chose a 9mm, was because I already owned it and can afford to practice with it. Being a CA hunter, our selection of sidearms is limited and we have to carry non lead ammo.
Also a CA hunter, I usually carry my G23 40SW. I mostly hunt UT, CO, AZ. However we are going to start hunting ID and WA so looking to upgrade. Not allot of choices in CA so going to with Gen3, G20 10MM. A guy just downed a Grizzly in Alaska a few weeks ago with a 10MM
As a wheel gunner, I feel obligated to respond with what I would consider to be a reasonable balance between power and controllability, and that would be the .357 magnum. Way more controllable than a 10mm in a heavy 4 inch express sighted wheel gun, S&W model 27 or 28, stoked with either a 158 hard cast lead gas check (ballistically superior to the 9mm) or a BB 180 gr Outdoorsman (ballistically close to a 10mm with a similar weight projectile) but more controllable.
Silly Talk is a sure sight of small fellers syndrome. Comparing apples to oranges if you can keep up, comparing magnum * rounds to standard rounds proves my point. +P+ better comparison but I'm sure that's not your objective old timer.
Exactly what is there to keep up with??? Magnum vs standard wasn’t my point. You can get yourself all hung up with “standard vs magnum” semantics all day if like, as the magnum classification from its inception was a marketing ploy from the beginning. So my point, if you can keep up, was to a more ballistically comparable round to the 10mm which is the 357, which although inconsequentially larger, is similar to the 9mm in diameter, but carries with it better sectional density in the 180gr projectile. So apples to apples, ballistically speaking, I would have liked to have seen the 357 compared to the 10mm.
A magazine of ammo....unlikely. Glock says not to shoot cast in their barrels. They also don't want us to shoot handloads. LOTS of folk have shot thousands of cast bullets through Glock barrels....but some have experienced problems. The general experience has been that those problems were due to a build up of lead in the barrels and front of the chambers. Since the problems were based on a cumulative effect, a few shots followed by thorough cleaning are pretty safe.
Alaskan hunting guides are known to use 10mm Auto...talking and ballistics can't replace actual experience. That being said, a Native took a record grizzly with a 22lr.
Have never commented, but have watched/listened to 10 minute sequences several years. The appendix carry comments, pistol vs rifle carry ratios and your general challenges/discomfort drive my comment. Watch "Honest Outlaw". You 2/3 have so much in common but very different strengths. He and wife have a great catalog of shorter visitation complement your expertise. Look forward to both new entries and as a broken down old guy the youth, energy, teamwork and especially knowledge are entertaining and enlightening. Thank You!!
I have been carrying my 2.5" barrel S&W Model 66 with 180 grain hard cast 357 magnum hand loads for protection in the woods. You should use the handgun you are most confident in using. My confidence putting 6 rounds on target with this pistol makes it my choice.
It's titled 9vs10... more of just be prepared, the first time using your defense should not be the first defending your self. Great video, I think there is defiantly a few more videos from this.
This goes to show that the difference in performance between most readily available pistol cartridges (9, 10, 40, 45) with similar bullets is nearly negligible. Bullet brand and type, especially in expanding bullets, makes a huge difference in performance though. Run what you brung and bring the right bullet for the situation.
When talking about a gun for strictly bear defense ( well mostly bear defence and practice and occasional randommusage but never planning on EDC usage is what i mainly mean by that) a good guality compensater / muzle brake works wonders on containing recoil and getting faster follow up shots. Most important they will help a person perform faster follow-up shots that are on target. Yes they are annoying and the concussion and eveything from a brake sucks but in a defensive situation against a bear that matters verry little. And in the scenario he was mentioning with only having 1 available hand and having to fire the 10mm would be difficult i think that acomp / brake would aid in controlling the firearm and getting multiple follow ups on target greatly
40:51 reach out to the guys at Ballistic Highspeed and see if they can’t bring a camera that can record at 120,000 frames per second. Also, they have some inCREDible stories about explosions/explosives you might want to ask about.
1:10:51 I think Ryan is making a point about the hood itself. Being not unlike, a ring sight of some sort. An aperture one brackets the target with. A physical, iron, unpowered... Reliable... Sight picture... And that... Sounds compelling. It really does.
YEARS ago I would go to the range and shoot full power 158 grain 357 magnum (not the "watered-down loads" - a few cylinders then switch to a 44 magnum 240 grains and shoot a few cylinders --- then when I came back to the 10mm I had -- it was almost nothing for recoil even with those 220 grain hardcasts it felt almost like a 22.
39:41 I think, you are probably correct, that you and Mark were being less disciplined and intentional, with the 9, More relaxed, if not 'sloppy' or 'lazy'... But less disciplined. Learning to shoot well, you learn to square your stance, You learn to regiment disciplined foot stance, posture, arm wrist hand placement, Grip, breathing, trigger pull. Pistol orientation, support hand, target acquisition. Etc etc etc. If you were both intentionally applying your best practices with the 10mm... It tracks, that you saw consistent, accurate, results. If you were relaxed, 'sloppy' with your 9mm, It makes sense, that you saw some 'wiggle'
Just how much time do you think you would have to shoot at a charging bear? A Glock 20 holds 15 rounds of 10mm. Loaded with 200 grain hard cast (with a Wolf or similar barrel) is the medicine I would choose. 9mm is not a bb gun and will penetrate well with solids as well but I'd rather have the heavier, faster and more energy of the 10mm. Period.
only fault I found in your testing was you didn't have the hide on it which is pretty thick and tough. That may have got you more definative results between the two cartridges
It's interesting to hear them talk about how upscale the 10mm round is, and relate to it in terms of typical handgun scaling, which in turn is relative to effectiveness on a human assailant. "Yeah - that's got some power"! Except, of course, even with a human, while it might prove to be adequate to cause a fatality, it's still an open question whether it will cause an immediate incapacitation. And the WHOLE issue when you are defending against a feral predator is exactly, and only, immediate incapacitation. And the feral predator that they are talking about is not a 180-200 lb 6 foot tall enraged human assailant. The feral predator they are talking about is an 8 foot tall, 40 mph 800 lb monster with 4 inch claws that is a holdover from Jurassic Park, and it's 10 feet away. I think that's important to keep in mind. Because you don't get a do-over.
5:19 You actually had Jim. Volunteer to come into the studio, in a bear suit, behind Mark, and jump out and Roar. For Laughs. But then he saw what your Rounds did on the range, and NOPED OUT. he saw what the 10mm did to that bare bear skull, and said No, I will not be a charging bear, at the range, today
43:58 I think that the takeaway from most of this test and chat. The 10mm Bison Bore, is presenting impressive results, perhaps, impressive accuracy, (exceeding your expectation there) (accuracy at speed, vs manageable recoil from impressive power) The 9mm exceeded your expectations in its terminal profile inside the gel and the skull... It perhaps only disappointed you in the accuracy you achieved vs the 10mm (but you suspect you were less disciplined with the 9mm vs the 10mm) Takeaway. Either will function well. If you feel most comfortable and confident and accurate, with a 9mm, you CNA feel confident that there is ammunition such as the bison Bore, which can deliver a serious impact. Comparable if not identical to the 10mm big brother. If you are more confident and accurate with the 10mm, Feel very confident in the terminal result from a cartidge/projectile such as this bison Bore... Which, reliably delved a heavy payload into the target.
Theres the one thing that stood out to me immediately. Shooting Pistols is HARD/difficult!!! It's soooooo much more difficult to be relatively OK with a pistol than a rifle. Everytime I pick up a pistol I am shooting Low or high, just never where I really wanted to.
Eberlestock makes an awesome product that goes into the mole of a pack belt but then Lowers holster closer to height of pants belt. I have QLS on mine too easily swap from on the pack to elsewhere if I drop pack. But it's nice to get the draw down lower.
Have either of you thought about using the S&W 627 8-shot with suitable ammo? 5in barrel. I have a Glock 29 and Sig p220 in 10mm. The 8shot revolver could be more usable depending on situation. Any thoughts on the 8-shot Smith?
9x19 has been proven to be perfectly effective, and perhaps the biggest takeaway here is that 'double the power' in terms of ft-lbs of energy was all but meaningless, resulting in almost the exact same levels of penetration in the gel blocks (surely 70 inches is plenty of penetration for either bullet) pointing to the fact that most cartridges in the same category when loaded with similar bullet styles will perform similarly. It would be nice to eventually put to bed the arguments that .45 ACP/10mm and similar cartridges are significantly more powerful in terms of terminal performance simply by being marginally bigger when in all reality the differences in what the bullets actually do in targets is nearly identical most of the time to 'weaker' 9x19.
Marginally bigger? It's 50%larger and faster making it practically double the energy. One test in room temperature gel doesn't really show an accurate representation. Not saying it couldn't be done with 9 but I'll stay with my 10.
@@iclzinc3920 I already mentioned it was double the energy. It is only .045 inches wider and it only weighs about 70 grains more. The bear you shoot could weigh as much as 1200 pounds, which is 8.4 million grains, so the bullet being a few hundreths of an inch wider and the weight difference being .00000833% of the animal's weight is indeed marginal, yes. The weight, width, and 'power' didn't show up anywhere in the straight gel tests or the multiple bear head tests, besides felt recoil, and the ammo was likely double the cost. The 9x19 load performed to identical standards in all of the tests shown.
If I were to rely on my 9mm for defense in big bear country, I would choose the Underwood Extreme Penetrator. But, that is one reason I own a couple S&W 629s.
Great advice. 55:25 Practice as realistically as possible. I would suggest to a person to do so before they spend money on the expensive quality Firearm. Run an exercise with a bb Glock, in holster, on pack, on hike, That CO2 Glick is so similar, in size and shape, You can test the majority of the ergonomics of your intended setup before spending on a Firearm. Avoid learning it won't work for you. Find means to carry that pistol with you, and then, by all means.
I’m sure you know this, but if your looking for a 329pd. Smith and Wesson made a 329 Ng (night guard) same as pd, but with a 2.5” barrel! It’s the ultimate 44mag pack gun! These are go to pistols for guides in the know in bear country. The gun I love to carry but no one wants to shoot until you need it! Plastic semiautomatic pistol’s have NO sex appeal, and bring nothing to the table for camp conversation!
Because bored, and all anyone ever talks about is KE values, which are not a wounding, or usable metric. 9mm 147gr 9.525 gram 1100 fps 335.28 m/s Area: 63.75 mm Acc: 2444445 ft/s ^2 Force: 7097 N Momentum: 3.2 kg•m/s Pressure: 111325 kPa 16,146 PSI 10mm 220gr 14.256 gram 1200fps 365.76 m/s Area: 81.07 mm Acc:2926829 ft/s^2 Force:12717 N Momentum: 5.21 kg•m/s Pressure: 156864 kPa 22,761 PSI
My life size black bear target is really hard to see in tall weeds. Even at 50 yards. In the tall weeds it hard to get a decent arrow shot at vitals. I practice the knee drop for charging bear. Yes it does cost valuable time. But shooting angle means better odds for rounds on target as shooting angles change.
Fun fact, you can prevent a scared bear by running away from you sometimes by kneeling. 'Before I could duck into a hollow and hide, the female bear stood tall to sort out what I was. She saw enough to know I was not a bear, and I could tell she was getting ready to run. I really did not want to put another family of bears to flight, and I started telling the bear this, loud enough for her and her cubs to hear. Actually, I was begging. I put everything I had into it and, though I wouldn't have done this with a human audience, I went down on my knees to add abjectness to my appeal. This display of mine, an audition for the nuthouse in human terms, seemed to work. Not only did the female not run away, she began to move in my direction. Her path took her behind a screen of alders, but by the odd flicker of a branch I was able to track her and her cubs’ progress until they came into view again.' Source: “Grizzly Heart: Living Without Fear among the Brown Bears of Kamchatka” Likewise, you can provoke a predatory bear attack by making yourself look smaller and vulnerable by bending over or crouching close to the ground. ua-cam.com/users/shortsuXXpzQnWkuw?feature=shared ua-cam.com/users/shortsZ5A_iyZkaMg?feature=shared Shot angle isn't really the problem, it's that people need to lead the target.
This was a very interesting discussion. Thank you for doing this. I want to offer one comment. You concentrate on the technology and ballistics, which is cool, and in so doing, you touch on what is to me, the crucial element - the shooter. Penetration, kinetic energy etc. are interesting, but the elephant in the room is THE SHOOTER HAS TO PUT THE BULLET IN THE RIGHT PLACE. Fifteen hits from a 10mm in the bear's paw, hindquarters, chest cavity are not going to save the shooter from a mauling. One hit in the brain might (even that isn't certain.) I've never been charged by a bear, certainly never shot one and have zero personal knowledge. Never the less, I am certain that the crucial factor is being able to place shot(s) in the head at the crucial time. Being able to place ACCURATE shots in a heart-pounding stressful situation, rapidly is the crucial factor. Out of ten points of importance, nine of them are shooter skill. A shooter who fires one magazine load and then goes into the back country thinking he/she is ready is being foolish. If he/she fires one hundred rounds per week for the two months prior to the trip in draw/snap shoot/reload drills, then they are being much more prepared. My back country sidearm is a Ruger Blackhawk .41 Mag with 4-5/8" barrel (the New Model that can be carried with 6 rounds). It is much slower than anything you discussed, being single action with iron sights. It is much more familiar to me than any other, so it's what I choose. I have fired a couple thousand rounds though it and trust it now completely. But, that's just me and YMMV. Anyway, thanks for this and please keep up the good work.
‘Nardo DiCaprio beats a griz. I once saw a coastal brown, black as coal, charge uphill snapping 2” green alders. He looked every bit like a car lost control into the trees off the freeway. Same species/ different animal
1:00:27 Excellent advice thank you. It will. Make a difference. Changing from the 9mm to the 10 mm. A noticeable difference. But your skills will transfer and you won't feel like it's a 'completely' alien foreign strange experience. How much difference you motice, how much adjustment you need to make. Personal unique individual experience there. But your 9mm practice will benefit your 10mm proficiency in those nearly identical. Platforms. Much the way that you benefit from practicing extensively with your tikka t3x in 6.5 creed... Or .223 rem... To benefit your proficiency with the identical rifle chambered in something with more recoil. 300 Win Mag? Whatever your heavy and expensive rifle Variant is. The lower power recoil, lower cost(Ammo) Variant, will benefit your overall marksmanship. Using your scope. Using your ballistic app. Breathing. Trigger. Everything transfers. Then the only component missing is the familiarity with the specific firearm/ammunition combination. I would think you would say the same thing, for the 9mm. If you practice with it with a more affordable, lower kick round... You can increase your overall marksmanship confidence and experience with that specific Pistol. Before practicing with the more expensive and more powerful, full kick rounds. You definitely benefit from the practice with the actual intended round, Before taking into the field. But. You can get more practice, more affordably, with less body or wallet pain, By logging a high volume of practice with your chosen 'range rounds' I would think, it might be possible, to match up a lower cost 'practice' round, which might have somewhat similar ballistic trajectory... In terms of Drop at range a/b/c. So that your practice rounds more closely simulate your 'hunting' round. The recoil will be lower on a lower kick round, but, if you can find a practice round with somewhat similar drop to the defense round... Like the bison Bore... That alone might help to increase the value of your range practice. Great advice. Great advice.
So I'm very curious. Blame it on video games, but, we have access to a massive variety of rifles, ars, pistols, and everything in between. In almost any chamber we desire. Could you breakdown, how performance of a 10mm (or 9mm) is different, between a pistol platform like this, And something like an MP5 in 10mm. Or more of an Assault Rifle, chambered for 10mm. I'm wondering, would you always use identical. Rounds? Between your pistol and your MP5 type? Would you change anything if you were firing a 10mm hunting rifle? Assault Rifle? Cartridge? Powder? Does the longer barrel, give the projectile more velocity? Or does the cartridge get more powder for an assault rifle?
I gave my opinion yesterday so i would big with the 9mm. With the appropriate bullets like the buffalo bore. If you want a 10mm that holds more rounds I would look into the 2011 pistols. RIA makes one that holds like 14 or 15 rounds. Its a 2011 so it might take some people some getting use to that have not shot 1911s. Their basically a 1911 but double stacked. Like a modern striker fired pistol
It depends on the bear. Black Bear hunting state of Michigan says 6 round max per gun to be legal for hunting. 357 mag and 10 mm are the minimum for brown bear defense in my opinion. South paw so kind of prefer single actions. Plus shooting wad cutters means I shoot it a lot but have shot buffalo bore in it. To know what to expect if I need it for bear.
Why would being left-handed have any impact on single action vs double action preference? You talked about both wadcutters and hunting... What ammunition do you typically use for hunting black bears out of curiosity?
Believe it or not that head actually represents the smaller grizzlies lol Also I think it's well established that both rounds easily go right through a grizzly skull. Go with what you've got, and if you don't got either you can get a 13 round Taurus 9mm for under 150 bucks used.
Love the 'cast but shootability aside, comparing 10 mm buffalo bore to standard 44 isn't a fair comparison. Buffalo bore Heavy .44 Magnum +P+ Ammo - 340 gr. Hard Cast, L.F.N. - @ 1,425 fps/1,533 ft lbs. Not even close.
That's my thought process as well. They are ASSUMING that you will have time to get multiple shots off before the bear is on top of you chewing away. 1,2,3 shots my be all you get regardless.
37:42 What did Jim call the chassis that converts the pistol, into a longer barreled, stocked, platform. I'm sooo curious, how that changes things for y'all, in these tests, with the 10mm. Bison Bore... ... Goggle says... Roni... And similar Pistol conversions to PDW... I'm. Intrigued...
1:05:12 Do you think you could resolve your discipline issue with the 9mm? Achieve the performance you would expect? (maybe, that 'sloppiness' actually replicates. Some field crisis adrenaline, Imprecise imperfect, sloppiness...) Hmm... How accurate will you be when the grizzly is charging. Hmmm....
So what's the difference between hard cast and full metal jackets if the HC doesn't deform? What's the benefits of hardcast , other than leading up the barrel?
That hardcast doesn't deform as easy as soft lead...it will punch thru barriers better than absorbing energy as it contacts other mass...if it deforms, it can shift direction or slow down easier...so when trying to make things bleed or destroy tissue, u want mass traveling thru barrier with the least deformation making the biggest hole, in the right location..hard cast gives u the better ability of the 2 to meet those 3 needs.
Another option if you’re a Glock guy, buy the 10mm and use a conversion barrel to shoot 9mm to practice with. Also while the 9mm performed well I don’t think they make a pistol that’s going to make you feel warm and toasty inside if a big brownie is coming at you full tilt with bad intentions
1:04:30 It can be answered, the way that you have explained before. A 6.5 creedmoor might be less powerful on paper than a 300 Win Mag... But, you have used, and seen used, the 6.5 Creedmoor often enough, You have seen, the folded $5 tent result often enough. You are confident that with. Appropriate projectile selection (ballistics profile) And proper accurate placement, on target, Inside appropriate range (ballistic terminal performance) The cartridge is more than sufficient for. Deer. Elk. Pronghorn. Etc. Etc. You may not have definitive, infallible, conclusive, evidence to end any debate. But you do have confidence from experience and actual. Performance. So, there must be persons out there who have been in situation, where the pistol was there only defense option. Only. Best available. Knowing that you have a magazine, ready, with bear rounds. And have practice with it. You are confident you are one mag change away from whatever you were doing, To prepared. Hiking to the car? Empty, or villain rounds. Hiking to your deer? Bear defense rounds loaded on safety in holster. Approaching the bear downed by arrow? Pistol on safety, in hand?
I practice mostly with 40s&w in my 10mm and it runs 100% reliable and I can find bulk brass easier. But I would probably bring my 9mm because my 10mm is a 2011 and I don’t want to drag it into the woods. And I literally throw my 9mm xdm in the door of my truck daily with no remorse.
This helps me sum up that I don't need a 10mm. If I lived in brown bear country I'd probably do it to give myself more false sense of security. We have ridiculously large black bear here though so I I want another gun it can be justified.
Let us assume a favourable scenario, one of many. You spooked a feeding griz eating berrys at about 50m away. Running at you at 50km/h speed, it takes him 3.6 seconds to be on top of you. Let us say he is not a griz champ running 60 km/h, he had to turn towards you etc. So you are left with 4 sec +-. I can fire my 629 6" with 250gr 1300fps loads 1 shot per sec. There are faster guys. Let us assume that unholstering a 629 leaves you 3 sec to fire. The head (a basketball with soft ball in it) moves up and down left to right. Very slim shances to hit a central nervous system and stop/kill in its tracks (with any caliber). Still left with 3 for double action when griz is on you.
20:21 Definitely. You own a 9mm. Use it often. Know it. Trust it. Have great proficiency with it. And that is a natural choice then, If you can select and practice with, A suitable Bear defense projectile. Ie. Bison Bore. Interesting, you can xbow hunt bison in BC. So, this bison bore, makes a lot of sense, in case the animal is charging and closing, and the arrows aren't, dissuadung it. You can imagine using most of that ballistic penetration, in a large 'long' charging animal. Like bison. Or bear.
Luckily I've never had to deal with a grizzly just black bears and I've had run ins with mom and cubs that were bad I've been lucky to have never made it past the warning shots. I know a guy who had dealings with a grizzly and he had a 7mm stw on his shoulder and absolutely said he didn't have time to take it off his shoulder he said his kimber 1911 45 acp saved his life
![Chris Langan - The Interview THEY Didn't Want You To See - CTMU [Full Version; Timestamps]](/img/n.gif)
Many, many, many years ago a friend and myself were fishing in the middle of nowhere Montana. We had been on this little beaver pond for a few hours and hadn't caught anything, when a small football size grizzly cub emerged from the underbrush across the pond. Then a second cub emerged, shortly followed by mama (who was btw much larger than a football). As we were trying to slowly back out of the area mama took great offense to our presence and charged (if it was a bluff, it worked). My friend was of Lakota heritage and screamed something at the charging bear in what I presumed to be the Lakota language. When the bear stopped, corralled her young ones and slowly exited as fast as they appeared. Standing there dumbfounded and amazed to be alive, I asked him What the #$%^ he said to her. He simply looked at me, grinned and replied, "You just have to know how to talk to a lady!"
“Why rizz’em with the ‘tism when you can rizz’em with the WSM?”~ Mark probably.
I love my generation
Nope. That’s it. You with the comments
A 10mm (.4005" caliber) bullet going 1200fps is going to do far more internal damage than a 9mm (.357 caliber) going 1100 simply because of bullet diameter. Both of you shot better with the 10mm than the 9mm. I have the same 10mm you used in the test. The design makes handling the 10mm recoil, very very easy to handle and stay on target. 15 +1 in 10 mm vs 17 + 1 in the 9. Two extra rounds isn't really a factor.
BTW I am still waiting on the 25 Creedmoor episode.
Edit: THANK YOU for using the same gun, with the same type ammunition for the testing. Huge props for that!.
The have to cater to weak men
Absolutely agree with you there.
They both fired the same pistols.
And the comparison in this case was otherwise nearly identical.
Follow Up, with the comments they made about just how similar this 9mm is to this 10mm, in hand,
Which they explained is not true for all 9 vs 10 comparisons.
Similar perhaps, but not nearly identical?
Its definitely a difference we have seen in many other comparison episodes.
Here and on other channels, comparing rifles for accuracy, but one fires a 6.5 creedmoor or a 223 Remington, and the other fires a 308 or a 300 Win Mag.
Its just,
We'll the scientist in me wants best comparisons... For best data.
@@Jaycv-dq3rg You know women carry outside as well.
@@lordhuck2689and should still carry enough gun to do the job, as well as possible.
My brother in Christ, a difference in 1mm diameter is negligible to a 1000-1500lbs animal. Expansion is more important but utilization of total kinetic energy and shot placement once again is the main factor
Hats off to the company making the gell block bear heads. This is the second one I've seen in a guntuber video. They will sell some.
I love how the bear head looks like it's wearing a goofy smile the whole time, I just cannot unsee it lol!
I would have really liked to see the .45ACP version of this load tested. More weight, more frontal area, but with less velocity. I was very surprised how well the 9mm did. Keep up the good work guys.
"That's my interpretation... I'm not in the mind of a bear, exactly."
Excellence in oration.
Would love to see a regular 9mm fmj vs the 9mm buffalo bore
Aye, I use 9mm 158 grain FMJ for cougar/bear defense. Not hard cast but heavier and wayyyyy cheaper/more available than that buffalo bore stuff. I'm sure it penetrates less but does it penetrate the skull all the way to the spine?
Would like to see the 40 S&W tested identically to the 9mm and 10mm. Frontal area matters when shooting animals. The 9mm surprised me with it’s performance. Enjoyed this test!
Last year's flyfishing trip to Montana I used 9mm with Underwood outdoorsman. I brought what I shoot the best and most often.
I run an XDM Elite Compact 10mm with hard cast hand loads out in the mountains of Eastern Tennessee.
Same here in Minnesota. I bought the matching 9mm for training purposes.
Great video lads, the bear skull replica was great to see
Wow! Wonderful!
Great job Gentlemen!!
Two suggestions to add to your the great double header you already have:
1) Different brands of ammo/bullets,aka full comparison.
2) Standard factory sites vs the different Vortex sights available.
I think you made a good point inadvertly the bullet makeup is critical to performance on a bear!!
Bullet construction is indeed crucial, far more important than just caliber.
I mentioned in one of my videos that a guy shot a bear in the backbone with a .375 H&H. The bullet fragmented and failed to inflict enough damage onto the spine to incapacitate it.
The bear mauled him a bit but he survived.
FYI, I almost bought a M&P 10mm for bear defense. The early guns have a issue with dropping the mags and FTF with the bear loads. A few people did a deep dive on this and found it was the magazine design. The larger projectiles contact the mag release catch and don't allow it to function properly. S&W installed stronger springs on the newer guns to "fix" this issue instead of reworking the mag so the bullets don't make contact with the release. They went with the cheap fix instead of changing the tooling to fix a magazine design flaw. Many think that as the springs break in, the FTF and dropping magazine problems will return. That wasn't something I wanted in the back of my mind while out in the woods. I'm currently looking at a G40 or XDM to replace my Redhawk in 44 mag.
Thanks for doing this episode its one of your guys best that you have done. Keep them coming. Really goad you guys dove into the hard hitting buffalo bore 9mm big game bullet
Living in alaska I learned to carry a back up for the back up... a 10 or 12inch blade. Last defense option
NO. A blade that size that could in theory engage a bear effectively is going to weight about 1 pound. You can carry a 5 shot 357 revolver for the same weight. A blade as a backup to a gun instead of another gun is stoooopid.
Many will carry a blade anyway. I don’t carry ten inches (of blade) but I always have a good, beefy one at the ready.
@@Calqid For lots of things sure. For bear combat , no.
29:32
I think that's really key in this scenario.
Because in a hunting season, perhaps a Muzzle Load. Perhaps an Archery ticket/season.
You hope to not require your emergency, defense pistol at all.
You might target practice, at camp, to stay sharp.
But.
Ideally, you'll have bow in hand during your trip and won't need to resort to the pistol.
But if it came to it.
You have it, you feel confident with it. You have enough access to it, when you need it, (it's not packed)but it's not obstructing your hike, your spotting, or your other shots.
Best episode so far! Keep it up!
Was very surprised by these results, unfortunately here in Communist Canada as a hunter, I cannot carry a handgun for emergency back up. If I could my choice would be a 454 casull, but of these two; 10mm.
While we have our own problems, Canada should have not fought us in 1812 to 1815 and joined us against the Crown. Maybe they would not be in the same poor shape they are in today. Next revolution don't fight us so hard lol.
If you think Canada is communist I've got some Freedum bucks to sell you
I wish they did more caliber comparisons....like 357 magnum, 41 magnum, 44 magnum, 45 Colt, ect.
Do you want them compared to each other or to something more modern in a one on one?
@@CowboyHunterPodcast I will take either or both
@@anonymousf454 well you are out of luck on comparison to modern cartridges from me, it would take all day to read my book on that, and sadly I don’t have the stock available to me to do a video, however these guys probably do so yes they should get on it. However I can quickly divulge that while there is more than meets the eye on these old cartridges especially in todays world with bullet designs, they do fall prey to the simplistic difference machine, and that is they all adhere to the old way of doing things. That is they all find improved ballistics by adding a longer column of powder and a bigger projectile out front. There’s some nuance there however, such as the most common loads of 357 being fairly light bullets compared to the 45 Colt they will travel at a good speed and can get more penetration under the right circumstances. These are also all among a lime called companion cartridges, basically something you could carry both a six gun and a carbine chambered for the same round and simplify things a great deal. Each of these also has a companion or companions that use the same bullet and either a longer or shorter case with them for either easier to shoot or more powerful loads.
@@CowboyHunterPodcastI would love a comparison of those listed, as I feel they would be much more likely to be used than the really big hand cannons.
@@CowboyHunterPodcastThat is a really good argument for the revolver as opposed to the two semi auto pistols. Practice with 38 or 44 special, pack 357 or 44 magnum for use.
Just yesterday shot 40 S&W 180g on my new Glock 20 G4, shot my best groups of the day. Was also shooting 115g with my Glock 26. Not surprised had a much better grip, better control with the Glock 20. Literally made me re-consider using 10mm with 40 S&W for home defense.
Hide is a thing. That is always my issue with gel block test.
And fat. Spring bear vs fall bear are basically two different animals
And simulated bone vs actual bone. Results could be very different in real life. Idk what the synthetic material is made of, but real bone is very dense, extremely strong, and very hard.
Definitely. They should have walked some grizzlies on a leash into the range for this test.
@@anonymousf454you think they wouldn’t air on the side of making the test material denser
@@MylesKillis Yea, I thought it was a really cool test, but I just don't know if it's an accurate representation of how tough a real bear skull is. And I would not want to be the hiker, hunter, fisherman, or outdoorsman who finds out my 9mm didn't perform like on the podcast....lol
Nice video series guys! How about doing the same thing for wheel guns in 357 and 44 mag. These both have option to run special loads for practice. Then another video comparing your observations between the semiauto and the wheel guns.
This has probably been pointed out, and I am certain that you both know this, but a Gen 4/5 backstrap change can mitigate this to a degree in the 9 vs. 10 Glock frame. Glocks are a basically 40 year old design, and the Smith is certainly is more ergonomic, I don't find the Glock bad at all. I have not only a Glock 20 Gen4 but also the M&P with the 4.6 barrel. I did put a KKM barrel in the Glock for a fully supported chamber and Ballard cut rifling. I would bet my life on this package. As to the M&P, I found it to be under sprung, especially in the magazine spring. Wolf extra power springs seem to have remedied the feeding issue it has in stock form, In all fairness, I did buy a very early production example. And I am not yet in a place where I would trust it in the same way I do with the Glock. That said, I agree that the M&P platform gives you great value for money and certainly has the potential to be just as reliable. BTW, my preferred "Bear" load is the 220 cast load from Underwood. For more social work, it is the 135gr Nosler jhp also from Underwood. Defensive ammo cost is not and should not be a consideration. Stop at Starbucks less. What is your life worth?
“Social work”, LOL. I have seen enough factory ammo malfunction that I only fully trust my own reloads. I am not yet reloading 10mm, thus also use Underwood 220s. Play or compete with whatever, when it comes to wanting to survive, we always reach for the Glock, don’t we?!
One thing worth considering.
9mm requires you to go out of your way to find loads specifically for bear defense.
Many 10mm loads are likely to be found as adequate...
Another point of consideration. I'm not sure a 9mm pistol is legal anywhere for taking game where as a 10mm can be. In the ol' pack/rifle off squatting by a tree and a deer steps out at 25 yards. A 10mm can bring venison home, ethically and legally whereas a 9mm cannot.
That’s a potentially interesting point that I hadn’t considered. I checked and 10mm does not meet my states for the overall length requirement for handgun cartridges. 1.5” is the minimum, which would make all readily accessible autos illegal for taking big game. 38 special would be about the shortest. Dangit.
@phild9813 for sure it's a very state by state thing.
But for me here in CO you can (admittedly gotta be picky and buy the right stuff) meet the minimum requirements.
Here the wardens will even ticket you for putting down wounded game with a non-legal pistol. I imagine that's not unique to here.
Having something that meets those requirements, whatever they may be, seems very sensible to me.
Yeah I love the idea. I looked up CO regs…550 ft-lbs at 50 yards. I assume like a hot 10 or 357 is about the minimum?
@phild9813 yes a hot 10mm or 357 mag can meet the requirements.
Some at sea level and more if you calculate adjusting for elevation.
The underwood XTP loadings in 180 and 200gr
Loved this one! Very encouraging to see the 9mm do so well. I already have a 9 (like most people I’d imagine) So instead of spending hundreds of dollars on a new gun it sounds more effective to put that money towards some quality training
Remember, this was not real bear bone. I'm not saying it won't, but this is not conclusive if 9mm is adequate. Don't get squashed in a submarine because you thought it was good enough.
I agree Mark this is my favorite one to. I was so excited when I saw the title! 👍👍
9:25 for context my 44 ruger super Blackhawk shooting hsm bear loads(305gr hard cast) is doing around 1350 and I can push 240gr Hornady xtp’s around 1400-1450fps. So a 240 at 1250 is running a little slow. And I’m sure Buffalo bore and underwood’s are hotter still
35:49
For Bear Defense specifically,
If you can confidently accurately strike your intended 'a zone' target (even b zone)
With your 10mm auto 200+grain Bison Bore 'cannon'.
You definitely have made a compelling argument you should select it.
Because, you will get more Boom per hit. More impact should relate to more flinch (or hesitation) from the animal.
Greater chance to punch through the skeletal structure, fracture and fragment.
Angle of impact on structure, can create deflection of projectiles,
So having more power and more mass, can really affect those less than ideal strikes.
In the end, you aren't going varmint hunting, firing this cartridge all day.
It is you HOLY $H! T moment, and you want each round to land.
Ryan. You said this Bison Bore 10mm is comparable to many 44 Remington revolver loads?
Not the bison bore equivalent, perhaps, but.
Bringing you so much stopping power, impact force,
That I imagine you have to feel very confident.
You said that you have not been in this situation.
Mark recalled the charging brown bear that closed to and held at 20 yards...
His confidence with the trio of 300 Calli re hunting rifles arrayed against that target,
Almost certainly gave him confidence to stand tall, stare down.
If you lack confidence, if you have hesitation, doubts,
That could be the factor that influences your human inputs.
If you are confident that your strikes will make heavy impact, and be very discouraging, and often very final resolution...
That confidence could be the factor which brings you back to muscle memory, drilled confidence, and let your adrenaline enhance your performance,
You should try the 45acp 255 grain hard cast from Buffalo bore
Why did yall not include the .40 s&w?
I have a G20, but would need a few years of training/repetition/experience with it before trying to carry it in the field. I always have to carry the sidearm I have the most time behind, because when SHTF, you need to pull and know exactly what is going to occur and exactly how your follow-ups are going to go.
Great episode many thanks listen to them all but I ride up from Florida and motorcycle camp in Montana every summer so I enjoyed this
Looks like the right ammo in a manageable firearm is your best hope.
Wheel guns vs autos for bears test?
I’ve done my own testing, but being an amateur I’d like to see the pros take on it.
Those wheel gun magnums are always gonna pack more punch going out, along with a better bullet selection of solids, but it’s also going to hit you just as hard in return. Do you want less rounds with more punch both ways and can you hit with all of them or would you rather go to an auto with a smidge less punch but a far higher capacity to throw out there.
My preferred is the 10mm
@@thewesternmohawk4995 it’s really the way to go I think, especially with some of the guns on the market and what can be achieved with each. Many 10mm run at about 16 rounds in a mag or up to 21, and that will get you the same ballistics as a .357 Mag but with a fatter bullet and the most you’ll get is an 8 round cylinder. I’d argue if someone is using a revolver that’s most likely what they’ll run with that being the easiest to carry and handle so double to triple the ammo for less recoil and a wider bullet a win all the way there.
Wheel gun = more reliable/no jams. Misfire? Pull the trigger/good to go.
357 mag will out penetrate both. Don't forget bear hide is thick and tough and this is BEFORE you hit the fat layer! Well before you encounter ANY bone or tissue! Also, you aren't going to get off more than a few shots, let alone, a full mag dump. More controllable than a 10mm and better penetration than a 9mm.
Just my 2 cents...
@@atomicwedgie8176 wheel guns absolutely will jam and when they do you don’t get to just rack slap bang, as far as double hitting goes there’s a lot of double action guns on the market so you if it doesn’t go bang pull it again. And as far as you’ll only get a few shots maybe, but with the appropriate striker fired gun or good hammer fired semi auto you can do a mag dump in under 5 seconds.
I've got a glock 40 mos as my hunting backup and love it. Thing is a laser. Haven't had to pull it under pressure, but practice with it enough I'm confident it'll get the job done.
Shooting USPSA has done wonders for my pistol shooting.
There's a company that makes a fold away gas pedal. It's called black steel, USA. I put that on my 10 mil with a KKM barrel plus comp, it helps a lot
I carry a 9mm as a backup while hunting in blackbear country. Reason I chose a 9mm, was because I already owned it and can afford to practice with it. Being a CA hunter, our selection of sidearms is limited and we have to carry non lead ammo.
Also a CA hunter, I usually carry my G23 40SW. I mostly hunt UT, CO, AZ. However we are going to start hunting ID and WA so looking to upgrade. Not allot of choices in CA so going to with Gen3, G20 10MM. A guy just downed a Grizzly in Alaska a few weeks ago with a 10MM
Stitching in the footage would have been money.
As a wheel gunner, I feel obligated to respond with what I would consider to be a reasonable balance between power and controllability, and that would be the .357 magnum. Way more controllable than a 10mm in a heavy 4 inch express sighted wheel gun, S&W model 27 or 28, stoked with either a 158 hard cast lead gas check (ballistically superior to the 9mm) or a BB 180 gr Outdoorsman (ballistically close to a 10mm with a similar weight projectile) but more controllable.
Silly Talk is a sure sight of small fellers syndrome.
Comparing apples to oranges if you can keep up, comparing magnum * rounds to standard rounds proves my point.
+P+ better comparison but I'm sure that's not your objective old timer.
Exactly what is there to keep up with??? Magnum vs standard wasn’t my point. You can get yourself all hung up with “standard vs magnum” semantics all day if like, as the magnum classification from its inception was a marketing ploy from the beginning. So my point, if you can keep up, was to a more ballistically comparable round to the 10mm which is the 357, which although inconsequentially larger, is similar to the 9mm in diameter, but carries with it better sectional density in the 180gr projectile. So apples to apples, ballistically speaking, I would have liked to have seen the 357 compared to the 10mm.
Thank you for shooting something beside the empty gel. Obviously nothing is like a real animal. But it does show how variable it can be.
The 10mm is my absolute favorite pistol Cartridge. My go to for hunting and defense.
Would there be issues with the hard cast lead in a Glock 17/19 standard barrel Gen 1-4?
Yes get a aftermarket barrel
A magazine of ammo....unlikely. Glock says not to shoot cast in their barrels. They also don't want us to shoot handloads. LOTS of folk have shot thousands of cast bullets through Glock barrels....but some have experienced problems. The general experience has been that those problems were due to a build up of lead in the barrels and front of the chambers. Since the problems were based on a cumulative effect, a few shots followed by thorough cleaning are pretty safe.
Alaskan hunting guides are known to use 10mm Auto...talking and ballistics can't replace actual experience.
That being said, a Native took a record grizzly with a 22lr.
Have never commented, but have watched/listened to 10 minute sequences several years.
The appendix carry comments, pistol vs rifle carry ratios and your general challenges/discomfort drive my comment.
Watch "Honest Outlaw". You 2/3 have so much in common but very different strengths. He and wife have a great catalog of shorter visitation complement your expertise. Look forward to both new entries and as a broken down old guy the youth, energy, teamwork and especially knowledge are entertaining and enlightening. Thank You!!
I have an S&W 329PD you can borrow for testing, just return it clean and with a couple boxes of ammo. (I have a 386Sc as well)
Never seen a grizzly or bear close up out in the wild. Those gel heads are terrifying!
I have been carrying my 2.5" barrel S&W Model 66 with 180 grain hard cast 357 magnum hand loads for protection in the woods. You should use the handgun you are most confident in using. My confidence putting 6 rounds on target with this pistol makes it my choice.
It's titled 9vs10... more of just be prepared, the first time using your defense should not be the first defending your self. Great video, I think there is defiantly a few more videos from this.
This goes to show that the difference in performance between most readily available pistol cartridges (9, 10, 40, 45) with similar bullets is nearly negligible. Bullet brand and type, especially in expanding bullets, makes a huge difference in performance though. Run what you brung and bring the right bullet for the situation.
When talking about a gun for strictly bear defense ( well mostly bear defence and practice and occasional randommusage but never planning on EDC usage is what i mainly mean by that) a good guality compensater / muzle brake works wonders on containing recoil and getting faster follow up shots. Most important they will help a person perform faster follow-up shots that are on target. Yes they are annoying and the concussion and eveything from a brake sucks but in a defensive situation against a bear that matters verry little. And in the scenario he was mentioning with only having 1 available hand and having to fire the 10mm would be difficult i think that acomp / brake would aid in controlling the firearm and getting multiple follow ups on target greatly
40:51 reach out to the guys at Ballistic Highspeed and see if they can’t bring a camera that can record at 120,000 frames per second. Also, they have some inCREDible stories about explosions/explosives you might want to ask about.
1:10:51
I think Ryan is making a point about the hood itself.
Being not unlike, a ring sight of some sort.
An aperture one brackets the target with.
A physical, iron, unpowered... Reliable... Sight picture...
And that... Sounds compelling. It really does.
YEARS ago I would go to the range and shoot full power 158 grain 357 magnum (not the "watered-down loads" - a few cylinders then switch to a 44 magnum 240 grains and shoot a few cylinders --- then when I came back to the 10mm I had -- it was almost nothing for recoil even with those 220 grain hardcasts it felt almost like a 22.
What I've got is a 45, ACP will you talk about the 45 ACP as a Bear 🐻 defence??
39:41
I think, you are probably correct, that you and Mark were being less disciplined and intentional, with the 9,
More relaxed, if not 'sloppy' or 'lazy'... But less disciplined.
Learning to shoot well, you learn to square your stance,
You learn to regiment disciplined foot stance, posture, arm wrist hand placement,
Grip, breathing, trigger pull.
Pistol orientation, support hand, target acquisition.
Etc etc etc.
If you were both intentionally applying your best practices with the 10mm...
It tracks, that you saw consistent, accurate, results.
If you were relaxed, 'sloppy' with your 9mm,
It makes sense, that you saw some 'wiggle'
Just how much time do you think you would have to shoot at a charging bear? A Glock 20 holds 15 rounds of 10mm. Loaded with 200 grain hard cast (with a Wolf or similar barrel) is the medicine I would choose. 9mm is not a bb gun and will penetrate well with solids as well but I'd rather have the heavier, faster and more energy of the 10mm. Period.
only fault I found in your testing was you didn't have the hide on it which is pretty thick and tough. That may have got you more definative results between the two cartridges
It's interesting to hear them talk about how upscale the 10mm round is, and relate to it in terms of typical handgun scaling, which in turn is relative to effectiveness on a human assailant. "Yeah - that's got some power"!
Except, of course, even with a human, while it might prove to be adequate to cause a fatality, it's still an open question whether it will cause an immediate incapacitation. And the WHOLE issue when you are defending against a feral predator is exactly, and only, immediate incapacitation.
And the feral predator that they are talking about is not a 180-200 lb 6 foot tall enraged human assailant. The feral predator they are talking about is an 8 foot tall, 40 mph 800 lb monster with 4 inch claws that is a holdover from Jurassic Park, and it's 10 feet away. I think that's important to keep in mind. Because you don't get a do-over.
5:19
You actually had Jim. Volunteer to come into the studio, in a bear suit, behind Mark, and jump out and
Roar.
For Laughs.
But then he saw what your Rounds did on the range, and NOPED OUT.
he saw what the 10mm did to that bare bear skull, and said
No, I will not be a charging bear, at the range, today
43:58
I think that the takeaway from most of this test and chat.
The 10mm Bison Bore, is presenting impressive results, perhaps, impressive accuracy, (exceeding your expectation there) (accuracy at speed, vs manageable recoil from impressive power)
The 9mm exceeded your expectations in its terminal profile inside the gel and the skull...
It perhaps only disappointed you in the accuracy you achieved vs the 10mm (but you suspect you were less disciplined with the 9mm vs the 10mm)
Takeaway.
Either will function well.
If you feel most comfortable and confident and accurate, with a 9mm, you CNA feel confident that there is ammunition such as the bison Bore, which can deliver a serious impact.
Comparable if not identical to the 10mm big brother.
If you are more confident and accurate with the 10mm,
Feel very confident in the terminal result from a cartidge/projectile such as this bison Bore...
Which, reliably delved a heavy payload into the target.
Theres the one thing that stood out to me immediately.
Shooting Pistols is HARD/difficult!!!
It's soooooo much more difficult to be relatively OK with a pistol than a rifle. Everytime I pick up a pistol I am shooting Low or high, just never where I really wanted to.
Watch JJ Racaza on grip
Eberlestock makes an awesome product that goes into the mole of a pack belt but then Lowers holster closer to height of pants belt. I have QLS on mine too easily swap from on the pack to elsewhere if I drop pack. But it's nice to get the draw down lower.
Hatchet holster they call it. No holster included. Basically a drop down for a pack belt.
Have either of you thought about using the S&W 627 8-shot with suitable ammo? 5in barrel. I have a Glock 29 and Sig p220 in 10mm.
The 8shot revolver could be more usable depending on situation. Any thoughts on the 8-shot Smith?
Bear gel vs bare gel great to see the test on the this.
9x19 has been proven to be perfectly effective, and perhaps the biggest takeaway here is that 'double the power' in terms of ft-lbs of energy was all but meaningless, resulting in almost the exact same levels of penetration in the gel blocks (surely 70 inches is plenty of penetration for either bullet) pointing to the fact that most cartridges in the same category when loaded with similar bullet styles will perform similarly.
It would be nice to eventually put to bed the arguments that .45 ACP/10mm and similar cartridges are significantly more powerful in terms of terminal performance simply by being marginally bigger when in all reality the differences in what the bullets actually do in targets is nearly identical most of the time to 'weaker' 9x19.
Marginally bigger? It's 50%larger and faster making it practically double the energy. One test in room temperature gel doesn't really show an accurate representation. Not saying it couldn't be done with 9 but I'll stay with my 10.
@@iclzinc3920 I already mentioned it was double the energy. It is only .045 inches wider and it only weighs about 70 grains more. The bear you shoot could weigh as much as 1200 pounds, which is 8.4 million grains, so the bullet being a few hundreths of an inch wider and the weight difference being .00000833% of the animal's weight is indeed marginal, yes. The weight, width, and 'power' didn't show up anywhere in the straight gel tests or the multiple bear head tests, besides felt recoil, and the ammo was likely double the cost. The 9x19 load performed to identical standards in all of the tests shown.
If I were to rely on my 9mm for defense in big bear country, I would choose the Underwood Extreme Penetrator. But, that is one reason I own a couple S&W 629s.
Great advice.
55:25
Practice as realistically as possible.
I would suggest to a person to do so before they spend money on the expensive quality Firearm.
Run an exercise with a bb Glock, in holster, on pack, on hike,
That CO2 Glick is so similar, in size and shape,
You can test the majority of the ergonomics of your intended setup before spending on a Firearm.
Avoid learning it won't work for you.
Find means to carry that pistol with you, and then, by all means.
I’m sure you know this, but if your looking for a 329pd. Smith and Wesson made a 329 Ng (night guard) same as pd, but with a 2.5” barrel! It’s the ultimate 44mag pack gun! These are go to pistols for guides in the know in bear country. The gun I love to carry but no one wants to shoot until you need it! Plastic semiautomatic pistol’s have NO sex appeal, and bring nothing to the table for camp conversation!
Because bored, and all anyone ever talks about is KE values, which are not a wounding, or usable metric.
9mm
147gr
9.525 gram
1100 fps
335.28 m/s
Area: 63.75 mm
Acc: 2444445 ft/s ^2
Force: 7097 N
Momentum: 3.2 kg•m/s
Pressure: 111325 kPa
16,146 PSI
10mm
220gr
14.256 gram
1200fps
365.76 m/s
Area: 81.07 mm
Acc:2926829 ft/s^2
Force:12717 N
Momentum: 5.21 kg•m/s
Pressure: 156864 kPa
22,761 PSI
So 10mm with 44% more force, and 30% more pressure for the win!🤠
My life size black bear target is really hard to see in tall weeds. Even at 50 yards. In the tall weeds it hard to get a decent arrow shot at vitals. I practice the knee drop for charging bear. Yes it does cost valuable time. But shooting angle means better odds for rounds on target as shooting angles change.
Fun fact, you can prevent a scared bear by running away from you sometimes by kneeling.
'Before I could duck into a hollow and hide, the female bear stood tall to sort out what I was. She saw enough to know I was not a bear, and I could tell she was getting ready to run. I really did not want to put another family of bears to flight, and I started telling the bear this, loud enough for her and her cubs to hear. Actually, I was begging. I put everything I had into it and, though I wouldn't have done this with a human audience, I went down on my knees to add abjectness to my appeal.
This display of mine, an audition for the nuthouse in human terms, seemed to work. Not only did the female not run away, she began to move in my direction. Her path took her behind a screen of alders, but by the odd flicker of a branch I was able to track her and her cubs’ progress until they came into view again.'
Source: “Grizzly Heart: Living Without Fear among the Brown Bears of Kamchatka”
Likewise, you can provoke a predatory bear attack by making yourself look smaller and vulnerable by bending over or crouching close to the ground.
ua-cam.com/users/shortsuXXpzQnWkuw?feature=shared
ua-cam.com/users/shortsZ5A_iyZkaMg?feature=shared
Shot angle isn't really the problem, it's that people need to lead the target.
This was a very interesting discussion. Thank you for doing this.
I want to offer one comment. You concentrate on the technology and ballistics, which is cool, and in so doing, you touch on what is to me, the crucial element - the shooter. Penetration, kinetic energy etc. are interesting, but the elephant in the room is THE SHOOTER HAS TO PUT THE BULLET IN THE RIGHT PLACE. Fifteen hits from a 10mm in the bear's paw, hindquarters, chest cavity are not going to save the shooter from a mauling. One hit in the brain might (even that isn't certain.) I've never been charged by a bear, certainly never shot one and have zero personal knowledge. Never the less, I am certain that the crucial factor is being able to place shot(s) in the head at the crucial time. Being able to place ACCURATE shots in a heart-pounding stressful situation, rapidly is the crucial factor. Out of ten points of importance, nine of them are shooter skill.
A shooter who fires one magazine load and then goes into the back country thinking he/she is ready is being foolish. If he/she fires one hundred rounds per week for the two months prior to the trip in draw/snap shoot/reload drills, then they are being much more prepared.
My back country sidearm is a Ruger Blackhawk .41 Mag with 4-5/8" barrel (the New Model that can be carried with 6 rounds). It is much slower than anything you discussed, being single action with iron sights. It is much more familiar to me than any other, so it's what I choose. I have fired a couple thousand rounds though it and trust it now completely. But, that's just me and YMMV.
Anyway, thanks for this and please keep up the good work.
Glock 40 10mm all the way for me! As a backup to my RUGER super redhawk in .480 😂
Funny hearing you talk about brown bear and grizzly as though they are different species lol
‘Nardo DiCaprio beats a griz. I once saw a coastal brown, black as coal, charge uphill snapping 2” green alders. He looked every bit like a car lost control into the trees off the freeway. Same species/ different animal
1:00:27
Excellent advice thank you.
It will. Make a difference. Changing from the 9mm to the 10 mm.
A noticeable difference. But your skills will transfer and you won't feel like it's a 'completely' alien foreign strange experience.
How much difference you motice, how much adjustment you need to make. Personal unique individual experience there.
But your 9mm practice will benefit your 10mm proficiency in those nearly identical. Platforms.
Much the way that you benefit from practicing extensively with your tikka t3x in 6.5 creed... Or .223 rem...
To benefit your proficiency with the identical rifle chambered in something with more recoil.
300 Win Mag?
Whatever your heavy and expensive rifle Variant is.
The lower power recoil, lower cost(Ammo) Variant, will benefit your overall marksmanship.
Using your scope. Using your ballistic app.
Breathing. Trigger. Everything transfers.
Then the only component missing is the familiarity with the specific firearm/ammunition combination.
I would think you would say the same thing, for the 9mm.
If you practice with it with a more affordable, lower kick round...
You can increase your overall marksmanship confidence and experience with that specific Pistol.
Before practicing with the more expensive and more powerful, full kick rounds.
You definitely benefit from the practice with the actual intended round,
Before taking into the field.
But.
You can get more practice, more affordably, with less body or wallet pain,
By logging a high volume of practice with your chosen 'range rounds'
I would think, it might be possible, to match up a lower cost 'practice' round, which might have somewhat similar ballistic trajectory...
In terms of Drop at range a/b/c.
So that your practice rounds more closely simulate your 'hunting' round.
The recoil will be lower on a lower kick round, but, if you can find a practice round with somewhat similar drop to the defense round... Like the bison Bore...
That alone might help to increase the value of your range practice.
Great advice. Great advice.
So I'm very curious.
Blame it on video games, but, we have access to a massive variety of rifles, ars, pistols, and everything in between. In almost any chamber we desire.
Could you breakdown, how performance of a 10mm (or 9mm) is different, between a pistol platform like this,
And something like an MP5 in 10mm.
Or more of an Assault Rifle, chambered for 10mm.
I'm wondering, would you always use identical. Rounds?
Between your pistol and your MP5 type?
Would you change anything if you were firing a 10mm hunting rifle? Assault Rifle?
Cartridge? Powder?
Does the longer barrel, give the projectile more velocity?
Or does the cartridge get more powder for an assault rifle?
I gave my opinion yesterday so i would big with the 9mm. With the appropriate bullets like the buffalo bore. If you want a 10mm that holds more rounds I would look into the 2011 pistols. RIA makes one that holds like 14 or 15 rounds. Its a 2011 so it might take some people some getting use to that have not shot 1911s. Their basically a 1911 but double stacked. Like a modern striker fired pistol
It depends on the bear. Black Bear hunting state of Michigan says 6 round max per gun to be legal for hunting. 357 mag and 10 mm are the minimum for brown bear defense in my opinion. South paw so kind of prefer single actions. Plus shooting wad cutters means I shoot it a lot but have shot buffalo bore in it. To know what to expect if I need it for bear.
Why would being left-handed have any impact on single action vs double action preference?
You talked about both wadcutters and hunting... What ammunition do you typically use for hunting black bears out of curiosity?
Great podcast
Believe it or not that head actually represents the smaller grizzlies lol
Also I think it's well established that both rounds easily go right through a grizzly skull. Go with what you've got, and if you don't got either you can get a 13 round Taurus 9mm for under 150 bucks used.
Love the 'cast but shootability aside, comparing 10 mm buffalo bore to standard 44 isn't a fair comparison. Buffalo bore Heavy .44 Magnum +P+ Ammo - 340 gr. Hard Cast, L.F.N. - @ 1,425 fps/1,533 ft lbs. Not even close.
Excellent '' Another Great Podcast / Video 💯💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
My Ruger .480 Super Alaskan is already perfect. My 1st hit has more energy than your first 4 WunderNines- and I assure you- it will be a hit.
That's my thought process as well. They are ASSUMING that you will have time to get multiple shots off before the bear is on top of you chewing away. 1,2,3 shots my be all you get regardless.
Always a fan of hits on target!
Great video
I have a Glock 20 with a 4” two port barrel and it’s far easier to shoot than any smaller framed 9mm I actually really enjoy it .
Retest with 357 sig and 9x25 dillon please.
How about a test that uses only loads available from even a well stocked store...
37:42
What did Jim call the chassis that converts the pistol, into a longer barreled, stocked, platform.
I'm sooo curious, how that changes things for y'all, in these tests, with the 10mm. Bison Bore...
... Goggle says...
Roni...
And similar Pistol conversions to PDW...
I'm. Intrigued...
Thank you!
1:05:12
Do you think you could resolve your discipline issue with the 9mm?
Achieve the performance you would expect?
(maybe, that 'sloppiness' actually replicates. Some field crisis adrenaline, Imprecise imperfect, sloppiness...)
Hmm...
How accurate will you be when the grizzly is charging.
Hmmm....
So what's the difference between hard cast and full metal jackets if the HC doesn't deform? What's the benefits of hardcast , other than leading up the barrel?
That hardcast doesn't deform as easy as soft lead...it will punch thru barriers better than absorbing energy as it contacts other mass...if it deforms, it can shift direction or slow down easier...so when trying to make things bleed or destroy tissue, u want mass traveling thru barrier with the least deformation making the biggest hole, in the right location..hard cast gives u the better ability of the 2 to meet those 3 needs.
FMJ does not necessarily mean hard. Many are soft and can deform.
Another option if you’re a Glock guy, buy the 10mm and use a conversion barrel to shoot 9mm to practice with.
Also while the 9mm performed well I don’t think they make a pistol that’s going to make you feel warm and toasty inside if a big brownie is coming at you full tilt with bad intentions
1:04:30
It can be answered, the way that you have explained before.
A 6.5 creedmoor might be less powerful on paper than a 300 Win Mag...
But, you have used, and seen used, the 6.5 Creedmoor often enough,
You have seen, the folded $5 tent result often enough.
You are confident that with.
Appropriate projectile selection (ballistics profile)
And proper accurate placement, on target,
Inside appropriate range (ballistic terminal performance)
The cartridge is more than sufficient for.
Deer.
Elk.
Pronghorn. Etc. Etc.
You may not have definitive, infallible, conclusive, evidence to end any debate.
But you do have confidence from experience and actual. Performance.
So, there must be persons out there who have been in situation, where the pistol was there only defense option. Only. Best available.
Knowing that you have a magazine, ready, with bear rounds. And have practice with it.
You are confident you are one mag change away from whatever you were doing,
To prepared.
Hiking to the car?
Empty, or villain rounds.
Hiking to your deer?
Bear defense rounds loaded on safety in holster.
Approaching the bear downed by arrow?
Pistol on safety, in hand?
I practice mostly with 40s&w in my 10mm and it runs 100% reliable and I can find bulk brass easier. But I would probably bring my 9mm because my 10mm is a 2011 and I don’t want to drag it into the woods. And I literally throw my 9mm xdm in the door of my truck daily with no remorse.
This helps me sum up that I don't need a 10mm. If I lived in brown bear country I'd probably do it to give myself more false sense of security. We have ridiculously large black bear here though so I I want another gun it can be justified.
It's justified :)
Everyone needs a 10mm.😂
Let us assume a favourable scenario, one of many. You spooked a feeding griz eating berrys at about 50m away. Running at you at 50km/h speed, it takes him 3.6 seconds to be on top of you. Let us say he is not a griz champ running 60 km/h, he had to turn towards you etc. So you are left with 4 sec +-. I can fire my 629 6" with 250gr 1300fps loads 1 shot per sec. There are faster guys. Let us assume that unholstering a 629 leaves you 3 sec to fire. The head (a basketball with soft ball in it) moves up and down left to right. Very slim shances to hit a central nervous system and stop/kill in its tracks (with any caliber). Still left with 3 for double action when griz is on you.
20:21
Definitely.
You own a 9mm. Use it often.
Know it. Trust it. Have great proficiency with it.
And that is a natural choice then,
If you can select and practice with,
A suitable Bear defense projectile.
Ie. Bison Bore.
Interesting, you can xbow hunt bison in BC.
So, this bison bore, makes a lot of sense, in case the animal is charging and closing, and the arrows aren't, dissuadung it.
You can imagine using most of that ballistic penetration, in a large 'long' charging animal.
Like bison. Or bear.
Luckily I've never had to deal with a grizzly just black bears and I've had run ins with mom and cubs that were bad I've been lucky to have never made it past the warning shots. I know a guy who had dealings with a grizzly and he had a 7mm stw on his shoulder and absolutely said he didn't have time to take it off his shoulder he said his kimber 1911 45 acp saved his life