Surprising Mechanism Inside Your Grill Regulator.
Вставка
- Опубліковано 28 чер 2024
- Etsy Store:
www.etsy.com/shop/MadeByFarmC...
Facebook:
/ farmcraft101
Patreon:
/ farmcraft101
Buy me a coffee- or a beer!
www.buymeacoffee.com/farmcraf... - Навчання та стиль
It ought not be a ratio between the surface area of the input valve and diaphragm that regulates the pressure. Were that the case then the output would be a fixed ratio of the pressure in the tank, but a regulator's job is to produce a (nearly) constant output pressure weather the input tank has 200psi in it or 5. I'd suspect that the spring provides the vast majority of the force that the output side works against, with the difference in surface area (And probably leverage from the little lever) ensuring that the ratio of force from the input is "very large". Sufficiently so that the variation of output pressure becomes negligible with expected variations on the input line.
I've never actually taken such a thing apart or done thorough research on these, but that's just a thought that popped out at me while watching this.
Great point. I agree. The spring and the surface area of the diaphragm is really what keeps the output pressure constant. I’m bummed that I missed that in my explanation in the video.
@@7LegSpiders i was going to write exactly this. Good explanation.
@@7LegSpiders - All this is getting rusty now but l remember that Pv=RT (where v=specific volume) is easier and more practical to use.
@@7LegSpiders I was just about to say that act same thing.
your output pressure is governed by the force of the spring pressing back on the diaphragm. the pressure in most propane systems is 14" of water column, or about 1/4 lb. the check in the end is most likely an excess flow vale that closes in the event you cut the line downstream of the regulator. most new ones have this feature and will go into a kind of limp mode if the bottle is opened too quickly but can be reset by shutting the bottle off and slowly reopening it after reliving the downstream pressure
Videos like this teach me things I would have never learned in my regular life. Thank you for taking the time to show this.
Get a Fisher 912 regulator. It’s what was copied to make this piece of non serviceable junk. You can totally take apart a 912 to clean it, repair it, rebuild it, unplug the orifice, and adjust it to supply more or less output pressure.
Thanks. Marked down on wish list.
@@dennisyoung4631 No worries.
Just love people who take things apart....this means that they haven't strayed too far away from childhood...great video.
I was nervously watching you cut the regulator on the band saw and the explosion scared the crap out of me 😂
I had the volume up with earbuds and yeah.....I jumped too. I've cut crimped housings apart before and a few were under considerable spring tension.
The ball bearing also stops the flow in a high flow situation like if the low pressure hose is cut.
On Weber grills if you turn on the burner before turning on the tank it engages a safety device and you get low flame. You can reset it by shutting everything off and starting again. You might try this before changing regulator.
Yep, had to reboot mine many times to get normal pressure.
Yes, I think it is sort of an excess flow valve. Although a true excess flow valve shuts off the gas completely. The propane tank trucks have one inside the tank where the line connects to the tank.
It’s not just Webers.
that safety future is in the tank valve not the bbq
Just opening the lp tank too quickly can cause a low flame on every regulator i have seen... wifey always complains low flame.. i ask did you open slow, always get a yes.. go out, shut off tank wait 30 seconds and open sloooooooowly.. full flame every time. I was told doing it quickly fools the regulator into believe there is a much higher pressure..
The ball bearing can also prevent too high of a flow into the regulator and can sometimes become stuck partially restricting flow. You can reset this by removing the regulator from the tank and letting any gas in the regulator reset the ball valve. You might not have needed a new regulator in the first place.
Newer regulators go into a low flow mode if you have the burners turned on and then turn on the propane tank. It is to prevent lots of gas escaping if there is a leak.
Very interesting, I am a Mech Engineer and I always wondered! I showed the video to my 3 engineer kids and one nurse and they all appreciated it!
Just chuck it all into a Crucible mate and melt it all down 👊🏻😁
Minus the rubber of course👌🏻
Awesome. I love learning how things we take for granted work.
Always learn something with your channel
I replaced my standard 5psi regulator with a 30 psi one from my forge, along with a new grill welded from 1x1/4 flatbar. We're cooking with gas now! LoL I don't dare go above 10 psi, but those extra couple of lbs make a huge difference.
If it's only one pound output, mebbe I run it at seven or eight. 600+f
Quality content. Even though it's a teardown, I'm tempted to point out that this too is what can be considered Right To Repair. It's knowing mechanisms and where to look for problems.
I thought I'd seen some regulators that were rebuildable...
@@ScottKenny1978 - regulators generally are repairable but in El Cheapo applications like this, no.
If I bought it, I should be able to do whatever the heck I want with it including service myself or pay someone I choose to work on my property.
Yeah. You bet. Talk to the farmers who want to access the software on their John Deere tractors to effect their own repairs. Go fly a kite, they're told.
@@andreweppink4498 is that fixing the software, or plugging into the computer to see which sensor is bad?
Thank you: Always like seeing stuff taken apart!!! Your crossectioning made it even better.
Some propane fittings have what is known as an "excess flow valve" If the hose should get cut, or some other catastrophic failure on the high pressure side, the high flow rate causes a small ball or needle valve to close and block flow from the tank. It is usually spring loaded to reset it. This is a safety function, just to prevent a tank from spilling it's guts and flooding the area with flammable gas. I know most modern tanks have this, and I have seen problems where the tank thinks there is excess flow because of connecting a long hose or something, and it will close the valve. Usually, you have to shut off the tank valve, and equalize the pressure to get it to reset, then things will work normally again. If you didn't know about this, it could drive you nuts trying to figure out why your tank is not working. It may be that the check ball you found in the fitting is an excess flow device, designed to trigger if the hose is cut or the regulator diaphragm gets punctured.
By the way, a propane regulator like the one shown works exactly like any other pressure regulator. Like the ones for your oxy-acetylene or air tools.
The housing might be ZAMAK, which is a zinc alloy. Generally zinc and alloying elements of aluminium, magnesium, and copper. If you have some kind of strong acid, you can test it. Zinc will react instantly with acid, aluminum won't because the acid first has to dissolve the aluminum oxide coating. I use muriatic acid to almost instantly clean zinc corrosion off of automotive locks which I rebuild, and they are also made of ZAMAK. Aluminum I believe is tested with an alkali (base), but I haven't had a reason to try that yet.
If you want to quickly test for aluminum vs zinc, swab it with a mild acid such as vinegar. Aluminum won't do anything but zinc will fizzle. Zinc is ridiculously reactive. Also zinc melted about half the temperature of aluminum.
Real funny guy, I spilled my coffee on my leg 🤣...
Totally wasn't expecting that from this video... well done Sir...
I have wondered what what in there for years. Just finished watching you rebuild seals and piston shafts for your bulldozer. Thanks for the know and fun.
Boom, back engineering, you are my hero!!! This is the stuff I did with my friends back in the 60's with electronic parts and basically everything we wanted to know something about. Thank you, I think the trouble is in that primary check valve itself because I get enough fuel for about a hose full as this is one of those small Weber one burner grills. Mahalo bro, this is the kind of videos we need.
Are we not going to talk about the crazy seal scenes 🦭🦭
Concise, informed analysis, thanks.
You got that wrong about the check valve. It is to prevent excess flow in case of a cut or broken gas line. This is an important safety device to prevent large flames from burning the house down. Also if you wheel the tank open on a non pressurized system, that ball will slug and limit flow till it equalizes. If you try to light a burner while slugged, you will never get gas flow except a tiny bypass that is supposed to equalize the system to release the slug.
Back pressure in the regulator is not the reason or concern. Also you lost the little spring that keeps the ball to the open position till it is overpowered by excess flow.
Another point if safety that you missed is that little spring tower on the diaphragm. That is an over pressure relief valve. The way that it works is in case of trash getting between the seat and orifice causing pressure to creep when not in use. The diaphragm will rise higher than in normal operation and the relief will hit on the aluminum casing to open the relief allowing excess pressure to be vented out that tiny hole that you are not supposed to plug. Now go examine it again with this in mind and I bet you will see it.
I replaced my regulator because of low flame, then when that didnt help I learned you open the tank THEN the burner controls... not the other way around. Kinda like it says ON THE GRILL if I had actually taken time to look at it. Darned grill newbies...
Oh well I have an extra regulator now.
It's amazing what we can learn from garbage if we're willing to take the time to try.
Thank you for the effort you made to bring this to us! I have always wondered what they were about...now I know, Poppet valve :)
Should be 11-14" of water column, or 0.5 PSI at the burner. Most LP tanks have a 250PSI pop-off, but there are a lot of old ones out there in the 200PSI. Unless you've got the bottle over full or painted black and in summer sun it'll likely never get near 200 PSI. BTW, those little silver regulators are the cheapest junk out there, but they tend to work fine for years.
I tend to differ. Those silver regulators are junk period. They don't last more then 1 year if used on a regular basis, Most of them leak as well.
Ideally, you buy a good quality regulator and fittings and hose and make your own. lasts 10 times longer without the headaches.
Yep...another of the world's mysteries revealed! Love It and Thank You!
The check valve also prevents spiders from crawling in the orifice.
Thanks for sharing and good luck getting it put back together : )
wow you almost knocked out of my seat (didn't expect that). :p
Love the kaboom! nice video.
thanks for sharing!!
Years ago my regulator crapped out on me so I bought a new one and tore apart the old one much like you did - but was able to put it back together -and it worked !!! I used the new one just to be safe. The problem seemed to be the ballbearing crapped up with carbons in the propane - but yeah - it worked fine !!!
High pressure gas escaping at the connector is also a frost bite hazard.
That check valve is probably a flash arrestor to prevent an explosion from forcing oxygen and heat into the main propane tank. Atmospheric pressure on the diaphragm plus the adjustable spring force equals the regulated gas pressure on the diaphragm; otherwise, the diaphragm moves and opens/closes the needle valve to make these equal. Gas flow to the burners depends upon relative pressure (above atmospheric pressure) since the burners are at atmosperic pressure.
Nice descriptive video, thanks for sharing.
I bought an adjustable pressure regulator off Amazon for my custom 35k BTU pizza oven. I found the standard bbq regulator didn't flow enough. Plus , now when I hook it up to a "rose bud" tip from Harbor Freight I almost have a flamethrower! Man, I burn weeds out of my rocks like you wouldn't believe.!
Simple and clever !
I just threw one of those away. Replaced it with one from my previous grill. Never throw anything away.
I had one in the shop that got me through a surprise failure during our big winter ice storm. Swapped some fittings and was back in business in about 10 mins. Good thing too because there was NOTHING available locally in the local area due to the storm.
My wife used to pick at me for being a hoarder.. until I saved our asses a couple dozen times. Now she is like "do you need this?" before it goes in the garbage :-)
I recently had to replace one that started leaking (slowly) out of the spring chamber. I cut one from a retired grill and spliced it onto the gas line on my current grill. I had to use a hose coupling and clamps because those hoses are staked onto the regulators (serviced as a unit.) Packrats of the world -- unite!
So when are we going to see a working large-scale version of a diaphragm regulator?
Haha. Made out of wood? ;-)
I'm New here but I enjoyed the video greatly. Say hi to Kevin
It's cool that you tried to predict how it worked first.pretty cool
Loved it, thx!
Thanks, long time question is now answered
They used to make regulators with a plastic Black screw off cap and inside was a flat brass screw that you could turn to increase and decrease pressure. Haven't seen one like It in years.
The check valve in the POL connector is the excess flow valve. My weed torch drove me nuts till I learned to crack the cylinder and let the pressure equalize in the regulator. Designed to drop the tank flow to trickle if gas rushes out, say due to a burner being open when the tank is opened.
I found your video as I was wondering how the 11" wc was able to rise the 5 feet to my patio heater. Now I see. The regulator settles after the tank is opened, then when you start the flow for the burner, the flow is what reduces pressure with the regulator filling the void left by that flow like a circulator on a hot water heating system.
Sounds like a pilot operated check valve.
If your grill is not getting up to temperature, turn off the valve on the bottle, unscrew the regulator, re screw it back on, then open your bottle. Some kind of pressure lock.
Well, that was interesting. New sub to the channel. Luv learning about practical, mechanical devices. The outboard motor sold me on subing. I make my 8 year old son watch some of these types of vids.
His favorite is the slingshot channel with George Sprave and Mustie 1.
Entertaining, thank you from me and my son.
The check valve also works to impede the tank from being filled by another tank in line, if you have a multi-tank system.
Hello from Canada
Always tap on the reg and give a bad reg a blast of compressed air in the vent hole while the gas is off and the hose of disconnected.
It'll fix it every time.
Also if you think your gas is low.. the burner holes in the bottom might be rusted closed... Pull the grill out and brush the bottom of the burners if your tank seems full but flame is low.
Ive stripped many of those regulators. There is a bit of yellow brass and some cast aluminum. lts micro-scrapping.
I just had a problem with a regulator like this one. In my case it was a propane camping shower. The first sign of trouble was sooty smoke coming out the exhaust, then the shower wouldn't heat water. In my case the problem was the regulator started putting out too much pressure. The soot was because too much gas was flowing to burn cleanly. The second failure mode (not heating water) was because the shower has an electric gas valve, and the electric gas valve couldn't operate when the pressure was too high (maybe a safety feature.) Interesting that whatever was failing was progressively failing and the pressure was rising over a few months. A new barbecue regulator fixed the problem - after trying new batteries, new tank, debugging the electrical wiring, etc...
This is Gold.
Interesting Thanks
Pressure regulators have three pressure areas. high (in up to 200 psi), low (out .4 psi) and reference (atmosphere). The diaphragm is between low and ref and the spring force defines the pressure difference between low and ref. The diaphragm controls the valve. Some relations: in/out = 200/.4 = ~500 and diaphragm/valve area (levered): ~+2000. This is not to regulate but to overcome the highest pressure possible (full, hot within specs). Only low minus ref is regulating.
The back side of the membrane has to be vented to the outside in part because otherwise changes of the temperature of the entire regulator would affect the amount / pressure of gas downstream.
That tiny hole valve mechanism at the short end of the white lever is identical to the valve in some toilet mechanisms, where a float in the cistern pushes the long end of the white lever and stops the water filling the cistern. I think it's some kind of pneumatic mechanism.
On our Weber grill oil from the oil in the propane caused reduced output of propane. Take the regulator off and removing the orifice and draining the oil out, improved performance considerably.
The same principle applies to the lift axle pressure regulator for truck, except you can adjust that one.
Schmutze? Awesome demo, thanks!
I’ve had trouble like this before, the ball is there to prevent “free flow” in the event there is a rupture in the rubber hose or the bbq valve is left on. If you open the valve on your bbq before opening the valve on the propane tank this ball will seat itself and only allow minimal flow around it, this will cause a small flame, all you have to do to reset the ball is to shut both valves off, at this time you will hear a “click” this is the ball moving off it’s seat, then turn the propane tank on first and then the bbq valve. There was likely nothing wrong with the regulator it was just the sequence in which the valves were turned on or maybe the bbq valve was turned on too soon after the propane tank, you should wait a couple of seconds before you turn on the bbq valve to allow the pressure y equalize across the ball, hope this helps.
I think most regulators, or at least RV regs, have a fail safe built in so the valve shuts if too much gas flows out. I've seen it mentioned in a few places if too much gas is used, it could trip that mechanism. I wonder if that is built into the normal operation of that valve and check ball or if that's another part on a different reg.
Yes, I was thinking that the check ball might have a sealing surface in the forward direction. If so, a large flow would shut it when the aerodynamic force on the ball overcomes the spring.
I think that little valve is just rocker arm valve that sorta does the job of a poppet valve.
There is one part you overlook and that is The female fitting the large piece that screws onto the tank that is plastic I've had a few of those were out and there's a little needle up in there that compresses the valve on the tank if that plastic is worn out you have no pressure to compress that needle that's inside the tank valve I hope this turned out right.
I haven't personally seen a regulator go to a failure mode of low pressure/low flow. A friend's grill regulator failed high, so when she turned on the gas, it made a rushing and almost trumpet-like noise. Mine failed high while the grill was lit, burning off the residue after the burgers were lifted - when we went back out 15 minute later, the grill was WAY too hot. It incinerated all the grease on the grate to white ash, broke the thermometer in the lid,l (pegged somewhere north of 600°, never came back down), and the stainless firebox was permanently discolored dark blueish-purple.
The body is almost certainly zinc. Makes great sacrificial annode for various projects.
I think it looks like zinc too. A few drops of vinegar would tell if it's zinc or aluminum (well vinegar would sizzle on magnesium too but it's for sure not magnesium).
What would make a good cathode to match the sacrificial annode?
@@mikebond6328 Steel... hehe
My uncle was a propane gas truck driver. He said that propane/butane has a scent added to it to make sure you smell it when leaking. I watched him spray carburetor cleaner in the low pressure side, and then blow back through it with the air compressor. He said that the gas would leave the residue in the regulator. He was really much more intelligent than his fifth grade dropout rate gave credit for. P.S. He said that if your lighter on the grill used a battery, you should not replace it . Light it with a extended lighter. According to him the second to third battery and the zinc in the regulator will cause a reaction that will cut its life short.
Awesome, I've always wondered how they worked. I'm guessing that the pressure adjustable ones compress the large spring to change how much pressure is being used??
Yes. The force of the spring against the diaphragm is really what regulates the output pressure.
Hmmm, my grills flame seem lower lately and I was thinking I may have to get a new regulator but maybe a shot of air to clean out that mini membrane will do it.
If I had the drive I would test the pressure then shoot a few pounds through and retest but I don't have a channel to feed (lack of motivation).
It can also be the burner's holes. Either from corrosion or food/debris.
Pull out the grill and clean the burners.
Then, with the gas ON, give the reg a good couple taps..Turn the tank off and grill ON, and tap it again. after disconnect the reg and give the vent hole a small shot of compressed air a couple times.
Remember to turn your Grill's knob to OFF before reconnecting the reg and giving it a go to avoid the big WHOOSH.
Here’s a video you need to do disassemble A scuba tank compressor .what kind of an air compressor does it take to fill scuba tanks because the pressures are in the thousand pound per square inch ?and I am curious how that’s done. Especially with an electric motor that only produces 5 hp
That other smaller spring on the diaphragm is to release excess pressure out through that "hole that is not to be blocked" should your main "needle" valve fail to seat.
I was thinking that this single stage regulator was cheaping out, but then realized that the fuel in the tank is in a liquid form. For a given tank temperature, the vapor pressure will remain constant, so a single stage regular works just fine. For high pressure gas cylinders, you need a two stage regulator to maintain a near-constant set pressure as the bottle depletes and the input pressure drops.
I purchased a new Weber a couple of years ago and when I went to my local propane/grill store the salesman/owner told me in a sarcastic way that don’t come back complaining about your grill not lighting up, that it’s because the regulator which was redesigned due to some new regulations which he thought was unesesary binds. And he was right when it happens which it dos on occasion I give it a bang with my grill brush and problem solved. This happened on two Weber grills.
So, as Richard Stewart mentioned, the sequence of entering gas pressure can keep low pressure, had to re- boot mine many times because of this, not knowing there was a safety device installed for this, but assuming after a while, a simple mechanical fail safe procedure was built into the system. The only things that could have gone wrong with yours: leak/ hole/ crack, damaged/ bent / broken / warped, or weak components, corrosion or wear not allowing proper movement, obstruction, ( gas, or atmospheric pressure) or as mentioned above, too much, or not enough gas at a given location. One spider, insect, mud dauber, drop of moisture with corrosion occuring, or ice, can cause a short or long term problem .
Simple, if you turn on the gas cylinder, with the BBQ burners turned off, gas fills the regulator and the feed line to the BBQ, once that pressure builds to the given output pressure the diaphragm in the regulator is pushed out, against the large spring, pulling the rocker arm with it. Then due to the mechanical advantage, the seal on the rocker seals off the tank preventing more gas from flowing from the tank.
If that seal fails, there is another valve, a safety valve, in the middle of the diaphragm that gets pushed open, purely by gas pressure, letting gas escape past the diaphragm and out the small hole.
When you turn on the burners on your BBQ, the pressure in the feed tube and regulator drop, the spring pushes the diaphragm back down, and the valve on the rocker arm opens leaving gas flow. When gas is flowing through the system from the tank to an open burner or leaky seal, etc on the low pressure side of the system, the specific force of the spring acting on the diaphragm, regulates how much the rocker arm valve opens. So as the pressure in your gas tank runs lower, and lower, as you use up the gas to cook your hot dogs, the valve opens more and more as the pressure on both sides of the regulator equalise.
The ball bearing valve in the tank connector is there as another safety, so if the regulator fails or is snapped off the brass section, the ball will be pushed out into the brass seat, by full tank pressure, and stop a major gas leak, giving you time to turn off the gas tank manually.
Interesting !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wonder what part is the over-pressure setting generator? It must be in that diaphragm/spring/lever, but nothing looks like it would be an over-pressure latch.
I bet if you save a pile of bad regulators… You’d have enough to eventually make a nice pair of seal slippers.
I think a needle valve would be overkill and unnecessarily expensive. They have a wide adjustment range, which isn't necessary here. The flow rate is low and can be partly regulated by the orifice size. The inherent springiness of the rubber seal will give some proportional control, but even if it doesn't, there's probably enough reservoir in the hose to smooth out the impulses from the bang-bang on/off control and give pretty even flow at the burner.
Roughly .5 psi output on average depending on temp tanks will be at 0-200psi when full 200 is extreme high and it would be at least 100 degrees outside. on average they run 50-70 psi at -44 it will stop boiling therefore no pressure However it dose not need to be -44 outside for this because as propane boils it gets colder the more it boils the colder it gets the faster it freezes. this also helps in high temps as the propane is being used it actually cools the tank
Thanks I just fixed a freinds table top heater by clearing the vent hole in the regulator
Can you do another video cutting the connector into. There is another safety valve in there that locks out under high flow.
Oh, I spoke too soon.
Making a guess I would say the diaphragm is at least 20 times that of the small
orifice so the area ratio is approximately 400 : 1 Also the leaver is maybe 8 : 1
I would expect a force ratio of 3,200
The diaphragm is usually what goes bad after they become too weak and stretched out. it doesn't take much. i'm currently looking for a place to buy a new one for my propane generator. the regulator is $200 but the diaphragm is probably a $20 part.
Always fun guessing how some item of equipment works and then take it apart to up to see if your idea is correct. Our grill regulator failed last year after many years so I had to replace it. The frame is about the only original part left of the grill. I did not have a way to disassemble the regulator, nice being able to see how it works.
That is why I like Charcoal BBQs
From this day forward, I'll now be thinking about something other than what's "on" the grill.
*I never thought I'd hear myself say something like that.* Good stuff.
What I would like to know is how they manufacture these. You had to cut it apart, but how do they make it o that it is a sealed unit? Was it welded? Glued? Hmmm.
Hi. Is there a recommended time frame the consumer should replace a grill regulator? Thank you.
Isn't the check valve on the HP side there to avoid the flame to run back into the bottle??? It closes when there is no flow. And at high flow, the flame won't move fast enough reverse.
I’ve bought two for my big grill and still not enough pressure, guess I’m going to have to buy something more expensive online. Wish we could adjust those.
See Tom Bryant's reply
My came with a little hole on the top is that normal!? When I plug it to the propane it throw some pressure air out !pls let me know thank uou
I came here for the BBQ tips. Maybe next vid?
Mom always says Schmutz. I smiled when u said that.
Looks somewhat like the same internals on a scuba second stage regulator
Looks like your vent hole was restricted somewhat and all it needed was to be cleaned up a little?