Відео

Good question. There are really 2 speed ratings for the archery industry that are common. ATA Spec: 70 lbs. of peak draw (+/- 0.2 lbs.), 30" of draw length, 350 grain arrows IBO Spec: 80 lbs. of peak draw (+/- 2.0 lbs.), Maximum draw length, 400 grain arrow. ATA spec is commonly considered a much better spec because it only allows for a maximum of 70.2 lbs. of peak draw weight and 30" of draw. IBO will actually allow up to 82 lbs. of peak draw weight, and the maximum draw length for the bow (often 31-32" for non long-draw bows). IBO speeds are typically quite a bit higher and much less realistic than true ATA spec. :)

It's a great point, and you are directionally correct. Inch Lbs. most often refers to torque (that is, force applied around an axis), however, it is also allowable for "work" (you can see this in some engineering applications). Foot-Lbs. is really applied to torque measurements. Ultimately, I could go to the trouble of converting my measurements to work (J, kJ, etc.), but its just easier for me to call it "inch pounds" since my setup is using a pound-based scale and 1/4" sampling increments. So long as my method is similar across all bows, it will give us a "unit" that we can compare to speeds to come up with a useful description of efficiency. :)

I guess it really depends on the context. Good engineering practice should avoid ambiguity. Ft-lb could also be a work measurement. 1 in-lb (work) is approximately 0.112 Joules, minimal work to be explicit in the data you are presenting. I liked the technical parts of your video, really well put together. I’ll be on the lookout for more. Thanks again.

I am definitely looking to get a Darton bow in for review soon!

My understanding is that PSE is advocating that you should measure the dynamic brace height from the end of the cam at full draw. I am measuring from the last point that the string is actually touching the cam. I argue that mine is the more important way to measure it, because the point where the string is actually applying force/supported by the cam, is the true "dynamic brace height". Notably, the Hoyt RX-9 Ultra (for example) actually has the best dynamic brace height we've measured so far this year (it grows fairly substantially).

I mentioned in the review that we had the bow with the medium cams. Those max out at 30" draw.

@ApexArchery so the standard cam. Not the LD cam

I thought the same thing. Interesting that other manufacturers are actually doing more to provide a longer dynamic brace height than the people marketing the spec! Anecdotally, I achieve my highest ever Vegas round score out of the RX-7 Ultra that I had a few seasons ago. I'm curious how much that dynamic brace height may have played a role...

No website. That type of analysis will be part of our "wrap up" video once we are done with several more longer ATA bows.

Thanks for feedback! I put a ton of effort into these - hope people enjoy them!

It's a great idea. My plan now is to come up with overall efficiency for comparison's sake when we do our "roundup" after all the bows are in.

@ it would be very interesting if the bows that are less efficient generate more noise!

@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery certainly noise is one place that energy would "leak" out of the system, but its also probable that noise/vibration dampening would blunt shot volume independent of efficiency. It's interesting that the two loudest bows on test so far have not had limb dampeners 👀 I think some companies are abandoning limb dampeners in order to shed any weight that might reduce arrow speeds.

@ oh absolutely, I have been curious about if you can add arrow weight while taking off limb dampeners and speed nocks on the string and end up with the same or similar noise and similar vibration level while transmitting more energy to the arrow rather than energy to move said weight. I am planning on doing an experiment or two with this on my channel.

Right now, I am pretty focused on the longer ATA bows on the market, as these are what I prefer to shoot. But perhaps when I am wrapped with that series I might do some shorter bows!

What kind of bow do you have?

@ApexArchery No Cam HTX. I know the specs on it but you go a step further. Really interesting stuff as to why these measurements are relevant

In terms of at-home tuning features, I believe this one takes the cake!

Darton Sequel XT squared has more tuning options

@@josephfolsom2030 We are excited to get the Darton Sequel 33 2 in for testing! Looks like a terrific bow. That said, I don't believe it's accurate to say that it has more tuning options. Similar to the Bowtech, they have a system for affecting the timing, which is really very neat. They also have a system for tuning paper tears - although it involves altering the cant of the entire limb assembly rather than tuning the cams on the axle. They also offer dedicated mods that will extract a bit more speed from the bow. However, the Bowtech also offers the GripLock to alter grip angle. I think these bow are actually remarkably similar in terms of tunability and adjustability. The Darton offers a bit more adjustability with letoff, and Bowtech offers slightly more elegant tuning and grip options.

@ I wrote my comment before you showed the timing adjustment on the Bowtech. I was totally unaware that they had that feature. My bad

@@josephfolsom2030 No worries at all! Just here to provide information :) I really like what Darton appears to be doing with the Sequel 2's this year. Can't wait to have one in for testing.

I have another bow review being edited right now, and another bow in for testing!

@ApexArchery You're the man.... Good Job

Yep! Very similar overall construction and specs to the SS34. Includes all the latest features that bowtech has developed, plus the 2 cam system for optimized draw length ranges.

yep - our plan this year is to get through all of the major flagship bows (I think I have about 6-7 more to go!) and then do a sit down where we look at all the important spec's side by side. This will include examination of draw force curves and overall efficiency of the system.

thank you for saying it! a ton of effort goes into these and I am glad you and others are finding value. Keep your eyes out because I am publishing 2 more reviews in the next 2 days, and we have another bow in for testing right now.

That's really kind of you to say! I try hard to be as objective and repeatable as possible in all my measurements, and a ton of effort goes into each review. Really glad you're enjoying them!

Overall, I really liked the bow. I'd be curious to get one in for longer term testing to see if the asymmetric nocking height and the grip positioning help with aiming and overall performance.

I'll be frank, it's a little complicated and hard to explain. In essence, you have the pivot point of the bow (let's call this pivot point #1 - the point where the limbs last touch the limb pocket) and the pivot point of the grip (pivot point #2). The greater the distance (reflex) between these pivot points, the more unstable the system becomes, and therefore more sensitive to non-ideal force inputs. Additionally, a more reflexed bow will place more system mass (riser, limb pockets, etc.) further laterally from the centerline of the optimal arrow path. This creates a longer arch and more inertia as the bow might seek to return to center upon firing (by rotating around the grip), meaning that torque inputs may have more impact on actual arrow flight as the shot is released and the bow is putting energy into the arrow. Having said that, I do think there are other factors at play with regards to accuracy. I suspect that the conventional reasons why higher brace heights = more accuracy are incorrect, and it has more to do with what PSE's engineers are saying about longer dynamic brace height providing a longer lever to resist torsional forces at the grip. Especially since bows with longer brace heights will have longer dynamic brace heights (all things being equal).

@ thanks for the response! I’m not sure I understand why the point where the limbs contact the limb pocket is considered a pivot point (other than this is where the limbs are no longer supported and therefore start to deflect but this is not relevant to hand torque). The reaction torque to hand torque is happening by way of the string creating a side load on the cam. The distance between where the string contacts the cam and the grip (dynamic brace height) dictates how much angle you get between the string and the cam track for a given amount of hand torque. As for the mass being further from the axis of the grip with higher reflex, wouldn’t that increase the mass moment of inertia and actually make the bow react slower therefore decreasing the impact to the arrow flight? Either way I think this would be a negligible impact? I hear people talk about reflex and I just suspect it used to be something people looked at because it was correlated with dynamic brace height but isn’t directly related to hand torque forgiveness (maybe?). I could be wrong, but ive never seen it explained with physics and math that proves it. Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to see if I’m missing something with my opinion that it doesn’t actually matter :)

Haha - I think the mohawk is already officially trademarked in the world of archery reviews.

Typically, the answer is yes. Bows often deliver peak efficiency when the limb bolts are fully tightened. However, the efficiency loss will be minimal, and I wouldn't be concerned about the minimal resulting speed loss. Much better to tune the bow to a poundage that is comfortable and safe (rotator cuff tendinitis sucks - I can speak from direct experience on that.) I shot a full year with a 71# peak weight bow dialed down to 65 #. My arrows were still zippin'.

You thinking what I’m thinking Zackcook? Getting an 80# Mach 33 because those ec2 cams sooooo smoooth?

Don't worry - review of the Hoyt lineup and most other manufacturers are coming.

@ Good luck Hombre!

@@josephblake7314 The Hoyt RX-9 Ultra review is up.

Thank you for the info and confirmation! I came away generally liking the bow. They may be missing some of the added features of other manufacturers, but it certainly includes everything you need in a modern bow, and I am intrigued by the grip positioning. I would be curious to get one in for a longer-term review where I could fully set it up with peep, sight, and stabilizers to better understand how it aims.

Would love to! I was also considering doing their Hunter 33.

Yep - no argument that the PSE is neither the fastest, nor the most efficient bow we've tested. That said, the platform is reasonably light weight and somewhat less expensive than other carbon platforms. It also offers a very smooth draw cycle and tons of draw length and let off adjustability which can be modified at home. I suspect we are going to start seeing lots of manufacturers move to more individualized draw/let off mods to eek out those final 6-7 fps.

@@ApexArchery I love my PSE. Those numbers just look a little disappointing.

Thank you! Yep, I was super excited to get my hands on one for a review. Honestly a solid performer, and I'd love to spend more time with it to see how it aims and shoots when it is built up with all the accessories.

Yep, totally agree that that is not how PSE is measuring - but I disagree with that method. :) To my mind, the last point where the string is actually applying force to either the walls or the bottom of the cam channel would be what matters and should be counted as the dynamic brace height.

Understand and thanks for the reviews. However, according to PSE, dynamic Brace is a different measurement they used years ago with the XForce limbs. It’s the measured brace height when the arrow leaves the string. But you’d need a high speed camera like they used to get that measurement. Not sure if you’ve seen their video on it. It’s on UA-cam somewhere. Here it is ua-cam.com/video/a6Cvai-HY9U/v-deo.htmlsi=LdiSSK9jYdSL4OyL

@@adamiv17 Thanks for sharing! I will check it out!

Great question. Under normal circumstances (when I am really shooting my bow) I do attempt to control the trigger activation process to create a surprise shot. Often when I am filming for bow reviews, I am simply punching to trigger because I am paying attention to other factors (feeling of the shot, volume, speed, etc.)

Not sure - but Bear Creek Archery carries Darton so I will ask when I am back in the shop tomorrow!

👀 keep your eyes out for a new bow review in the next few days from a brand we didn't get to test last year! Thank you for the positive comments! great to be back and testing

Thank you! I have about 12 lined up for this season - going to start charging through them as quickly as I can!

Thanks for the positive comment! Its a lot of effort to make these reviews - although I love the chance to shoot so many bows.

We test all the bows at 70 lb. of peak draw weight, and speed testing is done with a 350 grain arrow (ATA spec.)